The Complete Pacific Jazz Joe Pass Quartet Sessions
Dan Adler
Quartet Sessions" for sale online.
Unfortunately, it looks like it's missing Sounds of Synanon and
Simplicity:
http://www.mosaicrecords.com/DisplaySelectionDetail.asp?SelectionID=1015
Dan Adler
> I just found a new 5-CD set: "The Complete Pacific Jazz Joe Pass
> Quartet Sessions" for sale online.
>
> Unfortunately, it looks like it's missing Sounds of Synanon and
> Simplicity:
>
> http://www.mosaicrecords.com/DisplaySelectionDetail.asp?SelectionID=1015
>
[knock, knock], anybody home? This is only the most important reissue
in the history of jazz guitar [maybe I should say something
controversial].
Michael Ellenberger
"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
news:820e87.011018...@posting.google.com...
Does that make it a 3 CD set?
Mike
thomas
> Quartet Sessions" for sale online.
>
> Unfortunately, it looks like it's missing Sounds of Synanon and
> Simplicity:
It's also missing the album of Rolling Stones songs and some other
studio stuff with Groove Homes and others. You missed the operative
word "quartet" sessions. The missing sessions were not quartets.
The good news is that they included the album of Hank Williams
covers. Not because anyone wants to hear it, but because this is
the "complete" quartet sessions.
There is some great music here. Catch Me and For Django are
essential albums. Much of the rest is enjoyable and competent
jazz.
But I don't need a 5CD set that costs $80. If they'd just
put Catch Me and For Django out as single CDs that would
enough for just about anyone who's not a total JP fanatic.
Brian Wood
Brian Wood
sgcim
This is undoubtedly the best JP available, but I have slight
reservations about JP's rhythmic feel on his single-note lines. It's
definitely more pronounced in his Pablo stuff than it is in his early
stuff, but I was surprised to hear it on a cut of "For Django" also.
What I'm talking about is a certain stiffness to his rhythmic feel
than, say, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow(his better work) and Wes had. This
could have come from his early influences, Django, and Les Paul, who
were basically swing players, while Raney, Farlow and Wes were
boppers.
This isn't meant as a put down of JP, obviously one of the greats,
but just a matter of personal preference. A good example of something
like this is the record Johnny Smith made with Art Van Damme. JS, like
JP, is also one of the greats and one of my favorites, but if you hear
his 8th note lines next to the vibes player on the record, JS sounds
stiffer in comparison. Also on the stuff from the 60s he did with Hank
Jones, when HJ follows JS, it's a completely different rhythmic
conception than JS'.
Does this ring a bell with anyone?
Bob Russell
> You should have put Ted Nugent somewhere in the title of your thread.
> Brian Wood
Joe Pass? He's OK, but he's certainly no Ted Nugent. There, maybe that'll do
it.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.uncwil.edu/people/russellr
Brian Wood
play "Wang Dang Sweet Poontang?" I think not.
Brian Wood
"Bob Russell" <bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Bob Russell
> Sure, Joe could blow bebop lines over complex chord changes, but could he
> play "Wang Dang Sweet Poontang?" I think not.
> Brian Wood
Wasn't that another of the unreleased quartet sessions? "Pass the Nuge"?
Thom j.
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Dan Adler
> This is undoubtedly the best JP available, but I have slight
> reservations about JP's rhythmic feel on his single-note lines. It's
> definitely more pronounced in his Pablo stuff than it is in his early
> stuff, but I was surprised to hear it on a cut of "For Django" also.
> What I'm talking about is a certain stiffness to his rhythmic feel
> than, say, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow(his better work) and Wes had. This
> could have come from his early influences, Django, and Les Paul, who
> were basically swing players, while Raney, Farlow and Wes were
> boppers.
> This isn't meant as a put down of JP, obviously one of the greats,
> but just a matter of personal preference. A good example of something
> like this is the record Johnny Smith made with Art Van Damme. JS, like
> JP, is also one of the greats and one of my favorites, but if you hear
> his 8th note lines next to the vibes player on the record, JS sounds
> stiffer in comparison. Also on the stuff from the 60s he did with Hank
> Jones, when HJ follows JS, it's a completely different rhythmic
> conception than JS'.
> Does this ring a bell with anyone?
I read your post a few time over hoping to find a smiley or something
indicating that you're joking, but it looks like you're serious. Joe
Pass' bebop time feel and technique on the PJ recordings (as well as
later up to and including "Intercontinental") is to me the most
amazing of any guitarist ever.
You might also enjoy reading similar commentary from Pat Metheny on
his Q&A part of his site (search for joe pass or for django). Although
Joe recorded tons of great stuff after 1973, none of it hits me on the
same emotional level as his PJ and MPS stuff. I guess how you react to
his time feel depends a lot on how strongly you are attracted to
people who play "deep in the time", which I am. I love Raney and
Farlow but they don't play deep in the time. Wes and Jim Hall do, as
do Benson and the two Pats, and, to me, pre-Pablo Joe Pass is the
leader of that school of time.
By the way, I just got this compilation in the mail yesterday (no
traces of white powder), so I will write a separate review after I
listen to all of it.
sgcim
Well, I do like his PJ stuff and Intercontinental better than the
later stuff, but I have to admit that I was really looking forward to
hearing what I thought was the "other Joe Pass" when I bought the
"Live at ? (I forgot the club)which had Larry Bunker on it and was
recorded around 1971.Unfortunately, for me, it wasn't what i thought
it would be.
