Frustration with Playing
jeffbonny
>You should warn him that this book is 90% New Age psychobabble,
>with a few interesting practice ideas hidden among the rubbish.
>It's a book to borrow and scan; not a book to invest the list price
>in.
Tom, from what I can gather you are in the minority in your opinion of
Effortless Mastery. Apparently Kenny's main points which are to relax
and be positive completely elude you. If relaxing and building self
esteem are "new age psychobabble" then bring it on. You have some
good things to say regarding certain technical and theoretical matters
but when it comes to philosophy you miss many excellent opportunities
to keep your mouth shut.
jeffb
Tom Lippincott
>Effortless Mastery. Apparently Kenny's main points which are to relax
>and be positive completely elude you. If relaxing and building self
>esteem are "new age psychobabble" then bring it on.
yeah, you can put me down for some of that new age psychobabble too. I wish
there had been a book like Effortless Mastery around when I was about 20 and
suicidal over my frustrations with music and life.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Bob Russell
jeffb>>
So if you're in the minority, you should keep your mouth shut, huh? Sounds like
some of the stuff about relaxing and being positive might have gotten past you
as well.
Bob Russell
http://members.aol.com/twangr/home.html
Pete Kerezman
Robby <rob...@javanet.com> wrote:
>Sam Smiley wrote:
>>
>> I HIGHLY recomend you read Kenny Werner's book "Efforless Mastery." It
>> will open a lot up to you.
>Ditto. In fact, if Jimmy B was serious about only wanting to play for
>money in previous thread, he might like the book too.
I think he meant that playing for money enhances his enjoyment of
playing. There's no such thing as "effortless mastery."
Texas Pete
Pete Kerezman (pete...@aol.com)
OASYSCO
>Robby <rob...@javanet.com> wrote:
>
>>Sam Smiley wrote:
>>>
>>> I HIGHLY recomend you read Kenny Werner's book "Efforless Mastery." It
>>> will open a lot up to you.
>>Ditto. In fact, if Jimmy B was serious about only wanting to play for
>>money in previous thread, he might like the book too.
I think we all know that JB's position is that sometimes it is more fun to play
when it is not required of you everywhere you turn.
> I think he meant that playing for money enhances his enjoyment of
>playing.
It certainly would mine :)
>There's no such thing as "effortless mastery."
I think the book refers to the fact that if you practice something enough, it
appears to others that you have "effortless mastery", not that the mastery is
not itself effortless - if I understand it correctly.
Greg
jeffbonny
>So if you're in the minority, you should keep your mouth shut, huh? Sounds like
>some of the stuff about relaxing and being positive might have gotten past you
>as well.
>
Quite likely you are right. Tom has however stated ad nauseum his
opinion on this book and while the first couple of times may not have
been missed opportunities the rest certainly could be viewed as such.
jeff
Lawson Stone
twa...@aol.comamspay wrote on 9/5/00 3:12 PM:
> Tom, from what I can gather you are in the minority in your opinion of
> Effortless Mastery. Apparently Kenny's main points which are to relax
> and be positive completely elude you. If relaxing and building self
> esteem are "new age psychobabble" then bring it on. You have some
> good things to say regarding certain technical and theoretical matters
> but when it comes to philosophy you miss many excellent opportunities
> to keep your mouth shut.
>
> jeffb>>
>
> So if you're in the minority, you should keep your mouth shut, huh? Sounds
> like
> some of the stuff about relaxing and being positive might have gotten past you
> as well.
>
Touche Bob!
Tom's a charter member of the club that really doesn't think the emperor has
any clothes on, and I value that club a lot. Now, where'd I put my shirt...
*****************************************************
"Go sleep it off Ike; you talk too much for a fighting man"--Wyatt Earp
Lawson Stone-Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting, Leathercraft, Horses, Old West
Mike Ellenberger
basis. Focus on jazz. Try to remember why you started
playing when you were a kid. Remember, the guitar's fun and
sound cool? And in the words of great commercial wisdom,
"Life's a jouney, enjoy the ride.".
Patrick Dorn wrote:
> I've been playing guitar off and on for almost 30 yrs. I quit playing
> for about 7 yrs. and picked it up about 3 yrs ago.. I have days where I
> wished I had never picked the guitar up I've played many different
> styles.. but prefer jazz. That is probably the problem.. I don't have
> enough time to play the way I want to. Similar to a golfer who only
> plays once a week.. I do get in practice time,but with all the great
> material out there.. It's like I dont know where to begin again. Any
> suggestions. I want to make music.. Not practice all the time.
Mike
--
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
Mark Kleinhaut
Patrick Dorn <xja...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> I've been playing guitar off and on for almost 30 yrs. I quit playing
> for about 7 yrs. and picked it up about 3 yrs ago.. I have days where
I
> wished I had never picked the guitar up I've played many different
> styles.. but prefer jazz. That is probably the problem.. I don't have
> enough time to play the way I want to. Similar to a golfer who only
> plays once a week.. I do get in practice time,but with all the great
> material out there.. It's like I dont know where to begin again. Any
> suggestions. I want to make music.. Not practice all the time.
>
>
also allow you to attract the better sidemen and hiring people better
than yourself will spur you onward. The adrenaline of playing in
front of other people will kick you to the next level.
----------------------------------------------------------
Mark Kleinhaut
Follow URL's for info and soundclips about:
my debut album "Amphora"
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
my newest album "Secrets of Three"
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
---------------------------------------------------------
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Clay Moore
>Quite likely you are right. Tom has however stated ad nauseum his
>opinion on this book and while the first couple of times may not have
>been missed opportunities the rest certainly could be viewed as such.
>jeff
Rather than re-visit my opinions on Werner's book in particular, I have a few
more suggestions for mind opening books on practice. One is something I just
read a few months ago, called, appropriately enough, "Mastery," by George
Leonard. Another is "The Warrior Athlete" by Dan Millman. Last is "The
Listening Book" by W. A. Mathieu. The first two are about learning any skill,
but have a sports/physical skill emphasis. Since playing guitar has a
substantial physical component I think these two books are extremely relevent.
Mathieu's book is an amazing little text filled with advice and anecdotes, not
just about music, although music is the forte. He has sections on practicing,
finding a teacher, and other nifty stuff.
Clay Moore --
jazz guitarist
cl...@claymoore.com
http://www.claymoore.com/
To find out where I'm performing each week, sign up on my mailing list. Send a blank e-mail to cmgigs-s...@topica.com
David Rastall
news:B5DAA43C.10FF4%lawso...@mindspring.com...
> ...Tom's a charter member of the club that really doesn't think the
emperor has
> any clothes on, and I value that club a lot.
Oh, you mean the people who don't see what they don't want to see? I know
that club. It's called the human race, if I read the fairy tale aright...
> Now, where'd I put my shirt...
Don't worry about it: we're all naked under our clothes anyway, right? ;-)
;-)
DR
Thomas F Brown
Kenny's points don't elude me at all. I just don't think they are
very profound. You summarized 90% of the book in one sentence: "Relax
and be positive." Is that worth $20 bucks? Not to me. I'm already
relaxed and positive. I did note that he has an interesting
philosophy of practicing buried among the self-help drivel,
perhaps enough ideas for a solid magazine article.
A good jazz learner's book is Hal Crook's How To Improvise,
which contains a philosophy of learning to improvise and
techniques for implementing that philosophy. Just music,
no New Age psychobabble.
Thomas F Brown
Pete Kerezman <pete...@aol.com> wrote:
> I think he meant that playing for money enhances his enjoyment of
>playing. There's no such thing as "effortless mastery."
No such thing? You need to lie down and visualize your
special space, my friend. Do some breathing, maybe.
Thomas F Brown
>opinion on this book and while the first couple of times may not have
>been missed opportunities the rest certainly could be viewed as such.
I've stated my opinion twice so far, and I will keep on stating it each
time the book is recommended. I wasted $20 on it after reading
testimonials in these ngs, and I wish someone had stepped up
and said what it was about before I placed my order.
Those who like New Age psychobabble should get it. Those who
tend towards neurosis or who lack self-confidence, and who think
that a self-help book is indicated, should get this book.
OTOH, people who are already mature, goal-oriented individuals
probably don't need 90% of what's in this book, but may want to
scan it for the interesting practicing philosophy.
David Rastall
news:8p3o3r$1hdu91$1...@news.jhu.edu...
> I've stated my opinion twice so far, and I will keep on stating it each
> time the book is recommended. I wasted $20 on it after reading
> testimonials in these ngs, and I wish someone had stepped up
> and said what it was about before I placed my order.
So you bought the book, allured by the title and a few recommendations. So
I guess you're just as gullible as all the rest, yes?
DR
Joey Goldstein
There is a religiosity to the book that I object to. Very strongly
influenced by Hinduism.
I like to keep religion amd music (and politics) separate although I
definitely think philosophy has a place in music.
Having said that, I found the book extremely insightful in many ways and
some of the anecdotes are priceless.
I've heard that Kenny Werner was already a really really great player at
the time he says he went though all these transformations though. He
makes it sound like if you do his meditations you will inevitably become
a master too but cloaked in the philosophy is the idea that everybody
already IS a master whether they can play or not. Masters of the
Universe so to speak.
The underlying message is detachment which IS needed to play well in my
experience. It is also needed so that you don't get hung up on what life
throws at you. But this idea that anybody can become a great musician is
bullshit. The attitude espoused in this book can help anybody become a
better musican but greatness is reserved for very few. That's just the
way it is folks.
All in all I'm not sorry I bought the book though.
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
Bob Russell
<< "Lawson Stone" <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:B5DAA43C.10FF4%lawso...@mindspring.com...
> ...Tom's a charter member of the club that really doesn't think the
emperor has
> any clothes on, and I value that club a lot.
<<Oh, you mean the people who don't see what they don't want to see? I know
that club. It's called the human race, if I read the fairy tale aright...>>
Huh?
Sometimes it might mean "the people who don't see what other people insist they
should see." In that regard, this "club" can be useful from time to time. One
of those people, in the right place at the right time, can help to keep some
pretty bad things from happening, which more than makes up for the times during
which they might seem to be just a pain in the ass. Personally, I'd just like
to think we can handle dissenting opinions without telling people to shut up.
This NG is usually quite civil, a rarity on Usenet.
Bob Russell
http://members.aol.com/twangr/home.html
Thomas F Brown
David Rastall <ras...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Thomas F Brown" <tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> wrote in message
>news:8p3o3r$1hdu91$1...@news.jhu.edu...
>
>> testimonials in these ngs, and I wish someone had stepped up
>> and said what it was about before I placed my order.
>
>So you bought the book, allured by the title and a few recommendations. So
>I guess you're just as gullible as all the rest, yes?
Yes. I was gullible, and I'm offering my review to other potential
victims. "Effortless mastery" is a brilliant title from a marketing
perspective. Who doesn't want something for nothing? And Kenny is
a nice piano player too, but those who play effortlessly usually
aren't good teachers. It came so easy to them that they don't
understand that others have to work at it. Kenny seems to think
it's all a mind game, because he's had chops and ears since he was
a child. However, for most of us it doesn't come so easy, especially
when you're trying to get it as an adult. Just relaxing and thinking
positive thoughts doesn't get you very far, and yet that's 90% of
Kenny's message.
Lawson Stone
Rastall at ras...@earthlink.net wrote on 9/5/00 9:33 PM:
>
> Oh, you mean the people who don't see what they don't want to see? I know
> that club. It's called the human race, if I read the fairy tale aright...
>
I've had enough conversations with Tom Brown over the several years we've
both been on this NG to know that he sees pretty well. He also has a lot of
professional knowledge and experience in the field of psychobabble!
I wonder if those who popped the $20 are really the ones who won't see what
they don't want to see, namely, they got took!
Lawson Stone
nos...@nowhere.net wrote on 9/5/00 10:51 PM:
>
> The underlying message is detachment which IS needed to play well in my
> experience. It is also needed so that you don't get hung up on what life
> throws at you. But this idea that anybody can become a great musician is
> bullshit. The attitude espoused in this book can help anybody become a
> better musican but greatness is reserved for very few. That's just the
> way it is folks.
>
> All in all I'm not sorry I bought the book though.
