Are 1941 Gibson L-50's any good?
Mark W. Smart
I'm thinking about buying one of these I saw for sale to use as a big-band
guitar. I'll probably put a DeArmond pickup on it for solos. The price is
$625 which I thought was REALLY good for a carved top archtop. Basically
what I want to know is if these have a good, relatively loud acoustic
tone. I've seen a picture of a wartime L-50 in the book "American
Guitars", and it looks usable. I'm hoping that snob appeal is one
of the major reasons that this guitar costs so much less than
something like an L5. Thanks in advance.
--
Mark Smart
Mark W. Smart
Oh yeah, another thing I'm wondering about is the neck. I prefer
slimmer necks on guitars, and to me the ideal neck is the one on my
Ibanez Les Paul copy from the seventies. It is modeled after the "1960
Slim Taper" necks found today on ES335's and Les Paul Classics.
A few years ago I played an old Gibson which was either an L-50 or
something which looked just like it (dot inlays, very simple decorations,
no cutaway), and I was totally amazed at the fact that it had a slim neck
on it just like my Paul copy. I thought all old Gibsons had big fat necks.
I have no idea what year that guitar was made.
Anyway, if anyone has information about which models and years of Gibsons had
these slim necks, it would be appreciated (if there is even a consistent
pattern).
The reason I'm asking about all this stuff is that I'm in Champaign,
Illinois, and the guitar is in St. Louis. Before I drive all the way down
there to play it I would like to be pretty sure it's what I want. The
guy's ad says it is in very good condition.
--
Mark Smart
Ted Butterman
Stay away from any of the L-50s. The sound is nowhere comparable to L-5s
or even the L-7s. I appreciate your wanting to have a nice archtop guitar
but don't let price be the deciding factor. Save up a little longer and
try to find an L-7 or something on that order. You'll be forever thankful
you waited.
SStone8807
>you waited.
Hello,
I think Ted is being a bit harsh. L-50s are small-body 16" archtops
comparible to Epiphone Zeniths. They have a nice punchy-gutty sound that
works nicely for some music. They are not as full-bodied or loud as a 17"
or 18" archtop, but they do have a balanced sound. Some L-50 have
delightful necks. I had a late 40's one that had a neck very much like a
good vintage les paul - low action, no buzz, nice shape.
While L-50s are not L-5 or L-7 substitutes, they are nice little guitars
in their own right. For $500 to $700 they are hard to beat.
bye,
Steven Stone
Contributing Editor
Stereophile Magazine
Stereophile Magazine's Guide to Home Theater
r...@sfdbs.com
In article <19970320171...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
sston...@aol.com (SStone8807) wrote:
> Ted Butterman Wrote:
>>Stay away from any of the L-50s.
>
Then Steven Stone sez:
>
> I think Ted is being a bit harsh. L-50s are small-body 16" archtops
> comparible to Epiphone Zeniths.
>
> While L-50s are not L-5 or L-7 substitutes, they are nice little guitars
> in their own right. For $500 to $700 they are hard to beat.
>
Ted's a little harsh, Steve's a little wrong. An Epiphone Zenith is a
solid spruce, carved top guitar. The L-50 is laminate (plywood). Gibson's
high-end instruments are superb, but the quality falls off very fast as
you move down the pricelist. Epiphones on the other hand were
quality-crafted instruments at every price level. The Zenith is right
below the Triumph and the Triumph is comparable to an L-7; the
L-50 is comparable to a Harmony.
Rob
Brian Miller
r...@sfdbs.com wrote:
>
> Ted's a little harsh, Steve's a little wrong. An Epiphone Zenith is a
> solid spruce, carved top guitar. The L-50 is laminate (plywood). Gibson's
> high-end instruments are superb, but the quality falls off very fast as
> you move down the pricelist. Epiphones on the other hand were
> quality-crafted instruments at every price level. The Zenith is right
> below the Triumph and the Triumph is comparable to an L-7; the
> L-50 is comparable to a Harmony.
>
> Rob
Hi Rob!
I admit that what I don't know about Epiphone archtops could fill a
catalog, but I haven't heard of a Zenith. I have heard of a Zephyr;
owned one for about 3 hours until my luthier friend / mentor told me it
was plywood and scolded me for not spotting a slight twist in the neck.
Beautiful guitar with the floral headstock inlay and a nice punchy
electric sound with the DeArmonds(?) on it.
And oooh Mark, you wrote:
> I'm hoping that snob appeal is one of the major reasons that this guitar costs
> so much less than something like an L5.
I shopped and saved and saved and shopped, and several years later, I
finally found a '68 L-5CES for $950, in beautiful shape, in 1979. Even
with the pickups in the top, it has a good acoustic tone; it actually
sings with a ringing sustain. IMHO, I dont hear plywood tops (or 70's
L-5CESs and several other solid spruce carved archtops I've played, for
that matter) do that. My L-5's neck is like the Les Paul Custom. The
electric tone is a stunning classic. For some reason, with the neck
pickup volume backed way down, (bridge pickup off... I dont use it much)
the amp volume up, and a reasonably new set of strings (D'Addario Jazz
Lights.. wound 3rd), it gets a tone amazingly like what Jim Hall got
from a mic'd acoustic New Yorker on Bermuda Bye-Bye from the (1976)
Commitment recording. I am very blessed.
There's a shop in Tacoma WA; Guitar Maniacs that specializes in vintage
gear.
They have a '47 Epihone Triumph, non cutaway for $1100.00. It SINGS!
It's been there for about 3 months. I'll bet he might take $950-$1000
for it. They have a 40's Kay Prince; a gorgeous looking & sounding 18"
instrument with nice inlay work for around $900.
Another to consider: Gibson L7. It's essentially a less ornate L-5.
Good ones sound stunning. In fact, I found a lovely non-cutaway L-7
with what I recall was the best acoustic tone I've ever heard, but
didn't have the money at the time. These are mostly non-cutaway
instruments without pickups. Spend another $200 on a Benadetto or
Bartolini pickup, or a Fishman archtop transducer rig, and you can have
a KILLER electric sound.
NO CUTAWAY?!! you say? I use my L-5 for big band jazz often and rarely
get up into the cutaway. I feel strongly that if you SHOP FOR ACOUSTIC
TONE, YOU CANNOT GO WRONG!
Also, Heritage makes some nice looking instruments. Haven't played
any. I was kind of shocked to read In an Elderly Catalog that a voiced
top is a $200 option on some of the lower priced models. But they dont
seem to command the resale value that Gibsons and old Epiphones do.
There may be a real bargain out there.
Mark, Best(!) of luck to you. You know, I'd really like to hear from
you when you pick up your box. Put my name in your address book and
keep me informed.
--
||
In His Grace, ======
||
Brian Miller ||
||
To reply, remove the x in my address.
It's there to cut down on SPAM
Catsswing
> The L-50 is laminate (plywood). Gibson's
>high-end instruments are superb, but the quality falls off very fast as
>you move down the pricelist.
I wish someone would clear this whole matter up once and
for all. When people refer to say, a Gibson ES-175 as being
made of' "Plywood," what exactly are they saying?
Gibson literature will refer to this guitar as being made
from a, "Maple laminate." Of course this is not the kind
of plywood you get from the local lumber mill...
R. Ross
one in the same..plywood is made from layers of wood laminated to one
another...the type of wood can be maple or whatever..but laminated is
just that..plywood..or laminated could also mean your relationship to
the steering wheel of your car after having too many beers at a gig..
in contradistinction to laminated is the carved top..which is made from
one piece of wood and carved to maximize the acoustical properties
when the strings vibrate after being plucked..carved could also mean
what will happen to you when your wife finds out about all those other
guitars you bought that were hidden in the closet downstairs...