Then I found "Night and Day" from "For Django" on a compilation CD
and thought for sure this was going to be that "religious experience"
I was hoping for, but I was again disappointed to hear a lot more of
that rhythmic conception there than I thought there would be.
But I'm an eternal optimist, I haven't heard "Catch Me" or
"Simplicity" or the rest of the "For Django" LP, so maybe that's the
ticket.
thomas
> reservations about JP's rhythmic feel on his single-note lines. It's
> definitely more pronounced in his Pablo stuff than it is in his early
> stuff, but I was surprised to hear it on a cut of "For Django" also.
> What I'm talking about is a certain stiffness to his rhythmic feel
> than, say, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow(his better work) and Wes had. This
> could have come from his early influences, Django, and Les Paul, who
> were basically swing players, while Raney, Farlow and Wes were
> boppers.
> This isn't meant as a put down of JP, obviously one of the greats,
> but just a matter of personal preference. A good example of something
> like this is the record Johnny Smith made with Art Van Damme. JS, like
> JP, is also one of the greats and one of my favorites, but if you hear
> his 8th note lines next to the vibes player on the record, JS sounds
> stiffer in comparison. Also on the stuff from the 60s he did with Hank
> Jones, when HJ follows JS, it's a completely different rhythmic
> conception than JS'.
> Does this ring a bell with anyone?
I hear it. Joe is more swing-era oriented in his sense of swing.
I wouldn't call it stiffness. It's just a different approach to
swing eighths.
pmfan57
on the Pacific jazz stuff. The Johnny Smith analogy is particularly
galling since JS had an almost country on-the-beat feel, almost the
opposite of Joe's. Check out the live cuts of Joe in black and white
(playing a Fender Jaguar) on the Genius of Joe Pass video. Pure bebop
perfection.
"For Django" is available as a reasonably priced import, or at least
it was last year. Stones Jazz has some great playing by Pass and the
music hardly sounds anything like the Stones music, with the big band
arrangements disguising the music almost completely.
Dan Adler
Joe,
I have to ask, does PMFAN57 stand for Pat Metheny Fan, Pat Martino
Fan, or Pneumatic Motor Fan?
Dan Adler
I bought this 5-CD set ($80), and listened to all of it. Here is the
executive summary:
1. If you are an early-Joe Pass fanatic (like me) - buy it.
2. If you have a budget surplus - buy it.
3. If you don't own any of the following on CD: "For Django", "Joy
Spring", "Catch Me" - buy it. You need to own those CD's and this set
gives you all of them plus lots of other stuff. If you're going to
transcribe any Joe Pass you must have these CD's.
4. If you own all of the above, and have been searching for the Les
McCann session for a long time - buy it. This session alone is worth
it. Joe's solos on "Chicken Shack", "Grooveyard", "Work Song" and
others are great.
5. If you own all of these CD's separately, then there is not enough
valuable new stuff in this collection to buy it.
In terms of previously unpublished material I was really disappointed.
Most of the out-takes have pretty horrible goof ups on them which make
them annoying to listen to, and they are interspersed among the
originals. There are some gems, but for the most part you can see why
Dick Bock chose not to include them in the original records. I was
especially hoping to find gems in the unreleased takes from the "For
Django" session - but I didn't. There is an alternate take of
"Limehouse Blues" which is not as good as the released one and there
is "Everything I love" which is good. That album, as released, was
such a milepost, as close to perfection as any jazz album can be.
Some of the material on CD 3, like some acoustic 12-string stuff, is
downright annoying, and I couldn't listen to some of it.
To top it off, the included the same unpublished material (from the
"Joy Spring" sessions), on two of the CD's. What's the thinking there?
The producer of this set is Michael Cuscuna, whose name sounds
familiar (from where?). But he obviously is not up to the job. For one
thing, he makes a stupid comment on the liner notes that "Simplicity"
was not included because it "has very little jazz content". Doh! That
record only has some of the best Joe Pass solos ever, such as "Tis
Autumn", "Nobody Else", The Jobim tune - in fact every note on that
record is a gem, in contrast to some of the acoustic 12-string stuff
they did choose to include. Even the Stones Jazz album would be better
than that. At least on the Stones album Joe has a great sound and big
band, and his chord solo on "playing with fire" was a masterpiece as I
recall.
Finally, I can't understand the choice not to reissue "Sounds of
Synanon". I think that may be one of my favorite jazz albums ever. The
original writing, the arrangements, the interplay, the trombone,
trumpet and piano solos are all unbelievable, and Joe Pass does some
of his most magical work ever. Just the opening of CED is a
masterpiece in itself.
Greg clayton
I can't believe Cusuna's comment on Simplicity.
He must be taking someones word for it and has never listened to it. He's
a great jazz reissue guy and has been for 30 plus years but goofed on this
one.
It's unbelieveable to me that no one has ever reissued
Synanon as well .
greg c
thomas
> familiar (from where?). But he obviously is not up to the job.
He used to run Blue Note's reissue program. Now he runs Mosaic.
I agree with all your criticisms, but Cuscuna is definitely up
to the job. He's just not perfect.
