Thoughts about Barney Kessel´s playing:
SwingDoug
>
> >I can't stand Barney's playing. He's really stiff and most of his records
don't
> >appeal to me at all. Like that shit with the oboe? Yuck.
>
> Post your sound clips so we can learn from your vast store of
> knowledge.
Get mad all you want, it's not like Barney was your father. The reason I
dislike his playing is because he wasn't really swinging, when compared to
other players like Christian, Oscar Moore, or Farlow. And his technique was not
sloppy because he was "going" for something improvisationally. I have
thoroughly checked out every major jazz guitarist, and Barney is no exception.
He never was a real improvisor in the truest sense. He played a lot of
repetitive licks, as did many guitar players. There was a great precedent of
guitarists before him with better technique. Django, Christian, Lang, Aleman,
Bauer. But Barney never got that thing in his playing that made his playing
appeal to me. If you dig him, that's fine. But it doesn't change his playing.
And as for me "not hearing" what Barney is going for? That's simply not true.
He was about guitar playing, not music. This is a common flaw of guitarists in
jazz. Never have we had a guitar player with a real conceptual approach until
Jim Hall.
>>Um ... SwingDoug happens to be, Doug Wamble, the guitar player with the
Lincoln Centre Jazz Orchestra I believe.<<<
No, I'm not. The LCJO has never had a regular guitar player. They hire me about
twice a year and whenever else they need guitar, but that's it. And none of
this has anything to do with Barney Kessell.
Tom Walls
swin...@aol.com says...
> Max Leggett wrote:
> >
> > >I can't stand Barney's playing. He's really stiff and most of his records
> don't
> > >appeal to me at all. Like that shit with the oboe? Yuck.
> >
> > Post your sound clips so we can learn from your vast store of
> > knowledge.
>
> Get mad all you want, it's not like Barney was your father. The reason I
> dislike his playing is because he wasn't really swinging, when compared to
> other players like Christian, Oscar Moore, or Farlow. And his technique was not
> sloppy because he was "going" for something improvisationally. I have
> thoroughly checked out every major jazz guitarist, and Barney is no exception.
> He never was a real improvisor in the truest sense. He played a lot of
> repetitive licks, as did many guitar players. There was a great precedent of
> guitarists before him with better technique. Django, Christian, Lang, Aleman,
> Bauer. But Barney never got that thing in his playing that made his playing
> appeal to me. If you dig him, that's fine. But it doesn't change his playing.
> And as for me "not hearing" what Barney is going for? That's simply not true.
> He was about guitar playing, not music. This is a common flaw of guitarists in
> jazz. Never have we had a guitar player with a real conceptual approach until
> Jim Hall.
>
It doesn't bother me that you don't like Barney -- IMHO you're missing a
lot of terrific music, but the heart wants what the heart wants -- but it
seems like you're setting the bar unreasonably high. If I understand
your argument, then "Django, Christian, Lang, Aleman, Bauer", in spite of
their technique, were "guitar, not music" because they lacked the
conceptual approach. Applied to other instruments: who was the first
trumpet, sax, drummer, etc. with a conceptual approach?
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Joe Finn
> The LCJO has never had a regular guitar player. They hire me about
> twice a year and whenever else they need guitar, but that's it. >
>
Doug: Nice of you to *swing* by the group here. I hope you had a nice
summer. Any gigs with Wynton? ......joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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SwingDoug
>trumpet, sax, drummer, etc. with a conceptual approach?
Louis Armstrong, Sidney Bechet, Baby Dodds, respectively. Then there's Jelly
Roll Morton...
SwingDoug
>summer. Any gigs with Wynton?
Just a couple...he wrote the music for a play they're trying to get on Broadway
and he wrote some guitar stuff for me to play. It's fun.
Michael Evans
Barney Kessel
having sloppy or bad technique. Is that really true? I wouldn't set myself
as a
great judge of this (having pretty sloppy and bad technique myself) but when
I listen to
Barney I don't hear that at all. My own impression, from listening to a
fairly wide selection
of his recordings (and his style varied over the years), is that Barney
sounded the way he
wanted to sound and had excellent control over the instrument. To me that
implies
great technique. One may not like the way he phrased (particularly later in
his career)
but I have my doubts that this was due to his having bad technique.
By the way I'm not just defending one of my favourites here - the suggestion
that he
had bad technique just doesn't make sense to me.
The criticism that "He was about guitar
not music" seems to imply that playing the guitar is not about making music
which also doesn't
make sense and is a bit of a cheap shot. I suppose the writer really meant
that he was primarily focused on guitar playing
rather than larger goals in music. I can understand that as a comment on how
a player fits
in grander scheme of things, but a player can still be recognized for their
accomplishments
on their instrument and Barney is eminently deserving of that. He made a
lot of
great music too.
Personally I think he was one of the greatest guitar players
I have ever heard or seen play - a magnificent musician.
Mike
"SwingDoug" <swin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020905001218...@mb-fg.aol.com...
Nazodesu
<swin...@aol.com> wrote:
> Get mad all you want, it's not like Barney was your father. The
> reason I dislike his playing is because he wasn't really swinging,
> when compared to other players like Christian, Oscar Moore, or
> Farlow.
Too bad "swinging" is such an ambiguous term. Kessel swings like crazy.
He practically is a bop incarnation of Christian. Seems that Farlow
himself wouldn't have taken to time to wax eloquent, on more than one
occasion about how hard-swinging Barney is. Maybe you know more than
Farlow? Maybe Farlow was lying?
> And his technique was not sloppy because he was "going" for
> something improvisationally. I have thoroughly checked out every
> major jazz guitarist, and Barney is no exception. He never was a real
> improvisor in the truest sense. He played a lot of repetitive licks,
> as did many guitar players.
Well I'ave checked out every major jazz guitarist and either none of
them were improvisors in the truest sense or Barney was among the best.
> There was a great precedent of guitarists
> before him with better technique. Django, Christian, Lang, Aleman,
> Bauer.
Have you ever heard the chord solo work that Christian did? Compare it
to Kessel's? Or by "technique" did you mean some limited subset of
activity? If you mean fluffing notes, yes though I've heard
Kessel-fans quibble about it, he definitely fluffed notes. So does
Raney, so does Christian. So does most everyone but the automatons. If
his recorded output wasn't about 300 times more than Lang, Aleman and
Bauer's put together maybe we'd have more volume to compare. Maybe we
should just compare his trio dates with their work. That would be a
rapid analysis.
He's also really hanging on the edge which is something most of the
others listed rarely did. He played at the edge of his technique. I
respect that and can live with the lint that comes up. I'd rather have
excitement and swing that accuracy.
Also one of the "sloppy technique" arguments relating to Kessel has to
do with that raked arpeggio technique. Obviously he decided that the
technique could live without the mechanical precision that might be
found in the same thing with Chuck Wayne or Tal Farlow, but then he
used it quite differently.
> But Barney never got that thing in his playing that made his
> playing appeal to me. If you dig him, that's fine. But it doesn't
> change his playing. And as for me "not hearing" what Barney is going
> for? That's simply not true. He was about guitar playing, not music.
> This is a common flaw of guitarists in jazz. Never have we had a
> guitar player with a real conceptual approach until Jim Hall.
Of course Hall is unique, Kessel is too. Hall is not more uniquer than
Kessel. They're not ballplayers with quantitative stats.
I've proffered some of the same arguments you make here (probably in
the same moldy thread this was once part of) and I think they are bogus
now. What's the difference? As part of my research on guitar trios
over the past year, I've spent a couple hundred hours listening to
Kessel's stuff, buying 12-15 CD's, mostly trios, transcribed, worked
through arrangements etc. I've gone from whining about his technique to
putting him at the top of the class.
Which makes me think that the real problem with your argument is really
sitting down and listening to him; not "evaluating" him from a few, or
many, cursory encounters.
I think he's one of the most important guitarists of the 20th century,
and I doubt he'll be recognized as such. He was practically forgotten
before his stroke took him out the game. Why? I don't know, but I
assume because he was white, Southern, goofy-looking, no phaser, a jazz
market in low-ebb. Those kinds of things--important musical
considerations, right? But to your point on technique, some prefer the
precision of Al DiMeola instead of music.
thomas
> Max Leggett wrote:
> >
> > Post your sound clips so we can learn from your vast store of
> > knowledge.
