Gene Bertoncini

Mark Kleinhaut

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Jun 17, 2003, 3:28:26 PM6/17/03

to

I was in NYC this past weekend and enjoyed a fine dose of jazz guitar, amongst
other things (like morrocan food, cuban food, asian food as well as NY staples
like knishes, bagles and pizza.

One of the highlights was sitting 8 feet in front of Gene Bertoncini as he
performed a solo set at La Madeliene Cafe on 43rd st. Gene is a solo guitar
master and not once did I wish to hear another instrument join in with him,
what he was doing was that complete sounding. Gene was also very friendly
and we exchanged phone numbers so that I could see about getting him a gig
up in Portland ME sometime in the future.

I also went to see Al Dimiola who put on a great set with his quartet of
piano, percussion and drummer (no bass).

I also got to visit with NYC guitarist Bruce Saunders at his home in Brooklyn.
Most of you never heard of Bruce, but should- he's a monster player in the
Rosenwinkle/Monder vien of guitardom, though his voice is definitely his
own.

Finally, I went to see and sit in with RMMGJ pen pal Dan Adler at his weekly
Cafe Tagine gig. I had a great time playing with him and singer Daniella
(don't know her last name but she is from Croatia- so it must be something
exotic). Dan also joined up with me and Erika (my wife) the night before
to catch a set of Eric Alexander playing at Smoke. Eric wasn't bad (for
a sax player) but the weekend for me was, not surprisingly, all about guitar.

Some relevent links:
http://www.genebertoncini.com
http://www.brucesaunders.com
http://www.danadler.com
http://www.fantasyjazz.com/html/alexanderebio.html

http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Mark.html

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Tom Lippincott

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Jun 17, 2003, 4:50:07 PM6/17/03

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>
>I also got to visit with NYC guitarist Bruce Saunders at his home in
>Brooklyn.
>Most of you never heard of Bruce, but should- he's a monster player in the
>Rosenwinkle/Monder vien of guitardom, though his voice is definitely his
>own.

Mark; how do you know Bruce? He was at North Texas for a bit when I was there,
and though we didn't really know each other back then I've since gotten to know
him a little bit. In fact, a couple of years ago when I was contemplating
moving to NY, he was more or less the one who talked me out of it. He's a
pretty quiet, understated guy and, knowing I have the same type of
personality, he said I'm probably better off staying where I am, as he thinks
you have to really be an aggressive self promoter to "advance through the
ranks" in the jazz mecca. Is he still teaching at Berklee? That's gotta be
one heck of a commute, though I know there are several people who do that.

Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm

Mark Kleinhaut

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Jun 17, 2003, 4:59:04 PM6/17/03

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I've known Bruce a couple of years now. We were introduced by another picker,
Tony Gaboury, who knows Bruce from Berkley where they both teach. I've known
Tony a long time, local boys and all.

It doesn't surprise be Bruce would talk you or anyone out of moving to NYC.
He's really negative about the whole scene, not the players, but that fact
that there is no place for all these great players to play. And that there
are new young players showing up in town every day and doing nothing with
it except playing in living rooms. Also, he said the audiences used to be
merely apathetic, but are now outright hostile- he feels many people openly
hate jazz.

So much for the jazz mecca, right? Actually, from what I could see this
past weekend, there were lots of people out and around digging jazz, so personally
I'm not buying that everthing is so dark.

http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Mark.html

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paul

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Jun 17, 2003, 5:13:23 PM6/17/03

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On 17 Jun 2003 20:50:07 GMT, tomli...@aol.comnospam (Tom Lippincott)
wrote:

>>
>>I also got to visit with NYC guitarist Bruce Saunders at his home in
>>Brooklyn.
>>Most of you never heard of Bruce, but should- he's a monster player in the
>>Rosenwinkle/Monder vien of guitardom, though his voice is definitely his
>>own.
>
>Mark; how do you know Bruce?

I've talked a lot with bruce as well, when I first moved to the city.
he is an extremely good player, but he is a very negative cat when it
comes to talking about the jazz scene. IMHO he is somewhat overly
negative, but he is otherwise a nice guy and a monster player indeed.