John Graham
> > familiar (from where?).
Wasn't Michael Cuscuna a late-night underground rock disc jockey on
WABC-FM or WNEW-FM out of New York City in the late 1960s and early
1970s?
Are "Sounds of Synanon" and "Catch Me" available on CD anywhere?
John
sgcim
Finally someone agrees with me! I plan to write a whole diatribe about
this, indicting such sacred cows as Geo. Benson, but I'm late for a
gig, but I'll be back.
Dan Adler
>
> Are "Sounds of Synanon" and "Catch Me" available on CD anywhere?
>
> John
"Catch Me" is available on CD. Synanon was never reissued on CD as far
as I know. Two or three cuts were put on a "Best of Joe Pass"
compilation from Blue Note, so that's a good place to hear some
excerpts.
sgcim
I wasn't equating Pass' time feel with Johnny Smith's, they're
obviously `very different from each other. I was just pointing out
how, even though Smith didn't sound as boppish as the player who
followed him (the vibes player), that doesn't mean Smith (like Pass)
didn't play great jazz lines.
My central point is that, even though many players otherwise are
playing in the style of Parker and Bud Powell, rhythmically they're
not doing the same thing Parker did.
By this I mean that Parker's style consisted of straight 8ths
rather than the uneven 8ths of the Swing period that Pass used. This
was pointed out to me when I studied with a student of Jimmy Raney's,
who said that Raney would sing out jazz lines as he wrote them out for
him and make a special point of notating the accents and slurs as well
as the notes. Since Raney is generally recognized by most musicians as
the best exponent of Bird on the guitar, his comments on the subject
are especially pertinent.
He said that many players misinterpret Bird and play uneven 8ths,
when Parker actually played even 8ths with accents on various upbeats
to obtain that tremendous drive his playing had.
Other guitarists whose rhythmic conception is counter to this are
George Benson (who the earlier poster mentioned) and Chuck Wayne,
whose "sweep" or gliss picking technique influenced a number of his
students, Mark Elf, Carl Barry, and Jack Wilkins.
Brian
Where did you see "Catch Me" on CD? I checked Amazon, and it wasn't listed there.
Thanks,
Brian
Dan Adler
Mine is a japanese reissue, and I don't remember where I got it.
Dan Adler
> I wasn't equating Pass' time feel with Johnny Smith's, they're
> obviously `very different from each other. I was just pointing out
> how, even though Smith didn't sound as boppish as the player who
> followed him (the vibes player), that doesn't mean Smith (like Pass)
> didn't play great jazz lines.
I don't agree with your analysis, but I do agree with your observation
that guitarists do not produce lines with enough accents. If you
listen to pianists like Bud Powell, Oscar Peterson or Bill Evans, or
even Chick Corea or Herbie Hancock, their lines are much more
articulated with accents than a typical guitar line. The two Pat's are
great examples of doing this well on guitar, and to me, early Joe Pass
is as well and of course Wes. I don't see this as being a difference
between swing and bebop feel.
I was in a master class with Mulgrew Miller once and he classified
players he loves as playing "deep in the time". When asked what he
meant by that, he was referring to the way Oscar Peterson plays eighth
notes, especially on slow/medium tempos like the old Gershwin
collection. It's precise, sits right on top of the beat in a
count-basie sort of way, and has tons of accents. Almost no two notes
have the same volume - plus some accented notes are anticipated,
always ahead of the beat, never behind it. To my ears, early Joe Pass
is the closest to this that I have heared on guitar. Especially on
slow numbers such as "summertime", "falling in love with love" (catch
me) and on some of the slow numbers on Simplicity (like "Tis Autumn"
and "Who Can I Turn To"). I find that players that have this ability
to play "deep in the time" are the most exciting for me to listen to
and I never get tired of hearing them, because I think they involve
your whole body in the listening experience, not just your ears and
mind.
Of the players you mentioned, Johnny Smith plays very straight-eighth,
but he doesn't articulate enough for my taste - the result is almost
classical. Same with Raney. I love his playing for its melodic
inventiveness, but I don't think of his jazz time as being very
exciting. Mark Elf I can't listen to at all, he's just nowhere in the
vicinity of the beat.
Mark Kleinhaut
Very interesting observations, Dan. Why do you think the issue of accets
is such a pervasive issue for guitarists? Is it something about the nature
of the instrument or do you think it may have something to do with whether
the lines are concieved in one's mind or the fretboard. By this I mean, is
one playing lines on the guitar (jazz musician who plays guitar, or playing
guitar lines (jazz guitarist).
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales": www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
Dan Adler
> Very interesting observations, Dan. Why do you think the issue of accents
> is such a pervasive issue for guitarists? Is it something about the nature
> of the instrument or do you think it may have something to do with whether
> the lines are concieved in one's mind or the fretboard. By this I mean, is
> one playing lines on the guitar (jazz musician who plays guitar, or playing
> guitar lines (jazz guitarist).
>
>
> --------------------Mark Kleinhaut
Mark,
Interesting that you should respond with a question - you are one of
the few people I have heared lately who is a great articulator on
guitar, so maybe we should ask you, or maybe it's just so obvious to
you...