>
> Get mad all you want, it's not like Barney was your father. The reason I
> dislike his playing is because he wasn't really swinging, when compared to
> other players like Christian, Oscar Moore, or Farlow. And his technique was not
> sloppy because he was "going" for something improvisationally. I have
> thoroughly checked out every major jazz guitarist, and Barney is no exception.
> He never was a real improvisor in the truest sense. He played a lot of
> repetitive licks, as did many guitar players.
Hey Doug, whassup. Anyone can hear that Barney is occasionally
sloppy and that he plays a lot of licks. But I have never heard
anyone but you suggest that he didn't swing. Considering that
he was hired by just about everybody, I think this part of
your claim is way off the wall. BK swung like a mother, and
I am surprised that you can't hear it the way all Barney's
bosses heard it.
SwingDoug
Not in the real world.
> I've heard
>Kessel-fans quibble about it, he definitely fluffed notes. So does
>Raney, so does Christian.
If you can't hear the difference between the way Christian and Raney played and
Kessell, then I don't know what to say. Barney was missing the element of blues
awareness.
> I
>respect that and can live with the lint that comes up. I'd rather have
>excitement and swing that accuracy.
>
Me too. Always. But Barney doesn't swing like Christian, Raney, Wes, or Farlow.
>Of course Hall is unique, Kessel is too.
Kessell played the guitar. Jim played/plays music. Kessell never listened to
his band. I've heard the trio records. Zero interaction, nothing developed.
Just lines over and over again.
>I don't know, but I
>assume because he was white, Southern, goofy-looking, no phaser, a jazz
>market in low-ebb.
Hey, sounds like me!
>But to your point on technique, some prefer the
>precision of Al DiMeola instead of music.
>
Not me. I can't stand DiMeola. Nor can I stand the rickyticky machine gun
guitarists who play "straight ahead" today. But I still think Kessell was not
so swinging. Sorry.
Holger Weber
for my broken computer table and the band-aid.
Holger
SwingDoug <swin...@aol.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
20020905001218...@mb-fg.aol.com...
John Pin
swing s well as Farlow. Couldnt be more the reverse i think.
Pollwinners, & P Winners Rides again.
Check those albums out and then judge.
I've never been a huge fan of Barney, though i enjoy his playing.
But to not recognise his swing element is had to figure.
cheers
Tom Walls
swin...@aol.com says...
I thought you were using the term "conceptual approach" to differentiate
from an instrument based approach. Although each of the players you've
named were influential beyond the scope of their instrument, it seems to
me that -- with the exception of Jelly Roll -- their approaches were
based on established technique. OTOH if you use the term to describe
someone whose approach broadened the context of improvisation in jazz,
then I would agree, but I would hesitate to include Jim Hall. Although
Jim Hall is obviously significant in the stylistic development of jazz
guitar, IMHO his innovations are pretty much limited to the instrument.
Therefore, if J. Hall meets your criteria -- so does Barney Kessell. He
was the first to establish a comprehensive approach to bebop on the
instrument.
Tom Walls
mev...@utstat.utoronto.ca says...
> I've read the comment from a number of people on this newsgroup about
> Barney Kessel
> having sloppy or bad technique. Is that really true? I wouldn't set myself
> as a
> great judge of this (having pretty sloppy and bad technique myself) but when
> I listen to
> Barney I don't hear that at all. My own impression, from listening to a
> fairly wide selection
> of his recordings (and his style varied over the years), is that Barney
> sounded the way he
> wanted to sound and had excellent control over the instrument. To me that
> implies
> great technique. One may not like the way he phrased (particularly later in
> his career)
> but I have my doubts that this was due to his having bad technique.
> By the way I'm not just defending one of my favourites here - the suggestion
> that he
> had bad technique just doesn't make sense to me.
>
I agree to an extent, but I have heard him play with what is ordinarily
regarded as sloppy technique(poorly picked and fretted notes,
questionable time), particularly in his later years.
Nazodesu
<jp...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
> For the life of me i cnat undestnd yhow you could percieve Kessel to not
> swing s well as Farlow. Couldnt be more the reverse i think.
A long post seemed to have been eaten by my system. Just as well, this
one will be read:
Farlow spoke grandly and eloquently of Barney's ability to swing.
Either he's right, doesn't know as much as SwingDoug, or he's a liar.
I'll go with him being right.
SwingDoug
>me that -- with the exception of Jelly Roll -- their approaches were
>based on established technique.
Well, I suggest you check out their music a little more thoroughly and see if
you come to a different conclusion.
>Jim Hall is obviously significant in the stylistic development of jazz
>guitar, IMHO his innovations are pretty much limited to the instrument.
Perhaps, but Jim was someone who tried to function in a group, rather than just
play the guitar. Barney never did that.
>so does Barney Kessell. He
>was the first to establish a comprehensive approach to bebop on the
>instrument.
Well, Barney assimiliated the harmonic aspects of Bird, but he completely
neglected the rhythmic thing, which was what made Bird so important. All the
harmony from bebop was there in Duke and others before Bird. It was the
rhythmic innovation of bebop that made it unique. Barney has none of that.
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020905124040...@mb-da.aol.com> :
>Well, I suggest you check out their music a little more thoroughly and see if
>you come to a different conclusion.
that's my advice to you re: barney kessel
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.onestopjazz.com/kvansant
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
John Pin
bebop recordings of Bird and such...I think few people would regard him as a
bebop guitarist.
Looking for those rhythmic elements in his style is out of charachter.
He is in the linearage of Christian certainly. Granted, perhaps never
achienving the conviction of Christian..he was a hard swinging player.
Judge him when he is in his peak. Look for the positive in his playing.
Again, your not going to find interaction at any great level. True.
But, hes not that type of musician and he didnt have many of those elements
in his ensembles.
Judge him for what he is...dont look for what he isnt.
Its easy to see what people arent...or lack. Sometimes its blinds us to what
they do have.
cheers
"SwingDoug" <swin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020905124040...@mb-da.aol.com...
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020905122200...@mb-da.aol.com> :
>>Too bad "swinging" is such an ambiguous term.
>
>Not in the real world.
you mean not in "your" world. We all have a clear idea for
ourselves of what is or isn't swinging, the problem is that what is
swinging to one (or many) may not be to another, thus the ambiguity of
the term. That is the real world.
>> I've heard
>>Kessel-fans quibble about it, he definitely fluffed notes. So does
>>Raney, so does Christian.
>
>If you can't hear the difference between the way Christian and Raney played and
>Kessell, then I don't know what to say. Barney was missing the element of blues
>awareness.
If you can't hear how Barney's whole concept is saturated with a deep
blues awareness then I don't know what to say. Listen to his solo on
the small group sides with Billy Holiday of "I've got a right to sing
the blues"
>> I
>>respect that and can live with the lint that comes up. I'd rather have
>>excitement and swing that accuracy.
>>
>
>Me too. Always. But Barney doesn't swing like Christian, Raney, Wes, or Farlow.
Barney swings just as hard as any of those guys. I don't know why you
can't hear it but Barney swings so hard by any measure I can think
of. When I first started studying jazz guitar Barney was my hero
precisely because he swung so hard and infused all his music with the
blues and obvious joy. I've heard and possibly own just about his
entire recorded jazz output. I don't really listen to him much lately
because I'm compelled by more modern ideas these days but I still
regard him as one of the elite greats. You'd be lucky to swing as
hard as Barney.
>>Of course Hall is unique, Kessel is too.
>
>Kessell played the guitar. Jim played/plays music. Kessell never listened to
>his band. I've heard the trio records. Zero interaction, nothing developed.
>Just lines over and over again.
So does that mean Ray Brown doesn't listen or Shelley Manne?
Barney was a serious arranger and also wrote a ton of interesting
tunes. That's called making music, not playing guitar. Again I
refer you to the Billy Holiday small group sides to hear how Barney is
obviously right in the pocket with the whole group, he couldn't have
gotten all the gigs that he had over his career if he didn't have good
ears. His improvising concept may have been more guitaristic than
Hall's but it was none the less musical for it.
It's alright if you don't care for his playing but to so adamently
insist that he doesn't swing when so many of his peers and other
greats all through the history of jazz from the late 40's to present
can hear that he does might make you think that you are missing
something.
maybe.
