Why are some many great jazz guitarists Italian-American?
Kevin & Karen Coffey
Why are some many great jazz guitarists Italian-American?
Is it that the guitar is so much a part of the Italian-American heritage?
I'd start listing them all, but it would take forever.
Rick Ross
"Kevin & Karen Coffey" <kco...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:630BDAA3.3E10%kco...@adelphia.net...
Bob Russell
My theory on this, at least as far as the older Italian-American players go,
is that the "old country" way of educating musicians involved lots of ear
training. According to what I've read, some teachers insisted on a year of
solfeggio before the kid even got to touch an instrument. The students
started out hearing and internalizing music before they tried to make it
come out of an instrument. While I'm not totally convinced that's the way to
go, I can certainly see some possible advantages there.
There was a discussion on this here some time ago; you might check Google. I
guess I'd have to point out that there are also a lot of great
African-American jazz guitarists and Jewish jazz guitarists, etc. It's not
like Italian-Americans have a corner on the market. But there certainly have
been some great Italian-American players, no question.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.uncwil.edu/people/russellr
Dan Cooper
seems to me that in Europe, much more than in the US, it's not considered
disgraceful to be an artist.
Dan
"Kevin & Karen Coffey" <kco...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:630BDAA3.3E10%kco...@adelphia.net...
James Kidwell
were western music's theoretical visionaries.
A strong knowledge of theory and technique has been a part of their
culture for centuries...I don't know what happened to Conti.... JK
Kevin & Karen Coffey wrote:
>
Joe Finn
news:630BDAA3.3E10%kco...@adelphia.net...
First of all since February is Black History Month I should say that it
would be totally impossible to discuss the development of jazz [much less
the development of jazz guitar] without properly acknowledging the
contributions and the many brilliant guitar innovations of Charlie
Christian, George Benson, Kenny Burrell, Danny Barker, Russell Malone,
Henry Johnson, Derek Bailey, Slim Gaillard, Blood Ulmer, Lonnie Johnson,
Freddie Green, Wes Montgomery, Everett Barksdale, Grant Green, Tiny Grimes,
Phil Upchurch, Stanley Jordan, Sonny Sharrock, Earl Klugh, Eric Gale, John
Collins, Mark Whitfield, Kevin Eubanks, Guitar Slim, Oscar Moore, Irving
Ashby and Ted Dunbar. Their story is the history of jazz itself told on six
strings. The contributions of musicians of African ancestry are at the very
heart of the style. They are the bedrock upon which the music rests.
Secondly since I'm half Italian I should also say that a great many jazz
musicians [guitarists in particular] are of Italian descent including Joe
Pass, Bucky Pizzarelli, Jimmy Bruno, Frank Vignola, Tony Mottola, Chuck
D'Aloia, Tony Gottuso, Jack Fragomeni, John Pisano, Al Viola, George
Muscatello, Al Ciola, Pat Practico, Tony Purrone, Dom Minasi, Robert Conti,
Gene Bertoncini, John Pizzarelli, Tony Rizzi, Dennis Sandole, Tommy Tedesco,
Ray Biondi, John Carlini, Mike Musillami, Joe D'Orio, Joe Puma, Bill
DeArango, Carmen Mastren, Lawrence Marrero, Sal Salvador, Frank Gambale and
Pat Martino. The Italian tradition of lutherie is also well known.
D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, Benedetto, Buscariono and Campelone are well known
makers of guitars in the tradition of their ancestors.
My theory is that there is a well established musical tradition in Italy
that goes back centuries. The legacy of the great composers of the Italian
tradition was not lost on 20th century immigrants to America. My grandfather
came to this country ahead of his wife and children. He brought with him
very little; only a trunk, a mandolin and a guitar. He loved to sing and
play old folk tunes and opera melodies. Guitar and mandolin were important
instruments in the folk tradition so it is not surprising to me that so many
guitarists of Italian ancestry have emerged. Just about everyone on that
side of my family is at least somewhat musically inclined. Many play guitar
but wind instruments and piano are also popular. They all sing. This
tradition is cultural and it tends to connect a generation to it's
predecessors in a certain way that reinforces the value that the group
places upon music. The attitude towards those who pursue music is very
supportive and unreservedly positive.
