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Ampeg Reverberocket Problem
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rpjazzguitar
Sep 21, 2013, 7:00:58 PM9/21/13
to
Any ideas about this would be appreciated.
This is a 1964 amp, solid state rectifier. R12R.
I've had it in the shop twice, but this hasn't been fixed. I'm hoping to get some idea of what it is before I take it in again. I think the problem has been intermittent in the past so that the tech might have thought he'd fixed it.
The amp works fine if the reverb is off.
With the reverb on, the amp sounds fine as long as it isn't very loud, meaning quiet bedroom practice volume.
If I turn it louder than that, the amp will start to break up. The first thing that happens is that it breaks up on F (E string 13th fret, but also B string 6th fret). As I turn it louder it will start breaking up on other notes.
At any given time I can turn the reverb knob to zero and the problem goes away.
The "breaking up" sound is hard to describe ... it is severe distortion, but it's not musical at all. More like fingernails on a blackboard.
The reverb pot is quite noisy when I turn it. The problem can be heard at just about any point in its rotation except zero.
The tubes were all just replaced. I don't think that impacted this problem.
Oh, at one point the amp started to hum badly for a few seconds. Turning the reverb knob to zero solved the problem. This was unusual, I can't recall hearing the same humming before.
I have double checked all the external connections to the tank. They seem solid.
So, could this just be a bad pot?
Bad tank?
Bad tube? (this one seems unlikely, since a replacement didn't help)
Bad something else? If so, any ideas what the tech should be looking for?
TIA,
Rick
This is a 1964 amp, solid state rectifier. R12R.
I've had it in the shop twice, but this hasn't been fixed. I'm hoping to get some idea of what it is before I take it in again. I think the problem has been intermittent in the past so that the tech might have thought he'd fixed it.
The amp works fine if the reverb is off.
With the reverb on, the amp sounds fine as long as it isn't very loud, meaning quiet bedroom practice volume.
If I turn it louder than that, the amp will start to break up. The first thing that happens is that it breaks up on F (E string 13th fret, but also B string 6th fret). As I turn it louder it will start breaking up on other notes.
At any given time I can turn the reverb knob to zero and the problem goes away.
The "breaking up" sound is hard to describe ... it is severe distortion, but it's not musical at all. More like fingernails on a blackboard.
The reverb pot is quite noisy when I turn it. The problem can be heard at just about any point in its rotation except zero.
The tubes were all just replaced. I don't think that impacted this problem.
Oh, at one point the amp started to hum badly for a few seconds. Turning the reverb knob to zero solved the problem. This was unusual, I can't recall hearing the same humming before.
I have double checked all the external connections to the tank. They seem solid.
So, could this just be a bad pot?
Bad tank?
Bad tube? (this one seems unlikely, since a replacement didn't help)
Bad something else? If so, any ideas what the tech should be looking for?
TIA,
Rick
Lord Valve
Sep 21, 2013, 7:15:53 PM9/21/13
to
that has a solid-state rectifier is called the R12RB.
Assuming that that's the one you have - it should be
full of old-style large format preamp tubes like the
6SN7, 6SL7, etc., and use a pair of 7591 for power
tubes - tell your tech to check C23 for leakage. Also,
tell him to *replace* C20, as this cap drives the tank
and is usually shot after 50 years of doing that. ;-)
A super-noisy pot is often an indication of some
DC voltage being present on it, and a leaky C23
would cause that.
Best guess I can make without hands-on troubleshooting.
Lord Valve
Expert
RS
Sep 21, 2013, 11:26:30 PM9/21/13
to
On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 16:00:58 -0700 (PDT), rpjazzguitar
<rpjazz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Any ideas about this would be appreciated.
>
>This is a 1964 amp, solid state rectifier. R12R.
>
>I've had it in the shop twice, but this hasn't been fixed. I'm hoping to get some idea of what it is before I take it in again. I think the problem has been intermittent in the past so that the tech might have thought he'd fixed it.
>
>The amp works fine if the reverb is off.
>
>With the reverb on, the amp sounds fine as long as it isn't very loud, meaning quiet bedroom practice volume.
>
>If I turn it louder than that, the amp will start to break up. The first thing that happens is that it breaks up on F (E string 13th fret, but also B string 6th fret). As I turn it louder it will start breaking up on other notes.
