Hiram Bullock
isaac
I believe that is the name of the guitarist who
played on the Jaco live in NY CD's. He is the
only jazz guitarist I have heard that I can
get into. I love jazz and I love the guitar
but Scofield, Montgomery, Holdsworth, Methany,
Dimeola and everyone else I have listened to
just don't do it for me. They are all great
players and I listen to their stuff critically
for insight but not just for enjoyment. For
listening pleasure I listen to Monk, Oscar
Peterson, Miles and the one CD I have featuring
Bullock, can enyone recomend others like him or
tell me of other records he has played on.
thanks,
isaac.
Stan Gosnell
isaac <dave...@colorado.edu> wrote:
If you like Oscar Peterson, you should like Herb Ellis. He played in
Oscar's trio for years.
Speaking of Herb Ellis, has anyone else heard his "Texas Swings" CD?
It's great, including jazz on violin & steel guitar. If you haven't
heard "Billie's Bounce" with a solo by a steel, you haven't heard it
all.......
Boerge Soleng
>isaac (dave...@colorado.edu) wrote:
>: get into. I love jazz and I love the guitar
>: but Scofield, Montgomery, Holdsworth, Methany,
>: Dimeola and everyone else I have listened to
>: just don't do it for me. They are all great
>: tell me of other records he has played on.
How can you love jazz and love guitar and not love Scofield,
Montgomery and Metheny????? You can't love jazzguitar.......
Personally I don't consider Bullock a jazz player at all. The only fine thing
I've heard from him is his solo on Sting's version of "Little Wing", and
that's pretty far from what I would call jazz.....
Boerge Soleng, bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no
__________________________________________________________________
"Nice touch!" (Miles Davis about Herbie Hancock)
James1198
Boerge writes....
"Personally I don't consider Bullock a jazz player at all. The only fine
thing
I've heard from him is his solo on Sting's version of "Little Wing", and
that's pretty far from what I would call jazz....."
I believe Hiram played on quite a few of David Sandborn's cd's as well as
the Miles CD that Marcus Miller produced. Some years back there was a tv
show produce by Lorne Micheals of "Saturday Night Live" fame called
"Michelob present Sunday Night." The house band was Dacid Sandborn, Marcus
Miller, Phillip Saisse (sp?), George Duke, Omar Hakim and Bullock. he did
some amazing things backing everyone from Dizzy to Miles. He never seemed
to fit the category of "up front man" like George Benson or Lee Ritenour,
but rather did an incredible job in a supporting role.
If you get a chance to see any tapes from this show, please do! The
musicality and combinations of players were incredible...like the time
Santana player with Wayne shorter....
Best regards to all,
James Dawson
Patrick M. McMillin
isaac (dave...@colorado.edu) wrote:
: get into. I love jazz and I love the guitar
: but Scofield, Montgomery, Holdsworth, Methany,
: Dimeola and everyone else I have listened to
: just don't do it for me. They are all great
: Bullock, can enyone recomend others like him or
: tell me of other records he has played on.
This is not meant as a flame, but I would have
a very hard time recommending good guitar to
someone who says that the above players, especially
Montgomery, are not adequate listening. I am
sure however, that Mr. Bullock accepts the compliment
gratefully.
|)
/
/| Patrick M. McMillin
/ |__ The University of Texas at Austin
( (|_ ) patri...@mail.utexas.edu
\_|_/
J
Bob Patterson
Hiram was also the original guitar player in the David Letterman band.
The original lineup was: Paul Shaeffer, Will Lee, Hiram Bullock, and
Steve Jordan.
What a combo.
--
Bob Patterson
b...@jazzguitar.com
JAZZ GUITAR ONLINE
http://www.jazzguitar.com
Graydon D. Stuckey
On 14 Oct 1996, James1198 wrote:
> Boerge writes....
>
> "Personally I don't consider Bullock a jazz player at all. The only fine
> thing
> I've heard from him is his solo on Sting's version of "Little Wing", and
> that's pretty far from what I would call jazz....."
I guess Bullock is not a "classic" jazz player, but definitely a jazz
player nonetheless. I have listened to his first solo album, and there
is some great playing on that one. He backed up Marcus Miller at
Miller's Detroit concert last year, and Hiram certainly helped put on a
great show. He played through Two (2) ! Fender Twins! He didn't do
anything to really blow me away, but everything he did was very good.