In researching the Jazz Guitar Almanac I came up with lots of names and
birthdays of different guitar players. The two biggest groups from the
standpoint of ethnicity are African American and Italian American. The idea
of creating these birthday lists was not as my wife suggests to satisfy my
compulsive and obsessive way of approaching things but to put the names of
these guys on the internet in the hope that some further recognition and
greater appreciation of their work might eventually occur.
..........joe
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Tom Walls
says...
> Let's hear the theories:
>
> Why are some many great jazz guitarists Italian-American?
>
> Is it that the guitar is so much a part of the Italian-American heritage?
>
IMHO, yes. Also because there has been a long history of
Italian/American participation since the onset of jazz, which followed
various musical traditions in Italian culture. In my experience I've
seen very heavy involvement in jazz by Italian/Americans all over the US.
It's particularly true in this part of the country, upstate NY. I would
love to see more historical investigation on the Italian/American jazz
connection. Richard Sudhalter touches on this topic in his fine book
"Lost Chords", but this is a rich subject for further exploration.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Dean Elwood
Tzar Zultan (see earlier thread on shredding lessons).....
"Niggers and faggots need not apply."
D
"Joe Finn" <J...@joefinn.net> wrote in message
news:3c6ca...@corp.newsgroups.com...
thomas
> would be totally impossible to discuss the development of jazz [much less
> the development of jazz guitar] without properly acknowledging the
> contributions and the many brilliant guitar innovations of Charlie
> Christian, George Benson, Kenny Burrell, Danny Barker, Russell Malone,
> Henry Johnson, Derek Bailey, Slim Gaillard, Blood Ulmer, Lonnie Johnson,
> Freddie Green, Wes Montgomery, Everett Barksdale, Grant Green, Tiny Grimes,
> Phil Upchurch, Stanley Jordan, Sonny Sharrock, Earl Klugh, Eric Gale, John
> Collins, Mark Whitfield, Kevin Eubanks, Guitar Slim, Oscar Moore, Irving
> Ashby and Ted Dunbar. Their story is the history of jazz itself told on six
> strings. The contributions of musicians of African ancestry are at the very
> heart of the style. They are the bedrock upon which the music rests.
I think you overstate the case above, and I say that without
taking anything away from the contributions of any of those
guys. The jazz guitar tradition was originally developed primarily
by white musicians--Eddie Lang, George Van Eps, Allan Reuss,
Dick McDonough, George Smith, Carl Kress, etc. That was the first
wave of jazz guitar, played on the acoustic archtop with a plectrum,
and all of the known masters of that tradition were white musicians.
I'm sure there were some black guys wailing in that bag too, but
they were not recorded and are thus not part of the historical tradition.
Also, some of the guys you named above are good players but
not even in the ballpark of being brilliant innovators. Russell
Malone? Mark Whitfield? Slim Gaillard? Irving Ashby? Fine musicians
all, but not even close to being brilliant innovators. (Gaillard
was an innovator as a lyricist, but a mediocre guitarist.)
I'm opposed to a racial analysis of individual musicians, because
great musicianship is an individual accomplishment, not a racial
accomplishment. I think race is an utterly meaningless variable
when it comes to explaining musicianship.
The prevalence of musicians of a certain race or ethnicity can be
explained by sociological variables. Black dominance in jazz is
explained by Jim Crow segregation that prevented black accomplishment
in other realms, thereby funneling so much black talent into the popular
music world that was jazz.
I think that the prevalence of Italian-Americans is a similar result.
Music is one of the careers that people in disadvantaged classes can
pursue to wealth and fame, and Italians in the U.S. tended to be of
lower social classes in the first part of the 20th century.
The dominance of white guitarists in the first wave of jazz guitar
can also be explained by segregation. This was a style that emerged
and thrived among the recording studio players, who were all white
due to Jim Crow.
Mark Kleinhaut
tomb...@jhu.edu (thomas) wrote:
(snip)
>I'm opposed to a racial analysis of individual musicians, because
>great musicianship is an individual accomplishment, not a racial
>accomplishment. I think race is an utterly meaningless variable
>when it comes to explaining musicianship.
