Dare to be different
Pt
Through the years I have listened to clips from many people in this
group and even though this does not hold true for everyone, it does
for the majority.
You guys all sound the same.
I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
play.
Guitarists that I can always tell apart are those with a particular
style of their own.
Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Eric Clapton, George
Harrison, Les Paul , Duane Eddy, Jimmy Bruno, Link Wray, Django,
Charlie Christian and many more.
Dare to be different.
Make your music memorable.
Pt
Steve Carroll
Pt <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I probably haven't listened to as many as you have so maybe my
perspective isn't broad enough to be very accurate, but this is opinion
time and, from what I've heard so far, I disagree with your opinion.
Perhaps if you were to point out some particular clips for me to listen
to I could better hear what you're talking about.
Steve
Gibson335v
Pat:
This is Vince. I have to use aol at work to access newsgroups.
I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, it is a complaint that I have about
jazz guitar in general., which is why I admire Mike Stern, Scofield,
Abercombie, Robin Ford, Bill Frissell to name a few.
I know you did not intend to insult but you are about to upset the purists!!
I reached the same conclusion about a year and a half ago not just about the
group but about myself.
Thereafter, I started learning a new chord system - extensions without roots
and I sold all of my archtops! Now, I use semi-hollows strung with 11's and
experiment with various effects in the mix. I want clean but I want an edge.
Hence the Les Paul with Rio Grande's, the Reverend Slingshot, and the Epi
Sheraton with mini-humbuckers ( about to put the new baby buckers from Rio in)
To me sustain used tastefully is a good thing.
All of this, including the recent purchase on your suggestion of the Crate V50
Head is to find a different tonality and attack.
My view is that the guitar can sing and wail like a sax....so why don't we hear
more of it?
We can learn from the Blues/Rock guys - soul and expression. We sometimes get
lost in technique and esoterics. We should use our knowledge to express
ourselves better.
Let the flames begin!
Peace
Vince
Greg D
I would consider that a great compliemtn if I was in that list!
To me, LarryV sounds dif than KevinVS. Joe Finn sounds dif as well. Some I
like better than others Those are just a few examples. I can't attest to
everybody's playing as I"ve heard alot of it but not to A/B it.
Greg
NDB
coming from musically. I'm always looking to hear innovative players.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
A One-Man Jazz Band? Believe it!
http://www.cosmiccontamination.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
thom_j.
news:20030828105803...@mb-m05.aol.com...
LoL..Vince on the flames.... I am of the school of loving all music but
I do lean more toward blues with an edge like you indicate with using
some effects to give you a different sound and some melodic newage
fusion feel.. Not the wind chime stuff, but more Kitaro etc. and I will
probably never be able to shake 40'+yrs of hard'core 'blues' playing.
Matter of fact I really can dig into a 'pent scale' go way out of it's so
called "scale range" and almost turn it upside down into another key.
I enjoy expermenting with both tonal, and effect' type playing within
any musical rif/lick/phrase/stanza/piece/song/etc... I enjoy it and my
days of making a living in the "music world" is history for me.
About 2yrs ago I wanted to learn what my father knew inside&out,
Jazz! This and, all the great chord melody (for lack of term) pieces
is what turned me toward Jazz again. It is extremely hard for me to
grasp, but I keep trying. Again it is just a matter of 'I love all music'.
Does it appear that many on Rmmgj sound the same? Well I dont
feel this way at all. Yes, purists like a certain sound/timbre I guess
but so does every other genre, and sub'genre.. I feel sometimes if
we over 'saturate' ourselves with a flavour it can 'ingrain' within us
and 'hence' many may start sounding "similar." I feel it is probably
the nature of the beast type of thing, so to speak..
Bottom line: We do feed off of others, & many times we can be
an 'extension' of others timbre/sound, and sometimes we do not.
Btw I too dig, Metheny, Benson, Scofield, Abercombie, Robin
Ford, etc but my list is too boringly long to type everyone. :8^)'.
well datz my 2p... cheers thom_j.
Dirk
may have a less distinctive voice, most musicians clips i heard
from this group are very diverse and unique maybe not in the league
of a few names you mentioned but very valuable never the less.
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
Rick Ross
don't mean to insult but i don't believe I have ever run across a clip of
yours.....why don't you post something to Dick's site so we can share in
your uniqueness:)
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
Pt
<rickro...@netscape.net> wrote:
>pat
>don't mean to insult but i don't believe I have ever run across a clip of
>yours.....why don't you post something to Dick's site so we can share in
>your uniqueness:)
>
I don't make clips nor do I profess to be unique.
I am just be part of the majority.
Pt
Joe Finn
I'm certainly not insulted in any way but there is a certain irony here that
I feel merits comment. 8-)
> You guys all sound the same.
Oh Man! That's rich, baby! 8-)
Didn't you just post something to the effect that you have spent your life
playing loud music through a cranked Marshall 100 watt 2203 amp?
> I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
> play.
That marshall did'nt blow out your ear drums did it, pt?
> Dare to be different.
> Make your music memorable.
That's good advice. I think all the good players are trying to do this.
> Pt
The only other thing I can say is hang in there, Pt, keep listening.
.........joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Pt
wrote:
>"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
>> This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
>
>I'm certainly not insulted in any way but there is a certain irony here that
>I feel merits comment. 8-)
>
>> You guys all sound the same.
>
>Oh Man! That's rich, baby! 8-)
>
>Didn't you just post something to the effect that you have spent your life
>playing loud music through a cranked Marshall 100 watt 2203 amp?
No, I said that I played loud.
Far from cranked.
>
>
>> I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
>> play.
>
>That marshall did'nt blow out your ear drums did it, pt?
What?
>
>
>> Dare to be different.
>> Make your music memorable.
>
>That's good advice. I think all the good players are trying to do this.
>
>
>> Pt
>
>The only other thing I can say is hang in there, Pt, keep listening.
>.........joe
Joe, in all honesty.
Most of the players in this group are excellent and quite deversified
in their styles.
You are one of players I appreciate in this group.
I think I said that more than once.
My goal with posting this message is to try to get people to open up
more with their playing.
I have been playing through a Marshall.
How many jazzers do you hear playing with Marshall distortion?
But I have been playing for over 40 years and have used many amps,
many styles and many volumes.
I don't expect to change any of the jazz purists who have dedicated
their lives and careers in to sounding the way they do.
But hopefully those of us who like to experiment with jazz will open
up to not playing just one style of music.
As I stated I intended no insult to anyone.
Maybe it's just time for some people to try something different.
Uniqueness puts us one step ahead of the rest.
Pt
Joe Finn
Pat: I don't feel the need to encourage you to post a clip or anything but
I'd like you to give the music another listen. It's worth another chance.
Lippincott plays nothing like Van Sant and Goldstein plays nothing like me.
Tim Berens, Ted Vieira, Steve Carter and Doug Proper all sound quite
distinct from one another to me. These guys are all solid players with well
developed and unique concepts of time, melody, harmony and improvisation.
I've listened to each of these players closely and have learned things from
all of them.
All I'm saying is don't be to quick to say it's all the same. To me they all
sound different. Give it another listen. You'll be doing yourself a favor.
Joe Finn
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:45:03 -0400, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net>
> wrote:
>
> >"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
> >> This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
> >
> >I'm certainly not insulted in any way but there is a certain irony here
that
> >I feel merits comment. 8-)
> >
> >> You guys all sound the same.
> >
> >Oh Man! That's rich, baby! 8-)
> >
> >Didn't you just post something to the effect that you have spent your
life
> >playing loud music through a cranked Marshall 100 watt 2203 amp?
>
>
> No, I said that I played loud.
> Far from cranked.
Here is your quote pasted from the "too loud" thread:
"I love the sound of a cranked Marshall tube amp in the morning."
So you love the sound but don't actually play that way yourself, right?
Sorry man, I'm just having a little fun with you. No offense intended. 8-)
>
> Joe, in all honesty.
> Most of the players in this group are excellent and quite deversified
> in their styles.
> You are one of players I appreciate in this group.
Thanks, Pat! I appreciate the support. .....joe
Pt
wrote:
>"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:3igskv0b9mvrqrs45...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:45:03 -0400, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
>> >> This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
>> >
>> >I'm certainly not insulted in any way but there is a certain irony here
>that
>> >I feel merits comment. 8-)
>> >
>> >> You guys all sound the same.