SwingDoug
>that's my advice to you re: barney kessel
>
Well, I've checked out most all of his records when I was in college. But I'll
go back and listen. Give me two weeks and I'll let you know what I find.
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020905122200...@mb-da.aol.com> :
>>Too bad "swinging" is such an ambiguous term.
>
>Not in the real world.
you mean not in "your" world. We all have a clear idea for
ourselves of what is or isn't swinging, the problem is that what is
swinging to one (or many) may not be to another, thus the ambiguity of
the term. That is the real world.
>> I've heard
>>Kessel-fans quibble about it, he definitely fluffed notes. So does
>>Raney, so does Christian.
>
>If you can't hear the difference between the way Christian and Raney played and
>Kessell, then I don't know what to say. Barney was missing the element of blues
>awareness.
If you can't hear how Barney's whole concept is saturated with a deep
blues awareness then I don't know what to say. Listen to his solo on
the small group sides with Billy Holiday of "I've got a right to sing
the blues"
>> I
>>respect that and can live with the lint that comes up. I'd rather have
>>excitement and swing that accuracy.
>>
>
>Me too. Always. But Barney doesn't swing like Christian, Raney, Wes, or Farlow.
Barney swings just as hard as any of those guys. I don't know why you
can't hear it but Barney swings so hard by any measure I can think
of. When I first started studying jazz guitar Barney was my hero
precisely because he swung so hard and infused all his music with the
blues and obvious joy. I've heard and possibly own just about his
entire recorded jazz output. I don't really listen to him much lately
because I'm compelled by more modern ideas these days but I still
regard him as one of the elite greats. You'd be lucky to swing as
hard as Barney.
>>Of course Hall is unique, Kessel is too.
>
>Kessell played the guitar. Jim played/plays music. Kessell never listened to
>his band. I've heard the trio records. Zero interaction, nothing developed.
>Just lines over and over again.
So does that mean Ray Brown doesn't listen or Shelley Manne?
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020905122200...@mb-da.aol.com> :
>>Too bad "swinging" is such an ambiguous term.
>
>Not in the real world.
you mean not in "your" world. We all have a clear idea for
ourselves of what is or isn't swinging, the problem is that what is
swinging to one (or many) may not be to another, thus the ambiguity of
the term. That is the real world.
>> I've heard
>>Kessel-fans quibble about it, he definitely fluffed notes. So does
>>Raney, so does Christian.
>
>If you can't hear the difference between the way Christian and Raney played and
>Kessell, then I don't know what to say. Barney was missing the element of blues
>awareness.
If you can't hear how Barney's whole concept is saturated with a deep
blues awareness then I don't know what to say. Listen to his solo on
the small group sides with Billy Holiday of "I've got a right to sing
the blues"
>> I
>>respect that and can live with the lint that comes up. I'd rather have
>>excitement and swing that accuracy.
>>
>
>Me too. Always. But Barney doesn't swing like Christian, Raney, Wes, or Farlow.
Barney swings just as hard as any of those guys. I don't know why you
can't hear it but Barney swings so hard by any measure I can think
of. When I first started studying jazz guitar Barney was my hero
precisely because he swung so hard and infused all his music with the
blues and obvious joy. I've heard and possibly own just about his
entire recorded jazz output. I don't really listen to him much lately
because I'm compelled by more modern ideas these days but I still
regard him as one of the elite greats. You'd be lucky to swing as
hard as Barney.
>>Of course Hall is unique, Kessel is too.
>
>Kessell played the guitar. Jim played/plays music. Kessell never listened to
>his band. I've heard the trio records. Zero interaction, nothing developed.
>Just lines over and over again.
So does that mean Ray Brown doesn't listen or Shelley Manne?
Tom Walls
swin...@aol.com says...
> >it seems to
> >me that -- with the exception of Jelly Roll -- their approaches were
> >based on established technique.
>
> Well, I suggest you check out their music a little more thoroughly and see if
> you come to a different conclusion.
>
I'm pretty well acquainted. I don't question that they were
innovators(for god's sake); however, if you don't think that, for
instance, Pops' approach was *based* on
the licks and techniques that he learned from other cornet players I
think you might be interested in consulting the available literature.
SwingDoug
>the licks and techniques
Everyone has influences, but Armstrong was a significant departure. At any
rate, if we want to discuss his music any further, I suggest we do it on the
bandstand. Next time I'm in your town, let's jam on Weather Bird Rag and we'll
deal with all of this there.
SwingDoug
Come on over to New York and you'll figure a few things out that you might not
have considered.
And if I ever come through your town, you're welcome to come on my bandstand
and we'll work out some swinging issues right there.
>Listen to his solo on
>the small group sides with Billy Holiday of "I've got a right to sing
>the blues"
Awful example. Terrible.
>Barney was my hero
Well, there you go.
> You'd be lucky to swing as
>hard as Barney.
Not really. When you compare Barney to people who really swing out, like Wynton
Kelly, Sonny Rollins, or Bird, then Barney comes up short. I'll aim higher,
thanks.
>So does that mean Ray Brown doesn't listen or Shelley Manne?
Shelley was never an interactive drummer. Ray listens all the time, but I never
said he didn't. Barney is the one who is oblivious to his rhythm sections.
>jazz from the late 40's to present
>can hear that he does might make you think that you are missing
>something.
All I can do is listen to the music with the same ears. I'm not biased towards
the guitar just because I happen to play it. I don't let people off the hook so
easily. Barney is good when compared to some, but put him up against a list of
the top 50 jazz musicians, and he falls severly short in terms of creativity,
swing and musicality.
Tom Walls
swin...@aol.com says...
SwingDoug
It's just confidence, Tom. I find that the bandstand is the great equalizer.
Maybe you disagree, but I'm willing to put my shit on the line where it counts.
Attitude, arrogance, whatever. At the end of the day, I'm ready to prove my
knowledge on my instrument. Are you?
Tom Walls
swin...@aol.com says...
I thought we were having a discussion of musical concept as regards jazz
guitar. I was interested in hearing your ideas. You can't express your
ideas regarding the originality of Baby Dodds' concept with your guitar.
You'll have to use the language.
Guess you must still be pissed off about that "atmospheric slide guitar
cliches" comment.
SwingDoug
>ideas regarding the originality of Baby Dodds' concept with your guitar.
Really? I would disagree.I think that by playing the music of that era I can
show exactly how much I have learned from it conceptually. With about two
exceptions, I have yet to meet a guitar player anywhere who can play Louis
Armstrong's music. Guitar players never seem to see the validity in studying
that era of music. They pay it lip service all the time, and say that they are
interested in more "modern" ideas. Modern meaning 1960's...but we won't get
into that. Guitarists seem to want to only listen to jazz from 1940-1965, and
the derivatives thereof. So that's why I find them lacking in information. I
have busted my ass learning that music, and it's not so I could play in a
repertory band. It's becuase, philosophically, I believe in dealing with ALL of
the music, not just the portions I find easy to digest. There's a great story
about a student in New Orleans in one of Ellis Marsalis' classes. E was telling
the kind about learning early jazz, and the kid resisted, saying he didn't like
that stuff. E told him that maybe if he spent time with it, he'd change his
ideas. But the kid said, "I know what I like". Ellis corrected him, "No, son,
you like what you know." And that's they way it is with most people. They pay
lip service to jazz history, but don't know shit about anyone before Bird. And
they miss out on what made Bird and even Trane as great as they were. But
that's ok with me. Choosing to be ignorant is not something I'll ever be
interested in.
>
>Guess you must still be pissed off about that "atmospheric slide guitar
>cliches" comment.
I'm not pissed off in the least. What are you referring to?
Nick Falcon
not true.
>He was about guitar playing, not music. This is a common flaw of
guitarists in
>jazz.
Do you at least dig the Pollwinners records? Those records don't come
across as guitar showcases so much as musical showcases of great
players playing great tunes.
A little OT but in the interest of sharing, I was leafing through
Oscar Peterson's bio at the bookstore and he had a lot of good things
to say about Barney--he felt Barney was his equal, or at least it came
across like that if I remember the text correctly.
Tom Walls
swin...@aol.com says...
> >You can't express your
> >ideas regarding the originality of Baby Dodds' concept with your guitar.