>
Tom, this is the best thing anyone has had to say on this thread. All that
other stuff....fahgettaboutit:)
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales": www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
Joe Finn
news:7d424f23.02021...@posting.google.com...
> "Joe Finn" <J...@joefinn.net> wrote in message
news:<3c6ca...@corp.newsgroups.com>...
> >
> > First of all since February is Black History Month I should say that it
> > would be totally impossible to discuss the development of jazz [much
less
> > the development of jazz guitar] without properly acknowledging the
> > contributions and the many brilliant guitar innovations of Charlie
> > Christian, George Benson, Kenny Burrell, Danny Barker, Russell Malone,
> > Henry Johnson, Derek Bailey, Slim Gaillard, Blood Ulmer, Lonnie Johnson,
> > Freddie Green, Wes Montgomery, Everett Barksdale, Grant Green, Tiny
Grimes,
> > Phil Upchurch, Stanley Jordan, Sonny Sharrock, Earl Klugh, Eric Gale,
John
> > Collins, Mark Whitfield, Kevin Eubanks, Guitar Slim, Oscar Moore, Irving
> > Ashby and Ted Dunbar. Their story is the history of jazz itself told on
six
> > strings. The contributions of musicians of African ancestry are at the
very
> > heart of the style. They are the bedrock upon which the music rests.
>
>
Thomas, thank you for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful
response.
> I think you overstate the case above, and I say that without
> taking anything away from the contributions of any of those
> guys. The jazz guitar tradition was originally developed primarily
> by white musicians--Eddie Lang, George Van Eps, Allan Reuss,
> Dick McDonough, George Smith, Carl Kress, etc. That was the first
> wave of jazz guitar, played on the acoustic archtop with a plectrum,
> and all of the known masters of that tradition were white musicians.
> I'm sure there were some black guys wailing in that bag too, but
> they were not recorded and are thus not part of the historical tradition.
>
Point taken. I just don't think anyone can begin to understand the history
of American music without a discussion of the contributions that blacks have
made to the style.
> Also, some of the guys you named above are good players but
> not even in the ballpark of being brilliant innovators. Russell
> Malone? Mark Whitfield? Slim Gaillard? Irving Ashby? Fine musicians
> all, but not even close to being brilliant innovators. (Gaillard
> was an innovator as a lyricist, but a mediocre guitarist.)
No, not everyone on the list was a "brilliant innovator". I didn't say that
as well as I might have. Gaillard's contribution was not so much as a
guitarist but as a jive comic. His silliness in vout lyrics was a noteworthy
facet of the jazz tapestry. As with the rest of the names on the list I
encourage people to revisit their work and to decide for themselves what is
worthwhile and what isn't.
> I'm opposed to a racial analysis of individual musicians, because
> great musicianship is an individual accomplishment, not a racial
> accomplishment. I think race is an utterly meaningless variable
> when it comes to explaining musicianship.
>
> The prevalence of musicians of a certain race or ethnicity can be
> explained by sociological variables. Black dominance in jazz is
> explained by Jim Crow segregation that prevented black accomplishment
> in other realms, thereby funneling so much black talent into the popular
> music world that was jazz.
>
I'm happy to leave the sociological analysis to someone with your background
and capabilities. That action is way over my head.
> I think that the prevalence of Italian-Americans is a similar result.
> Music is one of the careers that people in disadvantaged classes can
> pursue to wealth and fame, and Italians in the U.S. tended to be of
> lower social classes in the first part of the 20th century.
>
This is true. My Italian ancestors came here because they were poor and
starving. Legend has it that that some were fleeing to avoid criminal
prosecution. Others were said to be on the wrong side of various political
situations in the decades subsequent to the reunification.
> The dominance of white guitarists in the first wave of jazz guitar
> can also be explained by segregation. This was a style that emerged
> and thrived among the recording studio players, who were all white
> due to Jim Crow.
Again, thanks for the response. Let me reiterate though that my reason for
keeping lists like this is not explore sociology, segregation, or even the
individual merits of any one individual. I just like to keep the names of
these guys in circulation out of respect, admiration and the hope that
someone may seek out and listen to their music. .....joe
Stan Gosnell
news:7d424f23.02021...@posting.google.com:
> I think you overstate the case above, and I say that without
> taking anything away from the contributions of any of those
> guys. The jazz guitar tradition was originally developed primarily
> by white musicians--Eddie Lang, George Van Eps, Allan Reuss,
> Dick McDonough, George Smith, Carl Kress, etc.
