priorities in music/life
paul
many times?
the kind of thing I'm thinking about is our own jimmy bruno worked in
vegas for years and years, but moved back to philly to be a jazz
guitarist and worked all kinds of gigs. that must have been a major
life decision for jimmy and his family, and I'd like to hear about what
caused it, how long it took before he did it, etc. I want to hear about
life decisions that you all have made, how they ended up, and what you
think about those decisions now.
a lot of us that didn't start playing jazz right away had a point
where we decided to focus on jazz (or maybe some other type of music),
maybe at the expense of a lot of things. what was that point for you?
what did you have to give up? looking back, how do you feel about that
decision?
some of us probably decided that we would need to do something to make
a living other than perform, like teach guitar or program computers or
fly planes. if this applies to you, tell us about it? did you fall into
your day job or was there a point where you decided to get a day gig,
and how did you feel about that? was it a feeling of defeat,
liberating, or both?
I am asking these questions because I spend a lot of time practicing,
composing and playing music. up until now I have always just sort of
done these things without really thinking a lot about why I am doing
them or how I am choosing to spend my time. I don't want to look back
in 20 years and realize that although I know 20 million standards, I
wish I had spent more time composing and performing my own music. so I
am thinking about these things now in an effort to be honest with
myself and determine where exactly my priorities are in music, since
I'm not getting any younger.
anyways, thanks for your thoughts/stories.
--paul
Max Leggett
I'm at one of those crossroads right now, and I'm about to turn away
from guitar to concentrate on composition and electronic music. I have
nerve damage in my hands: although I can still play, it's rough,
there's no flow, poor tone, blah blah. I can get down Wes and Joe Pass
lines but I can't construct anything particularly coherent. My hand
problems mean that I can't play what I hear. Listening to Stearns'
stuff made me realise I have an option, so I'm going to speak to my
sister [she's a composer] and get her advice on software. At the
moment I'm beating my head against a brick wall and it cheeseth me
orf. I need music on a deep emotional level, but trying to play well
when the physical basis just ain't there is simply depressing. So I
think yer right - we should all sit down every now and then, look
closely at what we're doing, and decide if that's going to take us to
where we want to be 10 years from now. The unexamined life not being
worth living and all that.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"If the gods wanted us to twist our spines about
while we played guitar, they would have given us
rubber bands rather than vertebrae. And then where
would humanity be? Propelling cornflakes box
submarines in some alien bathtub in an ungodly
time dimension where the music of the spheres
consisted of Kenny G."
Spinoza
--------------------------------------------------------------
paul
trained as a bassist classically but switched to guitar, no?
btw for scoring software I recommend Sibelius, and for electronic stuff
Reason seems to be quite popular.
Max Leggett
>max, I was really interested to hear from you, because IIRC you were
>trained as a bassist classically but switched to guitar, no?
I was trained classically as a bassist, plus a year of cello, but I
picked up the guitar at 13. Beatles, don'cha know. I played the bass
for a living for about 10 years with the guitar as a second
instrument. I chose the bass simply because I knew I'd never go
without gigs [the level of competition in the bass world being
markedly lower than amongst guitarists ] and it was my goal to play
professionally. So that was one life choice. When I stopped playing
for a living and got a day gig [the horror! the horror!] and went back
to school, I still needed to play, but the double bass, although a
wonderful instrument, does not lend itself to solo playing. So I took
up the classical guitar. Another life choice for another reason. Then
I got back into jazz, still on guitar. And now another life choice. I
don't regret any of those choices - they all led to wonderful things
and discoveries.
>btw for scoring software I recommend Sibelius, and for electronic stuff
>Reason seems to be quite popular.
I got a google on that right now. Tx for the tip.
Pt
Day job and family had priority.
Now that I don't do day jobs anymore I have the time to jam and gig
when ever I want.
Only problem is, even though I hate to admit it, I am getting older.
Driving 500 miles in 2 days, playing till 4 AM and not sleeping much
takes a serious toll on me.
It takes me a week to recover.
I'll keep doing it till I can't do it anymore.
Me and my guitar....Till death do we part.
Pt
tomb...@jhu.edu
At the age of 30 I found myself wanting
something more financially predictable.
I went back to school, and wound up teaching
at a university. I initially considered
teaching music, but decided against it and
went into social science instead. I have no
regrets about this at all.
Now I play only solo guitar, like a real
lame version of late Joe Pass on his nylon
string albums. I do miss playing in band
situations, but right now it's not in
the picture. If I move to another town
where there's more of a scene, I might
try to get back into that. But I really
like playing fingerstyle on nylon, and
am not so motivated to get my archtop
and pick chops back together. I miss the
interaction and the groove, but it
would take a lot of work to get the
repertoire and those chops back after
so many years. The great thing about
solo guitar is that you never have
to play anything you don't like.
Jimmy Bruno
> did you ever undergo a change in priorities in your musical life? how
> many times?
>
> the kind of thing I'm thinking about is our own jimmy bruno worked in
> vegas for years and years, but moved back to philly to be a jazz
> guitarist and worked all kinds of gigs. that must have been a major
> life decision for jimmy and his family, and I'd like to hear about what
> caused it, how long it took before he did it, etc. I want to hear about
> life decisions that you all have made, how they ended up, and what you
> think about those decisions now.
steady in film and TV. Great money. But I was a real unhappy
individual. I didn't like the work, I never felt it was my thing. And
I always wanted to play jazz.
One day I got fed up with th whole thing, hated the guitar and music. I
had saved a lot of money and made some good investments. I really
didn't know what I wanted to do, If this is what I had to do to make a
living playing guitar then I didn't want to play music, so I quit for
two years.
I wound up running and eventually buying a restaurant. Then someone, I
young bassist, Dave brodie, had heard I was this child prodigy jazz
guitarist . That's what people used to say when I was around 12. I
never thought that was true, just musician with their usually sense for
the dramatic.
Anyway, he got me playing again in my bar.
I decided that if I was going to play I would only play what I wanted
and that i would never, never, never work for anyone else ever again.
But fate moved and I met a real jazz guitar fanatic, Jack Prince. well
he had a restaurant too. So I started playing jazz 6 nights a week in
his place. He taped every night and finally after about a year or so he
sent three tunes to Concord records.
