clones
Five Sharp
to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of cloning going
on. I think that's pretty cool for an amateur - anything goes there - but I
can't take a wannabe George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe Pass or Mike Stern
seriously as an artist, no matter how good they are (and some of them are
quite proficient). After all, If you don't have a voice of your own what
have you got? Who wants to listen to a wannabe (for essentially that's what
the clone is IMHO)? The real thing invariably surpasses the clone anyway.
All the guys I listen to and dig have strong individual voices. Clones I may
dig on a certain level but I never take them seriously and interest fades
away all too soon. That's a pity really for there are strong players among
them with good potential.
No offence meant, just a point for discussion. I sometimes hear guys
commenting on these clips as great playing while I am so turned off by the
lack of individuality in these clips that I lose interest after 30 seconds.
#####
andy...@mailinator.com
sonny stitt = parker
bireli lagrene = django.
I dont think you can force "having your own voice", so you must play
though your influences.
In the case of Steffan who plays a lot like mike stern , he composes
in the fusion style which i found admirable.
again this is going to be a tricky subject ;)
Five Sharp
time posting it (though I have been wanting to ... ) but I think I have a
valid point for discussion.
My main point is that as an amteur it's ok to be one but NOT for a serious
artist.
As a mainstream jazz guitarist, Bireli really has a voice of his own IMHO. I
even think he is one of the very best.
I think if influences overshadow your own voice, you have a problem. Is art
not about individual expression? Why would you want to express the voice of
someone else? What's the point?
#####
<andy...@mailinator.com> schreef in bericht
news:4e704aa6-2f6e-420b...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
stapledietgtr
People get absorbed in a persons style and they go through a period of
imitation. Of course a clone cannot be taken as a serious artist (whatever
that is), but the idea eventually ithink is that their style will evolve.
We're mostly talking about young players here arent we.
You play what you practice. IF your living/practicing Mike Stern 24/7, then
your going to take onboard that
elements of that style. NO harm. Fantastic actually.
But its what happens next thats important. Give people time.
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:dff0b$47d7bdb0$4df89e64$13...@news.chello.nl...
armandom28
Difficult subject matter. Let's take your youtube clips for example.
Now, I think you
are a proficient player, and I enjoy listening to you, but I don't
hear anything that I
haven't heard before.....and please, this is not an attack on your
style......it's just that
I think it is very difficult to be unique in jazz - especially playing
on a traditional instrument
with a traditional tone. IMO, a lot of players overplay, and rely too
much on scalar
thinking instead of tasteful variations of the melody.
Rick Ross
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:5cba0$47d7b3c0$4df89e64$71...@news.chello.nl...
Dick
At any level of proficiency or expressiveness...(call me a burnt out old
hippie if you want:)....If someone picks up a guitar to create music and I
feel a joy and some kind of commitment to the music from a clip or a
video....that is their "voice" at the moment...whether they can burn it up
like you or struggle through the changes....that's enough for me..as long as
they are totally connected to whole idea of playing guitar...to merge with
the guitar and music at any level is a "great" accomplishment....when guys
post clips here they just wanna know that their peers have taken a few
minutes to listen....I don't think it's more complicated than
that...understandably your creative standards are significantly higher but,
given the predominance of hobbyists and semi-pro types here, you'd be lucky
to find even a handful that are aspiring to that level of
individuality...how many, really, in any pursuit, are gifted enough to
transcend their original influences and provide the level of artistic
expression you have implied?
let's just play music
peace
rick
O great creator of being grant us one more hour to perform our art and
perfect our lives.
Jim Morrison
hw
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:5cba0$47d7b3c0$4df89e64$71...@news.chello.nl...
personally i couldn't care less. either i like the music or i don't. i'll
take willam ash over frisell or rosenwinkel any day of the week, because ash
plays music that i like listening to and the others don't. so there.
charles robinson
that style a vehicle for personal expression by playing lines and utilizing
other techniques that are his own. So it is more in the matter of sound and
playing techniques that he could be considered to be a kind of clone but
this doesn't eliminate personal creativity. It is difficult to determine
where to draw the line. If you take Jimmy Smith out of the organ player
equation there would probably be three people left one of whom who plays
steakhouses in Peoria.
Charlie
"hw" <nosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fr8gm5$t8f$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
Five Sharp
> Now, I think you
> are a proficient player, and I enjoy listening to you, but I don't
> hear anything that I
> haven't heard before.....and please, this is not an attack on your
> style......it's just that
> I think it is very difficult to be unique in jazz - especially playing
> on a traditional instrument
> with a traditional tone. IMO, a lot of players overplay, and rely too
> much on scalar
> thinking instead of tasteful variations of the melody.
I agree fully that you will not hear anything new when listening to me.
That's not my ambition at all and I am not a serious artist in the first
place. Just a fun player.
#####
Five Sharp
difference between him and Peter Bernstein or van Ruller I think, at least
to my ears. Really a different league exactly due to what I stated in my
earlier post.
But I agree, it's difficult where to draw the line. And Ash is a fine guitar
player indeed , at least10 times my size.
#####
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:Ru2dnT6jrt-nU0ra...@comcast.com...
pmfan57
Bireli started in the Django mold. But of all the gypsy players, he
is far and away the least clone like, being an excellent heavy metal,
rock, fusion and straightahead jazz player.
Five Sharp
> you'd be lucky
> to find even a handful that are aspiring to that level of
> individuality...how many, really, in any pursuit, are gifted enough to
> transcend their original influences and provide the level of artistic
> expression you have implied?
True. The really strong and unique voices are so few.
But if I am going to hear one more SRV clone I'm gonna puke :)
#####
sheets
> What's your take on clones? Maybe I am missing something but I have listened
> to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of cloning going
> on.
Like who? I haven't heard *ANY* cloning going on here. Not to pick a
fight but your clips (like any jazz guitarists) are pretty derivative
of Pass/Farlow/etc.
Who's really doing anything unique? There are a handful of artists in
every generation who are unique.
Don
I think it's pretty much a non issue.
