Round Midnight - recorded versions, Realbook notation, analysis
Jens W
working on Round Midnight currently. I haven't played the tune before, but I
love it already. Checked out Wes version on youtube, and I have also found a
vocal version with lyrics (always helps me a lot in learning a tune.) Sonny
Rollins does it beautifully.
Now my question is - the different charts I found differ strongly when it
comes to the chords and even the melody. I have tried to use realbook1 and
compared to Ralph Patt's vanilla changes on his site. I am already
struggling to see the connections... 8-)
Other realbooks have arranged versions (2 pages with a coda and breaks), in
which the melody looks pretty different even in the first few bars. When I
listen to recordings, the melody is never as written in one of these charts.
Is there any recommended version to use if I just want to learn the tune to
be able to play it at a jam session with others? what is the most
frequently used reference version/leadsheet/key for Round Midnight?
I will most likely come back with harmony questions to you once I start
analyzing... It is a beautiful tune, but functionally the chords do not make
a lot of sense to me yet (unless you just look at it as modulating all over
the place pretty much every bar).
I can already see that this tune will teach me a lot. :-)
Thanks all
Jens
hw
"Jens W" <m...@blahblah.invalid> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
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i like the changes from aebersold vol 56. just replace all C7+4 with Cm7b5
(and maybe Ebm with Gbj7 in bar three).
this one is good too:
JonD
Jim Hall says something - maybe in the liner notes to the "Live" album
- about this tune just being one that everyone plays differently, and
that you just have to have your ears open and hope that you come out
the other side ok. I think it helps to learn a few versions.
I tend to lean towards that Abersold version too, although it's not
totally always faithful Monk's version, if that's important to you.
Check out lots of them, compile a version you're happy with, and be
prepared to compromise it almost every time it's called on a gig
(unfortunately not often enough I think - perhaps due to the changes
issue).
Jon
campfire
>
> - Show quoted text -
I really like the Miles version on the classic album "Round
Midnight". The duet between Miles and Coltrane is beautiful! It has
the intro and coda, also.
Rick Stone
To reverse a common cliche "Don't believe anything you see, and only
half of what you hear!"
I would get hold of EVERY Monk recording you can and start there. Learn
the melody FIRST, after that the bass line, then start filling in the
middle. There's stuff going on that is NOT easily expressed in the fake
book/chord symbol way of viewing things.
AFTER you've learned Monk's version, THEN start studying everybody
elses. Just about everybody has a different take on this tune and
hardly anybody plays it the way Monk wrote it (I was told that Monk used
to bust Miles chops about it and that when he saw him backstage at some
festival he said "Are you still playing my tune wrong?"). Of course
jazz music is open to interpretation, and that's to be expected, but it
is a good idea to learn how it was originally written when possible
before embarking on changing it all around.
--
Rick Stone
website: www.rickstone.com
Some of My Other sites: www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
www.facebook.com/rickstonemusic www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
www.reverbnation.com/rickstone www.youtube.com/jazzand
www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand http://jazzguitarny.ning.com
Joe Finn
news:hi6rfl$d87$1...@news.sap-ag.de...
I recommend starting with the Monk recordings. If you can play the melody
along with him it would be a good start. Next I would listen to Miles'
version and maybe a version with lyrics; Mel Torme comes to mind. The motion
picture "Round Midnight" featured some amazing perspectives on this piece.
Soundtrack albums are available. They feature Herbie and Dexter among
others. ....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Joe Finn
news:hi7k0v$s3c$1...@news.datemas.de...
p.s. Check and see if there is a Ted Nugent version? 8-) ....joe
Joey Goldstein
I like the version in The Standards Real Book, from Sher Music.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
charles robinson
"Jens W" <m...@blahblah.invalid> wrote in message
news:hi6rfl$d87$1...@news.sap-ag.de...
I like Bud Powell's version which is now on YouTube.
Charlie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDXtVsY7lfM
Tim McNamara
"Jens W" <m...@blahblah.invalid> wrote:
> Now my question is - the different charts I found differ strongly
> when it comes to the chords and even the melody. I have tried to use
> realbook1 and compared to Ralph Patt's vanilla changes on his site. I
> am already struggling to see the connections... 8-)
The first two bars look superficially different, but aren't really all
that different.