In <19970322142...@ladder01.news.aol.com> cats...@aol.com
SStone8807
Hello,
Sorry about the Epiphone Zenith comparison mistake ....so many names, so
little specs.
But have to disagree about the L-50. It has a SOLID spruce top and
laminated back and sides! At least my 1949 version did.
Yes, ES-175 are laminates on top and back and sides. And yes laminate
means muliple plys of wood - i.e. plywood. But all plywoods are not the
same, and some of the plys I've seen are remarkably good.
Plywood tops are less flexible than an equally thick piece of solid wood
because their cross-laminated construction gives them more rigidity. If
they are more rigid they should vibrate less - hense less acoustic sound.
This is BAD right? But wait, aren't the back and sides of guitars supposed
to be rigid to reflect as much sound as possible back up to the top? Maybe
yes, maybe no. I make a living reviewing loudspeakers - there are TWO
schools of thought on speaker cabinets that parrallel guitars. The first
is to make cabinets very rigid to take them out of the equation sonically,
the other is to TUNE the cabinets to smooth out the driver response. On
speakers both solutions can be very effective. I think guitars are the
same way. I've got a little Guild M-20 with very thin back and sides that
vibrate like mad. This little box "blooms" like nobodies business! I also
used to have a Japaneese Epiphone acoustic that had laminated mahogany
back and sides with a solid mahogany top. The back and sides were mucho
rigid. It sounded very much like a mid 70's Martin (the overbraced ones).
It had no bloom, but had a wonderful blend and balance.
So what is the point of this? I feel that laminate-body electric guitars
make sense if the primary purpose is for amplification. The more rigid
body has less tendency to go into feedback howls- perhaps thats why the
ES-175 is such a popular guitar for actual gigs. If a guitar's primary use
is acoustic, then laminate tops are not advantageous - they don't resonate
as much.
BUT, big but, I own an ES-175 that sounds great acoustically - not loud -
but very sweet with good balance. I also have a Gretch Country gent - late
one - that also sounds very nice acoustically - they are both plywood.
They don't compete with the sound of my 1937 L-5. It is much louder with a
mellower tone. I've also heard some Guilds, Heritages, and Epiphones that
are lovely-sounding acoustically- but not very loud.
Again a lot depends on your intended use.
Lawson Stone
The main difference between laminate and playwood is that if it's a =
Gibson we say it's laminated; if it's an Epiphone, we say it's plywood. =
Who wants to say they spent $2500 for a plywood guitar?
I have also heard that the Gibson laminates are laminated out of good =
tone woods. Don't know why it matters once all the cross-grain patterns =
and gluing gets in there.
For my money and ear, Korean plywood copies of the great "laminated" =
archtops sound about as good as the Gibsons; and I'd take the Heritage =
H575 (provided it had a good neck, caveat emptor!) over the Gibson =
easily.
-- =
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone=8BAsbury Theological Seminary=8BWilmore, KY 40390
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////
"You know, a long time ago, being crazy meant something. Nowadays,
everybody's crazy." Charles Manson
Dave
Lawson Stone wrote:
>
> The main difference between laminate and playwood is that if it's a
>
> I have also heard that the Gibson laminates are laminated out of good
>
> For my money and ear, Korean plywood copies of the great "laminated"
>
> --
> //////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
> Lawson G. Stone帰sbury Theological Seminary妓ilmore, KY 40390
> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////
> "You know, a long time ago, being crazy meant something. Nowadays,
> everybody's crazy." Charles Manson
$1,400 new, it's a incredible buy. The 576 Heritage is a semi
hollowbody, with a laminated top that can be had for under $1,000. I've
only played a couple of dozen Heritages, but I've never run into a bad
neck. They come from the factory feeling like Gibson necks and, just
like a Gibson, if you want the setup low, you may have to dress the
frets. Mine are set up low with very little neck relief.
Dave
Rick Stone
Dave wrote:
>The Heritage 575 has a carved maple top, not laminate. At $1,250 to
>$1,400 new, it's a incredible buy. The 576 Heritage is a semi
>hollowbody, with a laminated top that can be had for under $1,000. I've
>only played a couple of dozen Heritages, but I've never run into a bad
>neck. They come from the factory feeling like Gibson necks and, just
>like a Gibson, if you want the setup low, you may have to dress the
>frets. Mine are set up low with very little neck relief.
My repairman says almost every Heritage he's seen has needed neck work.
On the other hand, I wouldn't let that stop you from buying one. They
are decent instruments and once you have them setup properly (and
probably have the frets dressed) they do play very well. No matter what
kind of guitar you get, I really think the most important thing is to
have a good repairman look at it right away.
/=====================================================\
| Rick Stone | Visit my "Jazz Guitar Homepage"|
| jaz...@inch.com | Lots of links to other guitar |
| | and music related sites! |
| 718/972-1220 | http://www.inch.com/~jazzand |
\=====================================================/
Dave
Well said! I guess that's why some of us pay to read your opinions.
Dave
Lawson G. Stone
Dave wrote:
>
> Lawson Stone wrote:
> >
SNIP
> >
> > For my money and ear, Korean plywood copies of the great "laminated"
> > archtops sound about as good as the Gibsons; and I'd take the Heritage
> > H575 (provided it had a good neck, caveat emptor!) over the Gibson
> > easily.
> >
> > --
> > //////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
> > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////
> > "You know, a long time ago, being crazy meant something. Nowadays,
> > everybody's crazy." Charles Manson
> The Heritage 575 has a carved maple top, not laminate. At $1,250 to
> $1,400 new, it's a incredible buy. The 576 Heritage is a semi
> hollowbody, with a laminated top that can be had for under $1,000. I've
> only played a couple of dozen Heritages, but I've never run into a bad
> neck. They come from the factory feeling like Gibson necks and, just
> like a Gibson, if you want the setup low, you may have to dress the
> frets. Mine are set up low with very little neck relief.
> Dave
Sorry--I knew the 575 has a solid top but just carelessly omitted that.
The necks on Heritages are a different matter. There is a sizable body
of complaint about Hertiage necks not staying true and requiring
planing. I have a Golden Eagle that I have not been able to get the fret
buzzing off of regardless of how carefully it is set up. This is well
known and often does require the high end of the neck to be planed and
refretted. It is typically blamed on the lack of give space under the
part of the fingerboard that is over the body. Any change in the wood
tends to push that part of the fingerboard up and it can't be fixed
except by planing the fingerboard and refretting. Lots of people know
about this and have had to have it done. To their credit, Heritage has,
I think, been willing to do this under warranty but most cases I know of
went with a local luthier to avoid being separated from their instrument
for an unreasonable period of time.
--
|||\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|||////////////////////////||
Lawson G. Stone Asbury Theological Seminary Wilmore, KY
|||///////////////////////|||\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\||
"I was unfashionable before anyone knew who I was."
-Paul Desmond, Jazz Saxophonist
land...@aol.com
SStone8807 wrote:
>
> I feel that laminate-body electric guitars
> make sense if the primary purpose is for amplification. The more rigid
> body has less tendency to go into feedback howls- perhaps thats why the
> ES-175 is such a popular guitar for actual gigs. If a guitar's primary use
> is acoustic, then laminate tops are not advantageous - they don't resonate
> as much.
>
I'll second that opinion. By the way, Jim Hall's D'Aquisto has a
laminated top -- and he gets a great sound!
-- Tom
Tavlah Soh
Most companies are switching to laminate tops because they are cheaper,
stronger, with little noticable change in sound. Yes even Gibson has
begun using laminate.
Randall Zywicki
LITTLE noticeable change in sound? Gibson has BEGUN using laminates?
They have been making laminate top guitars since at least the 50's
(someone help me here - I don't have a Gruhn's handy). As for the
difference in sound, I'm guessing that 90% of the folks frequenting this
group would disagree. Is the sound worse/better than a solid top, now
that we can debate. But it is definitely different, both acoustically
and electrically.