Maybe a pretty good standard would be: did I learn as much through this book
as I would have learned paying the equivalent amount for lessons from a
pretty good teacher?
Sometimes a fairly expensive lesson doesn't net you very much knowledge,
maybe a couple of pointers, and so one could argue that a $20 book was
"worth it" if you got one lesson's worth of good from it.
I really wouldn't know, though, since there is not a jazz guitar teacher in
my immediate area.
:-{
Lawson Stone
twa...@aol.comamspay wrote on 9/5/00 11:28 PM:
>
> Sometimes it might mean "the people who don't see what other people insist
> they
> should see." In that regard, this "club" can be useful from time to time. One
> of those people, in the right place at the right time, can help to keep some
> pretty bad things from happening, which more than makes up for the times
> during
> which they might seem to be just a pain in the ass. Personally, I'd just like
> to think we can handle dissenting opinions without telling people to shut up.
> This NG is usually quite civil, a rarity on Usenet.
>
Agreed on that. I worry sometimes because, ironically, the "new age"
philosophy types often can be the more censorious when others dare to
disagree with their sacred truth; but of course, new age philosophy affirms
that all truth is one anyhow, so why they care about disagreement is beyond
me. But it's sometimes a kind of religious zeal that I don't even see
matched in my southern fundamentalist Christian friends--and that's pretty
zealous!
Pete Kerezman
>> There's no such thing as "effortless mastery."
>
>No such thing? You need to lie down and visualize your
>special space, my friend. Do some breathing, maybe.
>
Can't i just reassess my priorities instead?
icarusi
news:39B3EB4E...@pacbell.net...
It's like I dont know where to begin again. Any
> suggestions. I want to make music.. Not practice all the time.
Where are you now with your playing? Where do you want to be with your
playing?
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Paul Craig Sanwald
:
: I wonder if those who popped the $20 are really the ones who won't see what
: they don't want to see, namely, they got took!
I for one don't see anybody 'getting took' except for tom. This book has
obviously helped a lot of people out. Obviously it's not for everyone,
and of course some people aren't going to like it.
The creative process is a weird thing to write about, newage psychobabble or
none. I recently read (part) of a book about the creative process (called
"The Path Of Least Resistance" which didn't contain (IMHO) anything even
resembling new age psychobabble, but I still thought the book's basic premises
were flawed. So much so, that I stopped reading it.
--paul
Lawson Stone
pcsa...@unity.ncsu.edu wrote on 9/6/00 9:24 AM:
To return to the original topic, I too am incredibly frustrated and
demoralized about my own playing, to the point that I'm even avoiding
practising or "noodling" just because I hate to hear myself play.
I think in my case, the absence of a teacher is really telling. When I
compare myself to recordings, of course, I fall far short. A teacher could
probably tell me where on a scale of suckdom I actually fall. But at this
point I find it painful just to play an hear my lame excuses for music.
I find I'm no longer telling people I play jazz, I just tell them I play
"those old showtunes" and try to stay away from making them think I can
actually play jazz.
It might be time to start shopping for a potential buyer for my Heritage.
Tom Walls
>It might be time to start shopping for a potential buyer for my Heritage.
>
Take it easy, Lawson. Don't sell the Heritage. Give yourself a break. Don't
play if you don't feel like playing. Music should enrich you: not oppress you.
Wait until the inspiration comes to you. It will.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Mark Kleinhaut
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
(snip)
> I think in my case, the absence of a teacher is really telling. When
I
> compare myself to recordings, of course, I fall far short. A teacher
could
> probably tell me where on a scale of suckdom I actually fall.
Hi Lawson, we've talked about this before and it seems that you are
still unable to find a teacher down there where "the cars are on blocks
and the houses on wheels". (didn't think I'd rememeber that one, did
ya?). Anyway, before even thinking of giving up, why not try a
correspondence program for private instruction. Joey Goldstein offers
one as does Rick Stone, and I'm pretty sure that there are a few others
advertised in Just Jazz Guitar Magazine. If you want my advise, I'd
say send Joey or Rick an email today and give that a try.
David Rastall
> I find I'm no longer telling people I play jazz, I just tell them I play
> "those old showtunes" and try to stay away from making them think I can
> actually play jazz.
>
> It might be time to start shopping for a potential buyer for my Heritage.
No way! Don't go sellin' that guitar!
I got to the point of desperation myself a while ago, where I didn't think I
would ever "actually play jazz. Jimmy Bruno's video has given me a lot of
good ideas (no psychobabble in there at all! :-) ). It's also good advice
to contace the guys who give correspondence lessons. I always find that
other human contact makes the path more manageable.
David R
davi...@mindspring.com
don't sell the guitar just yet. We all have had periods where we don't
believe we have a talent and won't progress any further. Sometimes the next
step in a level of skill takes quite a period before you get there. If I
were you, I'd just put the guitar down for a week or two and at some point
the inspriation will return....especially when you hear some great recorded
guitar playing! See if that doesn't work.
David K
in article QtPt5.25915$K4.11...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net, David
Rastall at ras...@earthlink.net wrote on 9/7/00 9:36 AM:
icarusi
> Yes. I was gullible, and I'm offering my review to other potential
> victims. "Effortless mastery" is a brilliant title from a marketing
> perspective. Who doesn't want something for nothing? And Kenny is
> a nice piano player too, but those who play effortlessly usually
> aren't good teachers. It came so easy to them that they don't
> understand that others have to work at it. Kenny seems to think
> it's all a mind game, because he's had chops and ears since he was
> a child. However, for most of us it doesn't come so easy, especially
> when you're trying to get it as an adult. Just relaxing and thinking
> positive thoughts doesn't get you very far, and yet that's 90% of
> Kenny's message.
That reminds me of a style of teaching a while back where the teacher
just answered questions put by the pupils, relying on the pupils to
ask sufficient questions to gain the knowledge.
I was once showing a graduate teacher of Geography some guitar stuff
and I though I'd shown him what I was doing, but he was able to pick
out lots of stuff I was doing but didn't realise, and which made the
difference between how I sounded and how he sounded.
Icarsui
fpl
i get like that myself sometimes but you know what....i couldn't sell my
guitar if i tried. I play a telecaster because i don't feel i can
justify buying an archtop. Last year my wife told me to go ahead and get
one from a builder here in the UK and i didn't do it because i thought i
wouldn't be able to do it justice.
Boy was that a mistake! our first baby is on the way so i guess i'll
have to wait a little longer. i'll keep saving in the meantime, maybe
next year.
Aim large with your playing, here's something to put it in perspective:
i used to compare myself with the people i listened to Wes, Pat, Charlie
Christian etc. they all had great technique and played at fast tempos,
and then it occured to me one day. People like Dizzy, Coltrane etc are
great with great technique, but, one of my all time favourites is Gerry
Mulligan.... just cause he doesn't play like a machine gun doesn't mean
he isn't as good as the rest.
Everyone can play a nice mid tempo melody !
Remember, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a step
or in the words of a famous fictional dj, 'be open to your dreams
people, embrace the distant shore, our mortal journey is over all too
soon'.
Don't stop, just slow down a little,
fpl.
Thomas F Brown
Tom Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
>>It might be time to start shopping for a potential buyer for my Heritage.
>
>Take it easy, Lawson. Don't sell the Heritage. Give yourself a break. Don't
>play if you don't feel like playing. Music should enrich you: not oppress you.
> Wait until the inspiration comes to you. It will.
I second that. Sometimes a total break from music can be the most
inspiring thing you could do, and results in astonishing growth
while you're not even playing.
Other strategies would be to forget jazz and learn some classical
pieces, or just strum and sing Hank Williams songs. Hear that
lonesome whipporwhill...
Robby
(snips)
>
> I was once showing a graduate teacher of Geography some guitar stuff
> and I though I'd shown him what I was doing, but he was able to pick
> out lots of stuff I was doing but didn't realise, and which made the
> difference between how I sounded and how he sounded.
>
> Icarsui
>
> --
meaning...
John S. Clifford
> I find I'm no longer telling people I play jazz, I just tell them I play
> "those old showtunes" and try to stay away from making them think I can
> actually play jazz.
>
> It might be time to start shopping for a potential buyer for my Heritage.
Lawson - If you don't like what you're playing, maybe you're not playing what you
like.
Now before you snort in disgust, think about that a minute - it's not as vapid as it
sounds. So many musicians, writers, artists get discouraged because they can't seem
to make themselves do what they think they OUGHT to be doing. Actually, it's the
same for business people, lawyers, teachers, bus drivers, etc. Your music should be
an honest expression of yourself - of who and where you are RIGHT NOW. We all think
it would be real fine to be able to play like Pat Metheny or Jimmy Bruno. Girls
would swoon. Guys would be jealous. Record executives would return our phone
calls. But that's not us, is it? At least not right now. No reason to panic.
Don't sell the Heritage. Don't condemn yourself, because then you will hide from
yourself, and that will prevent you from ever figuring out who you are.
OK, are you ready to buy my new-age self-help book now? It's only $19.95, plus
shipping and handling. BUT WAIT - that's not all! If you order now, you'll also
receive a 5 x 8 color photo of me sitting in a camp chair by a stream in Michigan -
suitable for framing!
Good luck, man.
John C.
pe...@mailbox.bellatlantic.net
kidding. Actually you couldn't give it to me, you need it. It's been my experience
that just when I feel like quitting, I'll make a big stride in the right direction.
My wife's joke around the house is " Oh yeah, you're really sounding rusty now!"
Willie K. Yee, MD
fun, and learned a bit, but mostly I was bummed out from listening to
the other guitarists. There were guys all the way from funksters who
couldn't handle more than three chord changes per tune to skilled
professionals. What I saw in my own playing was my incredible
_sloppiness_. After five years of lessons and three years with a big
band I can't play a two octave scale without clamming at least one note.
My rhythm and timing lack a solid groove. There are plenty of other
limitations to my playing, but they would all be tolerable if I could
just play CLEANLY and in the groove.
So since I have been back, I have been back to working on basics,
playing exercises, licks and heads, _slowly_, cleanly, one or two
measures at a time if necessary. On the Zen guitar level, it is really
about _focus_, being aware of each and every note, and maintaining
concentration.
I am still a bit bummed, but I feel like I am going somewhere. Any
advice would be appreciated.
"Go sleep it off Lawson; you talk too much for a playing man"--
apologies to Wyatt Earp
--------
Lawson Stone wrote:
>
> To return to the original topic, I too am incredibly frustrated and
> demoralized about my own playing, to the point that I'm even avoiding
> practising or "noodling" just because I hate to hear myself play.
>
> It might be time to start shopping for a potential buyer for my Heritage.
>
--
Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/~wyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry
http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band
http://www.bigbluebigband.com
Remove "DONTSPAM" from return address to reply.
OASYSCO
At my level, I can't give you any advice, except to say that the most endearing
quality of one of my favorite guitarists, Barney Kessel, was that he would hit
clams now and then and sometimes played "sloppily" compared to some of his
contemporaries. Even so, his lead lines were unreal and had so much... SOUL!
Not bad for a white guy with goofy, horn-rimmed glasses.
Personally, I prefer clams and a little sloppiness to over-produced,
over-rehearsed playing. It tells me that there is a person behind the
instrument. Then again, I've been playing long enough to know that no matter
how good a guitarist becomes, he is still aware of his shortcomings even if no
one else can tell. But it is those shortcomings that makes music an art! (Hey,
if what I just said is true, then I am probably the most artful guitarist on
the face of the planet as I have shortcomings a plenty!)
Greg
Jeff Gower
myself before, so here goes anyway.......
We all have something to offer musically, IF we focus on finding out what
that is and focus on developing it. We have to be honest with ourselves
and really listen and have others listen to us and be open with us, not
merely so we can be overly analytical and critical of ourselves, but so
that we can determine what our strengths are. Like Jimmy wrote a while
back, the trick is finding out what we can do better than anyone else. I
think that is the general idea - find your strengths, your VOICE, what you
have to offer, and work on developing THAT.
For some reason, many guitarists want to "sound like so-and-so", because
they believe that is how a jazz guitarist "should" sound. They want to
sound like Jim Hall, Pat Metheny, Joe Pass, John McLaughlin, or whomever.
