tube, socket or other?
Dan
Here's hoping our readers in the Hurrican areas are safe, sound and in touch
with their families..
Owning a recently retubed Tremoverb, I was surprised that one of my "new"
preamp tubes was acting up.
Given that I have next to zero knowledge aoubt amp inners, I did a couple of
thing to id the culprit...
Yep pencil and eraser... using the eraser to tap the tubes for any unusual
sounds, I found a preamp tube in the clean channel was boinkie yet the
others thudded nicely.. I removed the tube replaced it and the same bangin'
sound occured with the same slot! The tube I remove performed well in a
different amp.
I noticed while tapping, that the thud occurrred when I tapped either tube
on the base while either tube was in the Tverb..
Wondering if it could still be the tube, or the ceramic tube receptical?
Or could it be something else..
That's about all I can say at this time.. Would you care to speculate...
and what could one expect to pa for such a repair..
Thanks,
Danny
Mike Schway
"Dan" <dem...@comcast.net> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Owning a recently retubed Tremoverb, I was surprised that one of my "new"
> preamp tubes was acting up.
>
> Given that I have next to zero knowledge aoubt amp inners, I did a couple of
> thing to id the culprit...
>
> Yep pencil and eraser... using the eraser to tap the tubes for any unusual
> sounds, I found a preamp tube in the clean channel was boinkie yet the
> others thudded nicely.. I removed the tube replaced it and the same bangin'
> sound occured with the same slot! The tube I remove performed well in a
> different amp.
>
> I noticed while tapping, that the thud occurrred when I tapped either tube
> on the base while either tube was in the Tverb..
>
> Wondering if it could still be the tube, or the ceramic tube receptical?
> Or could it be something else..
>
Quick answer: They do that.
More complete answer:
The Tremoverb has an insane amount of gain. Any tube will be a little
microphonic there. Betcha the "boinky" tube was the first one in the
string. Put the tube in another amp with lower gain, and it's not a
problem. Most tubes will give you a ringy sound. It's only a bad
problem if you hear feedback squeals without banging on the tube.
If you really want to eliminate these microphonics, you need a VERY
quiet, low gain tube. Go through a huge stack of tubes and maybe you'll
find one which is quiet.
If you don't want to spend all day sorting tubes, I'm a great fan of the
Electroharmonix 12AY7/6072. Warm and quiet. But beware that you'll
have less crunch in your lead channel. Usually that's not a problem;
there's plenty of gain to spare...just crank up the 1st stage gain
control.
Just a thought.
--Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Schway | [Picture your favorite quote here]
msc...@nas.com |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Pt
Try a new tube.
Pt
Lord Valve
Dan wrote:
> Good Evening,
>
> Here's hoping our readers in the Hurrican areas are safe, sound and in touch
> with their families..
>
> Owning a recently retubed Tremoverb, I was surprised that one of my "new"
> preamp tubes was acting up.
Define "acting up."
> Given that I have next to zero knowledge aoubt amp inners, I did a couple of
> thing to id the culprit...
>
> Yep pencil and eraser... using the eraser to tap the tubes for any unusual
> sounds, I found a preamp tube in the clean channel was boinkie yet the
> others thudded nicely.. I removed the tube replaced it and the same bangin'
> sound occured with the same slot! The tube I remove performed well in a
> different amp.
What a surprise.
> I noticed while tapping, that the thud occurrred when I tapped either tube
> on the base while either tube was in the Tverb..
Say - can you provide us with a list of all the tunes you do where you accompany
your guitar playing with
tube-generated eraser-thump noises? Just curious.
> Wondering if it could still be the tube, or the ceramic tube receptical?
> Or could it be something else..
>
> That's about all I can say at this time.. Would you care to speculate...
> and what could one expect to pa for such a repair..
It ain't broke. Don't fix it.
Here's a post I did in response to a question similar to yours.
It's from July 5, 2002.