Anyway, I believe it's part of the complexity of guitar that requires
so much synchronization between the hands. On guitar, attack and decay
are not symmetric. We effect the attack by hitting the note with the
pick, but to control the decay (e.g. to play staccatto) we have to
either mute with the right hand or release with the left hand. That
means that to shape the envelope of a single note requires a complex
series of two-hand synchronization actions involving different muscle
groups.
In contrast, think about Glenn Gould playing a single staccato note.
It's a single action to him that starts and ends with the same muscle
group.
I can prove this to myself very easily. When I play piano myself (with
my very primitive chops) I can swing better on piano than I can on
guitar. So, by practicing something like a 1-2-3-5 pattern for 10
minutes on piano, I can make it sound more convincing than after 20
years of practicing it on guitar (no, I'm not switching...)
Mark Kleinhaut
d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote:
>Mark,
>
>Interesting that you should respond with a question - you are one of
>the few people I have heared lately who is a great articulator on
>guitar, so maybe we should ask you, or maybe it's just so obvious to
>you...
>
I can feel when the line is swinging or when its not and I know when I'm
rhythmically "off", the surefire cure is for me to start singing. We've
talked here about singing quite often, but perhaps its been with emphasis
on finding the pitches. To me, it's about finding the phrases vocally, and
then I just try to imitate my voice with my guitar. Phrasing is all about
rhythm and breathing so the voice just does that very naturally.
>Anyway, I believe it's part of the complexity of guitar that requires
>so much synchronization between the hands. On guitar, attack and decay
>are not symmetric. We effect the attack by hitting the note with the
>pick, but to control the decay (e.g. to play staccatto) we have to
>either mute with the right hand or release with the left hand. That
>means that to shape the envelope of a single note requires a complex
>series of two-hand synchronization actions involving different muscle
>groups.
>
Well, that's true, but piano has the same issue (I almost said problem, but
it's not really). Piano and guitar are considered percussion instruments
for exactly that reason, that sound is created by a striking action. I think
control of the decay is only one part of it and, in fact, the guitar has
more control over the decay than a piano does, what with muting and all.
But the attack on guitar is where it really gets unique because of the two
handed thing...and maybe people focus too much on the right hand technique
when the left hand is just as important with things like pressure, location
within the fret or even glissing into a note like how Wes would finger just
on the edge of the fret wire below where he was going and pull his finger
into centered position just as he plucked the string....man, that creates
some "inflection".
>In contrast, think about Glenn Gould playing a single staccato note.
>It's a single action to him that starts and ends with the same muscle
>group.
>
This is where Kenny Werner's effortless mastery comes in. Ya just have to
do those simple motions to work those muscle groups until it becomes easy.
Then you can move on and worry about other more important things.
>I can prove this to myself very easily. When I play piano myself (with
>my very primitive chops) I can swing better on piano than I can on
>guitar. So, by practicing something like a 1-2-3-5 pattern for 10
>minutes on piano, I can make it sound more convincing than after 20
>years of practicing it on guitar (no, I'm not switching...)
>
That seems like quite an exaggeration, Dan, or at least I hope it is. I
mean, if you can swing a line vocally, whistling or on a piano, then the
mechanics of the guitar should not be at issue. Sure it has it's challenges,
but there are no limitations intrinsic to the instrument that focused practice
can't solve (in lots less time than 20 years). Anyway, all this talk about
technique would be foolish is we didn't acknowledge the supreme factor, that
is; the LINE itself, or musical idea, has to swing in one's mind. The inflections
and articulations are merely the outward symptoms of an inner state of swing.
I don't mean the melodic contour here, because you can do this with just
a C Major scale. What I mean is that a phrase is a mental conception of
any given melodic contour where each and every note, space, and interval
is seen as possessing a specific gravity and direction so that they all work
together, or fit together like puzzle pieces, to create an energized flow.
I don't know if this stream of rambling makes any sense but I'll go ahead
and hit "send" anyway and see what you think.
Michael Ellenberger
JSmith has that almost classical sound to the lines he plays. Among the
players who play in this type of style ( if that's the right word) he's one
of my favorites. I think to get things to sound right on the guitar you
have to not only "play the guitar" but conceive and execute your ideas so
they sound like music. It's no small feat to play the guitar well. It's
easy to get hung up on the mechanics and forget "the sound". Picking all
the notes is not enough. In order to get the kind of expression out of the
instrument that makes it really musical you've got to use techniques other
than just picking because in the end, it's the sound you are after. (hammer
on, pull off, glissando, accents, dynamics etc.).
I don't think accents are really an issue. I think it's more a style
choice. If you work really hard to execute a certain line there may not be
much room to maneuver in terms of expression OR some guys may find this is
an "end". I think this sounds "stiff" to a lot of people (including me). I
like more overt expression blended into the playing. To me this is more
musical. What I always find interesting is if I listened to a bunch of
players who play technically demanding stuff and are considered "tops" and
then by chance contrast them with Wes it's like night and day.
Mike
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
news:820e87.01102...@posting.google.com...
Dan Adler
> >It's a single action to him that starts and ends with the same muscle
> >group.
> >
>
> This is where Kenny Werner's effortless mastery comes in. Ya just have to
> do those simple motions to work those muscle groups until it becomes easy.
> Then you can move on and worry about other more important things.