>
> Really? I would disagree.I think that by playing the music of that era I can
> show exactly how much I have learned from it conceptually.
That's different from explaining to me how his concept was derived from a
universal musical perspective rather than an instrument based one. Now I
understand that this may sound like it's just a bunch of intellectual
bullshit, but it's *your* intellectual bullshit. I was just giving you
the benefit of the doubt that there was something meaningful behind it.
With about two
> exceptions, I have yet to meet a guitar player anywhere who can play Louis
> Armstrong's music. Guitar players never seem to see the validity in studying
> that era of music. They pay it lip service all the time, and say that they are
> interested in more "modern" ideas. Modern meaning 1960's...but we won't get
> into that. Guitarists seem to want to only listen to jazz from 1940-1965, and
> the derivatives thereof. So that's why I find them lacking in information. I
> have busted my ass learning that music, and it's not so I could play in a
> repertory band. It's becuase, philosophically, I believe in dealing with ALL of
> the music, not just the portions I find easy to digest. There's a great story
> about a student in New Orleans in one of Ellis Marsalis' classes. E was telling
> the kind about learning early jazz, and the kid resisted, saying he didn't like
> that stuff. E told him that maybe if he spent time with it, he'd change his
> ideas. But the kid said, "I know what I like". Ellis corrected him, "No, son,
> you like what you know." And that's they way it is with most people. They pay
> lip service to jazz history, but don't know shit about anyone before Bird. And
> they miss out on what made Bird and even Trane as great as they were. But
> that's ok with me. Choosing to be ignorant is not something I'll ever be
> interested in.
Well, I really dig early jazz and -- even more so -- early blues. I
suspect you could hear it in my playing, but I can't really play Pops'
music. I have reached out in that direction a couple of times, but more
in the Blind Blake/Bo Carter acoustic fingerstyle bag, I've never really
adapted it to a more modern idiom. But I do tend to be more of a melody
player than a scales based player. I don't necessarily think this is a
*good* thing.
Anyhow I'm still getting my chops together as a jazz player and I make no
bones about it. I'm not jumping into any cutting contests to prove I'm
an astute observer of Louis Armstrong.
> >
> >Guess you must still be pissed off about that "atmospheric slide guitar
> >cliches" comment.
>
> I'm not pissed off in the least. What are you referring to?
>
Yow -- if you don't remember then I deeply regret bringing it up.
Earlier this year I made a comment about your slide playing on "Big
Train" , and it turned out that no such playing existed. Words were
exchanged. I made a public apology. It was embarrassing all around.
Remember?
How did it happen? A friend who lurks on RMB played something for me and
identified you as the player and I didn't think it was all that. I
thought they must have instructed you to play some atmospheric southern
slide stuff. I thought it was "Big Train". Whatever it was, it sounded
nothing like clips of you that I heard later.
Mark Kleinhaut
Tom Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
Whatever it was, it sounded
>nothing like clips of you that I heard later.
Tom, you've heard this dude's playing. What do you think, can I take him??:)
(kidding, of course, well, sort of)
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
EHHackney
Those of you who dis Barny Kessel's playing are all wet. There were lots of
great players including Jim Hall and the others, but Barny was one of them. He
may have not been as maticulous or articulate or "politically correct" as some
other players, but he DID swing, and he DROVE more than any other guitarist I
can remember.
Hack
--//--
Nazodesu
the other hand, it clearly bears repetition.
In article <ag1fnu0gftq7itfv1...@4ax.com>, Kevin Van Sant
<kvan...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 05 Sep 2002 16:22:00 GMT, swin...@aol.com (SwingDoug) wrote in
> message <20020905122200...@mb-da.aol.com> :
>
> >>Too bad "swinging" is such an ambiguous term.
> >
> >Not in the real world.
>
> you mean not in "your" world. We all have a clear idea for
> ourselves of what is or isn't swinging, the problem is that what is
> swinging to one (or many) may not be to another, thus the ambiguity
> of the term. That is the real world.
The idea that he doesn't swing in some "everybody knows it" way is
preposterous of course. That doesn't mean you have to like him.
Clearly he has all the jazz feels necessary.
> >> I've heard Kessel-fans quibble about it, he definitely fluffed
> >> notes. So does Raney, so does Christian.
> >
> >If you can't hear the difference between the way Christian and Raney
> >played and Kessell, then I don't know what to say. Barney was
> >missing the element of blues awareness.
>
> If you can't hear how Barney's whole concept is saturated with a deep
> blues awareness then I don't know what to say. Listen to his solo on
> the small group sides with Billy Holiday of "I've got a right to sing
> the blues"
If one can't hear the blues in him there are auditory problems, I'd
think. I love them both but Barney has a lot more blues context than
Hall.
> >> I respect that and can live with the lint that comes up. I'd
> >> rather have excitement and swing that accuracy.
> >>
> > >Me too. Always. But Barney doesn't swing like Christian, Raney,
> > >Wes, or Farlow.
Certainly not. He swings like Barney. Is someone saying that Christian
"swings" like Farlow? I didn't think so.
This is just flamebait. I'm done.
Nazodesu
<swin...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Yeah, right. Be sure and bring your attitude.
>
> It's just confidence, Tom. I find that the bandstand is the great
> equalizer.
Equalizing what? What can you play on the stand that informs on the
topic of what Louis Armstrong did or how he learned?
> Maybe you disagree, but I'm willing to put my shit on the line where
> it counts. Attitude, arrogance, whatever.
I'll take the whatever I guess, the others smack of bluster and
pomposity to me.
> At the end of the day, I'm ready to prove my knowledge on my
> instrument.
To whom? As you adequately demonstrated it's a question of personal
view. Clearly you have one. And it must be right, because you're
convinced.
That just leaves the rest of us. And for us there are your sweeping
generalizations.
Why are you starting all of these messages in a new thread with titles
that display like this:
=?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFJlOiBSZTogVGhvdWdodHMgYWJvdXQgQmFybmV5IEtlc3NlbLRzI
I'm sure it's the BETTER way, of course, I just wondered why... :-)
Nazodesu
Falcon <moder...@netscape.net> wrote:
> A little OT but in the interest of sharing, I was leafing through
> Oscar Peterson's bio at the bookstore and he had a lot of good things
> to say about Barney--he felt Barney was his equal, or at least it came
> across like that if I remember the text correctly.
Oscar Peterson was as deluded as the rest of us it seems...
Tom Walls
markkl...@hotmail.com says...
>
> Tom Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
> Whatever it was, it sounded
> >nothing like clips of you that I heard later.
>
> Tom, you've heard this dude's playing. What do you think, can I take him??:)
> (kidding, of course, well, sort of)
>
You'll definitely take him in the "most notes played per minute"
category! I don't know who would take the "demonstrates more thorough
knowledge of swing" category, because I've never heard you play
standards. You see how this come backs to haunt you! :<)
Jimmy Bruno
in good company. Just jokng. Doug your taste in music is very
different from most of this group, but I respect your opinion. WE all
don't have to like the same things. What do you think abut Wes?
SwingDoug wrote:
> Max Leggett wrote:
>
>>>I can't stand Barney's playing. He's really stiff and most of his records
>>
> don't
>
>>>appeal to me at all. Like that shit with the oboe? Yuck.
>>
>>Post your sound clips so we can learn from your vast store of
>>knowledge.
>
>
> Get mad all you want, it's not like Barney was your father. The reason I
> dislike his playing is because he wasn't really swinging, when compared to
> other players like Christian, Oscar Moore, or Farlow. And his technique was not
> sloppy because he was "going" for something improvisationally. I have
> thoroughly checked out every major jazz guitarist, and Barney is no exception.
> He never was a real improvisor in the truest sense. He played a lot of
> repetitive licks, as did many guitar players. There was a great precedent of
> guitarists before him with better technique. Django, Christian, Lang, Aleman,
> Bauer. But Barney never got that thing in his playing that made his playing
> appeal to me. If you dig him, that's fine. But it doesn't change his playing.
> And as for me "not hearing" what Barney is going for? That's simply not true.
> He was about guitar playing, not music. This is a common flaw of guitarists in
> jazz. Never have we had a guitar player with a real conceptual approach until
> Jim Hall.