Marcus was a real groovemaster though.
Later, ----------------------------------------------------------
Graydon D. Stuckey '85 Mazda RX7 GS, no toys
gra...@apollo.gmi.edu '86 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro, has toys
Flint, Michigan USA '89 Thunderbird SC, lotsa toys
isaac
Patrick M. McMillin wrote:
>
> isaac (dave...@colorado.edu) wrote:
> : get into. I love jazz and I love the guitar
> : but Scofield, Montgomery, Holdsworth, Methany,
> : Dimeola and everyone else I have listened to
> : just don't do it for me. They are all great
> : Bullock, can enyone recomend others like him or
> : tell me of other records he has played on.
>
> This is not meant as a flame, but I would have
> a very hard time recommending good guitar to
> someone who says that the above players, especially
> Montgomery, are not adequate listening. I am
> sure however, that Mr. Bullock accepts the compliment
> gratefully.
I didn't mean to say anything depricating about any of the
above mentioned jazz guitarist. I attempted to say that
stylistically none of them appeals to me the way that say
Monk does. I admire all of their playing skills and that is
reason enough to listen to them. However, as I search for
jazz guitar role models, I would really like to find someone
with a style that appeals to me as much as Oscar Peterson's
does.
I have one Earl Klugh album but it is one of his so called
"lighter jazz" efforts. Can any one recomend, perhaps, an
earlier album of his that swings a little harder?
thanks,
isaac.
Mr D
One of the best combo's ever!
Old-Fashioned Staffordshire Plate...
In article <32614C...@colorado.edu>, dave...@colorado.edu writes...
>I believe that is the name of the guitarist who
>played on the Jaco live in NY CD's. He is the
>only jazz guitarist I have heard that I can
>get into.
Haven't heard him, but his sister is really hot.
Tom O'Toole - ecf_...@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu - tom.o...@jhu.edu
JHUVMS system programmer - http://jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu/~ecf_stbo/
This message has been brought to you by bill gates, inventor of the internet
What monopoly do you want to flip the bird at today?
Giri Iyengar
Nice troll.
..Giri
roland
If you like Hiram and his "bluesy" approach I recommend
Scott Henderson (esp. his cd "Gog Party" is great stuff).
Check also Michael Landau, he playes nice grunge-jazz <grin>
Roland
CLAY MOORE
Boerge Soleng wrote:
>
> >isaac (dave...@colorado.edu) wrote:
> >: get into. I love jazz and I love the guitar
> >: but Scofield, Montgomery, Holdsworth, Methany,
> >: Dimeola and everyone else I have listened to
> >: just don't do it for me. They are all great
> >: Bullock, can enyone recomend others like him or
> >: tell me of other records he has played on.
>
> Montgomery and Metheny????? You can't love jazzguitar.......
> I've heard from him is his solo on Sting's version of "Little Wing", and
> that's pretty far from what I would call jazz.....
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> "Nice touch!" (Miles Davis about Herbie Hancock)
I wish Sting would have asked Eric Johnson to play that solo in "Little
Wing". Hiram plays well as an ensemble player but....
Clay in Austin
CLAY MOORE
I believe that's "Dog Party". "Dr. Hee" is my fave.
Clay in Austin
isaac
Thanks for all the suggestions I got. I did
get a micheal Landua CD and Hirams latetest
"manny's car wash." Of course it couldn't
compare to having Joco on bass but I have
some new ideas to work with now. I think
my personal challenge (which I shall never
meet of course) is to try to do to the guitar what
Monk did to the piano. I have heard that many
musicians go through a Monk phase. Anyone
lived to tell the tale?
thanks,
isaac.
isaac
Perhaps the other poster had it right. I really dig
Eric Johnson and Stevie Ray but I would really like
to be able to speak with their integrity in an idiom
(language) closer to jazz.
i.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <326970...@colorado.edu> dave...@colorado.edu writes:
>some new ideas to work with now. I think
>my personal challenge (which I shall never
>meet of course) is to try to do to the guitar what
>Monk did to the piano. I have heard that many
>musicians go through a Monk phase. Anyone
>lived to tell the tale?