The Real Book (5th ed) has:
| Ebm Cm7b5 | Fm7b5 Bb7alt |
or ii - vii - iii (with b5) - vi (dom)
The Real Book has a chord (Cmin7b5) which is just the vii of Db and acts
as a relative chord to the Ebmin (Eb to Cmin is a relative substitution;
Ebmin to Cmin7b5 is effectively also a relative substitution). So that
one's pretty easy and adds a nice little movement to the first bar.
Ralph (who's usually very accurate) has:
| Ebm | F7 Bb7 |
or ii - ii - iii (dom) - vii (dom)
In Patt's chart, the F7 and Bb7 chords are just "dominanted" subs of the
iii (Fmin)and viii (Bbmin) of Db; this is very common in jazz (e.g.,
Cmaj7 A7 Dmin7 G7 for a I-vi-ii-V progression instead of Cmaj7 Amin7
Dmin7 G7).
Bars 3-5 have the same changes in both the Real Book and Patt's. Bars
6-8 are different.
Real Book:
| Ebmin7 Ab7 | Cb7 | Bb7 |
Patt:
| Gb Cb | Cmin7b5 F7 | Bb7 |
The 1st chord in bar 6 is either Ebmin7 or Gb which is a relative
substitution so no problem there. But you got me with the Ab7 versus
Cb. In bar 7, Cmin7b5 has three notes in common with Cb7b9 and F7 has
two notes in common with Cb7 (three with Cb7b5) so the tonality is
related. They can be considered substitutions for each other.
I won't get into the B section, not having my Real Book handy and my
memory for tunes unfortunately being what it used to be. I think I like
the changes in the Real Book better for solo guitar.
Monk tunes are hard to nail down definitively, in part because Monk
would adopt permutations put in by other musicians in their recordings,
if he liked it. "Ruby, My Dear" is a great example of this. He managed
to fuse simplicity and complexity in a very unique way.
--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."
Tim McNamara
Joey Goldstein
Round Midnight is in Eb not Db.
Ebm is i not ii.
Bg
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sheesh, I alway looked at Midnite as being in Eb Minor, except for the
one measure at the end of sections.
Tim McNamara
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
There are 6 flats on my chart of "'Round Midnight" so perhaps you meant
it's in Ebmin rather than Eb. Ralph Patt also appears to think it's in
Db. Most of the harmony looks more like Db than Gb/Ebmin. I find it
more productive to think Db with the song beginning and ending on the ii
(using the Real Book arrangement) when I play it.
Wouldn't be the first time that the Real Book's key signature doesn't
actually match the song. "How Insensitive" isn't really in C, either.
I could be wrong, of course, as that wouldn't be the first time for
that, either. ;-)
Joey Goldstein
Eb minor and Eb major are both "in Eb".
Bg
> Eb minor and Eb major are both "in Eb".
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
True, But one's got way fore Flatties than i like :-)
Bg
Bg
That should be More Flatties :-(
Bg
Jens W
"Jens W" <m...@blahblah.invalid> wrote in message
news:hi6rfl$d87$1...@news.sap-ag.de...
> comes to the chords and even the melody. I have tried to use realbook1 and
> compared to Ralph Patt's vanilla changes on his site. I am already
> struggling to see the connections... 8-)
Thanks a lot for all the thoughtful replies y'all! The Sher Realbook is
indeed pretty good when playing along with Monk.
I will be back with harmony questions.
Thanks again
Jens
Derek
>Also.... this is IMHO the finest jazz song ever written.
I am with you Tim. Grant Green does one of my favorite versions, and
one of my favorite vocal versions comes from an unexpected source.
Fuzztone, Ammo
Wow, great link.
I've listened to the Miles/Trane version so many times I can taste it
in my sleep.
'Swonderful to hear some more contemporary players doing respect to
this, arguably the greatest jazz tune ever written.
This singer (I'm not revealing who: you must clink the link) has
classic jazz phrasing, great articulation,excellent range and command
of the melody (note: he starts the final verse up the octave but comes
down on the third line instead of taking it beyond his capabilities).
I imagine he is also playing bass on this - fumbles once on the solo,
but otherwise creditable.
The guitarist got great tone, modern, chorused, finger-style,
sensitive, not overly speedy, great chord melody technique, but solos
in a blues style. Over-simplification! Also flubs the opportunity to
end the bridge with a parallel melody, but all in all - no mistakes,
and verrry smoooth.