__________________________________________________
Lord Valve Speaketh:
Microphony is caused by instability or play in the internal
structures of the tube. Since the various elements inside
a tube have various voltages applied to them, and since
(like any two pieces of metal which are in close proximity)
there are various inter-element capacitances involved, when
mechanical excitation is applied to the elements these
capacitances change, causing a signal to be developed
on the tube's plate when, as a consequence of the changing
capacitances, the voltages change. The more play there
is in the internal structure, the more pronounced this effect
will be. It is exaggerated in smaller tubes by the fact that
the elements are in closer proximity and therefore smaller
motions will cause larger signals to be developed. (This is
why it's more common to find microphonic preamp tubes
than microphonic power tubes.) HOWEVER - and there is
*always* a however - some of the best-sounding preamp
tubes out there are microphonic. Microphony actually
plays a positive role (when not excessive) in a preamp tube's
characteristic sonic signature, and many of the most revered
ones (Telefunken, Mullard, Ei, etc.) are quite microphonic.
Microphony, in this case, provides a form of *positive* feedback
which is often beneficial to the overall tone of the amplifier.
If you are rejecting tubes because they say "pow" or "clink"
or "boing" or "wham" when you smack them with something,
you are barking up the wrong tree. You haven't located a
bad tube when you do this, all you've done is discover that
a tube will make a weird noise when you do something weird
to it. (Do you whack your tubes while you're playing the
guitar?) A lot of perfectly good tubes have been tossed out
by people who didn't know any better. As long as a tube
doesn't induce any undesirable artifacts into the signal,
like ringing, howling, rattling, etc., it's not too microphonic
to use - no matter how loud it hollers when you spank it.
Lord Valve
Tone Chaperone
VISIT MY WEBSITE: http://www.nebsnow.com/LordValve
I specialize in top quality HAND SELECTED NOS and
current-production vacuum tubes for guitar and
bass amps. Good prices, fast service.
QSC amps, RNC compressors, lots of other good stuff!
Partial Client List: * Derek Trucks/Allman Brothers Band *
* Meatloaf * Catherine Wheel * Yo La Tengo * Let's Go Bowling *
* Fleetwood Mac * Tyrin Benoit * Eugene Fodor * Dale Bruning *
* Komet Amplification * Dr. Z * Maven Peal * Blockhead Amps *
* Jim Kelley * Balls Amplification * Roccaforte Amplifiers *
* Gerhart Amplification * Aiken Amplification * The Right Half of AGA *
* Lots More *
NBS Electronics, 230 South Broadway, Denver, CO 80209-1510
Phone orders/tech support after 1:30 PM Denver time at 303-778-1156
- Our 23rd Year -
VISA - MASTERCARD - PAYPAL
"Great fleas have little fleas
Upon their backs to bite 'em
And little fleas have lesser fleas,
And so ad infinitum"
-DeMorgan, 1915-
"Those little fleas who speak of sleaze
And rave of rightwing crazies
Don't bother me; they're small, you see,
And look like Elvis Paisley."
-Lord Valve, 2001-
GregD/OASYSCO
news:Eot2d.206556$Fg5.98357@attbi_s53:
> Good Evening,
>
> Here's hoping our readers in the Hurrican areas are safe, sound and in
> touch with their families..
>
> Owning a recently retubed Tremoverb, I was surprised that one of my
> "new" preamp tubes was acting up.
>
> Given that I have next to zero knowledge aoubt amp inners, I did a
> couple of thing to id the culprit...
>
> Yep pencil and eraser... using the eraser to tap the tubes for any
> unusual sounds, I found a preamp tube in the clean channel was boinkie
> yet the others thudded nicely.. I removed the tube replaced it and the
> same bangin' sound occured with the same slot! The tube I remove
> performed well in a different amp.
Yes, microphonic tubes can work in different areas of the same amp as
microphonics don't make a dif there (can't remember exactly where, but
not the preamp and not the tube reverb).
Greg
Mr.mvmDIS'sU
an obese amp tech in Denver CO. shits his pants attempting to come on
like Willy's version of a "a man".