To make a long story short, Carl Jefferson who owned Concord at the time
offered me a 3 record deal with an option for 3 more.
I sold my part of the restaurant and after about 4 or 5 CDS I was on the
road making lot's of money doing what I love to do.
To this day I will not be hired by another musician or play in anyone
else's band.
At this point, this is about as good as it is going to get for me.
I want to play some different type music these days, more like what's
on Midnight Blue. A lot of people got bugged I made that kind of CD,
they saw it as me selling out my purist roots.
What they don't know is, I started playing avant garde jazz, then
fusion, then be bop. I found that there was a lot to those standard
tunes that I liked.
I dug out all my recordings of Bill Evans, Bird, Coltrane etc.
I will always play that type jazz but for right now I like the solo
thing and playing in a few different type bands playing original material.
Hopefully, I will get to record this music... it is not Jazz so that's a
problem, ironic isn't it.
Next thing is the new solo CD will be mostly tunes not suited to solo
guitar. Milestones, Iris, just learned that one again from the thread
here. things like that.
Should be finished in a few months. Still looking for material.
Throughout all this, I got divorced and married to same woman twice, so
3 times total. we've been to together this time for over 25 years. I
have a 36 year old son in grad school and a 14 year old daughter. I go
away on most weekend but am home as much as I can be.
I always say I am the luckiest MF on the planet.
Tonight I get to play at the local club with my favorite pianist, Sid
Simmons.
They will have a $15.00 cover charge .
And the end of the night I will get around $1100 to $1800. I'm not
trying to boast but since someone already posted some financial shit
about me, why not I do it and tell the truth.
On the road I ask for a lot more.
It goes up every year.
Aside from hating airports and flying, I guess I'm pretty content.
I like recording these days and intend to record all my new music
myself, in my house .Hopefully a record company will want it.
currently I am with Mel Bay records and very happy there. Concord was
and still is very good to me.
That's my bio , the short version
Ted Vieira
Bruno" <jimmy...@mac.com> wrote:
Great post Jimmy, and a great story. I really like your attitude. Inspiring.
Ted Vieira
--
http://www.TedVieira.com
Bio Information, CDs, Books, Free Online Lessons
Free Online Articles, Performance Schedule & more...
noisyjazzman
decent living doing it. What more could a person ask?
Greger Hoel
wrote:
>I have a 36 year old son in grad school
Damn!
Seriously, though, nice story. Very inspirational.
--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf
To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jimmy Bruno
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:59:38 -0500, Jimmy Bruno <jimmy...@mac.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I have a 36 year old son in grad school
>
>
> Damn!
>
> Seriously, though, nice story. Very inspirational.
Paul Kirk
you weren't just focused on guitar! Not to mention that a 36 year old is
too old to still be in grad school!
Paul K
Pt
life.
Today I like to keep it simple.
I play bar gigs for peanuts.
It's great fun, very little money, and it makes me happy.
All we have to strive for in life is happiness.
I feel that I have reached my goal.
Pt
Pt
wrote:
>Greger Hoel wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:59:38 -0500, Jimmy Bruno <jimmy...@mac.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I have a 36 year old son in grad school
>>
>>
>> Damn!
>>
>> Seriously, though, nice story. Very inspirational.
>Damn, should have typed 26. I'm not that old, only 51
Hmmmmm.....
36 yo son...51 yo....
Pt
Mac
Solo CD the whole way in the car. Unbelievable! So meaningful to listen
to the music retrospectively in the context of the real-time posts of
the artist. How cool. Mac
thom_j.
> Great post Jimmy, and a great story. I really like your attitude.
> Inspiring.
>
> Ted Vieira
two can hook'up!! This would be one fantastic event to see
and hear.... cheers thom_j.
Joe Finn
"paul" <pcsa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109444207....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> did you ever undergo a change in priorities in your musical life? how
> many times?
Paul:
I did.
I went to college and got a bachelor's in music. I told myself that I didn't
want a masters and or a teaching certificate and that the last thing I ever
wanted to do was teach. So when graduation came I took a gig with a band
that played resorts and hotels. I aspired to play jazz but my jazz sucked. I
was convinced that I sounded like shit. I've heard the tapes from those
years and I was right. I was a poor excuse for a jazz player.
After several years on the road it dawned on me that I was not getting any
closer to my jazz aspirations. So I quit the band I was in and began playing
only what I chose to play. That was over twenty years ago. I continue to
believe that I can connect with the audience only if I am playing the music
I'm passionate about.
My youthful attitudes towards teaching have changed. These days I take
private students and do clinics and I really love doing it. It's a great way
for me to share what I've learned with up and coming players. I've also
established a scholarship in my name for kids who are going to college for
jazz. I don't travel much. I'm pleased to be home with my wife and 16 year
old son. He's a musician too which is nice.
I continue to produce and promote my own recordings. My 6th indie cd is in
the works. Maybe I'll get a deal with a label someday. Maybe not. It doesn't
matter that much because I'm very pleased to be doing something creative
with my life that I'm passionate about.
When people talk to me about this kind of thing I tell them to stay
connected to their passion. You could take literally anything that you
really loved and make a career out of it if you really wanted to. It's true.
When people lose their connection with this passion they are making a big
mistake. It's a blueprint for misery. People who take jobs just to earn
money while they put the things they love on hold are losing touch with some
of the most important things in life. We all know people like this.
I'm glad I stuck with what I love. I think it makes me happy. <g>
Which I guess means that it does indeed make me happy.
At this point [age 52] I wouldn't change a thing. ......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
Mac
passion.
Joe Finn
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
"Jimmy Bruno" <jimmy...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:KtOdnaz20op...@comcast.com...
Joe Finn
"Mac" <macpl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109479580.9...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Great post Joe. I'm glad for you and wish I'd been as true to my
> passion.
It's never too late. .....joe
noisyjazzman
really wanted to do with our lives, I'm sure our societies would be in
better shape.
Long may your good fortune continue.
Morey Richman
> passion.
Interesting thread ...