>
I totally agree with that, but it hasn't gotten easy enough yet to
move on :-)
> That seems like quite an exaggeration, Dan, or at least I hope it is. I
> mean, if you can swing a line vocally, whistling or on a piano, then the
> mechanics of the guitar should not be at issue. Sure it has it's challenges,
> but there are no limitations intrinsic to the instrument that focused practice
> can't solve (in lots less time than 20 years).
Then why are there so few guitarists that are able to do this compared
to other instruments? Is it time to introduce guitarist jokes into
this thread?
By the way, one of the things that I've found useful is playing along
with great pianists on their solos. One of the best ways to do that is
the Oscar Peterson CD-ROM which has his solos both recorded and in
midi and notation so you can play along at a reasonable speed. Even
then, it's not easy!
thomas
I got the jp reissue at Tower a few years ago, for around $20.
I also got the jp reish of Joy Spring there, but it's not as
great as Catch Me.
Mark Kleinhaut
d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote:
>Then why are there so few guitarists that are able to do this compared
>to other instruments? Is it time to introduce guitarist jokes into
>this thread?
Yes. What do you throw to a drowning guitarist? Answer: his amplifier.
>
>By the way, one of the things that I've found useful is playing along
>with great pianists on their solos. One of the best ways to do that is
>the Oscar Peterson CD-ROM which has his solos both recorded and in
>midi and notation so you can play along at a reasonable speed. Even
>then, it's not easy!
>
Well, you probably know from some of my other posts that I've never found
any use for such things, not play alongs or metronomes or anthing of the
kind. I've never played along with CD's either (but I do play while watching
TV and invariably wind up jamming a little bit with some of the soundtracs...good
ear training I think:)
Dan Adler
By the way, on one of his old album covers, I remember seeing a quote
from Tal Farlow saying that he learned to play fast before he learned
to play accurately, and he was working on "giving each note its due
respect".
The way I visualize this is as a long racing track with timing
stations at various points along the track. At each station is
standing someone with a stopwatch and seeing if you arrived on time.
My claim is that most guitarists hit every 3rd or 4th station, meaning
that they calibrate their time to the underlying beat less frequently
than pianists. People that play "deep in the time" calibrate to every
single beat and sometimes to subdivisions of the beats. For me that's
a goal, for others it may not be. I have heared people call this
"stiff". But, I have observed that all of my heros (on all
instruments) have this built-in ability, so it must have to do with
how I like to hear and feel music.
Tom Walls
d...@danadler.com says...
Interesting thread.
> Then why are there so few guitarists that are able to do this compared
> to other instruments?
If you look at guitarists in other genres, I think you'll find that
there's no shortage of players who articulate well. Classical, bluegrass,
blues,flamenco... If there are fewer in jazz, perhaps because the
emphasis has been elsewhere.
Jim Hall, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, Django Rheinhardt: plenty of
articulation there. Of course these guys are all notably
individualistic, and serve as exceptions to the rule. I think bebop
brought harmonic sophistication and speed to the forefront; which is
ironic because Bird was an articulating mofo IMHO.
>Is it time to introduce guitarist jokes into
> this thread?
I wouldn't break out the jokes just yet.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Dan Adler
> I don't think accents are really an issue. I think it's more a style
> choice. If you work really hard to execute a certain line there may not be
> much room to maneuver in terms of expression OR some guys may find this is
> an "end". I think this sounds "stiff" to a lot of people (including me). I
> like more overt expression blended into the playing. To me this is more
> musical. What I always find interesting is if I listened to a bunch of
> players who play technically demanding stuff and are considered "tops" and
> then by chance contrast them with Wes it's like night and day.
>
> Mike
Listen to any Bill Evans solo or Oscar Peterson, and tell me that you
don't hear the accents at ANY tempo. Working "really hard" to play a
line, as you say, is the problem. It has to be easy. Have you ever
heared Oscar Peterson play on "L'Impossible"? It's an impossible tempo
and yet he plays as if he's sipping a cool drink while sunbathing.
That's the goal.
Wes had this in abundance, which is why you are probably attracted to
his playing. Have you ever seen the video where he plays on a British
TV show? He's just sitting there with an ear-to-ear grin and his hands
are playing fast and complex stuff, but he just looks like he's
listening to the music, not playing it. Effortless Mastery.
Dan Adler
> I also got the jp reish of Joy Spring there, but it's not as
> great as Catch Me.
Joy Spring is a great one for transcription. Joe's solo on Relaxin at
Camarillo was the first transcription I ever did, and I still love to
hear and play that solo - it's so free of any cliches. Pure musical
expression.
Paul Sanwald
>
> Then why are there so few guitarists that are able to do this compared
> to other instruments? Is it time to introduce guitarist jokes into
> this thread?
>
you mean swing? maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue, but to my ears
there are lots and lots of guitarists who swing their asses off. I
must be missing something.
--paul
Jonathan Byrd
>
> (but I do play while watching
> TV and invariably wind up jamming a little bit with some of the soundtracs...
My wife came into the living room last night, and caught me with the
Lifetime channel on the TV. She gave me a very suspicious look and I
had to hurriedly explain that I was surfing channels and only stopped
there to jam with a cool vamp I heard.
