good jazz tone:Rolling off the treble does not produce it
ng tian khean
It all seems easy. To get a good 'bassy' jazz tone, roll off the treble on
the guitar. But in my experience, what you get is a dead muffled tone,shorn
off all the intricate harmonics which makes a guitar sound alive- which even
increasing the Volume doesn't rectify. IMHO its best to leave the tone
control full-on, and either change guitar, change pick-ups, change amp, or
adjust the amp. if you are not getting the tone you want
Jack A. Zucker
This is subjective and there is no right or wrong answer.
There are plenty of jazz artist's who contradict what you are saying.
Metheny, Martino, Jim Hall, Ed Bickert, and many others roll off the tone
control and IMHO get beautiful sounds out of their guitars. Of course George
Benson, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, and many others leave their tone controls
fully open .
It's all what you like to hear.
-Jaz
ng tian khean wrote in message <6ikc7v$bi4$1...@columbine.singnet.com.sg>...
Chip Zempel
In article <6ikc7v$bi4$1...@columbine.singnet.com.sg>, "ng tian khean"
<kh...@singnet.com.sg> wrote:
>It all seems easy. To get a good 'bassy' jazz tone, roll off the treble on
>the guitar. But in my experience, what you get is a dead muffled tone,shorn
>off all the intricate harmonics which makes a guitar sound alive- which even
>increasing the Volume doesn't rectify. IMHO its best to leave the tone
>control full-on, and either change guitar, change pick-ups, change amp, or
>adjust the amp. if you are not getting the tone you want
A lot of people in this newsgroup would add to your list "change the
strings." Lots of electric players are used to super light guage strings,
but it's really hard to get that "jazz" tone with strings this light. Try
12s or even 13s.
Chip Zempel
cze...@ns.net
Clay Moore
Jack A. Zucker wrote:
>
> This is subjective and there is no right or wrong answer.
>
> There are plenty of jazz artist's who contradict what you are saying.
>
> Metheny, Martino, Jim Hall, Ed Bickert, and many others roll off the tone
> control and IMHO get beautiful sounds out of their guitars. Of course George
> Benson, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, and many others leave their tone controls
> fully open .
>
> It's all what you like to hear.
This is a funny subject. I often get sound engineers who say "your
guitar tone isn't bright enough; you need to add some highs." To which I
reply "that's the way I like it to sound, don't mess with it!" Last
night I did a live radio show and listened back to the recording. Both
the bassist and I complimented the engineer on capturing the tone of our
instruments, just the way we heard them.
Clay
Bill Hatcher
"ng tian khean" <kh...@singnet.com.sg> wrote:
>It all seems easy. To get a good 'bassy' jazz tone, roll off the treble on
>the guitar. But in my experience, what you get is a dead muffled tone,shorn
>off all the intricate harmonics which makes a guitar sound alive- which even
>increasing the Volume doesn't rectify. IMHO its best to leave the tone
>control full-on, and either change guitar, change pick-ups, change amp, or
>adjust the amp. if you are not getting the tone you want
>
>
Whew!!!! Treble full on-----I don't think so! Hard to get a good
idea of what you consider a good Jazz tone over the internet so every
thing printed here will be just my own opinion.
Let's talk Wes, J. Smith, Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell etc.
First ingrediant is an arch top guitar, carved spruce top OR laminated
top. Hall and Pass get a great sound out of those old 175s.
Pickups--P90s on the Hall 175, and humbuckers on the
Wes L5, Dearmond 1100 on many of the Burrell records. All sound good.
Strings---Flatwound!!!!!! Heavy guages. One of the main things that
will give you the traditional jazz guitar sound is the flatwounds.
The PUs and the guitars tend to be of less importance than the
flatwounds. 13-54 guage for a nice big tone!! Don't plan on playing
your favorite blues/rock licks!
EQ----This should be more or less "flat". Not too much of either bass
or treble on the amp.
Amps. ALL the old 50s early 60s stuff we dig was recorded through
vacumn tube amps through vacumn tube tape recorders through vacumn
tube consoles and so on. Now a days, the transistor amps that the
rock players hate are a good match for seeking the "flat" uncolored
tone that jazzers like.
Picks-- THICK!!!! that is the sound. I got some friends using
those picks made out of agate stone and some made out of ebony. HUGE
tone.
What else??
Kevin Van Sant
>Strings---Flatwound!!!!!! Heavy guages. One of the main things that
>will give you the traditional jazz guitar sound is the flatwounds.
>The PUs and the guitars tend to be of less importance than the
>flatwounds. 13-54 guage for a nice big tone!! Don't plan on playing
>your favorite blues/rock licks!
>
Contrary to the above opinion there is no golden rule in jazz about
the necessity to use flatwounds. In fact if you've got a nice fat,
guitar there is little need for flatwounds to get a big round tone.
Even with a flatwound set you've still got the same two unwound
strings that get a lot of use. If you can get a good tone on those
two strings then roundwounds will also sound good. If you can't then
they won't sound very balanced with flatwounds anyway. I agree about
heavy gauges though.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
Jazz Guitar
Check out our new J'Azure CD !!
http://www.mindspring.com/~jazure/music.html
For a comprehensive index of internet jazz resources:
http://www.pobox.com/~onestopjazz
_________________________________________
Jack A. Zucker
>Strings---Flatwound!!!!!! Heavy guages. One of the main things that
Pat Martino always sounded fantastic with roundwounds. I think the heavy
strings comment is probably more to the point. The Flatwounds will give you
a duller sound but you can accomplish some of that with the tone control.
>Amps. ALL the old 50s early 60s stuff we dig was recorded through
>vacumn tube amps through vacumn tube tape recorders through vacumn
>tube consoles and so on. Now a days, the transistor amps that the
>rock players hate are a good match for seeking the "flat" uncolored
>tone that jazzers like.
JC-120 is my fave but I still like the sound of a finely tuned Fender Twin
better - It's too bad they're so damn heavy. I find the JC-120 to be much
cleaner and cuts through better at all volumes. Unlike the Twin, the
JC-120's tone seems to be very linear. That is - It has the same tone
throughout it's volume range. The Twin tends to get bassier as you increase
the volume but at low volumes it sounds beautiful. It's hard to beat an L5
with flatwounds played with your thumb through a Twin (Think Wes Montgomery)
-Jaz
Jack A. Zucker
Clay Moore wrote in message <354DF0...@earthlink.net>...
>This is a funny subject. I often get sound engineers who say "your
>guitar tone isn't bright enough; you need to add some highs."
That happens to me all the time. The problem is that 99% of the recording
engineers out there have no concept of what a jazz guitar tone is. The only
clean sounds they can relate to are acoustic and clean/bright stratocaster
tones.
I did a live radio broadcast a few years ago using my Ibanez GB-10 (I wish I
still had it!) and during the sound check, I asked the engineer to turn the
brightness down. I received a very condescening comment from him indicating
that he's done thousands of shows for "name acts" and that he would make
sure everything sounded great.
I was using the neck pickup through a JC-120 amp with the tone control
rolled back. When I heard the recording, I was astounded. It sounded like I
was playing a Telecaster!
-Jaz
John Williams
If you aren't calling the shots at your next recording session there
isn't much you can do about your tone.
If you are calling the shots or you are working for someone who wants
you to get "your" tone, find a CD that has "your" tone on it and bring
it to the studio during set-up. It would be great if it was a recording
of you playing but any CD with the tone you are looking for is fine.
Get the engineer to run the CD player through the board during the
"getting of the tones" (similar to casting of the runes) and, while
sitting in the control room, continually go back and forth between what
is coming from your guitar and what is coming from the CD.
Beware though, many "engineers" will not like this because they don't
know what they are doing. This is probably a good scenario to talk to
the engineer about when choosing a studio for your next project.