At the age of 30 and having spent the previous 10 years as a pro playing
guitar in different bands and in the middle of my first recording contract
that was going nowhere, I panicked and decided that the traveling musician
life was just a little too insecure for me and quit going on the road. After
a couple of years of living with and seeing the realities of what record
contracts were REALLY like (check out what Steve Vai has to say about them,
all of which are true unfortunately
http://www.vai.com/AllAboutSteve/postcard_040220.html), I decided that I'd
rather HAVE a record company than be signed to one, so I started a
compilation company that licensed and recorded tracks for the purposes of
selling budget priced CDs in non traditional outlets like Starbucks, WalMart
outposts, Best Buy, bookstores (before CDs were a fixture in these types of
retail outlets), etc - if you're reading Jimmy, one of my initial partners
was Glen Barros at Concord - it was a very tough decision for me at the time
and one that I often wondered if it was the right decision considering I
just about stopped playing entirely for the better part of 10 years and
missed it terribly, yet it was a decision that I felt I had to make at the
time. I sold the company last year, so ironically I am now able to focus
once again on guitar playing and hopefully regaining some of the chops I had
when I was 25 years old, but it's probably too late for me at this point to
make a serious run of it (44 years old now and not nearly as good a player
as I was 20 years ago). The difference is that at least at this point, I
could do what I want, when I want and not have to worry about the
uncertainties and compromises that sometimes occur when responsibilities and
need for money dictate the direction of an aging guitarist's career.
Regrets? None at all, but seeing guys like Kevin, Tom, Joe and others (not
to mention the more established stars like Jimmy) happily making a full time
go of it, it makes me respect the perseverance and will to "stick it out"
that these guys have shown over the years all the more - something that I
wasn't evidently prepared to do at the time. I feel that having the record
company and learning about contracts, publishing, manufacturing and the
music business in general, not to mention all of the industry people I got
to know was very interesting and enlightening for me (not to mention the
financial security of a day gig) but sometimes I can't help but think of
what would have happened had I continued following the musical path - some
of the people I played with have had and continue to have great careers.
Tom Lippincott
Hi Paul;
I'm not sure if my situation totally applies to your question, but maybe it
will at least to some degree.
I was definitely predisposed from a young age to do something creative, I
think, although it wasn't until I was 12 or so that I decided definitely on
music, after hearing the Beatles. Hearing them inspired me to learn to play
the guitar, and reading stories about their early days in Hamburg (which
seemed way more cool in my teenage mind that it probably actually was) made
me want more than anything to make my living playing the guitar. I didn't
really care how or in what capacity as much, I just knew I wanted to be a
"professional musician." After I met my first guitar teacher at 17, that
idea was reenforced. I thought he was the coolest adult I'd ever met, and
he became a big role model. Yada yada, anyway, I'm one of those for whom
the idea of a non music day job has always seemed unthinkable. When I first
got out of school and was newly married and broke, I tried to get a few part
time non music jobs to help pay the bills, but no one was interested in
hiring a guy with a masters in jazz guitar to drive their delivery truck or
whatever. Unless you count teaching as a "day job," I've never had one and
at this point I can't imagine I ever will.
As anyone who has known me for any amount of time knows (including you),
I've waffled back and forth for years on the subject of moving to New York
and/or Boston. I've come pretty close to moving to both places several
times, but I always ended up chickening out in the end for one reason or
another. This past summer my Dad died, and as often happens when a family
member or friend dies, I went through some "reevaluation of my life" time
for a while. I definitely had one of those "life is short, you'd better
make the most out of the time you have" realizations, but the conclusions I
came to suprised me. Rather than deciding to once and for all to pack my
bags and move to the big apple, I came to another conclusion entirely. I've
known in the back of my mind for years that New York would eat me alive.
I'm really shy and soft spoken, and really bad at being a self promoter or
at anything that requires any sort of competetive spirit, and everything I
know about NY leads me to believe that a non-day-job-having musician (who
isn't independently wealthy) had better be a real fighter in order to
survive there. In the mean time, I've begun teaching again. Before when I
was teaching I looked at it as sort of a "lesser of two evils" thing, the
other being starving. When I started doing okay enough financially by just
playing gigs to at least subsist, I quit university teaching altogether, and
rarely taught privately. In the last few years I've started realizing I'm
not 18 anymore (I'm 38 now) and that the idea of living on gigs for the rest
of my life was getting less and less attractive. So I looked into getting
back into teaching, just to get my feet wet at first. To my great suprise,
I found that I got a much deeper sense of fulfillment out of it than I had
when I was younger. Once I started seeing actual results with some of my
students, and realized I'd had at least something to do with those results,
I started feeling like the teaching I was doing was at least as important of
a contribution to the world as any playing I'd ever done. And the added
bonus is, though I'm not rich by any means, I'm making substantially more
money now that I ever did just playing gigs.
I guess I've always associated moving to NY with "getting to the next level"
of my career, such that it is, and that's the thing that for such a long
time has kept me from giving up on the idea. But I guess the big sort of
revelation I've recently had is that my life isn't completely a failure and
worth nothing if I don't become "famous" or play with all the heavies or
whatever. I think I've finally once and for all come to realize I'm just
not the kind of guy who is willing or able, at least not at this point in my
life, to go through the kinds of things someone like me would have to go
through to be able to live the NY life. I know that I'm definitely not a
Bird or Jaco or Lenny Breau type player who has something so powerful that
all I need is my playing to get me "noticed" in a big pond like NY, and I
really don't have much else. At any rate, I feel like I've just recently
begun to make peace with the idea of settling down in S. Florida, teaching,
and doing gigs around town. There are also a few personal reasons that have
over the years made the idea of leaving here more and more difficult, so my
decision isn't based solely on the above.
What my decision does NOT mean, however, is that I'm giving up on my
commitment to music. I intend to spend the rest of my life working as hard
as I can to improve myself as a player, a composer, a teacher, and a person
(which I think has a lot to do with the first three items), and I'm not even
completely giving up on the idea of trying to further some sort of career,
but I've just decided that, for the foreseeable future at least, I'm going
to be doing all those things from S. Florida, and whatever happens happens.