Mezorro
Yes, Randall, I agree 100%, but I will go much further.
Laminated is worse. Worse. Worse. Worse. Much Worse. Fine violins,
celli, pianos, harps, etc. ALL have solid spruce soundboards. It is the
only way to make a fine instrument.
However, a strat, 335, Les Paul, 175, etc. are in a different family,
and do not belong in this discussion. They are strictly electric
instruments, and derive their sound quality from magnetic pickups, with
the AID of the wood, mass, dimensions, etc.
For the sake of fair comparison, compare an acoustic instrument made
with laminated wood, against an acoustic instrument made with solid
wood.
Compare a Hundai and a Porche, while you're at it.
Dean Granros
Catsswing wrote:
>
> > The L-50 is laminate (plywood). Gibson's
> >high-end instruments are superb, but the quality falls off very fast as
> >you move down the pricelist.
>
> I wish someone would clear this whole matter up once and
> for all. When people refer to say, a Gibson ES-175 as being
> made of' "Plywood," what exactly are they saying?
> Gibson literature will refer to this guitar as being made
> from a, "Maple laminate." Of course this is not the kind
> of plywood you get from the local lumber mill...
Gibson is just trying to differentiate the material they use from the
lumbar yard variety of plywood. I think it's a valid point though (of
course, I do play a 175 #;?\ ). There are certainly differences in
grades of plywood or laminates or whatever just as with solid woods,
different spruces. Plus, a given piece of solid top wood is subject to
the effects of curing, drying etc.so they are not necessarily equal
either. Personally I think one's focus should be on the sound you're
going after or simply what you like, and for this you need experience to
decide what you prefer. After a lot of years and a lot of guitars
including a Patterson 17in hand carved model, I've ended up playing a
175CC because that's the SOUND I want. Also I'm into playability these
days.. you've got to be comfortable with the instrument. But again, it
takes time and experience to develop your individual likes and dislikes.
An L50 can be a cool funky box if that's what you're after, but it's not
a D'aquisto (and vice versa). If you like it, play it, but above all
make sure it FEELS good. As far as plywood guitars go, think electric
archtop more so than strictly acoustic.
Dean G.
Lawson G. Stone
Dean Granros wrote:
>
> Gibson is just trying to differentiate the material they use from the
> lumbar yard variety of plywood. I think it's a valid point though (of
> course, I do play a 175 #;?\ ). There are certainly differences in
> grades of plywood or laminates or whatever just as with solid woods,
> different spruces. Plus, a given piece of solid top wood is subject to
> the effects of curing, drying etc.so they are not necessarily equal
> either. Personally I think one's focus should be on the sound you're
> going after or simply what you like, and for this you need experience to
> decide what you prefer. After a lot of years and a lot of guitars
> including a Patterson 17in hand carved model, I've ended up playing a
> 175CC because that's the SOUND I want. Also I'm into playability these
> days.. you've got to be comfortable with the instrument. But again, it
> takes time and experience to develop your individual likes and dislikes.
> An L50 can be a cool funky box if that's what you're after, but it's not
> a D'aquisto (and vice versa). If you like it, play it, but above all
> make sure it FEELS good. As far as plywood guitars go, think electric
> archtop more so than strictly acoustic.
>
> Dean G.
I think Dean's right here. The aim is sound and fit. If it plays well
for you and gives you the sound you want, it's the right guitar.
It's important also to consider what materials and construction
techniques produce an instrument that will keep sounding good for your
whole life. Likewise, which will produce a guitar whose tone is flexible
for you incase later you want to sound somewhat different and don't want
to go out and buy another instrument.
These latter issues may raise questions about extreme low-cost
laminates, but some solid top guitar that are not carved well, braced
well, finished correctly, etc. lack that durability and flexibility too.
My solution? I got a solid top/floating pickup archtop as my "main"
instrument, a Heritage Golden Eagle, which I found for a steal at a
trade show. I also acquired a used Epiphone Emperor II (like the Joe
Pass) very inexpensively. Between these two almost any sound I want in
the jazz vein, I can produce. So now I just have figure out how to play
worth anything.
Being a good musician is hard on any instrument.
Dave
Dean Granros wrote:
>
> Catsswing wrote:
> >
> > > The L-50 is laminate (plywood). Gibson's
> > >high-end instruments are superb, but the quality falls off very fast as
> > >you move down the pricelist.
> >
> > I wish someone would clear this whole matter up once and
> > for all. When people refer to say, a Gibson ES-175 as being
> > made of' "Plywood," what exactly are they saying?
> > Gibson literature will refer to this guitar as being made
> > from a, "Maple laminate." Of course this is not the kind
> > of plywood you get from the local lumber mill...
>
> lumbar yard variety of plywood. I think it's a valid point though (of
> course, I do play a 175 #;?\ ). There are certainly differences in
> grades of plywood or laminates or whatever just as with solid woods,
> different spruces. Plus, a given piece of solid top wood is subject to
> the effects of curing, drying etc.so they are not necessarily equal
> either. Personally I think one's focus should be on the sound you're
> going after or simply what you like, and for this you need experience to
> decide what you prefer. After a lot of years and a lot of guitars
> including a Patterson 17in hand carved model, I've ended up playing a
> 175CC because that's the SOUND I want. Also I'm into playability these
> days.. you've got to be comfortable with the instrument. But again, it
> takes time and experience to develop your individual likes and dislikes.
> An L50 can be a cool funky box if that's what you're after, but it's not
> a D'aquisto (and vice versa). If you like it, play it, but above all
> make sure it FEELS good. As far as plywood guitars go, think electric
> archtop more so than strictly acoustic.
>
> Dean G.
Gibson 175 and Benedetto's custom for J. Pizzerelli, were meant to be
played with amplification. In my living room, I prefer the subtleties of
a carved top with a floating pickup; however, onstage, a laminated top
with a pickup or two mounted directly to the face gives significant
relief from feedback and produces an excellent amplified tone.
Dave
Mark Cleary
> >
> >e to
> > decide what you prefer. After a lot of years and a lot of guitars
> > including a Patterson 17in hand carved model, I've ended up playing a
> > 175CC because that's the SOUND I want. Also I'm into playability these
> > days.. you've got to be comfortable with the instrument. But again, it
> > takes time and experience to develop your individual likes and dislikes.
> > An L50 can be a cool funky box if that's what you're after, but it's not
> > a D'aquisto (and vice versa). If you like it, play it, but above all
> > make sure it FEELS good. As far as plywood guitars go, think electric
> > archtop more so than strictly acoustic.
I must respond to this as it is a case of playability and tone. Many
times it is difficult to find the correct balance. Playing a Carve-top
without electricity generally requires the action to be higher. The old
30's and 40's Epiphone fall into this catagory and generally are harder
to play. Big neck and the strings need to be high to drive the sound.
Myself I do not want to fight the guitar but I still need some tone.
Find a good Carve -top with a floater and then you can adjust when you
go acoustic. I have played jobs where I do some Strolling and this is
all acoustic. I simply raise the action a bit and go to the gig.
Lawson seems to have found the good marriage he has both. THe sound must
be good out of the amp or you are really in trouble. If you cannot take
the feed-back then you will need to consider a built-in box with a
plywood top. I have 1937 non-cut D'angelico and I just forget about ever
pluggin' in the floating-pick up. There is really no point. I might add
that I can, and do, play alot of single line on the guitar--- but you
better have alot of power in your left hand. I could set the action down
to almost nothing and it would be fine but at the expense of great tone.
Once you get the chops up for the higher action it is no problem.
Picking up one of my students Les Pauls with .009 after that is quite a
difference. I can really bend some notes I just don't know what to do
with them once they are bent.