Willy had an alcoholic father that both psychologically and physically
beat him.
That's why he's an obese teatotaler
today and twisted in terms of social skills.
It's that simple.
Regards,
mvm
Pt
wrote:
>This guy Dan writes an AMP post and Willy Whitakre aka "Lord Valve"
>an obese amp tech in Denver CO. shits his pants attempting to come on
>like Willy's version of a "a man".
>
>Willy had an alcoholic father that both psychologically and physically
>beat him.
>
>That's why he's an obese teatotaler
>today and twisted in terms of social skills.
>
>It's that simple.
>
>Regards,
>
>mvm
>
>
>
>Lord Valve wrote:
>
But he really kicks ass on the B-3.
Pt
Lord Valve
(snip the usual obsessive horse-shit)
Hey, sunshine - that $5K is waiting for you.
I'll hop right on the plane and hand it to you on a
silver platter. Hell, you can keep the platter, too.
All you need to do is substantiate your claim that
I plagiarized the Osama Curse.
Until you do, I keep the $5K, and you own the
title of AGA's champion liar.
C'mon, juiceboy - you said your piece. It's an
easy $5K. Step right up and show us all you're
not the sniveling liar we know you to be.
Lord Valve
Expert
Dan
I appreciate it when folks step up to help each other..
If I can beg your indugance just a bit further to ascertain if the Tremoverb
head should still find its way to a tech? And Oh, if Ican save the bucks I
appreciate that as well as your time and help! =)
I get it about small tubes not being very quite due to additional design and
production situations. I also now understand the issue with its position
in a high gain amp.
Yet, when I initially opened the amp and upon a close "visual" inspection,
all the tubes were somewhat dusty.. a little finger marked on the outside
glass and the silver tops exhibited some age, save this particular tube.. it
was very clean! I am thinking the tube was recently changed.
I gave it the bonk test and yep it bonked.. So I put a new Mesa AX7 and
interestingly enough, it too bonked.. and the bonk sounded exactly like the
tube in the socket that I believe is also new... I then took a new EH with
the same result and a Fender, both new, and got the same sonic result.
Here's my question. If the each of these tubes, whose design makes them a
little different from each other but fall within the specs for AX7 react the
same exact way, sonically, then what is the possibility that the only
constant is the socket?
Or in laymans's terms,,,,,, da bonk is xactly da same no matter what I putt
in da socket...
Thanks again,
Danny
Lord Valve
Dan wrote:
Did you read what I posted?
"If you are rejecting tubes because they say "pow" or "clink"
or "boing" or "wham" when you smack them with something,
you are barking up the wrong tree. You haven't located a
bad tube when you do this, all you've done is discover that
a tube will make a weird noise when you do something weird
to it. (Do you whack your tubes while you're playing the
guitar?)"
It's not the tube or the socket that's at fault here. There
are only two things in play: the gain of the circuit, which
is excessive enough to border on instability, thus
rendering *any* tube which is installed microphonic,
and the obsession of the owner with beating on an
otherwise innocent tube which was doing the best it
could given Mesa's penchant for "gain."
Once again: "...all you've done is discover that a tube
will make a weird noise when you do something weird
to it."
Unless you actually whack your tubes as a normal part
of your performances (and I'll admit I've seen stranger
stuff than that - Wendy O. Williams comes to mind...)
I don't understand what the problem is. Did you expect
your tubes *not* to do weird shit when you pound on
them? Does the amp work OK when you're not
flailing away at its innards? Is there actually a *problem*
you're trying to cure - something that doesn't work the
way it should? Elucidate.
Lord Valve
Expert
howard aubrey
"Lord Valve" <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:414BC9BD...@ix.netcom.com...
> Marc Mulah fatwahed:
> (snip the usual obsessive horse-shit)
>
> Hey, sunshine - that $5K is waiting for you.
>
> I'll hop right on the plane and hand it to you on a
> silver platter. Hell, you can keep the platter, too.