In a perfect world I'd love to get to be around the NY scene, tour Europe or
other places as a sideman or with my own group playing my own music or other
peoples' music that I'm passionate about, but in the real world I've sort of
decided that sort of thing isn't the be all end all and that that vague pot
of gold at the end of the rainbow isn't worth sacrificing everything else
for. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm giving up on my dream and being a
defeatist or anything; it's not really like that. The one regret I do have
(that I've only recently just realized) is that I actually think I would
have moved to NY when I first got out of college; I was young and stupid
enough to actually do it back then. But I got married and stayed in Florida
instead. The marriage didn't last, and now I'm in a different place in my
life than I was back then. And I do wonder what would have happened if I'd
made the move all the way back then. The funny thing is, my last year in
school I was telling everyone that I was moving to NY as soon as I
graduated. For years afterward I would run into musicians I'd been in
school with who would say "OH, you're still around? I thought you moved to
New York!"
Paul, in a lot of ways I'm envious of you; you DO live in NY, are making a
living, and because of your day gig can do just the gigs you want to do.
The closest thing to a "day gig" that I can ever imagine doing is university
teaching. If I could get a teaching gig up there that paid enough to cover
all my bills, I'd definitely move up there. Unfortunately I don't think I
can compete with people like Ben Monder, Pete McCann, Abercrombie, Goodrick,
ect. I guess I can see why you might be reexamining your priorities, but
from where I sit it seems like in a lot of ways you really have the best of
all worlds.
One thing that does occur to me with regards to your comment about learning
20 million tunes versus composing; after you die, the fact that you knew 20
million tunes won't "live on" (unless you have "knew 20 million tunes"
printed on your headstone, heh) but your own compositions and music will.
Of course, the counter argument could be that learning a lot of tunes will
enhance your playing, and, probably, your composing as well. Maybe if both
things are important to you it might be a good idea to make a point of
proportioning out your available time to work on both.
Sorry for such a long post. Don't know what got into me. I guess this is
the first time I've put a lot of these thoughts into words. I feel like I
just got off the therapist's couch.
--
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm
Jimmy Bruno
studios, lot's of money , very unhappy. I 'd still be happy playing
jazz even if I were poor
Joe Finn
"noisyjazzman" <noisyj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109482876....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Thanks, my friend. ....joe
Rick Ross
JB..that sums it up..
"better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven"
John Milton
William C.
More oppurtunities, "golden," than I care to care about, which I.... didn't
really care about.
Never took it seriously in the past.
Other things took priority, the number one being.... looking past what
passes for reality and exploring... After all, you only get One Soul per
customer, you're born dying, and one day the deed is done... Just had to
peek.
Some spirit songs of late, reason for playing again. Some sidetracks into
the flesh, steamy and stinkin', courtesy of Bourbon Street... and some
stumbling around with a mixed bag and what to do with it... but pretty much
on track kinda' sorta'... shall see what we shall see.
Gerry
<pcsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> did you ever undergo a change in priorities in your musical life? how
> many times?
Endlessly. Just endlessly. Probably every two years since 1965. A
change in styles or in instruments can change your entire social
context, the people you hang with, the way you think about or study
music, the towns you live in, etc.
> the kind of thing I'm thinking about is our own jimmy bruno worked in
> vegas for years and years, but moved back to philly to be a jazz
> guitarist and worked all kinds of gigs.
Well that was certainly a major life change. I'm unsure how it relates
to "priorities" as you mentioned. As we know from following posts,
Jimmy's priority, with a goodly stash of money accrued, was that money
was less important than his happiness.
When I had a most significant life change of this variety I was playing
miserable gigs for 12 years that I hated too. When I quit it, I was
broke so immediately had to get a job. It wasn't a good one, but it
paid the rent. I had to work hard to pay the rent though. And so for
a number of years music became quite secondary, from a performance
standpoint, in my life.
> a lot of us that didn't start playing jazz right away had a point
> where we decided to focus on jazz (or maybe some other type of
> music), maybe at the expense of a lot of things. what was that point
> for you? what did you have to give up? looking back, how do you feel
> about that decision?
When I changed from a pop/blues performer to jazz fanatic I had worked
for a number of years in clubs in Oklahoma and Texas and had saved up
enough money to survive without gigging for a few years. I moved to
NYC with the specific intent to study and gig playing jazz. I never
really gigged, but did study for awhile. When the money ran out some
two years later I moved to Texas.
By the time I came back I was totally enthralled in jazz and playing
other musics was fine for the money and the fun (when applicable), but
the big dream was to play jazz.
But shortly thereafter, since I got a straight job, I no longer had any
fixed relationship between money and musical appreciation and musical
development. As a result it was very easy to begin expkirubg Brazilian
musics at great depth which I did for 10+ years. Had my musical world
been tethered to hustling gigs, recording jingles, endlessly
"networking" other musicians and clubs/club-ownders explore such
esoterica would have dropped to an insignificant priority. Instad it
was a major priority and was vastly rewarding in a personal/musical
sense.
> some of us probably decided that we would need to do something to
> make a living other than perform, like teach guitar or program
> computers or fly planes. if this applies to you, tell us about it?
> did you fall into your day job or was there a point where you decided
> to get a day gig, and how did you feel about that? was it a feeling
> of defeat, liberating, or both?
At the point I exited the business I had already taught guitar here and
there over the years and detested it. I think I would be better at it
now, but I was terrible at it then. One reason why was my students were
amazingly unmotivated, and I had a hard time manufacturing motivation.
When I quit the business the idea of becoming a teacher would have been
seen as of less value than continuing to work C&W ballroom puke-fests.
> I am asking these questions because I spend a lot of time practicing,
> composing and playing music. up until now I have always just sort of
> done these things without really thinking a lot about why I am doing
> them or how I am choosing to spend my time. I don't want to look back
> in 20 years and realize that although I know 20 million standards, I
> wish I had spent more time composing and performing my own music. so
> I am thinking about these things now in an effort to be honest with
> myself and determine where exactly my priorities are in music, since
> I'm not getting any younger.
I spent a significant chunk of a few years working hard at composition,
sometimes in pop-music collaborations and other times in more legit
settings. It was very very hard work and never really culminated in
anything meaningful. How could it? I didn't really have a sense of
who/what I was composing *for*. I wrote some string quartets, but who
to perform them? Especially as initial student works. They were
certainly good musical learning opportunities. But such work, when it
doesn't seem to exist outside the office, is hard to maintain.