>> >
>> >Oh Man! That's rich, baby! 8-)
>> >
>> >Didn't you just post something to the effect that you have spent your
>life
>> >playing loud music through a cranked Marshall 100 watt 2203 amp?
>>
>>
>> No, I said that I played loud.
>> Far from cranked.
>
>Here is your quote pasted from the "too loud" thread:
>
> "I love the sound of a cranked Marshall tube amp in the morning."
>
>So you love the sound but don't actually play that way yourself, right?
>
>Sorry man, I'm just having a little fun with you. No offense intended. 8-)
>
It's Ok Joe.
Did you ever hear a cranked 100 watt Marshall JMP 2203?
It is very dangerous to play that loud.
But there was a time when I did do it in the 60's.
William Barkin
pithy observation of yours? I find the comment "You guys all sound the
same" as a set up...each one of these guys has their own unique
approach/sound...you might not be able to identify the player but you ought
to be able to recognize that the music is being created by DIFFERENT
musicians....I'm confident that if you had all them play the tune My
Romance, you would have to be seriously hearing impaired to not hear each
jazz guitarist's personal approach...they all do not sound the same...
Jeez, Pat where are you coming from?
-Bill
--------------------------
William Barkin - Fine Artist
Online Portfolio
http://www.bcn.net/~wbarkin
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
don judy
Hey Pt,
I see where you're coming from on that, and you're right in
a way, but it's difficult to tell a lot of players of many instruments
apart from others who play the same instrument. Guitar has a
lot of tonal possibilities, with amplification it has more. I don't
hear people using sustain to get more sax like, I hear little
successful use of sustain in jazz. Sometimes it seems like it's
more important to most jazz gitguys get hip little approaches to harmony
than to just believe in their melodic and creative sense.
But that archtop tone can just sound so nice!
I think Kevin Van Sant gets beautiful tone and has a mastery
of chord melody improv that's unique and personal. I like Clif's
blues infused soloing, Ken Rose sounds great, and Jimmy Bruno
sounds to me like one of the best 5 or so guitarists on the planet
in any style. Tom Lippincott has a tremendous ability, there aren't
a lot of guys around improvising fingerstyle like that. Ken Willinger
phrases nicely and writes an interesting tune, what could be more
important than that? All in all some fine players and I don't mean
to slight others, those are just the ones that stand out right away
for me. There are a few who I just don't get turned on by their
style at all, but for the most part I even like the stuff that doesn't
jump out from the crowd. Then again, I don't think of musicians
as artists as much as craftsmen. That Artist stuff and the fame
notoriety/jmoney that could go along with it are for the most part
anomalous results of the growth of radio and mass distribution of
music for money from the first third of the century previous on.
For every dollar made by a musician from records, distribution
guys, record company execs, managers and other people who
a musician would think were secondary have probably made
hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Just go out and play and
enjoy the moment, enjoy the pay if you get it, enjoy what you get to
hear. Life is too freakin' short. Too too too. And don't lose your
attitude, I love that.
dj
Gibson335v
BTW, there are a lot of diverse sounds on this group - Tom L has a very
different sound than Joe, for exanmple. My agreement was with the fact that I
think jazz guitarists as a group - self included - sometimes get into sound
ruts. It could be that this is simply a reflection of what the record companies
are selling, but if you randomly pick out a series of guitarists in the store,
I dare say there will be a certain sameness.
Of course, if you know where to look you can find as much diversity as you
want.
Have I just contradicted myself? LOL
Well, anyhoo, I'm trying to be different and get better - maybe when I grow up
I will be half as good as some of you - that sounded sarcastic, but it's not.
Lots of great players here....
But, everyone has to beware of the comfortable music rut....
Okay, I'll shut up....
Vince
Pt
wrote:
>
>"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
>> This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
>>
>> Through the years I have listened to clips from many people in this
>> group and even though this does not hold true for everyone, it does
>> for the majority.
>>
>> You guys all sound the same.
>> I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
>> play.
>>
>> Guitarists that I can always tell apart are those with a particular
>> style of their own.
>>
>> Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Eric Clapton, George
>> Harrison, Les Paul , Duane Eddy, Jimmy Bruno, Link Wray, Django,
>> Charlie Christian and many more.
>>
>> Dare to be different.
>> Make your music memorable.
>>
>> Pt
>
>
>Hey Pt,
>
And don't lose your
>attitude, I love that.
>
>dj
>
I really don't have an attitude.
I think and hope this thread opened some already great players to the
fact that they can be even better.
I would hate to have to spend my life in an elevator.
The music would drive my nuts.
Pt
Greger Hoel
I agree with you to some extent, especially in regards to technique.
Bear in mind though that I haven't heard that many soundclips from
here, before you start the flamefest. Anyway, most of the players
here I've listened to play with that slightly dark archtop sound and
stick to standard jazz techniques; like never doing bends, and trying
to make slurs not sound like slurs. Things like that. But OTOH, these
players do this for a reason (or so I'm pretty sure of :P): That's the
way they like it.
I was kinda surprised the other day when I checked out Joe's new
clips. His playing sounded more loose and funky and devil may care
than most archtop jazzers, IMHO. Very nice stuff.
--
Greger
______________________________________________
What's up Chuck?
To email me, replace everything after @ with softhome.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Carroll
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> "Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:aldskvg2p3mg3eqhg...@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:07:09 GMT, "Rick Ross"
> > <rickro...@netscape.net> wrote:
> >
> > >pat
> > >don't mean to insult but i don't believe I have ever run across a clip of
> > >yours.....why don't you post something to Dick's site so we can share in
> > >your uniqueness:)
> > >
> > I don't make clips nor do I profess to be unique.
> > I am just be part of the majority.
> > Pt
>
> Pat: I don't feel the need to encourage you to post a clip or anything but
> I'd like you to give the music another listen. It's worth another chance.
> Lippincott plays nothing like Van Sant and Goldstein plays nothing like me.
> Tim Berens, Ted Vieira, Steve Carter and Doug Proper all sound quite
> distinct from one another to me. These guys are all solid players with well
> developed and unique concepts of time, melody, harmony and improvisation.
>
> I've listened to each of these players closely and have learned things from
> all of them.
>
> All I'm saying is don't be to quick to say it's all the same. To me they all
> sound different. Give it another listen. You'll be doing yourself a favor.
> .......joe
I agree. It may just be that you don't yet know how to discern defining
nuances that others are able to without a second thought.
Steve
Kevin Van Sant
message <mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com> :
>You guys all sound the same.
>I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
>play.
Tell me who sounds like me... I'll sue 'em dammit!
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Kevin Van Sant
message <3igskv0b9mvrqrs45...@4ax.com> :
>But hopefully those of us who like to experiment with jazz will open
>up to not playing just one style of music.
Something that some people who don't know jazz music very well seem to
do is lump all jazz music into one identity as though "jazz" meant one
thing. Man there are sooooo many styles of music under the jazz
umbrella. I feel like I listen to and play a ton of styles of music,
yet I also can say, as far as what I play and primarily listen to,
it's all jazz. But rather exploring different styles to sound
different, my goal, which is one that develops both consciously and
hopefully on its own organically (and inevitably), is that through
internalizing all the music I listen to and churning all that around
with my own ideas, that I cultivate a sound, a voice, that is uniquely
and honestly mine. I don't want to sound different when I play a
bossa from when I play a backbeat, I want to sound the same. I want
my voice to transcend any stylistic barriers so that whether it's a
straight up swing, or a spacious floating vibe, or a driving
take-no-prisoners groove, or whatever context I might find myself in,
that my voice still sounds true and unmistakably mine. This is a
characteristic common to virtually all of my favorite players.
Kevin Van Sant
message <3igskv0b9mvrqrs45...@4ax.com> :
>My goal with posting this message is to try to get people to open up
>more with their playing.
>I have been playing through a Marshall.
>How many jazzers do you hear playing with Marshall distortion?
Experimenting with sounds and styles in jazz music goes a lot deeper
than simply plugging into a distorted marshall from time to time.
thom_j.