Bill Hatcher
kvan...@pobox.com (Kevin Van Sant) wrote:
>On Mon, 04 May 1998 18:19:25 GMT, bhat...@mindspring.com (Bill
>Hatcher) wrote:
>
>
>>Strings---Flatwound!!!!!! Heavy guages.
>Contrary to the above opinion there is no golden rule in jazz about
>the necessity to use flatwounds. In fact if you've got a nice fat,
>guitar there is little need for flatwounds to get a big round tone.
>Even with a flatwound set you've still got the same two unwound
>strings that get a lot of use. If you can get a good tone on those
>two strings then roundwounds will also sound good. If you can't then
>they won't sound very balanced with flatwounds anyway. I agree about
>heavy gauges though.
Roundwounds just will not give you that nice "thud" that flatwounds
do. The feel of the pick on the flatwound is pretty nice too!.
The roundwounds just don't have the exaggerated mids the flatwounds
have, and the dynamic range and volume of flatwounds is a lot more
than rounds. I did a session with Herb Ellis and the sound and attack
he got from a 175 with huge flatwounds was incredible. Can't get that
sound from roundwounds. I do like the sound of some of the" flat
polished" strings. A little bit of both worlds.
Bill Hatcher
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@gwis.com> wrote:
>Clay Moore wrote in message <354DF0...@earthlink.net>...
>
>>This is a funny subject. I often get sound engineers who say "your
>>guitar tone isn't bright enough; you need to add some highs."
>
>That happens to me all the time. The problem is that 99% of the recording
>engineers out there have no concept of what a jazz guitar tone is. The only
>clean sounds they can relate to are acoustic and clean/bright stratocaster
>tones.
Yes!!! I lost count at 3500 recording sessions I have done since
1965. This new crop of recording engineers have been raised on
digital "brightness" and they just have no clue when it comes to
capturing a classic jazz tone. Take some CDs of your favorite jazz
guitarist and let them listen.
Same goes with electric bass sounds. They only understand the "roto"
sound. What would James Jamerson have sounded like today???
>
>I did a live radio broadcast a few years ago using my Ibanez GB-10 (I wish I
>still had it!) and during the sound check, I asked the engineer to turn the
>brightness down. I received a very condescening comment from him indicating
>that he's done thousands of shows for "name acts" and that he would make
>sure everything sounded great.
>
>I was using the neck pickup through a JC-120 amp with the tone control
>rolled back. When I heard the recording, I was astounded. It sounded like I
>was playing a Telecaster!
Been in that movie many times!
Boerge Soleng
>Strings---Flatwound!!!!!! Heavy guages. One of the main things that
>will give you the traditional jazz guitar sound is the flatwounds.
>The PUs and the guitars tend to be of less importance than the
>flatwounds. 13-54 guage for a nice big tone!! Don't plan on playing
>your favorite blues/rock licks!
I prefer flatwwounds too, but I think there's many jazz players using half
round wounds, George Benson I think is one of them.
Boerge Soleng, boe...@vinn.no
__________________________________________________________________
"Nice touch!" (Miles Davis about Herbie Hancock)
Tom Jaffe
>
>
> I prefer flatwwounds too, but I think there's many jazz players using half
> round wounds, George Benson I think is one of them.
>
> Boerge Soleng, boe...@vinn.no
> __________________________________________________________________
> "Nice touch!" (Miles Davis about Herbie Hancock)
I believe Mr. Benson uses flatwounds. He used to use LaBella flats, and now is using D'Addario
flatwounds (which I believe are actually ribbon wound, but not half rounds).
ClassyLassie
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@gwis.com> wrote:
>Clay Moore wrote in message <354DF0...@earthlink.net>...
>
>>This is a funny subject. I often get sound engineers who say "your
>>guitar tone isn't bright enough; you need to add some highs."
>
I too, let a reputable engineer convince me not to roll off the
treble. He said it would give him more to work with, and that we could
always roll it back off. I even brought in Pat Metheny "We live Here"
where Pat has ALL the treble rolled off, just to impress my point upon
him.
Now I'm on a $16,000 cd, with this awful high-mid guitar sound that I
loathe, not to mention that my playing suffered from being unhappy
with the tone I was hearing while playing!
Meanwhile I did a jazz session at an amateur, $20/hr studio, where
the guy didn't touch my guitar sound, and it's the best recording of
my guitar i've ever gotten.
Conclusion, tell the engineer, "THIS IS THE SOUND I WANT, I don't care
what you think." Besides, you play better when you're getting the
sound you like.
--keith
Stephen Hirst
Some jazz guitar players today seem to prefer a tone that is not simply
mellow... it is extremely muffled. Saw a special with Jim Hall; loved
his playing, but the tone was amazingly muted. Why use an expensive
jazz-box and turn off all tone?
Another is my favourite player...Pat Martino. Very muffled sound. I
preferred his earlier work with that Koontz guitar. Or check out the
tone on the CD "Bar Wars".
Jack A. Zucker
stephen wrote:
>Another is my favourite player...Pat Martino. Very muffled sound. I
>preferred his earlier work with that Koontz guitar. Or check out the
>tone on the CD "Bar Wars".
Even back in the "Koontz" days he was stuffing the guitar and turning the
tone control down. I think his best tone was on the earliest recordings when
he was using an L5 or Super 400.
-Jaz
Clay Moore
Kevin Van Sant wrote:
>
> On Mon, 04 May 1998 18:19:25 GMT, bhat...@mindspring.com (Bill
> Hatcher) wrote:
>
> >will give you the traditional jazz guitar sound is the flatwounds.
> >The PUs and the guitars tend to be of less importance than the
> >flatwounds. 13-54 guage for a nice big tone!! Don't plan on playing
> >your favorite blues/rock licks!
> >
>
> the necessity to use flatwounds. In fact if you've got a nice fat,
> guitar there is little need for flatwounds to get a big round tone.
> Even with a flatwound set you've still got the same two unwound
> strings that get a lot of use. If you can get a good tone on those
> two strings then roundwounds will also sound good. If you can't then
> they won't sound very balanced with flatwounds anyway. I agree about
> heavy gauges though.
I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
Whassamatta, we don't like their tone(s)? I've been using .11s on my
Epiphone and on the Barney Kessel I used to record with, and I think
both those axes get a good jazz tone set up that way.
BTW, I used to use the heaviest gauge flats I could find back in my
early days of jazz guitar infatuation, but over the years I've switched
to lighter ones for a variety of reasons, all related to the physical.
For me I have to be practicing constantly with heavy gauges to feel
anywhere near comfortable about technique. If I don't have time to do
that I feel like a total schmuck when I pick it up. With lighter gauges
I only feel like a partial schmuck. This also relates to my back and
neck problems I've mentioned elsewhere. I need to have a somewhat less
physical axe to play so I don't aggravate these old pains.
Related, but slightly different, is the matter of legato playing. A lot
of fat string players tend to rely a whole lot on alternate picking,
because it's very hard IMO to get a decent hammer or pull-off from
telephone cables. Then there are string bends. Anyway, I'm happy with
the .11s.
Clay
TomLippinc
>
>I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
>relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
>Whassamatta, we don't like their tone(s)? I've been using .11s on my
>Epiphone and on the Barney Kessel I used to record with, and I think
>both those axes get a good jazz tone set up that way.
>
>BTW, I used to use the heaviest gauge flats I could find back in my
>early days of jazz guitar infatuation, but over the years I've switched
>to lighter ones for a variety of reasons, all related to the physical.
>For me I have to be practicing constantly with heavy gauges to feel
>anywhere near comfortable about technique. If I don't have time to do
>that I feel like a total schmuck when I pick it up. With lighter gauges
>I only feel like a partial schmuck. This also relates to my back and
>neck problems I've mentioned elsewhere. I need to have a somewhat less
>physical axe to play so I don't aggravate these old pains.