But why? There are already plenty of very good guitarists that try their
damnedest to sound like these guys, and some succeed very well. That is
well and good, but it definitely doesn't mean that you have to play and
sound like these guys to be "convincing" (I hate that over-used qualifier)
as a player. Most listeners will appreciate any refreshing or new voice
you have to offer - my most frequent compliment is just that, that it is
"so refreshing to hear your style of playing, very unique", etc.. I'll
take that compliment any day over "you sound like so-and-so".
Bottom line.......Most players have X hours per day to devote to guitar,
especially if they have jobs and family. Most players will never be
master bebop players or master classical players. But you can damned well
find your own unique strengths and voice, and produce some very fine music
that you and others will enjoy. Don't give up!!
My $0.02,
Jeff
In article <39B8BC82...@bestweb.net>, "Willie K. Yee, MD"
<wyeeN...@bestweb.net> wrote:
Lawson Stone
Many thanks to all for the outpouring of encouragement and fine advice.
What really hooked me into jazz in the beginning was chord-melody. What I've
decided to do in the short-run, is go back through all the tunes I know and
simply work on playing the "heads" with as much care and good phrasing as
possible, and as many ways as I can think of.
For somebody who has very few jazz-guitarists to talk to face to face, this
NG has been a life-saver for me.
Thanks all
Paul kirk
help
the "serious artists" that post here to understand where some of us amateurs are
coming from. The bottom line is that for many of us "you sound like so-and-so"
is the prefered compliment over "your playing sounds fresh".
Developing one's own voice is great for someone who realized at an early age
that they
would become a jazz musician, had mastered the bebop language (or whatever the
mainstream of their style is) by age 20, practice several hours a day, etc.
There are a lot of posters in this NG that probably fit this bill, eg jeff,
mark, clay, joey, reg, jimmyb, etc. These are the artists.
But.. lots of us (I think; in any case I speak for myself) play jazz guitar
under no illusion that we will ever add anything to the style, but for the love
of the music and the thrill of playing it competently with others, with the
goal of ocasionally being lucky enough to play (standards in jam sessions, pick
up gigs, etc) with someone good and leave a favorable impression. We will
never cut a CD except maybe an amateur jobbie on someone's CD burner. We are
the players that get derided by the artists for "saying nothing new", sounding
all alike, repeating the same old II-V-I licks that wes/benson/etc used up years
ago on all our solos. They dont understand why we bother. We dont have time to
practice more than an hour or two a day.
Usually our main goal is to be able to play bebop/standards reasonably
effortlessly, and in those rare ocasions when we can play in a duo or trio
setting, sensitively. We practice more modern ideas but not many stick deep
enough to use when we play out. Nice chord voicings mean more than polytonal
ideas. a nicely phrased bebop line at 120 bmp is more rewarding than a super
outside run at 270bpm.
In my case, I have been playing jazz guitar for 22 years, but it is a hobby,
albeit a passionate one. I go to a pretty good jam session in town, and I play
well enough and intensely enough that I got honest praise
a few times when I sat in with Melvin Rhyne and Pookie Johnson (of the old Wes
M. quintet here in indy). Playing with those guys requires nothing more than a
reasonable compentency with changes and a little fire:
and playing with them is a super thrill for me. It justifies all the practicing
I do. I play with a trio or duo ocasionally (once a month), when I listen to
my recordings I hear "generic competent bebop guitar", and I'm happy when I can
pull this off well. In my case, my ultimate goal would be to be able to fool
someone for a minute into thinking my playing was Ed Bickert's, or Wes
Montgomery.
My point is that this is the goal for many serious amateurs. Not "finding your
voice", not "breaking new ground", etc. And what is really depressing for us is
when we go out to play, a tune gets called and we stumble on the changes, play
choppy, lose the time or the form, and come off as the amateurs that we are,
even though the night before we played a great solo with BIAB on the same tune
at home. Those are the moments that make me feel like what Lawson is
describing. Why the hell practice so much if you keep sucking? For me the answer
is: because those good moments are worth it, even none of you "pros" will ever
think our playing is at all interesting.
Finally, if I instead focused all my energy on "what I do best", constructing a
"unique voice" based on my strengths, etc as suggested, it will all happen in
the isolation of my practice room, because after all to play with others
requires a minimun level of competence in the tradition. I suppose that's OK,
but it isnt nearly as much fun, for me anyway.
Paul Kirk
Wound3rd
Don't think that some of these "pros" don't ever wish they had someone else's
talent.
No, I could never practice 23 hours a day and just because someone else does,
it really doesn't mean it's the healthiest thing for them either.
Ever run into a musical genius who has a drool control problem? They're out
there.
For some, the "dedication" is no more than an escape; just a bit more
impressive than
a drug dependancy.
There are many extremely talented people out there who have no dreams of
super-stardom but continue to strive to be better than the monster that they
already are. If they were in the biz, I can see the need to be competitive but
if this is truly just "pleasure" I don't get it.
There are 22 hours of the day left after that 2 hour concert. If there is no
happiness in that time maybe one should be playing 24 hours a day.
If it's a hobby, then fine! I have an appreciation for my lack of talent,my
G.A.S,and all those guys who are better than me.
If I practiced 24 hours a day I couldn't have posted my opinion, now could I?
;-)
Bob
Jeff Gower
> But.. lots of us (I think; in any case I speak for myself) play jazz guitar
> under no illusion that we will ever add anything to the style, but for
the love
> of the music and the thrill of playing it competently with others, with the
> goal of ocasionally being lucky enough to play (standards in jam
sessions, pick
> up gigs, etc) with someone good and leave a favorable impression. We will
> never cut a CD except maybe an amateur jobbie on someone's CD burner. We are
> the players that get derided by the artists for "saying nothing new",
sounding
> all alike, repeating the same old II-V-I licks that wes/benson/etc used
up years
> ago on all our solos. They dont understand why we bother. We dont have
time to
> practice more than an hour or two a day.
Well, let me just say that I think you missed my point entirely, Paul!
That was probably my fault. Let me try again.
I know exactly how it feels to work so hard at being good enough to do a
good job at a jazz pick-up gig, and get there and fall flat on your face.
Or what it is like to practice a classical piece until I am competent with
it, but by then I am completely sick of the thing, and then come
performance time to flub it all to hell. Or to play great one night at a
gig, only to feel like I have never picked up a guitar the next night's
gig. And on and on and on. We ALL know how that feels, and we all know
how it feels to ask ourselves "why bother?!". It was this sentiment that
I was trying to address, and had NOTHING AT ALL to do with
"pro-vs-amateur" or "artist-vs-hobbyist" or any of that nonsense. It was
addressed towards those who feel that since they continually falter in
certain settings and with certain styles, that perhaps they should focus
on their own musical voice rather than throwing up their hands and
forsaking the guitar completely.
My main point was this: part of what makes music-making truly enjoyable
FOR ME is the fact that I have my own voice, my own style, which I enjoy
playing and which others enjoy hearing. I was suggesting that all players
work to determine their strengths and develop them. Not necessarily so
that they can fit in well with a pick-up jazz gig, or fit in with a
guitar/flute classical duo, or whatever - in fact, having your own style
won't do diddly-squat in these applications - you may be able to express
yourself more personally, but you still gotsta know the stuff you need to
know and be competent enough to perform in these settings before you can
even BEGIN to apply your own voice to them.
> In my case, I have been playing jazz guitar for 22 years.......
>I go to a pretty good jam session in town.........
> and playing with them is a super thrill for me........
Then you are not the type of person to whom my email was addressed at all.
> My point is that this is the goal for many serious amateurs. Not "finding your
> voice", not "breaking new ground", etc.
I never said anything about "breaking new ground", did I? I said to find
your strengths, and develop them in such a way to come up with your own
voice. I think that this should be a priority for all musicians,
regardless of their level. And it doesn't take 22 hours a day, as you
suggest. I used to teach lessons full-time, and some of the most moving,
genuine playing I ever heard would come from some of those first-year
students who played me their (required by me) composition of the week - I
could listen to some of them all day long, because they were not trying to
"sound like" anyone but themselves. Had I heard what they were playing
before? Sure. Their means were limited. But the end was still music to
my ears. I think as many musicians get further along, they forsake that
inner voice they have and focus too much on how they "should" sound,
etc.. That was my point.
> Finally, if I instead focused all my energy on "what I do best",
constructing a
> "unique voice" based on my strengths, etc as suggested, it will all happen in
> the isolation of my practice room
Alot will, yes (just like most of any practicing will), but that doesn't
mean it has to reside there forever.
Jeff
--
www.jeffgower.com
Paul kirk
Jeff Gower wrote:
>
>
> Well, let me just say that I think you missed my point entirely, Paul!
> That was probably my fault. Let me try again.
No most probably its my fault. To some extent I was also trying to respond to
my interpretation of the frustration Lawson is expressing, and also to a message
you (I think?) posted last week which i mostly didn't understand but I thought you
suggested that the extent of improvisation in jazz is oversold, and that a lot of
what is being played is just a formulaic repeat of ground broken a long time ago.
My suspicion is that Lawson's frustration is similar to the one I feel ocasionally,
which is, I try hard to be a decent imitator of those guitar players I like to
listen to, but I rarely feel like I'm getting close. If I have or ever will have a
"musical voice", it wont be because I'm trying to-my point is specifically that I
am not trying to, I'm more interested in imitating someone else's well enough to
reap some of the rewards (playing out) that come with a certain level of
competence.
In contrast, I have been trying to learn to play the piano for a couple of years
very casually, and in that context I never feel any frustration because I have no
goals to ever play with others on the piano: and so I can just relax and tinker
around with purely personal sounds, lingering on a voicing that sounds good, etc.
So to some extent I agree with your observations in this case. Its not that I have
a "voice" that would mean anyting to anyone other that me, its just that I have fun
with the limited skills I have, probably like the students you describe below.
Paul Kirk
Lawson Stone
wrote on 9/8/00 12:26 PM:
> I have a n oposing take on this issue, one that tends to be unpopular, but
> may
> help
> the "serious artists" that post here to understand where some of us amateurs
> are
> coming from. The bottom line is that for many of us "you sound like so-and-so"
> is the prefered compliment over "your playing sounds fresh".
>
I about drenched my keyboard with a mouth full of coffee reading this
because a huge laugh just exploded out of my mouth.
Paul, this post should be bronzed. You have said in one message what so many
of us hobby/hack players really feel. Once when I was playing in a
bookstore, a guy came over and said "When I came in, I thought they were
playing Wes Montgomery over the store's sound system." I lived off of that
compliment for about 3 years!
You've really put my own musical aspirations into very clear and forcible
expression. Thanks!
Jeff Gower
<lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> in article 39B91324...@indiana.edu, Paul kirk at pk...@indiana.edu
> wrote on 9/8/00 12:26 PM:
>
> > The bottom line is that for many of us "you sound like so-and-so"
> > is the prefered compliment over "your playing sounds fresh".
>
> Paul, this post should be bronzed. You have said in one message what so many
> of us hobby/hack players really feel.
Weren't you the one whining about how frustrated you are with your
playing, and how you wanted to sell your guitar and give it all up? And
you think Paul's post summed it all up for ya, eh? Well, pardon my
frankness, but that explains alot.
> Once when I was playing in a
> bookstore, a guy came over and said "When I came in, I thought they were
> playing Wes Montgomery over the store's sound system." I lived off of that
> compliment for about 3 years!
But did you sound like Wes or not? Or would any big-name comparison have
sufficed? At a gig last week, a guy told me I sounded just like Kenny
Burrell. I sound nothing like Burrell. Not to mention I was playing
fingerstyle classical guitar at the time. But I smiled and thanked him
anyway. Later the same night, a table of people praised me for "how rare
it is to hear someone play guitar that way - you have a very unique sound"
and hired me on the spot for a private gig, and still later two guys asked
for lessons "to show me how to play guitar that way". Perhaps you and
Paul would have preferred the Burrell comment - not I, believe me.
> You've really put my own musical aspirations into very clear and forcible
> expression.
Oh well, to each his own. It's your game to play as you choose. If your
musical aspiration is to sound like X, Y, or Z, all the best to ya.
