Jimi Hendrix Definitely had Jazz Influences
Paul
tune at all. Even Hendrix himself said that he didn't
want to play straight Blues.
Check out his beautiful A#13add9 chord at 1:18
during "Villanova Junction" at Woodstock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DpmTQoUNdw
Again, it's blues based, as are many, many jazz
tunes, but it's hardly simple pentatonic blues. In fact,
he goes to a flatted 6th chord as well, which is not a
simple 1-4-5. Also notice the Wes Montgomery octave
work.
Hendrix's first album, Are You Experienced, has
a song called, "Third Stone from the Sun." It's
considered one of the earliest examples of jazz fusion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUg7xl4kKUw
Mitch Mitchell's jazz drumming influences are obvious,
and once again, you can hear Wes' octave influence.
Miles Davis has stated that he and Hendrix influenced
each other (comparing his improvisational skills with those
of John Coltrane), and the fusion results are obvious on Bitches
Brew. Stanley Jordan has said that Hendrix was overlapping
into Jazz, and Hendrix liked the tone and sound of Kenny Burrell.
Other Hendrix tunes that are anything but straight
Blues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGqPzrNypzw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmRoGtiJp_E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF4-r2MpRMs&feature=related
andy-uk
Mccoy Tyner = European classical improv...
Ravi Shankar = skiffle
SRV = Third Viennese school ramifications.
also Chet Atkins used jazz chords thus country music is also jazz..
Maj6th
influenced by Gainsborough :)
Maj6th
"Paul" <quill...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c976580-f054-4972...@j29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Maj6th
to me.
Maj6th
"andy-uk" <andy.u...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bf49aba2-bb41-4b67...@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
zencat
> I'm not sure I know what a "jazz chord" is, could someone please explain it
> to me.
>
> Maj6th
Why, it's a chord that Hendrix played! Weren't you listening? ;)
JNugent
> On Nov 12, 8:50 am, "Maj6th"<maj...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure I know what a "jazz chord" is, could someone please explain it
>> to me.
> Why, it's a chord that Hendrix played! Weren't you listening? ;)
It's a Stevie Wonder song, isn't it?
# "A jazz chord... to say...". #
Greger Hoel
<jenni...@fastmail.fm>:
> It's a Stevie Wonder song, isn't it?
>
> # "A jazz chord... to say...". #
That's not a song; that's a crime.
--
Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
Bryce
I saw Hendrix on the David Suskind show, I think it was 1968 maybe?
David said to him:" so, Jimmy, you're the greatest guitarist on Earth
I hear." And Hendrix replied: "No. I'm the greatest guitarist sitting
in this chair right now." I'll always love Hendrix for saying that.
He was teaching us all humility. Plus he knew that jazz players and
classical players could do amazing things with the guitar.
Bryce
Tim McNamara
also had R&B influences, gospel influences, folk influences, rock
influences, blues influences.
--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.
andy-uk
> I'm not sure I know what a "jazz chord" is, could someone please explain it
> to me.
>
A jazz chord is very similar to a tritone sub except with more
meaningless adjectives.
jimmybruno
Not in reply to anyone in particular but i think the thread is
ridiculous. It is my bleif that Imi couldn't even spell 'JAZZ"
TD
> I'm not sure I know what a "jazz chord" is, could someone please explain it
> to me.
>
> Maj6th
>
>
> news:bf49aba2-bb41-4b67...@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hendrix = jazz
>
> > Mccoy Tyner = European classical improv...
>
> > Ravi Shankar = skiffle
>
> > SRV = Third Viennese school ramifications.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Some one's stab at polarizing with a cowboy chord.
-TD
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well Bryce, but not as amazing as he did. Lets face it, burning,
humping, morphing into a machine gun; not to mention simulating
cunnilingus were things not less than amazing.
-TD
Bob Russell
Ummmm... Jimmy... you might not want to get into the spelling
thing... :-)
Travis
@o11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, ji...@jimmybruno.com says...
et's mie bleif that yuo is ah mush beter speler then Imi, ure tieping is
beter tu!
Maj6th
Maj6th
"Bob Russell" <bobru...@ec.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0f382e7c-d75d-4812...@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
Maj6th
Maj6th
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-C18997....@news-1.mpls.iphouse.net...
MWC
seen them, Vic Juris and Sheryl Bailey have done shows together based
on Hendrix material: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-e_xJJLgN0
Mike
eric s
don't forget how young jimi was when he died. he did not hear jazz
harmony any more than santana did, but he had a beautiful beautiful
approach to the instrument and at his best was an incredibly skilful
electric guitar player who could do stuff that no one else had done.
Garcia admitted that he was too lazy to learn how to play jazz, but he
tried imitating it badly sometimes with grisman. hendrix never
imitated anyone, he just played his ass off.
e
Bg
Exaclty, you eat me to it :-)
Bg
Bryce
LOL !! Good one.
Claus Rogge
> Literally, laughing out loud....................
YEAH me too XD
--
New CD "Breaking Habits"
http://www.cdbaby.com/AlbumDetails.aspx?AlbumID=clausrogge
Music for free:
http://tinyurl.com/73efjm
TD
Great White Buffalo
I've always thought of Carlos Montoya as the jazz version of Andreas
Segovia :)
Joey Goldstein
I've always thought of Hendrix as having been influenced by Coltrane's
modal stuff and his free stuff.
I'm not really basing that on any musicological facts, just on my sense
of the avant-garde influences of the times in that era.
I think that Hendrix influenced jazz more than he was influenced by jazz.
