For Pat Metheny fans
Jack A. Zucker
http://www.playscape-recordings.com/rec2.html#13
He's got just about every pat metheny lick down Pat (bad pun here...)
But seriously, if you like the question and answer cd, i'd recommend
picking up the Mike Pavone Trio cd. It's chock full of every Metheny
lick you can imagine. Not to imply that Pavone doesn't have his own
style by any means. Pavone's an amazing player in his own right.
Anyway, quit reading my fumbling tribute and check the guy out!
Jaz
matt hooley
"retreadedness" is so obvious than I shouldn't want to hear him, it's
against what I believe in.
~mh
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:2f33c43f.02070...@posting.google.com...
mb
strong convictions, it makes me think that your music is next-level.
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agf2hv$lcjtt$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
Max Leggett
<mho...@mindless.com> wrote:
>If I wanted to hear Methany I would listen to Methany. I guess if Pavone's
>"retreadedness" is so obvious than I shouldn't want to hear him, it's
>against what I believe in.
Well, here goes Hooey again, lecturing people without having a clue
about the subject. Once a jerk, always a jerk, huh Hooey?
Tell us, Hooey - what is it that you believe in?
Mark Guest
It's apparent that you are probably a very quick typist. May I make a
suggestion to keep the flames down? Try storing your messages for an hour or
so. At the end of the allotted time, *read the message before sending it*.
Edit as needed. This aging, or maturation process might help you get across
what you really mean to communicate. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt
here. You might not be an asshole, just a little too quick off the cuff.
Then again, you might be killfile material.
BTW, Jack: Thanks for the pointer to Mike Pavone. I had never heard him
before. Very nice stuff. The first piece that I listened to sounded like Jim
Hall meets Pat Metheny on one guitar.
--
Mark Guest
JazzerWB at JahWho dot com
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agf2hv$lcjtt$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
mb
http://www.aic.se/artists/wakenius/index.html
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:2f33c43f.02070...@posting.google.com...
Thom_j.
with some post'ees.. aint I bad? :)
Joe Finn
Mike is a very fine player indeed. His brother Mario is a bass player who
recorded with Braxton and together with guitarist Mike Musillami formed
Playscape records. Musillami is another guitar player that people here will
enjoy discovering. He's very original and has several Playscape titles
available. Another fine player involved with the label is pianist Andy
Jaffe. ....joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Lou Fiorillo
listened to. Most players that try to emulate Metheny sound silly because
no one can nail the legato -"slippery-ness" that makes him so original. Not
so here.
Thanks again!
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:2f33c43f.02070...@posting.google.com...
Thom_j.
also the one above "Michael Musillamo w/ Peter Madsen
Part Pitbull" just my observation.. thom_j.
"Lou Fiorillo" <LF...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:j0JW8.363$qe1....@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
matt hooley
saying that I don't think it's a good thing when one player copies their
idol to the point that some one like Mr. Zucker says basically 'if you've
heard one you've heard the other.'
Seriously, no offense or 'jerkfullness' intended, you guys just get the
wrong impression, quite consistently, maybe I'm not communicating clearly
enough?
~mh
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agf2hv$lcjtt$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
Max Leggett
People who have speak highly of him. You, knowing nothing of his
playing, refer to him as being a retread. It's your offensive,
sneering tone, coupled with your utter lack of knowledge, that people
object to.
I've read your posts, and I've read Adam Bravo's posts. Adam is 14.
He's not only vastly more sophisticated than you, but he's also
demonstrated a solid knowledge of the guitar. I doubt if you can play
even basic campfire chords.
You strike me as being a snotty 12-year old pretending to be a
teenager.
I don't know if you think you're impressing anyone with your silly
posturing, but you certainly aren't impressing anyone on this NG.
matt hooley
news:3d2b7086...@news.sprint.ca...
> Well, Hooey, it's evident you've never heard the musician in question.
> People who have speak highly of him. You, knowing nothing of his
> playing, refer to him as being a retread. It's your offensive,
> sneering tone, coupled with your utter lack of knowledge, that people
> object to.
See, I wasn't even talking about that player (what his name), I was talking
about the concept behind the original post.
> I've read your posts, and I've read Adam Bravo's posts. Adam is 14.
> He's not only vastly more sophisticated than you, but he's also
> demonstrated a solid knowledge of the guitar.