Jeff
--
www.jeffgower.com
Steve Olson
Hi Guys,
I'm just kinda lurking and have been following this thread (cause I
can definitely relate to the frustration), so I thought I'd throw in
my bit,
While I agree that the take described by both Paul and Lawson is very
common among players - I'm one myself and I often have felt all
these same feelings, but I think THIS is the attitute that is the
root cause of the frustration and burnt out feelings we all have from
time to time.
I really think Jeff is right in his belief in striving to find your
own voice on the instrument. For years I looked at it like "Man, I
practice and practice and still suck!" When am I ever going to get
close to sounding like (whomever I was listening to at the time). I
finally came to the realization that basically I'm NEVER going to
sound like Jimmy B, Wes, Pat M, or anybody else, but the best thing
for me is to really concentrate on MY strengths and try to excentuate
the positive (as a certain dancing bear use to tell us).
For me, I came to realize that trying to sound just like some other
great master is sort of like some chick that's kinda plain looking,
she's allright, but not great, One day she see's a picture of Michelle
Phieffer (sp?) and decides, "God if I could just look like her I'd be
so happy and get all the guys!" so she gets out her emery boards and
starts filing away at her mug, trying to take a little off here, shape
a little over there, she keeps working at it year after year until in
the end she just has a bloody mess on her hands and instead of getting
closer to her ideal, she's basically botched what was already working
for her. Maybe she would have been better off spending the years just
concentrating on her strengths- working out, getting her head
together, being confident with herself, etc. and in the end, people
would be looking at her and saying "wow there goes a really beautiful
lady!"
I guess I just finally realized that even if I practiced 24 hrs a day,
I still couldn't play like Jimmy, or Wes, or Clay, or ............
whomever, but when I finally (tried) to drop that mindset and just
really get deep into MY playing, a lot of the frustration fell away. I
think we get this a lot from the nonplayers that are always talking
about "oh man, that cat plays just like Wes, or Stevie Ray (hey I'm in
Texas, we get a lot of the STEVIERAY!!!!! around here)". We see the
admiration they have for the copyist and decide, maybe even
subconciencely, that that is what we want from music also, the
admiration of someone else saying "wow he sounds just like Wes".
Well what else is a nonplaying person going to say when hearing a
young or unrecognized player. They only have a reference of somebody
they've already heard - the chances of them coming up to you and
saying "wow, I came in here and thought it was a Lawson Stone CD they
were playing, but it's really you live" are pretty slim (unless you
quite popular around your area ).
Musicians (for the most part) are very goal oriented people. I want to
play that song! I want to play it now! and I want to play it this
fast! twiddlytwiddlytwiddlytwiddly!
I've fought this attitude my whole musically life also. Something
snapped for me one time putting a jigsaw puzzle together. It's always
been a family tradition around the holidays to just have a puzzle
going somewhere in the house and everybody does a little bit on it
whenever the mood strikes as we all go about whatever else is going
on. Well one year I was not much on the family thang so I basically
"lost" myself in the puzzle. When I first started, god there were all
these pieces, how the hell can anybody find any two pieces out of this
whole PILE of pieces that fit together. But I kept searching and
pretty soon I found a couple that fit, then I found a couple more.
Then pretty soon I had the whole border done. Then after awhile I
found that I was looking at the colors differently. What a first
looked like a bunch of red, now started taking on different shades and
hues, and things started fitting together and it got easier and easier
to find the pieces I was looking for. Before I knew it the whole damn
puzzle was done! Then I immediately wanted to start another one cause
it was so much fun just losing myself in the process.
I thought about this and wondered why putting the puzzle together -
which was a very tedious way of spending time, was so much fun but
practicing - which to me at the time was also very tedious, was never
near as much fun. Well for me anyway it came down to when I put the
puzzle together I didn't concentrate AT ALL on the end product - I
didn't really care if I finished it or not, just get lost in the
process and the finished puzzle was just the result, but with playing
guitar I was always MAINLY concerned with the end product - what do I
have to do, how many times to I have to do this scale, how long do I
have to practice until I can get as good as my hero - and at the end
of the day always falling short of my goal.
Well I started to really try to take that same "puzzleing" mindset to
my practice and found that it really changed the amount of enjoyment I
got out of it. For the first time I was able to actually transcribe a
jazz solo off a record. I bought a book of transcriptions and started
working on those. I found if I kept that attitude, as soon as I
learned one, I'd get this real feeling of accomplishment and
immediately want to start working on another. I mean these are all
tedious things that I never seemed to have the patience to work on
over a period of time before. I could work on something like that for
an hour or so, maybe a couple days in a row, but would always be
focused on "when am I going to get this solo down, when am I going to
get this transcription finished" and it would just kill the
inspiration and determination for me.
So anyway (sorry this is so long)... When your feeling that
frustration with your instrument, it's really just that inner musician
in you saying "focus on the journey!" get your enjoyment in the moment
of losing yourself to the practise, and in the end you'll realise for
yourself that your a better player.
All this isn't to say that I don't still suck, and I'll get up with my
band and do a set and we'll get good response and then the next band
gets up and you hear the first strains of "Cold Shot" or some Stevie
Ray tune and the crowd goes nuts which always kinda pulls at you, but
I know plenty of guys that strived to play like Stevie, or Wes or
whomever, and when you talk to them, a lot of them are not very happy
with it, their always trying to live it down, or can't play any other
way either because they just can't or because the crowd won't let
them, but It really made me feel good one time after a gig when
someone came up to me and told me that they really like our band, and
that they had really been listening and they thought that my playing
was what gave our band such an original sound. They didn't think any
other player could take my place and have the band still sound as
original and enjoyable as it was. Well to me, I've been living off
THAT comment for the last few weeks! :)
Just some food for thought, Sorry again about the length
Steve
fpl
i think you're being a bit harsh. just 'cos some people feel a little
pleased when told they sound like someone well known. Really it's just
another indicator of progress.
For most of us it's just a hobby. I remember an interview with Steve
Morse when he commented that your hobby might even be simply playing the
12 songs from a particular album, what gives anyone the right to
criticize you for it, as long as they're not paying you to play a
function...:)
I think Lawson just hit a bad patch a we're all just trying to suggest
some ways for him to stimulate the creative juices again. Sometimes it
just takes a little bit a talking to help reassess and get going again.
fpl.
Tom Lippincott
>
>I'm just kinda lurking and have been following this thread (cause I
>can definitely relate to the frustration), so I thought I'd throw in
> They didn't think any
>other player could take my place and have the band still sound as
>original and enjoyable as it was. Well to me, I've been living off
>THAT comment for the last few weeks! :)
>
>Just some food for thought, Sorry again about the length
>
>Steve
Steve;
that was truly an amazing and insightful story. do you mind if I save it to
have some of my students read it?
Thanks,
Tom
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Tom Lippincott
>
>i think you're being a bit harsh. just 'cos some people feel a little
>pleased when told they sound like someone well known. Really it's just
>another indicator of progress.
>
>For most of us it's just a hobby. I remember an interview with Steve
>Morse when he commented that your hobby might even be simply playing the
>12 songs from a particular album, what gives anyone the right to
>criticize you for it, as long as they're not paying you to play a
>function...:)
>
>I think Lawson just hit a bad patch a we're all just trying to suggest
>some ways for him to stimulate the creative juices again. Sometimes it
>just takes a little bit a talking to help reassess and get going again.
>
>fpl.
While I don't think there is inherently anything "dishonorable" in having a
goal of playing like your hero, or in feeling happy when an audience member
compares you to some guitar player you admire, I think that basing your entire
playing on trying to copy one or two (or even several) players is a recipe for
frustration, whether you're approaching music as a hobby or a career. There is
and always will be only one Wes, Joe Pass, Johnny Smith, ect. and if your point
of reference to your own playing is how you "measure up" compared to those guys
(or really compared to any other guy or gal) you are, I think, doomed to
failure before you even start.
I really love to run. Running's been a "hobby" of mine for most of my life,
but I've never really been "serious" enough about it to spend more than a half
hour or so a day doing it. I've entered races and always been either a "mid
pack" finisher, or sometimes even a "slowpoke". Luckily, I just plain enjoy
running, putting one foot in front of the other and experiencing the way it
feels to move through space. I'm not trying to run like Bruce Jenner, and I'm
also not "searching for my own running voice;" I just plain love to run, so I
do it. There have been many times in my life where music was not nearly so
simple as this but the best times I've had as a musician have been when I've
been able to approach music from this same mindset.
I really thought Steve Olson's post on this same subject was great,
particularly since my family has always done the "holiday puzzle" thing also.
icarusi
news:39B891...@javanet.com...
> > I was once showing a graduate teacher of Geography some guitar
stuff
> > and I though I'd shown him what I was doing, but he was able to
pick
> > out lots of stuff I was doing but didn't realise, and which made
the
> > difference between how I sounded and how he sounded.
> Um, is there a typo or grammar irregularity in there? I don't catch
your
> meaning...
No. It was the difference between a 'teacher' attempting to teach, and
a 'pupil' finding information from what he observed the 'teacher'
doing.
Icarusi
--
Willie K. Yee, MD
but I don't _think_ that is my problems know. While I would like to
sound like Charlie or Wes or Jim, I know I never will, and I quite
accept that. Right know, I don't even care if I ever sound like
something recognizably Willie Yee. However, I do want it to sound LIKE
MUSIC, and not this sloppy shit that comes out most of the time.
As I said before, I am aware that in practicing, at least, my problem is
focus. When I am doing Johnny Smith's alternate picking exercise, and I
hit a clam, most of the time I am aware that my mind has wondered, and I
am thinking about something else. In spite of my years of playng, it
just doesn't come out right automatically.
Secondly, I think I am rhythmically impaired. My time is not steady, the
feel of my lines are not smooth, and techniques such as being able to
control playing slightly ahead or behind the beat are beyond me.
Maybe these are fixable, maybe they are limitations I have to learn to
live with. If the latter, I will be perpetually frustrated, because to
me, they are close to the essence of what musicality and jazz are.
Steve Olson wrote:
>
> I really think Jeff is right in his belief in striving to find your
> own voice on the instrument. For years I looked at it like "Man, I
> practice and practice and still suck!" When am I ever going to get
> close to sounding like (whomever I was listening to at the time). I
> finally came to the realization that basically I'm NEVER going to
> sound like Jimmy B, Wes, Pat M, or anybody else, but the best thing
> for me is to really concentrate on MY strengths and try to excentuate
> the positive (as a certain dancing bear use to tell us). . .
David Rastall
news:39b8e2e5...@tx.news.verio.net...
> ...I really think Jeff is right in his belief in striving to find your
> own voice on the instrument.
I would have to agree with that also. Finding your own voice is where it's
at. For me, that's what musicmaking is all about
> ...I basically
> "lost" myself in the puzzle. When I first started, god there were all
> these pieces, how the hell can anybody find any two pieces out of this
> whole PILE of pieces that fit together. But I kept searching and
> pretty soon I found a couple that fit, then I found a couple more.
> Then pretty soon I had the whole border done.
Yeah!! It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle!
> Then after awhile I
> found that I was looking at the colors differently. What a first
> looked like a bunch of red, now started taking on different shades and
> hues,
That's what's happening to me nowadays as I listen more and more closely to
the harmonies I had only skimmed over in my mind up till now. I'm starting
to hear the subtle shades.
> ...frustration with your instrument, it's really just that inner musician
> in you saying "focus on the journey!" get your enjoyment in the moment
> of losing yourself to the practise, and in the end you'll realise for
> yourself that your a better player.
Good advice, man!
David R
Mr.Will
writes:
>Just some food for thought, Sorry again about the length
Heya man,
I agree with everything you said,
isn't the trick to find inspiration in the heroes and try to make that quality
yours, i.e. if a certain player is great with a certain technique you try to
interpret it your way (like I am trying to do at present with that conga
stuff), or a certain emotion they can evoke, you try to do the same?
Its wrong IMHO to try and DO or SOUND like that hero of yours, but there's
nothing wrong with internalising some of that "essence" and adding it to what
you do.
Tuck Andress said he is an incredibly shy guy and his playing was once shy, so
he looked around the people he was playing with and basically practiced playing
more confidently, saying he worked so hard on fooling himself he was confident
that soon he believed it.
If Andress had decided his strengths were hiding in the mix and "backing" other
instruments he wouldn't have pushed himself on.