I have to jump in here & say that Charlie Christian was the greatest
innovator in jazz guitar, he started it all. When he was playing,
*everybody* was trying to sound like him. Everybody learned his solos
note-for-note, even those who played other instruments. I've read many
interviews in which very well-known players say pretty much this, even
Italian-Americans like Bucky Pizzarelli. Certainly the electric guitar was
bound to become more prominent, but the early innovators were mostly black
- Christian, Barnes, et al. I agree their race is irrelevant - their music
is what was important, but IMHO they can't be denigrated, as if they never
existed or influenced anyone.
--
Regards,
Stan
Bob Russell
> I have to jump in here & say that Charlie Christian was the greatest
> innovator in jazz guitar, he started it all. When he was playing,
> *everybody* was trying to sound like him. Everybody learned his solos
> note-for-note, even those who played other instruments. I've read many
> interviews in which very well-known players say pretty much this, even
> Italian-Americans like Bucky Pizzarelli. Certainly the electric guitar was
> bound to become more prominent, but the early innovators were mostly black
> - Christian, Barnes, et al. I agree their race is irrelevant - their music
> is what was important, but IMHO they can't be denigrated, as if they never
> existed or influenced anyone.
I think your point is well taken. IIRC, the original poster didn't say
anything about "innovators"; he just said that there have been a lot of
highly regarded Italian-American players. I can't disagree with that; there
have been many fine Italian-American guitarists in jazz. There've also been
many fine African-American players, and I think Charlie Christian should get
the credit for paving the way for modern jazz guitarists, although I'm not
sure I'd even call him an "innovator"; Lester Young was doing that stuff on
his horn before Charlie. (By the way, George Barnes wasn't black.)
When you get right down to it, have there been any true innovators in jazz
who played guitar? Musicians who truly changed the direction of the music as
Armstrong, Parker and Coltrane did? I can't think of one...
Stan Gosnell
news:B8930AEC.14AC8%bobrus...@hotmail.com:
> When you get right down to it, have there been any true innovators in
> jazz who played guitar? Musicians who truly changed the direction of
> the music as Armstrong, Parker and Coltrane did? I can't think of
> one...
You may be right, but after Christian & his followers, & then their
followers, the guitar came to pretty much rule music. There are lots more
guitar players than anything else, maybe everything else combined, & it's
been that way for years. I'm not sure I'd insist that Christian was wholly
responsible, but he was at least partly responsible. If the rather sudden
dominance of an instrument didn't influence music, what did?
Note, I said music, not just or even necessarily jazz.
--
Regards,
Stan
Bob Russell
In music as a whole, I think you've got a case, although I don't think the
guitar is as dominant a force now as it was 25 years ago. The electric
guitar definitely changed the larger musical landscape for many years. And
when I think of people I'd consider true innovators on the guitar (that is,
people who found new sounds and new approaches to the instrument), I often
find myself venturing outside the jazz circle.
I don't think that "innovation" should be the only or even the prime
criterion by which we evaluate a musician's contributions. Charlie Christian
may not have been the first person to play lines like that, but he was
definitely the first electric guitarist anyone knew about who was doing it,
and, as you said, he was certainly the reason a whole lot of other players
started doing it!
Fransisco
> In music as a whole, I think you've got a case, although I don't think the
> guitar is as dominant a force now as it was 25 years ago.
> http://www.uncwil.edu/people/russellr
Have to agree with that one. The guitar seems to have diminished in
popularity in pop music since the early to mid '90's at least,
probably even earlier than that as stated.
With Rap and dance based music becoming the popular music of the
present time, the guitar itself seems to be declining in popularity.
I suppose this is off topic, but I wonder if this is a good or bad
trend?
Less competition, I don't think so. Fewer guitar students, probably?
Guess I'll have to wait until the baby boomers die off for the
competition to dwindle:-)
Vincent
> great musicianship is an individual accomplishment, not a racial
> accomplishment. I think race is an utterly meaningless variable
> when it comes to explaining musicianship.