--paul

paul

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Jun 17, 2003, 5:15:30 PM6/17/03

to

On 17 Jun 2003 15:59:04 -0500, "Mark Kleinhaut"
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>So much for the jazz mecca, right? Actually, from what I could see this
>past weekend, there were lots of people out and around digging jazz, so personally
>I'm not buying that everthing is so dark.
>

I just posted in the other thread about this. bruce is a great player,
but way too negative about the jazz scene in nyc. I think there is a
wonderful scene, albeit not enough work to really support all the
great musicians. that's not necessarily a flaw though, since it can be
true of anywhere in the world.

--paul

Mark Kleinhaut

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Jun 17, 2003, 10:13:52 PM6/17/03

to

Well, sometimes people just feel one way or another about these things, and
while Bruce is still a super nice cat, I can feel his frustration when other
guys are getting "the love", even though he's ten times the player.

Now, NYC has lots of great jazz musicians living and working there, but in
my opinion, Bruce is one of the best ones that nobody knows about. It's
not hard to imagine that that gets old.

Tom Lippincott

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Jun 18, 2003, 2:10:24 AM6/18/03

to

>I've talked a lot with bruce as well, when I first moved to the city.
>he is an extremely good player, but he is a very negative cat when it
>comes to talking about the jazz scene. IMHO he is somewhat overly
>negative, but he is otherwise a nice guy and a monster player indeed.
>
>
>--paul
>

I know Bruce can be a bit of a glass half empty type guy, but in my case I
think there was something valid in his advice. I am definitely not a go getter
or much of a self promoter, and I think a place like NY would probably eat me
for lunch. Pete McCann, another Rosenwinkel/Monder type player who deserves
wider recognition (www.petemccann.com - Bruce designed his site too), told me
that when he first moved to NY Bruce met him at the bus station. There was
wind blowing a bunch of papers around and, at this point in the story Pete says
in his best Bruce Saunders voice "welcome to New York; how do you like the
cyclone garbage?"

Dan Adler

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Jun 18, 2003, 10:14:25 AM6/18/03

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"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3eef8...@127.0.0.1>...

> So much for the jazz mecca, right? Actually, from what I could see this
> past weekend, there were lots of people out and around digging jazz, so personally
> I'm not buying that everthing is so dark.
>

Mark,

It was great to have you in NY, and as usual, I learned a lot from
playing with you. Come sit in any time (any time you feel like a 6
hour drive, that is).

As for NY, I think it's simple supply and demand. When you have Eric
Alexander, Aaron Goldberg, George Coleman w/Mike Stern, Cedar Walton,
Mark Turner and a few other international giants playing all over town
on one evening, it's impossible to expect a huge turnout at some
unknown talent's gig. Now that small's closed, that's another 20 or so
great musicians who are established (like Sam Yahel and Kurt
Rosenwinkel himself) who are out of a regular gig. Some moved accross
the street to FatCat, but that's less frequent and not two separate
gigs a night.

Now, the few places that ARE booking unknown talent are now booking
for late fall and early winter simply because there are so many great
players with their own CD and with some critic who wrote that they are
the next big thing.

The flip side is that, in my experience, the musicians themselves are
not cut-throat. People are extremely gracious and willing to give you
a break if you are good, and indeed, the path to "success" in NY is
being a great sideman and getting called by other leaders a lot. There
are no politics involved in that. It's plain merit based, and the
great players do rise to the top very quickly. The bar is very high
though, and as a sideman you are expected to be able to play ANYTHING
on sight and at super speed.

So, NY is indeed tough, but you know the drill, if you can make it
there...

-Dan
http://danadler.com

Mark Kleinhaut

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Jun 18, 2003, 11:49:05 AM6/18/03

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d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote:
>Mark,
>
>It was great to have you in NY, and as usual, I learned a lot from
>playing with you. Come sit in any time (any time you feel like a 6
>hour drive, that is).
>

Hey Dan, did the minidisc you were running come out ok? I wouldn't mind hearing
a little of it sometime.