Hendrix influenced everybody in music.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Bryce
Excellent point. The rock improvisation genre kind of boosted the jazz
fusion era bringing electronics into the picture more and opening the
audiences to more improvisation at concerts perhaps. MIles Davis seems
to have jumped on that band wagon after being one of the greatest bop
players on the planet. His huge sun glasses and sparkle garb come to
mind; much like Hendrix's garb. Hmm.. very impressive observation
you've made JG.
sheetsofsound
> I've always thought of Hendrix as having been influenced by Coltrane's
> modal stuff and his free stuff.
> I'm not really basing that on any musicological facts, just on my sense
> of the avant-garde influences of the times in that era.
>
> I think that Hendrix influenced jazz more than he was influenced by jazz.
> Hendrix influenced everybody in music.
agreed.
rpjazzguitar
According to Wiki, one of the tunes on this album was a Gil Evans
reworking of the Wind Cries Mary. It says that he met several times
with Hendrix.
Hendrix was King Curtis' guitar player before that -- so he probably
knew something about classic R&B with jazz influences.
Paul
> modal stuff and his free stuff.
> I'm not really basing that on any musicological facts, just on my sense
> of the avant-garde influences of the times in that era.
>
> I think that Hendrix influenced jazz more than he was influenced by jazz.
> Hendrix influenced everybody in music.
>
Agreed.
I like the way he breaks off from pure Blues, into a
Mixolydian
scale, at around 9:44 or so. It really makes this longer version
of Voodoo Child quite interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXqxXrjoOf0&feature=related
drthoma...@gmail.com
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filles_de_Kilimanjaro--- Miles Davis
>
> According to Wiki, one of the tunes on this album was a Gil Evans
> reworking of the Wind Cries Mary. It says that he met several times
> with Hendrix.
>
> Hendrix was King Curtis' guitar player before that -- so he probably
> knew something about classic R&B with jazz influences.
Gil Evans did a whole album of Hendrix tunes. I think I heard
somewhere that he wanted to have Hendrix play on it.
Tim McNamara
<95a7b1c6-e289-45a2...@i32g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Bryce <bsuth...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Nov 14, 10:48 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > I've always thought of Hendrix as having been influenced by
> > Coltrane's modal stuff and his free stuff. I'm not really basing
> > that on any musicological facts, just on my sense of the
> > avant-garde influences of the times in that era.
> >
> > I think that Hendrix influenced jazz more than he was influenced by
> > jazz. Hendrix influenced everybody in music.
>
> > I think that Hendrix influenced jazz more than he was influenced by
> > jazz. Hendrix influenced everybody in music.
> >
>
> Excellent point. The rock improvisation genre kind of boosted the
> jazz fusion era bringing electronics into the picture more and
> opening the audiences to more improvisation at concerts perhaps.
> MIles Davis seems to have jumped on that band wagon after being one
> of the greatest bop players on the planet. His huge sun glasses and
> sparkle garb come to mind; much like Hendrix's garb. Hmm.. very
> impressive observation you've made JG.
I just finished Miles's autobiography which, like many such books was
probably a mixture of hard truth, skewed perspective and outright lies.
But he did talk about being influenced by Hendrix's music and also of
hanging out with Hendrix and showing him jazz stuff. He said Hendrix
had good ears and was quick on the uptake but had no technical
vocabulary for music.
rpjazzguitar
mostly playing nylon.
We played a tune with an E7+9 and the group spontaneously starting
playing the Hendrix lick. Everybody, including the Brazilian teacher.
jimmybruno
Jeez, I hardly think so. are you all deaf. Just because a guy uses
a +9 chord doesn't make his music jazz influenced
eric s
and there is a tune on filles de kilimenjaro with three chromatically
ascending triads. based on that, some wiseass with cloth ears claimed
it is based on "wind cries mary." The rest of the tune is so deep and
complicated that it just makes the idea silly.
e
TD
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filles_de_Kilimanjaro--- Miles Davis
>
> According to Wiki, one of the tunes on this album was a Gil Evans
> reworking of the Wind Cries Mary. It says that he met several times
> with Hendrix.
>
> Hendrix was King Curtis' guitar player before that -- so he probably
> knew something about classic R&B with jazz influences.
His real bag was R&B. He was also a good blues player and obviously a
very successful rock songwriter. He was not influenced by jazz.
Although, Mitch Mitchell was. Certainly, Noel Redding wasn't. And you
can hear it more in certain tunes like, 'I just wanna talk to you' and
'Third Stone', but Butterfield and Bloomfield were really the guys
showing blues with jazz influence long before that. They were line
players; Hendrix was not at all. Where does anyone hear Hendrix lines
that remotely show jazz influence? Some one might come up with that
little near-swinging lick and almost hip wah wah comping in Just Wanna
talk, but I think a parakeet would be able to play as well having
Mitch's feel on that tune. Yet, playing two ,out of the rock and blues
norm, voicings, #9 and min7sus, if I recall correctly, don't make an
airplane out of a ham sandwich. I do think he began becoming
interested in jazz before the drugs and debauchery took hold of him
coupled with jumping on the anti-Vietnam thing (which may be the real
reason for his untimely death; lets not overlook the fact that all the
very famous anti-nam rockers died of overdoses around the same time).