Look, I can theory-dual with the smartest guys on here, what do you want,
bigger vocab words?
> I doubt if you can play
> even basic campfire chords.
It's funny you could possibly be so sure. I could be the best player on
this NG for all you know (trust me I suck but only because I've only played
guitar 2 years)
> You strike me as being a snotty 12-year old pretending to be a
> teenager.
>
Sure, what ever you imagine. That would be one damned smart 12 year old.
> I don't know if you think you're impressing anyone with your silly
> posturing, but you certainly aren't impressing anyone on this NG.
I'm not trying to impress anyone, image is nothing. It's you people who try
to etch a conception of who I am.
~mh
Jack A. Zucker
> "retreadedness" is so obvious than I shouldn't want to hear him, it's
> against what I believe in.
What a STUPID, IDIOTIC AND MORONIC comment. I guess when Wayne Shorter
was going through his 'Trane period and when Wynton went through his
Clifford period and when Metheny went through his Wes period it was
all a waste of time?
Joey Goldstein
Metheny. He plays great. He plays the Metheny stuff I wish I could play,
not the pretty, simple, happy jazz stuff that most Metheny copiers copy.
But where is Pavone in all of this? I sense a bit of an original voice
in the writing but as soon as the blowing starts it's ALL Meth. Weird. I
hope he's really young and can grow out of this. Maybe they just picked
those sound clips to impress folks with those Meth-isms and there's some
more Pavon-isms elsewhere on the CD?
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Joey Goldstein
"Jack A. Zucker" wrote:
>
> "matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message news:<agf2hv$lcjtt$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de>...
> > If I wanted to hear Methany I would listen to Methany. I guess if Pavone's
> > "retreadedness" is so obvious than I shouldn't want to hear him, it's
> > against what I believe in.
>
> What a STUPID, IDIOTIC AND MORONIC comment. I guess when Wayne Shorter
> was going through his 'Trane period
If he released any recordings where he was blatantly imitating Trane
well I haven't heard them. Being influenced by somebody is a lot
different than releasing CDs that are pure imitation.
> and when Wynton went through his
> Clifford period and when Metheny went through his Wes period it was
> all a waste of time?
PM never sounded like Wes on any record he released.
Pavone's a great player and all but those sound clips are creepy.
Max Leggett
<mho...@mindless.com> wrote:
>> I've read your posts, and I've read Adam Bravo's posts. Adam is 14.
>> He's not only vastly more sophisticated than you, but he's also
>> demonstrated a solid knowledge of the guitar.
>
>Look, I can theory-dual with the smartest guys on here, what do you want,
>bigger vocab words?
Interestingly, I've never seen anything at all to do with playing or
theory in your posts. Nothing. A lot of sneering, but no solid
knowledge.
>> You strike me as being a snotty 12-year old pretending to be a
>> teenager.
>>
>Sure, what ever you imagine. That would be one damned smart 12 year old.
No. You don't strike me as bright for a 12-year old at all.
>> I don't know if you think you're impressing anyone with your silly
>> posturing, but you certainly aren't impressing anyone on this NG.
>
>I'm not trying to impress anyone, image is nothing. It's you people who try
>to etch a conception of who I am.
It's you etching the conception, Hooey, with your mindless posturing.
Thom_j.
Joey. Its eerie listening to Pavone's clips but I like Pat Metheny so
much that I like his clips.. jmho :) thom_j.
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3D2B7D71...@nowhere.net...
matt hooley
>
>
> "Jack A. Zucker" wrote:
> >
> > "matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:<agf2hv$lcjtt$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de>...
> > > If I wanted to hear Methany I would listen to Methany. I guess if
Pavone's
> > > "retreadedness" is so obvious than I shouldn't want to hear him, it's
> > > against what I believe in.
> >
> > What a STUPID, IDIOTIC AND MORONIC comment. I guess when Wayne Shorter
> > was going through his 'Trane period
>
> If he released any recordings where he was blatantly imitating Trane
> well I haven't heard them. Being influenced by somebody is a lot
> different than releasing CDs that are pure imitation.
>
Precisely, Joey you nailed my point!
~mh
matt hooley
people imagine a voice yelling it at them or something...it's weird.