>
>Related, but slightly different, is the matter of legato playing. A lot
>of fat string players tend to rely a whole lot on alternate picking,
>because it's very hard IMO to get a decent hammer or pull-off from
>telephone cables. Then there are string bends. Anyway, I'm happy with
>the .11s.
aMEN, brother. I also started out with heavies, and found that as I became
more interested in getting a legato sound for single note stuff, the heavy
guages made it hard to not get that
choppy-picking-way-too-hard-and-playing-on-top-of-the-beat sound that has come
to make me wince (when I sound like that, anyway; there are great players who
sound sort of that way whose playing I like, though my favorites tend to lean
more toward the legato side, generally speaking). I also started lightening up
on the guages when I started trying to play chord voicings I stole from people
like Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, and McCoy Tyner. I used 11's for years,
round, flat, and half round, and found that I got a pretty good full tone with
them. I switched to primarily playing a solid body a few years back, and have
kind of been trying to go for the best of all worlds with one guitar.
Everything's a compromise, but I've been using 10's for some time now (though I
found that D'Addario makes 10.5 single strings, which I use to replace the 10
in the set.) and have been pretty happy. Not to sound like an advertisement,
but after trying many different brands, I've found that DR strings (the high
beams) seem to have the most tension of any 10's I've played (which is weird,
because the package says their strings are easier to bend than other brands).
Anyway, they seem like a good compromise and allow me to get a reasonable tone
and still bend to my heart's content, and play voicings with big stretches
without killing myself. I also echo your sentiment about the physical aspect;
recent bouts with tendonitis have made me wonder how I'd survive if I still
used heavy guages, and I also have found it easier to stomach my lame-ass
playing when I haven't been able to practice as much as I would like.
Tom Lippincott
TomLippinc
one man's trash is another man's treasure
Tom Lippincott
Karl G. Helmer
In
Article 32798 of rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz:
Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Kevin Van Sant wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 04 May 1998 18:19:25 GMT, bhat...@mindspring.com (Bill
>> Hatcher) wrote:
>>
>> >Strings---Flatwound!!!!!! Heavy guages. One of the main things that
>> >will give you the traditional jazz guitar sound is the flatwounds.
>> >The PUs and the guitars tend to be of less importance than the
>> >flatwounds. 13-54 guage for a nice big tone!! Don't plan on playing
>> >your favorite blues/rock licks!
>> >
>>
SNIP
>BTW, I used to use the heaviest gauge flats I could find back in my
>early days of jazz guitar infatuation, but over the years I've switched
>to lighter ones for a variety of reasons, all related to the physical.
>For me I have to be practicing constantly with heavy gauges to feel
>anywhere near comfortable about technique. If I don't have time to do
>that I feel like a total schmuck when I pick it up. With lighter gauges
>I only feel like a partial schmuck. This also relates to my back and
>neck problems I've mentioned elsewhere. I need to have a somewhat less
>physical axe to play so I don't aggravate these old pains.
>Related, but slightly different, is the matter of legato playing. A lot
>of fat string players tend to rely a whole lot on alternate picking,
>because it's very hard IMO to get a decent hammer or pull-off from
>telephone cables. Then there are string bends. Anyway, I'm happy with
>the .11s.
>Clay
Thanks for saying this! I've been feeling pretty pathetic here
lately with all the talk about string gauges and why you need at LEAST
12's. I've lately been playing "Better Git it in Your Soul" with 12's
on my 7-string and it was killing my hand to get those first position
F6 chords. I just figured that I needed more work to get it down, but
then picked up my Washburn Orleans with 11's and could play it fine
(and with no pain). Tone sounds good to me too. Unfortunately, I just
bought 5 sets of 12's.
The pull off thing was funny though. The opening riff on "Better Git"
uses them. I could do it fine with 12's, but then when I went to
11's I almost snapped the string. Don't know my own strength! :)
kgh
Kevin Van Sant
>I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
>relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
>Whassamatta, we don't like their tone(s)?
Well, as there is no rule about flatwounds there is also no rule about
heavy string gauges, though most players who want to get the
quintessential 50's jazz guitar tone will have more success with
heavier strings. (I think that is what this thread was once about)
But great tone is a subjective thing, and each of us hears in our
head how we envision that our guitar should sound. The tone I imagine
may not be the sound you hear, we should feel free to use whatever
strings (or guitar) are necessary to achieve that sound.
>Related, but slightly different, is the matter of legato playing. A lot
>of fat string players tend to rely a whole lot on alternate picking,
>because it's very hard IMO to get a decent hammer or pull-off from
>telephone cables. Then there are string bends. Anyway, I'm happy with
>the .11s.
I think this will vary from one guitar to the next. I have no problem
with legato playing with 14's on my 175, I've got slightly higher
action on my L-5 and that combined with the longer scale (more string
tension) makes it easier to do legato technique with 12's or 13's
Bill Hatcher
Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
>relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
I don't know for sure, but I would bet that Jim Hall tunes his guitar
down a half or maybe a whole step. Just the sound that he gets
affects my ear as a nonstandard tuning. Anyone know for sure???
Harry Avant
bhat...@mindspring.com (Bill Hatcher) wrote:
>Whew!!!! Treble full on-----I don't think so! Hard to get a good
>idea of what you consider a good Jazz tone over the internet so every
>thing printed here will be just my own opinion.
Well there are a lot of good sounding guitars out there with "treble"
full on since they don't have treble controls.
Harry
Bill Hatcher
hav...@earthlink.net (Harry Avant) wrote:
Yes but what do the controls on the amp look like. I doubt if you
will find FULL treble there!!
gi...@hotmail.com
> >I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
> >relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
> >Whassamatta, we don't like their tone(s)?
>
Jim Hall's Dee-ack-ees-toe has _really_ low action. you can even hear it in
his sound alot of the time.
Adm
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Kevin Van Sant
On Thu, 07 May 1998 18:50:52 GMT, bhat...@mindspring.com (Bill
Hatcher) wrote:
>Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
>>relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
>
>I don't know for sure, but I would bet that Jim Hall tunes his guitar
>down a half or maybe a whole step. Just the sound that he gets
>affects my ear as a nonstandard tuning. Anyone know for sure???
>
>
I don't know for sure but I would be surprised if he wasn't using
standard tuning.
Clay Moore
Bill Hatcher wrote:
>
> Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
> >relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
>
> I don't know for sure, but I would bet that Jim Hall tunes his guitar
> down a half or maybe a whole step. Just the sound that he gets
> affects my ear as a nonstandard tuning. Anyone know for sure???
Should be easy enough to figure out. He uses chords with open strings
sometimes, and if the recording is on CD there's no turntable pitch
fluctuations to worry about. I'm with Kevin; I doubt he's tuned to
anything but good ol' standard.
The above reminds me of a former student-turned-buddy who sent me a copy
of his transcription of Pat Martino's version of "Days Of Wine and
Roses." The tune is usually in F major, but he decided for some reason
that Pat was playing it in E, and transcribed it that way. I asked him
"didn't you notice bassist Richard Davis playing the open string
harmonics on his G string over the Gm7 chord during the head?" He had
not noticed.
Clay
Clay Moore
Bill Hatcher wrote:
>
> Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
> >relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
>
> I don't know for sure, but I would bet that Jim Hall tunes his guitar
> down a half or maybe a whole step. Just the sound that he gets
> affects my ear as a nonstandard tuning. Anyone know for sure???
I just checked some chords on "Inspirations and Dedications," and on the
1st tune (Whistlestop) he plays chords which contain both open Es, the
open D, and the open A (not all at once). That leaves just two strings
in question. I think it's safe to say that he's tuned to standard.
Clay
Chip Zempel
In article <6it9vh$v0c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gi...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Jim Hall's Dee-ack-ees-toe has _really_ low action. you can even hear it in
>his sound alot of the time.