I remember 30 years ago Royce Campbell seemed primarily a Wes clone,
now you hear a bit of Wes influence and there's lots more. People
change. Clips are a snapshot.
Five Sharp
even referring to amateur players - of which this group consists for 99%.
#####
> Who's really doing anything unique? There are a handful of artists in
> every generation who are unique.
Apparently so.
Five Sharp
> I think it's pretty much a non issue.
I disagree. It's THE most important issue in art.
#####
Five Sharp
> Who's really doing anything unique? There are a handful of artists in
> every generation who are unique.
There must be something in between being a clone and being a
once-in-a-lifetime jazz artist, don't you think?
#####
pmfan57
Of established players, many well known excellent players started off
sounding a lot like their heroes and developed a style of their own.
You heard more Wes influence on very early Martino records than on
later ones, but you could always hear that he came out of Wes. I
admit he was never a clone.
Maybe you have to give them time.
Five Sharp
Joe wrote:
> Of established players, many well known excellent players started off
sounding a lot like their heroes and developed a style of their own.
You heard more Wes influence on very early Martino records than on
later ones, but you could always hear that he came out of Wes. I
admit he was never a clone.
True. Funny that you say that. I was listening to PM's "East" the other day
and the Wes-isms in his style on that record annoyed me a bit. Even at that
time he did not need them at all. Talking about a unique voice, he already
had it before his 20th birthday I guess. But is that not true for Pass,
Raney, Wes, Farlow, Kessel etc. etc. ?
#####
pmfan57
Kessel had a pretty pronounced Charlie Christian influence especially
early on. As did most guitarists for a time. Many alto players
sounded like Bird, except for Lee Konitz and Paul Desmond. Eventually
Phil Woods, for example, came to have a quite recognizable style.
No one could do the "Wes" thing as well as Rodney Jones, but he also
had his own sound, which keeps developing to the present day.
Another Cleveland Guy
> > Who's really doing anything unique? There are a handful of artists in
> > every generation who are unique.
>
> Apparently so.
Somebody will surely say I'm full of crap, but it seems to me the
idiom has matured to the point where truly unique artists are going to
be few and far between -- and probably not very popular.
It isn't that everything's been done, it's just that the much of the
untilled soil largely involves extreme harmonic extension, odd time,
and various elements that haven't been traditionally considered very
"musical."
A lot of the really unique music I hear these days is very angular and
harmonically extended. A lot of it sounds kind of mathematical in its
conception. Much of it frankly isn't easy to listen to.
There are certainly some great players who play beautifully and are
unique in various ways. But at this point in the history of the idiom,
I think you can always find aspects of their playing that are
derivative in some way. On the other hand, I'm not hearing hardly any
good players who are so obviously derivative that I'd call them
"clones."
Maybe somebody will come along and create a voice that's beautifully
melodic and lyrical and yet totally unique, but I'm not betting on it.
I could be wrong, but I think that soil has largely been tilled.
Five Sharp
> Somebody will surely say I'm full of crap ...
LOL. Yes, but that's to be expected here, regardless of WHAT you say.
> Maybe somebody will come along and create a voice that's beautifully
melodic and lyrical and yet totally unique, but I'm not betting on it.
I could be wrong, but I think that soil has largely been tilled.
Pete Bernstein? Jesse van Ruller? I'd put them there. Not you?
#####
cl...@claymoore.com
Well, you'd be hard pressed to come up with someone who was more gaga
over Pat Martino than I was for years but I do find it odd that he
recorded TWO Wes Montgomery tribute albums. Pat of course had a huge
advantage in not sounding exactly like Wes because he was gigging
constantly with seasoned pro jazz players when he was still in his
teens, something I'm guessing many of the other imitators haven't had.
Clay Moore
pmfan57
He was never really a clone. Neither was Benson.
From what he has said, he was deeply influenced, both musically, and
personally, by Wes, which accounts for his two tributes, on neither of
which he copies Wes' sound.
cl...@claymoore.com
Well, I think it's partly time, and partly a choice. When I met and
hung with Scofield @ 1979 I was way into Wes, Martino, Pass, etc. I
mentioned some Martino things I was working on and Sco said "I'm
working on my own thing." At the time I thought "wow, that's pretty
ballsy; who couldn't learn from Martino?" but as he became more and
more of a force I realized he was completely correct.
I know a great player and I won't mention where or anything, but he is
technically and musically excellent. He's not particularly young
anymore. When I saw him a few years ago he was completely focused on
Django and had quite a bit that style down. The last time I saw him he
sounded completely different and I told him he reminded me of Kessel,
and sure enough, he told me he was copying Kessel. I think this is
bizarre. I mean, he's so focused on these people that his own identity
has never really surfaced to my ears. But no doubt he plays his ass
off.
Clay Moore
Another Cleveland Guy
> > Maybe somebody will come along and create a voice that's
>> beautifully melodic and lyrical and yet totally unique, but I'm not
>> betting on it.
>
> Pete Bernstein? Jesse van Ruller? I'd put them there. Not you?
Yeah, I'd put them there too, but I guess it's a matter of how
particular you want to get about the phrase "totally unique."
Somebody will surely come along and point to how they're
reinterpreting some great player to some extent.
ray...@yahoo.com
> What's your take on clones? Maybe I am missing something but I have listened
> to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of cloning going
> on. I think that's pretty cool for an amateur - anything goes there - but I
> can't take a wannabe George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe Pass or Mike Stern
> seriously as an artist, no matter how good they are (and some of them are
> quite proficient). After all, If you don't have a voice of your own what
> have you got? Who wants to listen to a wannabe (for essentially that's what
> the clone is IMHO)? The real thing invariably surpasses the clone anyway.
>
> All the guys I listen to and dig have strong individual voices. Clones I may
> dig on a certain level but I never take them seriously and interest fades
> away all too soon. That's a pity really for there are strong players among
> them with good potential.
>
> No offence meant, just a point for discussion. I sometimes hear guys
> commenting on these clips as great playing while I am so turned off by the
> lack of individuality in these clips that I lose interest after 30 seconds.