<rpjazz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Any ideas about this would be appreciated.
>
>This is a 1964 amp, solid state rectifier. R12R.
>
>I've had it in the shop twice, but this hasn't been fixed. I'm hoping to get some idea of what it is before I take it in again. I think the problem has been intermittent in the past so that the tech might have thought he'd fixed it.
>
>The amp works fine if the reverb is off.
>
>With the reverb on, the amp sounds fine as long as it isn't very loud, meaning quiet bedroom practice volume.
>
>If I turn it louder than that, the amp will start to break up. The first thing that happens is that it breaks up on F (E string 13th fret, but also B string 6th fret). As I turn it louder it will start breaking up on other notes.
>The "breaking up" sound is hard to describe ... it is severe distortion, but it's not musical at all. More like fingernails on a blackboard.
>
>The reverb pot is quite noisy when I turn it. The problem can be heard at just about any point in its rotation except zero.
>
>The tubes were all just replaced. I don't think that impacted this problem.
>
>Oh, at one point the amp started to hum badly for a few seconds. Turning the reverb knob to zero solved the problem. This was unusual, I can't recall hearing the same humming before.
>
>I have double checked all the external connections to the tank. They seem solid.
Hi Rick,
>
>The reverb pot is quite noisy when I turn it. The problem can be heard at just about any point in its rotation except zero.
>
>The tubes were all just replaced. I don't think that impacted this problem.
>
>Oh, at one point the amp started to hum badly for a few seconds. Turning the reverb knob to zero solved the problem. This was unusual, I can't recall hearing the same humming before.
>
>I have double checked all the external connections to the tank. They seem solid.
Didn't you post about this same amp a couple years ago? Maybe I'm
mis-remembering, but I thought I had advised you to look for a
vibrational problem. Your account above describes typical symptoms:
Raspy 'enharmonic' distortion, resonance with certain frequencies,
senstitive to volume level. I'd usually advise cleaning all the
external reverb pan contacts, but it sounds like you've done that.
Still, try plugging/unplugging the tubes a couple times to (hopefully)
break thru any oxidation on the pins.
There are a few different models of Reverberocket with SS rectifiers,
including a couple different amps in the R12-R series. Ampeg was never
real consistent with their model numbers, so there are R12-R's with
tube rectifiers, one with 6V6 output tubes, one with 7591's, one with
7868's. Some have 12ax7's and 'color TV' tubes (don't ask). Others
have all 'octal' tubes (base of the tube is the same size as that of
the output tubes).
I have schematics for most of those, but maybe you can narrow down the
exact model by listing the tube numbers.
In the meanwhile, maybe you can try using something similar to a soft
drummer's mallet to gently tap on the tubes and reverb pan to see if
anything registers. Keep the reverb turned down.
You're probably headed back to the tech in any case (same guy who
failed to find this before?) It's a good idea to check all the caps
for leakage. Any DC iso cap coming from a tube plate should be tested
for residual DC level on the other side of the cap. The tech should
understand that.
RS
Sep 21, 2013, 11:31:11 PM9/21/13
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On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 17:15:53 -0600, Lord Valve
<detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>The only Reverberocket I can find in my schemo stash
>that has a solid-state rectifier is called the R12RB.
There were several amps in the R12-R and Reverberocket series that had
<detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>The only Reverberocket I can find in my schemo stash
>that has a solid-state rectifier is called the R12RB.
solid state rectifiers, including a plain R12-R, as Rick indicated.
Nice to see a break from the flood of Daniel Stearns posts though.
RS
Sep 22, 2013, 12:02:03 AM9/22/13
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On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 23:26:30 -0400, RS <R...@sorrynospam.com> wrote:
>
>In the meanwhile, maybe you can try using something similar to a soft
>drummer's mallet to gently tap on the tubes and reverb pan to see if
>anything registers. Keep the reverb turned down.
Clarification: You need to turn the reverb up -a bit.- But be
>
>In the meanwhile, maybe you can try using something similar to a soft
>drummer's mallet to gently tap on the tubes and reverb pan to see if
>anything registers. Keep the reverb turned down.
prepared for loud nasty sound if you tap the problem spot. Of course
the problem may also be internal to the amp. Cold solder connection,
bad component, etc.
rpjazzguitar
Sep 22, 2013, 12:41:40 AM9/22/13
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thank you RS and LV.