While I don't disagree with your statement that "race is an utterly
meaningless variable when it comes to explaining musicianship", there is an
ethnic, racial component to the development of jazz music. That is, you can
not deny the impact of African influences on the development of gospel,
blues and jazz. Due to segregation, many African Americans musicians "cut
their teeth" in this tradition and it had a tremendous impact on how they
played the music that we call jazz. As musicians of all races began to play
together, of course, these influences spread across racial lines.
If I might borrow a few lines from "The Story of Jazz" by Marshall W.
Stearns. In discussing the influence of African rhythms, he states:
"Jazz is traditionally approximated in notation as 4/4 or duple meter -
actually it's more complex - and this march rhythm is basic. You can hear it
plainly in the music of a New Orleans brass band, but something new has been
added - the music swings. And it is apparent that this new ingredient didn't
come from Europe," page 4
This comes from a section where Stearns is discussing the complexity of the
music and poly-rhythmic tradition of West African music. He goes on to say,
" So something of this engaging rhythm that identifies a lot of jazz for us
came from West Africa. It's a survival - diluted, to be sure. There's
nothing quite like it in Europe, the source of the rest of our music."
The other component to Jazz that Stearns identifies as having it's roots in
Africa is the "blue note". He wrote:
"With the addition of a few blue notes, the entire harmony becomes blue, and
blue tonality results. It occurs in almost all American Negro music, vocal
and instrumental, and especially in jazz. It can be heard in the
field-holler and the work song, the spiritual and gospel, minstrelry and
ragtime....Where does this blue tonality come from? It can't be found in
Europe. Something very much like it occurs in West Africa...."
So, while I agree that a man of any race - be it Italian or whatever - can
learn to play jazz and play it well as indicated by the lists of musicians
produced by Joe Finn. Jazz, dependent on it's rhythms and on the blues, was
born out of an African tradition with a twist.
To be clear, I agree that race is a meaningless variable in terms of who can
play jazz, but race/ethnicity is not a meaningless variable when we discuss
the roots of jazz.
Kevin & Karen Coffey
acknowledment and respect for the African-American tradition of jazz music
and jazz guitar innovation. I always start from the premise that jazz is
first and foremost music that expresses the genius of African-Americans and
when those of European descent have learned and made innovations, it is
always of secondary importance. Armstrong, Duke, Monk, and Mingus, and maybe
maybe Miles: for me, that's the premier list of jazz innovation. No offense
intended. I still have yet to hear all the early jazz guitarists, though I
am making progress.
Kevin Coffey
Bob Russell
> To be clear, I agree that race is a meaningless variable in terms of who can
> play jazz, but race/ethnicity is not a meaningless variable when we discuss
> the roots of jazz.
It's not meaningless at all! I think the fact that we all need each other is
clearly demonstrated in the history of jazz. There wouldn't be jazz without
Africans, but on the other hand, jazz didn't start in Africa. It started in
America, and it took the confluence of African, European, Latin and
Caribbean cultures to give birth to jazz. Take away any one of those
elements from the development and you'd have something that might have been
good, but wouldn't have been jazz.
Vincent
is
> clearly demonstrated in the history of jazz. There wouldn't be jazz
without
> Africans, but on the other hand, jazz didn't start in Africa. It started
in
> America, and it took the confluence of African, European, Latin and
> Caribbean cultures to give birth to jazz. Take away any one of those
> elements from the development and you'd have something that might have
been
> good, but wouldn't have been jazz.
I agree.
I guess I veered slightly off point in some respects.
Just focusing on the initial question, it was my impression that there
was/is a "guitar tradition" that seems to have developed over time in the
Italian coomunity that includes a respect and reverence for the instrument.
That is, I would bet that each of the Italian guitarists listed by Joe Finn
had significant and repetitive exposure to guitar playing in a warm, and
freindly setting, that led to their interest and nurtured their development.
Jimmy Bruno has often made reference to what he learned from his Dad.
This is just my own unscientific, pseudo-psycho analysis of the issue.