I like it!
AMMO
Fuzztone, Ammo
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >> Round Midnight is in Eb not Db.
> >> Ebm is i not ii.
>
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
Ha ha! Take THAT, you FLATS! Good one, Joey!
I think it's in Ebm in the beginning but resolves a la "tierce de
picardy" in the last bar of the head (the second time through and the
repeated head). No need to score it in 5 flats, use 3 and lots of
"accidentals".
that said, I think it is beneficial to think of the initial chord Ebm
as the ii.
AMMO
Paul Mitchell Brown
on an Ebm chord but it's the ii chord of Db major. All the theory in
the world won't be of any help until you can hear and feel that.
Besides, an analysis of 'Round Midnight' that treats the home key as
Db is actually a more difficult task. Why make your work harder than
it needs be?
Joey Goldstein
> On Jan 9, 8:59 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> Round Midnight is in Eb not Db.
>>>> Ebm is i not ii.
>> Eb minor and Eb major are both "in Eb".
>>
>> --
>> Joey Goldstein
>
> Ha ha! Take THAT, you FLATS! Good one, Joey!
> I think it's in Ebm in the beginning but resolves a la "tierce de
> picardy" in the last bar of the head (the second time through and the
> repeated head). No need to score it in 5 flats, use 3 and lots of
> "accidentals".
The key of Eb minor is written in 6 flats.
Both the key of Eb major and the key of Eb minor are the same key,
namely the key of Eb. I.e. The tonic is Eb.
Eb major is "in the major mode" and Eb minor is "in the minor mode".
Believe it or not, that's the way that people who know how to talk about
these things actually talk about them.
The fact that Eb major and Eb minor use 2 different key signatures is
another matter.
The key of Eb has various possible tonic chords: I, Imaj7, I7, I6, i,
im(maj7), im6, im7.
It has various possible chords built off of scale degree 2: iim, iim7,
iim7b5, bII, bIImaj7, bII6.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Obviously, it was clear that I meant Eb minor and not Eb major anyway
when I first said that "Ebm is i".
> that said, I think it is beneficial to think of the initial chord Ebm
> as the ii.
> AMMO
No. It makes no sense to think of Ebm as being ii. In no way, at any
point, is this tune in the key of Db.
In this tune Ebm is i, like I said.
But if you think that wrong thinking really helps your playing, feel
free to go ahead.
MQ
The first two bars are a simple turnaround ( I VI II V) in Eb minor
(from melodic minor , aeolian and harmonic minor).
The first chord Eb minor has no 7th or 6th so it can be all (Eb-6,
Eb-7, Eb-Maj7).
The 3rd bar (Eb-7 Ab7) has to be heard as I to IV (not II V) - Eb
Aeolian to Ab Lydian b7.
In the 4th bar the tune goes to Gb (Major):
Cb-7(B-7) to Fb7(E7) as a IV-7 to bVII7 cadence resolving to the III
(substitute for I (GbM))
Bb-7 Eb7 / Abm7 Db7 / Eb-7..... is also a simple turnaround in Gb (III
VI II V I)
resolving to Ebminor as a substitute for Gb Major.
In the last bar of the first ending (Bb7) the tune returns to Eb
(minor).
IMHO the a section is in Eb and Gb :)
_Michael.
Fuzztone, Ammo
Okay, okay, Joey. I can live with Ebm being the i, fine! It's all
about playing together and it helps to think together too.
I am enjoying this thread because at last it's becoming clear there's
many interpretations of the chords to Round Midnight.
The version I first learned from is in fact from a book that you said
you used to flog in Toronto in the 70s, for players attending Ted
Moses' Mother Necessity Jazz Workshop. It is dense with chord changes
which differ from what's been mentioned so far and contains a note
above the changes to the solo section that says:
"The changes on the head are Monk's. Below are "West Coast" changes".
It's notated with 3 flats and as I said, ends on an Eb Major. The head
begins:
| Ebm Bb7/D Ebm/Db / | Cm7(b5) / Abm7 Db7 |
Some pretty cool changes ensue. My fave chords are in the last 2 bars
of the head (2nd and last times):
| Cm7(b5) F7/B Fm7(b5)/Bb Bb7 | EbMaj ||
And a Coda that's a little suspect, but I fear that's TMI (Too Much
Information)!