~mh
"Thom_j." <thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:FnNW8.53091$Im2.2...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
mb
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agg8kt$l1fiu$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
Thom_j.
life will be much simpler. take it from one old fert who knows.
thom_j.
Kev
Okay, I don't have Realaudio, myself, so I will confess not having heard this
guy yet, but I can only say that this is not a tempting endorsement of
someone's style! Especially given Joey Goldstein's comment earlier in the
thread.
I don't say this to diss him, since I haven't heard him, and i *love* Mario
Pavone's playing! Just not too sure what the point is of playing "every Metheny
lick you can imagine" on one's own CD.
-Kevin
A. van der Reijden
right away mainly because Pavone gave the Metheny oriented stuff a twist
that is hard to describe: pushing things a little more to the edge, the
non-commercial edge that is.
Arie - Holland
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com>
Thom_j.
the "flavour" of the music clip has the Metheny'ism, if you will, within
the clips. Pavone sounds good enough to take off on his on style and
probably will or already has. Point? I don't feel Pavone is just another
Metheny wanna'be.. imho thom_j.
Thom_j.
"A. van der Reijden" <a.vd.r...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:aggp47$djt$1...@reader07.wxs.nl...
David Moss
"matt hooley" wrote...
> If I wanted to hear Methany I would listen to Methany. I guess if
Pavone's
> "retreadedness" is so obvious than I shouldn't want to hear him, it's
> against what I believe in.
and....
> Seriously, no offense or 'jerkfullness' intended, you guys just get the
> wrong impression, quite consistently, maybe I'm not communicating clearly
> enough?
Since I haven't been around here for a while, I seem to have missed
some prior history of "not communicating clearly enough".... anyway,
I choose to regard your question as serious and give you a serious
answer on why your posting came over as (unintentionally) offensive.
In this thread, I agree with you that the general point you were
trying to make was OK - I don't think anyone here would dispute
that jazz musicians should strive for their own voice, especially
when they're making CDs that they expect people to buy. What
you did wrong IMHO was not reading Jack Zucker's original posting
carefully enough. If you look again, you'll see that Jack said "...not to
imply that Pavone doesn't have his own style by any means." The
way you made your point, as a response to Jack's posting and
referring specifically to Pavone, certainly made it look like a put-
down: Jack recommended something for us to listen to, and your
reply implied that Jack doesn't know what he's talking about.
And then you also have to consider that Jack has established his
credentials as a fine musician and a thoughtful contributor here over
many years, it's predictable that most of the regulars are going to
have an allergic reaction to seeing you put him down - for me, Jack's
endorsement is certainly a good enough reason to go and listen
to any CD (in fact if Jack said it sounds better with a carrot stuck
up your nose, I'd seriously consider it...).
Summary - before you post a reply, read the original posting carefully,
think about how the poster is going to feel about being contradicted,
and think about who it is you're putting down. Hope that helps.
Bo Johansson
Matt,
Maybe I am going to sound like your dad or teacher or something but consider
these "rules ".
If someone writes:
"I dislike you just a little tiny, mini, small, smurfsized, bit,"
chances are when read it becomes:
"I HATE YOU YOU S.O.B GO AND F**K A COW" etc.
> Look, I can theory-dual with the smartest guys on here, what do you want,
> bigger vocab words?
This becomes:
"I am the best musician ever. I have nothing to learn from any of you tone
deaf zeros".
>Seriously, no offense or 'jerkfullness' intended, you guys just get the
>> >wrong impression, quite consistently, maybe I'm not communicating clearly
>> >enough?
Having conversations here is not like talking in the real world were you have
instant feedback, can clarify and correct misunderstandings in real time. You
post a lot and can´t expect people to spend whole day pondering on your
particular reflections about music (trying to figure out what you really
mean). I believe you are honestly trying to be helpful but
this"top-of-my-head" style of writing combined with a "besserwiss" attitude
(which is hopefully not what you intend when you post) is not
making people happy as you must have found out by know.
Bosse,
Sweden
Thom_j.
Joey Goldstein
"Thom_j." wrote:
>
> I cant speak for Joey but they arent tribute licks to Metheny. It's more
> the "flavour" of the music clip has the Metheny'ism, if you will, within
> the clips. Pavone sounds good enough to take off on his on style and
> probably will or already has. Point? I don't feel Pavone is just another
> Metheny wanna'be.. imho thom_j.