Vince
Bob Russell
> The guitar seems to have diminished in
> popularity in pop music since the early to mid '90's at least,
> probably even earlier than that as stated.
>
> With Rap and dance based music becoming the popular music of the
> present time, the guitar itself seems to be declining in popularity.
>
> I suppose this is off topic, but I wonder if this is a good or bad
> trend?
I think it's just inevitable. The guitar held sway over pop music for a long
time. The nature of pop music is that sounds go in and out of fashion; it
follows that guitar might be due for an "unfashionable" spell. Right now,
the computer seems to be the instrument of choice!
It's also true that in pop music, what goes around comes around; I've seen
the guitar go through up and down cycles between the '60s and the present
day. For example, in the '80s, people got all excited about MIDI and some
were proclaiming that guitar was finished. Then they found out that it
wasn't all that easy to program good sounding MIDI music; once the novelty
wore off, we started hearing guitars again. MIDI stayed with us as a
production tool, of course, but the idea of featuring it in a production
became less popular. Now it's all about loops and samples; I have a feeling
the same thing's going to happen. The computer is a very cool production
tool; I wouldn't want to give mine up and I think it'll remain important
from now on, but I think that people will always want to hear instruments
being played by skilled humans. Now let's compare notes in a hundred years
and see if I'm right! :)
As far as jazz goes, the guitar's always been the red-headed stepchild of
jazz, so I don't worry too much about trends there!
[DISCLAIMER: In observance of the recent rash of humorlessness in rmmgj, I
hereby apologize in advance to any of you out there who actually ARE
red-headed stepchildren. It's just a frickin' figure of speech, OK?]
Thom j.
JuJu Voodoo
> Bob Russell <bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<B89345F1.14AE3%bobrus...@hotmail.com>...
> > In music as a whole, I think you've got a case, although I don't think the
> > guitar is as dominant a force now as it was 25 years ago.
> > -- Bob Russell
> > http://www.uncwil.edu/people/russellr
>
> Have to agree with that one. The guitar seems to have diminished in
> popularity in pop music since the early to mid '90's at least,
> probably even earlier than that as stated.
>
> With Rap and dance based music becoming the popular music of the
> present time, the guitar itself seems to be declining in popularity.
Still alive and kicking in what passes for country music. I don't
really follow who is who; they seem to come and go pretty rapidly
these days. Got a call from a dj some months back. A guy with a record
on the charts wanted to know if I was available as lead picker. I
refuse to wear a cowboy hat (for now).
> I suppose this is off topic, but I wonder if this is a good or bad
> trend?
An acquaintance has a kid who is set on trombone. Father wants him to
play sax. I'm going to turn the kid onto trombonist Will Bradley (Will
Bradley/Ray McKinley boogie woogie orchestra) and Charlie Parker. It
is tempting to throw some guitarists in there.
> Less competition, I don't think so. Fewer guitar students, probably?
>
> Guess I'll have to wait until the baby boomers die off for the
> competition to dwindle:-)
I'm fading away as I speak.
Joe Finn
> Have to agree with that one. The guitar seems to have diminished in
> popularity in pop music since the early to mid '90's at least,
> probably even earlier than that as stated.
>
> With Rap and dance based music becoming the popular music of the
> present time, the guitar itself seems to be declining in popularity.
>
> I suppose this is off topic, but I wonder if this is a good or bad
> trend?
>
> Less competition, I don't think so. Fewer guitar students, probably?
>
> Guess I'll have to wait until the baby boomers die off for the
> competition to dwindle:-)
I looked up a couple numbers with regard to guitar sales. My gut feeling
about the popularity of the guitar was that it might by on the wane. However
the closets of the world are evidently full of late model guitars.
In 1992 681,762 guitars were sold at an average price of $571 each. In By
2000 the total had risen to 1,648,595 units at $560 each. These figures are
for the U.S. market only and are published by
http://www.musictrades.com/census.html
They also have the numbers broken down in other ways. I know that this does
not say anything about trends regarding the use of guitars within the
recording industry but sales seem to be developing nicely. ....joe
--
sgcim
They flunked out of barber school?:)
thomas
> tomb...@jhu.edu (thomas) wrote in
> news:7d424f23.02021...@posting.google.com:
>
> > I think you overstate the case above, and I say that without
> > taking anything away from the contributions of any of those
> > guys. The jazz guitar tradition was originally developed primarily
> > by white musicians--Eddie Lang, George Van Eps, Allan Reuss,
> > Dick McDonough, George Smith, Carl Kress, etc.
