Quartal harmony theory and use ?
Dirk
they can be made on a scale by stacking
4ths or (tritones) from the same scale.
How and where can i use it ?
what are the chordnames?
how does one solo over it?
Can the substitute normal chords?
I'd like to hear from all of you
thx in advance
Dirk
Jmjcw
they can be made on a scale by stacking
4ths or (tritones) from the same scale. >>
Quartal chords are stacks of 4ths - tritones are entirely different.
<< How and where can i use it ?
what are the chordnames? >>
There are so many possible implications for these chords that it is difficult
to write them all here. I'll give you some examples:
On the 7th fret, stack (starting from the A string) E, A, D, and G. The most
obvious use of this chord is as an Em11, but there are many other uses. It's a
C6, G6/9, A7sus4, Bbma7#11, Dsus4(add 9), F#(b9#9b13), C#(b9#9b5).
A very common use for these chords is "planing", moving the same voicing up and
down the neck, usually in pattern of some kind, usually over a modal tune to
break up the monotony of one chord for 8 or 16 bars.
Here's a ii V I - the same chord shape as earlier, but starting from D (D, G,
C, F) - this is the ii, Dm11. Move the chord up a min 3rd (F, Bb, Eb, Ab).
This is the V, G7b9#9b13. Move it down a half step (E, A, D, G). Now it's the
I, C6/9.
<< how does one solo over it? >>
same as other chords, given the same harmonic implications. It's pretty useful
to use these chords as arpeggios, and play them over "normal" chords using some
of the substitutions suggested above.
I hope this is helpful, and not too long winded!
Christopher Woitach
Thomas Stubbs
Nazodesu
<tgst...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> quartal harmony? so what!
Witty!
--
The storm starts when the drops start dropping. When the drops stop dropping
the storm starts stopping.
MtthwMtchll
chords with P4ths, tritones, and M3rds. All these intervals are useful in
getting the quartal sound (even though its not always P4ths)
Matt Mitchell
email: mattmitc...@hotmail.com
website: www.mp3.com/mattmitchell
Prys Lewis
Amd I suppose you still think the sun and the stars rotate around the
earth - that's what
Prys
"Thomas Stubbs" <tgst...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3AA78E4E...@earthlink.net...
> quartal harmony? so what!
>
>
>
Nazodesu
<Lewi...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > quartal harmony? so what!
> >
> Amd I suppose you still think the sun and the stars rotate around the
> earth - that's what
What Miles Davis album is that on?
Tom Lippincott
>they can be made on a scale by stacking
>4ths or (tritones) from the same scale. >>
>
>Quartal chords are stacks of 4ths - tritones are entirely different.
actually a chord with a tritone could still be considered quartal if you call
the interval an augmented fourth.
The one thing I'd add to what others have said here is that quartal voicings
lend themselves well to the modal style (like So What, as someone pointed out);
static harmonies, pentatonic based lines, and "planing" or "side slipping"
where you move in and out of the tonality with chord voicings or a melodic
line.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Mark Garvin
>><< I found some quartal chords and i know
>>they can be made on a scale by stacking
>>4ths or (tritones) from the same scale. >>
>>
>>Quartal chords are stacks of 4ths - tritones are entirely different.
>actually a chord with a tritone could still be considered quartal if you call
>the interval an augmented fourth.
Yep. Vincent Persichetti's book "Twentieth Century Harmony"
has a chapter on quartal harmony. (That's one of my favorite
theory books. Not specifically jazz oriented, but still
relevant).
The aug4 (tritone) is an accepted interval in quartal harmony.
Persichetti comments on three types of quartal triads:
Perf-Perf, Aug4-Perf, Perf-Aug4. Obviously aug4-aug4 is not
a triad.
MG
Josh Dougherty
Jmjcw <jm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010308064914...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
> << I found some quartal chords and i know
> they can be made on a scale by stacking
> 4ths or (tritones) from the same scale. >>
>
> Quartal chords are stacks of 4ths - tritones are entirely different.
>
If you "quartalize" chords for D dorian, you'll get
DGCF
EADG
FBEA
and there's that tritone. F to B. One spot in every major scale and mode
will have an augmented 4th, (aka tritone)
Wait till you try to harmonize a melodic minor scale or any of its' modes
into quartal chords. You'll have one augmented 4th (tritone) and one
diminished 4th, which'll look exactly like a 3rd. That'll really mess with
your head.
Josh
Jmjcw
tritones. My thinking (or lack of it) on my statement re: "tritones and quartal
chords are different" was based on the approach of using stacks of fourths that
are not necessarily based on scale harmonization, rather a method of adding
color to the harmonic environment.
Sorry for the mis-statement.
Christopher
Nazodesu
<jbd...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jmjcw <jm...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010308064914...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
> > << I found some quartal chords and i know
> > they can be made on a scale by stacking
> > 4ths or (tritones) from the same scale. >>
> >
> > Quartal chords are stacks of 4ths - tritones are entirely different.
> >
> No, the tritone's are often 4ths in a scale:
>
> If you "quartalize" chords for D dorian, you'll get
>
> DGCF
> EADG
> FBEA
I hate to quibble, since your comment is quite valid (and actually is
the thing I like most about quartal harmonization). But the original
question had to do with quartal chords, not parallel scale-bound
quartal harmony. Quartal chords are, as said above, stacks of 4ths, not
stacks of 4ths and tritones, though a relationship that resembles a
tritone can be produced in the process.
The analysis of harmony by thinking in terms of tritone relationships
versus quartal relationships is wholly different, despite the fact that
under limited circumstances they have this minor overlap.