As for Miles? He was a very smart mofo. He turned his scene into a
big money maker after getting fed up with all the rockers (who knew
little more than three chords and some Albert King licks, but they
sang well...) making fortunes. Miles was the heaviest jazz influence
in rock, which opened the door for Chick, Keith and Herbie. I do
understand that fusion heads here will disagree with me and come on
with their favorites, but lets not forget, McLaughlin did it via
Miles. Coryell did it via Burton. DiMeola did it via Chick. And these
guys were playing *lines*, whether you dug 'em or not. Jimi was great
at HIS thing, but he wasn't a line player. He had a great ear for
bending notes, writing tunes, playing very good rock rhythm guitar
(compared with his Brit contemporaries, due to that heavy R&B
"experience") plus having an alluring voice and a much naughtier
sexual version of Elvis' gyration live scene.
-TD
rpjazzguitar
The first time I ever heard about a merging of jazz and rock, it was
about Larry Coryell. It may have been an article in Cue magazine. My
recollection is that the writer thought Coryell was the first guy who
could play both the rock music of the mid 60's and straight jazz - and
combine them. (Barney Kessel and others had played rock recording
dates well before, of course).
A couple years later, I recall hearing Blood Sweat and Tears, just
after David Clayton Thomas joined. No question about jazz influence
there.
In fact, come to think of it, the Blues Project's Flute Thing in 1966
was pretty jazzy.
Undoubtably, there are earlier examples, maybe Jr. Walker or ??
The Doors claim that they were imitating Coltrane on the solo section
of Light My Fire. John Densmore said that he thought of Break On
Through as a Bossa Nova beat.
rpjazzguitar
> His real bag was R&B. He was also a good blues player and obviously a
> very successful rock songwriter. He was not influenced by jazz.
I'll admit that I can't tell where horn-soul ends and jazz begins.
But, King Curtis didn't play his solo on this from listening to Buddy
Holly or Del Shannon or the Beatles only
TD
I spoke only of Jimi.
-TD
Great White Buffalo
wherein they asked questions as if he were alive. they even used an
aged pic of what he could look like today had he lived.
anyway, "Jimis" responses indicated clearly that if he was alive
today, he'd most likely be playing jazz or jazz-influenced music.
The way they did the "interview" was to project forward fromthe time
of jimi's death in an effort to ascertain when he would be doing today
musicaally speakiong. they drew on Jimi's previous quotes, interviews,
and music to conclude they he'd liekly be playing jazz.
So there! :)
TD
All true ( I was also in my teens and well into playing
professionally) and there were many more less knowns. The ones you
mentioned were essentially commercial, outside of the short lived
Blues Project. Danny Kalb was no jazz player. He was studying with
Hall the same time I was, so he was interested in jazz. Miles had the
greatest impact on the opening up playing scene, in my view.. But the
topic is Hendrix in relation to jazz.
-TD
rpjazzguitar
Being a NYC guitar player in a horn band -- he must have come in
contact with it. But, I heard him back then (as Jimmy James and the
Blue Flames) and it was pure rock.
I think it's pretty clear that he had an influence on jazz -- Gil
Evans doing an album of your tunes has to count for something.
rpjazzguitar
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know, I've got some topic drift here.
I think it was the bassist/flutist that was responsible for Flute
Thing.
I also recall Steve Katz sounding a little jazzy at the time.
sheetsofsound
his music was definitely influenced by jazz. Nothing before or after
had the kinds of chordal movements he had going on. Not saying he was
a jazz guitarist but he pulled from lots of influences, jazz being one
of them.
TD
He had some influence on jazz, yes. Jazz had little or no influence on
him (if it did, it was in infancy or cut short by the drugs). Lets not
forget the hundreds of tin pan alley showtunes having influences on
jazz, not to mention the Beatles. And Jimi was good at writing, but he
was no Irving or Jerome or George.
-TD
sheetsofsound
> On Nov 14, 2:57 pm, rpjazzguitar <rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > According to Wiki, one of the tunes on this album was a Gil Evans
> > reworking of the Wind Cries Mary. It says that he met several times
> > with Hendrix.
>
> > Hendrix was King Curtis' guitar player before that -- so he probably
> > knew something about classic R&B with jazz influences.
>
> His real bag was R&B. He was also a good blues player and obviously a
> very successful rock songwriter. He was not influenced by jazz.
He was definitely influenced by Wes and you can hear it in the octave
stuff that was pretty obviously an influence. Stuff like 3rd stone
from the sun was influenced by Coltrane's Ascension though obviously
jimi was harmonically very basic. Still, it was an influence and Jimi
liked Miles and Trane and other jazz musicians so it's pretty clear
the influence was there.
tom walls
Me three. You know the dumbest thing about this decidedly inane
conversation(apart from the fact that Jimi would never in a million
years have claimed to be a jazz guitarist)? We've already had this
moronic conversation several times in the past.
Keith Freeman
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
TD
If copping some jazz ornaments ( Dylan served with a plate of worked
out octaves) is considered jazz influenced by some, and also I had
mentioned Mitch's drumiing on 3rd Stone ( and had Jimi blown lines in
there it would have solidified your stance more) and Up From the Skies
(just wanna talk), then I can respect your debate. Although I admit,
here is one example where we can debate minus the dipshitism. For me,
he was not convincingly enough to say he was jazz influenced. I say he
may have been nodding his head in that direction before the drugs tool
over. But in the end, Voodoo Chile and Machine Gun...
-TD
Mark Cleary
issues with drugs and that does cross all circles of life. I listen to him
as a guitarist but just never find myself interested in listening to his
recordings over and over like I have with may fine players. I am not sure
what that says about me but clearly he did some things on the guitar that
others did not. These days in my limited time with listening and playing I
focus only on what I enjoy and like listening too. I just do not find his
music that compelling to listen to at all. No reflection on Jimi, I don't
listen to Andre Segovia either but given the choice I still like Segovia.
JImi just was not melodic to my ears but they are limited ears, these ears
of mine.