>
>
>>>Um ... SwingDoug happens to be, Doug Wamble, the guitar player with the
>>
> Lincoln Centre Jazz Orchestra I believe.<<<
>
> No, I'm not. The LCJO has never had a regular guitar player. They hire me about
> twice a year and whenever else they need guitar, but that's it. And none of
> this has anything to do with Barney Kessell.
>
>
Mark Kleinhaut
Tom Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <3d77...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com>,
>markkl...@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> Tom Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
>> Whatever it was, it sounded
>> >nothing like clips of you that I heard later.
>>
>> Tom, you've heard this dude's playing. What do you think, can I take him??:)
>> (kidding, of course, well, sort of)
>>
>
>You'll definitely take him in the "most notes played per minute"
>category! I don't know who would take the "demonstrates more thorough
>knowledge of swing" category, because I've never heard you play
>standards. You see how this come backs to haunt you! :<)
>--
You saying my original stuff doesn't swing? People get killed over stuff
like that, don't you know:)
SwingDoug
> I
>thought they must have instructed you to play some atmospheric southern
>slide stuff. I thought it was "Big Train".
There was no slide on that record at all.
>How did it happen? A friend who lurks on RMB played something for me and
>identified you as the player and I didn't think it was all that.
That's cool. Maybe I'm not all that. Who knows. Get on the bandstand and show
me how to do it. I'm ready when you are, and we can skip the Armstrong stuff
and play whatever you want.
SwingDoug
>different from most of this group, but I respect your opinion.
Thanks. That's all it is. Just one man's opinion. It's funny, people can say
that Wynton Marsalis is the worst jazz musician in history and they'll get
voted into the RMB Hall Of Fame, but say one disparaging opinion of Barney
Kessell and you're branded the ant-Christ.
>What do you think abut Wes?
I love Wes. Smokin at the Half Note is, in my opinion, one of the few guitar
records that stands up against other great jazz records of that period.
Mark Kleinhaut
Jimmy Bruno <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote:
>NOw I've seen everything... even Barney Kessel gets flamed. I must be
>in good company. Just jokng. Doug your taste in music is very
>different from most of this group, but I respect your opinion. WE all
>don't have to like the same things. What do you think abut Wes?
>
Jesus Jimmy, you pick a fine time to show up. Where have you been? This
place has practically self distructed since you've last been here. Man,
get out a bottle of something strong and catch up....this stuff about Barney
ain't nothin.
Unknown
wrote:
>NOw I've seen everything... even Barney Kessel gets flamed. I must be
>in good company. Just jokng. Doug your taste in music is very
>different from most of this group, but I respect your opinion. WE all
>don't have to like the same things. What do you think abut Wes?
>
Wes, Wes. Everyone's always on about Wes. Tell me this - Did he ever
play Smoke On The Water??? Have you ever heard him play Stairway To
Heaven??? Ha! I thought not!
Tom Walls
swin...@aol.com says...
'Em".
Jimmy Bruno
threads. Don't have much time these days... still trying to get hold of
D'Andrea for Jack Zucker.
Jack, if you read this I lost all your info.
Anyway, Doug has his opinions and artistic aesthetic. It might strike
some of us as blasphemous but it doesn't make him a bad guy.
Tom Walls
>
> Tom Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
> >In article <3d77...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com>,
> >markkl...@hotmail.com says...
> >>
> >> Tom Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
> >> Whatever it was, it sounded
> >> >nothing like clips of you that I heard later.
> >>
> >> Tom, you've heard this dude's playing. What do you think, can I take him??:)
> >> (kidding, of course, well, sort of)
> >>
> >
> >You'll definitely take him in the "most notes played per minute"
> >category! I don't know who would take the "demonstrates more thorough
> >knowledge of swing" category, because I've never heard you play
> >standards. You see how this come backs to haunt you! :<)
> >--
>
> You saying my original stuff doesn't swing? People get killed over stuff
> like that, don't you know:)
>
>
Noooooooo....! I didn't mean that at all. I just thought there might be
some competition. The quality of Doug's playing was really nice, and
quite original. Geez you guys are so touchy! :<)
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020905133659...@mb-mk.aol.com> :
>>That is the real world.
>
>Come on over to New York and you'll figure a few things out that you might not
>have considered.
Done that, and you're right it always gives me new things to think
about. Maybe you need to get out of NY more and figure out a few
things you might not have considered. You seem to be resistant to
ideas which conflict with your own.
>And if I ever come through your town, you're welcome to come on my bandstand
>and we'll work out some swinging issues right there.
whatever Doug. I've got plenty of sound clips on the web if you feel
the need to compare penis sizes. btw, George Benson, who swings
harder than just about anybody, told me I was swinging. John Scofield
also told me I was swinging. I feel pretty good about my grasp of
*swing* I don't need validation from you. But if we find ourselves in
the same neighborhood at some point I'll keep your invitation in mind.
>>Listen to his solo on
>>the small group sides with Billy Holiday of "I've got a right to sing
>>the blues"
>
>Awful example. Terrible.
Oh well, I think it sounds great.
>>Barney was my hero
>
>Well, there you go.
I always love this creative editing when quoting someone else's post.
You're trying to imply that because I was at one time a big Kessel fan
that I can't view his playing objectively. You are mistaken.
>
>> You'd be lucky to swing as
>>hard as Barney.
>
>Not really. When you compare Barney to people who really swing out, like Wynton
>Kelly, Sonny Rollins, or Bird, then Barney comes up short. I'll aim higher,
>thanks.
I'm not saying Barney is the be-all, end-all of swing. But he DID
swing. I appreciate Sonny and Bird for what they did, I appreciate
Barney for what he did. It's not an either/or proposition.
>>So does that mean Ray Brown doesn't listen or Shelley Manne?
>
>Shelley was never an interactive drummer. Ray listens all the time, but I never
>said he didn't. Barney is the one who is oblivious to his rhythm sections.
You cited the lack of interplay or interaction in that trio as
evidence that Barney didn't listen. Since that was an egalitarian
trio I wondered why the other two were not also implicated.
>>jazz from the late 40's to present
>>can hear that he does might make you think that you are missing
>>something.
>
>All I can do is listen to the music with the same ears. I'm not biased towards
>the guitar just because I happen to play it. I don't let people off the hook so
>easily.
I feel the same way.
>Barney is good when compared to some, but put him up against a list of
>the top 50 jazz musicians, and he falls severly short in terms of creativity,
>swing and musicality.
I don't really care to get into all of that, good luck trying to find
consensus on the top 50 jazz musicians.. But you have been adamant
about the claim that Barney simply did not swing, this despite the
fact that so many major figures in jazz disagree with you. You're
entitled to your opinion, but just don't lose sight that that's all it
is... _your opinion_.
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020905133659...@mb-mk.aol.com> :
>>That is the real world.
>
>Come on over to New York and you'll figure a few things out that you might not
>have considered.
Done that, and you're right it always gives me new things to think
about. Maybe you need to get out of NY more and figure out a few
things you might not have considered. You seem to be resistant to
ideas which conflict with your own.
>And if I ever come through your town, you're welcome to come on my bandstand
>and we'll work out some swinging issues right there.
whatever Doug. I've got plenty of sound clips on the web if you feel
the need to compare penis sizes. btw, George Benson, who swings
harder than just about anybody, told me I was swinging. John Scofield
also told me I was swinging. I feel pretty good about my grasp of
*swing* I don't need validation from you. But if we find ourselves in
the same neighborhood at some point I'll keep your invitation in mind.
>>Listen to his solo on
>>the small group sides with Billy Holiday of "I've got a right to sing
>>the blues"
>
>Awful example. Terrible.
Oh well, I think it sounds great.
>>Barney was my hero
>
>Well, there you go.
I always love this creative editing when quoting someone else's post.
You're trying to imply that because I was at one time a big Kessel fan
that I can't view his playing objectively. You are mistaken.
>
>> You'd be lucky to swing as
>>hard as Barney.
>
>Not really. When you compare Barney to people who really swing out, like Wynton
>Kelly, Sonny Rollins, or Bird, then Barney comes up short. I'll aim higher,
>thanks.
I'm not saying Barney is the be-all, end-all of swing. But he DID
swing. I appreciate Sonny and Bird for what they did, I appreciate
Barney for what he did. It's not an either/or proposition.
>>So does that mean Ray Brown doesn't listen or Shelley Manne?