>As for NY, I think it's simple supply and demand. When you have Eric
>Alexander, Aaron Goldberg, George Coleman w/Mike Stern, Cedar Walton,
>Mark Turner and a few other international giants playing all over town
>on one evening, it's impossible to expect a huge turnout at some
>unknown talent's gig. Now that small's closed, that's another 20 or so
>great musicians who are established (like Sam Yahel and Kurt
>Rosenwinkel himself) who are out of a regular gig. Some moved accross
>the street to FatCat, but that's less frequent and not two separate
>gigs a night.
>
>Now, the few places that ARE booking unknown talent are now booking
>for late fall and early winter simply because there are so many great
>players with their own CD and with some critic who wrote that they are
>the next big thing.
>
>The flip side is that, in my experience, the musicians themselves are
>not cut-throat. People are extremely gracious and willing to give you
>a break if you are good, and indeed, the path to "success" in NY is
>being a great sideman and getting called by other leaders a lot. There
>are no politics involved in that. It's plain merit based, and the
>great players do rise to the top very quickly. The bar is very high
>though, and as a sideman you are expected to be able to play ANYTHING
>on sight and at super speed.
>
>So, NY is indeed tough, but you know the drill, if you can make it
>there...
>

This all sounds like truth you speak (he said happily swimming laps in his
small little pond:::)))))

markkl...@hotmail.com

Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html

"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html

"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html

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kuboken

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Jun 18, 2003, 1:28:33 PM6/18/03

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d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote in message

> The flip side is that, in my experience, the musicians themselves are
> not cut-throat. People are extremely gracious and willing to give you
> a break if you are good, and indeed, the path to "success" in NY is
> being a great sideman and getting called by other leaders a lot. There
> are no politics involved in that. It's plain merit based, and the
> great players do rise to the top very quickly. The bar is very high
> though, and as a sideman you are expected to be able to play ANYTHING
> on sight and at super speed.

That's a good point about being a sideman. I was talking to someone
once and we pointed out how many of the big sellers today are the ones
that played with Miles (Scofield, Liebman, Stern, Holland, Jarrett,
Corea etc...). It's almost as if having played with Miles gave you
tenure as a top tier player.

Even if not with Miles, a lot of great players have toured/mentored
with some of the greats. I was suprised that even Brad Shepik (who is
nowhere near straight-ahead jazz) toured with Paul Motian for 5 years
(with Rosenwinkel) (plus he tours extensively with Dave Douglas who
tours extensively with John Zorn; this is where the contacts for
gigs/recordings and credibility gets established, I think).

Some of the struggling musicians I know seem to be the ones that come
to NYC with their own music, self-produced CD, their own band and
trying to get gigs. These are the ones that seem (at least the ones
I've met) to be the most frustrated.

Having a track record of playing/touring with a top-tier group seems
to really be a huge advantage if not a necessity of making it...

Anyway, just an observation... not fact...

Ken

Geordie F.O. Kelly

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Jun 18, 2003, 2:09:15 PM6/18/03

to

> (don't know her last name but she is from Croatia- so it must be something
> exotic).

Where in Croatia? That is one of my most favorite countries to visit. I
especially enjoy Old Town Dubrovnik, though Split is a close second in the
summer months.
--
Geordie F.O. Kelly
Guitarist/Jazz Improvisation Instructor
Armed Forces School of Music
http://heritageguitar.com/artists/

"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:3eef6...@Usenet.com...

Mark Kleinhaut

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Jun 18, 2003, 2:38:35 PM6/18/03

to

kubo...@yahoo.com (kuboken) wrote:
>That's a good point about being a sideman. I was talking to someone
>once and we pointed out how many of the big sellers today are the ones
>that played with Miles (Scofield, Liebman, Stern, Holland, Jarrett,
>Corea etc...). It's almost as if having played with Miles gave you
>tenure as a top tier player.
>
>Even if not with Miles, a lot of great players have toured/mentored
>with some of the greats. I was suprised that even Brad Shepik (who is
>nowhere near straight-ahead jazz) toured with Paul Motian for 5 years
>(with Rosenwinkel) (plus he tours extensively with Dave Douglas who
>tours extensively with John Zorn; this is where the contacts for
>gigs/recordings and credibility gets established, I think).
>
>Some of the struggling musicians I know seem to be the ones that come
>to NYC with their own music, self-produced CD, their own band and
>trying to get gigs. These are the ones that seem (at least the ones
>I've met) to be the most frustrated.
>
>Having a track record of playing/touring with a top-tier group seems
>to really be a huge advantage if not a necessity of making it...
>
>Anyway, just an observation... not fact...
>
>Ken