I hope you're right.
>
> > Okay, I don't have Realaudio, myself, so I will confess not having heard
> this
> > guy yet, but I can only say that this is not a tempting endorsement of
> > someone's style! Especially given Joey Goldstein's comment earlier in the
> > thread.
> >
> > I don't say this to diss him, since I haven't heard him, and i *love*
> Mario
> > Pavone's playing! Just not too sure what the point is of playing "every
> Metheny
> > lick you can imagine" on one's own CD.
> >
> > -Kevin
--
Thom_j.
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3D2C6BCB...@nowhere.net...
Pat Smith
Jack A. Zucker wrote:
> Check out Mike Pavone:
> http://www.playscape-recordings.com/rec2.html#13
>
> He's got just about every pat metheny lick down Pat (bad pun here...)
>
Bob Russell
nos...@nowhere.net wrote on 7/10/02 1:15 PM:
> "Thom_j." wrote:
>>
>> I cant speak for Joey but they arent tribute licks to Metheny. It's more
>> the "flavour" of the music clip has the Metheny'ism, if you will, within
>> the clips. Pavone sounds good enough to take off on his on style and
>> probably will or already has. Point? I don't feel Pavone is just another
>> Metheny wanna'be.. imho thom_j.
>
> I hope you're right.
Pavone's about 40 years old, for what it's worth. I checked out the clips,
and I have to admit that he does sound eerily like Metheny. Whether he did
that out of imitation or because that's just how he hears music, I couldn't
say. He sure sounds great and plays some very nice lines, at any rate. If he
made a conscious choice to imitate Pat Metheny, then he's been amazingly
successful at it and he certainly could have picked worse guys to imitate.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
Joey Goldstein
If you're a guitar player and a Metheny fan, and you're like me, it's
real hard to not get sucked into that vortex where you want to play like
that. For me, PM was my introduction to jazz guitar. All I ever wanted
to do in the jazz idiom was play what he played. I had to stop listening
to him for a time because I was so drawn to what he does.
When you realize that the biggest thing about the style of someone of
Pat's stature is to NOT sound like anybody else you start feeling real
guilty, as well as inadequate, every time you play something that reeks
of being a PM hallmark. Mike Pavone is hardly inadequate though. He
plays that shit with great time, great feel, a great sound and he sounds
totally relaxed. But it's not him.
Of course those sound clips are just a few seconds long. I wonder if he
can keep that up for an entire chorus. A guy with that kind of a command
of the instrument and of harmony/melody has got to have more than a few
ideas of his own in there somewhere.
Thom_j.
to hear them & see if your quazi theory is correct? Meaning: Is it
just a one time type Metheny CD or is this his 24/7 style?
It would be interesting to find out.. thom_j.
Thom_j.
but he's a new muscian for my ear. I need to hear more of his music
in full, as you aptly stated... thom_j.
Bob Russell
nos...@nowhere.net wrote on 7/10/02 2:56 PM:
> Of course those sound clips are just a few seconds long. I wonder if he
> can keep that up for an entire chorus. A guy with that kind of a command
> of the instrument and of harmony/melody has got to have more than a few
> ideas of his own in there somewhere.
I think that's right, Joey. Even at that short length, I heard him play a
few things I've never heard Metheny do. He's obviously a very talented
musician; I'd be reluctant to write him off as a clone based on those few
seconds of playing.
This reminds me of the story about Brew Moore's response when somebody
accused him of playing like Lester Young. He said, indignant, "Anybody who
DOESN'T play like Lester is wrong!" That's a little extreme for me, but I
see his point. Personally, my hat's off to Pavone; a lot of people have
copied Metheny in superficial ways, but he's clearly gotten deep into the
musical reasoning behind Metheny's style. It'll be interesting to see what
he does with what he's learned.
Jack A. Zucker
actually get out there and play something. There was a point in time
when I was studying with Pat Martino that I sounded very similar to
him. Folks critisized my playing by telling me I needed my own style.
I think when folks here me now, not many think I sound just like
Martino or Metheny or Wes (3 of my heros). That fact that Mike Pavone
happened to record an album during this phase of his development is
irrelevant. A recording is merely an event in time, captured for the
world to see/hear. Frankly, he's an amazing player and most folks in
this group would do well to get off their high horse and appreciate
talent for what it is.