>
> All you need to do is substantiate your claim that
> I plagiarized the Osama Curse.
Maybe not plagiarized, but certainly not your own...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=curse+generator
>
> Until you do, I keep the $5K, and you own the
> title of AGA's champion liar.
No, that would be you and your claim of service
during Vietnam.
>
> C'mon, juiceboy - you said your piece. It's an
> easy $5K. Step right up and show us all you're
> not the sniveling liar we know you to be.
As soon as you provide the papers to prove you served during
Vietnam as you have numerously claimed. You *were* first,
after all : )
>
Lord Valve
Drain on Society
cheers....
HJA
Lord Valve
howard aubrey wrote:
> "Lord Valve" <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:414BC9BD...@ix.netcom.com...
> > Marc Mulah fatwahed:
> > (snip the usual obsessive horse-shit)
> >
> > Hey, sunshine - that $5K is waiting for you.
> >
> > I'll hop right on the plane and hand it to you on a
> > silver platter. Hell, you can keep the platter, too.
> >
> > All you need to do is substantiate your claim that
> > I plagiarized the Osama Curse.
>
> Maybe not plagiarized, but certainly not your own...
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=curse+generator
Bullshit.
I didn't use anything on any of those links. I *wrote* it.
You're welcome to dissect it, plug it into any of those
"curse generators," and see if the output is the same.
YOU are eligible for the $5K too, asshole. You have
as much chance of collecting as Mulay does, which
is ZERO.
> >
> > Until you do, I keep the $5K, and you own the
> > title of AGA's champion liar.
>
> No, that would be you and your claim of service
> during Vietnam.
>
> >
> > C'mon, juiceboy - you said your piece. It's an
> > easy $5K. Step right up and show us all you're
> > not the sniveling liar we know you to be.
>
> As soon as you provide the papers to prove you served during
> Vietnam as you have numerously claimed. You *were* first,
> after all : )
Anyone who wants to show up in person at my shop and fork over
his driver's licence or other personal ID is welcome to see all
the docs I've got. Personally, I don't give a fuck whether you or
any other AGA loser believes it or not.
Let me know when you're coming, Howie. At least, pin it down
to a specific decade.
Lord Valve
Expert
Dave Curtis
IIRC, your first post mentioned a ceramic socket,
which tends to exacerbate the inherent
microphonics of the 12AX7.
If it's a problem while you're *playing*, you
could try 2 or 3 heat-resistant o-rings around the
tube to subdue some microphonics. Another more
involved method is to shock-mount the socket with
rubber grommets. If it's not ringing while you're
jammin' don't worry about it.
And what LV sez...
-Dave
lbrt...@aol.com
> Microphony actually
> plays a positive role (when not excessive) in a preamp tube's
> characteristic sonic signature,
The first time I've ever seen anyone say so in public. Doubly
creditable that you'd be sure of this without being a guitarist, since
many work on 'em all their lives & aren't conscious of it. I'd
stretch your comment to "an AMP'S characteristic sonic signature."
The microphonics of tubes and to some degree even other components
(much moreso when suspended in PTP) give individual amps their
distinctive "ring" - a nearly 'verb-like quality on highs (but
different from what spring 'verb does) most tonally distinguishable in
relatively clean playing at high gain. It is subtle & often the
"unexplainable" difference in highs btw "great tone" and "magic."
These microphonics are controllable by playing technique, though
trying to analyze how is beyond description. Suffice to say that they
bring out certain left-hand techniques (and not the reverse) that can
make a note "sail off into space", and add a richer ring to rhythm
playing, among other things.
It took me about 25 yrs to realize this in an undeniable way even
though it had been part of my own playing for years, and is another
reason why I choose to build PTP & often eschew the "famous"
benignly-microphonic tubes (no slight intended to that route); it is
just another way I'm able to bring out much the same "controlled
microphonic results" (for lack of a better term) while using most
anything of high quality that fits into the sockets. IOW, just
another road to Rome. In my case, for example I can make good use of
still-economical but robust, long-lived NOS JAN tubes or other
low-noise bottles which are less rare/costly & considered tonally
unremarkable in most board amps, without sacrificing the magic.