>
> #####
Perhaps the folks that you consider "non-clones" are simply clones of
people that you are unfamiliar with? Or clones of so many disparate
players of various instruments, genres, etc.?
Derek
Tal or others in their playing, but when I hear someone like Ash who
clearly is an intentional clone, I can admire his ability, but won't
buy his stuff.
We all are influenced by various players, but I have no aspirations to
sound like anyone in particular, even if I could muster it.
Imitation is said to be the sincerest form of flattery, but I find it
a bit boring. I would rather cherry pick from a variety of influences
and come up with a slightly different sound.
As stated above, there is not much new, or totally unique, but there
are some. Charlie Hunter, both PMs, Sco, Stern, Friz, all have pretty
unique voices.
Oberg seems to be able to do it all pretty well.
andy...@mailinator.com
> Well, I think it's partly time, and partly a choice. When I met and
> hung with Scofield @ 1979 I was way into Wes, Martino, Pass, etc. I
> mentioned some Martino things I was working on and Sco said "I'm
> working on my own thing." At the time I thought "wow, that's pretty
> ballsy; who couldn't learn from Martino?" but as he became more and
> more of a force I realized he was completely correct.
>
Thx for that quote Clay, food for thought!
Five Sharp
> As stated above, there is not much new, or totally unique, but there
> are some. Charlie Hunter, both PMs, Sco, Stern, Friz, all have pretty
> unique voices.
>
> Oberg seems to be able to do it all pretty well.
I agree Derek. It seems to me it's perfectly possible to play in a
predominantly derivative style (eg. bop), using pretty standard jazz/bebop
vocabulary and STILL have a strong individual voice. Pete Bernstein is a
good example of that.
#####
Derek
>
> I agree Derek. It seems to me it's perfectly possible to play in a
> predominantly derivative style (eg. bop), using pretty standard jazz/bebop
> vocabulary and STILL have a strong individual voice. Pete Bernstein is a
> good example of that.
>
Frankly, I think it is EASIER to do in jazz. Jazz encompasses so many
facets, so many avenues. It can be superimposed over pretty much
anyother style. Hard Polka Bop anyone?
You used SRV as an example of one who is often cloned in the blues
world. How hard it must be to have a unique voice in that genre.
Same I IV V progression, same 5 (about) notes. In jazz we get to mess
with the blues so much that typical blues fans don't even recognize it
as blues.
charles robinson
>I agree that Ash makes some very enjoyable music but there is a world of
>difference between him and Peter Bernstein or van Ruller I think, at least
>to my ears. Really a different league exactly due to what I stated in my
>earlier post.
>
> But I agree, it's difficult where to draw the line. And Ash is a fine
> guitar player indeed , at least10 times my size.
>
> #####
What's not being said is that Ash has developed his own style that is not
related as obviously as to Wes in which he uses a pick and plays blazing
lines.
Personally I like that one better and feel that one he can stand up there
with anyone in the world.
It seems that he took next step using the Wes influence to develop his own
thing.
If you go to this site and listen to Giant Steps and/or Caravan you will see
what I'm talking about:
http://www.williamash.com/audio.htm
Charlie
RickH®
> What's your take on clones? Maybe I am missing something but I have listened
> to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of cloning going
> on. I think that's pretty cool for an amateur - anything goes there - but I
> can't take a wannabe George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe Pass or Mike Stern
> seriously as an artist, no matter how good they are (and some of them are
> quite proficient). After all, If you don't have a voice of your own what
> have you got? Who wants to listen to a wannabe (for essentially that's what
> the clone is IMHO)? The real thing invariably surpasses the clone anyway.
>
> All the guys I listen to and dig have strong individual voices. Clones I may
> dig on a certain level but I never take them seriously and interest fades
> away all too soon. That's a pity really for there are strong players among
> them with good potential.
>
> No offence meant, just a point for discussion. I sometimes hear guys
> commenting on these clips as great playing while I am so turned off by the
> lack of individuality in these clips that I lose interest after 30 seconds.
>
> #####
there are degrees to everything, a 100 percent cloned technique would
probably be more difficult to achieve than just finding your own
voice, because the latter will always be the most relaxed easy way for
anyone to play, cloning takes work. But a 100 percent clone would
probably be very unsatisfying to the actual player and his critics
moreso than the listener. But as soon as you are not cloning 100
percent, the line is not distinct enough for me to let that get in the
way of liking it. I really like your playing (moreso than many other
pros), its not a 100 percent clone, tasteful borrowing of proven
technique is ok to me I guess.
charles robinson
Of established players, many well known excellent players started off
sounding a lot like their heroes and developed a style of their own.
You heard more Wes influence on very early Martino records than on
later ones, but you could always hear that he came out of Wes. I
admit he was never a clone.
Maybe you have to give them time.
As I mentioned to Dick in an earlier post (I don't know if he will ever get
back there) William Ash has done just what you mentioned and that can be
witnessed here on both Giant Steps and Caravan:
http://www.williamash.com:80/audio.htm
I feel that with his own thing which was derived from his studies of Wes he
is as strong and original as anyone out there.
BTW you are a good example of this type of development, although admittedly
influenced heavily by Martino you seem to be on your way to developing your
own sound and approach.
Charlie
Joe Finn
> What's your take on clones? Maybe I am missing something but I have
> listened to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of
> cloning going on. I think that's pretty cool for an amateur - anything
> goes there - but I can't take a wannabe George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe
> Pass or Mike Stern seriously as an artist, no matter how good they are
> (and some of them are quite proficient). After all, If you don't have a
> voice of your own what have you got? Who wants to listen to a wannabe (for
> essentially that's what the clone is IMHO)? The real thing invariably
> surpasses the clone anyway.
>
> All the guys I listen to and dig have strong individual voices. Clones I
> may dig on a certain level but I never take them seriously and interest
> fades away all too soon. That's a pity really for there are strong players
> among them with good potential.
>
> No offence meant, just a point for discussion. I sometimes hear guys
> commenting on these clips as great playing while I am so turned off by the
> lack of individuality in these clips that I lose interest after 30
> seconds.
