Diminished Chords
kaetae
In popular music, "diminished" is usually synonymous with "diminished
seventh", which is root-b3-b5-bb7 (yes, double-flatted seventh).
So Cdim = Cdim7 = C-Eb-Gb-Bbb = C-Eb-Gb-A.
Cdim7 is often notated as "C-followed-by-a-raised-circle".
A related chord, the half-diminished (also called "minor seventh/flat
fifth", replaces the double-flatted seventh with a flatted seventh;
thus, Cm7-5 (or Cm7b5) = C-Eb-Gb-Bb. Cm7-5 is often notated as
"C-followed-by-a-raised- circle-with-a-diagonal-slash-through-it".
Pat
Ethan Young
lower with it's root raised 1/2 step. Just easier for me, I guess. And I
think it's easy to remember when considering chord shapes, perhaps even
arpeggios and the like.
What do you guys think?
Later,
Ethan Young
"kaetae" <kae...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B4F169A...@earthlink.net...
Andrew Lee
A fine family of chords .... I wonder what altered 7ths are dimished?
(7b9) ....
--
Andrew_Lee AT Earthlink DOT Net
Friends don't let friends watch MTV
Bob Agnew
old Nick Maniloff books; they just listed the number of half tones in each
interval. A diminished 7th was 3/2 + 3/2 + 3/2 and a half diminished
becomes 3/2 + 3/2 + 2.
"kaetae" <kae...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B4F169A...@earthlink.net...
RobinsonCHAZZ
<< Personally, I like the mental picture created created by the
formulas in the
old Nick Maniloff books; they just listed the number of half tones in each
interval. A diminished 7th was 3/2 + 3/2 + 3/2 and a half diminished
becomes 3/2 + 3/2 + 2.
<< > Pat >>
Ethan Young
while as to why a minor third is 3 frets, but a major third is 4. I don't
even wanna know the frets in a major 7th interval...hmmm.....
note to self: find out the fret distances for various intervals to increase
level of fluency when projecting mental song ideas onto guitar.
Later,
Ethan
"RobinsonCHAZZ" <robins...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010715222806...@ng-fl1.aol.com...
Bill Casady
>while as to why a minor third is 3 frets, but a major third is 4. I don't
>even wanna know the frets in a major 7th interval...hmmm.....
The intervals' names are based on the notes in a diatonic scale, not on frets.
I can see how trying to make sense out of naming them with fret distances would
create a little doubt.
Regards,
Bill C
Bob Russell
Young at laisse...@att.net wrote on 7/16/01 2:40 AM:
> note to self: find out the fret distances for various intervals to increase
> level of fluency when projecting mental song ideas onto guitar.
Don't forget to figure the intervals across the fingerboard too; you're
going to be using them that way a lot more often. Throw in an ear-training
factor while you're at it; have a knowledgeable friend play an interval at
random (telling you the starting note), then you try to play the same
interval. Work like that takes intervals out of the realm of "theory" and
into the realm of "stuff you can play with".
-- Bob Russell
http://www.uncwil.edu/people/russellr
Albert Silverman
kaetae <kae...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Diminished
>
>In popular music, "diminished" is usually synonymous with "diminished
>seventh", which is root-b3-b5-bb7 (yes, double-flatted seventh).
Really?
Much more sensible is: 1-b3-b5-6.
That's right. What you call "bb7" is really the SIXTH SCALE DEGREE. It is
nonsensical to refer to this degree as bb7.
And I do mean NONSENSICAL.
>So Cdim = Cdim7 = C-Eb-Gb-Bbb = C-Eb-Gb-A.
>Cdim7 is often notated as "C-followed-by-a-raised-circle".
>
>A related chord, the half-diminished (also called "minor seventh/flat
>fifth", replaces the double-flatted seventh with a flatted seventh;
>thus, Cm7-5 (or Cm7b5) = C-Eb-Gb-Bb. Cm7-5 is often notated as
>"C-followed-by-a-raised- circle-with-a-diagonal-slash-through-it".
It is also NONSENSICAL to refer to this chord (1-b3-b5-b7) as a
"half-diminished" chord.
Albert Silverman
(Al is in Wonderland!)
>
>Pat
>
Albert Silverman
Ethan Young <(laissez_faire)@att.net> wrote:
>I think I'd like to think of "diminished 7" as a dominant chord 1/2 step
>lower with it's root raised 1/2 step. Just easier for me, I guess. And I
>think it's easy to remember when considering chord shapes, perhaps even
>arpeggios and the like.
>What do you guys think?