It's easy to be a critic. All you need is webtv and google news. It's
a little harder to be out there in a live jazz scene...
It reminds me of some of the hacks writing reviews for the magazines
in that it's easier to be a viewer/listener/reviewer and spew
criticisms. That way you can sound like you know what you're talking
about without having to really do all the hard work it takes to
actually play on the level of someone like Mike.
Jaz
Joey Goldstein
completely justified. I've said how good he is. I've even said said how
envious I am of his ability. But even you have got to be a little
creeped out by how much like Metheny those clips sound.
--
Bob Russell
at j...@jackzucker.com wrote on 7/10/02 3:47 PM:
Geez, Jack, a little touchy, aren't we? Looking back over the thread, most
posters (including myself) have expressed appreciation for this guy's talent
and ability. Very few have said anything negative except for expressing a
few reservations about him sounding an awful lot like Metheny, which he
does, at least on the stuff I heard.
mb
of your own. There were some things in his playing that were his own, but
the overall vibe of his playing wasn't. I guess the underlying perspective
is that if he could get to that level with Metheny's vibe he could have put
that effort into his own thing and be really, REALLY heavy. I will say that
I did dig what he was playing, though.
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:2f33c43f.02071...@posting.google.com...
Bob Russell
nos...@dogelbow.com wrote on 7/10/02 4:33 PM:
> Man, it's far easier to cop another persons style than it is to do something
> of your own.
Ha! Cop Pat Metheny's style and get back to me.
mb
sound like Meth, Django, Benson, etc? If you can put the time in, copping
isn't hard to do. Man, Pat's stuff is very 'hearable', which makes it a
formality of putting in the time in order to cop it. Same with any music.
Just listen and shed and you can cop it, right? But when you are trying to
get your own thing happening there is more time spent sounding 'bad'. I am
not saying his stuff is easy, he is an amazing guitarist and musician.
"Bob Russell" <bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B95213E7.8CEF%bobrus...@hotmail.com...
Jack A. Zucker
like Benson or Metheny. You can't because their styles are so unique and
deep that you can sound influenced but it's very difficult to really sound
like those guys. Russell Malone, Henry Johnson and Rodney Jones sound
influenced by Benson but *NOBODY* can really cop the benson feel, tone and
melodies. Same as Metheny with the exception of Mike Pavone. Most guys who
try to sound like Metheny end up sounding muzaky. All you naysayers, let's
hear your own unique stylings!!! :-)
--
web: http://www.jackzucker.com
"mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com> wrote in message
news:Em1X8.76762$wj4.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Bob Russell
nos...@dogelbow.com wrote on 7/10/02 5:14 PM:
> So then why, for every one unique 'voice' are there dozens of players who
> sound like Meth, Django, Benson, etc?
I haven't heard anybody who sounds *exactly* like the guys you just
mentioned. I hear plenty of people who manage to cop superficial elements of
their styles, but that's about it.
> If you can put the time in, copping isn't hard to do.
Again, not on a superficial level; I can play a few octaves with the right
sound and some yahoo somewhere will say "Sounds just like Wes", but someone
who really knows Wes's music would know better.
> Man, Pat's stuff is very 'hearable', which makes it a formality of putting in
> the time in order to cop it.
How much of his stuff have you closely listened to? I've noticed quite a lot
in his work that I don't find particularly "hearable". I'll reiterate my
original statement to you: cop Metheny's style and we'll talk.
> Same with any music. Just listen and shed and you can cop it, right?
> But when you are trying to get your own thing happening there is more time
> spent sounding 'bad'.
I don't know, Matt; I've heard a lot of people trying to sound like Wes or
Pat or Django. Some of them sounded pretty bad!
> I am not saying his stuff is easy, he is an amazing guitarist and musician.
Yes, he is.
Jack A. Zucker
> Man, it's far easier to cop another persons style than it is to do
something
> of your own. There were some things in his playing that were his own, but
> the overall vibe of his playing wasn't.
I always laugh when I hear those kind of comments. I have students who want
to know why they should copy anyone. They want to be original. They forget
that art has a heritage and tradition. I agree that Mike has probably
exceeded the threshold of the heritage and should forge his own style but
let's agree that he's a wonderful player and go from there instead of just
criticising him. How many of you folks have put in that kind of time? Is
there no longer respect for someone's hard work, dedication, etc?