Mr.Will
Planet Sound Community Arts
http://www.planetsound-arts.co.uk
John S. Clifford
. . .
> Secondly, I think I am rhythmically impaired. My time is not steady, the
> feel of my lines are not smooth, and techniques such as being able to
> control playing slightly ahead or behind the beat are beyond me.
Do you have the same problem when you're dancing (without the guitar)? If
you do, then you may be right - rhythm isn't your thing. If not, then it's
probably a matter of slowing down, playing fewer notes and trying to work
that same physical feeling into your guitar playing that you have when
you're dancing. Of course, I am not in any way qualified to give advice on
this subject, but that never stopped me before.
Sort of related to this subject, I noticed when I took up the tenor
saxophone that even after I had learned to play all the scales and a number
of heads at a reasonably fast tempo, my rythmic feel really sucked (still
sucks) compared to my guitar playing. I'm still not sure exactly why, but I
think it has something to with rewiring the brain to associate the
experience of "rythm" with a different set of physical movements. You
probably know way more about that than I do, doc.
Oh well. I am just one of those "hobbyists" who plays music for the sheer
love of doing it, but this week I'm happy to report that I am NOT feeling
frustrated.
John C.
Thomas F Brown
>limitations to my playing, but they would all be tolerable if I could
>just play CLEANLY and in the groove.
Clean != good music.
There are plenty of sloppy players who sound great. They do
play in the groove, though. You can't get around that. When
my timing feels off, I like to play along with swinging
records. Just play any note, as long as it grooves. Soak
in the time feel of the band on the album.
Thomas F Brown
>> is the prefered compliment over "your playing sounds fresh".
>
>I about drenched my keyboard with a mouth full of coffee reading this
>because a huge laugh just exploded out of my mouth.
>
>Paul, this post should be bronzed. You have said in one message what so many
>of us hobby/hack players really feel.
My old friend Rick Udler wrote in his liner notes to Paulo
Nogeuira's new album that he stopped taking lessons from
Paulo because he didn't want to become a second-rate imitator.
My first thought was that I would *love* to sound like a second-
rate imitator of that guy, because right now I'm at best a
fourth-rate imitator.
Thomas F Brown
>feel of my lines are not smooth, and techniques such as being able to
>control playing slightly ahead or behind the beat are beyond me.
This sounds to me like something that Kenny Werner's notions about
practicing might profitably address. His philosophy is that you learn
to do one small thing absolutely perfectly, rather than diffusing
your attention over a wider variety of goals.
You might try to take one really cool bebop run, and focus on
playing that perfectly, concentrating on rhythmic accuracy
and time feel.
I think that the word "feel" is key here. Once you get into
you body and mind what it feels like to be grooving, it's
like heroin. You'll do anything to get that feeling back.
peatea
<wyeeN...@bestweb.net> wrote:
> I appreciate the struggle some folks have with finding their own voice,
> but I don't _think_ that is my problems know. While I would like to
> sound like Charlie or Wes or Jim, I know I never will, and I quite
> accept that. Right know, I don't even care if I ever sound like
> something recognizably Willie Yee. However, I do want it to sound LIKE
> MUSIC, and not this sloppy shit that comes out most of the time.
>
> As I said before, I am aware that in practicing, at least, my problem is
> focus. When I am doing Johnny Smith's alternate picking exercise, and I
> hit a clam, most of the time I am aware that my mind has wondered, and I
> am thinking about something else. In spite of my years of playng, it
> just doesn't come out right automatically.
>
> Secondly, I think I am rhythmically impaired. My time is not steady, the
> feel of my lines are not smooth, and techniques such as being able to
> control playing slightly ahead or behind the beat are beyond me.
>
> Maybe these are fixable, maybe they are limitations I have to learn to
> live with. If the latter, I will be perpetually frustrated, because to
> me, they are close to the essence of what musicality and jazz are.
>
Mr Yee, I have been reading your posts for years. Even though I have never
met you or heard you play, you are among the few here that get my highest
respect.
I have been playing going on 40 years and I still have much to learn. Your
posts have opened up many doors for me. I think that if you listen to your
self you will clear up most of your frustrations. You certainly have
cleared mine up.
Pt
HvincentM
When I raised the issue of "finding my own voice", my guitar teacher repeatedly
told me, "you already have a voice; you already have a style." In the
beginning, I responded, "Yeah, right!" But if you think about it, he's right.
I think that soloing is such a personal, sum-total-of what- you- have- learned
- and -heard thing that, by definition, we all sound quite differently. In the
end, no matter how much I practice someone else's lines and approaches, when I
solo, I play what sounds good to me in my head. I think we all do this to some
degree. Since none of us will ever really be able to comprehend fully what
someone else experiences, we all have our own style.
But, sometimes, we don't like what we hear in our heads and from our fingers.
This may be due to being our own worst critics. I know I can be harsh in
looking at my own development.
So, I say to all, lighten up, and keep working.
It's a process, and I'm convinced that we're all getting better day by day, by
practice and repetition.
And, in no small meaure, through threads like these, where we support each
other through these dark doubting moments.
BTW, thank you all for keeping me going.
Still learning,
Vince
dev
--
remove the 00 to reply
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:B5DD049B.113B8%lawso...@mindspring.com...
> in article 8p5k2d$ofo$1...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu, Paul Craig Sanwald
at
> pcsa...@unity.ncsu.edu wrote on 9/6/00 9:24 AM:
>
> > Lawson Stone (lawso...@mindspring.com) wrote:
> > :
> > : I wonder if those who popped the $20 are really the ones who
won't see what
> > : they don't want to see, namely, they got took!
> > :
> >
> > I for one don't see anybody 'getting took' except for tom. This
book has
> > obviously helped a lot of people out. Obviously it's not for
everyone,
> > and of course some people aren't going to like it.
> >
> > The creative process is a weird thing to write about, newage
psychobabble or
> > none. I recently read (part) of a book about the creative process
(called
> > "The Path Of Least Resistance" which didn't contain (IMHO)
anything even
> > resembling new age psychobabble, but I still thought the book's
basic premises
> > were flawed. So much so, that I stopped reading it.
> >
> > --paul
>
> To return to the original topic, I too am incredibly frustrated and
> demoralized about my own playing, to the point that I'm even
avoiding
> practising or "noodling" just because I hate to hear myself play.
>
> I think in my case, the absence of a teacher is really telling.
When I
> compare myself to recordings, of course, I fall far short. A teacher
could
> probably tell me where on a scale of suckdom I actually fall. But at
this
> point I find it painful just to play an hear my lame excuses for
music.
>
> I find I'm no longer telling people I play jazz, I just tell them I
play
> "those old showtunes" and try to stay away from making them think I
can
> actually play jazz.
>
> It might be time to start shopping for a potential buyer for my
Heritage.
>
icarusi
news:B5DD049B.113B8%lawso...@mindspring.com...
> I think in my case, the absence of a teacher is really telling.
When I
> compare myself to recordings, of course, I fall far short. A teacher
could
> probably tell me where on a scale of suckdom I actually fall. But at
this
> point I find it painful just to play an hear my lame excuses for
music.
That reminds me of someone, in a rut, who went to a teacher to improve
his playing. After hearing a sample of the pupil's standard of playing
he offered the advice to shorten the neck of his guitar by 3-4". The
pupil asked if this would finally improve his playing? The teacher
said, "Probably not, but the guitar will fit easier in the bin."
I think the problem is your guitar. All guitarists know, if you get
another guitar, things will improve, but you need to keep your
original guitar to prove the point. Usually it doesn't work until you
have about 5 guitars and by then you are collecting interesting
guitars, and your playing only needs to be good enough to demonstrate
the different aspects of your guitar collection, by which time the
emphasis on your playing is lessened, and therefore will have improved
by default.
Icarusi
Thomas F Brown
HvincentM <hvin...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>When I raised the issue of "finding my own voice", my guitar teacher repeatedly
>told me, "you already have a voice; you already have a style." In the
>beginning, I responded, "Yeah, right!" But if you think about it, he's right.
>
>
>I think that soloing is such a personal, sum-total-of what- you- have- learned
Minus what you haven't learned. Our weaknesses are just as much a component
of our personal sound as our strengths are.
HvincentM
Point well taken. What we can't do, defines us as much as what we can do. This
only serves to highlight the uniqueness of each person's approach.
Paul kirk
Jeff Gower wrote:
> In article <B5DEC8FC.114C7%lawso...@mindspring.com>, Lawson Stone
> <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > in article 39B91324...@indiana.edu, Paul kirk at pk...@indiana.edu
> > wrote on 9/8/00 12:26 PM:
> >
> > > The bottom line is that for many of us "you sound like so-and-so"
> > > is the prefered compliment over "your playing sounds fresh".
> >
> > Paul, this post should be bronzed. You have said in one message what so many
> > of us hobby/hack players really feel.
>
> Weren't you the one whining about how frustrated you are with your
> playing, and how you wanted to sell your guitar and give it all up? And
> you think Paul's post summed it all up for ya, eh? Well, pardon my
> frankness, but that explains alot.
You're being unfair; this comment and your last one exhibits my point about the
"artists v. hobbyist".
let me take a different approach to explain the same point. many of us want our
playing to be firmly rooted in the tradition. Saying I want to sound just like
wes montgomery or whoever is obviously an exageration, not to mention an
impossible goal. But: and this is my point, I want my playing to exhibit
my having absorbed from the great jazz tradition.
With very few exceptions that I consider special case geniuses, All the great
jazz musicians I enjoy listening put in tremendous amounts of time learning to
play jazz int he tradition. metheny says he spent 21 hours a day as a teenager
trying to master the language of bebop. Listen to very early scofield recordings,
you'll hear him playing standard bebop stuff (there's an old NHOP record with sco
that you would not recognize as him). Even Frizell, who doesnt sound like anybody
but himself, has that part of the tradition in the bag, listen to his recent
record with fred hersch, e.g.. Hall, goodrick, and diorio, etc etc.. that's just
guitar players. think about the greats on the other instruments Coltrane, Miles,
or more recently Jarrett, brecker, etc.....
How many great artists didn't take this route? not many, O. Coleman, Cecil
taylor... These exceptions are people with great vision and strong personalities,
and even then their work is not uniformly good.
By contrast, there are hoardes of players who get seduced by the avant garde, or
the idea of "making their own unique statement", etc, and it usually ends up
sounding self-indulgent and not particularly interesting, if they dont have the
facility and knowledge that comes from mastering the tradition and studying and
understanding the solutions and inovations of those that came before. (You hear
a lot of that around music schools, for example.) Experimentation is important
and useful, but it has to come with rigorous schooling in the tradition to hold
my attention.
In addition, the limited expressive pallette of the guitar compared to horn
players
means that for guitar players it is especially important to be able to play
changes, etc.
So, if someone tells me I sound just like Wes montgomery, then I know that I have
the tradition under control. Moreover, when I play with the better players
around here, they *expect* me at the least to be able to lay down bebop lines
(and if I can't, then I'll never get called to gig, its rarely fun to play with a
somone whose playing is self-centered) , and what they look for as far as
"freshness" is concenred is not whether I have constructed from scratch some
personal musical vision that I'm artifically imposing on "you stepped out of a
dream", but rather whether I have studied and incorporated and internalized
modern improv methods that go beyond bebop (large intervals, rhythmic and melodic
patterns, subtle harmonic ideas, voicings etc.) into my playing in a musical and
sensitive way. I work on these things and my own voice, if I have one, comes
from making the choice of what things (that others have developped) to study and
how well they incorporate into my playing. They dont come about because I am
trying to have a personal voice. If I ever get one, it will just happen.
I think that those of us who are hobbyists want to sound like Wes Montgomery
because that is what will enable us to play gigs, but more importantly because we
believe a certain threshold of mastery is needed before one can move on, and this
threshold is quite simply the ability to play effectively in the bebop
tradition.
Paul Kirk
Paul kirk
Paul kirk wrote:
> metheny says he spent 21 hours a day as a teenager
> trying to master the language of bebop.
make that 12 hours.
PK
Lawson Stone
jgo...@gator.net wrote on 9/8/00 9:04 PM:
>
> Weren't you the one whining about how frustrated you are with your
> playing, and how you wanted to sell your guitar and give it all up? And
> you think Paul's post summed it all up for ya, eh? Well, pardon my
> frankness, but that explains alot.