>
> #####
Of course this occurs in all walks of life and not just in music. It's
natural to engage in a certain amount of hero worship during your formative
years. There is certainly a lot to be learned from those who paved the way
in any given endeavor. The greater lesson is to learn to be the person only
you can be. Finding one's own voice is the ultimate in personal expression
and is at the very center of the process of maturation.
In music a very high premium is attached to this sort of individuality but
one of the stepping stones towards this destination is the imitation of what
came before. As Clark Terry put it, "imitate, assimilate, innovate".
I agree with what you are saying here Dick. The imitation phase is a
necessary but not very interesting part of an individual's musical
development from the listener's perspective. It's also true that certain
imitations are delivered with a high level of technical proficiency.
Unfortunately this generally makes them even less interesting.
.......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
>
>
>
Five Sharp
> I really like your playing (moreso than many other
pros), its not a 100 percent clone, tasteful borrowing of proven
technique is ok to me I guess.
Thanks Rick. Though my style is highly derivative like Jack said I always
hope my own thing shines through. I never had the ambition to play state of
the art or to be an innovator. That would be a ridiculous goal, since I only
started playing jazz at 38. I am happy with what I play to begin with.
Seems to work for most people.
What is funny is how little I have in common with the opinion leaders at
RMMGJ. I am always suprised at how different my opinions are on gear,
learning, theory, players and what have you. But maybe that's a universal at
RMMGJ. There seems to be so little consensus on anything over here.
#####
Jon Forrest
>
> Frankly, I think it is EASIER to do in jazz. Jazz encompasses so many
> facets, so many avenues. It can be superimposed over pretty much
> anyother style. Hard Polka Bop anyone?
Don't laugh. In San Francisco there's a punk rock polka band
called Polkacide. They wear leather lederhosen with spikes
and mohawks. They play polka music real loud and fast.
Jon
Pete Kerezman
wrote:
I think that the difference may well be that the
"once-in-a-lifetime" cats go *all* the way back to its roots and then
re-invent the genre in their own terms, whereas the clones just
blindly copy the player(s) de jour.
Texas Pete
rakmanenuff
wrote:
> If you go to this site and listen to Giant Steps and/or Caravan you will see
> what I'm talking about:http://www.williamash.com/audio.htm
> Charlie
"flight of the bumblebee"
Joe Finn
"Pete Kerezman" <tejas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>
> I think that the difference may well be that the
> "once-in-a-lifetime" cats go *all* the way back to its roots and then
> re-invent the genre in their own terms, whereas the clones just
> blindly copy the player(s) de jour.
>
> Texas Pete
That's a good point, Pete. Many of the best players have a deep
understanding and respect for the style's history and it's traditions. A lot
of the best innovation comes from guys who are really steeped.
Or is that steepy? 8-) .....joe
charles robinson
agree on is that A is 440 and sometimes they will give you an argument about
that".
What you have described is the way that it is over here. You try to get
together with guys that you play well with even though there isn't always
100% agreement.What you are saying though probably accounts for the wide
range of original styles that are found here.
Charlie
>
>
>
>
charles robinson
shipwreck:)
Charlie
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:QdWdnXdgCoe4vkXa...@comcast.com...
Joe Finn
>
> I always hope my own thing shines through. I never had the ambition to
> play state of the art or to be an innovator. That would be a ridiculous
> goal, since I only started playing jazz at 38. I am happy with what I
> play to begin with. Seems to work for most people.
Dick: I like your playing a lot. You obviously have great ears and good
taste. Your playing also reflects a knowledge of certain important things
that are stylistic in nature. Maybe the fact that you got interested in jazz
at a relatively late age has contributed to the restraint and maturity that
I enjoy in your playing.
> What is funny is how little I have in common with the opinion leaders at
> RMMGJ. I am always suprised at how different my opinions are on gear,
> learning, theory, players and what have you. But maybe that's a universal
> at RMMGJ. There seems to be so little consensus on anything over here.
I don't think you should let that bother you too much, Dick. This returns to
the earlier theme you mentioned regarding individuality. Your point of view
and your comments in general are something I value. You've got lots of
friends here. ..........joe
charles robinson
>
> "flight of the bumblebee"
If you hear a certain Paganini influence, congratulations it escaped me.
For that kind of thing check out Pat Martino
who quotes from that piece quite a bit.
Charlie
Five Sharp
> shipwreck:)
> Charlie
LOL. I like that. A shipwreck.
#####
pmfan57
He was past that when you spoke to him. But he went through that
phase earlier on, as he has recounted in many interviews.
Joe Finn
> agree on is that A is 440 and sometimes they will give you an argument
> about that".
LOL! The soloists will always give you an argument about that! They
routinely tune sharp to make their sound more prominent. ...joe
Joe Finn
> P. S. I post here quite a bit but have never noticed any leaders of this
> shipwreck:)
> Charlie
All hands to the lifeboats! Women and children first! .....joe
Five Sharp
tonyde...@gmail.com
> What's your take on clones? Maybe I am missing something but I have listened
> to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of cloning going
> on. I think that's pretty cool for an amateur - anything goes there - but I
> can't take a wannabe George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe Pass or Mike Stern
> seriously as an artist, no matter how good they are (and some of them are
> quite proficient). After all, If you don't have a voice of your own what
> have you got? Who wants to listen to a wannabe (for essentially that's what
> the clone is IMHO)? The real thing invariably surpasses the clone anyway.
>
> All the guys I listen to and dig have strong individual voices. Clones I may
> dig on a certain level but I never take them seriously and interest fades
> away all too soon. That's a pity really for there are strong players among
> them with good potential.
>
> No offence meant, just a point for discussion. I sometimes hear guys
> commenting on these clips as great playing while I am so turned off by the
> lack of individuality in these clips that I lose interest after 30 seconds.
>
> #####
Nothing new under the sun. A clone, in my view, is a blatant copy-cat.
Anyone who plays from the heart and can tell a personal"story" when
playing, even if overly paying homage to a certain player, is worthy
of unclonedom. Many players whom certain people consider non-clones,
are perceived as clones to others. I have not yet studied the inverse.