It's kind of like saying that a #9 and a minor third are the same
thing. They are the same NOTE but not the same thing.
Mark Garvin
>Quartal chords are, as said above, stacks of 4ths, not
>stacks of 4ths and tritones, though a relationship that resembles a
>tritone can be produced in the process.
>...
>It's kind of like saying that a #9 and a minor third are the same
>thing. They are the same NOTE but not the same thing.
OK, I'm curious. The distinction between #9 and min3 is obvious; they
imply different scale steps. But 'tritone' does not indictate a scale
step, and is (as far as I know) 'neutral' in that respect. When is an
aug4 not a tritone?
MG
Josh Dougherty
Mark Garvin <mga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:98du9h$6qk$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Exactly what I was thinking here.
A tritone is a 4th in many cases, and it can be a 5th in other cases.
IMO, stacking P4-P4-Tri-P4-P4, can still be considered stacked 4ths.
and stacking - P5-P5-Tri-P5, can still be considered stacked 5ths.
As you say, I think tri-tones are kind of neutral in this respect. If a
tonality requires that one of it's 4ths is augmented, it will automaticly
also be a tritone.
If a tonality requires that one of it's 5ths is flatted, it will be a
tritone at the same time. In a dim triad, the tritone is still considered a
5th. In a #11 chord, the tritone is still considered a 4th (11th). I've
never considered the term "quartal" to imply that it must be only perfect
4ths.
Josh
Nazodesu
<mga...@panix.com> wrote:
There is lots of things to be said about tritone's and how they
resolve, where you situate them to do what task, and all the rest.
You've probably seen a few chapters in a few books on the topic, no?
The placement of a tritone in a stock of 4ths is probably not gonna be
about traditional voice-leading and resolution anyway. Tritone
placement, usage and resolution is one subject. Quartal harmony is
another.
Josh Dougherty
Nazodesu <22...@home.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:100320010823478418%22...@home.com.nospam...
> It's kind of like saying that a #9 and a minor third are the same
> thing. They are the same NOTE but not the same thing.
>
like E7#9 is actually a b10. Yet, people still effectively work with the #9
designation.
Josh
Joey Goldstein
Right, but in jazz usages of quartal harmony voicings that contain
augmented 4ths are still considered to be available in the quartal
texture. This may not be as true in more orchestral compositional
practices but it is true in jazz players like McCoy Tyner who will often
have a quartal structure with a tritone present in his left hand voicings.
The case for diminished 4ths in quartal voicings is a little less
strong. They do sound much more like major 3rds and will therefore
impart a much stronger pull towards a tertian texture than aug 4ths and
therefore sound out of place in quartal harmonic systems.
In jazz we routinely mix up quartal harmony with a song form that is
tertian and tonal in nature. Melody notes in the right hand will often
form 3rds with the quartal voicing in the left hand. This is where all
the fun happens in mixing it up.
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
Mark Garvin
>In article <98du9h$6qk$1...@panix2.panix.com>, Mark Garvin
>> In <100320010823478418%22...@home.com.nospam> Nazodesu
>>
>> >Quartal chords are, as said above, stacks of 4ths, not stacks of
>> >4ths and tritones, though a relationship that resembles a tritone
>> >can be produced in the process. ... It's kind of like saying that a
>> >#9 and a minor third are the same thing. They are the same NOTE but
>> >not the same thing.
>>
>> OK, I'm curious. The distinction between #9 and min3 is obvious;
>> they imply different scale steps. But 'tritone' does not indictate a
>> scale step, and is (as far as I know) 'neutral' in that respect.
>> When is an aug4 not a tritone?
>There is lots of things to be said about tritone's and how they
>resolve, where you situate them to do what task, and all the rest.
>You've probably seen a few chapters in a few books on the topic, no?
>
>The placement of a tritone in a stock of 4ths is probably not gonna be
>about traditional voice-leading and resolution anyway. Tritone
>placement, usage and resolution is one subject. Quartal harmony is
>another.
I've already posted a reference to one of the classic theory texts
(Persichetti) which does refer to aug 4ths in quartal harmony. My
question was not about whether an aug 4th is a legitimate interval
in quartal harmony; it is accepted and used.
I was more curious about why you made such a sharp distinction
between tritones and aug 4ths. I've never known the term 'tritone'
to directly imply harmonic function: it is simply a certain number
of semitones (6), or a certain frequency ratio (1.414). IOW, a
min3 to maj6 is a tritone, a root to aug4 is a tritone, a flat 5,
etc etc. Same interval, different harmonic implication.
MG
Thomas F Brown
Mark Garvin <mga...@panix.com> wrote:
>>It's kind of like saying that a #9 and a minor third are the same
>>thing. They are the same NOTE but not the same thing.
>
Superman vs. Mighty Mouse--who do you like in that fight?
Josh Dougherty
Thomas F Brown <tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:98f47s$114sk$1...@news.jhu.edu...
Well, I think probably Superman, but if Mighty Mouse could elicit the help
of Speedy Gonzales, Sup doesn't stand a chance.
Josh
Ugly
Joey Goldstein
quartal harmonies in a passage the voicings with tritones may be out of
place but in the jazz settings in which these types of chords are used
the voicings with tritones are a big part of the texture.
There is, of course, a system of harmony that uses constant structures
continually throughout a passage. An essentially tonal melody might be
harmonized above a stack of perfect 4ths even if all the notes of the
chords are way outside of the key. There is a chart for Footprints in
the NRB that has the melody harmonized in p4ths all the way through.
This puts some E naturals very strongly emphasized on Cm7, when the
melody is A, but it all works out in the end.
Ugly wrote:
>
> joey, I can't even find an "orchestral" distinction.
--