Link to Jim Hall picking method?
Dave
it in one position, but I'm interested in how he applies it to others.
Sources? (I suppose I could go buy a book... <g>)
--
-Dave
Keith Freeman
book and seeing a couple of his videos I get the impression it's not about
method or technique, it's about expressing feelings, creating moods or
pictures. To me the most important thing is how I want to phrase the line
(singing it out loud or silently), the picking has to serve that and that
alone.
-Keith
Dave
That's all well and good, but you've got to have the chops to play it.
I have a Scofield video in which he demonstrates the Jim Hall style of
picking, which has a very definite pattern of when to pick and when to
hammer. But he only shows it in one scale position, which begins on the 6th
str, w/the 2nd finger. Because it isn't simply down-up-down-up I'm not sure
what happens if you, say, use the postition that starts on the 1st finger.
--
-Dave
Ken Rose
sure of that. He does demonstrate how he uses what some people call 'sweep
picking' on one of his videos, but there's no definite patterns. Maybe you
should look for material on sweep picking. Or get one of Jim Hall's videos
and watch his hand closely. There are four, and they're all worth having,
but if I were to get just one, it would probably be the Star Licks video.
You can get it here:
http://www.jazzbooks.com/scripts/search.asp?detail=1&item=913&More+Detail=Mo
re+Detail
Ken Rose
www.cdbaby.com/kenrose
"Dave" wrote
Dave
I'm sure that when he plays, he varies his picking. We all do that, right?
But you guys are missing the point. What does Hall do when he practices?
Conventionally, a guitarist practices (scales) w/standard up/down picking.
But part of Hall's picking technique is that he deliberately doesn't pick
every note--ever. Even though he may vary things as he solos, there have to
be some rules to apply in order to practice and develop the technique.
Like I said, in the Scofield video I have, he demonstrates what he refers to
as a technique pioneered by Jim Hall which, for the purposes of practice,
has a definite pattern of when to pick and when not to pick.
--
-Dave
Bob R
da...@nospam.net wrote on 6/6/03 10:44 AM:
> I'm sure that when he plays, he varies his picking. We all do that, right?
> But you guys are missing the point. What does Hall do when he practices?
> Conventionally, a guitarist practices (scales) w/standard up/down picking.
> But part of Hall's picking technique is that he deliberately doesn't pick
> every note--ever. Even though he may vary things as he solos, there have to
> be some rules to apply in order to practice and develop the technique.
>
> Like I said, in the Scofield video I have, he demonstrates what he refers to
> as a technique pioneered by Jim Hall which, for the purposes of practice,
> has a definite pattern of when to pick and when not to pick.
I've read some interviews with Jim Hall in which he talks about his work
with Jimmy Giuffre. He has said that during this period, he became very
concerned about articulation and that he would do things like play a phrase
by taking more notes on a single string, even if it seemed inconvenient, to
be able to match Giuffre's phrasing more accurately.
I don't think it's a question of having rules about "when to pick and when
not to pick"; it's more a question of developing techniques that make sure
you're doing what's right for the music at the moment instead of what's
convenient for the guitar.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD at: http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
"Well done is better than well said." - Benjamin Franklin
Mark Kleinhaut
Bob R <br...@reality.net> wrote:
>in article DN1Ea.2280>
>I don't think it's a question of having rules about "when to pick and when
>not to pick"; it's more a question of developing techniques that make sure
>you're doing what's right for the music at the moment instead of what's
>convenient for the guitar.
>
Do you mean leaning WHAT to play is more important than learning HOW to play?
What a notion:)
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Mark.html
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Max Leggett
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Bob R <br...@reality.net> wrote:
>>in article DN1Ea.2280>
>>I don't think it's a question of having rules about "when to pick and when
>>not to pick"; it's more a question of developing techniques that make sure
>>you're doing what's right for the music at the moment instead of what's
>>convenient for the guitar.
>>
>
>Do you mean leaning WHAT to play is more important than learning HOW to play?
> What a notion:)
Preposterous. Any damn fool can tell you that the secret is .. uuh!
[rushed to hospital with heart attack]
Bob R
mleg...@nospam.ca wrote on 6/6/03 2:55 PM:
Nurse, this man needs emergency attention. Get me two Trappistes - STAT! :)
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Max Leggett
>in article 3ee0e362....@News.CIS.DFN.DE, Max Leggett at
>mleg...@nospam.ca wrote on 6/6/03 2:55 PM:
>
>> On 6 Jun 2003 12:35:47 -0500, "Mark Kleinhaut"
>> <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Bob R <br...@reality.net> wrote:
>>>> in article DN1Ea.2280>
>>>> I don't think it's a question of having rules about "when to pick and when
>>>> not to pick"; it's more a question of developing techniques that make sure
>>>> you're doing what's right for the music at the moment instead of what's
>>>> convenient for the guitar.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you mean leaning WHAT to play is more important than learning HOW to play?
>>> What a notion:)
>>
>> Preposterous. Any damn fool can tell you that the secret is .. uuh!
>> [rushed to hospital with heart attack]
>>
>>
>
>Nurse, this man needs emergency attention. Get me two Trappistes - STAT! :)
>
[gasp ... wheeze ...] Th .. thanks doc. That was awful. I had a near
death experience. I saw Kenny G bathed in a white light and .. and..
resistance was futile! [bursts into tears of relief!] I'll lay off
those tacos at breakfast, fer shure.
Steve Carter
30 years ago.
We were both teaching at Berklee. Pat was always very generous about
answering questions. One day I asked him how he learned to phrase so
well. He said, "I listened to horn players and tried to phrase like
them."
I said, "Sure, but how did you translate that to the guitar?"