>
>Shelley was never an interactive drummer. Ray listens all the time, but I never
>said he didn't. Barney is the one who is oblivious to his rhythm sections.
You cited the lack of interplay or interaction in that trio as
evidence that Barney didn't listen. Since that was an egalitarian
trio I wondered why the other two were not also implicated.
>>jazz from the late 40's to present
>>can hear that he does might make you think that you are missing
>>something.
>
>All I can do is listen to the music with the same ears. I'm not biased towards
>the guitar just because I happen to play it. I don't let people off the hook so
>easily.
I feel the same way.
>Barney is good when compared to some, but put him up against a list of
>the top 50 jazz musicians, and he falls severly short in terms of creativity,
>swing and musicality.
I don't really care to get into all of that, good luck trying to find
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020905155943...@mb-me.aol.com> :
>>Doug your taste in music is very
>>different from most of this group, but I respect your opinion.
>
>Thanks. That's all it is. Just one man's opinion. It's funny, people can say
>that Wynton Marsalis is the worst jazz musician in history and they'll get
>voted into the RMB Hall Of Fame, but say one disparaging opinion of Barney
>Kessell and you're branded the ant-Christ.
That's hardly been what's happened in this thread. From what I can
see there are people intelligently trying to counter your claim about
Barney not swinging and you respond in turn by waving your dick
around. Your statements have been more inflammatory than anyone
else's in this thread.
SwingDoug
>things you might not have considered.
I've lived elsewhere, and played lots of places. But if you aren't here, you
aren't in the thick of the music. And that's not debatable.
>George Benson, who swings
>harder than just about anybody, told me I was swinging. John Scofield
>also told me I was swinging.
Yawn. So what? Talk to me when they hire you.
>But if we find ourselves in
>the same neighborhood at some point I'll keep your invitation in mind.
Be prepared.
>It's not an either/or proposition.
>
Sure it is. When you have a standard for how to swing being set by someone
great, and someone doesn't live up to that, hero worship doesn't matter
anymore.
> but just don't lose sight that that's all it
>is... _your opinion_.
I haven't. But have you lost sight of the fact that you may not have all the
information?
SwingDoug
>*swing* I don't need validation from you.
OK, well, I listened to your clips, and the first chorus of your solo on
Moontrane, your time was all over the place, never settled. You never played
the head in time on S.O.S. And you rush the time a lot in the solo from
Beautiful Love.
All of things things are contrary to swinging, in my opinion. Maybe you
disagree.
However, I found the solo guitar pieces to be really amazing. Giant Steps, in
particular.
IvanDRodriguez
Ivan
Thom_j.
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d77...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
>
> Tom Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
> Whatever it was, it sounded
> >nothing like clips of you that I heard later.
>
> Tom, you've heard this dude's playing. What do you think, can I take
him??:)
> (kidding, of course, well, sort of)
>
LeTs GeT rEaDy To RuMbLeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEe :)~
Thom_j.
Go Jimmy & tell'em about "crap." :) cheers old hip thom_j.
"Jimmy Bruno" <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote in message
news:3D77B855...@jimmybruno.com...
Thom_j.
Thom_j.
Rick Ross
:)
I have meaning to ask you...do you swing?
"Jimmy Bruno" <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote in message
news:3D77BD38...@jimmybruno.com...
Thom_j.
A Group Hugggggggg :)
SwingDoug
>> quite original. Geez you guys are so touchy! :<)
Check back, it wasn't me that posted the thing you're responding to.
Thom_j.
cheers thom_j.
"IvanDRodriguez" <ivandro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020905164801...@mb-bk.aol.com...
Thom_j.
cheers thom_j.
"Rick Ross" <rick...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:cJPd9.33830$WJ3.7...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Jim Weller
IMHO, the undisputed king of that genre. Incidentally, you may or may
not know this, but he is currently dying of inoperable brain cancer.
Very sad indeed.
Nazodesu
<ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote:
> Anyway, Doug has his opinions and artistic aesthetic.
Sure. We all do. That's fair.
> It might strike some of us as blasphemous but it doesn't make him a
> bad guy.
I think his line of attack makes him arrogant and antagonistic. I
think people who are arrogant and antagonistic are by definition "bad
guys". You can voice a lack of interest or a downright dislike for a
player without taking the "he can't swing" approach. Much beter if you
can cite a specific tune, period, instrument, something you
specifically think sucks.
You can like or dislike Barney or Wes or anyone else without
intentionally trying to be provocative, without trying to piss people
off. "Hey I just state my viewpoints and others can get pissed off if
they like." I frequently hear that from people who are *trying* to
piss people off.
I think Smokin' at the Half Note is the most overrated of all time. I
always have. That half ass stumble bum can't even tune his guitar.
Tuning; come on, is it that tough? It's not like he didn't play okay.
He did, but plays the same riffs over and over again. Hold page one!
Somebody played octaves. Yawn.
Nazodesu
<swin...@aol.com> wrote:
> I've lived elsewhere, and played lots of places. But if you aren't here, you
> aren't in the thick of the music. And that's not debatable.
It's not about what you know and what you can do, but about what town
you're in.
So very very lame...
Next it will be the string gauge that separates "real" players from all
us slackers.
Dan Adler
> Get mad all you want, it's not like Barney was your father. The reason I
> dislike his playing is because he wasn't really swinging
Boy, that Barney character almost had us fooled.
He fooled Sonny Rollins and Oscar Peterson into hiring him and
recording with him under their name.
He also fooled Jack Wilkins into including him in his top ten:
http://www.jackwilkins.com/interview1.htm
Don't you hate it when people do that?
SwingDoug
>you're in.
True. But if you want to be where the music is, you come to New York. This is
the place where you get your ass kicked daily, and all serious musicians must
come here at some point. I could easily go back to a small town and play music
just fine. But if I want to be challenged and get in the thick of things, I
come to New York. People who debate this are just the ones who don't want that
level of challenge.
SwingDoug
>player without taking the "he can't swing" approach
Why? I stated my opinion that Barney Kessell's music is not swinging, and some
have even agreed. He plays sloppy a lot of the time and he has terrible taste
at times (oboe!). That's my opinion. I fail to see why expressing an opinion
you don't like makes me "bad". I don't think you're bad because you can't get
with Smokin' at the Half Note. I could point out to you fifty reasons why that
is a great record, and you won't change your mind. But it doesn't make you
"bad". So get off that high horse.
SwingDoug
>recording with him under their name.
Is your skull so thick that you just can't accept my opinion? Or would it make
life easier for you if I kept them to myself next time. Or maybe you'd prefer
me to kiss your ass while expressing my opinions ina very PC way. Just let me
know what you need.
SwingDoug
What a childish way of thinking you have.
That was an interesting interview...but this quote was very telling...
"He(Farlow) and Jimmy Raney were really the first to play bebop on the guitar.
"Jazz" if you will... I don't know... bebop makes it sound kind of old
fashioned. "
This statement makes it sound like bebop and jazz are synonymous to Jack.
That's a very limited and uninformed viewpoint. I think people are so caught up
in the guitar that they forget to listen to and play music.
Joey Goldstein
hanging out in a loft somewhere privately discussing jazz it is actually
a public forum.
Criticism is one thing when offered up with respect and without
arrogance and is perfectly welcome here. But when you just try to hurt
people's feelings in public, like you have here with Kevin (and Barney's
not dead yet y'know?), in order to make some point that you are
convinced you are right about, it just looks bad on you.
So you live in New York and Wynton hires you to play some acoustic
guitar now and then. Big fucking deal. Who do you think you are man?
Lighten the fuck up.
It's great to have strong passionate opinions about this or that
player's abilities and it's great to be able to back up those opinions.
But you've been trying to dismiss Barney's entire career as meaningless
and at a time when the guy is actually dying. What's the matter with you?
I'm not a big Barney Kessel fan either but the guy can play. He's got
nothing to prove to you. He's made his contribution. He's going to still
be remembered long after you're dead and there's nothing you can say to
change that.
Geez.
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Thom_j.
"Nazodesu" <mus...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:050920021515232295%mus...@adelphia.net...
Well dammit its about string gauge now! I use .08s hahaha :)
Thom_j.
"SwingDoug" <swin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020905182417...@mb-ml.aol.com...