Yes it's the one with the 7591, 6SL7, 6SN7 and so forth.
And, yes, I did post about this amp a couple of years ago. I can't recall if that was before or after the amp's last visit to the tech.
But I pulled it out again today and, for a moment there, it sounded great.
I've done all the tapping, wiggling and replugging things that I can do.
The thing had a cap job, but I think that was just the big filter caps.
I'm inclined to replace the caps that LV mentioned myself (I don't know how to check for leakage, but I can unsolder a cap and solder in a new one, I guess). As I recall it, all the components are laid out where I can get to them. If it doesn't help, it's just my time and a few bucks in parts.
Thanks again.
Yes it's the one with the 7591, 6SL7, 6SN7 and so forth.
And, yes, I did post about this amp a couple of years ago. I can't recall if that was before or after the amp's last visit to the tech.
But I pulled it out again today and, for a moment there, it sounded great.
I've done all the tapping, wiggling and replugging things that I can do.
The thing had a cap job, but I think that was just the big filter caps.
I'm inclined to replace the caps that LV mentioned myself (I don't know how to check for leakage, but I can unsolder a cap and solder in a new one, I guess). As I recall it, all the components are laid out where I can get to them. If it doesn't help, it's just my time and a few bucks in parts.
Thanks again.
RS
Sep 22, 2013, 2:22:15 AM9/22/13
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On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 21:41:40 -0700 (PDT), rpjazzguitar
<rpjazz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Yes it's the one with the 7591, 6SL7, 6SN7 and so forth.
Excellent. That will be a great sounding amp when you get it fixed up.
<rpjazz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Yes it's the one with the 7591, 6SL7, 6SN7 and so forth.
Old 7591's are really tough to find, but the new ones aren't that bad.
That's one of my favorite output tubes.
6SL7's and 6SN7's are also great sounding tubes. Huge plates compared
to 12ax7's, and unlike 7591's, you can still find them.
You said it was retubed, so I hope that you got the older tubes back.
Those may still be in pretty good shape, and of course 'they don't
make em like that any more.'
>And, yes, I did post about this amp a couple of years ago.
> I can't recall if that was before or after the amp's last visit to the tech.
the tech's work at the time.
>But I pulled it out again today and, for a moment there, it sounded great.
>
>I've done all the tapping, wiggling and replugging things that I can do.
contacts can loosen up, which can cause a similar problem.
>The thing had a cap job, but I think that was just the big filter caps.
> (I don't know how to check for leakage, but I can unsolder a cap and
> solder in a new one, I guess). As I recall it, all the components are
> laid out where I can get to them. If it doesn't help, it's just my
> time and a few bucks in parts.
you'd need to work on the amp 'live,' so you'd need to be careful. If
you decide you want to try that, I can tell you how to take the
measurements.
You could replace all the caps in the problem area. Not a bad idea
for old paper caps, but that's still no guarantee. It could be just
about anything. If it's a cold solder joint, that could be corrected
by just remelting all the solder connections.
Obviously you know that filter caps can hold charge for quite a while.
This is more likely if you just flip the amp on and back off again
quickly, as the output tubes don't have a chance to heat up and drain
the charge off the filter caps.
When I know I'm going to be working on an amp for a while, I solder in
bleeder resistors to drain the supply faster on power-down. Filter
caps discharge exponentially (ski slope), so some voltage will remain,
but it will take a lot of the sting out of it if you do get hit.
>Thanks again.
Sure thing.
rpjazzguitar
Sep 22, 2013, 3:49:47 AM9/22/13
to
I appreciate the help.
The tech promised NOS tubes and some other work for $300, which was an excellent price. If there were 7591 NOS available, google didn't know about it. He said he had a source.
But, in fact, he didn't deliver NOS, so there was a discussion. He eventually refunded some money. The 7591's are JJ's. I think the amp sounded better with the original tubes, but it sounded pretty good with the new tubes before this problem recurred. I think it may be a little muddier on chords. That bit of breakup (this time I'm not talking about the problem,rather, the sound of tube distortion) sounds okay on lead, but not so good on comping jazz.