He said, "I'd sing a phrase, like, say, 'Scrapple': be-yu be-ya be-u
ba-de-dop..." Then every place I sang a consonant I'd pick, and every
place I sang a vowel I'd slur."
Simple, huh?
Steve
On Sat, 7 Jun 2003 00:52:33 +0800, "Ken Rose" <ken...@netvigator.com>
wrote:
>Sorry to disappoint you, Dave, but I doubt you're going to find what you're
>looking for. I think Jim Hall's 'secret' is that he tried to sound like
>Lester Young. I think maybe you're the one missing the point. You're not
>going to sound like Jim Hall by applying any rules. There aren't any rules
>or 'definite patterns' for that, at least not any I am aware of.
>
>You want to sound like Jim Hall? Transcribe some of his solos, and try to
>get the phrasing right. Get his videos and look at his hands. Figure out
>how to phrase like a sax player. Don't waste your time looking for rules
>that don't exist.
>
>Ken Rose
>www.cdbaby.com/kenrose
>
>"Dave" <da...@nospam.net> wrote in message
>news:DN1Ea.2280$iR1.54...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
Steve Carter
www.frogstoryrecords.com
Joey Goldstein
explores the possibilities spmewhat for hammer-ons and pulloffs. I think
the sub section in my book is called "phrase dependant fingerings". ....
Actually, I just looked and I only touch on this a bit in Chapter 17
Finding good fingerings For Single Note Lines.
The basic idea of phrase dependant fingerings is that you let try to
mimic the types of things indicated by phrase markings on written music
for other instruments, like saxophone. On sax parts you will see long
passages of legato phrasing marked with something akin to a slur or a
tie. The notes involved might be step-wise or there might be skips of
3rds or more. Sax can play skips legato, i.e. with out needing to
re-tongue each note.
On guitar tonguing is equivalent to striking the string with the pick.
Not tonguing can be mimicked by hammer-ons, pull-offs and slides. These
techniques require the notes to be on the same string so we can't do
them for any interval much larger than a perf 4th. I suppose slides are
possible with larger intervals though.
So what I would do was work out scale fingerings with the notes in
groups of 2 with the 2 notes on the same string. You pick the 1st note
and hammer-on or pull-off to the next. Here's the C scale laid out with
one of these phrase dependant fingerings:
Finger 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 2 1 3 1 3 1 3 4
String 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1 1
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
2 1 3 1 2 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 1
1 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 1
C B A G F E D C B A G F E D C
Notice that the fingering going down is different than the fingering
going up. this is because I am keeping the phrasing, not the fingering.
There's tons of other ways to do similar stuff. That's it for now.
Dinner's burning. Gotta go.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Steve Carter
I really do want to sit down and look more closely at your book. Seems
like you've covered a lot of good stuff.
Ken, I'd recommend you check out Joey's book.
At one point I wrote up some slurring exercises on Kreutzer Etude #1,
and I wrote up the picking and phrasing on Scrapple. I'll see if I can
dig them up.
As for slurs on horn parts: after playing with horn sections a lot,
I've found that they take those slur markings liberally. In other
words, it's more about breath than tonguing, in some cases. Still,
it's a good place to start.
Steve
Steve Carter
www.frogstoryrecords.com
Ken Rose
looking for rules and patterns to sound like Jim Hall, not me.
Ken Rose
www.cdbaby.com/kenrose
"Steve Carter" <swca...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:tjl2ev4l27lk1n67v...@4ax.com...
Keith Freeman
> Conventionally, a guitarist practices (scales) w/standard up/down
> picking. But part of Hall's picking technique is that he deliberately
> doesn't pick every note--ever. Even though he may vary things as he
> solos, there have to be some rules to apply in order to practice and
> develop the technique.
music rather than technique - the technique would always be subservient
to what he wanted to achieve musically. Or he would have been trying
different techniques to see what effect they had musically.
Now Sco may have seen Jim play a scale a particular way, Jim may even
have taught him that one time, but I bet if Sco had gone back to Jim
later, Jim would have been doing it differently by then.
That said, if you want to develop this particular scale picking in a
different position, just memorize the phrasing and then see how you can
reproduce it from a different starting point. You may well discover new
phrasings that you like in the process!
-Keith
Steve Carter
Oh, yeah. Sorry. I need to read more closeley.
This thread got me thinking again about phrasing like a horn player,
and how one goes about doing it. I think we all agree that listening
closely and analytically is very important. But when we practice, we'd
like to feel that what we practice is leading toward what we want to
play. Certainly, if we only practice alternate picking, there's less
chance that slurred phrasing will come out in our playing.
But I've never been one to believe that you have to practice only what
you are going to play. I think that practicing slurs on classical
music will lead to the ability to use slurs spontaneously on jazz
melodies, as long as you've listened enough to internalize the
language of jazz.
Of course, by "you," I don't mean "you," Ken, but "we." :)
Steve
On Sat, 7 Jun 2003 13:06:56 +0800, "Ken Rose" <ken...@netvigator.com>
wrote:
>Thanks, Steve, but I think you meant to say 'Dave', not 'Ken'. He's the one
Steve Carter
www.frogstoryrecords.com
Bob R
freeke...@compuserve.com wrote on 6/7/03 7:18 AM:
> The impression I have is that Jim is/was always experimenting, and with
> music rather than technique - the technique would always be subservient
> to what he wanted to achieve musically. Or he would have been trying
> different techniques to see what effect they had musically.
Way back somewhere in the recesses of my memory is a recollection of reading
a Jim Hall interview in which he mentioned going so far as to tie off
strings or pairs of strings with rubber bands when practicing to force
himself to use different fingerings.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com