>
Yep, that was me. When you've been in this group a while, you'll realize we
all have our times when we, as you say, "whine." For some of us, this is our
only place to talk about our experiences in music, and we tend to look after
each other pretty closely, and we have tended to support each other loyally.
I forgive you the impertinence of the relative newcomer.
>> Once when I was playing in a
>> bookstore, a guy came over and said "When I came in, I thought they were
>> playing Wes Montgomery over the store's sound system." I lived off of that
>> compliment for about 3 years!
>
> But did you sound like Wes or not? Or would any big-name comparison have
> sufficed? At a gig last week, a guy told me I sounded just like Kenny
> Burrell. I sound nothing like Burrell. Not to mention I was playing
> fingerstyle classical guitar at the time. But I smiled and thanked him
> anyway. Later the same night, a table of people praised me for "how rare
> it is to hear someone play guitar that way - you have a very unique sound"
> and hired me on the spot for a private gig, and still later two guys asked
> for lessons "to show me how to play guitar that way". Perhaps you and
> Paul would have preferred the Burrell comment - not I, believe me.
>
My "take" was that they guy knew neither Wes nor me nor jazz. I just enjoyed
having somebody link me to any player who was good. And if you didn't hear
just a hint of self-ironic hyperbole in my comment, I'm not sure about your
improvisation either.
>> You've really put my own musical aspirations into very clear and forcible
>> expression.
>
> Oh well, to each his own. It's your game to play as you choose. If your
> musical aspiration is to sound like X, Y, or Z, all the best to ya.
>
Thank you for giving me permission to follow my own aspirations. I will
remain forever in your debt.
Lawson Stone
tomli...@aol.comnospam wrote on 9/9/00 3:23 AM:
Tom and others,
I guess I should clarify my points a bit.
I have always thought of jazz as learning a language. There is a vocabulary,
a syntax, a set of idioms that make speakers able to communicate with one
another. And when you're learning to speak a language, you sometimes
encounter native speakers whose diction, grammar, and style are models of
excellent usage. One of the best ways to learn a language is to imitate the
speech of such people. The goal, of course, isn't to imitate them, but to
exploit their exemplary competence in order to learn the fundamentals of
forceful expression in that language. With that done, one starts mastering
the more difficult task of speaking with a more personal style, allows one's
personal eccentricities to come through, etc.
My frustration is that after many years, I still feel like I hardly have the
ability to "say" even simple sentences in basic jazz vocabulary. As long as
I've been at this, I wish that I could say I had the vocabulary and grammar
of the music down well enough to express my own thoughts, but I'm just still
not finding that fluency to be there. I appreciate players like Joe Pass,
Wes, Kenny Burrell, etc. because they are exemplary models of the jazz
vocabulary and style. I am not interested in "playing like them" but rather
appreciate them as masters of the central inventory of jazz expressions, and
masters of how those classic idioms and phrases fit together.
I feel like I'm still learning my ABC's after 10 years of jazz and 30 years
of guitar in general.
For some of you, the jazz vocabulary, the fundamentals of good phrasing, the
near-universal stuff that makes jazz recognizable to many as such, has been
mastered and you're working to say the things you want to say musically. I
find after all this time that I still lack fluency in the fundamentals.
Lawson Stone
wrote on 9/10/00 3:41 PM:
> I think the problem is your guitar. All guitarists know, if you get
> another guitar, things will improve, but you need to keep your
> original guitar to prove the point. Usually it doesn't work until you
> have about 5 guitars and by then you are collecting interesting
> guitars, and your playing only needs to be good enough to demonstrate
> the different aspects of your guitar collection, by which time the
> emphasis on your playing is lessened, and therefore will have improved
> by default.
>
Brilliant!
I've been lusting over a Gibson ES 335. Yeah, that's the ticket.
And then there's this cool amp, I mean, I never saw anybody play a 335
through a Polytone...
New guitar. I knew one of you would have the answer!
OASYSCO
>in article jgower-0809...@ppp050.gator.net, Jeff Gower at
>jgo...@gator.net wrote on 9/8/00 9:04 PM:
>
>>
>> Weren't you the one whining about how frustrated you are with your
>> playing, and how you wanted to sell your guitar and give it all up? And
>> you think Paul's post summed it all up for ya, eh? Well, pardon my
>> frankness, but that explains alot.
>Yep, that was me. When you've been in this group a while, you'll realize we
>all have our times when we, as you say, "whine." For some of us, this is our
>only place to talk about our experiences in music, and we tend to look after
>each other pretty closely, and we have tended to support each other loyally.
Amen. And again I say, Amen! N'er a truer statement was said. Thanks for saying
in such a short manner what would have taken me 3 pages.
>I forgive you the impertinence of the relative newcomer.
>>> Once when I was playing in a
>>> bookstore, a guy came over and said "When I came in, I thought they were
>>> playing Wes Montgomery over the store's sound system." I lived off of that
>>> compliment for about 3 years!
Recently, I was in a music store testing out amps. One of the salepersons whom
I know by sight from going there now and again came up and said, "Man, that
Taylor (I was testing with my own guitar) sure is a nice sounding box. So, who
are you playing with nowadays?"
It was a good feeling to think that someone took for granted that I was a
fellow musician, even though "musicianship" is something that I am aspiring to.
>>
>> But did you sound like Wes or not? Or would any big-name comparison have
>> sufficed? At a gig last week, a guy told me I sounded just like Kenny
>> Burrell. I sound nothing like Burrell. Not to mention I was playing
>> fingerstyle classical guitar at the time. But I smiled and thanked him
>> anyway. Later the same night, a table of people praised me for "how rare
>> it is to hear someone play guitar that way - you have a very unique sound"
>> and hired me on the spot for a private gig, and still later two guys asked
>> for lessons "to show me how to play guitar that way". Perhaps you and
>> Paul would have preferred the Burrell comment - not I, believe me.
To Jeff: and so what's wrong with Kenny B? I have an album of him and Grover
Washington wherein Kenny B does a fine job with a classical guitar, if I
remember correctly.
>My "take" was that they guy knew neither Wes nor me nor jazz. I just enjoyed
>having somebody link me to any player who was good. And if you didn't hear
>just a hint of self-ironic hyperbole in my comment, I'm not sure about your
>improvisation either.
Like you, I would take it as a supreme compliment.
>>> You've really put my own musical aspirations into very clear and forcible
>>> expression.
>>
>> Oh well, to each his own. It's your game to play as you choose. If your
>> musical aspiration is to sound like X, Y, or Z, all the best to ya.
>>
Heck, I'd be happy to sound like any one of youse guys here in this NG. Then,
accomplishing that, I'd try to move beyond it and maybe, just maybe become the
next "Kenny G", being known, instead, as "Greggy D". Pretty catchy, huh?
Greggy D
Steve Olson
>
>Steve;
>
>that was truly an amazing and insightful story. do you mind if I save it to
>have some of my students read it?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Tom
>Tom Lippincott
>Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
>audio samples, articles, CD's at:
>http://www.tomlippincott.com
Tom,
By all means, feel free. Was just kinda "stream of concienceness"
writing so hopefully it didn't ramble too much.
I really like this newsgroup and want to thank you and everyone that's
offered helpful tips and suggestions on this art called Jazz. I don't
have any great insights on the technical aspect of playing (or at
least at the level you guys operate on), so maybe was just trying to
add a little to the group by reinforcing that idea of enjoying the
journey as a way of getting out of a rut and trying to remove some of
the frustration that we all experience as we keep chipping away.
Steve
Mark Kleinhaut
Well said Lawson!
----------------------------------------------------------
Mark Kleinhaut
Follow URL's for info and soundclips about:
my debut album "Amphora"
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
my newest album "Secrets of Three"
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
---------------------------------------------------------
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tom Walls
chords, keep the time, pull off a couple of runs and fills, I'd say you're
doing terrifically, Lawson. If you had some guys to play with, you'd be
mostly comping, and taking an occasional solo. It would be MUCH less
demanding than trying to do a solo set. You'd be having fun and getting the
reinforcement of seeing other people having a good time doing the same damn
thing. As it is I understand that this is not an option for you, so take it
easy on yourself. I get the feeling you're setting the bar too high for
yourself.
I also think some of you guys missed a point that Jeff made. Playing like
yourself, having you own vision, doesn't necessitate pushing the parameters of
jazz. It merely means that you have listened to yourself, taken stock of your
abilities and learned to employ those resources towards the goal of making
music. Ca va?
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
chris berbaum
you would indulge me for a second:
Lawson, you speak of jazz as being a "second" language to you (as in, not a "native"
speaker), and I'm just wondering what you would consider to be your "first"
language. I myself went from Chet Atkins, to George Harrison, to Eric Clapton, to
Steely Dan, and on and on. I heard Wes, and Tal, and Herb, along the way, but never
thought I'd ever get to the place where I'd be so brash as to even attempt it.
(Didn't think I'd ever get this OLD :)
Sort of like I took 5 years of French and 2 of German in High School, but never
sounded like anything more than a bulldog from Memphis, "Parlor vou-ee, Frankie?" :)
So, what kind of stuff did you really like when you first started playing? What was
the stuff that really got to you? I'm thinking, if you listened to that same thing
now, with the ears that you have now, you'd find lots more there than what you may
have decided earlier. When I get down, I'll go back to early Beatles, or Fresh
Cream, and start the journey over. BTW, have you seen the sacrilege of a MacIntosh
TV commercial using "White Room" in the background? :):):)
Also, just as a thought, there's lots of guys out there that would be plenty happy
to sound like YOU! Now, there's always someone out there, around the corner, that's
smarter, or stronger, etc., but that shouldn't stop you. If fact, for some people,
you're that guy! :)
best of luck,
chris
Joey Goldstein
contains a large element of psychobabble but I can not agree that the
book is worthless. Far from it. I haven't read all of this thread but it
appears to me that Lawson here is one who felt ripped off by this book
yet the types of self loathing and Lawson-bashing he is engaging in now
are just the types of things that this book addresses and addresses well.
The bad things in this book are the Hindu-ish, Maharishi-ish "infinite
field of creative intelligence" crap.
The good stuff is the way he speaks about the attitude of detachment
that a musician HAS TO HAVE in order to play well, let alone to play
great.
Lawson, you are too caught up in what you think you should be doing and
not enjoying enough of what you ARE doing. If you don't love playing
jazz guitar then DON'T DO IT. There are more important things in life
than playing jazz guitar. Enjoy your life better. However if playing
jazz guitar is CENTRAL to your enjoyment of your life then you had
better start looking for a way out of this self loathing cycle you're
in. Self loathing, worrying, getting tense and frustrated is WASTED
energy. Nothing good can come from those activities. Certain things in
life you have no control over. Concentrate better on what you can exact
some control over.
Detachment:
One analogue I like to use is with sight reading. In order to be a good
sight reader the PRIME DIRECTIVE is to not get hung up on your mistakes.
As soon as you try to fix a mistake you're lost. It can't be done. You
have to move on. The band will not stop for you to fix your mistake and
you will be making an even bigger mistake, the biggest mistake, when you
get lost. You have to detach yourself from the emotion involved in
making that mistake and move on.
The above is true for ALL aspects of music making. As Werner says, in
order to master something you have to work your butt off on the task at
hand and then learn to try LESS. Paradoxically that is the ONLY way it
can happen. You have to be emotionally detached from the goal at every
step of the way and enjoy the process.
When he talks about "effortless mastery" he is not saying how easy it is
to master something when you use his meditations, he is saying that you
have to practice it so much that it becomes effortless. At all points
along the way you have to detach yourself from getting hung up on the
goal. That's just the way it is. Practice everything slowly enough that
you can play it flawlessly or close to flawlessy and then gradually
speed it up. Allow yourself the time to slowly and methodically focus on
each and every physical and mental activity involved in executing a
passage and eventually speeding it up will be no problem. Don't get
pissed at yourself because Johnny Guitar Hero who is only 12 years old
can play this stuff already. That won't help YOU learn to play it. Of
course there is a different type of physical and mental activity
involved in playing faster and that has to be focussed on as well.