I'm trying lately to be Count Basie on guitar. I think that Scofield
and Steve Khan are two guitarists who remind me of Monk a little.
CLAY MOORE
Hi Isaac,
At the risk of starting a flame war, I don't think Eric Johnson and
Stevie Ray Vaughn belong in the same category, although I think
SRV did what he did very well. Eric is an astounding guitar player,
and he has the ears and concepts to play over tunes with changes,
which SRV did not IMHO. Back in the old days Eric apparently used
to jam with a lot of the jazz players in town. The only time I know
that he has done that recently was on a new years eve gig with my
regular band, the Tomas Ramirez group. Unfortunately for me I had
subbed the gig out because I had one that paid more!
Clay in Austin
isaac
Perhaps, however SRV played, as I percieve it, from the heart and
was able to use chordal melodies with taste, something that isn't
done often in any idiom where guitar has crept in. Granted there
are players who do it well, but SRV is one of the few who does it
in a way that speaks to me. As to Eric's playing with jazz, I have
only heard Ah, via Musicom, Tones and two live shows so I can't really
comment on the size of ones genre vs. another. For the
record I do believe that the size of ones genre does matter, regardless
of what ones mother tells him. :) I also don't consider something
a flame until the blue text comes across the screen or people
get into politics/religion. :) I don't want to set up a thread
in the NG that is unrelated to jazz guitar, but taking the blues
out of jazz is a difficult and undesireable thing.
i.
Boerge Soleng
>At the risk of starting a flame war, I don't think Eric Johnson and
>Stevie Ray Vaughn belong in the same category, although I think
>SRV did what he did very well. Eric is an astounding guitar player,
>and he has the ears and concepts to play over tunes with changes,
>which SRV did not IMHO.
After reading about him in all the guitar magazines, I decided to check out
Eric Johnson some years ago, so I bought his "Ah via musicom". The guy's
obviously a hell of a player, but once again the compositions are
dissapointing. I think the record was rather weak even though he's a very
competent player. But even if he's probably a much more sophisticated player
both harmonically and melodically speaking than SRV, he's nowhere in the
nearing of having the tremendous drive and punch of that guy. A lot of the
younger LA players can sound like Eric Johnson, but I haven't heard one blues
player till this day that have the punch, energy and style that could mix him
up with SRV.
roland
Hi Clay, you are right just another of my favorit typos.. pls. forgive
me.... and yes Dr. Hee is great too, but I was amazed how deep Scott
is into the blues....
Roland in Germany
CLAY MOORE
Sorry to disagree, but unless you've seen Eric live I'd have to question
your assessment of him. I've seen both players, and Eric is simply
awesome in person. He is also one of the nicest people I know, not that
that has anything to do with this discussion. Yes, there are a lot of
young players with big chops, just as here in Austin there are dozens
of smokin' blues players that owe a heavy debt to Stevie Ray. I don't think
the LA players that you claim sound like Eric could touch him any more
than the SRV wannabes can touch SRV.
I used to live a couple of blocks from Antone's, a local club that is
Austin's "Home of the Blues". I saw lots of amazing blues dudes and
dudettes, and several of them I would put in the category of being able
to hang tough with SRV. Albert Collins was one in particular, his shows
were so energetic and inspiring.
Clay in Austin
G. Jeffrey Gower
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Boerge Soleng wrote:
> But even if he's (Eric Johnson) probably a much more sophisticated player
> nearing of having the tremendous drive and punch of that guy. A lot of the
> younger LA players can sound like Eric Johnson, but I haven't heard one blues
> player till this day that have the punch, energy and style that could mix him
> up with SRV.
Yep. I agree 100%. I get very bored with Johnson's playing (as amazing
as it is pyrotechnically), but I can listen to and watch SRV all damned
day. I don't think what SRV was doing is very "sophisticated" at all -
mainly pentatonic blues and such, but the "SOUL" of that man was
unlimited. And to me, that is what is MOST important in any musician.
Hell, I have played classical and jazz guitar for over 25 years, and to this
day, there is nothing more mind-numbingly boring and unsoulful to me than a
typical classical guitar recital - so I really don't place technical
prowess or "sophistication" very high on my priorities list when it comes to my
favorite guitarists.