--
Jonathan Byrd Computer Software Engineering Technology
j...@isu.edu Idaho State University
(208) 282-4256 Pocatello, Idaho USA
Thom j.
fess'up now will'ya? :) haha
"Jonathan Byrd" <j...@isu.edu> wrote in message
news:3BDED328...@isu.edu...
Max Leggett
>>
>> (but I do play while watching
>> TV and invariably wind up jamming a little bit with some of the soundtracs...
>
>My wife came into the living room last night, and caught me with the
>Lifetime channel on the TV. She gave me a very suspicious look and I
>had to hurriedly explain that I was surfing channels and only stopped
>there to jam with a cool vamp I heard.
They have some very good music on the Playboy Channel that you can jam
with.
Dan Adler
> d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote:
> >Is it time to introduce guitarist jokes into this thread?
>
> Yes. What do you throw to a drowning guitarist? Answer: his amplifier.
>
What did Kleinhaut say to his roadie after he finally took his new
multi-effect unit on a gig? "set my phaser on stun".
Mark Kleinhaut
If you're implying that using my effects processor is going lead to me getting
a roadie, then I have only one thing to say: YIPEEEEEE!!!!!!!
Dan Adler
>
> you mean swing? maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue, but to my ears
> there are lots and lots of guitarists who swing their asses off. I
> must be missing something.
>
> --paul
Paul,
Here's a great demonstration:
http://jazzplus.com/jazz/newreleases.asp?id=14770
Watch the 2nd video clip of Chick Corea playing "Monk's Mood"
especially the opening part where he plays right-hand only. Can you
hear/see how he accents?
Even with no left hand and no rhythm section he can make the lines
come alive and jump out to touch you.
Max Leggett
Q. What do you call a roadie without a doughnut in his mouth?
A. Dead.
Jonathan Byrd
>
> They have some very good music on the Playboy Channel that you can jam
> with.
Unless I leave Idaho, I doubt I will ever see the Playboy Channel, or
even BET, on my local cable lineup. We do get the Rodeo Channel, and
the Tearing-Up-The-Forest-With-My-Four-Wheeler Channel.
Michael Ellenberger
> "Michael Ellenberger" <Michael.E...@compaq.com> wrote in message
news:<NAkD7.1082$RL6....@news.cpqcorp.net>...
> > I don't think accents are really an issue. I think it's more a style
> > choice. If you work really hard to execute a certain line there may not
be
> > much room to maneuver in terms of expression OR some guys may find this
is
> > an "end". I think this sounds "stiff" to a lot of people (including
me). I
> > like more overt expression blended into the playing. To me this is more
> > musical. What I always find interesting is if I listened to a bunch of
> > players who play technically demanding stuff and are considered "tops"
and
> > then by chance contrast them with Wes it's like night and day.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Listen to any Bill Evans solo or Oscar Peterson, and tell me that you
> don't hear the accents at ANY tempo. Working "really hard" to play a
> line, as you say, is the problem. It has to be easy.
The greatest players always do everything right :} I was going to that say
that players at some other point in the journey may have there hands full
with just hitting the right notes. I don't really agree with this approach
because I think it's better to play less and be musical. The greats always
make it sound easy.
Have you ever
> heared Oscar Peterson play on "L'Impossible"? It's an impossible tempo
> and yet he plays as if he's sipping a cool drink while sunbathing.
> That's the goal.
Sunbathings not that good for you ;} I think Oscar plays within his
abilities and that makes it sound easy. He's one of my all time favorites.
His abilities are just kind of immence :} One of my favorite Oscar
recordings is live at the Stratford Shakesphere Festival, How High the Moon.
What's "L'Impossible" from? Have you heard "Lester Leaps In" recorded live
at Rockland Palace by Charlie Parker? It's at a breakneck tempo and Charlie
just shreds on the tune. No one else attempts a solo.
>
> Wes had this in abundance, which is why you are probably attracted to
> his playing. Have you ever seen the video where he plays on a British
> TV show? He's just sitting there with an ear-to-ear grin and his hands
> are playing fast and complex stuff, but he just looks like he's
> listening to the music, not playing it. Effortless Mastery.
That's a great video. In fact I remember watching a PBS broadcast of "Jazz
Masters" several years ago. Lots of top people were on this show, Hank
Jones, Jimmy Smith, Burrell, McLaughlin, Metheny, Joe Henderson, Jobim to
name a few. I think Herbie Hancock was MC. They played a video clip of Wes
from the 625 broadcast on this show and it was striking how giant Wes seemed
amongst everyone else.
Mike
Thom j.
Michael Ellenberger
notes. When they play triplets, you hear triplets because of the accents,
when they play 16ths you hear 16ths. When your ideas are strong
rhythmically they tend to sound like something and make sense to people.
The accents really delineate the note groupings. I guessing this is what
Dan is talking about. I don't quite understand why he's making the
generalization about guitarists. I'm not sure I'm ready to get into naming
players...
Mike
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
news:820e87.01103...@posting.google.com...
Paul Sanwald
>
> Watch the 2nd video clip of Chick Corea playing "Monk's Mood"
> especially the opening part where he plays right-hand only. Can you
> hear/see how he accents?
>
> Even with no left hand and no rhythm section he can make the lines
> come alive and jump out to touch you.