On the other hand I knew some other guys that were just face-down into
composition and couldn't have done anything else to save their soul.
That must have been more about *who they were* as musicians. I wasn't
that guy.
It's well and good to decide what you would like to be doing or how you
would like to see your progress from the vantage point of 20 years
distance. But if it's not who you are, what you are, what you *want*
to spend your time doing, I have doubts about how easily it can be
done. Sure, many of us would prefer to be Mancini or Cole Porter. But
are we willing to put in the work in that one focused direction to the
extent necessary to get there? Are we driven--in that way? Or are we
driven in another and not so enthusiastic about it. Or are we not
driven at all? I think that young folk are more driven at everything.
As the years drift by the momentum (for important things, folly,
dreams, plans--everything) becomes more diffuse. Or a wife and child
enter and vastly change the scope of our personal picture.
If you want to turn your attention and focus to composition, by all
means do it. Certainly life can only accomodate so many jobs and
hobbies; something else in your daily life will have to give in order
to accomodate a significant sea change.
All good wishes for your next flight plan.
--
The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who
are undecided.
-- Casey Stengel
edisoned
seeing the Beatles on Ed Sullivan did the trick. Played rock and blues
all through school and discovered jazz when I was 18. Then I devoted
myself to studying, listening and seeing as much jazz as possible.
Played around NY for a few years, studied with Ted Dunbar, among some
other greats teachers ( Harry Leahy, Mike Santiago).
After a pending record deal fell through, I decided that I didn't want
any part of this business and spent a year travelling the country.
Ended up n Alaska and eventually ended up back in Jersey, broke but
happy. Eventually I ended up on the west coast and have been here for
over 20 years. I've been in and out of the "business" many times but
I've never given up playing and I feel like I'm playing better than
ever.
Now I live in a small town in Oregon and I play more jazz then I did
when I lived in the city. Somehow, I got into booking, management and
promotion of jazz as a sideline so even though I live in a fairly
isolated area, I still get to meet, hang and play occasionally with
great players like John Stowell, Mimi Fox, Mundell Lowe, Russell
Malone, Jamie Findlay, Duck Baker, to name a few.
I think there is an the old saying about, do what you love, the rest
will follow is pretty accurate. No matter what we do for a living, we
need to remember the reason we picked up the instrument in the first
place.
Ed
paul
paul
joemont...@hotmail.com
> I guess this is
> the first time I've put a lot of these thoughts into words. I feel
like I
> just got off the therapist's couch.
Tom, Thanks for the inspiration to take a crack at this...I've actually
written a few things, then cancelled, thinking it was getting "too
Freud."
My story is similar to lots of people here, inspired by Beatles, etc.,
even coming to Jazz Guitar late in my guitar life (early 40's).
Ironically, two of the events that got me interested in a more focused
and visible jazz guitar setting was seeing Great Guitars in a NW club
and then Jimmy Bruno in Seattle in 95 or 96 in a trio concert. And for
the last 10 years I've tried to do everything possible to place myself
in musical situations that would "accelerate" my learning curve about
the jazz idiom and the guitar's place in it. I felt like I had an
overwhelming amount of catching up to do so I set out to learn every
tune in The Real Book by hearing the original recordings. I got to the
"H's" and then someone told me hey, there are a gazillion real books.
In my own little way, I guess I was fairly successful at it because
"overnight" I started gigging fairly steadily in all kinds of
situations, some good, some not, some great paying, some non-paying,
some posh venues, some that needed major hosing by suited guys. I
thought, yeah, this is great, to get a "second chance" with the
instrument in hand. I had done the LA, Vegas sideman thing for almost
16 years prior to discovering Joe Pass, Wes, Parker, but I had met and
worked with many veteran jazzers along the way, some pretty dang
famous...imagine you're 21-22 yrs. old in a B3-trio with a nice
"cabaret" style Vegas show and your drummer gets sick and you turn
around to meet the sub and it's Ed Shaunessey!!!
Now I'm 53 and I haven't done anything remotely resembling a day job
for at least 20 years...and I'm doing something now I've never done in
all those years...turning down gigs and making up a lot of excuses
(some pretty pathetic) for why...too far to drive, not enough money,
singer smells (actually a true story-the whole band quit because no one
could ride in her van for the "funk"), too loud, bass player has a
nicer car (not really, but sometimes, for no real logical reason I just
say no). This behavior is definitely at odds with my fiscal realities.
But I can't seem to make the money for the gig a good enough stand
alone reason anymore to take the gig, even a fairly decent gig with
good players...they are scratching their heads, going, what's with him,
is he nuts? -
Maybe so...I still love playing guitar, and I worked pretty hard to
reach the level I'm playing at, whatever that may be, no less trying to
maintain it for whatever reason, so I'm really at an impasse- Is it
time for me to go the way of many (and finally grow up at 53) and get
some kind of day job (wow, I actually typed those words!!!) It feels
like if I do that I'd be giving up the only persona I've ever had.
I'm really stuck in neutral, mentally, about the gigging thing and so,
of course, I'm overanalyzing it to death...Some days I'm ok with it,
other days I'm kicking myself with the boot going "you jerk, take the
gigs, others would be chomping to do them"...
I've even thought about taking the guitars and putting them out of
sight and trying to see what life would be like without them for a
year.
Still, 30 years is a good run...would I have done it differently in
retrospect?
Nah.
JM, on the couch
joemont...@hotmail.com
> I guess this is
> the first time I've put a lot of these thoughts into words. I feel
like I
> just got off the therapist's couch.
Tom, Thanks for the inspiration to take a crack at this...I've actually
Ted Vieira
1109478993.f5aededdb801df96a90f96942e67665d@teranews, "Joe Finn"
<J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> When people talk to me about this kind of thing I tell them to stay
> connected to their passion. You could take literally anything that you
> really loved and make a career out of it if you really wanted to. It's true.
> When people lose their connection with this passion they are making a big
> mistake. It's a blueprint for misery. People who take jobs just to earn
> money while they put the things they love on hold are losing touch with some
> of the most important things in life. We all know people like this.