Is that how it's pronounced? I heard Gary Larson (The Far Side cartoonist -
who also plays jazz guitar) talking on the radio the other day about
meeting Jimmy duh-KWIS-toe.
Chip Zempel
cze...@ns.net
ClassyLassie
This is interesting because i've always used 12's or 13's and I've
always played legato eighths, and smooth legato is something I
obsessed over. In fact I think i get a harsher attack with lighter
strings.
--keith
Bill Hatcher
How about the 60s RCA LPs with Paul Desmond? These sound down to me.
Maybe just by the time the recording was mastered, the pitch dropped
some. What do you think?
ClassyLassie
Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Bill Hatcher wrote:
>>
>> Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
>> >relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
>>
>> I don't know for sure, but I would bet that Jim Hall tunes his guitar
>> down a half or maybe a whole step. Just the sound that he gets
>> affects my ear as a nonstandard tuning. Anyone know for sure???
>
>I just checked some chords on "Inspirations and Dedications," and on the
>1st tune (Whistlestop) he plays chords which contain both open Es, the
>open D, and the open A (not all at once). That leaves just two strings
>in question. I think it's safe to say that he's tuned to standard.
>
>Clay
I transcribed "Skylark" from "Dialogues". Standard tuning all over the
place with a D7 add open B and E, and a whole open low E pedal with
some moving chords and open strings on top. (Harmonics on G# and G I
believe seal the deal). What a great intro, everyone should check it
out!
I know what you mean about his tone though, sounds like his strings
are loose or something1
-Keith ganz
Clay Moore
You are more of a manly man than I.
Clay
Clay Moore
In Italian the vowels are very distict and don't change much as they do
in English. You can sound out the words fairly easily.
"a" is AH
"e" is a long A sound, but a little flatter. Between the A sound in
"pain" and the E in "pen."
"i" is like a long E, as in "seen"
"o" is a long O, but a bit flat sometimes. Own, only, ode, zone
"u" is like the double O in soon, moon
Qu in Italian is the kw sound, like "quick" or "quiet". Ch is a K sound
in front of a vowel. So, the answer to all this is Dee-ah-KWEES-toe.
However, the Dee part is very short, almost like a duh sound.
ClassyLassie
Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Well, I hope this doesn't mean my hands will fall apart one day. My
action is pretty dern low so maybe that's the diff, because I really
don't have to press down any harder (less even) than on my Strat with
10's. I had a fret guru in NYC (forgot his name) refret my Guild
Starfire and he did a fantastic job, maybe that's the diff.
gi...@hotmail.com
In article <czempel-ya0240800...@news.ns.net>,
cze...@ns.net (Chip Zempel) wrote:
>
> In article <6it9vh$v0c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gi...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >Jim Hall's Dee-ack-ees-toe has _really_ low action. you can even hear it in
> >his sound alot of the time.
>
> Is that how it's pronounced? I heard Gary Larson (The Far Side cartoonist -
> who also plays jazz guitar) talking on the radio the other day about
> meeting Jimmy duh-KWIS-toe.
>
I've also heard it pronounced "eggs-PEN-seive"....
ADD-rum
Chip Zempel
In article <355325...@earthlink.net>, Clay Moore
<guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Chip Zempel wrote:
>>
>> In article <6it9vh$v0c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gi...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >Jim Hall's Dee-ack-ees-toe has _really_ low action. you can even hear it in
>> >his sound alot of the time.
>>
>> Is that how it's pronounced? I heard Gary Larson (The Far Side cartoonist -
>> who also plays jazz guitar) talking on the radio the other day about
>> meeting Jimmy duh-KWIS-toe.
>>
>> Chip Zempel
>> cze...@ns.net
>
>In Italian the vowels are very distict and don't change much as they do
>in English. You can sound out the words fairly easily.
>
>"a" is AH
>"e" is a long A sound, but a little flatter. Between the A sound in
>"pain" and the E in "pen."
>"i" is like a long E, as in "seen"
>"o" is a long O, but a bit flat sometimes. Own, only, ode, zone
>"u" is like the double O in soon, moon
>
>Qu in Italian is the kw sound, like "quick" or "quiet". Ch is a K sound
>in front of a vowel. So, the answer to all this is Dee-ah-KWEES-toe.
>However, the Dee part is very short, almost like a duh sound.
I guess I didn't make my question clear. As one who took a few years of
voice training, I'm familiar with Italian pronounciation, but I was
wondering how the guitar maker pronounces his _own_ name? When Gary Larson
said he knew Jimmy D'Aquisto, he (Larson) pronounced it "duh-KWIS-toe"
making it sound very Americanized. (New Yorkized, in fact.) Is that just
the way Larson, pronounces it, or is that the way D'Aquisto pronounces, it
too?
Just curious.
Chip
David C. Stephens
Kevin Van Sant wrote:
> On Thu, 07 May 1998 09:39:33 -0500, Clay Moore
> <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >I was under the impression that Jim Hall and Pat Metheny both use
> >relatively light gauge strings-- starting with an .11 on the high E.
> >Whassamatta, we don't like their tone(s)?
In JazzTimes in 1994 Hall said that he used D'Aquisto .010s flat wounds. As
a side note, I find it interesting to compare his recorded tone with the 175
and the later D'Aquisto. To me it's essentially the same tone. It's also
unique to Hall.
> Well, as there is no rule about flatwounds there is also no rule about
> heavy string gauges, though most players who want to get the
> quintessential 50's jazz guitar tone will have more success with
> heavier strings. (I think that is what this thread was once about)
> But great tone is a subjective thing, and each of us hears in our
> head how we envision that our guitar should sound. The tone I imagine
> may not be the sound you hear, we should feel free to use whatever
> strings (or guitar) are necessary to achieve that sound.
>
> >Related, but slightly different, is the matter of legato playing. A lot
> >of fat string players tend to rely a whole lot on alternate picking,
> >because it's very hard IMO to get a decent hammer or pull-off from
> >telephone cables. Then there are string bends. Anyway, I'm happy with
> >the .11s.
>
> I think this will vary from one guitar to the next. I have no problem
> with legato playing with 14's on my 175, I've got slightly higher
> action on my L-5 and that combined with the longer scale (more string
> tension) makes it easier to do legato technique with 12's or 13's.
I agree with Kevin that the ease of using .014s will vary greatly from
guitar to guitar. On my Golden Eagle with a very low action I find it very
easy to play legato with hammer-ons and pull-offs. In fact with this set up
I find the .014s rounds easier to play in most respects than .011s. With the
.011s I found myself pushing the strings all the way to the fretboard trying
to get more sustain, but with the .014s I merely have to touch them to the
frets and I get great sustain. The .014s make it easier to play chords in
tune because there's no inadvertent pushing from side to side as well as
stretching the string by pushing it to the fret board. OTOH, my Tele has a
higher action and it's much tougher to play with .014s. I'm going to lower
the action more, but if I can't get it low enough I'll probably go to .011
flats on it.
Dave
Willie K. Yee, MD
Back in the 60's I read a Down Beat article on Jim, which said he
was tuning the whole guitar down a perfect fourth to get is dark
tone.
Bill Hatcher wrote:
>
> Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I just checked some chords on "Inspirations and Dedications," and on
> the
> >1st tune (Whistlestop) he plays chords which contain both open Es,
> the
> >open D, and the open A (not all at once). That leaves just two
> strings
> >in question. I think it's safe to say that he's tuned to standard.
>
> How about the 60s RCA LPs with Paul Desmond? These sound down to me.
> Maybe just by the time the recording was mastered, the pitch dropped
> some. What do you think?
--
Willie Kai Yee, M.D.
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry
wy...@mhv.net
http://www1.mhv.net/~wyee/index.html
21 Tricor Ave.
New Paltz, NY 12561
(914) 255-0660
"We are the Universe trying to understand itself."