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:a66tkv0kp99jn09vq...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:30:03 GMT, Pt <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> message <mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com> :
>
>
> >You guys all sound the same.
> >I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
> >play.
>
>
> Tell me who sounds like me... I'll sue 'em dammit!
>
Spike Jones? :8^)' sorry my bad, lucifer made me do it.. cheers t.j.
Jack A. Zucker
may need to do some more listening because it's often the novice
player/listener that thinks Pat Martino sounds just like George Benson or
that BB King sounds just like Albert King or that Jimi Hendrix sounds just
like SRV or that Brecker sounds just like Coltrane and so on and so forth...
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
Mike O'Malley
Ok, so why make it in the form of an accusation then? Why not just
make a post about the importance of originality?
> You guys all sound the same.
There's the accusation--broad and general
> I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
> play.
You need to listen harder. Its' true that to people who don't know
what they are talking about, all rock guitarists sound alike, all tele
and compressor wielding country players sound alike, and all classical
violinists sound alike--within a certain genre, they "sound alike" if
you don't have a good ear. Within a given genre, they are going to
sound enough alike so you recognize and identify the genre.
> Guitarists that I can always tell apart are those with a particular
> style of their own.
>
> Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Eric Clapton, George
> Harrison, Les Paul , Duane Eddy, Jimmy Bruno, Link Wray, Django,
> Charlie Christian and many more.
Each one of these guys plays in recognizable genre, except maybe les
paul, who recorded as jazz, country and pop
> Dare to be different.
Umm, different from what? Dare to be different--just like these guys!
It's a ridiculous and nonsensical phrase. Which one of these players
are you suggesting is the model of being different? Different from
who? Or different like who? Each one plays "like" somebody else, even
if you can recognize their playing when you hear it, and each plays in
a genre.
The command to be "different" itself is absurd-we already are
different, inevitably. it makes no sense--dare to be different from
what? I don't have to "dare" to be different, I already am. If I'm not
"different" enough so that you recognize my playing, so what? I need
to change my playing, so you can hear a difference? In other words, I
need to "dare to be different," in order to please you? How is that
being different?
> Make your music memorable.
I always remember my music--i remember it as a search for a voice and
a pleasing tone and a groping towards some form of personal connection
between myself, the logic of music, and others. I try all the time to
make it memorable--I don't need some blowhard telling me to make it
memorable, or telling me to stop sounding like everyone else. And let
me say, I am no great player--just a guy struggling in all humility to
find a voice that feels right. if that voice sounds just like Charlie
Christian, so fucking what? The demand that we all be different" is an
insult to the human bonds, the bonds of knowledge and experience, that
connect us all. I am no great guitarist, but I dont' tell other people
how to play--and if I do offer comments they aren't as self subverting
and incoherent as "dare to be different by imitating some of these
famous guys."
>
> Pt
This is an asinine post--it's an insult disguised as a plea for
originality. And it's REALLY bullshit to say "YOU GUYS all sound
alike, and not post examples of your distinct and original sound.
Greg D
I responded to Pat as well, stating that I thought the 3 guys I mentioned
sounded different but that I had not a/b'ed enough to make a blanket
statement one way or the other on originality.
If we step back and don't take Pt literally, but look at only the
generalities, we find that perception is truth regardless of what truth
really is. It is Pat's perception that folks hereabouts sound similar, as
if they are more a part of a single or perhaps hybrid music consciousness
than dozens of independent minds.
Isn't it Jim Hall who doesn't listen to other jazz guitarists to ensure
he keeps his style pure?
Intellectually, I can understand Pat's point: strive for individual
expression and don't worry if you sound as good as or like so-and-so.
If you think about it, his point gives you a sense of freedom to be who
you are - good, bad or indifferent.
Lord help me, if this is what Pat was thinking. If so, I'm too close to
this thread, feeling more like a detective who has to think like the bad
guy, riding that fine line between the criminal mind and good detective
work.
Greg
tomw
says...
> perception is truth regardless of what truth
> really is
>
"belief" with "truth".
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Bob R
tw25R...@cornell.edu wrote on 8/29/03 8:24 AM:
> In article <Xns93E5E90EF17...@68.1.17.6>, oas...@cox.net
> says...
>> perception is truth regardless of what truth
>> really is
>>
> No, it isn't. Perception is often erroneous. Let's not confuse
> "belief" with "truth".
Perception is perception. If you perceive that there's a tiger under your
bed and there's not really one there, you're scared to get out of bed and
the rest of the world thinks you're a doofus.
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Mark Kleinhaut
"Rick Ross" <rickro...@netscape.net> wrote:
>pat
>don't mean to insult but i don't believe I have ever run across a clip of
>yours.....why don't you post something to Dick's site so we can share in
>your uniqueness:)
>
Hey Rick, not that it's my role to play NG cop, but your comment here is
really no different than Mr. Womble's infamous assertions that opinions are
only as valuable or credible as one's playing abilities. You may also recall
some of the lowbrow arguments the normally gentlemanly Mr. Finn resorted
to some months back when he attacked the soundclips/ability of Mr. Russell
in an attempt to discredit his opinions of some tune's chord changes?
Pat doesn't need to any level of prequalification to voice his opinions.
That said, how one chooses to respond (if at all) ultimately speaks to issues
of mutual respect, or lack thereof.
So now Rick, say 10 hail Marys and change your strings!
http://www.markkleinhaut.com
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com
markkl...@hotmail.com
Mike O'Malley
> Mike,
>
> I responded to Pat as well, stating that I thought the 3 guys I mentioned
> sounded different but that I had not a/b'ed enough to make a blanket
> statement one way or the other on originality.
>
> If we step back and don't take Pt literally, but look at only the
> generalities, we find that perception is truth regardless of what truth
> really is. It is Pat's perception that folks hereabouts sound similar, as
> if they are more a part of a single or perhaps hybrid music consciousness
> than dozens of independent minds.
Appreciate your response greg, but effectively, this is just mush--ok,
everyone's opinion is equally good. So what? What's the purpose of
speaking to each other then? I agree people sound similar--that's
"genre:" we all know there are certain genres--rockabilly, bluegrass,
Bop, etc.. It's great that people sound similar--it allows them to
speak to each other more clearly, like people who understand the same
language. In fact, it'd be close to impossibe to make music
collectively if everyone was completely different. Sometimes throwing
a bluegrass payer into a classical setting is cool, but most of the
time they can't talk to each other musically. They may be able to
appreciate each other, as I might appreciate an African tribal mask,
but I can talk much more effectively to a quintet with five copies of
"the Real Book." You have to have a high degree of sameness to make
musical conversation,most of the time.
>
> Intellectually, I can understand Pat's point: strive for individual
> expression and don't worry if you sound as good as or like so-and-so.
OK, but then why give us a list of examples of guys we're supposed to
sound like, or take as models of how to sound "different?" I mean, if
his point is what you say, then why ever give a list of other players?
Aren't other players irrelevant if the point is being entirely
dfferent?
>
> If you think about it, his point gives you a sense of freedom to be who
> you are - good, bad or indifferent.
>
I already had that before his post--his post gives me a headache
because it's incoherent. In fact, it was already impossible for me to
be anyone other than who I am. If "who I am" sounds a lot like Charlie
Christian, or Eric Clapton, or Django, that does not diminish my
individuality one bit.
It's foolish to waste time trying deliberately to be different--the
point is to speak in a voice that is confortable, deep, effective, and
fits. The search for that voice is endless
No offense meant to you--you're obviously a pacific, tolerant
guy--bravo. Truth may be subjective, but I know gibberish when I see
it, and PT's post was gigibbersish, and insulting.
Now, a thread on the tension between individual difference and group
language in music making would be very interesting. But not if it
started by saying "you guys sxound all alike--you should sound more
like these guys, who don't sound all alike" Yeesh.
>
Greg D
news:MPG.19b91026d...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu:
> In article <Xns93E5E90EF17...@68.1.17.6>, oas...@cox.net
> says...
>> perception is truth regardless of what truth
>> really is
>>
> No, it isn't. Perception is often erroneous. Let's not confuse
> "belief" with "truth".
I guess this begs the larger question: what is truth?
GReg
Rick Ross
sound the same..."..ugh!
you need to change flatwounds?