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Church
"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
news:timmcn-C18997....@news-1.mpls.iphouse.net...
Unless Hendrix lived in a box, of course he had jazz influences. He
also had R&B influences, gospel influences, folk influences, rock
influences, blues influences.
sheetsofsound
Those two songs were pure genius. There's more to playing great music
(jazz) than mastering chord-scales and '50s melodies. Jimi had soul
and that is currently missing from many jazz guitarists. More jazz
guitarists should do some listening to blues and get some jimi in
their soul.
Unfortunately, like everything on this newsgroups, trying to discuss
this is as fruitful as discussing the Obama and the tea party.
Joey Goldstein
Hmm.
I've always thought of Hendrix's soloing as being incredibly melodic.
Think of All Along The Watchtower for example.
Now, that may not be the type of jazz "line" that you're interesting in
TD, but he certainly played lines.
And I think that most of the rock players of that era that were involved
in extended modal improvisations had to have been influenced to some
degree by Coltrane's stuff. But again, I don't have the musicological
chops to sell that argument in any scholarly fashion.
I'm not trying to say that Jimi was "a jazz player", just that he was
influenced by certain aspects of 60's era jazz.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Perhaps, but some of us came up on jazz, blues and r&b ( not to
mention classical , flamenco and Indian). And who does and does not
have soul is an opinion. Many people think that soul is more or less
equated with string bending utilizing a few chords and more or less
lingering on the tonic. I did not mention a thing about what I think
jazz is. For example I did not say anyone had to master chord-scales.
50's melodies? Why stop there? How about 20's thu now? Or go back a
lot further. I do agree that soul is missing nowadays. But is also
missing from players outside of the jazz idiom. In addition, I never
said Jimi did not have soul. In fact, I think he had tons of soul. In
his own genre, for example, he buried Jeff Beck concerning soul ( many
here may disagree, thats cool). As far as the jazz idiom? Well that
debate has always been moot here, right? Me, I think a young player
should learn the tradition and then go off and do what he or she
wants. But some others disagree. They think that as soon as you can
play the lydian mode for 16 bars you are a jazz player. That is fine
by me. "Go on Mr. Businessman...you can't dress like me." It just
ain't me. In addition, a jazz player who can't play the blues ain't a
jazz player. But again, if a 6 turned out to be a 9. I don't mind.
-TD
drthoma...@gmail.com
Butterfield's East/West album was the first jazz-rock record. Or maybe
rock-jazz record would be a better way to describe it.
TD
> On 11/14/2010 6:43 PM, TD wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 14, 2:57 pm, rpjazzguitar<rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, he was absolutely melodic. And he did play cool lines within his
genre on recordings. They were very worked out. They were not about
spontaneous improvisation, as he played them the same way all the
time. The thing that befuddled me was in his live improvs, he never
played line playing. It was either bending into the ozone or pre-
worked out from his hit tunes. If you guys want to call him a jazz
player or "definitely" influenced by jazz, please carry on. That is
your choice. On another note about soul. At one time I thought that
the English were rather cold when it came to situations where you'd
expect a certain type of emotion to be visually displayed. I later
learned that this was never the real case. The English just tend to
keep their emotions more hidden in a reserved and dignified type way
then say, most latin peoples. Does this mean all English are cold and
heartless? Soul comes in many colors, shapes and sizes.
-TD
sheetsofsound
He played the blues better than almost any jazz guitarist playing in
that era IMO. Total command of blues. Was he a jazz guitarist? Of
course not. Nobody ever said that. But to claim he had no jazz
influence is baseless.
TD
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree.
-TD
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
To claim that he "definitely" had jazz influence ( heading of this
thread) is "baseless". Maybe thats what he needed a jazz "bass"
player. If he had jazz influence, it was minuscule at best. He used
octaves on one tune , #9 chords on a few tunes and sus chords. OK,
yea...
I dug his stuff, really. Better blues player than all the jazz
players of that era? Of course, they were not players of the primitive
blues idiom. They played jazz/blues. He may have "mastered" primitive
blues, but I never heard anything spectacular utilizing hip (ooh I
used the 'h' word) lines on turnarounds and on that tell-tale VI
chord. On jazz blues he would not make it. But he did his thing very
well. I only heard one tune btw, Red House...were there more? And if
there was a 2nd blues tune recorded, was there a 3rd tune?
Mike Bloomfield would be a better choice to argue over, in my view.
-TD
unknownguitarplayer
I dunno, Tony. Think about his vocals, not his guitar playing. He's
way deep in the pocket on "Up From the Skies"...way deeper than Rod
Stewart or any of those shmendricks are getting 45 years later with
their full frontal assault on the Great American Songbook. Think
about the vocal phrasing on "Manic Depression" or "The Wind Cries
Mary", and then think about the recent close encounter we all had with
Clapton singing "Autumn Leaves". JH wasn't a jazz guitar player, but
IMHO, he sure heard and felt jazz.
sheetsofsound
surprised folks can't hear the jazz feel in up from the skies.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, in that sense yes. I dug Up In the Skies. I admit, I was
impressed with the few tasty licks he played there and the wah wah
comping. No rock player of that day would have approached that tune
the way he did. His over all playing, *to Me* was not influenced by
jazz. I respect those who feel that it was. For me, it was Mitch who
made what Jimi did sound jazzy at times, especially Manic Depression.
-TD
sheetsofsound
Totally wrong. Listen to hendrix in the west.
Tea Party / Democrat
sheetsofsound
yeah, so did herb ellis
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh, OK. I will try to find that. Maybe some one can help me locate it.