I think that this is ABSURDLY RIDICULOUS!
Albert Silverman
(Al is in Wonderland!)
>
>Later,
>Ethan Young
not later--now!
Claus Rogge
> It is also NONSENSICAL to refer to this chord (1-b3-b5-b7) as a
> "half-diminished" chord.
It's just a name that people use. Why not use htat term?
--
Claus Rogge
Listen to my music!
http://www.mp3.com/ClausRogge
Mark Kleinhaut
"Ethan Young" <(laissez_faire)@att.net> wrote:
>I think I'd like to think of "diminished 7" as a dominant chord 1/2 step
>lower with it's root raised 1/2 step. Just easier for me, I guess. And
I
>think it's easy to remember when considering chord shapes, perhaps even
>arpeggios and the like.
>What do you guys think?
Ethan, this approach is not rediculous from a practical point of view, but
demonstrates that you are looking at the guitar neck visually, that is; equating
shapes with sounds and not thinking about theory (which may be fine).
But try thinking (or visualizing) about it from the opposite direction; that
the dom 7th chord is derived FROM lowering one note of a diminished chord.
For example, the dim chord spelled C-Eb-Gb-A has the following possiblities.
lower the C to B and you have a B7th.
lower the Eb to D and you have D7th
lower the Gb to F and you have F7
lower the A to Ab and you have Ab7
These four dominant chords have one diminished chord parent which creates
substitution opportunities (kinda like how siblings make viable organ donors
for each other:)) Anyway, try subbing these doms for each other and try alternating
the I chord resolutions that each of them imply (as a V chord). That might
keep you busy for a while.
PS. I don't consider this to be theory as much as just a practical shortcut
for finding subs. It does also help clarify why some things work.
PPSS, I'd still rather talk about gear.
Mark Kleinhaut markkl...@hotmail.com
Follow URL's for info and soundclips about:
my debut album "Amphora"
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
my newest album "Secrets of Three"
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
Albert Silverman
Claus Rogge <rogge...@aon.at> wrote:
>Albert Silverman wrote (16.07.2001 20:20 ):
>
>> It is also NONSENSICAL to refer to this chord (1-b3-b5-b7) as a
>> "half-diminished" chord.
>
>It's just a name that people use. Why not use htat term?
Because the name should have a correlation with the *function* of the
chord. The term "half-diminished" has no such correlation.
That's why!
Albert Silverman
(Al is in Wonderland!)
>
Colin Cotter
> In article <B779105D.5407%rogge...@aon.at>,
> Claus Rogge <rogge...@aon.at> wrote:
> >Albert Silverman wrote (16.07.2001 20:20 ):
> >
> >> It is also NONSENSICAL to refer to this chord (1-b3-b5-b7) as a
> >> "half-diminished" chord.
> >
> >It's just a name that people use. Why not use htat term?
>
> Because the name should have a correlation with the *function* of the
> chord. The term "half-diminished" has no such correlation.
Do you mean a statistical correlation?
Stan Gosnell
>In article <B779105D.5407%rogge...@aon.at>,
>Claus Rogge <rogge...@aon.at> wrote:
>>Albert Silverman wrote (16.07.2001 20:20 ):
>>
>>> It is also NONSENSICAL to refer to this chord (1-b3-b5-b7) as a
>>> "half-diminished" chord.
>>
>>It's just a name that people use. Why not use htat term?
>
>Because the name should have a correlation with the *function* of the
>chord. The term "half-diminished" has no such correlation.
>
>That's why!
>
>
>Albert Silverman
>(Al is in Wonderland!)
Oh, lord, Joey, now you've done it! Maybe I'll have to plonk both of you.
--
Regards,
Stan
Joey Goldstein
What did I do? This is my first post in this thread. Albert came here
all on his own if that's what you're getting at.
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Stan Gosnell
<3B55BD4E...@nowhere.net>:
>What did I do? This is my first post in this thread. Albert came here
>all on his own if that's what you're getting at.
He hadn't been here at all until your post about him. He searches the
newsgroups for his name, & if you speak his name, he will appear.
--
Regards,
Stan
Joey Goldstein
Stan Gosnell wrote:
>
> joegoldATidirectDOTcom (Joey Goldstein) wrote in
> <3B55BD4E...@nowhere.net>:
>
> >What did I do? This is my first post in this thread. Albert came here
> >all on his own if that's what you're getting at.
>
> He hadn't been here at all until your post about him.
Wrong. My post about him was a warning to newbies after he had already
made an inflammatory post.