Speaking of SRV, PBS had a fund-drive recently (what else is new, eh?)
and they aired the SRV special followed by the SRV tribute special with
the likes of Robert Vaughan, Eric Clapton, BB King, etc., you name 'em,
they were there. What a great set of shows - great playing by all. But
ol' SRV cleaned all their clocks, IMO. What a loss.
Jeff
Jim Kroger
In article <borges.33...@fiskforsk.norut.no>,
bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no (Boerge Soleng) wrote:
= In article <326AD7...@ix.netcom.com> CLAY MOORE
<cmo...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
=
= >At the risk of starting a flame war, I don't think Eric Johnson and
= >Stevie Ray Vaughn belong in the same category, although I think
= >SRV did what he did very well. Eric is an astounding guitar player,
= >and he has the ears and concepts to play over tunes with changes,
= >which SRV did not IMHO.
=
= After reading about him in all the guitar magazines, I decided to check out
= Eric Johnson some years ago, so I bought his "Ah via musicom". The guy's
= obviously a hell of a player, but once again the compositions are
= dissapointing. I think the record was rather weak even though he's a very
= competent player. But even if he's probably a much more sophisticated player
= both harmonically and melodically speaking than SRV, he's nowhere in the
= nearing of having the tremendous drive and punch of that guy. A lot of the
= younger LA players can sound like Eric Johnson, but I haven't heard one blues
= player till this day that have the punch, energy and style that could mix him
= up with SRV.
=
=
= Boerge Soleng, bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no
= __________________________________________________________________
= "Nice touch!" (Miles Davis about Herbie Hancock)
Well, there's the thing. I spent 76 to 89 in Austin, seeing
both of these guys cut their teeth and make their reps in Austin (EJ
before SRV, btw, EJ was playing with the Electromagnets in 76, I have
an unopened copy of their album, any offers?, and SRV came out a few years
later, starting out just as Jimmy's success with the Thunderbirds was
taking off, to my recollection).
They are so day and night it's tough to make meaningful comparisons. Might
as well try to compare Leadbelly to Mozart. EJ is artistry taken to
extreme limits, SRV was all heart. There was this painting about 10 feet
tall by the stage in the Armadillo World Headquarters of Freddie King's
face all scrunched up while bending the heck out of a note and an
armadillo exploding straight out of his heart. That's SRV.
Funny everyone repeats SRV's assertion that Kenny Burrell was a big
influence. I just heard Burrell and Herb Ellis on two consecutive nights,
and I think Ellis is much more SRV-ish than Burrell.
Jim
--
====================================================================
Jim Kroger
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96102...@mhc.mtholyoke.edu>,
"G. Jeffrey Gower" <jgo...@mtholyoke.edu> wrote:
sical guitar recital - so I really don't place technical
= prowess or "sophistication" very high on my priorities list when it
comes to my
= favorite guitarists.
= Speaking of SRV, PBS had a fund-drive recently (what else is new, eh?)
= and they aired the SRV special followed by the SRV tribute special with
= the likes of Robert Vaughan, Eric Clapton, BB King, etc., you name 'em,
= they were there. What a great set of shows - great playing by all. But
= ol' SRV cleaned all their clocks, IMO. What a loss.
Yeah, no kidding. I saw SRV open for Johnny Winter, David Bowie,
Jeff Beck and others I've forgotten. Each time, after he was done,
there was just nothing left for the main act to do. SRV completely
demolished any act I ever saw him open for. After that energy anything
else could not help but be a letdown.
Jim
--
====================================================================
Boerge Soleng
>Sorry to disagree, but unless you've seen Eric live I'd have to question
>your assessment of him. I've seen both players, and Eric is simply
>awesome in person.
I've only heard "Ah via musicom" and never heard him live, so my judgements
are only based on that one record. With that as a starting point, I think
comparing Johnson with SRV is a rather weird comparison. As far as I can see
they are completely different players, operating in pretty different styles.
> He is also one of the nicest people I know, not that
>that has anything to do with this discussion. Yes, there are a lot of
>young players with big chops, just as here in Austin there are dozens
>of smokin' blues players that owe a heavy debt to Stevie Ray. I don't think
>the LA players that you claim sound like Eric could touch him any more
>than the SRV wannabes can touch SRV.