When you find a guitar that feels good in the hands and sounds the way
your "inner ear" says is great, buy it. Don't look at the name because
you are buying sound and performance. Look at the name when you are
collecting, trading, and trying to guess the market. That is a different
issue completely.
> > Dean G.
> I agree with Dean. The serious laminated instruements, such as the
> Gibson 175 and Benedetto's custom for J. Pizzerelli, were meant to be
> played with amplification. In my living room, I prefer the subtleties of
> a carved top with a floating pickup; however, onstage, a laminated top
> with a pickup or two mounted directly to the face gives significant
> relief from feedback and produces an excellent amplified tone.
> Dave
--
Mark Cleary makes music on the finest tools available,
"HOLLENBECK GUITARS" the finest handmade arch-top guitars.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <333359...@wport.com> bdmi...@wport.com writes:
>
>NO CUTAWAY?!! you say? I use my L-5 for big band jazz often and rarely
>get up into the cutaway. I feel strongly that if you SHOP FOR ACOUSTIC
>TONE, YOU CANNOT GO WRONG!
My general feeling is that if you want to go way up on the neck into
the cutaway, solid-bodies get a better tone, especially on those
high-end chords. This may sound sacreligious, and I'd probably
change my mind if you stretched me on a rack and held my feet
to a fire, but it's just MHO.
Brent
>
> Yes, Randall, I agree 100%, but I will go much further.
> Laminated is worse. Worse. Worse. Worse. Much Worse. Fine violins,
> celli, pianos, harps, etc. ALL have solid spruce soundboards. It is the
> only way to make a fine instrument.
> Compare a Hundai and a Porche, while you're at it.
I will agree that a Porsche (not Porche) is better than a Hyundai, (not
Hundai) but I do not think that the metaphor applies. Performance in the
case of an automobile comes from the motor, the suspension, etc. 95% of
the performance from a guitar comes from the fingers, the mind, the
soul, and spirit of the player. I would rather listen to Joe Pass on
his "plywood" guitar, than 90% of the players of solid spruce tops.
I worry that the music industry has not turned all of us into equipment
geeks. Have we substituted the all elusive "tone" for technique,
artistry, and beauty? (sigh) I still don't know the difference between
an el84 and 6L6...
Brent
Mezorro
Brent wrote:
> ".....95% of
> the performance from a guitar comes from the fingers, the mind, the
> soul, and spirit of the player. I would rather listen to Joe Pass on
> his "plywood" guitar, than 90% of the players of solid spruce tops.
>
> I worry that the music industry has not turned all of us into equipment
> geeks. Have we substituted the all elusive "tone" for technique,
> artistry, and beauty? (sigh) I still don't know the difference between
> an el84 and 6L6...
>
> Brent
BRENT!!!! RIGHT ON!!!!!
You are right on, man. The music comes from within. Joe on his ES175,
Leadbelly on his crappy Stella, and all the rest. The collectors and
music consumers have become very equipment oriented. They want the best,
and they drive the prices way up. This is a fact. They've got the bucks
and that's what they want. Tsumura, Chinery, all the way down the food
chain to high school kids who can't even really play, yet.
Most of the active full time professionals can't afford the best. They
play on what they can afford.
However, here is another fact: Plywood violin=inferior acoustic
instrument. Plywood bass=inferior acoustic instrument. Plywood
guitar=inferior acoustic instrument. From flat tops to archtops. These
are the facts.
Bad player on a D'Angelico=bad music
Good player on a Kay=good music
But that was not the issue. It wasn't talent. It was plywood vs. solid
wood. Maybe the Hyundai vs. Porche comparison didn't meet with your
approval. Sorry. Maybe I should have said Timex vs. Rolex. Whatever. You
can tell time on a Timex, but after 25 years of looking down at your $20
Timex, you reward yourself, for your years of hard work, with a Rolex,
or if you don't like that...Omega....or....Patek Phillipe....or let's
compare golf clubs......
So there you have it.
Moral: Put the music first. Study. Practice. Be the best musician you
can. Do it on a student model. When you've worked real hard, and you
deserve it, buy something special. Maybe with solid wood!
But....you are right.
Regards,
Mez
Stan Gosnell
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () wrote:
Of course they do. Solid bodies get a lot more sustain, which is why
they were invented, & you need more sustain for high-end chords,
because they die away so fast.
Ted Butterman
Forget the L-50. Don't let price be the deciding factor if at all
possible. You're better off saving and moving up to at least an L-7. You
are on the right track however, in wanting an acoustic archtop in my
opinion.
dea...@rosemount.com
On Sat, 29 Mar 1997 19:51:12 -0800, Mezorro <mez...@pacbell.net>
wrote:
Mez,
When I look down at my $35.00 Timex IronMan with 1/100 sec quartz
digital accuracy, 100 lap stopwatch memory, 10 discreet alarms, 5
memo registers, and 10 count down and interval timers which can
initiate the stopwatch function, and it is night and the face is lit
up with a pleasant blue glow . . and then I contemplate a $10,000.00
Rolex with analog dial and impossible to read subdials (but gold
plated, I admit) . . . I wonder whether this latest metaphor isn't
working against your point. Also, Mez, you have stronly implied that
guitars like the much venerated ES175 are student models. While we
are all lifelong students, I wonder why Pass, Hall, Herb Ellis, Tal,
and many others continued playing these plywood boxes long past the
point where most of us would feel we "deserved" something "better".
Could it be that these plywood boxes could be depended upon to work,
night after night, less subject to the ravages of humidity,
temperature, and feedback as well as more suited to the demands of
newer, more energetic music than that gorgeous acoustic super400 with
the floating pickup? Like a timex, they just keep on ticking. Let
the collectors congratulate each other on their porsches, high-end
'vintage' 'collectable' guitars, rolex watches, and gold necklaces.
Dean
Dave
and plywood?" Then someone made it clear that there is no difference
between "laminate" and "plywood" other than the spelling. Then somewhere
along the way we got into this "inferior" line of discussion, which
seemed settled a few days ago days ago with the line of reasoning that
it depends on what you plan to do with the instruement and what you
prefer.
John Pizzarelli plays a laminated archtop. Since it was made by Mr.
Benedetto I assume that plywood wasn't chosen for budgetary reasons.
Evidently a fine player like John has a preference for the overall
effect he gets with a laminated guitar. A whole host of great players
use 175s and their clones, and I'm sure that many could afford an L-5 or
equivalent if that were their preference.
I once owned a 75 year old German laminated double bass which I
purchased from an esteemed member of the Dallas Symphony. All that heard
this instruement thought it had a beautiful tone. It's been on a couple
of world tours since I sold it and you may have heard it on a record or
two recently. So enough with this talk of laminates being "inferior",
ipso facto. Let everyone play and listen and chose their instruements
based on what sounds good to them in their own situation.
Respectfully,
Dave
p.s. My archtop guitar has a solid top.
Mezorro
> >Bad player on a D'Angelico=bad music
> >Good player on a Kay=good music
> Mez,
>
> When I look down at my $35.00 Timex IronMan......"
Blah Blah Blah.
Stop with that crap, will you? It was a simple comparison. I don't care
about your friggin timex. I don't care about Rolexes, or Porches, or
whatever.
The student model I referred to was a Kay. (See above)
I made it clear that the music comes from within. Use whatever
instrument moves you or what you can afford. I couldn't care less.
Most equipment will eventually fail you anyway. Most manufacturers make
overpriced crap. Most guitar players are lazy. They deserve each other.
Good bye.
dea...@rosemount.com
On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:19:53 -0800, Mezorro <mez...@pacbell.net>
wrote:
>
>Blah Blah Blah.
>Stop with that crap, will you? It was a simple comparison. I don't care
>about your friggin timex. I don't care about Rolexes, or Porches, or
>whatever.