>
> I have to jump in here & say that Charlie Christian was the greatest
> innovator in jazz guitar, he started it all.
All the guys I mentioned above predate CC. Black players that predate
CC would include Teddy Bunn--who was awesome--Lonnie Johnson, and
Eddie Durham.
> When he was playing,
> *everybody* was trying to sound like him.
My sense is that CC was the foremost practitioner of a style that
was already in the air. Slim Gaillard, Eddie Durham, Tiny Grimes,
and others of that era played very much in the same style, only
without the power and charisma that CC brought to it. Check out
the guitarists in some of the early 30s Western Swing bands to
hear pre-CC inklings of this style. I think CC's contribution
was less innovation, and more sheer personality, chops, and
musicianship. To the extent he was an innovator, it was in his
awesome sense of syncopation and rhythmic drive. His followers
copped licks from him but no one was able to cop his drive.
> Everybody learned his solos
> note-for-note, even those who played other instruments. I've read many
> interviews in which very well-known players say pretty much this, even
> Italian-Americans like Bucky Pizzarelli. Certainly the electric guitar was
> bound to become more prominent, but the early innovators were mostly black
> - Christian, Barnes, et al.
George Barnes was a white guy. So were Django Reinhardt, Les
Paul, and the other pre-CC players I mentioned above. It is
incorrect to say that the early jazz guitar influences were
mostly black. Bring in the early Western Swing guys and you
have an overwhelmingly white influence on pre-CC jazz guitar,
with a handful of exceptions such as Johnson, Bunn, etc.
> I agree their race is irrelevant - their music
> is what was important, but IMHO they can't be denigrated, as if they never
> existed or influenced anyone.
I don't anyone has even come close to that position.
Dan Cooper
about him.
Dan
"thomas" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:7d424f23.02021...@posting.google.com...
CRIPE733
music through solfeggio. Before they ever touched an instrument, they knew
music. This is not soley an "Italian approach," but figures into the culture's
approach to music.
Stan Gosnell
> All the guys I mentioned above predate CC. Black players that predate
> CC would include Teddy Bunn--who was awesome--Lonnie Johnson, and
> Eddie Durham.
Yes, but they weren't playing many modern lines. They played primarily
acoustic guitar, & didn't sound much like modern players.
>> When he was playing, *everybody* was trying to sound like him.
>
> My sense is that CC was the foremost practitioner of a style that
> was already in the air. Slim Gaillard, Eddie Durham, Tiny Grimes,
> and others of that era played very much in the same style, only
> without the power and charisma that CC brought to it. Check out
> the guitarists in some of the early 30s Western Swing bands to
> hear pre-CC inklings of this style.
I've listened to almost all of that style. And interviews with the players
all point to his influence. His music wasn't that different from other
jazz musicians, but he did it on guitar, which was new. There's a definite
difference in the sound of western swing bands before & after Christian
arrived on the scene. Regardless of the exact reason, he had a huge
influence on every string player - including mandolin & tenor. I even
think I hear some of his influence in some fiddle players, like Joe Holley.
>> Everybody learned his solos
>> note-for-note, even those who played other instruments. I've read
>> many interviews in which very well-known players say pretty much this,
>> even Italian-Americans like Bucky Pizzarelli. Certainly the electric
>> guitar was bound to become more prominent, but the early innovators
>> were mostly black - Christian, Barnes, et al.
>
> George Barnes was a white guy.
Yeah, I got in a hurry typing there......
> So were Django Reinhardt, Les
> Paul, and the other pre-CC players I mentioned above. It is
> incorrect to say that the early jazz guitar influences were
> mostly black. Bring in the early Western Swing guys and you
> have an overwhelmingly white influence on pre-CC jazz guitar,
> with a handful of exceptions such as Johnson, Bunn, etc.
Perhaps, but IMHO it's just as incorrect to say they're mostly Italian-
American.
--
Regards,
Stan