Being wrong is good, because it will give me a chance to right my
wrongs. Please leave politics away from me, if you wish to debate me.
-TD
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
?
eric s
I dunno, being an electric guitar player in the late 20th/early 21st c
and not having ears for jimi's brilliance is kind of like being a sax
player and not being able to hear what was so great about coleman
hawkins, bird, or trane. Jimi is absolutely fundamental to the way
that electric guitar has been treated for the last 40 years. There
are still some great players who seem to have had little or no contact
with the hendrix strain of electric guitar (including, from what I
have heard, several of the best players on this list) but they are in
the small minority both in the jazz and in the rock world. 95% of the
people currently playing guitar in rock and or jazz, whether they are
using chorus or distortion or bending the b7 up to the octave, have
some fundamental aspect of jimi's playing as a foundation. As far as
what influenced him, his rhythmic fluidity, flexibility, and security
are very characteristic of great jazz playing. But you also heard
that in the great blues players that he probably learned more from,
like bb king and albert king.
E
Paul
100% Agreed.
It's amazing how many guitarists are concerned mainly with
showing off speed licks (which they play sloppily, as they go beyond
their ability to play the notes cleanly), and then when
it comes to the "primitive" Blues, they sound like crap.
Kenny Burrell was steeped in the Blues, and so he's
got that elusive "blue" note.
Hendrix wasn't a jazz guitarist per se, but
he DID have tons of jazz influences.....he even popularized
the "Hendrix" jazz chord:
Frisbieinstein
> Total command of blues.
You can say that again. Here's a blues recorded shortly before his
death that many people think is the best thing any rock guitarist ever
did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v-EBndS5sw
This never fails to amaze me. "It redefines the blues." He gets a
little bit of polytonality in there. He sings much better than usual
too.
BUT if you don't like like screaming rock guitar then you are not
going to like it. This is about as intense as it gets.
TD
No one played this bag near as good as Jimi did. And you can hear his
R&B Influence ( and some country influence as well). The psychadelic
factor was part of the times; LSD et al.
-TD
Jonathan (not from Cleveland)
> In article
> <95a7b1c6-e289-45a2-9b62-1dd8452a8...@i32g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> Bryce <bsutherl...@cox.net> wrote:
> > On Nov 14, 10:48 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > > I've always thought of Hendrix as having been influenced by
> > > Coltrane's modal stuff and his free stuff. I'm not really basing
> > > that on any musicological facts, just on my sense of the
> > > avant-garde influences of the times in that era.
>
> > > I think that Hendrix influenced jazz more than he was influenced by
> > > jazz. Hendrix influenced everybody in music.
>
> > > I think that Hendrix influenced jazz more than he was influenced by
> > > jazz. Hendrix influenced everybody in music.
>
> > Excellent point. The rock improvisation genre kind of boosted the
> > jazz fusion era bringing electronics into the picture more and
> > opening the audiences to more improvisation at concerts perhaps.
> > MIles Davis seems to have jumped on that band wagon after being one
> > of the greatest bop players on the planet. His huge sun glasses and
> > sparkle garb come to mind; much like Hendrix's garb. Hmm.. very
> > impressive observation you've made JG.
>
> I just finished Miles's autobiography which, like many such books was
> probably a mixture of hard truth, skewed perspective and outright lies.
> But he did talk about being influenced by Hendrix's music and also of
> hanging out with Hendrix and showing him jazz stuff. He said Hendrix
> had good ears and was quick on the uptake but had no technical
> vocabulary for music.
>
> --
> Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.
Although I recognize his greatness, it always sounded to me like
Hendrix played a lot of wrong (unintentional) notes.
I also think that sometimes people use distortion, wah-wah, and other
effects as a kind of crutch for musical ideas that aren't interesting
enough to stand on their own.
sheetsofsound
that definitely doesn't apply to jimi and he played very few
unintentional notes.
Ric
discussion.
I think the influences of rock, blues, jazz are irrelevant when
discussing his work.
Like Coltrane, I think Jimi was tapped into something deeper -
something shamanistic going on with those two.
We really need to get beyond these labels and categories as they
really don't add up to much, and they fail to really describe what we
should be aspiring to do as musicians.
Mr Maj6th
Maj6th
>As I recall, GP mag did an interview with Hendrix about 10 years ago
>wherein they asked questions as if he were alive. they even used an
>aged pic of what he could look like today had he lived.
>
>anyway, "Jimis" responses indicated clearly that if he was alive
>today, he'd most likely be playing jazz or jazz-influenced music.
>
>The way they did the "interview" was to project forward fromthe time
>of jimi's death in an effort to ascertain when he would be doing today
>musicaally speakiong. they drew on Jimi's previous quotes, interviews,
>and music to conclude they he'd liekly be playing jazz.
>
>So there! :)
van
It's pretty interesting how different various musicians' perceptions
can be of Hendrix.
TD was basically doing similar R&B gigs as Hendrix back then, and he
saw him in the context of the times.
The jazz guitar player who played with Tim Buckley (he was also an
editor at DB, and wrote a bio of TB) said that when he saw Hendrix
first, back in the mid 60s, he wasn't impressed at all. Just a rock
cat who played a lot of pentatonic scales and sang out of tune (he
changed his opinion years later, when Hendrix got more popular).
And yet, there were other jazz cats working in rock back then that
were completely blown away by him.
Bob Harris, a very good bop pianist who also played with Zappa and the
Mothers, went out and bought a white Strat, and bugged guitarists to
show him how to play like Hendrix. When he first heard Hendrix, he
wanted to quit the piano and play the guitar like Hendrix (he didn't)!