I am not really going to delve in this thread but Doug do you think
NYC is the only great spot for "jazz players" or other playing too?
Personally I have done most of my playing on the east'coast and I
just love NYC and Philly too, but not being familiar with the other
cities I wonder if NYC is "The Place"?.
cheers thom_j.
P.S. I have always had a big blast playing in the "village." Being
challenged? I just had fun, I never thought of it as a challenge..
SwingDoug
>people's feelings in public,
Oh I get it. Offering honest criticism of someone's playing is tantamount to
hurting their feelings? For one thing, I was honest with Kevin two ways. He
offered his sound clips as evidence to something and I gave him my opinion. For
all I know he heard mine and thinks I suck. I even told him that I liked his
solo guitar thing, so let's step back a minute.
>Who do you think you are man?
>
>So you live in New York and Wynton hires you to play some acoustic
>guitar now and then. Big fucking deal. Who do you think you are man?
Where did this come from? I don't look for validation based on Wynton or what
someone says about me. I am validated only by what I do.
>But you've been trying to dismiss Barney's entire career as meaningless
See, that's where your incapability to focus comes into play. Never have I said
that Barney's career was meaningless. Far from it. I acknowledge his importance
enough so that I myself spent a very long time listening to his music. I
offered my opinion of his playing, and you can't handle it. Plain and simple.
No one's dismissing anyone. I'm expressing an opinion. If you have a problem
with that, then I guess you're glad that our current administration is in
power.
>I'm not a big Barney Kessel fan either but the guy can play.
No doubt. Never said anything to the contrary. If you could divide your
defensive emotions from ONE PERSON'S OPINION, then you wouldn't be all in this
huff.
>He's going to still
>be remembered long after you're dead and there's nothing you can say to
>change that.
Nor would I try.
SwingDoug
>NYC is the only great spot for "jazz players" or other playing too?
It's not the only place to play, but it's the only place to be if you want to
work at the highest level of the music. People can make their case against
this, but the fact remains that every great musician comes to NY to be tested.
You have to do it to measure yourself against the best.
Jim Kroger
You act as though being in NYC is some measure of success. I've been
there and I've never heard of you.
--
Watch out for spam block
List of 30 online jazz guitar instruction websites:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jimkk/jazzfast.html
"Ars longa, vita brevis"
Rick Ross
I am the resident asshole in this group and really take offense to your
"swinging" in here from some parallel universe and making this feeble
attempt to usurp my throne..
I grew up in Queens and thus am no stranger to the New York "state of
mind"..why don't you come clean now and admit to everyone that you're just
breaking balls...as you said..you're in between gigs..and stressed over your
upcoming wedding..you have no website..no CD for purchase at this time..no
one's ever heard of you and occasionally you are asked to detail Wynton's
car..
OK...welcome to the group...
Now, I will need to pre-screen all your posts by private email.
Thanks
Rick
ps..the rest of youse guys all suck big time..
"SwingDoug" <swin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020905190121...@mb-fn.aol.com...
Joey Goldstein
SwingDoug wrote:
>
> >But when you just try to hurt
> >people's feelings in public,
>
> Oh I get it. Offering honest criticism of someone's playing is tantamount to
> hurting their feelings? For one thing, I was honest with Kevin two ways. He
> offered his sound clips as evidence to something and I gave him my opinion. For
> all I know he heard mine and thinks I suck. I even told him that I liked his
> solo guitar thing, so let's step back a minute.
>
> >Who do you think you are man?
>
> >
> >So you live in New York and Wynton hires you to play some acoustic
> >guitar now and then. Big fucking deal. Who do you think you are man?
>
> Where did this come from? I don't look for validation based on Wynton or what
> someone says about me. I am validated only by what I do.
Sure. But here people are assessing you by what you say and by how you
say it.
> >But you've been trying to dismiss Barney's entire career as meaningless
>
> See, that's where your incapability to focus comes into play. Never have I said
> that Barney's career was meaningless.
Well, the WAY that you have been expressing your opinions caused me in
particular to assume that this is what you have been doing. And with
Barney actually being so sick at the moment I think a little bit more
sensitivity on your part might be called for. But that's just MY
opinion. Take it or leave it.
> Far from it. I acknowledge his importance
> enough so that I myself spent a very long time listening to his music. I
> offered my opinion of his playing, and you can't handle it. Plain and simple.
Do you really think that everybody here would be jumping on you if it
really was that simple?
OBVIOUSLY it's the *way* that you are offering up your opinions that is
bugging folks around here. You are coming off as extremely arrogant but
maybe you don't see that.
> No one's dismissing anyone. I'm expressing an opinion. If you have a problem
> with that, then I guess you're glad that our current administration is in
> power.
Hah. Luckily I'm Canadian.
> >I'm not a big Barney Kessel fan either but the guy can play.
>
> No doubt. Never said anything to the contrary. If you could divide your
> defensive emotions from ONE PERSON'S OPINION, then you wouldn't be all in this
> huff.
>
> >He's going to still
> >be remembered long after you're dead and there's nothing you can say to
> >change that.
>
> Nor would I try.
--
Rick Ross
he's a subway musician...
the cat with the two cymbals tied to his ankles..
harmonica holder
dancing Chihuahua
"Jim Kroger" <jimkkre...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:3d77e935....@news.itd.umich.edu...
George4908
Odd, I never would have thought to put the words "little" and "Kate Smith" next
to each other in the same sentence.
thomas
> I've read the comment from a number of people on this newsgroup about
> Barney Kessel
> having sloppy or bad technique. Is that really true? I wouldn't set myself
> as a
> great judge of this (having pretty sloppy and bad technique myself) but when
> I listen to
> Barney I don't hear that at all. My own impression, from listening to a
> fairly wide selection
> of his recordings (and his style varied over the years), is that Barney
> sounded the way he
> wanted to sound and had excellent control over the instrument. To me that
> implies
> great technique. One may not like the way he phrased (particularly later in
> his career)
> but I have my doubts that this was due to his having bad technique.
> By the way I'm not just defending one of my favourites here - the suggestion
> that he
> had bad technique just doesn't make sense to me.
Yours is a subtle and inportant observation. After a guy has
been playing at the top professional levels for many decades,
he is beyond criticism on his technique. Clearly a guy at that
level sounds the way he sounds because he and others like it
that way.
That said, Barney did employ some rhythmic indeterminacy and
some clammy-sounding articulations, but so did Tal Farlow. Who's
to say that the sounds they made were inferior just because
they don't conform to the standards of classical technique?
I've heard guys in the classical ng slam Yamashita for
bad tone, which is just insane. Obviously a technical
monster like Yamashita sounds the way he wants to
sound. It may not be the tone you like, but it's the
tone he intends to get. The same argument applies
to Barney and his sloppiness.
thomas
>
> If you can't hear the difference between the way Christian and Raney played and
> Kessell, then I don't know what to say. Barney was missing the element of blues
> awareness.
Now you're just trolling. There is more blues in Barney's style
than either CC or Raney. Not that "blues awareness"--whatever
that is--is an indicator of quality. But if you want blue notes
and string bending in the blues style, you'll find more in
BK than those two guys put together.
Thom_j.
"George4908" <georg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020905200222...@mb-bj.aol.com...
Dan Adler
It looks like there is some law of conservation of jerks in RMMGJ. As
soon as we lose one, we gain back a new and improved one. The sad
thing is that we could have probably learned a thing or two from this
latest deadbeat. Oh, well.
John Pin
is it about the music?
Or is it about Guitar?
Or is it aout Ego?
Or is about the "test".
Its number one isnt it. THe music.
Whenther it be called Jazz..who cares.
When the music is right..its great.
The ego's, and all the hype..is bullshit.
Its about people playing music they feel communicates.
Not about cuttings someone on the bandstand.
Id be happy to trade a couple of chouruses with you. Im saying i'd blow you
away. Im saying, my life and passion has led me to
play a different story from yours. It will swing, it will contain all those
clever things we discus in harmony threads if i want it to..if i hear it
that night,
it will be a different musical story than yours.
Stop this talk about cutting on the bandstand...its doesnt help you and how
people percieve you.
"SwingDoug" <swin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020905190309...@mb-fn.aol.com...
SwingDoug
>that is
LOL! It's funny that you neglect what is so obviously there in the music. Like
blues awareness lies in bent notes and blue notes. What a hoot.
