studying bop heads
D.Onstenk
now. Of course, many of the heads are just solos used as heads rather than
real "melodies" (confirmation, donna lee, ornithology, blues for alice,
groovin' high etc.) so there's so much bop vernacular to learn from them.
Really cool what Parker plays on certain changes and often eye openers to
me.
The fingerings presented in the bool are not always my cup of coffee though.
Quite consistently the higher positions are preferred which does not always
make sense to me. For instance, lots of fingering on confirmation I'd place
in 5th position rather than 10 but you can always change them to your taste.
Cool book.
#####
Keith Freeman
> though. Quite consistently the higher positions are preferred which
> does not always make sense to me. For instance, lots of fingering on
> confirmation I'd place in 5th position rather than 10 but you can
> always change them to your taste.
lower. Seems to me, if you start off that high, you've nowhere to go to
create tension later.
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl
MBR
> I'm working from "50 essential, bebop heads for guitar" (Hal Leonard) right
> now. Of course, many of the heads are just solos used as heads rather than
> real "melodies" (confirmation, donna lee, ornithology, blues for alice,
> groovin' high etc.) so there's so much bop vernacular to learn from them.
> Really cool what Parker plays on certain changes and often eye openers to
> me.
>
> The fingerings presented in the bool are not always my cup of coffee though.
Just wondering...which "position" do you play Billie's Bounce in? Man,
that's a tricky one for fingering.
-Mark R
D.Onstenk
ornithology way more difficult.
#####
"MBR" <jazz...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:b04a13f9.04012...@posting.google.com...
Dan Adler
> > The fingerings presented in the bool are not always my cup of coffee
> > though. Quite consistently the higher positions are preferred which
> > does not always make sense to me. For instance, lots of fingering on
> > confirmation I'd place in 5th position rather than 10 but you can
> > always change them to your taste.
> I agree. I prefer to play a lot of them (Donna Lee frinstance) an octave
> lower. Seems to me, if you start off that high, you've nowhere to go to
> create tension later.
There is a great video of Ulf Wakenius on his website doing 'Moose The
Mooch' in a lower octave which I found interesting. For some reason,
that head always gave me lots of trouble in the higher register, but
it sits nicely on the lower. Sounds better to my ears too. I think
it's an interesting development that guitarists started doing more and
more heads in lower registers.
JAS
difficult lines containing accidentals by moving down one fret to 4th pos.
just for the line. A couple of accidental flats puts you in 4th pos. where
the flats live ;^)
Maybe a b natural pops up too, the 4th pos. takes care of that. I use this
trick in tunes like "Shiny Stockings" in key of F.
JAS
"D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:bv8900$p5pot$1...@ID-105352.news.uni-berlin.de...
Jurupari
>ornithology way more difficult.
>
To me, they're about as easy chordally as they are in a single line. I have
chordal versions of Scrapple, Confirmation, Ornithology, Moose the Mooche, and
Donna Lee, all more or less at tempo. It took a long while to get them
together, but I'm fairly good at them now.
Clif Kuplen
MBR
> I play it in 1st position. Not much of a problem. I find confirmation and
> ornithology way more difficult.
>
Really? I have a tough time controlling the extra buzz of open
strings. Yes, Confirmation is tough. Ornithology seems playable in
fourth and fifth position.
jrw
"MBR" <jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b04a13f9.04012...@posting.google.com...
> "D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:<bv8900$p5pot$1...@ID-105352.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> that's a tricky one for fingering.
>
> -Mark R
I was just going over that last night. I kept moving up, up, up.... Finally
said screw it, dropped it an octave and played in the 1st position, where it
works nicely.
Jim
Bob Agnew
"Keith Freeman" <dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Xns947EA589B...@194.134.2.2...
Bob Agnew
"Bob Agnew" <rag...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:cF1Sb.24880$F15.3508@fed1read06...
Kurt Shapiro
position, but use different areas, usually in order to get a fingering that
gets a phrasing, but sometimes just because it's easier somewhere else.
I'm sure someone will tell me I'm doing it wrong, but it works for me.
John B
8th fret is 7th position?
--
John B
"Bob Agnew" <rag...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:6L1Sb.24912$F15.3996@fed1read06...
Bob Agnew
"John B" <ting...@anywhere.net> wrote in message
news:iP1Sb.19527$ws.25...@news02.tsnz.net...
John B
finger stretches?
--
John B
"Bob Agnew" <rag...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:VX1Sb.24988$F15.3732@fed1read06...
jazzychris
Użytkownik "John B" <ting...@anywhere.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:Hf2Sb.19530$ws.25...@news02.tsnz.net...
> Surely better to use fret under 2nd finger isn't it? What if you use 1st
> finger stretches?
Under? To be precise - position is one fret below 2nd finger (as you said -
because of possible 1st finger stretches).