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f4f5116$1...@127.0.0.1...
Kevin Van Sant
message <Xns93E6646F0B7...@68.1.17.6> :
>
>I guess this begs the larger question: what is truth?
truth is.
tomw
says...
Jurupari
yeah, but the same way as underwear...only when something breaks or
unravels...
I can usually id most of you guys within a couple of bars, the folks I've heard
a few times anyway, but I still think I know where PT's coming from.
If you're one of the many who keeps chasing George Benson's pick technique, a
little sameness is bound to creep in. Also if you're inclined to compound
every line out until you're playing as fast as you can at that tempo, the same
thing will happen.
And to some extent if everyone studies out of the same several books, that
could engender sameness.
There are a lot of factors that will do this - playing on an archtop, even, or
trying to phrase a certain way, or sacrificing your creativity to play
something closer to home that you won't possibly flub.
Really I don't think the guys I've heard a few times have any problems *at all*
with personal identity through their playing, and some of it is as good as
you'll find anywhere else on earth, but I think I'd say just about without
reservation that we ALL spend too much time playing as fast as we can or as
much as we can, or as evenly in time as we can, and as a result our creativity
most likely suffers.
Also, I didn't read 'I'm creative and you're not' into PT's post in any way at
all. He was articulating something that had a little truth in it for some of
us, and I'd include myself in that. A lot of my pet phrases certainly must
have started out as somebody else's.
What I really hate is if I sound alike...that is if I can't come up with a few
to quite a few alternate ways to do the same song, and to think about the
improvisation in different ways in different areas of the song.
Also I'd like to get better at dumping my own cliches, both linear and
harmonic, and coming up with at least a fresh approach to triteness once in
awhile.
It's something I try to work on just to avoid getting stale, or if I find
myself too comfortable with a tune the way I usually play it. That's exactly
why I never wrote out arrangements, but just learned the songs in a basic way
to do solo and let the rest sort of evolve.
I really wish I were a lot better than I am at it, though.
Clif Kuplen
Jonathan Giblin
be something to this, but I have a little different take on it. While I
don't agree that everyone here sounds the same, there are traps that even
the most artistically ambitious musicians can fall into.
I heard a local guy a couple weeks ago (not from this newsgroup) who has
mounds of chops, knows all the hip licks, has an interesting harmonic
concept, can draw on a myriad of harmonic choices and generally plays very,
very well -- but he played with no discernable passion. It was really kind
of dull. There wasn't a lot of phrasing going on, he mostly played within a
narrow range of the fingerboard and every note was about as loud as every
other note. Hip but passionless.
Maybe he was just having a bad night; that can happen to anyone. But there
is something of a groupthink mentality among jazz players, maybe especially
guitarists. And it's easy to fall back on everything you know and all the
chops you've acquired when your feeling tired or just uninspired. It's also
easy to fall back on the licks you've practiced and the extended scales and
modes you've worked so hard to refine. It's also tempting to try to be so
modern and advanced in your harmonic approach that other aspects of making
music get ignored. I think this is especially true of players who don't try
to reflect the blues roots of jazz (not to start with the Wamblisms) and try
to remain completely aloof from "unpure" influences like R&B. There are
people who can take a totally cerebral approach to music and make it
interesting... but not very many. For me, music has to feel good too.
I'm trying to work through this business of playing the blues in my jazz
playing without resorting to all the hackneyed stuff we've all heard before.
Trying to marry a modern harmonic concept with bluesy phrasing, syncopation
and some occasional space between the notes. Trying to use the complete
range of the instrument and create surprises that bend the listener's ear
from time to time without making the kinds of constant harmonic extension
that can become tedious. Trying to bring dynamic range and phrasing and
maybe even a little funk to my playing, and not just trying to play fast and
hip.
I ain't saying I've got this game down or anything (flamesuit on just in
case). It's just something I'm working on. But for me, I think it's the
right tack to take. Sometimes I think that when people accuse jazz musicians
of all sounding the same, this is the kind of stuff they're trying to get
at.
Just my 2 cents worth....
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
> This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
>
> Through the years I have listened to clips from many people in this
> group and even though this does not hold true for everyone, it does
> for the majority.
>
> You guys all sound the same.
> I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
> play.
>
> Guitarists that I can always tell apart are those with a particular
> style of their own.
>
> Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Eric Clapton, George
> Harrison, Les Paul , Duane Eddy, Jimmy Bruno, Link Wray, Django,
> Charlie Christian and many more.
>
Jurupari
>
>
>truth is.
..is NOT!!
Pt
Music is truth!
Pt
Joe Finn
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:02:26 -0400, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net>
> wrote:
>
> >"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:45:03 -0400, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
> >> >> This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
> >> >
here
> >that
> >> >I feel merits comment. 8-)
> >> >
> >> >> You guys all sound the same.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Didn't you just post something to the effect that you have spent your
> >life
> >> >playing loud music through a cranked Marshall 100 watt 2203 amp?
> >>
> >>
> >> No, I said that I played loud.
> >> Far from cranked.
> >
> >Here is your quote pasted from the "too loud" thread:
> >
> > "I love the sound of a cranked Marshall tube amp in the morning."
> >
> >So you love the sound but don't actually play that way yourself, right?
> >
> >Sorry man, I'm just having a little fun with you. No offense intended.
8-)
> >
>
> It's Ok Joe.
> Did you ever hear a cranked 100 watt Marshall JMP 2203?
> It is very dangerous to play that loud.
> But there was a time when I did do it in the 60's.
No man, I never heard anything like that. ......joe
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Joe Finn
"Greger Hoel" <gre...@spamblock.net> wrote
>
> I was kinda surprised the other day when I checked out Joe's new
> clips. His playing sounded more loose and funky and devil may care
> than most archtop jazzers, IMHO. Very nice stuff.
Thank you, man. It was a funky session. The rest of the album is pretty
loose too. Everything I kept was a one take sort of thing. We didn't
rehearse either. I just like to let it rip sometimes.
Like what the hell, right? ......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
bob r
tw25R...@cornell.edu wrote on 8/29/03 10:18 AM:
>> I guess this begs the larger question: what is truth?
>>
>> GReg
>>
> Yeah, but that would be the "alt.blowhards" newsgroup. :)
Right. Here, the approved question is "what is jazz?"
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD available: http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Pt
wrote:
>
>"Greger Hoel" <gre...@spamblock.net> wrote
>>
>> I was kinda surprised the other day when I checked out Joe's new
>> clips. His playing sounded more loose and funky and devil may care
>> than most archtop jazzers, IMHO. Very nice stuff.
>
>
> Thank you, man. It was a funky session. The rest of the album is pretty
>loose too. Everything I kept was a one take sort of thing. We didn't
>rehearse either. I just like to let it rip sometimes.
>
>Like what the hell, right? ......joe
I like it too.
Pt
Gerry Scott-Moore
Zucker <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> On the one hand, I agree with you and on the other hand, I think that you
> may need to do some more listening because it's often the novice
> player/listener that thinks Pat Martino sounds just like George Benson or
> that BB King sounds just like Albert King or that Jimi Hendrix sounds just
> like SRV or that Brecker sounds just like Coltrane and so on and so forth...
Agreed. The same as the newbie to wine drinking. They all taste the
same until you acquire a palette. It takes an aesthetic that knows,
and recognizes the minor categoric distinctions.
--
///---
tomw
Holly...@access4cheap.com says...
> I'm trying to work through this business of playing the blues in my jazz
> playing without resorting to all the hackneyed stuff we've all heard before.
> Trying to marry a modern harmonic concept with bluesy phrasing, syncopation
> and some occasional space between the notes.
>
sounded to my ears that he was playing "connect the blue tones". That
is, he was playing blue tones on the strong beats and using various
means(scales, arps, intervals) to lead him to those tones.
Jurupari
>> playing without resorting to all the hackneyed stuff we've all heard
>before.
>> Trying to marry a modern harmonic concept with bluesy phrasing, syncopation
practice bending a note with any finger up or down a whole tone, and work on
bends with vibrato if you want that too to jazz phrases instead of just
articulaing them in unbent notes.
Some of the typical blues bends if offset and applied to a phrase out of a
different scale work really well to put blues articulation into regular jazz or
bop phrases without sounding cliche.