> He searches the
> newsgroups for his name, & if you speak his name, he will appear.
--
Max Leggett
No. Albert did a post here, and Joey responded with his warning. A
good warning, too.
Claus Rogge
> No. Albert did a post here, and Joey responded with his warning. A
> good warning, too.
Oops. I had read the warning, but I wasn't aware it was the very guy I was
answering.
Stan Gosnell
I guess my plonk file is intermittent. I didn't see his post until a
couple of days after Joey's.
--
Regards,
Stan
Albert Silverman
used (and heard) in a musical context.
For example, when you see that a chord contains a lowered fifth degree (b5
in the above chord), you can expect a certain type of sound and
expectation that the chord will probably progress to another chord in a
rather specific manner. But when you see the name "diminished seventh" or
"half diminished," you cannot relate these terms to the expected
progression from the chord.
Colin Cotter
Is it me or are we digging up a thread that was here a while back? I'm
confoosed.
Colin Cotter
> In article <3B55663D...@ic.ac.uk>,
> Colin Cotter <colin....@ic.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Albert Silverman wrote:
> >
> >> In article <B779105D.5407%rogge...@aon.at>,
> >> Claus Rogge <rogge...@aon.at> wrote:
> >> >Albert Silverman wrote (16.07.2001 20:20 ):
> >> >
> >> >> It is also NONSENSICAL to refer to this chord (1-b3-b5-b7) as a
> >> >> "half-diminished" chord.
> >> >
> >> >It's just a name that people use. Why not use htat term?
> >>
> >> Because the name should have a correlation with the *function* of the
> >> chord. The term "half-diminished" has no such correlation.
> >
> >Do you mean a statistical correlation?
> >
> No. I mean that the name should relate to the manner in which the chord is
> used (and heard) in a musical context.
That's not corrrelation.
> For example, when you see that a chord contains a lowered fifth degree (b5
> in the above chord), you can expect a certain type of sound and
> expectation that the chord will probably progress to another chord in a
> rather specific manner. But when you see the name "diminished seventh" or
> "half diminished," you cannot relate these terms to the expected
> progression from the chord.
So what are the expected progressions from the following chords
Adim7?
Amin7b5?
Robby
typical use of B dim 7: B dim7 C maj 7
typical use of B mi7b5 aka 1/2 dim: Bmi7b5 Cma7
typical use of B dim7: B dim7 Ami7
typical use of Bmi7b5: Bmi7b5 Ami7
typical use of B dim 7: B dim7 F#mi7
fairly typical use of B 1/2 dim: Bmi7b5 C#7 F#mi7
typical use of Bdim7: B dim7 Ebmaj7
not so typical use of Bmi7b5: Bmi7b5 Bb7 Ebmaj7 or Bmi7b5 Cmi7 Ebma7.
Looks similar enough to justify historical development of calling it 1/2
diminished. Also, it has a diminished triad as 1b3b5.
Of course, Using it as Dmi6 seems more arguably a different function than B
dim, but still purty close. Certainly not NONSENSICAL:)
Ethan Young
Assimilate THIS, beee-atch.
later,
Ethan
"Albert Silverman" <slv...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9ivbcv$cj3$2...@news.panix.com...
Ethan Young
very busy practicing, but thanks for the new load. I mean, what if I run
out of things to practice and think about within the next 5 years???!!!
Hey, one of those is a tritone sub...does that mean those chords could be
considered substututions for a progression that was in the key of
Emajor/Eminor? (Ab7 is tritone for B7, which is in the key of E).
Later,
Ethan
PS Sorry that we're still talking about theory...I truly am. To prove my
sincerity, here's your gear injection: Jazz box: DeArmond, sale, money,
X-155, Starfire, D'Angelico, Manhattan, New York, more money, nice tone,
expensive, wish I had the money, Gibson, Howard Roberts Fusion, L-5, ES-xxx,
what picks do you use? I like D'addario strings myself.
There, that should tide you over for a bit.
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b544c07$1...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
Joey Goldstein
Ethan Young wrote:
>
> Yikes.....just when I though I had a handle on things...I'm already very
> very busy practicing, but thanks for the new load. I mean, what if I run
> out of things to practice and think about within the next 5 years???!!!
>
> Hey, one of those is a tritone sub...does that mean those chords could be
> considered substututions for a progression that was in the key of
> Emajor/Eminor? (Ab7 is tritone for B7, which is in the key of E).
The tritone sub for B7 is F7.
--
Ethan Young
and completely abused it....serves me right for posting at 12 am...
Later,
Ethan
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
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