Now you have said that you don't have several hours a day that you can
practice jazz guitar. That's OK. You're a hobbyist. There's no shame in
that. But the people you listen to every day when you put on a record
have all spent a significant part of their lives working between 7 and
12 or more hours a day doing nothing else except playing the guitar. The
better ones, like Metheny are STILL working that hard. You don't stand a
chance of playing at that level unless you too make that kind of
commitment. That's just the way it is.
So, because you are a hobbyist you have to use your practice time for
things that will be enjoyable for you. I imagine that the act of playing
a Wes solo, or a Pat Martino solo or an Ed Bickert chold melody
arrangement would be enjoyable for you. If I were your teacher I would
be looking for all sorts of written out lifts of music that you
personally enjoyed and would try to help you develop the technique and
the sensibility to learn how to play these 'pre-composed" things. I
would also have you lifting these types of things yourself and learning
to play them. Then you might enjoy what you were doing because it would
sound like music when you played. Not your own music but music
nontheless, not noodling.
However, if you want to learn to improvise this type of stuff yourself,
even at a novice's level, you DON'T STAND A CHANCE unless you're totally
committed to the task and with a fanatically obsessive attitude. If you
REALLY want it you will figure out a way to get it and believe it or
not, paradoxically, learning to detach yourself from that desire is the
ONLY way to achieve it.
Lawson Stone wrote:
>
> in article 8p5k2d$ofo$1...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu, Paul Craig Sanwald at
> pcsa...@unity.ncsu.edu wrote on 9/6/00 9:24 AM:
>
> > Lawson Stone (lawso...@mindspring.com) wrote:
> > :
> > : I wonder if those who popped the $20 are really the ones who won't see what
> > : they don't want to see, namely, they got took!
> > :
> >
> > I for one don't see anybody 'getting took' except for tom. This book has
> > obviously helped a lot of people out. Obviously it's not for everyone,
> > and of course some people aren't going to like it.
> >
> > The creative process is a weird thing to write about, newage psychobabble or
> > none. I recently read (part) of a book about the creative process (called
> > "The Path Of Least Resistance" which didn't contain (IMHO) anything even
> > resembling new age psychobabble, but I still thought the book's basic premises
> > were flawed. So much so, that I stopped reading it.
> >
> > --paul
>
> To return to the original topic, I too am incredibly frustrated and
> demoralized about my own playing, to the point that I'm even avoiding
> practising or "noodling" just because I hate to hear myself play.
>
> I think in my case, the absence of a teacher is really telling. When I
> compare myself to recordings, of course, I fall far short. A teacher could
> probably tell me where on a scale of suckdom I actually fall. But at this
> point I find it painful just to play an hear my lame excuses for music.
>
> I find I'm no longer telling people I play jazz, I just tell them I play
> "those old showtunes" and try to stay away from making them think I can
> actually play jazz.
>
> It might be time to start shopping for a potential buyer for my Heritage.
>
> *****************************************************
> "Go sleep it off Ike; you talk too much for a fighting man"--Wyatt Earp
> Lawson Stone-Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
> Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting, Leathercraft, Horses, Old West
>
> http://lawsonstone.home.mindspring.com/index.html
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
Joey Goldstein
good teacher in your area Lawson.
Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
>
> In article <B5DD049B.113B8%lawso...@mindspring.com>,
> Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> (snip)
> > I think in my case, the absence of a teacher is really telling. When
> I
> > compare myself to recordings, of course, I fall far short. A teacher
> could
> > probably tell me where on a scale of suckdom I actually fall.
>
> Hi Lawson, we've talked about this before and it seems that you are
> still unable to find a teacher down there where "the cars are on blocks
> and the houses on wheels". (didn't think I'd rememeber that one, did
> ya?). Anyway, before even thinking of giving up, why not try a
> correspondence program for private instruction. Joey Goldstein offers
> one as does Rick Stone, and I'm pretty sure that there are a few others
> advertised in Just Jazz Guitar Magazine. If you want my advise, I'd
> say send Joey or Rick an email today and give that a try.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Mark Kleinhaut
> Follow URL's for info and soundclips about:
> my debut album "Amphora"
> www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
> my newest album "Secrets of Three"
> www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Mark Kleinhaut
Hey Chris, don't sell the group or yourself short. Sometimes regrouping
and getting back to basics is just the ticket. Good advise.
Mark Kleinhaut
joegoldATidirectDOTcom wrote:
> Thanks Mark but the best teacher is ALWAYS there in the flesh. Find a
> good teacher in your area Lawson.
Joey, I assume that you didn't hear from him? I've discussed this with
Lawson in the past outside of this public forum, and as I understand
it, he lives in a rural area down south that is many miles from anyone
qualified (or even unqualified) to teach jazz guitar. So, it still
seems to me that correspondence courses are better than nothing.
Lawson Stone
wrote on 9/11/00 11:44 AM:
>
> SNIP
>
> I think that those of us who are hobbyists want to sound like Wes Montgomery
> because that is what will enable us to play gigs, but more importantly because
> we
> believe a certain threshold of mastery is needed before one can move on, and
> this
> threshold is quite simply the ability to play effectively in the bebop
> tradition.
>
Paul, you've given better articulation to what I was saying that I did,
primarily because you seem to have controlled your temper better than I did!
Joey Goldstein
Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
>
> In article <39BD3DDA...@nowhere.net>,
> joegoldATidirectDOTcom wrote:
> > Thanks Mark but the best teacher is ALWAYS there in the flesh. Find a
> > good teacher in your area Lawson.
>
> Joey, I assume that you didn't hear from him? I've discussed this with
> Lawson in the past outside of this public forum, and as I understand
> it, he lives in a rural area down south that is many miles from anyone
> qualified (or even unqualified) to teach jazz guitar. So, it still
> seems to me that correspondence courses are better than nothing.
Well if that's the case I'd be happy to talk to him about it. Lawson, if
you're reading this, send me an email. My own style is perhaps not as
straight ahead as the styles of music you admire most but I'm sure we
could find some common ground, if you're into it.
Joey Goldstein
or two from me are Tom Spaulding (2 lessons) and Rick Ross (1 lesson).
Chis Parsons studied privately with me for a while too.
Talk to those guys if you want some insight into how I do things.
Lawson Stone
QA1...@email.mot.com wrote on 9/11/00 3:29 PM:
> I realize there aren't many here who care to hear much of anything from me,
> but if
> you would indulge me for a second:
>
> Lawson, you speak of jazz as being a "second" language to you (as in, not a
> "native"
> speaker), and I'm just wondering what you would consider to be your "first"
> language. I myself went from Chet Atkins, to George Harrison, to Eric Clapton,
> to
> Steely Dan, and on and on. I heard Wes, and Tal, and Herb, along the way, but
> never
> thought I'd ever get to the place where I'd be so brash as to even attempt it.
> (Didn't think I'd ever get this OLD :)
>
My "native language" musically is hard to tell. Initially, what I started on
was basic classical (I was 10) but my dad tells me when I was really little,
Al Caiola played on some TV show and he said I "went nuts." I do remember
that year getting for Christmas a plastic archtop guitar with a little
plastic amp that hung on a strap over the shoulder--it was called the "Tiger
Guitar" and it was made by that great custom luthier, MATTELL! But really,
my early music interests were mainly folk--John Denver, James Taylor, Peter
Paul and Mary, the coffeehouse scene; add to that a little Crosby Stills and
Nash. Somehow all that time I wasn't really satisfied that I"d found the
music I really wanted to play. I was actually about 35 when I first heard
Earl Klugh's "Solo Guitar" and then Joe Pass, and at that moment it was like
love at first sight. But I didn't really grow up hearing jazz; maybe a
little Glen Miller and Tommy Dorsey. Chet Atkins and Glen Campbell were also
players I admired then.
> Sort of like I took 5 years of French and 2 of German in High School, but
> never
> sounded like anything more than a bulldog from Memphis, "Parlor vou-ee,
> Frankie?" :)
>
> So, what kind of stuff did you really like when you first started playing?
> What was
> the stuff that really got to you? I'm thinking, if you listened to that same
> thing
> now, with the ears that you have now, you'd find lots more there than what you
> may
> have decided earlier. When I get down, I'll go back to early Beatles, or Fresh
> Cream, and start the journey over. BTW, have you seen the sacrilege of a
> MacIntosh
> TV commercial using "White Room" in the background? :):):)
>
I have little interest in returning to the folk stage; the great Folk Music
Scare of the Seventies (when it almost caught on) swept me up and deposited
me and my capo alone on the beach. I do still admire Chet Atkins, and I also
think Glen Campbell is a guitarist many people tend to overlook.
> Also, just as a thought, there's lots of guys out there that would be plenty
> happy
> to sound like YOU! Now, there's always someone out there, around the corner,
> that's
> smarter, or stronger, etc., but that shouldn't stop you. If fact, for some
> people,
> you're that guy! :)
>
Hmmm. I"d love to meet those folks! I figure for now I'm there to make other
folks realize they aren't half as bad as hey think!
Lawson Stone
nos...@nowhere.net wrote on 9/11/00 4:16 PM:
> I am in total agreement with some of you that the Kenny Werner book
> contains a large element of psychobabble but I can not agree that the
> book is worthless. Far from it. I haven't read all of this thread but it
> appears to me that Lawson here is one who felt ripped off by this book
> yet the types of self loathing and Lawson-bashing he is engaging in now
> are just the types of things that this book addresses and addresses well.
>
BTW I actually haven't read the book, but was just speaking up on Tom
Brown's behalf. I have read "Zen Guitar" though, if that counts!
> The bad things in this book are the Hindu-ish, Maharishi-ish "infinite
> field of creative intelligence" crap.
>
> The good stuff is the way he speaks about the attitude of detachment
> that a musician HAS TO HAVE in order to play well, let alone to play
> great.
>
> Lawson, you are too caught up in what you think you should be doing and
> not enjoying enough of what you ARE doing. If you don't love playing
> jazz guitar then DON'T DO IT. There are more important things in life
> than playing jazz guitar. Enjoy your life better. However if playing
> jazz guitar is CENTRAL to your enjoyment of your life then you had
> better start looking for a way out of this self loathing cycle you're
> in. Self loathing, worrying, getting tense and frustrated is WASTED
> energy. Nothing good can come from those activities. Certain things in
> life you have no control over. Concentrate better on what you can exact
> some control over.
>
It's worth thinking about. I really do want to play in ways derivative of my
"heroes" in music. And to get what I want, I guess I feel like there are
some "oughts" that implement the "wants."
> Detachment:
> One analogue I like to use is with sight reading. In order to be a good
> sight reader the PRIME DIRECTIVE is to not get hung up on your mistakes.
> As soon as you try to fix a mistake you're lost. It can't be done. You
> have to move on. The band will not stop for you to fix your mistake and
> you will be making an even bigger mistake, the biggest mistake, when you
> get lost. You have to detach yourself from the emotion involved in
> making that mistake and move on.
>
That's a keeper. I am a "stop and fix it" player and that means death to the
groove.
> The above is true for ALL aspects of music making. As Werner says, in
> order to master something you have to work your butt off on the task at
> hand and then learn to try LESS. Paradoxically that is the ONLY way it
> can happen. You have to be emotionally detached from the goal at every
> step of the way and enjoy the process.
>
SNIP
Thanks Joey for some useful advice.
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> BTW Other people from this group who have taken a corespondence lesson
> or two from me are Tom Spaulding (2 lessons) and Rick Ross (1 lesson).
>
> Chis Parsons studied privately with me for a while too.
>
> Talk to those guys if you want some insight into how I do things.
Almost forgot: Mike Evans still studies with me privately.
Thomas F Brown
Thomas F Brown
OASYSCO <oas...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Recently, I was in a music store testing out amps. One of the salepersons whom
>I know by sight from going there now and again came up and said, "Man, that
>Taylor (I was testing with my own guitar) sure is a nice sounding box. So, who
>are you playing with nowadays?"
>
>It was a good feeling to think that someone took for granted that I was a
>fellow musician, even though "musicianship" is something that I am aspiring to.
Don't want to burst your bubble, but the first thing they teach
you in music salesdroid school is to compliment the customer's
playing, no matter what kind of raucous crap it may be.
Flattery = sales.