You won't be bending the same tones, but you'll be getting some of the same
intervals, or moving them up or down a half step. I've been doing that for a
really long time.
Clif Kuplen
Pt
I like that.
I'll try it but not with the GR-30.
Thanks Clif.
Pt
Flibbert Goosty
> This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
>
> group and even though this does not hold true for everyone, it does
> for the majority.
>
> play.
>
> Guitarists that I can always tell apart are those with a particular
> style of their own.
>
> Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Eric Clapton, George
> Harrison, Les Paul , Duane Eddy, Jimmy Bruno, Link Wray, Django,
> Charlie Christian and many more.
>
> Dare to be different.
> Make your music memorable.
>
> Pt
Sometimes it takes a long time to sound like yourself. Most of the
players you mentioned lived in a time where cross-pollenation of ideas
due to easily
accessable info in the form of cd's, books, instructional videos, etc,
just werent avail. Thus these guys tended to develop more or less
independently
of each other. Today there is so much more to be shared and absorbed
and the
plus side of that is there are many many wonderful jazz guitarists out
there including quite a few in this group. The down side is that many
of today's players (and this is not exclusive of just guitar players)
are all trancribing the same shit which leads to alot of them sounding
very similar. When you you come to the realization that you have to
get it on your own, then you start moving past just being derivative
of somebody else's
playing style, and you're on your way to putting your own unique DNA
on whatever your playing.
Cheers,
Flibby
Formerly Sideways
I really thought Pt's comment was harmless and kind of right on....in
the way I understand it.
Long ago I posted a couple of times that I'd like to hear more
guitarists play jazz with some tube overdrive, a little delay and some
semi-screaming sustain.
I hear a lot of stylistic difference between say, Russell Malone and
Randy Johnston but I feel that both of them often favor an overly dark
and flat tone.
I could say the same for the
archtop-with-flatwounds-through-a-polytone-or-other-ss tone that many
on the board favor. A lot of great players with stylistic
differences, mind you, but sometimes it blurs together (to me) in the
same-ness of the somewhat muddy tone. And, no doubt, many times a
great tone is achieved with that kind of gear setup.
That's one reason I gravitated toward Bob's playing. Not only is he
playing some wild stuff, but "Watch This" features a lot of change ups
in tone.
Recently I picked up Larry Coryell's "Power Trio Live in Chicago."
Now, for those of you who missed it, "Cedars of Avalon" is an
excellent straightahead cd with no effects at all, but on "Power
Trio," I actually found myself enjoying (gasp) the chorus effect he
uses here and there. I wouldn't want to hear it all the time on
everything, but it gives this cd a little extra spark.
Ironically, I find myself playing with no effects and little (natural)
overdrive at the moment because my bandmates prefer it that way. I
always thought I'd be using a little delay and (pedal) overdrive in
this band, but hey, what works, works and I've still got the tube amp
barking here and there with some amp tremolo and reverb mixed in.
Anyway, really, lighten up a bit. My take is that Pt would just like
to hear some different sounds and textures. I agree.
Joe Finn
Thank you, Pat, man. .....joe
Jonathan Byrd
>
> Dare to be different.
> Make your music memorable.
Great topic, Pat. I'm fascinated by what it means to be creative
within the boundaries of one's art (or science for that matter).
A few very special people seem to be able to create good stuff without
ever really knowing the rules of their discipline. For the most part,
people who don't understand the rules make crap. Most people need to
spend many years assimilating the rules before there is any
possibility for them to transcend the rules in a meaningful way.
As others have insightfully observed on this newsgroup, it seems like
the things that make us stand out from the crowd are often the things
we like least about ourselves. I actually like my playing best when I
sound like a typical, anonymous, jazz guitarist. But then, I'm just a
beginner (and probably always will be). For me, trying to be
different for the sake of being memorable would not be a worthwhile
gesture; the memories I would leave would probably not lead to future
playing opportunities.
Jonathan Byrd
>
> Perception is perception. If you perceive that there's a tiger under your
> bed and there's not really one there, you're scared to get out of bed and
Can't go along with you there, Bob. If there were no tiger under the
bed, you could not perceive it. You could perceive something else,
and believe it was a tiger, but you could not perceive (i.e.,
experience with your senses) something that does not exist.
> the rest of the world thinks you're a doofus.
That I'll go along with.
thom_j.
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:3f4f7...@corp.newsgroups.com...
You should be onstage with 20 of them behind.. Now thats
crankin it up! :8^)'.. cheers t.j.
thom_j.
> bed and there's not really one there, you're scared to get out of bed and
> the rest of the world thinks you're a doofus.
I thought this was feline'tiger'phobia? :8^)'... t.j.
Bob R
j...@isu.edu wrote on 8/29/03 4:30 PM:
> Bob R <br...@reality.net> wrote in message
> news:<BB74C4A2.1EA8D%br...@reality.net>...
>>
>> Perception is perception. If you perceive that there's a tiger under your
>> bed and there's not really one there, you're scared to get out of bed and
>
> Can't go along with you there, Bob. If there were no tiger under the
> bed, you could not perceive it. You could perceive something else,
> and believe it was a tiger, but you could not perceive (i.e.,
> experience with your senses) something that does not exist.
How about hallucinations? If "to experience with the senses" were the only
definition of "perceive", I'd agree with you. But there's also the
definition "to take intellectual cognizance of; to apprehend by the mind; to
be convinced of by direct intuition; to note; to remark; to discern; to see;
to understand". By this definition, a deluded or deranged person could
"perceive" things that don't exist.
Mike O'Malley
> Gosh, imagine people in this group being overly sensitive.
>
> I really thought Pt's comment was harmless and kind of right on....in
> the way I understand it.
>
> Long ago I posted a couple of times that I'd like to hear more
> guitarists play jazz with some tube overdrive, a little delay and some
> semi-screaming sustain.
Umm....is this how we should, "dare to be different--by playing more
like fusion guys? So the point is not "dare to be different" it's
"dare to play more like this?" Dare to using screaming sustain an a
delay unit? That's different? I mean, I hear that on beer commercials
all day
> Anyway, really, lighten up a bit. My take is that Pt would just like
> to hear some different sounds and textures. I agree.
So why not just go listen to them (or better yet, make them!), instead
of telling a bunch of people they all sound too much alike, by which
you actually mean "you all don't sound enough like what i like." "You
guys are not playing the way I like to hear?" I mean, that's just rank
hypocrisy, and the annoying thing is that it's a call for conformity
disguised as a ridiculous call to be "Different." Like I said,
different from what?
I'm light man. I'm not the one telling other people how to play
Jack A. Zucker
"Mike O'Malley" <moma...@gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:87d03efb.03082...@posting.google.com...
> twot...@hotmail.com (Formerly Sideways) wrote in message
news:<db420ccf.03082...@posting.google.com>...
> > Gosh, imagine people in this group being overly sensitive.
> >
> > I really thought Pt's comment was harmless and kind of right on....in
> > the way I understand it.
> >
> > Long ago I posted a couple of times that I'd like to hear more
> > guitarists play jazz with some tube overdrive, a little delay and some
> > semi-screaming sustain.
>
> Umm....is this how we should, "dare to be different--by playing more
> like fusion guys? So the point is not "dare to be different" it's
> "dare to play more like this?" Dare to using screaming sustain an a
> delay unit? That's different? I mean, I hear that on beer commercials
> all day
Umm - Why is playing with tube overdrive playing like fusion guys ?!? What's
a fusion guy anyway? Martino used distortion on a few recordings as did
Metheny and even Joe Pass. Are they fusion guys?
And is Holdsworth a jazzer because he did an album with a jazz pianist using
a clean tone.
Labels are for record stores. Let's just make music.
Greg D
news:0jT3b.20291$2Y6.6...@news2.news.adelphia.net:
>
> "Mike O'Malley" <moma...@gmu.edu> wrote in message
> news:87d03efb.03082...@posting.google.com...
>> twot...@hotmail.com (Formerly Sideways) wrote in message
> news:<db420ccf.03082...@posting.google.com>...
>> > Gosh, imagine people in this group being overly sensitive.
>> >
>> > I really thought Pt's comment was harmless and kind of right
>> > on....in the way I understand it.