Another jazz musician who jammed a lot with Hendrix and Larry Young,
also wound up sharing a recording studio/rehearsal space with Hendrix,
and had the honor of playing so loud once that Hendrix had to bang on
the door and tell him to lower his volume! I'd like to ask him (Bob
Bruno) what he thought about this subject
Hendrix does say on one of the recorded jams with some organist:
"Okay, let's get a little mellow here and I'll be Kenny Burrell, and
you be Jimmy Smith".
On one live recording, Hendrix started playing the melody to "Lover"
in octaves in the middle of his solo.
The 60s tore open the world of the jazz musician, and it's interesting
to see what those times were really like musically from the
perspective of real jazz musicians who were involved with some of the
bands of that time.
There were a very few records from that time that had jazz guys in the
bands themselves, and they managed to record a tiny number of music
that could be said to be profound up to this day.
Tim McNamara
<0869b11c-033e-4a4f...@k30g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Lots of Hendrix's stuff had a certain genius to them. And you are quite
right, there *is* much more to playing great music than mastering
chord-scales and 50's melodies. You're also right that there is a
missing element of soul or heart or whatever from a lot of current jazz-
it's head music, not heart music and not even remotely crotch music.
Jazz ran far way from just about everything below the neck years ago.
But while those things are true, none of them make Hendrix into a jazz
player. He might have gotten there and almost certainly would have
developed beyond what he was able to become in his short years. But
rockers like Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead were much closer to
being jazz players than Hendrix.
Tim McNamara
<bd313e29-5dd1-4f17...@r21g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
TD <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 15, 8:58�am, Frisbieinstein <patmpow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 15, 10:51�am, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > �Total command of blues.
> >
> > You can say that again. �Here's a blues recorded shortly before his
> > death that many people think is the best thing any rock guitarist
> > ever did.
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v-EBndS5sw
> >
> > This never fails to amaze me. "It redefines the blues." �He gets a
> > little bit of �polytonality in there. He sings much better than
> > usual too.
> >
> > BUT if you don't like like screaming rock guitar then you are not
> > going to like it. �This is about as intense as it gets.
>
> No one played this bag near as good as Jimi did.
The song that founded Stevie Ray Vaughn's career....
Johnny Asia
wrote:
>
>And yet, there were other jazz cats working in rock back then that
>were completely blown away by him. >>
I read a Larry Coryell interview years ago, he said Hendrix played
great "jazz music" at late-night jam sessions in the Village.
Johnny
Johnny Asia
wrote:
>
>Well Bryce, but not as amazing as he did. Lets face it, burning,
>humping, morphing into a machine gun; not to mention simulating
>cunnilingus were things not less than amazing.
>
>-TD
I recently watched a Ravi Shankar DVD, he said he liked Jimi's
playing but he felt like he was in a nightmare when he saw him start
humping and burning his guitar at Monterey Pop.
Johnny
Frisbieinstein
>
> Bob Harris, a very good bop pianist who also played with Zappa and the
> Mothers, went out and bought a white Strat, and bugged guitarists to
> show him how to play like Hendrix. When he first heard Hendrix, he
> wanted to quit the piano and play the guitar like Hendrix (he didn't)!
Tony Tedesco wrote that after hearing the Mahavishnu Orchestra he
bought a Marshall amplifier and tried that style. I wonder what his
wife thought of that.
TD
Did you mean he recorded with Larry Young back then? I had heard that.
Would there be any other such recordings?
I would be interested in hearing. Yes, the 60's was special. We were
all experimenting. There were many jazz players interested in
expanding. Personally, myself and my mates were playing fusion before
it was called Fusion. It was a very special time. I was very flattered
back in '73 when a well known writer from Downbeat during an interview
told me that he realized I had caused CHASE to change directions from
basically a rock band with horns to a "jazz/rock" band. When I split
(luckily I escaped death via plane crash by a narrow margin), and
before the fatal accident, CHASE had returned to much more rock
influence. And yes, at age 15 I had worked many R&B gigs which
included working with Little Anthony, The Shirelles, Lenny Welch et
al. So no one can ever accuse my ass of being one dimension
orientated. Growing up with music, my friends called me "the sponge"
'cause I studied from everybody I could and so many greats in music
history were available in NY back then. It was a great time for
learning and experimenting. We began learning as beginners all the
standards that some here poke fun at, but we were already expanding
and experimenting. In the case of some of us who chose to stay not so
much in the limelight, I presume only my peers know of me concerning
facets and that suits me fine. It's been a great life and it still
is. If some of us have opinions, so we have opinions. We ain't
dipshits about it, because we understand about paying dues.
Forgive the bunched up wording. I'm on me IPhone and a heavy dream
woke me up. I thought you were gonna come over with your axe, man.
(It's ok to still use 'man', but not so much 'groovy').
-TD
Rick Stone
> Lots of Hendrix's stuff had a certain genius to them. And you are quite
> right, there *is* much more to playing great music than mastering
> chord-scales and 50's melodies. You're also right that there is a
> missing element of soul or heart or whatever from a lot of current jazz-
> it's head music, not heart music and not even remotely crotch music.
> Jazz ran far way from just about everything below the neck years ago.
>
> But while those things are true, none of them make Hendrix into a jazz
> player. He might have gotten there and almost certainly would have
> developed beyond what he was able to become in his short years. But
> rockers like Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead were much closer to
> being jazz players than Hendrix.