I understand the issue of stored juice in the big caps. I'm no expert, and I'm no daredevil. I figure I can work with the amp off, give it time for the caps to discharge and maybe even put the right resistor between two leads and make sure the thing is discharged by bridging the cap leads with it.
Then, I can replace the two caps LV mentioned, hopefully easily enough. Iirc I should be able to do it without taking the board out .. just identify the caps, unsolder them from the component side of the board (or cut them) and solder in the replacements.
The tech promised NOS tubes and some other work for $300, which was an excellent price. If there were 7591 NOS available, google didn't know about it. He said he had a source.
But, in fact, he didn't deliver NOS, so there was a discussion. He eventually refunded some money. The 7591's are JJ's. I think the amp sounded better with the original tubes, but it sounded pretty good with the new tubes before this problem recurred. I think it may be a little muddier on chords. That bit of breakup (this time I'm not talking about the problem,rather, the sound of tube distortion) sounds okay on lead, but not so good on comping jazz.
I understand the issue of stored juice in the big caps. I'm no expert, and I'm no daredevil. I figure I can work with the amp off, give it time for the caps to discharge and maybe even put the right resistor between two leads and make sure the thing is discharged by bridging the cap leads with it.
Then, I can replace the two caps LV mentioned, hopefully easily enough. Iirc I should be able to do it without taking the board out .. just identify the caps, unsolder them from the component side of the board (or cut them) and solder in the replacements.
Lord Valve
Sep 22, 2013, 7:13:18 AM9/22/13
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rpjazzguitar
Sep 23, 2013, 4:28:47 AM9/23/13
to
thanks in advance for some more assistance ...
I found the schematic on line (and there's one inside the back panel of the amp), and I found C20 and C23. One is listed at .5 and the other at .005.
Do I assume these are uf (microfarads)?
Also, what type/voltage rating do I get? I've heard guys talk about some capacitors being way better than others ... what do I want to buy?
And, for another stupid question ... do I have to trace the circuit to correctly identify C20 and C23 or is there some easier way? I don't recall a board layout diagram in the schematic inside the amp.
I found the schematic on line (and there's one inside the back panel of the amp), and I found C20 and C23. One is listed at .5 and the other at .005.
Do I assume these are uf (microfarads)?
Also, what type/voltage rating do I get? I've heard guys talk about some capacitors being way better than others ... what do I want to buy?
And, for another stupid question ... do I have to trace the circuit to correctly identify C20 and C23 or is there some easier way? I don't recall a board layout diagram in the schematic inside the amp.
Lord Valve
Sep 23, 2013, 9:35:59 AM9/23/13
to
rpjazzguitar wrote:
> thanks in advance for some more assistance ...
>
> I found the schematic on line (and there's one inside the back panel of the amp), and I found C20 and C23. One is listed at .5 and the other at .005.
>
> Do I assume these are uf (microfarads)?
Yep.
> thanks in advance for some more assistance ...
>
> I found the schematic on line (and there's one inside the back panel of the amp), and I found C20 and C23. One is listed at .5 and the other at .005.
>
> Do I assume these are uf (microfarads)?
> Also, what type/voltage rating do I get? I've heard guys talk about some capacitors being way better than others ... what do I want to buy?
The .005 (.0047, see below) is a fairly small part, and the most
readlily available voltage will probably be 600 or 630. 400 would
be fine. You don't need anything special here, a Sprague Orange
Drop (or similar) will do.
The .5 (you may not find any .5uF caps, because the value
was standardized to .47 by the Yurps awhile back) works
pretty hard, so I like to use something good here. The Solen
Fast .47 polypropylene is my choice; get the one rated at
630 volts. This is slightly less than an inch long and slightly
less than a half-inch thick. (It's a cylinder.) You could use
an Orange Drop, but it's the size of a beer can. (JK, but
it's fairly porky. ;-)
> And, for another stupid question ... do I have to trace the circuit to correctly identify C20 and C23
> or is there some easier way?
You could trace the reverb tank cables back into the
chassis and see where they connect. The send cable
(that's the one connected to the "INPUT" jack on the
tank) will go directly to one end of the .5uF cap. The
return cable will connect to pin 4 of the recovery tube;
the .005 will be connected to pin 5 of the same tube.