>
> I'm glad I stuck with what I love. I think it makes me happy. <g>
>
> Which I guess means that it does indeed make me happy.
> At this point [age 52] I wouldn't change a thing. ......joe
Great post, Joe. Very true words.
Ted
Ted Vieira
<thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ted, I hope when you get over here to Atlantic City you'all
> two can hook'up!! This would be one fantastic event to see
> and hear.... cheers thom_j.
Hey Thom,
I've never been over that way so I hope it works out. I'd love to see that
part of the country. I'll keep you posted if the gig gets confirmed.
Ted
paul
--paul
Stan Fong
> studios, lot's of money , very unhappy. I 'd still be happy playing jazz
> even if I were poor
It's the same with me. I work at a job doing what I like at a TV station.
Being the gearhead that I am, I have access to all the gear I want. I've
even borrowed a couple of nice mics to try out at home. But even more
important I have great friends, great family, a great woman, and great
guitars. That makes me happier than anything else.
Stan
Adam Gottschalk
> did you ever undergo a change in priorities in your musical life? how
> many times?
Yes. Four or five major times. One when I droped the fingerpicks and the
traditional blues stuff and started playing more free-form solo stuff,
influenced by Tuck Andress and Michael Hedges. Two, when I started
playing electric guitar and attempting (lamely) to get into jazz. Three,
when I started taking vocals seriously and studied vocal production
seriously. Four, when I finally realized I love the bass more than the
guitar. And five, when I finally realized that I want to be a musician,
an option I've never allowed for myself, mostly because I've so many
musician friends who are poor, and so I just never let myself think of
it as "legiitimate" (what would Mom think?).
In order for me, with my all-over-the-map brain, to focus of music, I
know from experience, I need to totally immerse myself in it. To be
_allowed_ to do that. These days, a working stiff can hardly immerse
themselves in anything other than the bread labor. Thus, for me, this
immersion necessitates going back to school, for a second bachelor's,
this time in music (a "post-baccalaureate" program). I did economics and
environmental studies for my first degree.
Remarkably, an experience which should have changed my priorites
(instead, I remained a hack), was going to Johnson O'Connor in NYC, at
my mother's pleading, an aptitude and vocational testing and consulting
place. After four or five hours of every kind of test you can imagine
(put as many pins in the holes as you can in 30 sec, write as many words
as you can in 1 min, say which two notes are different, etc.), the woman
in my consultation told me that in music I would, without question, find
the most satisfaction and reward. I don't know why I didn't take it to
heart. My divorce a couple of years ago has played a part in my taking
it to heart now, at 35.
> a lot of us that didn't start playing jazz right away had a point
> where we decided to focus on jazz (or maybe some other type of music),
> maybe at the expense of a lot of things. what was that point for you?
> what did you have to give up? looking back, how do you feel about that
> decision?
All through my childhood and young adulthood (after I started playing
electric guitar), I "tried" to get into jazz one way or another. All the
classic stuff everyone told me I was supposed to dig just didn't do it
for me. In my early twenties, I heard a Scofield track for the first
time (Twang from Grace Under Pressure), and I literally thought, "Holy
shit, jazz guitar is allowed to sound like that?" From there on in I got
the jazz bug hook, line, and sinker. The way I see it, Jazz is the
mother of American popular music; hence, to immerse oneself in it is to
give up nothing--just the opposite. There is no question in my mind that
playing jazz can only benefit your playing of other forms.
Aaron Kumove
I am a regular lurker and occassional poster here.
This is a very good thread.
For me it came down to a simple question: "was I enjoying what I was
doing or not?"
In my case after doing a music degree and hustling gigs and teaching for
a number of years I came to the conclusion that the business of music
was not overly enjoyable to me. The turning point for me came when I
was on the road with a top 40 band playing music I hated just to pay the
bills. At that point I decided to get a real job to pay the bills and
only play stuff I liked when I liked as a "hobby". I also looked around
at older jazz players I knew, some of whom were truly excellent, but who
lived on the bones of their ass and were embittered unhappy people that
the world had not recognised and rewarded their talent and hard work. I
knew that I did not want to end up like that.
What's the upshot of my decision? Well, I play fewer gigs, but I love
the gigs I do play, I have a day job that I like, and I still
play/practice/write every day to keep myself at a reasonable level of
competency.
When I made the decision to give up trying to make a living from music
there was a part of me that felt like a failure, and while I had
"failed" at the business of music, that didn't mean that I had "failed"
as a musician.
Today I have a nice balance between family, work and music and that
makes me happy. Would I like to have the time to play/practice/write in
the hours that I am working? Of course I would, but the trade-off has
ben a good one for me.
Aaron
paul wrote:
> did you ever undergo a change in priorities in your musical life? how
> many times?
>
> the kind of thing I'm thinking about is our own jimmy bruno worked in
> vegas for years and years, but moved back to philly to be a jazz
> guitarist and worked all kinds of gigs. that must have been a major
> life decision for jimmy and his family, and I'd like to hear about what
> caused it, how long it took before he did it, etc. I want to hear about
> life decisions that you all have made, how they ended up, and what you
> think about those decisions now.
>
> a lot of us that didn't start playing jazz right away had a point
> where we decided to focus on jazz (or maybe some other type of music),
> maybe at the expense of a lot of things. what was that point for you?
> what did you have to give up? looking back, how do you feel about that
> decision?
>
> some of us probably decided that we would need to do something to make
> a living other than perform, like teach guitar or program computers or
> fly planes. if this applies to you, tell us about it? did you fall into
> your day job or was there a point where you decided to get a day gig,
> and how did you feel about that? was it a feeling of defeat,
> liberating, or both?
>
> I am asking these questions because I spend a lot of time practicing,
> composing and playing music. up until now I have always just sort of
> done these things without really thinking a lot about why I am doing
> them or how I am choosing to spend my time. I don't want to look back
> in 20 years and realize that although I know 20 million standards, I
> wish I had spent more time composing and performing my own music. so I
> am thinking about these things now in an effort to be honest with
> myself and determine where exactly my priorities are in music, since
> I'm not getting any younger.
>
Tom Lippincott
paul <pcsa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109528772.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> wow great post. thanks tom.