>
Man, that's a great clip! I think I see what you are talking about now
dan. I have a little bit of a theory as to why this is, at least
partially. when chick is playing, he's not hitting the key anywhere
near as hard as he can. it seems to me like he's playing right in the
center of his dynamic range, and he can go way up or way down from
there. accenting is easy when you're playing at the center of your
dynamic range.
to use myself as a bad example :), when I listen to myself play, I
feel like I'm hitting the string at the top of my dynamic range,
especially if I'm playing with a drummer. I am of the opinion that I
(and a lot of other guitarists) pick way too hard to get the kind of
articulation that chick gets. this is something that I've been working
on recently, after reading the section in "The Advancing Guitarist" on
dynamics.
--paul
Dan Adler
> dan. I have a little bit of a theory as to why this is, at least
> partially. when chick is playing, he's not hitting the key anywhere
> near as hard as he can. it seems to me like he's playing right in the
> center of his dynamic range, and he can go way up or way down from
> there. accenting is easy when you're playing at the center of your
> dynamic range.
>
Bull's eye. That's the focus of my practice these days... As Kenny
Werner says in Effortless Mastery - it requires a complete relearning
of your technique starting from how you play a single note.
Thom j.
In Chick's clip do you happen to see that it seems that Chick
kinda` rolls his fingers over the keys more then picks-up and
then puts-down? I noticed it even more on the # & - keys.
I just wondered why he used this type technique or atleast it
it looked this way to me on the clip? I am only asking as my
cousin is a concert pianist and use to play with Mutti and he
always draws his hands in a higharch postion with fingers in
a long stretch type configuration.. A curious Thom_j. :)
P.S. I'll also ask my cousin too whenever I can get a hold of
the busy sucker.. :)
"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
news:820e87.011031...@posting.google.com...
Mark Kleinhaut
Bulls Eye is RIght!!! It stands to reason that effective accents depend
on having some dynamic headroom above the average level of attack. Softer
average attack can be practiced and internalized (especially while watching
TV)
DMarkell
(Dan Adler) writes:
>Working "really hard" to play a
>line, as you say, is the problem. It has to be easy. Have you ever
>heared Oscar Peterson play on "L'Impossible"? It's an impossible tempo
>and yet he plays as if he's sipping a cool drink while sunbathing.
>That's the goal.
>
>Wes had this in abundance, which is why you are probably attracted to
>his playing. Have you ever seen the video where he plays on a British
>TV show? He's just sitting there with an ear-to-ear grin and his hands
>are playing fast and complex stuff, but he just looks like he's
>listening to the music, not playing it. Effortless Mastery.
>
>-Dan
>http://danadler.com
>http://danadler.iuma.com
>
Interestingly, in an interview Wes said that for most of his career he was so
tense whenever he'd play octaves that he'd get splitting headaches. It was
somewhat encouraging to hear that he had such obstacles to overcome.
But It's true that on that video he looks blissful, sometimes seemingly amazed
at what was coming out of his fingers!
Denis Markell
Dan Adler
> Softer average attack can be practiced and internalized (especially while watching TV)
Mark,
Is this some kind of product placement thing where you are required to
mention TV in every post about practicing? I can't take the suspense,
do tell us what you watch and what brand TV you use, also, do you hold
the remote the way Jimmy Bruno holds a cigarette, and can you change
channels in the middle of 'donna lee'?
Seriously, though, I've found that one key to softer average attack is
to reduce the distance the pick travels before and after it hits a
note.
Mark Kleinhaut
d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote:
>"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3be00d18$1...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com>...
>> Softer average attack can be practiced and internalized (especially while
watching
>TV)
>
>Mark,
>
>Is this some kind of product placement thing where you are required to
>mention TV in every post about practicing? I can't take the suspense,
>do tell us what you watch and what brand TV you use, also, do you hold
>the remote the way Jimmy Bruno holds a cigarette, and can you change
>channels in the middle of 'donna lee'?
I have a Samsung Tantus flat screen high definition digital TV. My two favorite
shows are Star Trek and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I don't put the remote
in my mouth like JB's cigs (that would be gross), but I can change the channel
via remote using my toes. Actually my wife is happy to do the family channel
surfing when she's not busy hand-feeding me grapes while I play:)
>Seriously, though, I've found that one key to softer average attack is
>to reduce the distance the pick travels before and after it hits a
>note.
>
er, I guess so, I just hit it softer:)
Thom j.
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3be068ce$1...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
Tom Lippincott
>I have a Samsung Tantus flat screen high definition digital TV. My two
>favorite
>shows are Star Trek and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I don't put the remote
>in my mouth like JB's cigs (that would be gross), but I can change the
>channel
>via remote using my toes. Actually my wife is happy to do the family channel
>surfing when she's not busy hand-feeding me grapes while I play:)
Star Trek is one of the few shows that'll usually make me put down the guitar
and turn up the volume. I tried to watch Buffy a couple of times but couldn't
quite seem to "get it."
>
>>Seriously, though, I've found that one key to softer average attack is
>>to reduce the distance the pick travels before and after it hits a
>>note.