It also helps explain why famous microphonic tubes add little tonally
in what I build, and can sometimes cross the line into excessive
microphonics, but may often significantly improve the board-based
amps. Certain components supported by socket pins add to the
resonance of normally less-microphonic tubes attached to them.
Not intended to be a rave for my PTP thing, but as an agreement &
comparison of ways of achieving a much-neglected aspect of tube amp
tone.
IMO&E - and again not negatively-intended - this aspect of tone is
more relevant & striking in strong-technique no-FX playing, than for
those playing with high distortion and/or pedals/FX, even though it
doesn't disappear with them. It gives an emotional quality that
defies description and in the case of using typical onboard spring
'verb, affects the 'verb's part of the tone too. It's the one thing
that sand will never do.
IMHO no kind of preamp tubes - nor PTP amp with great "ring" - will
make any inferior player sound better; they may sound worse, with more
sloppiness to ring.
Someone could discuss all day - and inconclusively - whether my way
with it's "expense" of careful layout constraints, "assembly art"
(that often looks like a beaver den compared to a board) & also
sometimes "tuning" these microphonics at the end of construction by
altering individual related components' dress or mass, is better/worse
than your way of careful tube procurement, selection and that "art" &
expense. I'd say your way is more practical & more universally useful
except for custom builders, & beyond that it only matters that they
both deliver the goods, without mystery as to why. The only flaw I
could point to would be the periodic higher expense of more-scarce
preamp tubes; but good preamp tubes last a long time & don't amount to
much when time-costed out.
If it ain't got that ring, it ain't got the thing...
Lord Valve
lbrt...@aol.com wrote:
> Lord Valve <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<414A8F77...@ix.netcom.com>...
>
> > Microphony actually
> > plays a positive role (when not excessive) in a preamp tube's
> > characteristic sonic signature,
>
> The first time I've ever seen anyone say so in public. Doubly
> creditable that you'd be sure of this without being a guitarist, since
> many work on 'em all their lives & aren't conscious of it. I'd
> stretch your comment to "an AMP'S characteristic sonic signature."
> The microphonics of tubes and to some degree even other components
> (much moreso when suspended in PTP) give individual amps their
> distinctive "ring" - a nearly 'verb-like quality on highs (but
> different from what spring 'verb does) most tonally distinguishable in
> relatively clean playing at high gain. It is subtle & often the
> "unexplainable" difference in highs btw "great tone" and "magic."
>
> These microphonics are controllable by playing technique, though
> trying to analyze how is beyond description. Suffice to say that they
> bring out certain left-hand techniques (and not the reverse) that can
> make a note "sail off into space", and add a richer ring to rhythm
> playing, among other things.
You're describing Derek Trucks.
He uses a guitar cord and an amplifier. You have to see him
live to understand what's going on - he is *definitely* playing
the AMP as well as the guitar.
DT probably tried nearly a hundred amps with the Allmans before I built the Super Sixes for him.
I could tell from
what he was doing in his own band that what he really
needed was a more powerful amp with plenty of 10"
speakers. The Fender "mojo" of his BFSR needed to
be increased to Allman stage levels, and not much else.
Interesting that, even with the extra (nearly) 80 watts, he
also chose to Y the channels. (I put 'em in-phase.)
> IMHO no kind of preamp tubes - nor PTP amp with great "ring" - will
> make any inferior player sound better; they may sound worse, with more
> sloppiness to ring.