>
oh, good to hear that. After I hit send, I was imagining you reading it and
it being like that scene in Seinfeld where George finally breaks down and
tells Jerry all his darkest hopes and fears, and Jerry looks terrified,
backs away slowly and says "oKAY......good luck with all ..THAT" heh.
Tom Lippincott
> really good post jimmy, thanks. this might be your longest post ever!
>
I think he's secretly been practicing his typing skills, too.
thom_j.
> thom, are you in AC?
ole muddy delaware river.. 8^)'. cheers curious tee'.
Jimmy Bruno
letter, it's easy. But I'm still wokring on it.. see what I mean
Sotos
Here's a big secret regarding improving one's typing skils....
"The keys are in the same place every day"
Really.
(Insert smiley of one's preference here)
Jimmy Bruno
but not on the keyboard
Tom Walls
pcsa...@gmail.com says...
> a lot of us that didn't start playing jazz right away had a point
> where we decided to focus on jazz (or maybe some other type of music),
> maybe at the expense of a lot of things. what was that point for you?
> what did you have to give up? looking back, how do you feel about that
> decision?
>
I watched the Oscars last night and heard a bunch of exhortations about
"following your dream" and "believing in yourself". That's all well and
good, but I think it's a good idea to temper one's enthusiasm with a
healthy dose of self-awareness. For every actor nominated for an Oscar
there are thousands following their dreams and perpetually out of work.
We've had a number of conversations here about "talent vs hard work" and
"nature vs nurture", but I don't think anyone will seriously argue that
our gifts are not varied and unique. We make sacrifices to follow our
dreams and for better or worse the people we love make them right along
with us. I have the uneasy feeling I may have made $500,000 worth of
sacrifices in deference to two bits worth of talent. My dream was equal
to anyone's.
> some of us probably decided that we would need to do something to make
> a living other than perform, like teach guitar or program computers or
> fly planes. if this applies to you, tell us about it? did you fall into
> your day job or was there a point where you decided to get a day gig,
> and how did you feel about that? was it a feeling of defeat,
> liberating, or both?
>
> I am asking these questions because I spend a lot of time practicing,
> composing and playing music. up until now I have always just sort of
> done these things without really thinking a lot about why I am doing
> them or how I am choosing to spend my time. I don't want to look back
> in 20 years and realize that although I know 20 million standards, I
> wish I had spent more time composing and performing my own music. so I
> am thinking about these things now in an effort to be honest with
> myself and determine where exactly my priorities are in music, since
> I'm not getting any younger.
>
I would say that a some point if behooves the artist(or craftsman) to
make an unsentimental appraisal of their own efforts and begin to play
to their strengths. Where is it that you shine? Ensemble player,
improvisor, composer, arranger, theory, educator, singer...? Sure you
need to work on your weak areas, but if you're going to get anywhere,
it's your gifts that will take you there.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Five Sharp
ago. At the time I was amazed at how many thought that with the right effort
everybody could be a great player.
I am still not buying it. I think the top in any given discipline consists
of people that have put in both talent and (maybe hard) work. Not hard work
only.
I think it's easier to be great in something with much talent and little
effort than to be great in it with little talent and much effort. So I think
talent is a way more important variable than hard work.
I think an exceptionally talented person can be a great jazz guitar player
within just a few years' time, so within a relatively short learning cycle.
Van Ruller, Bireli Lagrene come to mind. And I'm sure this holds good for
many of the great jazz masters.
#####
"Tom Walls" <tw...@cornell.edu> schreef in bericht
news:cvvbu9$erj$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu...
icarusi
> did you ever undergo a change in priorities in your musical life? how
> many times?
Although I followed a different profession, I always harboured a notion that
I could follow a career in music at some later time, either as a performer
or composer. I realised (in my own mind) I wasn't consistent enough to be
comfortable as a performer, nor prolific or consistent enough to be
comfortable as a composer, so I'm now fairly content to remain a good
standard amateur, able to sit in with pros and ex pros without feeling too
limited (although I don't try to disguise my limitations).
Enough of those musicians and audience members complement me on my playing,
so that even if I don't think I'm playing so well, it's 'generally' getting
across OK, and even that audience/musician feedback convinces me that
sometimes they can hear the bigger picture, which is more than just the
notes and detail, which I'm likely to be focusing on hearing.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
thom_j.
> I know , just like guitar. I know where the sounds on the guitar are but
> not on the keyboard
into a sound keyboard, & I'd wonder if that would make your typing
easier? Since you blaze like fire on the fretboard I will bet after a few
days of "a typing sound keyboard" you'd be blazing there too with no
mistakes... just a thought tee'...
p.s. of course it'll probably sound melodically horrible with the letters
you'll need to type, & you'll start swaring at the keyboard. So maybe
it aint such a good idea? hahaha
thom_j.
> I watched the Oscars last night and heard a bunch of exhortations about
> "following your dream" and "believing in yourself". That's all well and
> good, but I think it's a good idea to temper one's enthusiasm with a
> healthy dose of self-awareness. For every actor nominated for an Oscar
> there are thousands following their dreams and perpetually out of work.
I know I am jaded but when it comes to many of the commercialized
genres of movies and even music to some extent.. Money$ talks and
probably the "couch casting" is still alive & well too so all that babble
last night was just that, babble. So, if you aint got the $doe$ you aint
in the know(or in their little click) & it's sad but true. imho, jaded tee'
Mr.Will
just managed to read it).
I played music all my life, well as far back as I can remember. The story
told by Bruno is an inspiring one to say the least. When I was about 18 I
had a band, and the priority was to "make it" - which of course none of us
really knew what that meant, we knew it included money and girls and artful
rock poses - though none of us were that sort of character to say the least.
The cool thing there was that we wrote all our own material and never played
a cover, and actually got gigs based on our own creations. Anyhow when
University beckoned two of us got cold feet and decided that the "safer"
option was for them. I think one is now working at a bank, the other a
police officer. I got into jazz in an odd way. The band Spin Doctors had a
big hit on these shores around 1992. I heard some live album where they
improvised on tunes for ages. I read up about them and how they did things
like swap band members with the opening band so that the gig didnt stop.
They made things up on the spot, which just seemed to be an odd thing to do.