Well, I'm not sure I would be able to pick out Eric Johnson by ear, but I'm
pretty sure I could pick out SRV from most players. There are a lot of great
LA players that in my ears do much of the same stuff as Eric Johnson. As an
example I bought Mike Landau's "Tales from the bulge" some days ago, and some
of his stuff is pretty close to what Johnson does in my ears.
>I used to live a couple of blocks from Antone's, a local club that is
>Austin's "Home of the Blues". I saw lots of amazing blues dudes and
>dudettes, and several of them I would put in the category of being able
>to hang tough with SRV. Albert Collins was one in particular, his shows
>were so energetic and inspiring.
Well, I don't agree with you about this one. Collins is obviously a strong
blues player, but I don't think I ever would mix up him and SRV. To my ears
SRV has this extreme drive and punch that I've never heard from any other
blues players. He's also far beyond average technique for a blues player, and
his heavy string, guitar setup and strong attack gave him a sound that was
unique. Though he wasn't a master of blowing on changes, he had a melodic
vocabulary more advanced than most blues players. The blues record I've found
to be closest to SRV is actually some of the stuff on Scott Henderson's "Dog
Party". There's a few passages in there that could sound somewhat similar to
SRV.
But don't get me wrong; Eric Johnson is definitely a scary player, from what
I've heard he doesn't really have a very unique and identifyable sound or
style. But again; my judgements are only based on checking out "Ah via
musicom" so maybe I'm completely wrong????
Boerge Soleng, bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no
__________________________________________________________________
Tantivy Mucker-Maffit
Bill Frisell has a monk(f)ish approach quite often, especially when
comping behind the other soloists in his band. If you listen to the
version of "Resistor" from This Land you'll hear some spikey angular
lines and chord fragments - a little like Monk's comping. The blues
intro to "Monica Jane" is quite reminiscent of Monk's solo piano
tunes. "Pip Squeak" from Before We were Born (also on Live) is also a
Monklike composition - it's angular and quirky but still somehow
manages to swing !!
He's also covered a couple of Monk tunes - "Hackensack" on Lookout for
Hope and "Straight No Chaser" on the Ginger Baker Trio's Going Back
Home
I've worked out how to play some of these tunes and they're quite
hard: especially with regard to keeping all your fingers in the right
place at the right time. He uses some odd intervals and changes right
hand style frequently, often in the middle of a line !!
Sometimes Frisell reminds me of Eric Dolphy, particularly when he's playing
with Don Byron - he uses the same angular lines and large leaps, as well as
quick changes of tempo. I've been trying to capture some of Dolphy's playing
rercently - it's also not easy - I've worked out, but can't quite play, the
head to "Out There" - from Out There (obviously) This is quite the most
difficult thing I've tried to play - I thank sax and clarinet can more easily
play larger interval leaps in melodic lines than guitar. I've also worked out
Serene and "The Baron" from the same album and Out to Lunch. I've also worked
out his version of "Epistrophy" from Last Date. Dolphy's become one of my
favourite musicians but I'm struggling to get anywhere near his fluidity and
grace. I think guitar must be one of the most difficult instruments on which to
play in this way - I can become quite fluid when playing close chromatic
passages, but incorporating chord arpeggios into this is difficult. I'm getting
better though !!!
Ken Whelan
k.wh...@tay.ac.uk
CLAY MOORE
Boerge Soleng wrote:
>
> In article <326B8C...@ix.netcom.com> CLAY MOORE <cmo...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >Sorry to disagree, but unless you've seen Eric live I'd have to question
> >your assessment of him. I've seen both players, and Eric is simply
> >awesome in person.
>
> I've only heard "Ah via musicom" and never heard him live, so my judgements
> are only based on that one record. With that as a starting point, I think
> comparing Johnson with SRV is a rather weird comparison. As far as I can see
> they are completely different players, operating in pretty different styles.
I thought that too, but someone along here put out the statement that they
would like to play like SRV and EJ, but in a jazz context. My original point
was that EJ *CAN* do that, and IMO SRV could not. SRV recorded a tune called
"Riviera Paradise" (I think) and as the changes get further from the key it
starts in Vaughn plays less and less, and what he plays becomes less convincing.