-- Minbari saying --
Jim Kroger
In article <3553546...@news.mindspring.com>,
STOPmu...@mindspring.com wrote:
I may bug you for his name in the future, if I move there, as I plan to.
Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ANTI SPAM: Aggravation has forced me to join the crowd. Remove the obvious to reply. We'll see how this works.
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Bill Hatcher
"Willie K. Yee, MD" <wy...@mhv.net> wrote:
>Back in the 60's I read a Down Beat article on Jim, which said he
>was tuning the whole guitar down a perfect fourth to get is dark
>tone.
>
>
These are the recordings I have been listening to all these years.
They definatly sound like the guitar is tuned down!
Willie K. Yee, MD
BTW, I am still taking nominations for the best JH tracks to list on
the Jim Hall page. The procudure is Answer the hypothetical question:
The Smithsonian Institution is updating the Smithsonian Institution
Collection of Classic Jazz up to the '90s. You have been asked to
submit ONE track that will represent Jim Hall's work in the history
of jazz. Which track (Please include album title) would you choose?
Bill Hatcher wrote:
> These are the recordings I have been listening to all these years.
> They definatly sound like the guitar is tuned down!
--
jim fleming
Chip,
What else did Larson have to say? Is he pursuing his music career? Is he
performing?
--jim
>I heard Gary Larson (The Far Side cartoonist -
>who also plays jazz guitar) talking on the radio the other day about
>meeting Jimmy duh-KWIS-toe.
>
"Patience is bitter but its fruit is sweet" - Segovia
------------------------------------------------------------------
James T. Fleming, PhD Phone: 423-974-8074(office)
Center for Environmental Biotechnology 423-974-8080(secretary)
University of Tennessee 423-974-8070(lab)
676 Dabney Hall fax: 423-974-8086
Knoxville, TN 37996-1605 e-mail: j...@utk.edu
TomLippinc
>BTW, I am still taking nominations for the best JH tracks to list on
>the Jim Hall page. The procudure is Answer the hypothetical question:
>
>The Smithsonian Institution is updating the Smithsonian Institution
>Collection of Classic Jazz up to the '90s. You have been asked to
>submit ONE track that will represent Jim Hall's work in the history
>of jazz. Which track (Please include album title) would you choose?
>
>
from what I remember, the general consensus before seemed to be "anything from
Jim Hall Live".
Tom Lippincott
Chip Zempel
Well, I was on my way to work and didn't get to hear much. I think he said
he was occasionally playing coffee house type gigs. I shoulda paid better
attention!
It was on NPR's Fresh Air with Terry Gross early last week, I think. I
thought it was interesting that he was into jazz and guitar. (Funny how
many of the people I like turn out to be into jazz!)
Chip
JFR
Jack A. Zucker wrote:
>
> This is subjective and there is no right or wrong answer.
>
> There are plenty of jazz artist's who contradict what you are saying.
>
> Metheny, Martino, Jim Hall, Ed Bickert, and many others roll off the tone
> control and IMHO get beautiful sounds out of their guitars. Of course George
> Benson, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, and many others leave their tone controls
> fully open .
>
> It's all what you like to hear.
>
> -Jaz
>
> ng tian khean wrote in message <6ikc7v$bi4$1...@columbine.singnet.com.sg>...
> >It all seems easy. To get a good 'bassy' jazz tone, roll off the treble on
> >the guitar. But in my experience, what you get is a dead muffled tone,shorn
> >off all the intricate harmonics which makes a guitar sound alive- which
> even
> >increasing the Volume doesn't rectify. IMHO its best to leave the tone
> >control full-on, and either change guitar, change pick-ups, change amp, or
> >adjust the amp. if you are not getting the tone you want
> >
> >
Yeah, I just roll it off the treble and it sounds good to me. There is
a compromise, but with heavy enough gauge strings I can still get good
highs on the top strings (>12 gauge E). Of course, I prefer at least a
semi-hollow body and a tube amp to complete the circuit and the sound.
John R>
roo7flat5
G
Chip Zempel wrote in message ...
He did the 'cover art' on the 1993 Jim Hall cd ' Something
Special',(Limelight ), a trio setting with Larry Goldings and Steve
LaSpina,produced by Gil Goldstein, and I read some time back that he was
taking a break from cartooning to concentrate on studying jazz guitar. Some
of his cartoons have jazz themes.
BTW, the 'Bleeding Gums Murphy' episode of The Simpsons was a classic.
ClassyLassie
"Willie K. Yee, MD" <wy...@mhv.net> wrote:
>BTW, I am still taking nominations for the best JH tracks to list on
>the Jim Hall page. The procudure is Answer the hypothetical question:
>
>The Smithsonian Institution is updating the Smithsonian Institution
>Collection of Classic Jazz up to the '90s. You have been asked to
>submit ONE track that will represent Jim Hall's work in the history
>of jazz. Which track (Please include album title) would you choose?
>
>
1) "My Funny Valentine" from Undercurrent- Bill Evans/Jim Hall (the
original take, which is the faster one)
Runners up- "God Bless the Child"--Sonny Rollins 'The Bridge'
and "Skylark" from Jim Hall 'Dialogues'
Paul Craig Sanwald
Willie K. Yee, MD (wy...@mhv.net) wrote:
: BTW, I am still taking nominations for the best JH tracks to list on
: the Jim Hall page. The procudure is Answer the hypothetical question:
:
: The Smithsonian Institution is updating the Smithsonian Institution
: Collection of Classic Jazz up to the '90s. You have been asked to
: submit ONE track that will represent Jim Hall's work in the history
: of jazz. Which track (Please include album title) would you choose?
:
'Without a Song' -Sonny Rollins "The Bridge"
-paul
Lawson Stone, aka Revrun Doc
Related to jazz tone, I've found something interesting.
When I play my instrument, a Heritage Golden Eagle (no tone knob)
through my Polytone with everyting set "flat" I like the sound okay.
Tweaking the EQ by raising the mids helps some, but overall the sound is
okay and I focus on the notes and phrasing.
But I always get a shock when I use a different setup. When I travel, I
take a Boss EQ pedal and a Radio Shack in-line phone-plug to WLR
converter so I can plug into PA systems. Without fail, the tone is just
better. It's thicker, there's more of the sound I hear in recordings by
Kenny Burrell or Jim Hall. The guitar has a real personality.
I have tried the Boss pedal into the Polytone, and several other amps,
but this significant tone difference doesn't appear. Almost any PA
system, from nice ones to old Bogens, deliver a sound I like a lot.
Has anyone else had this experience? Are there differences in the way PA
systems handle audio as opposed to guitar amps?
ClassyLassie
"Lawson Stone, aka Revrun Doc" <lst...@uky.campus.mci.net> wrote:
>I have tried the Boss pedal into the Polytone, and several other amps,
>but this significant tone difference doesn't appear. Almost any PA
>system, from nice ones to old Bogens, deliver a sound I like a lot.
>
>Has anyone else had this experience? Are there differences in the way PA
>systems handle audio as opposed to guitar amps?
I feel the same way. I like the way my Guild Starfire sounds plugged
through a Boss Delay pedal straight into my piece of junk 4 track. The
amp seems to inflict its will on the guitar. Turning the tone knobs
all the way down helps a little, but it's not quite the same.
-keith
Pete Kerezman
On Mon, 11 May 1998 10:48:20 -0400, in rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz,
"Lawson Stone, aka Revrun Doc" <lst...@uky.campus.mci.net> wrote:
>Related to jazz tone, I've found something interesting...
>
>Almost any PA
>system, from nice ones to old Bogens, deliver a sound I like a lot.
>Has anyone else had this experience? Are there differences in the way PA
>systems handle audio as opposed to guitar amps?
Eh, what's up doc?