Don't expect to find the cap hanging off the socket pin,
though - there will probably be a wire that runs from
that pin to the terminal board; the .005 will be connected
to the same terminal...maybe. There may be a jumper
that goes to another terminal where the cap is located.
> I don't recall a board layout diagram in the schematic inside the amp.
Lord Valve
Expert
rpjazzguitar
Sep 23, 2013, 3:16:17 PM9/23/13
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rpjazzguitar
Sep 23, 2013, 3:16:48 PM9/23/13
to
I'm glad I asked!
Thanks for being generous with your time and info.
Rick
Thanks for being generous with your time and info.
Rick
rpjazzguitar
Oct 25, 2013, 1:49:33 AM10/25/13
to
I finally got around to it. I bought the parts LV indicated. The store didn't have the polypropaline cap, so I got a ceramic. I probably should have waited, but I figured if it didn't work, I'd just do it over.
The amp hadn't been turned on in weeks, so I wasn't very worried about the big caps killing me, but I shorted them out anyway, and nothing happened.
Most of the excitement was in trying to figure out which components were C20 and C23. One of them was fairly obvious because it was connected to the "Dimension" pot. The other, the .47uF, was not at all obvious. I tried tracing the wires. Not easy. It was like a trip back in time. Nobody has touched these wires for 49 years. There were layers of them, very tight confines and sometimes no way to see where anything was going without risking breaking something I wouldn't know how to fix. Did I mention that I've never done this before?
Eventually, I decided to reason backwards. I figured that .47uf is a lot of capacitance so it had to be a bigger object. I started with the biggest object e in that part of the board and managed to trace both ends to roughly where the schematic suggested.
As LV said, don't expect to find it next to whatever it links to electronically. Apparently, they line up the components on the eyelet board, if that's what it's called, and then they run wires to where they hook up. I imagine they put some thought into making those wires short, but not so you'd notice at my level of understanding.
I couldn't see the label without removing it. I wasn't 100% certain, but the worst thing would be that I replaced a good component.
Anyway, when I removed it I was able to see that it was, in fact, .47 uF. It's blue and it says KONOUR .47MFD 400V 5.64.
The schematic indicated that it wasn't polarized, and, I didn't find any indication of + or - leads on the one I took out, or on the one I put in.
Soldering in the new one was the easy part. Anticlimax, really.
So, I put the back back on, plugged it in and ...
At first, the noise I was trying to fix was still there -- a very unpleasant distorted sound, only with reverb on, and only with the amp played loud and the guitar hit hard. But, for whatever reason, after a few minutes it disappeared and, so far, hasn't come back.
So, I'm guessing it's premature to give this amp a clean bill of health.
Still, much thanks to Lord Valve who put me on the track, and the parts cost all of $2.47.
The amp hadn't been turned on in weeks, so I wasn't very worried about the big caps killing me, but I shorted them out anyway, and nothing happened.
Most of the excitement was in trying to figure out which components were C20 and C23. One of them was fairly obvious because it was connected to the "Dimension" pot. The other, the .47uF, was not at all obvious. I tried tracing the wires. Not easy. It was like a trip back in time. Nobody has touched these wires for 49 years. There were layers of them, very tight confines and sometimes no way to see where anything was going without risking breaking something I wouldn't know how to fix. Did I mention that I've never done this before?
Eventually, I decided to reason backwards. I figured that .47uf is a lot of capacitance so it had to be a bigger object. I started with the biggest object e in that part of the board and managed to trace both ends to roughly where the schematic suggested.
As LV said, don't expect to find it next to whatever it links to electronically. Apparently, they line up the components on the eyelet board, if that's what it's called, and then they run wires to where they hook up. I imagine they put some thought into making those wires short, but not so you'd notice at my level of understanding.
I couldn't see the label without removing it. I wasn't 100% certain, but the worst thing would be that I replaced a good component.
Anyway, when I removed it I was able to see that it was, in fact, .47 uF. It's blue and it says KONOUR .47MFD 400V 5.64.
The schematic indicated that it wasn't polarized, and, I didn't find any indication of + or - leads on the one I took out, or on the one I put in.
Soldering in the new one was the easy part. Anticlimax, really.
So, I put the back back on, plugged it in and ...
At first, the noise I was trying to fix was still there -- a very unpleasant distorted sound, only with reverb on, and only with the amp played loud and the guitar hit hard. But, for whatever reason, after a few minutes it disappeared and, so far, hasn't come back.