Maybe that is equally true.
-TD
Keith Freeman
> musicians agree on is that A is 440 and sometimes they will give you
> an argument about that".
specially to A=444(?) to play there!
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
Keith Freeman
> shipwreck:)
Good point, Charlie, I haven't noticed any leaders either (though I have
noticed some bullies <GDR>).
Keith Freeman
> learning, theory, players and what have you.
Five Sharp
> noticed some bullies <GDR>).
I think I have confused opinion leaders and bullies then. Maybe it's the
same thing even :)
#####
charles robinson
> Good point, Charlie, I haven't noticed any leaders either (though I have
> noticed some bullies <GDR>).
>
> -Keith
They go under sooner or later.
Charlie
Don
> > I think it's pretty much a non issue.
>
> I disagree. It's THE most important issue in art.
>
> #####
Really? In your definition of art maybe, but art is a slippery thing
and the modern enthronement of the individualist self is itself fairly
short lived in terms of how long people have been making/doing/being
art, more like minutely fractional. But that wasn't my point.
There are no clones, not in visual art, not in aural art. Not in
movie making. None. My point was really that no one is actually doing
that or really capable of it for emotional and execution purposes. For
one, cloning someone would entail having their playing down as a
subset of what you can do, and then you'd have to want to do it. It
would entail somehow mimicking the internal approach and the technical
aspect. It's unlikely that would happen. If the cloner's playing is a
subset of what clonee does, they're unsuccessful at it which is
probably what bothers you in particular, and if one has a complete
grasp of what their clonee's approach is mentally and technically he
or she would be a player beyond the clonee's abilities and would
bring more to the table anyway. In which case their approach would be
ultimately disappointing. So who are these clones and their subjects
specifically? This subject really demands specifics.
Tom K
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:D62dnQgQ-4XPuEXa...@comcast.com...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOs1HC29zh4 ;-)
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
>> Difficult subject matter. Let's take your youtube clips for example.
>> Now, I think you
>> are a proficient player, and I enjoy listening to you, but I don't
>> hear anything that I
>> haven't heard before.....and please, this is not an attack on your
>> style......it's just that
>> I think it is very difficult to be unique in jazz - especially playing
>> on a traditional instrument
>> with a traditional tone. IMO, a lot of players overplay, and rely too
>> much on scalar
>> thinking instead of tasteful variations of the melody.
>
> I agree fully that you will not hear anything new when listening to me.
> That's not my ambition at all and I am not a serious artist in the first
> place. Just a fun player.
>
> #####
>
>
Fun is good. I doubt even the acknowledged "greats" always thought when
they were playing "hey, I'm a GREAT ARTISTE!"
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Five Sharp
it. Probably not. What I mean by clone is simply someone in whose playing
(sound, feel, content etc.) you immediately recognize a different player. I
don't even mean a complete copycatting of shape or content. That's
impossible in the first place. Where you draw the line to what is acceptable
is completely personal.
#####
pmfan57
>
> - Show quoted text -
But yet no one ever talks about the clones of Dr. Funkenstein. I
wonder why.
acmost
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:9e318$47d81b0a$4df89e64$24...@news.chello.nl...
I never had the ambition to play state of
> the art or to be an innovator. That would be a ridiculous goal, since I
> only started playing jazz at 38.
Half glass empty guy. Don't sell yourself short...
tomb...@jhu.edu
> On Mar 12, 10:51 am, "Five Sharp" <d.onst...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
> > > Maybe somebody will come along and create a voice that's
> >> beautifully melodic and lyrical and yet totally unique, but I'm not
> >> betting on it.
>
> > Pete Bernstein? Jesse van Ruller? I'd put them there. Not you?
>
> Yeah, I'd put them there too, but I guess it's a matter of how
> particular you want to get about the phrase "totally unique."
> Somebody will surely come along and point to how they're
> reinterpreting some great player to some extent.
Huge Grant Green influence in early Bernstein. I haven't checked out
his later stuff.
cl...@claymoore.com
> What's your take on clones? Maybe I am missing something but I have listened
> to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of cloning going
> on. I think that's pretty cool for an amateur - anything goes there - but I
> can't take a wannabe George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe Pass or Mike Stern
> seriously as an artist, no matter how good they are (and some of them are
> quite proficient). After all, If you don't have a voice of your own what
> have you got? Who wants to listen to a wannabe (for essentially that's what
> the clone is IMHO)? The real thing invariably surpasses the clone anyway.
>
> All the guys I listen to and dig have strong individual voices. Clones I may
> dig on a certain level but I never take them seriously and interest fades
> away all too soon. That's a pity really for there are strong players among
> them with good potential.
>
> No offence meant, just a point for discussion. I sometimes hear guys
> commenting on these clips as great playing while I am so turned off by the
> lack of individuality in these clips that I lose interest after 30 seconds.
>
> #####
Hi Dick,
No offense taken; it's a great topic. Howard Roberts used to say "if
you steal from one person it's plagiarism, but if you steal from
several it's research." I don't think he originated that saying but
it's a good one to repeat!
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is there is a certain amount
of time on the bandstand that I think contributes as much as anything
to a player finding his or her own voice. It's one thing to copy and
recycle lines you've learned from a particular player, and quite
another to improvise gig after gig with different musicians and not
open up to that experience. For me playing gigs with people like James
Polk, AD Mannion, Brannen Temple, Chris Maresh, Tomas Ramirez, Suzi
Stern and a whole host of other players was at least as important if
not more so than copying a Wes solo. Part of it is having the common
ground to begin with - these people know the players you draw from and
vice versa - so it's a kind of sharing that will never occur in your
practice room.
I did a short tour with Tony Monaco and had a blast just riding in the
van because he listens to Jimmy Smith, Don Patterson, Jack McDuff all
the time, and it was great to hear it and share our impressions. It
helped bind the gig when we went on stage.
Anyway, thanks for a cool thread.
Clay Moore
hw
<tonyde...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:70875810-d125-40fe...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>Nothing new under the sun. A clone, in my view, is a blatant copy-cat.