AMMO
Fuzztone, Ammo
That's an intriguing modulation but I think it's too brief to be
helpful (in thinking about the key and the changes), Michael. I prefer
to think of it (Bm7 to E7 in bar 4) as "planing" like Jerry Coker
described in his book on pentatonics.
But it's possibly better understood as an elaboration of bVIm (Cbm) to
Vm7 (Bbm) followeed by IVm7 (Abm7) in the next bar.
AMMO
Joey Goldstein
The only fake book I've ever 'flogged' was the original Real Book.
I brought a copy home to Toronto with me in the late 70s and made about
20 photocopies of it that I sold to student/friends in the then newly
formed Humber College jazz program.
> It is dense with chord changes
> which differ from what's been mentioned so far and contains a note
> above the changes to the solo section that says:
> "The changes on the head are Monk's. Below are "West Coast" changes".
> It's notated with 3 flats and as I said, ends on an Eb Major. The head
> begins:
>
> | Ebm Bb7/D Ebm/Db / | Cm7(b5) / Abm7 Db7 |
>
> Some pretty cool changes ensue. My fave chords are in the last 2 bars
> of the head (2nd and last times):
>
> | Cm7(b5) F7/B Fm7(b5)/Bb Bb7 | EbMaj ||
>
> And a Coda that's a little suspect, but I fear that's TMI (Too Much
> Information)!
> AMMO
Joey Goldstein
This is the Berklee-style harmonic analysis of the A section of this tune:
eb:
Im |IV7b9 \IVm7_bVII7/|
Ebm Ebm/D Ebm/Db / |Cdim7 / Abm7 Db7 |
\IIm7b5_V7/V Sub\IIm7_V7/ \IIm7_V7/IV|
Cm7b5 / F7 / | Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7 |
\IVm7___bVII7/ bIII IV7
Abm7 / Db7 / |Gb G7 Ab7 / |
1...........
\IIm7b5__V7/V \IIm7b5__V7/
Cm7b5 / F7 / |Fm7b5 / Bb7 / ||Repeat
2.......
\IIm7b5_V7/V \IIm7b5_V7/ I
Cm7b5 F7 Fm7b5 Bb7 |Eb(no3rd)(add9) / / / ||
Notes:
� I've used Cdim7 in bar 2 and I'm seeing it as an inversion of Ab7b9.
The more common Cm7b5 here would also be seen as an inversion of Ab7.
� G7 is just a chromatic passing chord with no functional designation.
� There are no modulations in this tune. It is in Eb minor throughout
with brief instances of borrowed chords from closely related key centres.
Rick Stone
> | Ebm Bb7/D Ebm/Db / | Cm7(b5) / Abm7 Db7 |
>
> Some pretty cool changes ensue. My fave chords are in the last 2 bars
> of the head (2nd and last times):
>
> | Cm7(b5) F7/B Fm7(b5)/Bb Bb7 | EbMaj ||
>
> And a Coda that's a little suspect, but I fear that's TMI (Too Much
> Information)!
> AMMO
Those changes at the beginning are right (that's what monk played), but
I don't think they play the Bb7 before the EbMaj7. On the lyrics "When
old Midnight Comes A-Round" the last three syllables are a repeated Eb
note (the chord there is an Am/Bb to an EbMaj7 with the root in the
melody, so you get that slightly dissonant buzz of the Major7 under it.)
The Coda changes are played in latin rhythm:
Cm7b5 | F13b9 | Cm7b5 | F13b9 |
Cm7b5 | F13b9 | Cm7b5 | F13b9 |
F#m7b5 | B7b9b5 | F#m7b5 | B7b9b5 |
E9sus4 | E13 | Fm7b5 | Bb13b9#11 |
and then one beat each
Bb7 Eb7 Ab7 Db7 F#7 B7 E7 D/E
Jens W
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:e39ac$4b4e4932$adceefa4$26...@PRIMUS.CA...
>
> Notes:
> � I've used Cdim7 in bar 2 and I'm seeing it as an inversion of Ab7b9. The
> more common Cm7b5 here would also be seen as an inversion of Ab7.
> � G7 is just a chromatic passing chord with no functional designation.
> � There are no modulations in this tune. It is in Eb minor throughout with
> brief instances of borrowed chords from closely related key centres.
hey guys, as always very helpful. I am muddling my way through at this
point, but this is very helpful.
Thanks!
Jens