Tim, I think you need to get to New York more. The REAL jazz that I
hear in the city has PLENTY of head AND heart! It's not all the "Wynton
Marsalis approved" bland stuff that you hear coming from the major
record labels (the stuff that's likely to be heard on the radio or at
major festivals). You need to have feet on the ground here and get into
all the little places where there's a still scene going on. It's a nice
thing that Smalls has a live feed nowadays, but that's just a little
slice of what's happening. Sure there are a lot of technically
proficient kids out here who haven't yet found themselves yet (jazz
programs at Julliard, NYU, The New School & Manhattan School of Music
have insured that) but there are also lots who have and are playing
their a$$e$ off!
About your second point, I can't even imagine what the original poster
was thinking, except that Hendrix incorporated a few extended chords
(#9, 13, Sus4, etc.) that rock players who often don't know much beyond
triads and 7ths might construe to be "jazz" chords. But obviously
playing jazz involves a whole tradition, not necessarily just a
knowledge of chord/scales (although every player has some concept of how
this works), but a working knowledge of a wide variety of tunes from the
jazz repertoire through PLAYING those tunes night-after-night, learning
from the tradition and each other, and carrying the music forward. I
don't hear ANY of that in Hendrix playing.
Hendrix came from a different tradition; R&B and blues, which could be
viewed as offshoots of jazz, but definitely are NOT jazz, but rather the
beginning stages of early rock & roll. But it became somewhat
fashionable in the 60s for a lot of rock bands to play extended
one-chord vamps (a la the Doors, the Byrds, etc.) and claim jazz
influence (usually siting John Coltrane). I guess they thought that
made them somehow more sophisticated than their three-chord brethren,
but it seems that the extent of the jazz "influence" in their playing
was pretty superficial.
I think it's interesting though that on a "jazz" guitar newsgroup, the
threads that stir up the most conversation are the ones that contain the
names of famous rock guitarists (that so much time was devoted to the
abysmal Eric Clapton version of "Autumn Leaves" is another case in
point). That and politics. Oh well.
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
EPK: http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
tom walls
Last year I got this "extended" dvd of Hendrix at Woodstock, it's
pretty illuminating. It wasn't jazz by any stretch, but it was
seriously impressive improvising. Mitch Mitchell and Billy Cox were
the rhythm section and they were much more fluid than the Experience.
For those who might be interested.
Mr Maj6th
I think that the postings occur because the Hendrix legend has
ascended (or descended) to the realm of religion based on myth and
symbols, rather than rational empirical reasoning. If questioned,
this religion as in politics, threatens the belief system of each
side. The two views will never meet because they are diametrically
opposed. Altering the belief structure of either side changes their
philosophical affiliations to the myth verses empiricism battle.
Or maybe not....
Maj6th
Bob Russell
It's like the "Follow the shoe/follow the gourd" debate in "Life of
Brian"... only now it's "Follow Hendrix/follow Joe Pass". But equally
silly.
sheetsofsound
yes, it's no more politicized than folks who like martino vs folks who
think his approach is robotic. IOW, it's merely opinions which is what
this group is about. All opinions are subject to the same caveats .
Bob Russell
I don't know. Every once in a long while, there'll be a fact mixed in
with the opinions. But not enough to slow down "discussion". :-)
Bob Russell
So here's a fact: there are published interviews with Hendrix in which
he says he spent some time listening to Charles Mingus, Roland Kirk
and Eric Dolphy. Those would be considered "jazz influences" by most
people. So the thread's title is accurate.
Now here's my opinion: Someone having "[whatever] influences" isn't
necessarily a "[whatever] musician". Charile Parker spoke of listening
to Ravel and Debussy; Miles Davis listened to Stockhausen and Varese.
Nobody would claim they were "classical musicians".
Most people would probably label Hendrix a "rock musician". Whatever.
Hendrix made his own contribution to music in his own way; calling him
a "jazz musician" doesn't and can't add one thing to what he actually
did. His greatest music is more important than whatever his
"influences" were. Whether you think he made any great music or not,
that's your business. Me, I think he made some great music and some
not-so-great music... just like Wes or Coltrane. Opinions are like f-
holes...
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Those would be considered "jazz influences" by most
people. So the thread's title is accurate."
To *some people.*
Probably yes, "accurate" to most glorified rock and fusion heads. Such
"influences" are superficial ones as Mr. Stone so eloquently stated.
The debate will narrow down at this point to what is considered
influence and what is merely offstage listening enjoyment. For me, and
several of the people in my life, influence is a much bigger prize and
it is noticeable. Lets face it, Jimi, in all his splendor ( before the
pills, tabs, coke and heroin took precedence), was an amazing talent;
no denying. And the jazz players usually cited as Jimi's "jazz
influences" were all well into the "out" playing period. Now I just
opened a whole new can of worms for some here.
"yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy."
For me, "influence" shows up in playing. A one chord frolic as an
*attempt* to play happening fusion lines with Larry Young back then is
another thing entirely. Jimi had a great ear and bending with feeling
along with lots of soul and a great ear was *his forte*. Also, no rock
player back then could play a ballad the way he could. Also, to
compare two jazz players in the same manner would not be relevant nor
is it valid; they are jazz players and not one rock player vs one jazz
player. We have an psychedelic-acid rock player with heavy blues and
R&B roots who had some superficial jazz and country influences. Sure,
why not? Lets get all of Nashville in here as well.
The thread title was valid for you, but not for me. The word in the
title was "definitely", more than eluding to *definitively*, when the
appropriate word was *superficially* or slightly. For any player who
has paid tons of dues within a certain idiom, 'influence' is a much
more gathering of, and dimension-worthy word.
So, if certain people here are offended that certain people think
Jimi was not influenced by jazz or vice versa, why does it have to be
taken personal?