So, I'm guessing it's premature to give this amp a clean bill of health.
Still, much thanks to Lord Valve who put me on the track, and the parts cost all of $2.47.
Bill Godwin
Oct 25, 2013, 7:21:10 AM10/25/13
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rpjazzguitar
Oct 25, 2013, 4:22:27 PM10/25/13
to
Sadly, it didn't solve the problem. False dawn yesterday. Same noise today.
So, either there was something else wrong, or, LV was right and I didn't replace the correct capacitors.
The problem is now loud horrible sounding distortion, only when the reverb is turned up with the knob, and worse on some notes (D and E) than others.
I tried one other thing. I took all the tubes out and replaced them with the old ones. That didn't solve the problem, although I thought the old tubes sounded a little smoother (but hummed a bit more).
So, either there was something else wrong, or, LV was right and I didn't replace the correct capacitors.
The problem is now loud horrible sounding distortion, only when the reverb is turned up with the knob, and worse on some notes (D and E) than others.
I tried one other thing. I took all the tubes out and replaced them with the old ones. That didn't solve the problem, although I thought the old tubes sounded a little smoother (but hummed a bit more).
rpjazzguitar
Oct 25, 2013, 5:40:24 PM10/25/13
to
FIXED! FIXED! FIXED!
Here's the story.
I wondered if the problem might be in the tank. I don't know anything about how to diagnose that, but I figured I'd connect the input of the tank to the output, bypassing the tank entirely.
Of course, I don't have the connector for that (two RCA females, connected) so I rig my one alligator clip and I touch stick the grounds together using the little wings of the male connector.
A lot of distortion, but not the noise. I figure the output of the tank isn't supposed to be as hot as the input, so I'm overdriving something, but the main finding is that I don't hear the problem, so I'm figuring it's the tank.
As I fiddle with making these connections, I notice that wiggling the wire at the tank output makes incredible noise -- and of the type I'm trying to get rid of.
I take a plastic pen and poke the wires, eventually finding that the male connector to the tank at the output side fits loosely. It's stuck in there ok (which was the first thing I ever checked when I got this problem), but it's wiggling imperceptibly (to the eye, the ear perceived it just fine).
So, I take a pair of pliers and I crimp the little wings that make the ground connection and stick it back in, nice and tight. No wiggle and no problem.
This, to be fair to the people that tried to help, was the first thing I was advised to check. I pressed it in, concluding, erroneously, that it was tight. That was, I'm ashamed to say, in 2009 and hundreds of dollars ago.
Presumably, what happened was that the tank vibrates and after 49 years the connector loosened up. That connector is one of the few things in this amp that Ampeg didn't manufacture. I think they made a hell of an amp.
Here's the story.
I wondered if the problem might be in the tank. I don't know anything about how to diagnose that, but I figured I'd connect the input of the tank to the output, bypassing the tank entirely.
Of course, I don't have the connector for that (two RCA females, connected) so I rig my one alligator clip and I touch stick the grounds together using the little wings of the male connector.
A lot of distortion, but not the noise. I figure the output of the tank isn't supposed to be as hot as the input, so I'm overdriving something, but the main finding is that I don't hear the problem, so I'm figuring it's the tank.
As I fiddle with making these connections, I notice that wiggling the wire at the tank output makes incredible noise -- and of the type I'm trying to get rid of.
I take a plastic pen and poke the wires, eventually finding that the male connector to the tank at the output side fits loosely. It's stuck in there ok (which was the first thing I ever checked when I got this problem), but it's wiggling imperceptibly (to the eye, the ear perceived it just fine).
So, I take a pair of pliers and I crimp the little wings that make the ground connection and stick it back in, nice and tight. No wiggle and no problem.
This, to be fair to the people that tried to help, was the first thing I was advised to check. I pressed it in, concluding, erroneously, that it was tight. That was, I'm ashamed to say, in 2009 and hundreds of dollars ago.
Presumably, what happened was that the tank vibrates and after 49 years the connector loosened up. That connector is one of the few things in this amp that Ampeg didn't manufacture. I think they made a hell of an amp.
ott...@hotmail.com
Oct 26, 2013, 11:29:15 AM10/26/13
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