>The student model I referred to was a Kay. (See above)
>I made it clear that the music comes from within. Use whatever
>instrument moves you or what you can afford. I couldn't care less.
>Most equipment will eventually fail you anyway. Most manufacturers make
>overpriced crap. Most guitar players are lazy. They deserve each other.
>Good bye.
>
>
Mez, your right. When I look back on my message I sound like a jerk.
Most guitar players are not only lazy they are also jerks. I don't
like 'em either. And you are right about overpriced crap. If I had it
to do over again I would learn to play a real instrument. But then
I'd probably have to take myself seriously. I become an asshole when
I try to justify the 30 years I've wasted on this buzzing humming son
of a pallet. I apologize. You were trying to make a simple and
valide point about fine acoustic tone and guitar construction and I
was picking on it.
Dean
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <33409A...@pacbell.net> mez...@pacbell.net writes:
>> >Bad player on a D'Angelico=bad music
>> >Good player on a Kay=good music
>>
>
>I made it clear that the music comes from within. Use whatever
>instrument moves you or what you can afford.
Yes, the guitar is not important. What is important is that you
plug it into a Lady Kenmore pink-face amp. No other amp can
touch that Sears Roebuck mail-order craftsmanship.
Central Scrutinizer
Hi all,
PMFJI.....
>Brent wrote:
>> ".....95% of
>> the performance from a guitar comes from the fingers, the mind, the
>> soul, and spirit of the player.
I don't agree with that percentage. I think it's more like 60% the
player and 40% the equipment. For example:
Take player "A". Give him a Les Paul, a Marshall amp, and a TS-9.
Take player "B" Give him a L-5, a polytone, and a chorus pedal.
Take player "C". Give him a Telecaster, a Super Reverb, and a
Wah-Wah.
Each of these players (A, B, and C) all have different backgrounds and
styles. They all are at different levels of technical, and musical
development. Yet I'll betcha a case of good beer that you or I could
EASILY tell who was playing what within 10 seconds.
OTOH, you take all 3 players, and give them identical equipment...and
I'll also betcha a case of beer that we both would be able to discern
obvious differences.
> I would rather listen to Joe Pass on
>> his "plywood" guitar, than 90% of the players of solid spruce tops.
Agreed. But I would have liked to have heard Joe playing a better
sounding guitar. It would have been icing on a excellent tasting cake.
:)
>> I worry that the music industry has not turned all of us into equipment
>> geeks. Have we substituted the all elusive "tone" for technique,
>> artistry, and beauty? (sigh) I still don't know the difference between
>> an el84 and 6L6...
Well, at least the musical merchandise companies. Marketing has
replaced reason, common sense and logic. But I do believe that we
ought to pay attention to *both* things; the music, and the
equipment. Neither really has to suffer. Both can be paid attention
to w/o the detriment of the other.
>You are right on, man. The music comes from within.
Agreed. But the tone can be directly traced back to physical
properties inherent in the guitar.
> Joe on his ES175,
>Leadbelly on his crappy Stella, and all the rest. The collectors and
>music consumers have become very equipment oriented. They want the best,
>and they drive the prices way up. This is a fact. They've got the bucks
>and that's what they want. Tsumura, Chinery, all the way down the food
>chain to high school kids who can't even really play, yet.
>Most of the active full time professionals can't afford the best. They
>play on what they can afford.
I couldn't agree more! Well done. :)
>However, here is another fact: Plywood violin=inferior acoustic
>instrument. Plywood bass=inferior acoustic instrument. Plywood
>guitar=inferior acoustic instrument. From flat tops to archtops. These
>are the facts.
Agreed.
>Bad player on a D'Angelico=bad music
>Good player on a Kay=good music
How about good player on a D'Angelico? <G>
>But that was not the issue. It wasn't talent. It was plywood vs. solid
>wood. Maybe the Hyundai vs. Porche comparison didn't meet with your
>approval. Sorry. Maybe I should have said Timex vs. Rolex. Whatever. You
>can tell time on a Timex, but after 25 years of looking down at your $20
>Timex, you reward yourself, for your years of hard work, with a Rolex,
>or if you don't like that...Omega....or....Patek Phillipe....or let's
>compare golf clubs......
I personally could take a set of Taylor Made Bubble Burner graphite
clubs (tour-stiff), w/ oversized heads, and titanium metal woods...
($1000) and I wouldn't be any better off than if I had bought a $300
set of Dunlops. But OTOH, I've only been playing golf for a few
months. <G>
OTOH, once I start to get better at the game, I'll be able to
appreciate the differences. Same as a new guitarist couldn't possible
be able to appreciate the difference between a Fender made plywood
D'Aquisto, vs. a hand made masterpiece like a real D'Aquisto. But
give him 20 years.....
The Timex, while not as ritzy as a Rolex...still keeps time every bit
as good.
The Porsche is much faster, handles better, and has more headroom
(you'll get more head if you drive the Porsche). <BFG>
>Moral: Put the music first. Study. Practice. Be the best musician you
>can. Do it on a student model. When you've worked real hard, and you
>deserve it, buy something special. Maybe with solid wood!
Excellent advice! :)
Kevin
The Central Scrutinizer
To reply, remove the pluses
Lawson G. Stone
Mezorro wrote:
>
> > >Bad player on a D'Angelico=bad music
> > >Good player on a Kay=good music
>
> >
> > When I look down at my $35.00 Timex IronMan......"
>
> Stop with that crap, will you? It was a simple comparison. I don't care
> about your friggin timex. I don't care about Rolexes, or Porches, or
> whatever.
> I made it clear that the music comes from within. Use whatever
> Most equipment will eventually fail you anyway. Most manufacturers make
> overpriced crap. Most guitar players are lazy. They deserve each other.
> Good bye.
This is a very poor way to behave when a part of your argument (an
analogy) has been criticised and found to be inadequate. It is also just
plain old bad behavior. we do better on this group. Save storming off on
temper tantrums for alt.guitar.juvenile or something. You made some good
points, so did he. Instead of leaving in a huff, work with us to sift
through to a more mature and illuminating approach that we can all
enjoy. Unless you just like storming off. It is kind of melodramatic and
probably felt pretty good.
--
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lawson Stone//Asbury Theological Seminary\\Wilmore, KY
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
o o o o o <o <o> o> o
.|. \|. \|/ // X \ | <| <|>
/\ >\ /< >\ /< >\ /< >\ /<
Mr. ASCIIhead learns the Macarena.
Giri Iyengar
> My general feeling is that if you want to go way up on the neck into
> the cutaway, solid-bodies get a better tone, especially on those
> high-end chords.
I'd agree with this, in general. Of course, there are always exceptions,
but most acoustic instruments have their best tone when played withing
a specific register/range. Most acoustic guitars, arch-top or otherwise,
don't sound that good when you get up near the 15th fret on the high E,
or so. At the very least, they don't sound like they sound in their lowest
3 octaves. Electric solidbodies have a more balanced tone across the
entire range of the instrument.
You can shoot me now.
..Giri
"As far as playing slide goes, anything above the 12th fret is showing
off." - Ry Cooder.
R. Ross
he must have just finished plowing through one of Ted Greene's chord
books..and..his woman turns to him lovingly and asks, ..."play me Brown
Eyed Girl..pleeeeeeeeeeze..pretty pleeeze.."
In <334169...@uky.campus.mci.net> "Lawson G. Stone"
Dave
good on an archtop. I find it easier to play many of these chords with a
cutaway. If you don't play there, then don't get a cutaway. Also, don't
be compelled to defend you're lack of a cutaway, or belittle those of us
who find it useful.
Dave
Giri Iyengar
Will both of you please stuff your egos back into your pockets and
walk away from this thread?
..Giri
Brian Miller
Hi Tom!