Sounds like yer a good candidate for one a them newfangled "acoustic"
guitar amps that's really a small pa.
Texas Pete
Pete Kerezman (pete...@aol.com)
Bill Hatcher
"Lawson Stone, aka Revrun Doc" <lst...@uky.campus.mci.net> wrote:
>>
>Has anyone else had this experience? Are there differences in the way PA
>systems handle audio as opposed to guitar amps?
You may also be getting a buzz from the way the PA spreads out your
sound. Seems to be coming from everywhere rather than just from the
amp. I keep the treble rolled down when going through PAs. The upper
freq. horns will really accentuate fret/finger/pick type sounds.
Warren Sirota
No question for me. My Funny Valentine, from Undercurrents.
Now, the weirdest thing I ever saw Jim Hall do: at a sound check at
Yoshi's in Oakland he played Happy Trails. And sang it. One syllable
away from what it was supposed to be; i.e., instead of
Hap - py trails, to you
he sang
--- Hap py , trails to
The "py" went up to the note that the original had for "trails". He sang
at least a verse that way. It was very strange.
By the way, I've gotten to ask him several questions over the years. My
favorite (asked in 1987, before many of his own compositions had made it
onto record): "Why don't you write more songs?" His answer: "You sound
like my conscience".
> Willie K. Yee, MD (wy...@mhv.net) wrote:
> : BTW, I am still taking nominations for the best JH tracks to list on
> : the Jim Hall page. The procudure is Answer the hypothetical question:
> :
> : The Smithsonian Institution is updating the Smithsonian Institution
> : Collection of Classic Jazz up to the '90s. You have been asked to
> : submit ONE track that will represent Jim Hall's work in the history
> : of jazz. Which track (Please include album title) would you choose?
--
Yours truly,
Warren Sirota
World Wide Woodshed
http://www.worldwidewoodshed.com/
Rick Stone
Ditto, I'm using 14's on my two main guitars and the Gibson I keep in
the living room has a set of Thomastik flatwound 13's someone sent me to
try. They feel like "slinkys" waaaayyy too light.
Still, Wes used 14's and I don't think of his playing as being
particularly "choppy" and he definitely didn't pick every note. Jimmy
Raney was one of the most legato players I can think of and his strings
felt like barbed wire (he liked them real old and dead).
Rick Stone
Lawson Stone, aka Revrun Doc wrote:
> Related to jazz tone, I've found something interesting.
>
> When I play my instrument, a Heritage Golden Eagle (no tone knob)
> through my Polytone with everyting set "flat" I like the sound okay.
> Tweaking the EQ by raising the mids helps some, but overall the sound is
> okay and I focus on the notes and phrasing.
>
> But I always get a shock when I use a different setup. When I travel, I
> take a Boss EQ pedal and a Radio Shack in-line phone-plug to WLR
> converter so I can plug into PA systems. Without fail, the tone is just
> better. It's thicker, there's more of the sound I hear in recordings by
> Kenny Burrell or Jim Hall. The guitar has a real personality.
>
> I have tried the Boss pedal into the Polytone, and several other amps,
> but this significant tone difference doesn't appear. Almost any PA
> system, from nice ones to old Bogens, deliver a sound I like a lot.
>
> Has anyone else had this experience? Are there differences in the way PA
> systems handle audio as opposed to guitar amps?
Doc,
The speakers in most guitar amps just plain/simple suck. Upgrading to EV,
Altecs or JBLs will help tremendously (though I don't know if you can fit
any of the above into a Polytone cabinet.) Also, a 12" speaker is
basically a "woofer" whereas a PA system is probably using full-range
speakers with high frequency horns.
There are some really nice amps for acoustic guitar out there now though. I
was in Sam Ash a couple months ago and someone was trying out one (which I
unfortunately can't remember the name of) and it sounded incredible. It was
also reasonably small (I think it had one 8" speaker and a high frequency
horn) but it cost about $1,000.
mik...@worldnet.att.net
without a song, from "The Bridge"
jim's communication with Sonny on this album is brilliant, not to
mention some excellent comping.
On Sat, 09 May 1998 06:27:08 -0400, "Willie K. Yee, MD" <wy...@mhv.net>
David C. Stephens
Rick Stone wrote:
> Lawson Stone, aka Revrun Doc wrote:
>
> > Related to jazz tone, I've found something interesting.
> >
> > When I play my instrument, a Heritage Golden Eagle (no tone knob)
> > through my Polytone with everyting set "flat" I like the sound okay.
> > Tweaking the EQ by raising the mids helps some, but overall the sound is
> > okay and I focus on the notes and phrasing.
> >
> > But I always get a shock when I use a different setup. When I travel, I
> > take a Boss EQ pedal and a Radio Shack in-line phone-plug to WLR
> > converter so I can plug into PA systems. Without fail, the tone is just
> > better. It's thicker, there's more of the sound I hear in recordings by
> > Kenny Burrell or Jim Hall. The guitar has a real personality.
> >
> > I have tried the Boss pedal into the Polytone, and several other amps,
> > but this significant tone difference doesn't appear. Almost any PA
> > system, from nice ones to old Bogens, deliver a sound I like a lot.
> >
> > Has anyone else had this experience? Are there differences in the way PA
> > systems handle audio as opposed to guitar amps?
>
> Doc,
>
> The speakers in most guitar amps just plain/simple suck. Upgrading to EV,
> Altecs or JBLs will help tremendously (though I don't know if you can fit
> any of the above into a Polytone cabinet.) Also, a 12" speaker is
> basically a "woofer" whereas a PA system is probably using full-range
> speakers with high frequency horns.
I agree with this totally. However, a new JBL will cost as much as your Polytone
is worth (about $380). I put a used 15" JBL in my Mini Brute IV with good
success, but lost a little headroom because that particular speaker was 8 ohms,
replacing a 4 ohm.
Another difference is the power of a PA system in relation to the speaker
efficiency is very high (horns are very efficient), so that any changes in the
input translate into noticeable changes in the output.
> There are some really nice amps for acoustic guitar out there now though. I
> was in Sam Ash a couple months ago and someone was trying out one (which I
> unfortunately can't remember the name of) and it sounded incredible. It was
> also reasonably small (I think it had one 8" speaker and a high frequency
> horn) but it cost about $1,000.
If it had a 10" speaker I would guess that this was an SWR "California Blond".
If so, I agree that this would be an attractive speaker for many people. It gets
a nice "jazz" tone and the horn can be turned on and off to suit your situation.
The street price on the SWR is about $700.
My favorite, I just bought one, is the Webb 225 watt 6-14 GP with a 15", 4 ohm
JBL (also available with a 12" JBL or if you want to save $300, a 12" or 15"
Eminence like those in the Evan). The Evans has it all, efficiency, premium
speaker, power and a very flexible pre amp section. I guarantee you'll like the
sound with your GE.
Still, even at 45 to 60 lbs, I doubt that any of these rigs will substantially
improve on your travel rig. It sounds like a sterling idea to save a lot of
travel weight. My Webb is fantastic for gigs around town, but I want to check
out your PA rig for situations where I might use it.
Dave
Gil Plantinga
>>was tuning the whole guitar down a perfect fourth to get is dark
>>tone.
I don't know if Jim did exactly that, though I wouldn't be surprised if he
had experimented (inhaled?)
I do know that in '72 he told me that to get the right flat-wound guages he
would buy medium (probably .013-.056) string sets and use them "moved over"
a fourth, i.e. throwing away the low E, using the A in its place, swapping
the D-string for the A-string etc., and finishing off with a very light
high E (.010 ?)
Last summer I spoke with him at the Vanguard and asked him about the plain
(unwound) 3rd (G, and tuned to G) string and he says he just buys a
relatively heavy, by rock standards, unwound string to replace the G in and
otherwise standard set of flats. He definitely likes light guage strings
"for their dark sound" contrary to the heavy strings most guys put on their
jazz boxes.