John S. Clifford
There he goes again, bursting bubbles. You enjoy it, don't you? ;-)
John C.
Thomas F Brown
This is an excellent explication of what's worthwhile in Werner's
book. In fact, if you have this post you don't need the book,
because Joey has laid out the substantive content of the book
below. The rest of the book is filler.
In article <39BD3D87...@nowhere.net>,
Thomas F Brown
John S. Clifford <jcl...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Thomas F Brown wrote:
>>
>> Don't want to burst your bubble, but the first thing they teach
>> you in music salesdroid school is to compliment the customer's
>> playing, no matter what kind of raucous crap it may be.
>> Flattery = sales.
>
>There he goes again, bursting bubbles. You enjoy it, don't you? ;-)
No, but it needs to be said over and over again--the salesman
is not your friend.
Tom Lippincott
>I guess I should clarify my points a bit.
>
>I have always thought of jazz as learning a language. There is a vocabulary,
>a syntax, a set of idioms that make speakers able to communicate with one
>another. And when you're learning to speak a language, you sometimes
>encounter native speakers whose diction, grammar, and style are models of
>excellent usage. One of the best ways to learn a language is to imitate the
>speech of such people. The goal, of course, isn't to imitate them, but to
>exploit their exemplary competence in order to learn the fundamentals of
>forceful expression in that language. With that done, one starts mastering
>the more difficult task of speaking with a more personal style, allows one's
>personal eccentricities to come through, etc.
>
I've got to agree with you here. I really think the best way to learn any new
language is to immerse oneself as much as possible in the "foreign" culture.
>My frustration is that after many years, I still feel like I hardly have the
>ability to "say" even simple sentences in basic jazz vocabulary. As long as
>I've been at this, I wish that I could say I had the vocabulary and grammar
>of the music down well enough to express my own thoughts, but I'm just still
>not finding that fluency to be there. I appreciate players like Joe Pass,
>Wes, Kenny Burrell, etc. because they are exemplary models of the jazz
>vocabulary and style. I am not interested in "playing like them" but rather
>appreciate them as masters of the central inventory of jazz expressions, and
>masters of how those classic idioms and phrases fit together.
>
It still sounds to me that you are in the mindset of comparing yourself to Joe
Pass, et al. Not that you are trying to mimic all his personal stylistic
attributes or anything but that when you think of "jazz guitarist" you think of
Joe Pass and his level of fluency with the language, and anything "less" than
that isn't really satisfactory to be considered a "jazz guitarist" or to even
have fun playing. Believe me, I'm speaking not as some self appointed jazz
guitar guru, but as someone who has been down that path and still grapples with
some of those same issues. To me it's kind of like they say about being a
"recovering alchoholic;" you're never "cured," you just take it "one day at a
time."
>I feel like I'm still learning my ABC's after 10 years of jazz and 30 years
>of guitar in general.
>
>For some of you, the jazz vocabulary, the fundamentals of good phrasing, the
>near-universal stuff that makes jazz recognizable to many as such, has been
>mastered and you're working to say the things you want to say musically. I
>find after all this time that I still lack fluency in the fundamentals.
>
I can't help but wonder if maybe you have a bit of a misconception about people
like me that spend most of our time working on music, do it professionally,
ect. Obviously, I can't speak for others, but I really find that the more I
delve into learning jazz, music, ect. the more I keep coming back to the
"basics." I think that because I have gone "on record" as a fan of Effortless
Mastery, The Advancing Guitarist, talk about the "post modern" scene on this
group, and whatnot, you may get the impression that I sit around working on
really arcane stuff all day but the fact is, I probably work on a lot of the
same stuff you do. Basic things like technique, time feel, sight reading,
learning standards, learning to play over changes, ect. My guess is I don't
quite have the same number of hours logged (and/or maybe not the degree of
natural ability) as some of the players around here who have a few years on me
like Jimmy Bruno, Joey Goldstein, Mark Kleinhaut or Clay Moore (not to imply
that you guys are old!) but even so, I've spent quite a bit of time working
pretty hard on learning how to play jazz guitar and in a lot of ways I feel
more and more each day like I'm just barely scratching the surface of "learning
the tradition." In other words, like you, I still feel like I lack the amount
of fluency in the fundamentals that I'd like to have, and I keep seeing new
ways that I can improve things.
I have to agree with Joey (although take my new age psychobabble-laden opinion
with a grain of salt), that a lot of the frustrations you talk about are
addressed very intelligently in Werner's book, if you can weed through the
sanskrit terms and the "suggested meditations." Matter of fact, if you want to
take Tom Brown's advice and just skim through a borrowed copy I'd be more than
happy to lend you mine; just give me a mailing address.
>
>*****************************************************
>"Go sleep it off Ike; you talk too much for a fighting man"--Wyatt Earp
>Lawson Stone
chris berbaum
like that. Far from it, this group has been a wellspring of knowledge and
experience for me. And learned a few things about myself too :)
Like, first seek to understand, and then to be understood. For me, that
means for the most part, to shutup and listen, and I might learn something.
But I just couldn't stand the thought of someone giving up: I quit trumpet
("Hello, Dolly") in 8th grade so that I could have another study hall to
get my grades up. After all, I already had the guitar. One of the worse
mistakes I ever made.
So, selling the Heritage is only allowed if it's in trade for some other
guitar. The corollary (can't get another one, 'til you sell one), gets you
around that GAS thing, too! ;)
Lawson Stone
I have to say this discussion has really helped me get some distance and
objectivity on my own frustration. Hearing all you you talk about my
problem, forcing me to think seriously about just what I am discouraged
with, has been enormously helpful. I think I'm formulating some concrete
things to try.
You are dead right that when I think of "jazz guitarist" I really do think
of a couple of people like Joe Pass or Wes Montgomery at the top of their
game, and the great gulf between them and me controls a lot of my thinking.
Yet also, when we did that sampler some time back, and I listened to a lot
of the people on this group, I still heard a basic mastery of the idiom that
I don't hear in my own playing yet.
I attribute this to one basic thing, and that's a lack of feedback from
other jazz players, whether in playing with them, or their simply hearing
me, or from a teacher. Having concrete feedback from other players is a
reality check on one's ego, but can also be a reality check on
self-depreciation.
Anyhow, I'm feeling pretty good about renewing my efforts while at the same
time adjusting my expectations. Also I'm thinking I might just stop trying
to judge myself as a "jazz" guitarist and focus on simply playing these
great songs however I can, the best I can.
I do appreciate every post that has been made here, and I've read them all
very carefully and with gratitude for the insight that's here.
in article 20000912052417...@ng-fx1.aol.com, Tom Lippincott at
tomli...@aol.comnospam wrote on 9/12/00 5:24 AM:
chris berbaum
(sp?). Sometimes taking just a slightly different tact, and coming at it from a
little different direction helps me. There is plenty of "jazz" knowledge to be had
from things like Western Swing (Buddy Edmunds), or traditional bluegrass (Tony
Rice), or from "Hot" jazz (Django and Stephene). Maybe even a little Danny Gatton!
For Joe Pass, it seems that everybody raves about the solo stuff, but for me, I
always was able to get a handhold a little easier from the things he did in a group
setting. I have an import called "Joy Spring", that I just can't get off the
turntable.
And then when you come back to those things that were so frustrating, they might
seem different. Your ears have had a chance to recoup, and YOU bring a new
sensibility to it. Anyway, just don't give up too easily. :)
"throw down the jams, 'til the girls say when" :) Josie, Steely Dan
Joey Goldstein
Thomas F Brown wrote:
>
> In fact, if you have this post you don't need the book,
lol
joefi...@my-deja.com
student. He was likewise frustrated with his playing, lack of progress,
etc. My unsolicited free advice [which may not be worth paying for
anyhow :) ] may or may not apply.
First of all, everyone gets frustrated. Try to turn this around in the
woodshed. Practice. Redouble your efforts. Practice. Develop new
repertoire. Did I mention practicing?
Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery are players greatly admired by all of us but
it's probably a mistake to hold yourself to the standards they set.
You are not going to be the next Pat Martino and niether am I or anyone
else. Why not try to be the best Lawson Stone that you can be instead?
One of the things we love about the great ones is that they each found
their own voice. Yours is out there too waiting for you to claim it.
The other point about feedback from other players is important.
Connecting with other players and or instructors is crucial. If this is
not practical consider developing a couple hours of solo material and
take it to a local restaurant. In other words if you can't connect with
the players go to the audience directly.
You seem sincere in your dedication. Don't get dicouraged. Keep hangin'
tough. I'm pulling for you.... joe
In article <B5E39CA1.116DF%lawso...@mindspring.com>,
Tom Spaulding
That's two lessons so far...as soon as I get unbusy, I intend to
continue our sessions. I have re-listened to the tapes and worked with
the material a lot over the past couple of months. Your methods and
demeanor are excellent and I'll give a positive testimonial any day! I
can't imagine getting a more useful lesson in person, and I think the
distance (Toronto to Nashville) makes both student and teacher more
cognizant of the fact that clarity and honesty are vital to teaching and
learning.
Tom "Once and Future Jazz Guitar Student" Spaulding
Joey Goldstein
Tom Spaulding wrote:
>
> Joey-
>
> That's two lessons so far...as soon as I get unbusy, I intend to
> continue our sessions. I have re-listened to the tapes and worked with
> the material a lot over the past couple of months. Your methods and
> demeanor are excellent and I'll give a positive testimonial any day! I
> can't imagine getting a more useful lesson in person, and I think the
> distance (Toronto to Nashville) makes both student and teacher more
> cognizant of the fact that clarity and honesty are vital to teaching and
> learning.
>
> Tom "Once and Future Jazz Guitar Student" Spaulding
Hey look ... If you don't have anything nice to say then just keep quiet
eh .... <g>
Paul Craig Sanwald
: In article <39BA181E...@bestweb.net>,
: Willie K. Yee, MD <wyeeN...@bestweb.net> wrote:
: >
: >Secondly, I think I am rhythmically impaired. My time is not steady, the
: >feel of my lines are not smooth, and techniques such as being able to
: >control playing slightly ahead or behind the beat are beyond me.
:
: I think that the word "feel" is key here. Once you get into
: you body and mind what it feels like to be grooving, it's
: like heroin. You'll do anything to get that feeling back.
:
FWIW, you probably aren't rhythmically impaired. That just might be an area
you have to work extra hard at. Transcribing (and playing along with)
Charlie Christian really helped me a lot with feel, so maybe you could
try that.
Look on the bright side, at least you're *aware* that it's a problem. I've met
a lot of people that think their time feel is fine, and it's not. At least
we know we need to work on it :). Incidentally, I felt the same way as you did
a coupla years ago, and I guarantee you'll be able to work past it with a lot
of hard work.
--paul
Thomas F Brown
>other jazz players, whether in playing with them, or their simply hearing
>me, or from a teacher. Having concrete feedback from other players is a
>reality check on one's ego, but can also be a reality check on
>self-depreciation.
This is a huge factor in your development. I began to improve by
leaps and bounds after I felt good enough to start going out and
playing in bands and sitting in at jazz jams. It's very motivating,
and focuses your attention immediately on whatever is it you need
most to be working on. Even if you live in the boonies, it might be
worthwhile to drive to a city and sit in at a jazz jam at least once
every month or two.
Joey Goldstein
"Willie K. Yee, MD" wrote:
>
> Paul Craig Sanwald wrote:
> >
> > : Willie K. Yee, MD <wyeeN...@bestweb.net> wrote:
> > : >
> > : >Secondly, I think I am rhythmically impaired. . .
> >
> > Look on the bright side, at least you're *aware* that it's a problem. I've met
> > a lot of people that think their time feel is fine, and it's not.
>
> . . . We call them "drummers." 8-)
So many drummers ... so little time.
Willie K. Yee, MD
Paul Craig Sanwald wrote:
>
> : Willie K. Yee, MD <wyeeN...@bestweb.net> wrote:
> : >
> : >Secondly, I think I am rhythmically impaired. . .
>
> Look on the bright side, at least you're *aware* that it's a problem. I've met
> a lot of people that think their time feel is fine, and it's not.
. . . We call them "drummers." 8-)
--
Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/~wyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry
http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band
http://www.bigbluebigband.com
Remove "DONTSPAM" from return address to reply.