The opportunity to apprentice in a master's working group is unquestionably
a fast track to becoming a better player and opening doors to other opportunities.
The number of working bands has diminished greatly over the years and these
opportunities hare very hard to come by. If you don't live in NYC or a large
urban center it's virtually impossible.

It's not the only way, however, and as times chance new models and paths
will emerge. I'm optimistic.

markkl...@hotmail.com

Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html

"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html

"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html

Tom Lippincott

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Jun 18, 2003, 5:36:06 PM6/18/03

to

>>Some of the struggling musicians I know seem to be the ones that come
>>to NYC with their own music, self-produced CD, their own band and
>>trying to get gigs. These are the ones that seem (at least the ones
>>I've met) to be the most frustrated.
>>

I think that was part of the idea of Bruce's advice to me; that it's probably
just as easy to promote your own group, CD, ect. from any location as New York
(probably easier in other places), and in the mean time you don't have to pay
$2000 a month to live in a closet.

>>Having a track record of playing/touring with a top-tier group seems
>>to really be a huge advantage if not a necessity of making it...
>>
>>Anyway, just an observation... not fact...
>>
>>Ken
>
>The opportunity to apprentice in a master's working group is unquestionably
>a fast track to becoming a better player and opening doors to other
>opportunities.
> The number of working bands has diminished greatly over the years and these
>opportunities hare very hard to come by. If you don't live in NYC or a large
>urban center it's virtually impossible.
>
>It's not the only way, however, and as times chance new models and paths
>will emerge. I'm optimistic.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>markkl...@hotmail.com

I hope that things change for the better too. I agree that moving to NY in
hopes of landing a sideman gig with a major artist is a bit like trying to win
the lottery these days. I think that, as well as the opportunity to be around
and hear lots of the top musicians on a daily basis, are about the only valid
reasons for moving there as a jazz musician.

Rick Del Savio

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Jun 18, 2003, 6:16:07 PM6/18/03

to

Hi. It may get worse real soon. There's one million rent-controlled
apartments
that may lose that status any day now. Those'll go for what the market
will bear.
$3000-4000 a month.(?) I think that coming to NYC to make it in any
field is a young persons game. Almost anywhere else in the US that rent
figure is a mortgage payment, and more. I'm grateful that we're paying
under a $1000 for a two bedroom apt. right on the city line,
rent-stabilized, 30 minutes from midtown. Soon this place, NYC, will
become a gated community. (South of 96th St. Although that too is
changing) I gotta hand it to anyone who comes here to give it a shot.

--
Jazz Guitarist/Educator
Check out lessons and original music @
http://www.rickdelsavio.com

Kevin Van Sant

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Jun 18, 2003, 6:22:46 PM6/18/03

to

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 22:16:07 GMT, Rick Del Savio
<rain...@optonline.net> wrote in message
<3EF0E282...@optonline.net> :

>Hi. It may get worse real soon. There's one million rent-controlled
>apartments
>that may lose that status any day now. Those'll go for what the market
>will bear.
>$3000-4000 a month.(?) I think that coming to NYC to make it in any
>field is a young persons game. Almost anywhere else in the US that rent
>figure is a mortgage payment, and more.

Shit, my mortgage is only $500/mo !

> I'm grateful that we're paying
>under a $1000 for a two bedroom apt. right on the city line,
>rent-stabilized, 30 minutes from midtown.

sounds like you've got a great NYC deal Rick.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar

http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.

Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm

Rick Del Savio

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Jun 18, 2003, 7:01:11 PM6/18/03

to

Kevin, we're really lucky. In this neighborhood if it's not epta
housing, rent-controlled, this apt. would be $1500-1700!. I know. I have
friends, students
etc that live in these places. There are upsides of course to living
here. Where else can one walk into a place, no cover, and see Jack
Wilkins playing solo?
Or Gene Bertoncini? And so on. Plus, everything being more expensive
here I can charge $40 for a 1/2 hour, $50 for 45 minutes. Most of my
income is from teaching private students. The rent laws, (What rent
laws!?!) have driven out so many cool little clubs that once had live
music, Jazz, Rock, The lease expires and they can raise it to whatever
they like. So, here comes another Benetton (I hope I mispelled it)
Starbucks, Tower Records, ugh! Here's an example and then I'm done with
my Rent Rant; I studied briefly with a famous Jazz guitarist. He lived
on E60th st. He was paying $395 a month for a parking space. That was 12

--

Dan Adler

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Jun 18, 2003, 10:12:48 PM6/18/03

to

"Geordie F.O. Kelly" <jazzg...@cox.net> wrote in message news:<jV1Ia.10600$%l.2995@lakeread03>...

> > (don't know her last name but she is from Croatia- so it must be something
> > exotic).
>
> Where in Croatia? That is one of my most favorite countries to visit. I
> especially enjoy Old Town Dubrovnik, though Split is a close second in the
> summer months.

You can get more details on Daniella's web site: http://lella.iuma.com

-Dan
http://danadler.com

Tom Lippincott

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Jun 19, 2003, 3:11:04 AM6/19/03

to

>Here's an example and then I'm done with
>my Rent Rant; I studied briefly with a famous Jazz guitarist. He lived
>on E60th st. He was paying $395 a month for a parking space. That was 12
>years ago. Rick :^S

wow, you took guitar lessons in a parking space? (heh)

unread,

Jun 20, 2003, 1:23:19 PM6/20/03

to

"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I just found this link to purchase Bruce's new CD. If anyone ever takes
my
>recommendations for anything, trust me and buy Bruce's new CD "Fragment"...it's
>as beautiful a record as anything I've ever heard:
>
>http://mmpmoo.com/cd/bruce_saunders/
>
>

What, no takers!! not one!! C'mon guys, Bruce Saunders is the bomb and this
album is killer.....seriously.

tomw

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Jun 20, 2003, 1:53:53 PM6/20/03

to

In article <3ef34...@127.0.0.1>, markkl...@hotmail.com says...

>
> "Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >I just found this link to purchase Bruce's new CD. If anyone ever takes
> my
> >recommendations for anything, trust me and buy Bruce's new CD "Fragment"...it's
> >as beautiful a record as anything I've ever heard:
> >
> >http://mmpmoo.com/cd/bruce_saunders/
> >
> >
>
> What, no takers!! not one!! C'mon guys, Bruce Saunders is the bomb and this
> album is killer.....seriously.
>
>

Hey, hey -- easy now, big fella! I listened, he sounded really good. I
particularly enjoyed "fragment". I am, however, on a self-imposed cd-
buying moratorium.

--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/

Mark Kleinhaut

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Jun 20, 2003, 2:05:23 PM6/20/03

to

Tom, thanks for checking him out. I hope money will soon floweth forth for
you.

tomw

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Jun 20, 2003, 2:55:23 PM6/20/03

to

In article <3ef34...@127.0.0.1>, markkl...@hotmail.com says...
>

>

> Tom, thanks for checking him out. I hope money will soon floweth forth for
> you.
>

Your sentiments are greatly appreciated, boss, but it's not the money
flowing towards me that's the problem -- it's the money flowing from me.
At any rate, thanks for the pointers towards Bruce; from the clips it
sounds like he's playing in a bag that I particularly enjoy.

unread,

Jun 23, 2003, 3:36:18 PM6/23/03

to

Amen to that, my bretheren!

--
Bill Francis
Fusion Guitar and Keyboards
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/8/billfrancismusic.htm

"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message

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