>Anyone who plays from the heart and can tell a personal"story" when
>playing, even if overly paying homage to a certain player, is worthy
>of unclonedom. Many players whom certain people consider non-clones,
>are perceived as clones to others. I have not yet studied the inverse.
>Maybe that is equally true.
>-TD
this is exactly how i'm feeling about this. well put.
hw
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:dff0b$47d7bdb0$4df89e64$13...@news.chello.nl...
-snip-
> I think if influences overshadow your own voice, you have a problem. Is
> art not about individual expression?
-snip-
i seriously don't know. is it?
rakmanenuff
> > I think it's pretty much a non issue.
>
> I disagree. It's THE most important issue in art.
>
> #####
Did anyone manage to clone Oscar Peterson before
he died?
10 Oscar Peterson clones walking down the street
would be a great work of art, imo.
10 George Benson clones playing in unison? Well that
sounds a bit freaky but anything that provokes a reaction
is art right?
But then, even George Benson himself said that when he
tried to play a song the same way more than once it
never worked. So if a player can't clone *himself*, then
who can?
Mark Cleary
You sound just like Wes man you have it down." I guess it depends but
personally I would love it if God would breath a perfect clone into my
hands so I could play just like Lenny Breu.
So what is wrong with a clone if you sound good?
Mark Cleary plays Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars
Handmade http://hollenbeckguitar.com/
Five Sharp wrote:
>> As stated above, there is not much new, or totally unique, but there
>> are some. Charlie Hunter, both PMs, Sco, Stern, Friz, all have pretty
>> unique voices.
>>
>> Oberg seems to be able to do it all pretty well.
>
> I agree Derek. It seems to me it's perfectly possible to play in a
> predominantly derivative style (eg. bop), using pretty standard jazz/bebop
> vocabulary and STILL have a strong individual voice. Pete Bernstein is a
> good example of that.
>
> #####
>
>
Gerry
>
> <tonyde...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:70875810-d125-40fe...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Nothing new under the sun. A clone, in my view, is a blatant copy-cat.
>> Anyone who plays from the heart and can tell a personal"story" when
>> playing, even if overly paying homage to a certain player, is worthy
>> of unclonedom. Many players whom certain people consider non-clones,
>> are perceived as clones to others. I have not yet studied the inverse.
>> Maybe that is equally true.
>
> this is exactly how i'm feeling about this. well put.
The problem with all this is that most "clones" I would imagine do not
conceive themselves as such. It falls on others to judge them as
"clones" or having a personal voice, which so far seems to be the only
two options. Without external judgement there are no clones.
I remember being told by someone that a third party was just a Wes
clone. I'd think that would be hard to do, purely cobbling together
licks form another person's playing. And then of course you have to
re-assemble them in what could only be considered personal choice.
Nevertheless I heard the guy and he played nothing like Wes with the
exception that about 15% of the time he liked to play octaves with his
thumb. So apparently that was the crux of his clonedom.
As such I'm delighted to be a clone of about 50 different guitarists
from whom I stole at least something of value. I stole from a lot of
horn players and pianists, but I don't think it's possible,
technically, for me to be their clone, is it?
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
paul
>
> Huge Grant Green influence in early Bernstein. I haven't checked out
> his later stuff.
influence, sure. but he still had his own thing to add to that very
early on. it's not eerie the way someone like rene thomas is (who I
love, btw).
pmfan57
Rene Thomas definitely developed and did not sound like Raney on his
later stuff. Neither did he sound exactly like Grant Green. Are you
talking about early Thomas? Doubting Thomas?
pmfan57
> I guess I would consider it a huge accomplishment if someone told me, "
> You sound just like Wes man you have it down." I guess it depends but
> personally I would love it if God would breath a perfect clone into my
> hands so I could play just like Lenny Breu.
>
> So what is wrong with a clone if you sound good?
>
> Mark Cleary plays Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars
>
>
>
> Five Sharp wrote:
> >> As stated above, there is not much new, or totally unique, but there
> >> are some. Charlie Hunter, both PMs, Sco, Stern, Friz, all have pretty
> >> unique voices.
>
> >> Oberg seems to be able to do it all pretty well.
>
> > I agree Derek. It seems to me it's perfectly possible to play in a
> > predominantly derivative style (eg. bop), using pretty standard jazz/bebop
> > vocabulary and STILL have a strong individual voice. Pete Bernstein is a
> > good example of that.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'd be happy to be able to play just like Allan Holdsworth. To
paraphrase Gene Quill, if criticized I'd say "you try to play like
Allan Holdsworth".
oasysco
> What's your take on clones? Maybe I am missing something but I have listened
> to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of cloning going
> on. I think that's pretty cool for an amateur - anything goes there - but I
> can't take a wannabe George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe Pass or Mike Stern
> seriously as an artist, no matter how good they are (and some of them are
> quite proficient). After all, If you don't have a voice of your own what
> have you got?
My level of talent.
sheets
> I'm not going to bite Jack. You and I rarely agree on anything. I was not
> even referring to amateur players - of which this group consists for 99%.
I just find it odd that you are posting clips everywhere imitating the
old guys but your original posting indicates you won't can't listen to
folks who do just that. I guess I'm confused. Not trying to bust your
balls but you did bring it up...
Keith Freeman
> lack of individuality in these clips that I lose interest after 30
> seconds.
unheard - of jazz guitar with big band. I thought, wow, it's not so often
you get to hear jazz guitar with big band, should be fun. When I got it
home and played it, the soloist sounded so much like Pat Martino that I
thought to myself 'Why would I want to listen to this - big band or no big
band - when I can listen to the real thing?'.
paul
>
> I just find it odd that you are posting clips everywhere imitating the
> old guys but your original posting indicates you won't can't listen to
> folks who do just that.
it's not really a stretch to say something like: "I prefer listening
to players who have an original voice, but I don't have an original
voice myself". the same logic holds true for things like rhythm. just
because my time isn't perfect doesn't mean I like to sit around
listening to other people who have bad time. in this context, what
##### is saying doesn't seem odd at all. seems logical to me.
please don't take anything in the above to be a value judgement of
#####'s playing, I think he plays great.