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
>
> In article <333359...@wport.com> bdmi...@wport.com writes:
> >
> >NO CUTAWAY?!! you say? I use my L-5 for big band jazz often and rarely
> >get up into the cutaway. I feel strongly that if you SHOP FOR ACOUSTIC
> >TONE, YOU CANNOT GO WRONG!
>
> My general feeling is that if you want to go way up on the neck into
> the cutaway, solid-bodies get a better tone, especially on those
> high-end chords. This may sound sacreligious, and I'd probably
> change my mind if you stretched me on a rack and held my feet
> to a fire, but it's just MHO.
I play chords up to the 9th fret often. I get a good "chunk-chunk"
behind a horn section between the 3rd & 9th frets. I also get the best
tone in that range for intimate arpeggiated chords too. Though I'm not
a virtuoso solo player, I can come up with some tasty lines. I get that
rich, creamy archtop sound from the 4th fret, up to the 12th fret. Any
higher and even my jazz light strings with a wound third start feeling
and sounding too "slinky", and the fingering gets tight. (Any lower and
it sounds a bit thin.) None of these voices require a cutaway. They
look cool though, and I have the freedom to move into the higher
registers.
--
||
In His Grace, ======
||
Brian Miller ||
||
To reply, remove the x in my address.
It's there to cut down on SPAM
Brian Miller
Giri Iyengar wrote:
>
> ... most acoustic instruments have their best tone when played withing
> a specific register/range. Most acoustic guitars, arch-top or otherwise,
> don't sound that good when you get up near the 15th fret on the high E,
> or so.
I agree Giri. Maybe I'm making a big assumption here but I dont read
alot about acoustic (guitar) jazz here in RMMGJ. Sound reinforcement
was (is) a real problem for live performance (in noisy venues). Charlie
Christian with his magnetic pickup equipped L-5 redefined the "paradigm"
(I hate that word) sound of the "Jazz" guitar, and countless artists
changed it again when Gibson introduced the PAF. The most popular
archtop acoustic sound was a mid-range percussive rhythm sound. IMHO,
the older single coil sound was (is) raw, and the humbucking (neck)
sound is softer (richer) and more intimate; the appreciation of both are
a matter of individual taste.
All this to say that even though I prefer archtops with a SINGING,
acoustic sound, I dont apply the same emphasis on the acoustic sweet
spot range of my archtop as I do on a flat-top, because the pickup makes
such a dramatic coloration of the sound. There is however, a much wider
sweet range on my archtop with the magnetic pickup that I prefer to stay
in because of playability, and the sound I get there.
> You can shoot me now.
> ..Giri
No way Giri!
Frank Hudson
In article <5hrog1$6...@crack.usaor.net>, Praetorian+@usaor.+net+ says...
> Hi all,
>
> PMFJI.....
>
>
> >Brent wrote:
> >> ".....95% of
> >> the performance from a guitar comes from the fingers, the mind, the
> >> soul, and spirit of the player.
>
> I don't agree with that percentage. I think it's more like 60% the
> player and 40% the equipment. For example:
>
> Take player "A". Give him a Les Paul, a Marshall amp, and a TS-9.
>
> Take player "B" Give him a L-5, a polytone, and a chorus pedal.
>
> Take player "C". Give him a Telecaster, a Super Reverb, and a
> Wah-Wah.
>
>
> Each of these players (A, B, and C) all have different backgrounds and
> styles. They all are at different levels of technical, and musical
> development. Yet I'll betcha a case of good beer that you or I could
> EASILY tell who was playing what within 10 seconds.
>
> OTOH, you take all 3 players, and give them identical equipment...and
> I'll also betcha a case of beer that we both would be able to discern
> obvious differences.
Interesting test. I'll give it two responses:
1. A piece by Bach or Monk played on a guitar, a piano, and marimba could
also be instantly recognizable as Bach or Monk, yet the tone would be
quite different. Is tone 5% or 40%? I dunno. All gawds music got tone,
but I'd say it's closer to 5 than 40.
2. Real world: I'll play low decibel improvised music on something like
"Player C". Weak old Tele type neck pickup, guitar tone rolled down,
Fender amp with the bass rolled up and treble rolled down, wah out of the
circuit (no true bypass, dampens the highs). Gets a nice woody, hollow
tone. If I was to stamp on the chorus pedal you might guess:
"Hmm. Low talent player, but I'm guessing I'm hearing B. Or maybe it's
Player A, but he doing something funny with the equipment. Can't be C, I
know that--where's that Tele bite and Fender amp glassiness?"
And maybe you could tell. But if I was 10% taller than you, you could
tell the difference in our height if we stood side by side easily. Would
that tell you who was the better basketball player?
--Frank Hudson
(remove x to reply)
Lawson G. Stone
Aw come on Giri; it isn't about ego. It's just guys having a spirited
argument. Nothing wrong with that and you've got your delete key.
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone輸sbury Theological Seminary邑ilmore, KY 40390
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////
"You know, a long time ago, being crazy meant something. Nowadays,
everybody's crazy." Charles Manson
Giri Iyengar
In article <3343B8...@uky.campus.mci.net>, "Lawson G. Stone" <lst...@uky.campus.mci.net> writes:
> Giri Iyengar wrote:
> >
> > Will both of you please stuff your egos back into your pockets and
> > walk away from this thread?
> >
> > ..Giri
>
> Aw come on Giri; it isn't about ego. It's just guys having a spirited
> argument. Nothing wrong with that and you've got your delete key.
Yes, it is/was about ego. They both had many sensible points to make, but
each chose to ignore whatever was valuable in the other's posts, and
picked on the fact that the other disagreed. That begins to feed on itself.
And yes, I do have a delete key, but I don't like to use it. The less,
the better, right. There are groups that I eventually stopped reading
because I was hitting the delete key for about 90% of the posts. All I
was saying is that they should try to bring the argument back to a sensible
level of disagreement, or stop altogether. Yelling at each other in public
isn't much fun for everyone else. True, they didn't go all that far, and
I might have overreacted. Perhaps I was feeling particularly intolerant.
It's never happened before, but it's possible. <g>
Ah well..
..Giri
Felix Wiedler
Brent <bj...@infohwy.com> schrieb im Beitrag <333D3F...@infohwy.com>...
> >
> soul, and spirit of the player. I would rather listen to Joe Pass on
> his "plywood" guitar, than 90% of the players of solid spruce tops.
Agree with you. Although I even more prefer to hear Joe Pass on a solid
wood acoustic archtop - like on his "Summer Nights" album: Soul, spirit,
and wonderful tone!
Felix
Giri Iyengar
In article <3342EE...@ibm.net>, Dave <dcs...@ibm.net> writes:
> Giri Iyengar wrote:
> > I'd agree with this, in general. Of course, there are always exceptions,
> > but most acoustic instruments have their best tone when played withing
> > a specific register/range. Most acoustic guitars, arch-top or otherwise,
> > don't sound that good when you get up near the 15th fret on the high E,
> > or so. At the very least, they don't sound like they sound in their lowest
> > 3 octaves. Electric solidbodies have a more balanced tone across the
> > entire range of the instrument.
> Still...certain chords played from the 11th thru 15th frets sound darn
> good on an archtop. I find it easier to play many of these chords with a
> cutaway. If you don't play there, then don't get a cutaway. Also, don't
> be compelled to defend you're lack of a cutaway, or belittle those of us
> who find it useful.
I suggest you reread my post before you react. I wasn't "defending my
lack of a cutaway" or belittling anyone.
..Giri
dea...@rosemount.com
Geez guys,
Give me a break, I said I was sorry. I even called myself a jerk and
an asshole. How much more ego bashing does it take? Maybe confession
and a hair shirt penance is in order. We're a little sensitive around
here aren't we? I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings, I was
merely stating a contrasting opinion and objecting to the use of
metaphors to support an opinion I disagree with. If the purpose of
this newsgroup is discussion, how careful do we have to be in
expressing contrary views? I won't say another word about it.