--
jazzychris
John B
--
John B
"jazzychris" <WYTNIJTOj...@op.pl> wrote in message
news:Vt4Sb.360083$Tz1.1...@news.chello.at...
Keith Freeman
they sit best for phrasing. I can just about manage the head at the gentle
tempo of the Aebersold Indiana on the Dominants set. What I find difficult
with these Parker lines is memorizing them. I can get one to stick for a
while, but then it evaporates...
tomw
dont.use.t...@nowhere.com says...
> > Yeah I'm really liking "Donna Lee" in Ab in 4th position.
> I don't stay in one position, I base my fingering round the triads, where
> they sit best for phrasing. I can just about manage the head at the gentle
> tempo of the Aebersold Indiana on the Dominants set. What I find difficult
> with these Parker lines is memorizing them. I can get one to stick for a
> while, but then it evaporates...
>
> -Keith
I have the unfortunate tendency to learn Parker heads with a mistake or
two in them. Then I can't get them out of my mind, or I forget which is
the right way, confusing me and generally blowing my cool.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Paul Sanwald
> it sits nicely on the lower. Sounds better to my ears too. I think
> it's an interesting development that guitarists started doing more and
> more heads in lower registers.
>
joe pass is probably a big factor.
--paul
Joey Goldstein
John B wrote:
>
> Do you define position as the fret below the 2nd finger? E.g. 2nd finger on
> 8th fret is 7th position?
Haven't been following this thread but here is the definition of
position playing technique.
Basically, in Pos I it's a 1 finger per fret proposition.
Anything played in the 1st fret is played by the 1st finger.
Anything played in the 2nd feet is played by the 2nd finger.
Etc.
In Pos I the open strings are also available so no finger stretches are
necessary except for a 4th finger stretch to grab the high a on the 1st
string at the 5th fret.
In all other higher positions the 1st finger sometimes stretches down
*1* fret, never 2 or 3 frets and the 4th finger sometimes stretches up
*1* fret.
So the upper positions span a 6 fret area of the fretboard.
Because the 1st and 4th fingers are often stretching it is easy to loose
sight of which position the hand is really in. You are anchored into the
position by the middle 2 fingers. as soon as one of them plays in a
different fret you have shifted to another position.
Eg.
Pos V
Anything in the 5th fret is played with the 1st finger. (That's why it's
called Pos V.)
Anything in the 4th fret is also played with the 1st finger as a stretch.
Anything in the 6th fret is played with the 2nd finger. The 2nd finger
*only* plays in this fret. If it plays in another fret you have shifted
to another ppsition.
Anything in the 7th fret is played with the 3rd finger. The 3rd finger
*only* plays in this fret. If it plays in another fret you have shifted
to another ppsition.
Anything in the 8th fret is played with the 4th finger.
Anything in the 9th fret is also played with the 4th finger as a stretch.
Some people find it helpful to think of the fret below the 2nd finger as
being the fret from which the position is given it number rather than
the fret above the 1st finger.
MBR
> I learned it from the Benson version. I don't really just stay in one
> position, but use different areas, usually in order to get a fingering that
> gets a phrasing, but sometimes just because it's easier somewhere else.
>
> I'm sure someone will tell me I'm doing it wrong, but it works for me.
George makes that sound so easy. Yeah, I do some shifting around too
so I can get the phrasing and maintain a consistent tone. Certain
passages seem to lend themselves better to certain string
combinations.
MBR
That sounds interesting, Clif. Do you have sound files for those
online? I'd like to hear them.
-Mark R.
Jurupari
>online? I'd like to hear them.
Some early ones. I'm a little more polished now, but I'm still working on that
nailless right hand, so I haven't recorded any newer versions yet. There's a
Donna Lee over at my website.
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/clif/audio.htm
I went over and looked - there are several there, in whatever stage of
development they were in. Hope real audio format's ok - I don't have enough
room for mp3's. They'll play in the aol media player and several others.
Clif
Gerry
them *beginning* say, at the 8th position (Donna Lee, Ab). But it only
stayed there for about a half bar. None of them stay in a "position"
for more than a bar or two at best.
And so I might begin anywhere, but then due to the oft-cited critical
aspect of playing like a horn instead of the lowly guitar, I'm sliding
into notes and migrating positions so I can do embellishments easily
done on a sax that a guitarist can't do comfortably except in the right
location. Then angling towards another in order to do 2 mordents
followed by a turn a minor third apart or some such. But hey, it's
"horn-like"! So you gotta go where you can play them.
So I play Donna Lee from 5th to 11th, predominatly at the top, and
Confirmation in about the same location, though I do stray higher. Same
with most others.