--paul
paul
yeah I haven't heard his later stuff. c'mon though, in his early
stuff, he sounds a hell of a lot like raney.
pmfan57
Absolutely. But he made many many records in a mature style in which
he sounds like himself. He was a really top flight guy.
pmfan57
It's not hypocritical really for the reason Paul said.
Actually by clones I think Dick doesn't mean just playing in the style
of older players. I think he is talking about really sounding a lot
like a *particular* player. He really doesn't sound like any
particular classic bop player.
sheets
>
> Actually by clones I think Dick doesn't mean just playing in the style
> of older players. I think he is talking about really sounding a lot
> like a *particular* player. He really doesn't sound like any
> particular classic bop player.
I guess I don't get it then unless he gives specific examples. I think
with the lack of a live jazz scene in most places in the US, it's
encouraged the whole retro thing where folks are more interested in
playing in a way that preserves the 40s-50s-and 60s so if that's what
he's talking about I agree with him.
cl...@claymoore.com
The player who IMO models Oscar Peterson the closest is Monty
Alexander, but fortunately for all concerned his Caribbean ancestry
and impish spark elevate his playing beyond that of a "mere" OP knock-
off.
As far as GB is concerned, listen to "smooth jazz" and you will hear a
number of GB wanna-be's, some very good but still highly derivative.
I'd mention a well known straight ahead player too but that would get
me into trouble in these parts.
Clay Moore
tonyde...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
"As far as GB is concerned, listen to "smooth jazz" and you will hear
a
number of GB wanna-be's, some very good but still highly derivative"
Yea, its really hilarious. I mean everytime I shop here at Food
Emporium; watered down Bensonian pentatonicky blues licks on the sound
system. They don't seem to ever play through changes, really, they
just cop the one chord part of the George thing, although usually very
clean; very vanilla-style at best. George should get residuals.
-TD
RB
> What's your take on clones? Maybe I am missing something but I have listened
> to a number of clips posted here and there's quite a bit of cloning going
> on. I think that's pretty cool for an amateur - anything goes there - but I
> can't take a wannabe George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe Pass or Mike Stern
> seriously as an artist, no matter how good they are (and some of them are
> quite proficient). After all, If you don't have a voice of your own what
> the clone is IMHO)? The real thing invariably surpasses the clone anyway.
>
> All the guys I listen to and dig have strong individual voices. Clones I may
> dig on a certain level but I never take them seriously and interest fades
> away all too soon. That's a pity really for there are strong players among
> them with good potential.
>
> No offence meant, just a point for discussion. I sometimes hear guys
> lack of individuality in these clips that I lose interest after 30 seconds.
>
Dick,
Good topic!
Like you I cringe w/ the clonism, mostly because it reminds me of the
past few years when I was playing so much GB stuff (as you know) that
I was being lost in the equation. My playing of the last 2 years is
now rapidly moving away from that, as my vids hopefully hint
at ;-)....
If you are a pro, I say, be your own man for better or worse, and lets
face it, it is mostly for worse. Someone may have an "original"
style , but chances are it won't have the power/ resonance of the all
time masters. one is left wondering whether it might be better to play
a good imitation of a "master" and sound "good" or play your own man
and sound only ok....I do know I otally CRINGE when "I hear outright
ape-ing going on. A line or 2 or a naturally integrated thing is one
thing, but a total copy that is unashamedly proud of "how close they
can get" just makes my skin crawl.
He is a great guitar player, but Oberg has always struck me that way.
Pure Benson ripoff w/ nothing of his own...Have you seen that vid
where he plays Breezin' w/ Mike Reinhardt. they both try to play
George as closely as possible and sound HORRIBLE for it, to me. cringe
inducing to me.
Good discussion!
pmfan57
I think the coolest stuff you do is when you're doing the stuff on
top, with the chords moving independently below, almost Breau like.
Because no one else has been able to do the Breau stuff, there's a lot
of that territory remaining to be explored without being a clone.
(Plus Breau was essentially trying to be Bill Evans on the guitar and
there's certainly plenty of room on guitar for that in general.) I
have seen you do that stuff live, and some on the vids at Dan's
apartment.
pmfan57
I think he brought up some SRV clones. There are some smooth jazz
Benson clones. William Ash might have been at one time a Wes clone.
Obviously there's no problem with an amateur playing a lot of, say,
Pat Martino licks, for example. That would be perfectly acceptable.
Why, there would be nothing wrong with that at all. No sir.
sheets
> Because no one else has been able to do the Breau stuff, there's a lot
> of that territory remaining to be explored without being a clone.
huh? There are tons of guys who can do that. I agree Richard's solo
playing is great but go down to nashville sometime and hear the breau
clones. Of course they're not real jazz players because they listen to
Gatton and Mason and Lee but there are a bunch of guys there that do
that stuff. Incidentally, Martin Taylor and Tuck Andress are two guys
who come to mind that do that bag ...
paulmitc...@gmail.com
clones is that they aren't satisfied with plugging their Strats into
Tube Screamer-fuelled Fender amps - they also have to steal the black
hat and boots!
While far from being a fave of mine, SRV commands respect for the way
he blended Lightnin' Hopkins, Guitar Slim, T-Bone Walker, Buddy Guy,
Albert King and Jimi Hendrix into a potent and attractive mix. Most of
his imitators sound as though they've never ventured further back than
Led Zeppelin.
There are a host of modern blues guitarists out there who have their
own sound - Joe Louis Walker (with whom I've had the good fortune of
sharing a stage) comes immediately to mind - artists who have mined
the whole tradition without paying slavish homage to anyone in
particular. Incidentally, I feel the same way about the incredible
Jesse Van Ruller.
Paul M Brown
Mark Cleary
frankly I disagree that there are a bunch of Lenny Breau clones. I have
never heard anyone get him exact and Martin and Tuck don't come to mind
as in his bag. I would like to hear some Lenny clones I just have not
heard one yet.