Dean
On 4 Apr 1997 15:44:34 GMT, giye...@aec004.ve.ford.com (Giri Iyengar)
wrote:
Dave
Dave
Lawson G. Stone
Not to mention the incredible tone on "Blues for Fred" which I think was
the one of the Ds (D'angelico or D'acquisto) both miked and electrically
amplified. It's really an amazing tone.
The one comment I ever heard Joe Pass make about laminate is on the
"Evening with Joe Pass" CD. While he's talking to Don Mock, Joe Diorio
brings him something to put cigar ashes in. Joe is fiddling with the
jack on the guitar, tightening it or something, and somehow Diorio bumps
Joe's custom made Gibson. He responds "It's okay, it's just plywood."
Ted Butterman
If this is still the the board where the original question about "Are
1941 Gibson L-50's any good", the answer is an emphatic no.
Gregory J. Hough
dea...@rosemount.com wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:19:53 -0800, Mezorro <mez...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Stop with that crap, will you? It was a simple comparison. I don't care
> >about your friggin timex. I don't care about Rolexes, or Porches, or
> >whatever.
> >The student model I referred to was a Kay. (See above)
> >I made it clear that the music comes from within. Use whatever
> >instrument moves you or what you can afford. I couldn't care less.
> >Most equipment will eventually fail you anyway. Most manufacturers make
> >overpriced crap. Most guitar players are lazy. They deserve each other.
> >Good bye.
> >
> >
> Most guitar players are not only lazy they are also jerks. I don't
> like 'em either. And you are right about overpriced crap. If I had it
> to do over again I would learn to play a real instrument. But then
> I'd probably have to take myself seriously. I become an asshole when
> I try to justify the 30 years I've wasted on this buzzing humming son
> of a pallet. I apologize. You were trying to make a simple and
> valide point about fine acoustic tone and guitar construction and I
> was picking on it.
>
> Dean
Both you guys sound like a couple of sorry whiny old ladies. But then if
every thing is crap then that is the best excuse for not being very good
and not ever fulfilling your potential.
Mezorro
Gregory J. Hough wrote:
> Both you guys sound like a couple of sorry whiny old ladies. But then if
> every thing is crap then that is the best excuse for not being very good
> and not ever fulfilling your potential.
Wrong, Greg.
First, Dean got the point and wrote back a nice note. He's was very
gentlemanly and sportsmanlike. Dean and I are getting along just fine.
Just like two sorry whiny old ladies at Birdland.
Now, for you: Regarding the crap. Most of the instruments are crap. The
ones that aren't crap are too expensive. Most guitar owners can't play,
and won't practice hard enough to make it happen.
Regarding excuses for not fullfilling one's potential: All the
instruments can burn, or wash away in a flood, or get ripped off, or
eaten by termites, or get run over by cars. It doesn't matter. The
talent or potential comes from the player. Not the instrument.
If I had to, I could do almost any one of my jobs on almost any
instrument. This is the truth.
The manufacturers are dealing with marketing, advertising, manufacturing
costs, availability of materials, bottom lines, accounts recievable...
We, the players are dealing with art, music, study, etc.
Yes, a fine luthier is a hard working artist/craftsperson, just like us.
But the big guys, with the initials "F" "G" "E" "I" "Y", etc. crank out
whatever they can get away with. Then the guitar players plunk their
hard earned money down on some $2,500.00 plywood guitar, with a
polyeurthane finish, lousy color, cheap metal parts, etc. and hope that
their holy grail average piece of crap will make them into a better
player, and appreciate in value at the same time.
In conclusion, I will repeat myself. Spend your money on your talent and
potential. Buy a metronome. By some books. Take some lessons. Don't
treat the instrument like a trophy.
Jim Kroger
| Felix Wiedler wrote:
| >
| > Brent <bj...@infohwy.com> schrieb im Beitrag <333D3F...@infohwy.com>...
| > > >
| > > soul, and spirit of the player. I would rather listen to Joe Pass on
| > > his "plywood" guitar, than 90% of the players of solid spruce tops.
| >
| > Agree with you. Although I even more prefer to hear Joe Pass on a solid
| > wood acoustic archtop - like on his "Summer Nights" album: Soul, spirit,
| > and wonderful tone!
| >
| > Felix
|
Felix, do you know what he played on Summer Nights? I have that somewhere,
and would like to give it a re-listen knowing what he is playing.
Thanks,
Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The author is singularly responsible for the contents of this
message; they do not reflect any opinion of the organizations
sponsoring this net account.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lawson G. Stone
Jim Kroger wrote:
>
> | Felix Wiedler wrote:
> | >
> | > Brent <bj...@infohwy.com> schrieb im Beitrag <333D3F...@infohwy.com>...
> | > > >
> | > > soul, and spirit of the player. I would rather listen to Joe Pass on
> | > > his "plywood" guitar, than 90% of the players of solid spruce tops.
> | >
> | > Agree with you. Although I even more prefer to hear Joe Pass on a solid
> | > wood acoustic archtop - like on his "Summer Nights" album: Soul, spirit,
> | > and wonderful tone!
> | >
> | > Felix
> |
>
> Felix, do you know what he played on Summer Nights? I have that somewhere,
> and would like to give it a re-listen knowing what he is playing.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim
I'm glad someone else loves that CD. According to the liner notes, Joe's
acoustic work on that album is a 1940's Epiphone owned by the father of
John Pisano, who, of course, plays incredible rhythm guitar on that
recording.
BTW with all the talk about the greatness (TRUE greatness!) of Freddie
Green as a rhythm player, I want to nominate John Pisano for the "Living
Freddie Green" award. He can do the 4/4 thing beautifully, but also
plays other kinds of more complex rhythm guitar and keeps things
swinging. He really comps, not just playing rhythm. And John Pisano's
playing is some of the most ego-free comping I have ever heard. He is
always setting up the soloist, time after time. They don't get better
than that.
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone—Asbury Theological Seminary—Wilmore, KY 40390
Lawson G. Stone
Mezorro wrote:
>
> Gregory J. Hough wrote:
>
> Wrong, Greg.
> First, Dean got the point and wrote back a nice note. He's was very
> gentlemanly and sportsmanlike. Dean and I are getting along just fine.
> Just like two sorry whiny old ladies at Birdland.
>
SNIP
> In conclusion, I will repeat myself. Spend your money on your talent and
> potential. Buy a metronome. By some books. Take some lessons. Don't
> treat the instrument like a trophy.
Good advice here. I would just delete the business of buying books, and
say "transcribe a lot of solos." That's worth all the books, you already
have the recordings, and public domain software will help you slow it
down and loop it. One or two transcriptions done teaches you more than a
month of lessons and $100 worth of books, plus you're working with
primary sources instead of the theories of others. Whatever you learn
from transcriptions will be right. You don't always know about books.
Glad you guys are getting along. I just wish we weren't so squeamish
around here about solid, informed, passionate disagreement--not flames,
but maybe some real fire.
billw...@aol.com
>In conclusion, I will repeat myself. Spend your money on your talent and
>potential. Buy a metronome. By some books. Take some lessons. Don't
>treat the instrument like a trophy.
I came into this thread a little late. (HELL! I came into the newsgroup a little late!) Please expound on some of these thoughts?
Are you telling me you would own a plywood guitar? Do you play it? Do you make money playing it?
My personal dilemma is that I am looking for a jazz guitar - nothing too big, something that's easy to play fingerstyle on. (Neck not too wide, nor fret scale too long.) I liked the Epiphone Joe
Pass, but threw up my hands in despair when I learned it was laminate. Then I found an Aria Pro II Jazz Model, which I liked even BETTER than the Epiphone. It, too, was laminate. I thought to
myself, if I'm trying to get gigs with this guitar, and if the auditioner KNOWS guitars, is he going to laugh my ass off the stage for playing a laminate, $550 guitar?