In the '70s I sometimes strung my L-5 CES with a set of D'Aquisto "Rock and
Roll" flatwounds that had a plain third, specifically because I was into
Jim's sound. Of course I never got "Jim's sound" but I did dig my sound set
up that way. However, being a very high-strung dude -- too much energy that
is, I found it difficult to control the intonation even though the guitar
was set up perfectly. It took a great deal of restraint and consequently
concentration. I haven't seen those D'Aquisto r&r sets in ages.
Today my main axe is a '62 ES-175 with a PAF (to say 'single PAF' would be
redundant because if it's got 2 pickups it's a 175-D), and I use the
D'Adarrio Chrome .011's. I do get *that* sound. When I'm not playing
through a board I use a new Polytone MiniBrute II. My only effects, or
should I say all of my effects, are from an Eventide DSP-4000 with a GTR
library PCMCIA card. The Eventide is controlled (patch and parameter
changes) by a Mac which I never take to gigs because I don't do gigs
anymore. As discussed in another thread, I *never* let an engineer screw
with my sound at the board -- he can take his highs and stick them up his
butt. I do like the highs and transients I get from the limited acoustic
sound of the 175 and the pick noise miced and mixed in with the direct
signal when recording.
I don't want to revive the carved spruce vs. laminated maple or floating
vs. stuck-in-a hole-in-the-top threads but the 175 definitely is the way I
go. I have a '53 L-5C with a retro-fitted (but still old, and still Gibson)
Johnny Smith pickup; it has a tone control knob which I roll almost all the
way off, but I usually play it without an amp. I string it .013-.056,
round-wound. I've also got a '36 D'Angelico Excel (big sh*t-eating grin)
which I ordinarily string with Bronze .012's. But the other day I put a set
of the Chromes (.011) on it and she really sings. Just like Jim. (I wish).
My next move will be to try a plain third on the 175. But the axe is
presently all original and near-mint and I'm sure the original wooden
saddle will have to be stored away and I'll have to buy or get a new one
carved to get the intonation right. Back in '72 when Jim was "moving his
strings over" he was still playing his venerable 175 (though with a pickup
Attila Zoller made for him, as opposed to the P-90 you hear on
"Undercurrent"). I don't recall what he had for a bridge, though I think by
that time he had replaced the fingerboard with an ebony board made by
D'Aquisto.
--
Gil Plantinga
New Paltz, NY
Chip Zempel
Along these same lines, there was a thread here a month or two back about
what amps to use for vocalist and guitarist together. Besides PAs, keyboard
amps are also good full-range systems, and some that were discussed were
the Roland KC series (100, 300, and 500, I think?) and Samson KA-100. These
are all relatively small, relatively light combo amps. There are also some
acoustic guitar amps that are small, full range, and usually have a mic
input.
For more of a "guitar" tone, you could maybe run your guitar through a
amp/cabinet simulator or EQ, as Lawson Stone mentioned in his original
post.
In article <35583E92...@ibm.net>, "David C. Stephens"
dusd...@knowspaam.amsn.com
Bill Hatcher wrote in message <3553d48c...@news.mindspring.com>...
>"Willie K. Yee, MD" <wy...@mhv.net> wrote:
>
>>Back in the 60's I read a Down Beat article on Jim, which said he
>>was tuning the whole guitar down a perfect fourth to get is dark
>>tone.
>>
>>
>They definatly sound like the guitar is tuned down!
Anyone know what gauge strings he used? I would imagine the stings could get
pretty slinky tuned that low.
Any other Jim Hall equipment would also be appreciated, if anyone knows some
of his gear (preferably in the early to mid 60's).
Dan
Frank Hudson
In article <35542F7C...@mhv.net>, wy...@mhv.net says...
> BTW, I am still taking nominations for the best JH tracks to list on
> the Jim Hall page. The procudure is Answer the hypothetical question:
>
> The Smithsonian Institution is updating the Smithsonian Institution
> Collection of Classic Jazz up to the '90s. You have been asked to
> submit ONE track that will represent Jim Hall's work in the history
> of jazz. Which track (Please include album title) would you choose?
>
1. My Funny Valentine (Undercurrents)
2. Without A Song (The Bridge)
--Frank Hudson
remove "x" when replying
Rosie666
>Today my main axe is a '62 ES-175 with a PAF (to say 'single PAF' would
>be
>redundant because if it's got 2 pickups it's a 175-D), and I use the
>D'Adarrio Chrome .011's. I do get *that* sound.
A fine setup .. I do the same, except the .013 D'Addario's, although I like the
sound of the .011 set's G string better (I use that on the Fenders).
Boerge Soleng
In article <MPG.fc2c569f...@news.mr.net> fhu...@mpr.org (Frank Hudson) writes:
n:
>>
>> The Smithsonian Institution is updating the Smithsonian Institution
>> Collection of Classic Jazz up to the '90s. You have been asked to
>> submit ONE track that will represent Jim Hall's work in the history
>> of jazz. Which track (Please include album title) would you choose?
>>
>I hate to sound like a broken record but in very close order:
I'm not sure, but one thing that struck me when listening to The Bridge was
that "God Bless the child" was really going somewhere! I've heard a zillion
takes on this tune, and it never really made any impact on me, just a
worn-out and somewhat dated piece to my ears. Then suddenly I heard this
version on "The Bridge", and the tune is just beautiful. A strange experience!
Boerge Soleng, boe...@vinn.no
__________________________________________________________________
"Nice touch!" (Miles Davis about Herbie Hancock)
Bill Hatcher
<dusd...@KNOWSPAAM.amsn.com> wrote:
>Any other Jim Hall equipment would also be appreciated, if anyone knows some
>of his gear (preferably in the early to mid 60's).
He used one of those ancient Gibson amps with 2 speakers that were
different sizes. If or get the model number but the speaker
configuration was I believe one 12" and one 6".
Bill Hatcher
gilp...@nospam.earthlink.net (Gil Plantinga) wrote:
igh E (.010 ?)
I don't recall what he had for a bridge, though I think by
>that time he had replaced the fingerboard with an ebony board made by
>D'Aquisto.
Yes. I forgot about that. I remember seeing pics of that on some
record covers.
Clay Moore
Bill Hatcher wrote:
>
> Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I just checked some chords on "Inspirations and Dedications," and on the
> >1st tune (Whistlestop) he plays chords which contain both open Es, the
> >open D, and the open A (not all at once). That leaves just two strings
> >in question. I think it's safe to say that he's tuned to standard.
>
> How about the 60s RCA LPs with Paul Desmond? These sound down to me.
> Maybe just by the time the recording was mastered, the pitch dropped
> some. What do you think?
Unfortunately I don't have those records. I coulc check the Bill Evans
dates though.
--
Clay Moore
If the man doesn't believe as we do, we say he is a crank, and that
settles it. I mean, it does nowadays, because now we can't burn him.--
Mark Twain
Kevin Van Sant
<guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Bill Hatcher wrote:
>>
>> Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >I just checked some chords on "Inspirations and Dedications," and on the
>> >1st tune (Whistlestop) he plays chords which contain both open Es, the
>> >open D, and the open A (not all at once). That leaves just two strings
>> >in question. I think it's safe to say that he's tuned to standard.
>>
>> How about the 60s RCA LPs with Paul Desmond? These sound down to me.
>> Maybe just by the time the recording was mastered, the pitch dropped
>> some. What do you think?