>> >
>> > Long ago I posted a couple of times that I'd like to hear more
>> > guitarists play jazz with some tube overdrive, a little delay and
>> > some semi-screaming sustain.
>>
>> Umm....is this how we should, "dare to be different--by playing more
>> like fusion guys? So the point is not "dare to be different" it's
>> "dare to play more like this?" Dare to using screaming sustain an a
>> delay unit? That's different? I mean, I hear that on beer commercials
>> all day
>
> Umm - Why is playing with tube overdrive playing like fusion guys ?!?
And weren't all the early amps used by CC and Wes M tube amps prone to
distortion whether they wanted it or not?
> What's a fusion guy anyway? Martino used distortion on a few
> recordings as did Metheny and even Joe Pass. Are they fusion guys?
>
> And is Holdsworth a jazzer because he did an album with a jazz pianist
> using a clean tone.
>
> Labels are for record stores. Let's just make music.
There ya go! Good point, Jack.
Greg
thom_j.
> Labels are for record stores. Let's just make music.
Makes sense to me... :8^).. t.j.
Rbsoul
It's hard enough for me to play the instrument the way I want to play it, never
mind trying to sound like someone else!!
I was never very good at copping other peoples licks and always had trouble
with the bands I've played in (and still do) playing covers "exactly" as they
were recorded by the original band. But I've never really wanted to sound like
someone else. I just want to be able to express my musical emotion as best I
can. Through trial and error...and subliminally aquiring influences of sounds
I've loved throughout my life...I've become the voice that I am on my
instrument. My assumption is that most of the cats on this NG progress
similarly in their personal development of their style as time goes on. The
sound changes occasionally with the addition or subtraction of various tools
but the self is constant and hopefully growing stronger all the while
integrating outside influences. Pretty much all guitarists I've listened to on
this NG have their own voice. No one really sounds alike...but they all sound
like Guitarists. And they should...no matter how much they want to sound like a
basoon.
Hey DJ, thanks for the nice compliment. I'm flattered to be mentioned in the
luminous company you put me in. You must have made a mistake. I think you might
want to adjust that hearing aid!
Ken Willinger
Hear my clips at:
http://www.soundclick.com/kenwillinger
Formerly Sideways
posture at all.
moma...@gmu.edu (Mike O'Malley) wrote .> So why not just go listen to
them (or better yet, make them!), instead
> of telling a bunch of people they all sound too much alike,
I certainly did *not* say a bunch of people sounded too much alike, I
made a rather specific comment on a certain type of classic jazz
guitar tone while noting that I recognized stylistic differences
between players.
by which> you actually mean "you all don't sound enough like what i
like." "You> guys are not playing the way I like to hear?"
No, not what I mean at all. I mean there's room for the tasteful and
varied use of non-traditional jazz sounds to play straightahead
material. Bob Russell's cd has some examples, to some extent
Coryell's live cd has some examples, a cut on Jack's site called (as I
recall) "JB's Gone Funky" is another example. Not "beer commercial"
tone, just different.
I mean, that's just rank> hypocrisy,
Hypocrisy? What's up with that? What a ridiculous term for my (or
Pt's for that matter) harmless little observation.
and the annoying thing is that it's a call for conformity
> disguised as a ridiculous call to be "Different." Like I said,
> different from what
I don't see a lot of conformity in tone or style between the classic
players that Pt mentioned, and I'm not suggesting that everybody run
out and plug into a tube screamer and analog delay. You are
completely missing the point.
I'm merely suggesting that some players *may want to consider*
occasionally varying from (what I perceive to be) the currently
prevalent straightahead jazz tone and I'll be specific: a sound
normally achieved by using the neck humbucking pickup of an archtop
strung with flatwounds and played through a solid state amp with
little or no reverb and the guitar's tone knob rolled off.
Good gosh, Grant Green's tone is significantly different than this,
Kenny Burrell's tone on Midnight Blue is significantly different than
this. Django's, Charlie Christian's, etc, etc
Furthermore, *as I said* plenty of great music is made with exactly
this set up. It just wouldn't hurt to try something different once in
a while, just like Larry Coryell did on his new cd.
>
> I'm light man. I'm not the one telling other people how to play
If you want to stick with the classic tone and set up, knock yourself
out, man, but it's ludricrous to suggest that I'm being "hypocritical"
for making the observation that there's a certain sameness to the
tones I'm hearing.
Oh yeah, right, you are light all right.
Mondoslug1
>on whatever your playing.
That's disgusting man.
My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm
Mike O'Malley
> posture at all.
you mistkae my tone, friend, I'm not hostile to you, I just think T's
post was both offensive and incoherent
> moma...@gmu.edu (Mike O'Malley) wrote .> So why not just go listen to
> them (or better yet, make them!), instead
> > of telling a bunch of people they all sound too much alike,
>
> I certainly did *not* say a bunch of people sounded too much alike, I
> made a rather specific comment on a certain type of classic jazz
> guitar tone while noting that I recognized stylistic differences
> between players.
Yes, but you also said you smetiems wanted to hear other aoudns an
textures. I mean, i do too--i't snot Lke I only listen to traditional
jazz, But when i want to hear different textures, i don't accomplish
it by telling other people to alter their playin got reflect what i
want, which is what PT did.
> by which> you actually mean "you all don't sound enough like what i
> like." "You> guys are not playing the way I like to hear?"
>
> No, not what I mean at all. I mean there's room for the tasteful and
> varied use of non-traditional jazz sounds to play straightahead
> material. Bob Russell's cd has some examples, to some extent
> Coryell's live cd has some examples, a cut on Jack's site called (as I
> recall) "JB's Gone Funky" is another example. Not "beer commercial"
> tone, just different.
>
I completely agree with you--my point was that it's very hard to tell
other people what to play, while also telling them to dare to be
different. because you have to provide examples to imitate. That's
maybe not hypocrisy, it's what they call in lit theory a
"self-subverting text." This subject often comes up as "what is jazz
tone" threads.
>
> Hypocrisy? What's up with that? What a ridiculous term for my (or
> Pt's for that matter) harmless little observation.
>
> and the annoying thing is that it's a call for conformity
> > disguised as a ridiculous call to be "Different." Like I said,
> > different from what
>
> I don't see a lot of conformity in tone or style between the classic
> players that Pt mentioned, and I'm not suggesting that everybody run
> out and plug into a tube screamer and analog delay. You are
> completely missing the point.
Nope--the conformity is not between the players, who all have a
distinct sound, it's that we are instructed to "dare to be different"
by IMITATING them. If it's not hypocrisy, maybe you'll accept
"ironic?"
> I'm merely suggesting that some players *may want to consider*
> occasionally varying from (what I perceive to be) the currently
> prevalent straightahead jazz tone and I'll be specific: a sound
> normally achieved by using the neck humbucking pickup of an archtop
> strung with flatwounds and played through a solid state amp with
> little or no reverb and the guitar's tone knob rolled off.
They probabaly already have, and since the players mentioned by PT are
"you guys"
> Good gosh, Grant Green's tone is significantly different than this,
> Kenny Burrell's tone on Midnight Blue is significantly different than
> this. Django's, Charlie Christian's, etc, etc
>
> Furthermore, *as I said* plenty of great music is made with exactly
> this set up. It just wouldn't hurt to try something different once in
> a while, just like Larry Coryell did on his new cd.
No it wouldn't, not at all. Odds are most of the "you guys" mentioned
by PT got to traditional jazz sounds FROM other sounds they played
first. What I object to is the statement "you guys all sound alike"
coupled to "you need to sound different, like these guys" I don't
think ti makes any sense and it's offensive as well
> > I'm light man. I'm not the one telling other people how to play
>
> If you want to stick with the classic tone and set up, knock yourself
> out, man, but it's ludricrous to suggest that I'm being "hypocritical"
> for making the observation that there's a certain sameness to the
> tones I'm hearing.
There's a certain sameness to all musical forms,otherwise we would not
be able to recgnize them as genre. it's not a failure of "diffrerence
or imagination necessarily: it's learnign a language
> Oh yeah, right, you are light all right.
Well it's always hard to judge tone in email
Kevin Van Sant
in message <87d03efb.03083...@posting.google.com> :
>Yes, but you also said you smetiems wanted to hear....
who are you calling a smetiem !!?!?!