I knew that any comparison would get people going, which is why I'm usually
reluctant to make them. Eric is very solid on the blues, and in fact he and
SRV were friends and inspirations to each other. Eric is an extremely
comprehensive player; he can play country, rock and roll, fusion, blues as
down and dirty as it gets, and I once saw him open for Alan Holdsworth playing
just a nylon string guitar.
>
> > He is also one of the nicest people I know, not that
> >that has anything to do with this discussion. Yes, there are a lot of
> >young players with big chops, just as here in Austin there are dozens
> >of smokin' blues players that owe a heavy debt to Stevie Ray. I don't think
> >the LA players that you claim sound like Eric could touch him any more
> >than the SRV wannabes can touch SRV.
>
> Well, I'm not sure I would be able to pick out Eric Johnson by ear, but I'm
> pretty sure I could pick out SRV from most players. There are a lot of great
> LA players that in my ears do much of the same stuff as Eric Johnson. As an
> example I bought Mike Landau's "Tales from the bulge" some days ago, and some
> of his stuff is pretty close to what Johnson does in my ears.
Well, again it's a matter of degree. Some players might sound something like
EJ, but he has been a monster player for close to 30 years, and I doubt
there are many who would agree with you if they had spent any time around him.
>
> >I used to live a couple of blocks from Antone's, a local club that is
> >Austin's "Home of the Blues". I saw lots of amazing blues dudes and
> >dudettes, and several of them I would put in the category of being able
> >to hang tough with SRV. Albert Collins was one in particular, his shows
> >were so energetic and inspiring.
>
> Well, I don't agree with you about this one. Collins is obviously a strong
> blues player, but I don't think I ever would mix up him and SRV. To my ears
> SRV has this extreme drive and punch that I've never heard from any other
> blues players. He's also far beyond average technique for a blues player, and
> his heavy string, guitar setup and strong attack gave him a sound that was
> unique. Though he wasn't a master of blowing on changes, he had a melodic
> vocabulary more advanced than most blues players. The blues record I've found
> to be closest to SRV is actually some of the stuff on Scott Henderson's "Dog
> Party". There's a few passages in there that could sound somewhat similar to
> SRV.
I wouldn't have thought so either about Collins, because his records didn't
capture his amazing live presence. The times I saw him at Antones he whipped
the audience into a frenzy. He didn't have near the chops SRV had,
but I thought a big part of this discussion was about feel and drive, and Collins
definitely had that. I might also remind you that it was players like Collins and
especially Albert King that SRV drew his bag from, and as cool as SRV was at
assimilating them, *they* made it up.
Yeah, "Dog Party" nails SRV's thing pretty well.
Scott was very deliberate in that, down to changing his rig to get closer to
SRV. I saw his band not long ago (at Antone's, oddly enough) and he *smoked*
through some straight blues, besides his monstrosity on tunes like "Giant
Steps".
>
> But don't get me wrong; Eric Johnson is definitely a scary player, from what
> I've heard he doesn't really have a very unique and identifyable sound or
> style. But again; my judgements are only based on checking out "Ah via
> musicom" so maybe I'm completely wrong????
Hmm, that's the first time I've ever heard *that* said about him. See him live,
see him live.
Clay in Austin
isaac
I think that has been a shortcoming of many guitarist of all styles over
the years.
A lack of mastering non-scalar interval motion. The guitar instructor
for the
Denver University jazz program told me I should work out all the
chord/scales in
each interval jumps. He said 6ths were particularly interesting yet
unused and
in demonstrating that interval technique over a chord/scale he proved
that he himself
had not used it much.
i.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <326D31...@colorado.edu> dave...@colorado.edu writes:
>I think that has been a shortcoming of many guitarist of all styles over
>the years.
>A lack of mastering non-scalar interval motion. The guitar instructor
>for the
>Denver University jazz program told me I should work out all the
>chord/scales in
>each interval jumps. He said 6ths were particularly interesting yet
>unused and
>in demonstrating that interval technique over a chord/scale he proved
>that he himself
>had not used it much.
Russell Malone comes to mind as a guy who has obviously worked
on picking his sixth intervals. He can throw those babies into
a line at very rapid speeds.