I learned a couple long ago in lower positions but they just didn't
sound right to me. Alto sax and trumpet don't play heads in their
lowest register, and if that's what who we're trying to emulate, I
guess we shouldn't either.
--
First they gerrymander us into one-party fiefs. Then they tell us they only
care about the swing districts. Then they complain about voter apathy.
-- Gail Collins
Keith Freeman
> lowest register, and if that's what who we're trying to emulate, I
> guess we shouldn't either
tenor, not a screechy alto!
Karissa
b04a13f9.04012...@posting.google.com, "MBR"
<jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just wondering...which "position" do you play Billie's Bounce in? Man,
> that's a tricky one for fingering.
>
> -Mark R
I always play that head as an unison with the bass and I play it around
between 9th and the 15th fret; an octave up from the Benson version.
Karissa
Gerry
<dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > Alto sax and trumpet don't play heads in their
> > lowest register, and if that's what who we're trying to emulate, I
> > guess we shouldn't either
> How about tenor and baritone sax? If I'm trying to emulate anything, it's a
> tenor, not a screechy alto!
I thought when we said "play more like a horn" we were talking about
Bird, by and large. In any case tenors and bari's don't play in their
lowest registers either but in medium high. It's all about tessitura.
MBR
==================
I'm still trying to get the single note lines and you've gone and
harmonized everything! the nerve.... seriously though, you sound
great. Great harmonies and you keep things interesting in the
improvised sections too. geeez...now I better go practice ;-) (For
some reason the sound quality coming out of my machine was kind of
distorted especially on the low end. I was using real player)
-Mark R
Jurupari
>some reason the sound quality coming out of my machine was kind of
>distorted especially on the low end. I was using real player)
>
Hey, thanks Mark, I appreciate the kind words!
I don't know what would cause distortion. I've never gotten that from real
audio, but I use the aol player. I guess the whole 'real' thing is a dinosaur
by now anyway. I've gotta see if I can burn some lower res mp3's instead if I
ever get around to putting up newer sound files.
Anyway, thanks for listening, and I hope it might have given you some ideas
for your approaches too. I love those tunes and don't think I'll ever get tired
of them.
If the urge strikes you, there aren't too many people doing chordal
approaches, so you'd be breaking ground, so to speak.
Clif
Bob Agnew
four fingers down one fret.
"John B" <ting...@anywhere.net> wrote in message
news:SR4Sb.19558$ws.25...@news02.tsnz.net...
Bob Agnew
Cool Blues and Blues for Alice. They came back quick though.
"Keith Freeman" <dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Xns947F876C3...@194.134.2.2...
Keith Freeman
> Bird, by and large.
personal taste. Didn't do CC any harm!
> In any case tenors and bari's don't play in their
> lowest registers either but in medium high. It's all about tessitura.
True. A lot of Parker heads don't lie in the medium tessitura of the
guitar, they really need transposing.
Keith Freeman
> four fingers down one fret.
one thing it's going to cause additional strain on the muscles. And I love
the feeling of having my hand move around the neck freely.
Keith Freeman
> forgot Cool Blues and Blues for Alice. They came back quick though.
was able to make them sound lyrical, but he was about the only one who
could.
MBR
> >For
> >some reason the sound quality coming out of my machine was kind of
> >distorted especially on the low end. I was using real player)
> >
>
> Hey, thanks Mark, I appreciate the kind words!
>
> I don't know what would cause distortion. I've never gotten that from real
> audio, but I use the aol player. I guess the whole 'real' thing is a dinosaur
> by now anyway. I've gotta see if I can burn some lower res mp3's instead if I
> ever get around to putting up newer sound files.
>
> Anyway, thanks for listening, and I hope it might have given you some ideas
> for your approaches too.
Indeed... That is inspiring stuff, Cliff. There's always new
territory to explore. That's what keeps it interesting.
-Mark R
MBR
cliff minus one f that is.
Jurupari
Hey, that'll raise my average to D minus!
Gerry
<dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > I thought when we said "play more like a horn" we were talking about
> > Bird, by and large.
> I think more in terms of playing like Lester Young, but then that's my
> personal taste. Didn't do CC any harm!
>
> > In any case tenors and bari's don't play in their
> > lowest registers either but in medium high. It's all about tessitura.
> True. A lot of Parker heads don't lie in the medium tessitura of the
> guitar, they really need transposing.
Now you're thinking like a guitarist! And THERE lies the way of public
humiliation!
Gerry
<dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > I don't stretch. I simply move the wholw set of
> > four fingers down one fret.
> Me too. I don't see the point in keeping the hand in a fixed position. For
> one thing it's going to cause additional strain on the muscles. And I love
> the feeling of having my hand move around the neck freely.
I move out of position to slide back in, or to get a note that would
otherwise be "out of position". But if the next passage lies
comforatably in position, then yes, it would be a stretch.