>
> Someone could discuss all day - and inconclusively - whether my way
> with it's "expense" of careful layout constraints, "assembly art"
> (that often looks like a beaver den compared to a board) & also
> sometimes "tuning" these microphonics at the end of construction by
> altering individual related components' dress or mass, is better/worse
> than your way of careful tube procurement, selection and that "art" &
> expense. I'd say your way is more practical & more universally useful
> except for custom builders, & beyond that it only matters that they
> both deliver the goods, without mystery as to why. The only flaw I
> could point to would be the periodic higher expense of more-scarce
> preamp tubes; but good preamp tubes last a long time & don't amount to
> much when time-costed out.
>
> If it ain't got that ring, it ain't got the thing...
There's a disc cap in the AB763 reverb circuit that will
fool you into thinking the reverb recovery tube is
excessively microphonic. It's much more sensitive in
some amps than in others. If it's enough to be objectionable,
a dab of silcone caulk (to change the mass) usually does
the trick. If you replace it with something quiet, though -
like a poly cap - some of the mojo goes away.
Insane, ain't it? ;-)
Lord Valve
Tweakist
Miles O'Neal
>... I'd stretch your comment to
> "an AMP'S characteristic sonic signature." The microphonics of tubes and
> to some degree even other components (much moreso when suspended in PTP)
> give individual amps their distinctive "ring" - a nearly 'verb-like
> quality on highs (but different from what spring 'verb does) most tonally
> distinguishable in relatively clean playing at high gain. It is subtle &
> often the "unexplainable" difference in highs btw "great tone" and
> "magic."
Wow. Something else we agree on.
I might have to take you off the
Enemies List if this keeps up.
8^)
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lbrt...@aol.com
> There's a disc cap in the AB763 reverb circuit that will
> fool you into thinking the reverb recovery tube is
> excessively microphonic. It's much more sensitive in
> some amps than in others.
You bet. In one non-board AB763 build (not my idea) it even caused a
parasitic that took me awhile to track down. I, too, found it's
microphonics didn't want to be eliminated. FWIW in PTP even OD's are
desireably or undesireably microphonic in some places (tonestack caps
head & don't complete the list).
Take a good laugh from the fact that some here may defectate on their
bench stools from hearing professional tweakers mentioning a
tone-critical disc cap.
> If it's enough to be objectionable,
> a dab of silcone caulk (to change the mass) usually does
> the trick.
That's potentially valuable to me - I never though of this simple (and
also adjustable) thing, and it may cut down on the number of tweak
re-dresses or selective changes I've been doing. It may even give
better results, since parts changes are all hit/miss affairs.
> Insane, ain't it? ;-)
Well, it's art. All art is insane. :-^) The more highly
accomplished, the more insane or arcane the details get for its
refinement. As along as we don't get them out of focus or get lost in
them, yes? ISTM in any performing art, 90% of greatness is nothing
more than continual refinement of the foundational basics, over & over
again - and only then do we benefit from adding these "10%" touches
that put the act over the top. IMHO the reason there are so few
greats, is that everyone wants to know or have the 10% tricks, but
very few are willing to do the 90% long, often boring, hard work that
they rest on - and in our case whether it is on the playing side or
the building/tweaking side - or both.
I feel it's especially valuable what you are able to do for someone
like Derek. Even a reasonably accomplished player who is also a
longtime tech like myself, cannot tweak his own gear for his own
playing as well as another experienced tweaker can, & when it's not a
hobby but a vocation the difference is important. It is like trying
to fine-tune your own dancing or acting or shooting, or running your
own legal case just because you are a law expert - one can do it great
for others, but not so great for oneself, and may actually hold
oneself back trying. Pride of knowledge is the problem. Knowledge
doesn't fix these things very effectively - someone else's discernment
does. Ditto for your Six builds; if I were DT & having that problem,
I'd've never thought of that solution, but it'd be easy to think of it
for another player.
lbrt...@aol.com
> Wow. Something else we agree on.
>
> I might have to take you off the
> Enemies List if this keeps up.
Wasn't aware I'd gained any such status, but it won't be causing any
loss of sleep. But I suppose if I'm an enemy, then I may as well ask
you when (if ever) you're going to start selling the Del Rio you've
been working on since Caesar was a baby boy. ;-)