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Pt
but I do miss a few now and then.
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that I can post my opinion here whether it
is right or wrong.
I have been in this group for close to ten years and I have made many
(online) friends here.
The regulars here know me and know that I mean no harm nor do I say
anything negative about them.
You seem to be taking all of this personally.
This post was not aimed at you.
I never heard of you.
The people here are among the finest musicians in the world.
Not to mention great people.
Maybe you should consider posting in alt.guitar.
You would get along well with Jarl.
Pt
D.Onstenk
In these parts you are quite "different" if you play jazz on an archtop with
traditional tone. I am one of the few archtop jazzers here against a whole
army of metal, rock, grunge and blues guitarists that all play crancked up
Marshalls and what have you.
These dudes think I am quite different I can assure you that.
I played rock and blues with the sound you seem to prefer for 20 years
before embarking on a jazz career. Frankly heavy guitar sounds bore the hell
out of me, I've been there, done it. Did not do my hearing much good either.
Glad I kicked the habit.
I find nothing of interest in that sound anymore, not even in Gambale,
Henderson and Holdsworth. Sure, all great players but that sound turns me
off nowadays.
#####
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com...
> This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
>
> Through the years I have listened to clips from many people in this
> group and even though this does not hold true for everyone, it does
> for the majority.
>
> You guys all sound the same.
> I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
> play.
>
> Guitarists that I can always tell apart are those with a particular
> style of their own.
>
> Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Eric Clapton, George
> Harrison, Les Paul , Duane Eddy, Jimmy Bruno, Link Wray, Django,
> Charlie Christian and many more.
>
> Dare to be different.
> Make your music memorable.
>
> Pt
>
Jack A. Zucker
news:biq62k$ah3dr$1...@ID-105352.news.uni-berlin.de...
> I find nothing of interest in that sound anymore, not even in Gambale,
> Henderson and Holdsworth. Sure, all great players but that sound turns me
> off nowadays.
To each his own. I feel the same way with the formulaic archtop guys. At
least the guys you mention are interesting harmonically! <ducking>
D.Onstenk
them on archtops, hehe.
#####
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> schreef in bericht
news:vj14b.20333$2Y6.6...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Jack A. Zucker
> Sure they are. I love their playing ... only that sound. I'd like to hear
> them on archtops, hehe.
I'd rather hear the artist's interpretation of his own vision and sound. :-)
D.Onstenk
#####
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> schreef in bericht
news:vq14b.20338$2Y6.6...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Kevin Van Sant
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
<vq14b.20338$2Y6.6...@news2.news.adelphia.net> :
Esactly. So what's the problem if an artist's OWN vision and sound
happens to involve an archtop and SS amp?
Jack A. Zucker
news:4ba1lvsis1n3vvf77...@4ax.com...
> Esactly. So what's the problem if an artist's OWN vision and sound
> happens to involve an archtop and SS amp?
I never said anything was wrong with it. If it's done well it's a thing of
beauty.
Jack A. Zucker
> Fair enough.
Hey - Don't get me wrong...When I hear someone like Van Ruler (spelling?!?)
I'm totally blown away and inspired.
And the older recordings of Benson and Martino are among my favorite
recordings in history...
I do think it's valid to question your goals and vision every now and then
which is what the title of this thread says to me.
Jaz
Mike O'Malley
> Mike O'Mally, I don't recall seeing any of your posts in this group
> but I do miss a few now and then.
> Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that I can post my opinion here whether it
> is right or wrong.
> I have been in this group for close to ten years and I have made many
> (online) friends here.
>
Well I never said you weren't entitled to your opnion--i just thought
the way you put it was dumb and offensive. you can post whatever you
like, of course. And look, you got a lot of responses
i'm not taking it personally--it doesn't apply to me. I dont' sound
like anyone but myself. i dont think any of the peopel here sound like
anyone but themselves either
Jack A. Zucker
I think it was inappropriate for you to be offended by PT's posting. It was
just a conversational device. Folks (including myself) take some of these
things way too personally.
It's also inappropriate for PT to judge you based on whether he's seen you
around here or not. I hate when the groups digress into herd mentality...
"Mike O'Malley" <moma...@gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:87d03efb.03083...@posting.google.com...
Keith Freeman
Precisely - didn't Wes begin his career playing carbon copies of Charlie
Christian solos?
-Keith
Audio samples and tips at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FreeKeithMan
Max Leggett
<freeke...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>> Sometimes it takes a long time to sound like yourself.
>Precisely - didn't Wes begin his career playing carbon copies of Charlie
>Christian solos?
Yup. And Diz copied Roy Eldridge note for note. And Ornette Coleman
could play Bird solos perfectly. It takes a lot of time and effort to
sound like yourself, and mostly it involves assimilating what's gone
before, i.e., sounding like someone else.
Formerly Sideways
>
> you mistkae my tone, friend, I'm not hostile to you, I just think T's
> post was both offensive and incoherent
>
Cool, sorry if I jumped back at you unnecessarily, but I still don't
think pt's intention was as negative as you are taking it.
Bob R
freeke...@compuserve.com wrote on 8/30/03 2:12 PM:
>> Sometimes it takes a long time to sound like yourself.
> Precisely - didn't Wes begin his career playing carbon copies of Charlie
> Christian solos?
That's what they say. Really, is there anybody in here who's NOT trying to
express what they feel when they play? There's a lot of work that has to be
done before a person gets to the point where they can "play what they mean"
most of the time. The process is different for everyone. One of the ways it
can go is like this: you hear someone else playing and you say, "If only I
could play like that person". You start trying to do just that; after a long
period of trying, one day you realize that you'll never play exactly like
that person, but that while you were trying, you learned a lot about your
own voice.
In other words, sometimes certain people need a model for their playing to
get going. It'd be pretty hard to develop into a jazz player if someone just
poured equal loads of theory and technique into your head and fingers and
then said, "Okay, now go play jazz."
Jack A. Zucker
news:3f50e8ee...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> Yup. And Diz copied Roy Eldridge note for note. And Ornette Coleman
> could play Bird solos perfectly. It takes a lot of time and effort to
> sound like yourself, and mostly it involves assimilating what's gone
> before, i.e., sounding like someone else.
Which in my opinion, means copying their notes, not their equipment.
Formerly Sideways
problem if an artist's OWN vision and sound
> happens to involve an archtop and SS amp?
>
>
There's nothing wrong with that at all, Kevin. Some of us would like
to hear more instances of relatively traditional jazz material played
in non-traditional ways, including with non-traditional setups and
tones. Doesn't mean you have to change a thing. In fact, I like the
sound you get on your clips.
Max Leggett
>in article Xns93E7CD89...@212.64.53.131, Keith Freeman at
>freeke...@compuserve.com wrote on 8/30/03 2:12 PM:
>
>>> Sometimes it takes a long time to sound like yourself.
>> Precisely - didn't Wes begin his career playing carbon copies of Charlie
>> Christian solos?
>
>That's what they say. Really, is there anybody in here who's NOT trying to
>express what they feel when they play? There's a lot of work that has to be
>done before a person gets to the point where they can "play what they mean"
>most of the time.
Well, you can short cut the process by learning a minor pentatonic in
a couple of positions and then go around telling people you play
"blues/rock". Given the state of musical incoherence in the general
public, who's going to call you out on it? "Hey, man, I'm doing my
thing. Don't rain on my parade." Or you could just say that you're
playing post-modernist free-form improvisatioanl art music. Now,
_that's_ impossible to argue with.
>In other words, sometimes certain people need a model for their playing to
>get going. It'd be pretty hard to develop into a jazz player if someone just
>poured equal loads of theory and technique into your head and fingers and
>then said, "Okay, now go play jazz."
Without the history, i.e., without having copied the masters who
preceded us, it'd be aimless. There's a reason classical composers
study Bach and Mozart and learn to voice things just like they did,
and the same reasoning applies to jazz. Joey posted recently that jazz
is serious music, and that it takes a lot of work, and he's right.
It's not like playing Gumbayah 'round the campfire [pass me a
marshmallow] - there's a whole universe of history and knowledge. You
don't "sound like yourself" simply by buying a different effects box.