Jack A. Zucker
> Oh come on Jack. The criticism I've been leveling at Pavone is
> completely justified. I've said how good he is. I've even said said how
> envious I am of his ability. But even you have got to be a little
> creeped out by how much like Metheny those clips sound.
Not at all and my comments were not directed at you. I figure you have put
in the time and effort and have achieved a degree of accomplishment whereby
you can make directed comments about somebody's playing.
(Hoo boy...I can see the flames coming...)
Jaz
Jack A. Zucker
> Man, Pat's stuff is very 'hearable', which makes it a
> formality of putting in the time in order to cop it.
HUH? Let me hear you play one chorus of his solo on "All the things you are"
from Q&A or a chorus of his solo on "Go Get It" from the Trio 99/00
recording.
If you can cop that with the time feel and tone of Pat, then we'll talk.
Jaz
Jack A. Zucker
> Geez, Jack, a little touchy, aren't we?
Ain't I always! :-)
Joey Goldstein
Probably at me though, not at you. <g>
IMO There's a difference between "copping" and "copying". When I study
somebody's style it is in order to cop some of their ideas and then
digest them so I can use them in my own way. Now, my association with PM
was such that, for me, trying to learn jazz on the guitar was the same
thing as trying to play like him. I'm one of those people who copied
some of the most shallow aspects of his playing which in turn have
become a part of my own playing, so much so, that I am incapable of
turning it off now, even thouigh I am aware that I am doing it.
For me, this is probably why I concentrate so much on theory (i.e. the
ideas behind the music) as opposed to physical chops and lifting the
work of other players, although I've done a fair bit of lifting in my
day. I've come to the conclusion that it's OK (i.e. morally acceptable
to me) to use some of the same types of melodic techniques and ideas of
my favorite players as long as I don't merely copy them note for note.
For example: There's a thing Pat likes to do on dom7 chords where he
cycles back and forth between the major triad built on the root and the
major triad built a b5 above. He tends to do it from root position to
root position (C E G - Gb Bb D). There's lots of this in his All The
Things and Solar solos. Knowing this, I try to stay away from that
particular use of the two triads (something I still can not stop myself
from doing BTW) but to use different inversions and different note orders.
I agree with the poster that said it is a lot easier (not easy, just
easier) to copy somebody else's style than it is to figure out what it
is that makes a great style of your own. If ALL I did, day in and day
out, was lift Pat's stuff and practise it to perfection I know that I
would be physically capable of playing much of what he can play. But
what I will never be able to do is get inside his head so that I know
how he figured out how to play that stuff. And speaking from my current
attitudes about music I wouldn't want to.
What PM *means* to me is the quest to find my own voice, which is
something I have not been all that successful at achieving.
Jack A. Zucker
> IMO There's a difference between "copping" and "copying".
OK, I give!!!
I guess the thing that ticked me off from the beginning of this thread - and
gave me more of an attitude than even *I* am normally predisposed to - is
that 17 year old kidlet cutting down Mike Pavone. Mike could eat that kid
out and spit out his bones faster than you or I could play a ii v i.
There's something to be said for paying dues and respecting cats who can
play. Far too many times, folks are too quick to criticise other players
when their own achievements can be measured best by how many posts they make
per day.
Come to think of it, I guess I fall into that category! :-)
Jaz
Thom_j.
of us were selling Mike Pavone short or putting him into any fixed
cubicle.. I certainly was doing the opposite.. I was not "criticizing"
Mike Pavone & I felt you were doing the same. go figure..eh? :)
thom_j.
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3D2C946E...@nowhere.net...
Joey Goldstein
"Jack A. Zucker" wrote:
>
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:3D2CB41D...@nowhere.net...
> > IMO There's a difference between "copping" and "copying".
>
> OK, I give!!!
>
> I guess the thing that ticked me off from the beginning of this thread - and
> gave me more of an attitude than even *I* am normally predisposed to - is
> that 17 year old kidlet cutting down Mike Pavone. Mike could eat that kid
> out and spit out his bones faster than you or I could play a ii v i.
Well Matthew's just a little abrasive sometimes. You shoulda' seen me
when I was 17. Platform boots, hair down to my ass, thinking I was
Hendrix, dissing jazz. Matt's in a lot better shape then I was back then.