And no one cares to mention a Jewish kid from Chicago, who was one of
the best blues players ever, and the real father of fusion guitar and
who had far more influence than superficial influence concerning jazz.
His name was Mike Bloomfield.
-TD
Bob Russell
I must be a glorified rock and fusion head, then. (RMMGJ is always
such a great tool for self-discovery!) I'd consider Mingus, Kirk and
Dolphy to be jazz musicians. Not the kind who'd last long on a Sinatra
gig, but jazz musicians nonetheless. And "influence" has a dictionary
definition; there's no need to get into dues-paying and dimensions;
you can just look it up. But then we'd be straying back into fact and
out of opinion, and that'd never do... later.
Keith Freeman
> he says he spent some time listening to Charles Mingus, Roland Kirk
> and Eric Dolphy. Those would be considered "jazz influences" by most
> people.
I agree with Tony, the music you listen to is only an influence if
something from it comes out in the music you play. I "spend some time
listening to" Berg, Khatchaturian and Messiaen but none of that comes out
in my playing!
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Again, not personal. I said "some people" and "most rock and fusion
heads" This ain't about you, not is it about me.. And again,
misconstrued my reference to Mingus, Kirk and Dolphy, who of course
were jazz musicians. Outside playing, as you know, is widely mimicked
by tons of airheads these days who can't even play Happy Birthday.
There are as you also know, infinite layers of jazz between Trane and
Sinatra. But, all three (Dolphy too) could play a Sinatra gig with
flying colors. Trane played lots of R&B gigs coming up and played the
shit out of bebop. Influence to me, means what I have stated. Lots of
times dictionary definitions of the word influence do not transfer
well from Pat Boone to Sonny Rollins, as a weak example. Influence
must appear. I love genuine Spanish food, but that don't make me
anywhere near a chef nor do I consider myself influenced that way
(maybe slightly). And looking at it from another angle, had Hendrix
really been influenced by jazz or jazz guitar, jazz guitar would be a
helluva lot more popular than it is today. Because he was THAT
influential. When we get personal or construe as personal we only
reinforce those who really love acting personal here.
-TD
Johnny Asia
I swear I read a Joe Pass interview back in the éarly '70s where he
said the same thing! I think Pass said he wanted to try a Les Paul and
Marshall after hearing Mahavishnu, I don't remember if he actually did
that.
Johnny
Keith Freeman
'influence' means ;-} I suppose you could argue that Jimi was 'influenced'
by jazz but his music wasn't, but when we talk about a musician being
influenced by something we usually mean his music, not something else going
inside his head.
Johnny B Jesus
wrote:
>
> And no one cares to mention a Jewish kid from Chicago, who was one of
>the best blues players ever, and the real father of fusion guitar and
>who had far more influence than superficial influence concerning jazz.
>His name was Mike Bloomfield.
>
He was a big hero of mine, I grew up in Chicago.
I just found this:
Mike Bloomfield Guitar Lesson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzxAhS1CI3I
Johnny
TD
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:36:33 -0800 (PST), Frisbieinstein
>
> >On Nov 16, 2:01 pm, van <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Bob Harris, a very good bop pianist who also played with Zappa and the
> >> Mothers, went out and bought a white Strat, and bugged guitarists to
> >> show him how to play like Hendrix. When he first heard Hendrix, he
> >> wanted to quit the piano and play the guitar like Hendrix (he didn't)!
>
> >Tony Tedesco wrote that after hearing the Mahavishnu Orchestra he
> >bought a Marshall amplifier and tried that style. I wonder what his
> >wife thought of that.
>
> said the same thing! I think Pass said he wanted to try a Les Paul and
> Marshall after hearing Mahavishnu, I don't remember if he actually did
> that.
>
> Johnny
Yet back in 1971 just arriving on the west coast, when I hung out with
Joe in Hollywood, and after reading a Downbeat blindfold test that he
made and the player being listened to was Hendrix, I asked him about
it...which went like: "OK, I had enough..take it off!" (after hearing
one minute); Joe said, "Yea, I got a lot of heat for that."
Nothing against Jimi; nothing against Joe. Just what was.
-TD
Mr Maj6th
wrote:
>On Nov 16, 12:36�pm, Johnny Asia <baying46...@mypacks.net> wrote:
When I took lessons from Pass in the seventies, he was brutally honest
about what he thought of other "famous" guitars. I thought he was
always on the mark with his assesments and observations.
Maj6th
sheetsofsound
> For me, "influence" shows up in playing.
That's a bit pedantic for me. I'd like to think that all art that I'm
fond of finds its way into my creative process in one way or another.
sheetsofsound
> And no one cares to mention a Jewish kid from Chicago, who was one of
> the best blues players ever, and the real father of fusion guitar and
> who had far more influence than superficial influence concerning jazz.
> His name was Mike Bloomfield.
>
Yet, his influence on music was dwarfed by what Jimi did.
TD
No problem and is your choice. For me, pedantry persists in insisting
something is there when it is not (it is only presumed to be there).
My choice is just different.
-TD
TD
Not speaking of his influence on music. And concerning even that, some
may debate you. Mike, could give two shits about fame, anyhow. He was
already rich (his Dad) and he wanted to remain with the blues as a
purist. I only spoke about jazz influencing him as something
*tangible*. It is heard and well documented. Jimi admitted many times
that Mike influenced *him*, by the way.. The real argument you have,
should you keep rolling, is the definition of influence and not the
actual influence. Nothing will change your opinion, which of course I
respect; and nothing will change mine. I lauded the dude.
-TD