Mark Cleary plays Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars
Handmade http://hollenbeckguitar.com/
paul
>
> Yea, its really hilarious. I mean everytime I shop here at Food
> Emporium;
tony, not sure where you are located in nyc, but if you can, give
fairway a try. awesome, awesome grocery store with super tasty food
and great prices.
--paul
acmost
"Mark Cleary" <mcle...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:M59Cj.7245$Y33.3150@trndny07...
I have
> never heard anyone get him exact and Martin and Tuck don't come to mind as
> in his bag. I would like to hear some Lenny clones I just have not heard
> one yet.
See so clones are good? Just depends who you want to hear cloned. :)
Kevin Collins
> Its a tricky subject, but sometimes its unwarrented..like
>
> sonny stitt = parker
>
mmmm... more like sonny stitt != parker. Maybe some of Stitt's early
alto sides show some similarity, but after that he's his own man,
sounding more like the bridge between Pres and Trane than the commonly
misperceived Bird-clone.
> bireli lagrene = django.
>
Also, I think the former has grown out of the shadow of the latter,
but this is all IMO...
-Kevin
ken
> tony, not sure where you are located in nyc, but if you can, give
> fairway a try. awesome, awesome grocery store with super tasty food
> and great prices.
I tend to like Whole Foods (a.k.a. Whole Paycheck). I think the
prepared foods and other things tend to be much better at Whole
Foods. Fairways has some nice things, but is still stuffed pretty
much with national brands.
The other one is Trader Joe's which is great and cheaper.
There will be a Trader Joe's opening near you on the corner of
Atlantic and Court st.
Ken
charles robinson
similarity in harmonic conception along with some similarities in sound at
times that were the common denominators between Stitt and Bird. In terms of
content of the solos they were two different people. In addition Sonny's
style on tenor differed from his alto playing and he also had more than one
overall style that he could pull out.
Charlie
"Kevin Collins" <kevin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d3a058ca-3151-458a...@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
paul
>
> I tend to like Whole Foods (a.k.a. Whole Paycheck). I think the
> prepared foods and other things tend to be much better at Whole
> Foods. Fairways has some nice things, but is still stuffed pretty
> much with national brands.
but the produce is great and they have many fairway-specific things
(bread, olive oil, coffee). I feel like most things I've gotten there
have been really high quality, and it's loads cheaper than all the
other grocery stores around us. whole foods is awesome, but damn is it
expensive :). fwiw, we started going to the red hook fairway this year
and haven't been back to our local grocery store since, and it's 2.25
miles each way to fairway!
> The other one is Trader Joe's which is great and cheaper.
>
I like trader joe's enough to trek out to the 14th st location, but
it's more of a specialty foods store than a substitute for a regular
grocery.
--paul
sheets
> I hear lots of players who play straight up jazz and sound like many but
> frankly I disagree that there are a bunch of Lenny Breau clones. I have
> never heard anyone get him exact and Martin and Tuck don't come to mind
> as in his bag. I would like to hear some Lenny clones I just have not
> heard one yet.
Why would anyone want to "get them exact" ? I'm just talking about
guys who can do what he did in terms of the approach. I applaud martin
and tuck for going in their own direction.
cl...@claymoore.com
Ah, the good old days when Whole Foods was one store on Lamar in
Austin, a small place staffed by young hippie gals wearing no bras.
Since the metamorphosis into a giant chain they've rebuilt their
charter store down the street from the original - corner of 6th and
Lamar - and it's unbelievable. If you're ever in Austin you owe it to
yourself to make a stop, but I have to admit I miss the old vibe, too.
Clay
ken
> but the produce is great and they have many fairway-specific things
> (bread, olive oil, coffee).
That's true, they do have good stuff. But I don't like the coffees
we've tried there (too acidic). Out here where we are, we have great
local stores for bread and coffee (D'amico coffee on court street has
great coffee. I love their French Sumatra). As you know, it's an old
Italian neighborhood...
I like Whole Foods generally for hanging out; I like taking my kid out
and having lunch in the food court. They have really great things for
reasonable prices. Their prepared curries are pretty good for what it
is, for example. The prepared stuff at Fairways has been pretty
mediocre (those precooked bbq packs and stuff like that).
> I feel like most things I've gotten there
> have been really high quality, and it's loads cheaper than all the
> other grocery stores around us.
Yeah, that's the thing. Grocery stores in general in NYC just really
s**k. They are just really, really bad. I remember looking for fresh
garlic and a guy just kept pointing to a basket full of plants and I
said "that's not garlic!" and he kept saying "yes it is!". It's just
that the garlic was actually growing, it was so old.
> I like trader joe's enough to trek out to the 14th st location, but
> it's more of a specialty foods store than a substitute for a regular
> grocery.
That's true.
Ken
RickH®
> "charles robinson" <robinsonch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:mdOdnVNWyIEUuUXa...@comcast.com...
>
> > P. S. I post here quite a bit but have never noticed any leaders of this
> > shipwreck:)
> > Charlie
>
> All hands to the lifeboats! Women and children first! .....joe
>
> --
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
On Gilligans Island the professor could make a radio out of a coconut,
but he couldn't fix a hole in a boat? Whats that all about?
RickH®
>
> - Show quoted text -
GB and Metheny both are impersonated a lot in the smooth jazz genre.
Yes, that kind of cloning I cant take for more than a few measures,
because it's so predictable and you know as you listen that there will
be no interesting twists and turns. Just an impressionistic painting
of the real thing.
tonyde...@gmail.com
W68th and CPWest. Fairway is cool, but always too crowded and
constitutes too much time away from my axe. I only use FEmp for
mundane items. Usually I am at Balduccis or Whole Foods when downtown.
Thanks. Bring your axe over my pad man, play a few tunes.
-Tony
charles robinson
On Gilligans Island the professor could make a radio out of a coconut,
but he couldn't fix a hole in a boat? Whats that all about?
You have been been here for a while the answer should be clear. This is a
place where guys are floating around in life preservers hollering Help!
while others are still on the ship wandering around yelling This way! No,
That way!
Charlie