>>
>er, I guess so, I just hit it softer:)
>
>--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
I've been focusing a lot on the same the the last few years; the whole
controlled attack/Effortless Mastery thing, and agree this can be a great tool
for self expression. I've always been a bit turned off by that cliche on top of
the beat super hard picked old style jazz guitar sound, and I've always,
especially in the last few years, tried to emulate the sound/attack/phrasing
of players like Chick, Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans, ect. As for myself, I've
found that lighter strings have also helped me get closer to this "Effortless"
ideal. I can remember when I used to use 12s, even with really low action, I
always felt like I was fighting the guitar instead of "at one" with it. Then
again I've heard lots of players that use heavy strings who seem to get a great
"non heavy handed" sound with them.
Oh, and I have a Sony Trinitron from about 1982 that was given to me by a
friend of mine when he got a new TV. There are these weird lines at the top of
the screen and the picture isn't as sharp as it used to be, but it functions as
a "practicing TV" quite well. So that just goes to show once again that the
sound is in the fingers, not the equipment.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Dan Adler
> of players like Chick, Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans, ect. As for myself, I've
> found that lighter strings have also helped me get closer to this "Effortless"
> ideal. I can remember when I used to use 12s, even with really low action, I
> always felt like I was fighting the guitar instead of "at one" with it. Then
> again I've heard lots of players that use heavy strings who seem to get a great
> "non heavy handed" sound with them.
Me too. I played with 13's my whole life, but moved to 11's in the
last few years. Lately, I've also moved from a hard pick to a softy,
as it takes less effort to push it accross the strings. Besides the
expressive world this opens, it's really cut down on any pains I was
having in my hands and fingers.
Interestingly, when I do have occasion to play on heavy strings these
days, I find that I can get a lighter touch on them than I could when
I was using them regularly.
I assume everyone knows that Jim Hall has been using very light
strings way before it was the fad.
Dan Adler
> Interestingly, in an interview Wes said that for most of his career he was so
> tense whenever he'd play octaves that he'd get splitting headaches. It was
> somewhat encouraging to hear that he had such obstacles to overcome.
>
> But It's true that on that video he looks blissful, sometimes seemingly amazed
> at what was coming out of his fingers!
>
> Denis Markell
Elsewhere in the same interview he says he started playing octaves
because it didn't bother the neighbors as much.
Paul Sanwald
proponent of watching tv while practicing.
--paul
tomli...@aol.comnospam (Tom Lippincott) wrote in message news:<20011031174817...@mb-ce.aol.com>...
> >
Mark Kleinhaut
pcsa...@pobox.com (Paul Sanwald) wrote:
>this tv thing is funny. just FYI, george garzone is another big
>proponent of watching tv while practicing.
>
>--paul
>
HA! Big time vindication!
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
thomas
> quite seem to "get it."
What's to get? It's about this babe who kicks the shit out of guys in monster
costumes. Then there's some other stuff in between the fight scenes.
Tom Lippincott
>> quite seem to "get it."
>
>What's to get? It's about this babe who kicks the shit out of guys in monster
>costumes. Then there's some other stuff in between the fight scenes.
OOOH, NOW I get it.
thomas
> >>I tried to watch Buffy a couple of times but couldn't
> >> quite seem to "get it."
> >
> >What's to get? It's about this babe who kicks the shit out of guys in monster
> >costumes. Then there's some other stuff in between the fight scenes.
>
> OOOH, NOW I get it.
That show has really gone downhill the last two seasons.
Fewer fights, more filler.
Mark Kleinhaut
You mean you don't like the scenes with the lesbian witches?
Dan Adler
> Raney also is poorly represented on records. I can honestly say that
> the most exciting performance of any kind I've ever seen was catching
> Raney live at Zinno with Jack Wilkins and a bass player. On an uptempo
> version of "Lover, Come Back To Me", it was as if Bird had been
> reincarnated as a guitarist and was playing at his absolute best,
> during Raney's solo. The only other player I've ever seen play this
> powerfully was Phil Woods, my personal ideal of jazz improvisation. I
> don't think it was any coincidence that Woods and Raney made their
> first jazz records together. Their Bird-inspired use of accents on
> straight 8ths typified what great bop was about.
I would have loved to see that show! What's the definitive Raney
recording for you? I have the Sonny Clarke series and he did some
stuff for Aebersold which is also transcribed. I like it all but none
of it floors me, and I cannot hear the "Bird accents" in Jimmy's
playing (BTW, Raney also used consecutive picking).
sgcim
Raney on records never came even close to that night at Zinno, but he
never played a bad or even mediocre solo as a leader or sideman on the
many records he played on.
I guess the best stuff he did was on these LPs:
"Strings and Swings" on Muse. One side is a live concert of jazz
standards with David Lahm and Bobby Jones which is excellent. The
other side is a recording of a piece he wrote for Guitar and String
Quintet. He studied with the well-known composer Hall Overton, and was
heavily influenced by Bartok in his writing for strings. There's also
a lot of improvisation in this more than 20 minute "Suite for Guitar
and String Quintet".
Jimmy Raney "Live in Tokyo". I listened to "Darn That Dream" so much
that when someone happened to turn on BGO when they were playing it, I
thought that it me playing it! One of the strangest experiences in my
life- I actually had to pull over and stop!
"Two Jims and a Zoot". An album he did with Jim Hall and Zoot Sims,
which has some beautiful, subtle playing on it by everyone involved.
Finally, the Stan Getz album called "Stan Getz Plays" that has a
great version of "Round Midnight" on it.
I have countless other records with him as a sideman or leader, but
these were his best, IMHO.