Then I read an interview with the guitar player, who had studied jazz
apparently with Jim Hall and learned to find his own voice. I then spent
ages trying to figure out jazz, and forcing myself to listen to dissonant
stuff and trying to find out how I could get into it. Martin Taylor did a
concert in my town and for the first time I saw a player who played with my
style (fingers) and yet the music wasnt Bach or Etude or anything classical.
I then also saw Tuck and Patti on VH1 and the music just moved me beyond
belief. It was a ballad - Takes my Breath Away.
At that point I didnt know anything about difficulty of the style of
playing, nor did I really think anything of jazz.
I went to University to study business because I figured whatever I learned
there would apply to any musical career. I also knew based on what we had
done and what I saw from alot of musicians that business skills, or more
importantly, being able to empathise with business people was the skill most
lacking. During that time I got further with sports and played rugby to a
decent level, and boxed in University championships, and guitar became
something I used to do.
Then a few months after graduating, one of the first guys in the original
band came back from doing a charity stint in Bosnia, and we set up Planet
Sound - community music - encouraging people to get into music to whatever
level they can. Every year we work with thousands of people - and I'd say
about 250 "hard core" ones. On the way I got into African percussion (West
African), Samba and as an organisation we have played at Symphony Hall in
Birmingahm with some people I consider to have prestige. Paul asks did I
feel deflated or liberated? Its hard to say really because what we're doing
really doesnt count as a job to me. Learning percussion and different
approaches to music has enhanced my guitar work immensely - more than I
think any degree of formal study would have done. At some point I just
cracked, not playing drove me mad and I put some time into doing solo
guitar, helped immensely by fellow newsgroup Tom Lippincott, and Charlie
Robinson soon after, and many more.
Yet I know in my heart that if I were playing all day every day, and gigging
every night I'd be alot sharper and easier with stuff, and probably have
done several albums worth of material (or maybe Im kidding myself!). I play
most days, sometimes to entertain, somtimes to learn new concepts, but
ultimately I am part timing it. I love the solo guitar - meaning I can fit a
schedule around all my other commitments, and the duo thing with a vocalist.
I have a decent grasp of the concepts involved. We are currently recording,
and I let you know when its done. Basically my day job has afforded me the
chance to buy a nice guitar, go to events such as Wrexham (where I met said
Bruno) and actually to work with music all the time.
Just a quick overview of my next month. Recording in a couple of weeks with
bass player from the band spin doctors who are on tour here in the UK. We
are going to have him come in and play on a track that we wrote for the
djembe project, then the weekends are taken with training by Bosco
Dolivera - the first samba musician to set up outside Brazil. So really I
cant say I got a day job that merely pays the bills so that I can attend to
my first love of music in the evenings. Essentially I get to do it all the
time!!!
What is happening now is that we're tyring to focus everything down to see
what we really want and where we COULD be, and what we'd need to get there.
I think as Paul pointed out in his posting - most people in life be they
musicians or not tend to just do things, not drifting aimlessly as such, but
without CLEAR aims I guess is the best way of putting it. At some point we
all get to that stage where we've been successful to a degree and then
almost wonder where to go to next. I think what Paul was talking about in
his last paragraph is the start of making such clear aims. Starting with
what he didnt want to end up happening. Often its a case of wrestling with
the many options available, and actually finding what one REALLY wants, as
opposed to what one THINKS they should want.
I was really lucky in that I was quite open to seeing what would happen, and
its only really now I have the chance to review and decide the next path
forward. Often if you check any of the guitar heroes, they;ve made decisions
based on their life and being open to it. Tuck and Patti didnt ever start
out to be a duo, Martin Taylor developed a solo style after many years of
playing etc etc. So really its a case of seeing over time what you really
want and then having the courage to actually do it. Paul I think is getting
towards that stage and I think he will be liberated in time!
--------
did you ever undergo a change in priorities in your musical life? how
many times?
the kind of thing I'm thinking about is our own jimmy bruno worked in
vegas for years and years, but moved back to philly to be a jazz
guitarist and worked all kinds of gigs. that must have been a major
life decision for jimmy and his family, and I'd like to hear about what
caused it, how long it took before he did it, etc. I want to hear about
life decisions that you all have made, how they ended up, and what you
think about those decisions now.
a lot of us that didn't start playing jazz right away had a point
where we decided to focus on jazz (or maybe some other type of music),
maybe at the expense of a lot of things. what was that point for you?
what did you have to give up? looking back, how do you feel about that
decision?
some of us probably decided that we would need to do something to make
a living other than perform, like teach guitar or program computers or
fly planes. if this applies to you, tell us about it? did you fall into
your day job or was there a point where you decided to get a day gig,
and how did you feel about that? was it a feeling of defeat,
liberating, or both?
I am asking these questions because I spend a lot of time practicing,
composing and playing music. up until now I have always just sort of
done these things without really thinking a lot about why I am doing
them or how I am choosing to spend my time. I don't want to look back
in 20 years and realize that although I know 20 million standards, I
wish I had spent more time composing and performing my own music. so I
am thinking about these things now in an effort to be honest with
myself and determine where exactly my priorities are in music, since
I'm not getting any younger.
anyways, thanks for your thoughts/stories.
--paulPost a follow-up to this message
Kurt Shapiro
O'Connor tests too. Never did though.
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.net> wrote in message
news:adam-BF48BB.1...@individual.net...
Kurt Shapiro
but because you have to. I wish I'd realized sooner that I had to.
noisyjazzman
> There's a saying about how you should go into music not because you want to,
> but because you have to. I wish I'd realized sooner that I had to.
Well, Clifford Brown had a total of about 10 years on the trumpet.
You could start at 70 and still have 10 years left in which to do your
necessary work. A lot can be done in a short time, given appropriate
circumstances, talent, motivation, understanding of what you need to do,
etc.
Mac
before he died. He had no choice, the music had to find a way out of
him. Lot's of good posts on this thread. Thanks.
Gerry
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
> There's a saying about how you should go into music not because you want to,
> but because you have to. I wish I'd realized sooner that I had to.
I don't know about the "go into music" part. You're compelled to play
or not. I'm fond of saying that music is not something I "do", it's
more about who I am.
--
The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who
are undecided.
-- Casey Stengel