>
I've got a couple of those Desmond/Hall records and again I'm sure
that he is using a standard tuning. The couple of tunes that I've
learned some of the guitar parts from are clearly played in a standard
tuning.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
Jazz Guitar
Check out our new J'Azure CD !!
http://www.mindspring.com/~jazure/music.html
For a comprehensive index of internet jazz resources:
http://www.pobox.com/~onestopjazz
_________________________________________
JFR
TomLippinc wrote:
>
> >BTW, I am still taking nominations for the best JH tracks to list on
> >the Jim Hall page. The procudure is Answer the hypothetical question:
> >
> >Collection of Classic Jazz up to the '90s. You have been asked to
> >submit ONE track that will represent Jim Hall's work in the history
> >of jazz. Which track (Please include album title) would you choose?
> >
> >
>
> Jim Hall Live".
> Tom Lippincott
Does anyone know if there are any plans to issue that record on CD? I
would love to hear it in my car or on my bike rides.
John R>
Rick Stone
It just dawned on me why the original poster thought that Jim Hall might
be tuning the guitar down. Jim has a tendency to play a lot of the
voicings commonly played on the 1st-4th strings on the lower string sets
(2nd-5th or sometimes 3rd-5th). It gives his comping a very thick dark
sound (along with his rolling or the treble on the guitar), and also
makes those voicings possible in a lower range (didn't the original
poster say something about thinking the guitar was tuned down a
fourth?).
--
/=====================================================\
| Rick Stone | Visit my "Jazz Guitar Homepage"|
| jaz...@inch.com | Lots of links to other guitar |
| | and music related sites! |
| 718/972-1220 | http://www.inch.com/~jazzand |
\=====================================================/
Gil Plantinga
I have learned to love the 7#9 voicing on the bottom four as he uses it in
"Whose Blues" on the "Alone Together" album with Ron Carter.
G# B# F# B X X
or:
Ab C Gb Cb X X
| 1 | | | |
2 | 3 3 | |
| | | | | |
It's like another one from Jimi (whose surname also begins with a "H")...
But I'm also a voicing freak. I have a chart of 64 different fingerings for
G7 on the guitar, each usiing one of each note (G Bb D F); some can inly
be played With two hands, Stanley Jordan style, and I've tried to cover
every possible fingering for each voicing. Someday I'll put it on a web
page,but I know there are more that I haven't yet notated. Don't ask why
anyone would want to know so many ways to play one chord...
I wouldn't refer to Jim (Hall)'s use of voicings in the lower four strings
as a "tendency." This is just stuff that all guitar players should know and
use. AKA "drop-two" voicings.
F65...@inch.com>, Rick Stone <jaz...@inch.com> wrote:
>It just dawned on me why the original poster thought that Jim Hall might
>be tuning the guitar down. Jim has a tendency to play a lot of the
>voicings commonly played on the 1st-4th strings on the lower string sets
>(2nd-5th or sometimes 3rd-5th). It gives his comping a very thick dark
>sound (along with his rolling or the treble on the guitar), and also
>makes those voicings possible in a lower range (didn't the original
>poster say something about thinking the guitar was tuned down a
>fourth
<good stuff snipped>
Tim Helmen
In article <355C37...@ix.netcom.com>, jre...@ix.netcom.com says...
"Live" is a classic which I would also love to have on CD.
My track(s) of choice might be a bit more obscure. I would go with one
of two (preferably both) from Jim Hall/Red Mitchell. This is a live
duet date (Mitchell on bass) from Sweet Basil's in 1978. A very small
but appreciative crowd, and Jim Hall at probably the most relaxed and
loose sounding as any recording of Him I've heard.
My two faves from this disc are "Fly Me To The Moon"--very witty,
swinging, and full of surprises--and "Blue Dove" a simple 3 or 4 chord
mexican folk song in which Hall shows just how beautifully he can play.
Anyone know if this is on CD? The original LP was on Artists House
AH9405.
Tim Helmen
Kevin Van Sant
One of my favorite recordings of Jim Hall is the Paul Desmond LP
"Sometimes I'm Happy" I just gave it another listen and I must
nominate "Angel Eyes" or "Poor Butterfly" for this fictitious
induction. This album as a whole certainly ranks right up there with
"Live" as perhaps the best recorded collection of Hall's guitar
playing. Beautiful, creative, and very inventive work.
BTW I understand that there is a CD boxed set of all of these
Desmond/Hall RCA session. I need to get myself to the record store.
Kevin Van Sant
oops... made a mistake: the album is called "Glad to Be Unhappy" And
damned if I didn't just go listen to again.
Michael Mann
Kevin Van Sant wrote:
> One of my favorite recordings of Jim Hall is the Paul Desmond LP
> "Sometimes I'm Happy" I just gave it another listen and I must
> nominate "Angel Eyes" or "Poor Butterfly" for this fictitious
> induction. This album as a whole certainly ranks right up there with
> "Live" as perhaps the best recorded collection of Hall's guitar
> playing. Beautiful, creative, and very inventive work.
>
> BTW I understand that there is a CD boxed set of all of these
> Desmond/Hall RCA session. I need to get myself to the record store.
>
Unfortunately that set is not available in stores. It's in the Mosaic
mail order catalog. Those are limited editions though and they may be
out of print already. I bought it a few years ago and I think it's some
of
the best Hall playing I've ever heard. It's called "The Complete Paul
Desmond Quartet with Jim Hall" (4 CDs). I was listening to it yesterday
and
the song "The Night Has a Thousand Eyes" really caught my attention.
Picking a favorite out of that collection alone is a major challenge,
there's
so much to choose from. A couple other Mosaic boxes currently available
have large doses of Jim Hall -- the Chico Hamilton box and the Jimmy
Giuffre box. (6 CDs each). But I think the Desmond set has the best
stuff from Hall from an era (early 60s) when Jim Hall wasn't making
albums under his own name.
Michael Mann
ClassyLassie
Michael Mann <ma...@uwyo.edu> wrote:
>Kevin Van Sant wrote:
>
>> BTW I understand that there is a CD boxed set of all of these
>> Desmond/Hall RCA session. I need to get myself to the record store.
>>
>
>Unfortunately that set is not available in stores. It's in the Mosaic
>mail order catalog. Those are limited editions though and they may be
>out of print already.
I've held it in my hand at Best Buy. It was 5 or 6 CDs for about $62.
David C. Stephens
Michael Mann wrote:
> Kevin Van Sant wrote:
>
> > One of my favorite recordings of Jim Hall is the Paul Desmond LP
> > "Sometimes I'm Happy" I just gave it another listen and I must
> > nominate "Angel Eyes" or "Poor Butterfly" for this fictitious
> > induction. This album as a whole certainly ranks right up there with
> > "Live" as perhaps the best recorded collection of Hall's guitar
> > playing. Beautiful, creative, and very inventive work.
> >
> > BTW I understand that there is a CD boxed set of all of these
> > Desmond/Hall RCA session. I need to get myself to the record store.
> >
>
> Unfortunately that set is not available in stores. It's in the Mosaic
> mail order catalog. Those are limited editions though and they may be
> out of print already. I bought it a few years ago and I think it's some
> of
> the best Hall playing I've ever heard.
I bought a five CD set a few weeks ago titled "The Complete Paul Desmond RCA
Victor Recordings featuring Jim Hall". It's a fantastic set with great sonics
and original cover art on the individual CD inserts. It cost me about $60. A
must have for any lover of Jim Hall.
BTW, it's also interesting to compare Jim Hall's playing to the other Desmond
albums with Ed Bickert sitting in. In some respects I prefer Bickert's
comping, but Hall's solos are beyond compare.
Dave
Brent
I bought it 3 months ago at Best Buy here in Houston. I think the price
was about 45 dollars.
> Unfortunately that set is not available in stores. It's in the Mosaic
> mail order catalog. Those are limited editions though and they may be
> out of print already. I bought it a few years ago and I think it's some
> of
JFR
I think I have this cd, but maybe it is on one of my lps that are
scattered across my room. That was a great one, in any event. Red had
something going with duets with guitar players. I just mentioned this
recently with regard to Red and Joe Beck - another great live record.
John R>