Max Leggett
Oh, absolutely. I think their equipment is almost irrelevant. It's the
vibe you're after, the gut of the music. Whether they played an L5
through a Fender or an alto sax throiugh a mic is irrelevant. I read
very recently [where the hell was it?] that someone switched
mouthpieces on Diz and Roy once and that neither of them could get a
note out, and Diz, remember, could play Roy like a clone. Equipment be
damned.
Jack A. Zucker
> Oh, absolutely. I think their equipment is almost irrelevant. It's the
> vibe you're after, the gut of the music. Whether they played an L5
> through a Fender or an alto sax throiugh a mic is irrelevant. I read
> very recently [where the hell was it?] that someone switched
> mouthpieces on Diz and Roy once and that neither of them could get a
> note out, and Diz, remember, could play Roy like a clone. Equipment be
> damned.
>
On that note, I know lots of sax players who obsess about using the
mouthpiece and reeds of their favorite players so it's not something unique
to guitarists.
And - I'm guilty of this as well. After all - I was using a Pat Metheny
guitar for years...
Max Leggett
Photographers do the same. Gotta have a Canon 3 with a 75-300 IS zoom
and a yellow-blue polariser. Someone wanted to know the secret behind
Henri Cartier Bresson's photos, so, thinking they'd get the inside
scoop on equipment they asked him what he shot. "F2.8 at 1/30."
Jack A. Zucker
> Photographers do the same. Gotta have a Canon 3 with a 75-300 IS zoom
> and a yellow-blue polariser. Someone wanted to know the secret behind
> Henri Cartier Bresson's photos, so, thinking they'd get the inside
> scoop on equipment they asked him what he shot. "F2.8 at 1/30."
Or D10 and 28-135 IS... :-) (What a lemon that was...)
Bob R
at j...@jackzucker.com wrote on 8/30/03 3:21 PM:
> Equipment be
>> damned.
>>
>
> On that note, I know lots of sax players who obsess about using the
> mouthpiece and reeds of their favorite players so it's not something unique
> to guitarists.
I was talking to a piano player the other day who was raving about the shape
of the keys on a particular keyboard. I'm sure all instruments have their
arcana. Sometimes it's fun to think about that stuff. Sometimes it's useful.
Sometimes it's just a distraction. Most of us can sort it out without a
twelve-step program. :-)
Greger Hoel
wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:52:25 GMT, Greg D <oas...@cox.net> wrote in
>message <Xns93E6646F0B7...@68.1.17.6> :
>
>>
>>I guess this begs the larger question: what is truth?
>
>
>truth is.
..what it are.
Adam Bravo
but I wouldn't say that the majority of the participants fit any one mold.
And they're certainly not cookie-cutter.
"Steve Carroll" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:noone-C38C8A....@netnews.attbi.com...
> In article <mq3skvsv9g5n0qh85...@4ax.com>,
> Pt <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > This is not intended as an insult to anyone...
> >
> > Through the years I have listened to clips from many people in this
> > group and even though this does not hold true for everyone, it does
> > for the majority.
> >
> > You guys all sound the same.
> > I could not pick out one player from another just by hearing them
> > play.
> >
> > Guitarists that I can always tell apart are those with a particular
> > style of their own.
> >
> > Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Eric Clapton, George
> > Harrison, Les Paul , Duane Eddy, Jimmy Bruno, Link Wray, Django,
> > Charlie Christian and many more.
> >
> > Dare to be different.
> > Make your music memorable.
> >
> > Pt
> >
>
> I probably haven't listened to as many as you have so maybe my
> perspective isn't broad enough to be very accurate, but this is opinion
> time and, from what I've heard so far, I disagree with your opinion.
> Perhaps if you were to point out some particular clips for me to listen
> to I could better hear what you're talking about.
>
> Steve
Michael Ellenberger
Mike
--
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
http://www.soundclick.com/traveler
Pt
<grumpm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Dare to be yourself ;-)
>
>Mike
Well said Mike.
Pt
Rbsoul
Hey, I already said that. Copywrite Infringement!!! :->
Ken Willinger
Hear my clips at:
http://www.soundclick.com/kenwillinger
Jack A. Zucker
But that's a cop-out. You can say that being yourself is dressing in a
clown-suit and playing Jimi-Hendrix riffs over Giant Steps. It says nothing.
My 14 year old can play an A blues scale over Giant Steps and he's being
himself.
Jaz
Michael Ellenberger
> << Dare to be yourself ;-) >>
>
>
> Hey, I already said that. Copywrite Infringement!!! :->
Sorry Ken but I didn't feel like reading the endless number of posts.
However, you are obviously a great thinker ;-)
Joe Finn
"Michael Ellenberger" <grumpm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3F52A685...@worldnet.att.net...
> Rbsoul wrote:
> > << Dare to be yourself ;-) >>
> >
> >
> > Hey, I already said that. Copywrite Infringement!!! :->
>
> Sorry Ken but I didn't feel like reading the endless number of posts.
> However, you are obviously a great thinker ;-)
>
> Mike
Sorry Ken I missed it too. Nevertheless I think the development of one's own
musical identity is paramount. If you have what it takes to be who you are
[musically speaking] you have latched on to something very profound and
important. I was nearly 30 before I figured this out. I would sit around as
a 20 something playing Benson, Pass and Martino solos note for note along
with the recordings. I had deluded myself into thinking I was as good as
they were. What a jerk! I was the originator of nothing at that point. I was
only a poor imitation of the real deal. I had a lot of musical growing up to
do.
Now that I think of it; I still do. ..........joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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Johnny Asia
I took that dare years ago.
And I'm sure glad I did.
Speaking of daring to be different,
Dom Minasi and I are gigging togther now.
He gets even more hate mail than I do,
I'm jealous!
+
Johnny Asia and the Woodstock Quantum Ensemble
Live tracks with violinist Richard Carr:
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/painterny/wqe.html
Live at the Knitting Factory, NYC:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/2404/2404397.html
( Kind of like Philip Glass meets Bitches Brew )
fl...@comcast.net
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
>
>But that's a cop-out. You can say that being yourself is dressing in a
>clown-suit and playing Jimi-Hendrix riffs over Giant Steps.
You've seen my act?
Frank
Frank Milewski
http://mp3.com/Corps_of_Discovery
http://mp3.com/bzb
Joe Finn
<pope_about_town at Xyahoo.com (Johnny Asia)> wrote in message
news:3f531f67...@news.mybizz.net...
>
> I took that dare years ago.
>
> And I'm sure glad I did.
>
> Speaking of daring to be different,
> Dom Minasi and I are gigging togther now.
> He gets even more hate mail than I do,
> I'm jealous!
>
I'll give you that, Johnny! 8-) You are definitely different.
I'm looking forward to playing with you and Dom sometime.
Hope the gig went well. .....joe
Lauri Pekonen
> But that's a cop-out. You can say that being yourself is dressing in a
> clown-suit and playing Jimi-Hendrix riffs over Giant Steps. It says nothing.
Actually, we have a guitarist like that in Finland. His name is
Marzi Nyman. He's great.
http://www.fimic.fi/fimic/fimic.nsf/0/db21bb5b3f32cc5dc2256d5c00451c47?OpenDocument
Johnny Asia
>On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:28:07 GMT, "Jack A. Zucker"
><j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
>
>>But that's a cop-out. You can say that being yourself is dressing in a
>>clown-suit and playing Jimi-Hendrix riffs over Giant Steps. >>
That's nothing. My bandmate Gus told me about THE most different
musician. Gus and bassist Studio Stu were audtioning for a gig, and
a guy wearing a leotard, very slim and well muscled, was playing
classical violin, very well too, while pirouetting around, doing
ballet moves, AND singing arias in a Maria Callas-like true contralto
voice, not falsetto, which was so good that Gus said it was very
disturbing and disconcerting that a man could sing like that. The
auditioners and other musicians were stunned into silence.
The guy didn't get the gig, but he sure made an impact on those who
saw his act, as well as the people they have told about the incident.
He not only sang, danced and played very well, he did so with
a tremendous amount of feeling in his performance.
Just think about how much work the guy put into developing
and perfecting an act that, apparently without any regard
to whether or not there would be an audience or venue for it.