SwingDoug
>thing is that we could have probably learned a thing or two from this
>latest deadbeat. Oh, well.
I'm a "deadbeat" and a "jerk" because I don't think Barney Kessell's music is
swinging? That's an interesting take on it. But I apoligize for coming around
and stating an unpopular opinion. I stand by it, but I won't divert the
eloquent sharing of hugs and happy times any longer.
Cheers!
Doug Wamble
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020905163856...@mb-fq.aol.com> :
>> I feel pretty good about my grasp of
>>*swing* I don't need validation from you.
>
>OK, well, I listened to your clips, and the first chorus of your solo on
>Moontrane, your time was all over the place, never settled. You never played
>the head in time on S.O.S. And you rush the time a lot in the solo from
>Beautiful Love.
>
>All of things things are contrary to swinging, in my opinion. Maybe you
>disagree.
Thanks for listening. And no, I don't disagree with much of what you
say. Tweaky time can definitely be contrary to swinging. Though
sometimes pushing and/or pulling is a desired element in
improvisation. Just as playing up on the beat or laying back on it a
little can be effective too. (basically the same thing, but not
necessarily I suppose) Where I would disagree with your assessment is
that I think the first chorus of Moontrane actually came off with a
time feel within range of what I was going for. I think it does get a
little tweaky the second chorus though. S.O.S. is rushed, I know but
shit, that's a hard tune and at that tempo. We just ripped off that
one take simply because we were there in the studio and it was fun to
give it a shot. I think there are still some nice moments in that
track. Beautiful Love has one or two places where I push it a bit,
but those are places where I'm reaching for something and the push is
a byproduct of the intensity level. Even though in all these cases I
may not have intended for certain lines or phrases to come off in
quite the way they do, I don't think it overly mars an otherwise nice
performance. Virtually everything I've ever recorded I can listen to
and think "Oh I wish I had done this little bit differently", but I
also accept that each recording is just a snapshot of one moment. I
am comfortable enough with what I do to let that snapshot stand alone,
for all it's strengths and flaws. I feel I'm able to stand back and
be objective about my own recordings. It doesn't matter if it's
exactly what I had in mind or not, if it sounds good it is good
right? I guess I'm focusing more on the doughnut than the hole.
There may be some shakey moments here and there but overall it is all
swinging pretty hard. I'd much rather hear someone reaching for
something and ocassionally missing than hear someone playing it safe
no matter how clean the execution is.
I'm getting better at recording, but I know that I still get a little
tense in the studio and that tension definitely disrupts my feel. I
think I'm better at it now then I was at the time all those sessions
were recorded (about 2 years ago). But at least I am fully aware of
all this and what I'm trying to work on is my *execution*. This has
nothing to do with my grasp or understanding of swing, which I repeat,
I feel good about.
>However, I found the solo guitar pieces to be really amazing. Giant Steps, in
>particular.
Glad you liked them. Did you listen to the other organ trio tune "C
Minor"? I think that one probably swings the hardest.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.onestopjazz.com/kvansant
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Joe Finn
Doug is the only-est guitar player to work with Wynton at Lincoln Center as
far as I know. The little bit of his playing that I've heard is really good
and I like it a lot. Doug has my admiration and respect.
Keep swingin' Doug. ........joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
"SwingDoug" <swin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020906000603...@mb-dd.aol.com...
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Kevin Van Sant
message <20020906000603...@mb-dd.aol.com> :
>I'm a "deadbeat" and a "jerk" because I don't think Barney Kessell's music is
>swinging? That's an interesting take on it. But I apoligize for coming around
>and stating an unpopular opinion.
I think most everyone in this group welcomes whatever opinions.
Speaking for myself I'm not in the least offended by your opinion on
Barney, I just happen to disagree and have tried to tell you why. I
think you were probably labeled a jerk by someone because you seem to
have a hard time discussing things with people who disagree with you
without being a prick about it.
Joey Goldstein
I'd be interested in hearing what "blues awarenes" means to you Doug if
you'd care to share with us rather than make combat.
SwingDoug
Yeah, but it's my bad for saying something that people think is bullshit. They
want their opinions, but god forbid someone share one they don't like, and even
worse if they don't say it with 100 of the necessary qualifiers.
>
>Doug is the only-est guitar player to work with Wynton at Lincoln Center as
>far as I know.
Rusell Malone, Howard Collins, Howard Alden and Don Vappie have all been there
before me. Besides, it's very clear that on this group, working with Wynton is
nothing to be proud of. They can judge me on my record which will come out
early next year.
This whole discussion has been fruitless and I truly apoligize if I have
offended anyone in the slightest. It was not my intention.
Kevin Van Sant
message <20020906003748...@mb-dd.aol.com> :
>Besides, it's very clear that on this group, working with Wynton is
>nothing to be proud of.
Why do you say that? I think you're carring over your RMB baggage to
this group.
Mark Kleinhaut
Jesus Christ on a bike! It's almost 1AM people (at least in Maine it is)
Go to fuck'n bed already and give this shit a rest!
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
Kevin Van Sant
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<3d78...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com> :
>
>Jesus Christ on a bike! It's almost 1AM people (at least in Maine it is)
> Go to fuck'n bed already and give this shit a rest!
so what are YOU doing up Mark? :) Me? I've just come back from my
gig.
SwingDoug
>this group.
Not at all. Several people have stated to me in this thread that they think
that playing with Wynton isn't shit. I never, for the record, said it was. Nor
did I root my opinions in my so-called "credentials". My credentials are
minimal, as of yet, so I know better than to rely on them. I rely on the things
I've learned through hard study.
There is no baggage.
Nazodesu
<rick...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Doug....
> I am the resident asshole in this group and really take offense to your
> "swinging" in here from some parallel universe and making this feeble
> attempt to usurp my throne..
> I grew up in Queens and thus am no stranger to the New York "state of
> mind"..
What neighborhood, Rick? Me, Astoria. In the 70's it was Manhattan.
The minute I left it was like wow the chops just leaked out with every
mile on the odometer. Amazing... By the time I got to SoCal, I
couldn't even figure out how a guitar CASE was operated.
Joe Finn
> I've just come back from my
> gig.
Same here. Ha!
It's hard work but somebody's got to do it. 8-) .....joe
Joe Finn
>
> Rusell Malone, Howard Collins, Howard Alden and Don Vappie have all been >
there
Thanks for the heads up. I'm a little behind.
> before me. Besides, it's very clear that on this group, working with
Wynton is
> nothing to be proud of.
You're shittin' me, right?
>They can judge me on my record which will come out
> early next year.
>
I'm looking forward to hearing it. ....joe
Nazodesu
<swin...@aol.com> wrote:
> >The sad
> >thing is that we could have probably learned a thing or two from this
> >latest deadbeat. Oh, well.
>
> I'm a "deadbeat" and a "jerk" because I don't think Barney Kessell's music is
> swingingd?
No, not at all. You're a screaming prick about every damn thing you
shriek about. And, as you say, "not debatable". If you can't make it
offensive apparently you can't say it. Barney is clearly wholly
irrelevant in assessing your social ineptitiude. I haven't heard a lick
of your playing but wouldn't piss your CD if Bird descended from the
heavens and handed it to me.
Sometimes a players abilities have less to do with it than the stench
he brings to the gig.
Joe Finn
>
> Not at all. Several people have stated to me in this thread that they
think
> that playing with Wynton isn't shit. I never, for the record, said it was.
Nor
> did I root my opinions in my so-called "credentials". My credentials are
> minimal, as of yet, so I know better than to rely on them. I rely on the
things
> I've learned through hard study.
>
> There is no baggage.
You slay me, man. If you need a sub, say the word. ...joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Nazodesu
<swin...@aol.com> wrote:
> >It's not about what you know and what you can do, but about what town
> >you're in.
>
> True. But if you want to be where the music is, you come to New York. This is
> the place where you get your ass kicked daily, and all serious musicians must
> come here at some point. I could easily go back to a small town and play music
> just fine. But if I want to be challenged and get in the thick of things, I
> come to New York. People who debate this are just the ones who don't want that
> level of challenge.
It's true some people can only play well if they are getting their ass
kicked daily. The rest get discipline from somewhere else or have the
vain belief that an ass-kicking doesn't make them good.