> There's something to be said for paying dues and respecting cats who can
> play.
No doubt about it, Mike Pavone can play. I wouldn't want to be standing
next to him on the bandstand doing my little demolished and bohemian
scale licks. But still.
> Far too many times, folks are too quick to criticise other players
> when their own achievements can be measured best by how many posts they make
> per day.
>
> Come to think of it, I guess I fall into that category! :-)
Don't we all. :)
> Jaz
Thom_j.
did! Shit I do not care if I sound like Spike Jones, or Soupy Sales :)
"mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com> wrote in message
news:_L0X8.76585$wj4.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Thom_j.
get your BP too high, it aint worth it, take it from one who knows
and I aint braggin about it either.. :) thom_j.
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:G02X8.14$Np2....@news1.news.adelphia.net...
onlyserious
with Metheny years ago in which he spoke of learning guitar by
transcribing Wes...he went on to say that when he was getting his own
style together, he refused to play Wes-style octives "out of
respect..." To this day I can't thing of a single PM phrase using the
technique...but then I only have 10 of his CDs. Sam
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:<3D2C8340...@nowhere.net>...
Jack A. Zucker
news:2322020b.02071...@posting.google.com...
> As an addendum to Joey's thoughts, I remember reading an interview
> with Metheny years ago in which he spoke of learning guitar by
> transcribing Wes...he went on to say that when he was getting his own
> style together, he refused to play Wes-style octives "out of
> respect..." To this day I can't thing of a single PM phrase using the
> technique...but then I only have 10 of his CDs. Sam
No, that's not what he said and that's not what he did. When he auditioned
for the University of Miami, he sounded VERY MUCH like Wes and did indeed
play octaves and all the other Wes'isms.
Stan Samole who auditioned him at Miami told me that .
Jaz
Kev
Again, since I haven't heard the clips, what follows isn't so much Mike Pavone-
related as it is related to this debate, which is a general topic that comes up
in this art form. Okay, enough of the obvious!
There's no lack of respect on my part for that kind of hard work and dedication,
nor ignorance of the idea of paying attention to the heritage/tradition of the
art of soloing in a jazz context. My personal view (not a flame, just a view) is
that the study of the tradition _necessarily_ involves a deep enough study of
a broad enough cross-section of players (guitar and otherwise, goes w/o
saying...) that what you end up with is a pretty richly varied mix of
influences. This mix, I feel, is something that every player *naturally* puts
his or her own spin on. I think it just happens. I haven't heard anyone from
this newsgroup who sounds like anyone else, and I don't think I sound like
anyone else, just because we're all attracted to slightly different things, and
a zillion other factors that go into how each of us would even play the same
lick. Maybe I can be accused of being overly optimistic, that's okay. I've
wandered a bit, so I'll back up, and just say that a truly thorough study of
the tradition would involve an entire matrix of diverse influences, especially
in this day and age, considering how many contrasting styles have come before
us and are grouped under the "jazz umbrella".
I think younger players err in that they strive for uniqueness at the point
where they've absorbed *not enough* influences. No player is an island, in other
words.
I'll reiterate that I'm not coming down on Mr. Pavone's playing, as I would
have no right to without having checked him out. No disrespect here, just my
point of view on this general issue.
-Kevin
Joey Goldstein
"Jack A. Zucker" wrote:
>
> Stan Samole who auditioned him at Miami told me that .
>
> Jaz
So what's the deal with Stan and Nintendo? I heard he was the majority
shareholder at one time. True? At least he's got jazz guitar to fall
back on, eh?
Thom_j.
miss-undertand me! This is *not* being directed at you or
anyone on the NG! Damn its tuff when you have to clarify
every post.. :) an illiterate thom_j.
Thom_j.
doing the hippity-dippity with "Roller Girl"...eh? :)
> Well Matthew's just a little abrasive sometimes. You shoulda' seen me
> when I was 17. Platform boots, hair down to my ass, thinking I was
> Hendrix, dissing jazz. Matt's in a lot better shape then I was back then.
>
mb
"Thom_j." <thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%C3X8.130514$vq.65...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Thom_j.
more like Soupy & play like Gomer Pyle.. haha :)
"mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com> wrote in message
news:6d8X8.10963$JU3.1...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...