Of course, I can't afford the Herb Ellis ES-350 I would really like. So what's a guy to do? I own many other guitars, anbd I don't have the trophy mentality. I don't play THAT well, you know? But
I want to be respected by the other players I might find myself in the company of.
????
E ho'omau ana i na mele Hawai'i ma Philadelphia nei...
Bill Wynne Na Hanai Productions Philadelphia, PA
http://members.aol.com/nahanai/index.html
dea...@rosemount.com
On 7 Apr 1997 15:35:35 GMT, billw...@aol.com wrote:
>My personal dilemma is that I am looking for a jazz guitar - nothing too big, something that's easy to play fingerstyle on. (Neck not too wide, nor fret scale too long.) I liked the Epiphone Joe
>Pass, but threw up my hands in despair when I learned it was laminate. Then I found an Aria Pro II Jazz Model, which I liked even BETTER than the Epiphone. It, too, was laminate. I thought to
>myself, if I'm trying to get gigs with this guitar, and if the auditioner KNOWS guitars, is he going to laugh my ass off the stage for playing a laminate, $550 guitar?
>
>Of course, I can't afford the Herb Ellis ES-350 I would really like. So what's a guy to do? I own many other guitars, anbd I don't have the trophy mentality. I don't play THAT well, you know? But
>I want to be respected by the other players I might find myself in the company of.
An ES350, I don't know about the Herb Ellis model but I assume it's
the same, is a 'plywood' guitar. Tal Farlow, one of the greatest
bebop guitarists who ever walked the earth, or any other planet as far
as I know, made some of his milestone recordings with a 350. So did
Howard Roberts (as well as a 175). Both the original and reissued Tal
Farlow models are laminated maple top guitars based on the ES350 by
Tal's request. So there's nothing unprofessional about 'plywood'
guitars as such and if the 'auditioner' really knows what's up with
jazz guitars you shouldn't get laughed off the stage, at least not
because of that. This thread's already beaten and eaten this horse,
but I don't think anyone will argue (famous last words) that a
properly set up and amped laminated hollow body can be a gorgeous
sounding instrument (as can a Tele). If you don't believe me, find
the Bill Evans & Jim Hall duo recording "Undercurrents" and you'll
hear some of the most beautiful tone ever (it easily rivals Johnny
Smith's, and Jim's ideas are way hipper) all done on a 175 with a
single P90. Also, to fan the flames a little more, some of the purest
swingingest jazz ever recorded is on Grant Greens early recordings . .
. on a ES330. And what guitar has seen more "professional" use than
the ES335? For all styles of music. A fine carved archtop is a
wonderful thing, but then again if it's image your thinking about,
you don't want to show up looking like a new mechanic with a brand new
toolbox do you? There's a lot of good player's I know who are using
the new Epi's and the like because they do the job, sound good, and,
if you happen to own an old J. Smith or D'Aquisto, you might just want
to leave that baby at home when you walk that block from the car to
the bar.
Just my opinion, of course.
Dean
Jonathan Byrd
Jim Kroger wrote:
>
> do you know what he played on Summer Nights? I have that somewhere,
> and would like to give it a re-listen knowing what he is playing.
The liner notes say it is an Epiphone Deluxe from the 1940s.
--
Jonathan Byrd Computing and Communications
j...@isu.edu Idaho State University
(208)-236-3199 Pocatello, Idaho, USA
http://www.isu.edu/~jon/ FAX: (208)-236-3673
Lawson G. Stone
billw...@aol.com wrote:
> =
> In article <334710...@pacbell.net>, Mezorro <mez...@pacbell.net> w=
rites:
> =
> >In conclusion, I will repeat myself. Spend your money on your talent a=
nd
> >potential. Buy a metronome. By some books. Take some lessons. Don't
> >treat the instrument like a trophy.
> =
> I came into this thread a little late. (HELL! I came into the newsgro=
up a little late!) Please expound on some of these thoughts?
> =
> Are you telling me you would own a plywood guitar? Do you play it? Do=
you make money playing it?
> =
> My personal dilemma is that I am looking for a jazz guitar - nothing to=
o big, something that's easy to play fingerstyle on. (Neck not too wide,=
nor fret scale too long.) I liked the Epiphone Joe
> Pass, but threw up my hands in despair when I learned it was laminate. =
Then I found an Aria Pro II Jazz Model, which I liked even BETTER than t=
he Epiphone. It, too, was laminate. I thought to
> myself, if I'm trying to get gigs with this guitar, and if the audition=
er KNOWS guitars, is he going to laugh my ass off the stage for playing a=
laminate, $550 guitar?
> =
> Of course, I can't afford the Herb Ellis ES-350 I would really like. S=
o what's a guy to do? I own many other guitars, anbd I don't have the tr=
ophy mentality. I don't play THAT well, you know? But
> I want to be respected by the other players I might find myself in the =
company of.
> =
First, you don';t want to "be respected." You want to play well. Nobody
ever got respect by wanting it. You get respect by being good, knowing
your horn, knowing the repertoire, having big ears, and a good heart.
Play well, really care about the music and your fellow musicians, and
forget about being respected.
"Plywood" guitars have been played by the best. Joe Pass, Jim Hall, Herb
Ellis, Pat Metheny all played the ES 175, which is laminate, but it
defined one of the classic jazz sounds.
Anybody who'd laugh you off the stage just for playing a laminated
guitar is probably not somebody you want to work for anyway. If they
don't know the great music that has been made on the 175, for example,
or the Ibanez the Joe Pass played for over 10 years, then they don't
know very much. If they won't listen to you play and judge you from your
sound and musicianship, you'll probably pass them on the way up. =
Stop worrying about what people think about you. Think about making good
music.
-- =
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone=97Asbury Theological Seminary=97Wilmore, KY 40390
Giri Iyengar
> Stop worrying about what people think about you. Think about making good
> music.
That can't be reiterated enough. If your goal is to make good music,
concentrate on that. I've actually had people leave the room (all 5
of them) when I started playing. You don't see me quitting, do you? :-)
..Giri
Lawson G. Stone
That's pretty good. When I play, they dial 911.
But let's not cut ourselves down too much. I played a little free gig a
couple of nights ago that was just fun. We were pretty awful, but
playing badly is better than not playing.
Some things are worth doing badly. But it would be nice to do it a lot
better. I figure I'm helping people realize the virtue of professional
musicians. After hearing me, they know they need pros.
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone輸sbury Theological Seminary邑ilmore, KY 40390
billw...@aol.com
>Stop worrying about what people think about you. Think about making good
>music.
Lord bless you people for making me feel better - and for saving me a lot of money. I wish I had found this newsgroup sooner!
If you'll excuse me, now, I have to go practice on my laminated Gibson ES-325...
Bill Wynne
Guitarist
Philadelphia
http://members.aol.com/nahanai/index.html
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <334793...@uky.campus.mci.net> lst...@uky.campus.mci.net writes:
>BTW with all the talk about the greatness (TRUE greatness!) of Freddie
>Green as a rhythm player, I want to nominate John Pisano for the "Living
>Freddie Green" award. He can do the 4/4 thing beautifully, but also
>plays other kinds of more complex rhythm guitar and keeps things
>swinging. He really comps, not just playing rhythm. And John Pisano's
>playing is some of the most ego-free comping I have ever heard. He is
>always setting up the soloist, time after time. They don't get better
>than that.
He's good, but Jim Hall and Ed Bickert are even better compers.
Wolfe Axe
But...you can have it both ways! I deliver H575 Heritages with solid
carved top & back, made in Kalamazoo, MI. by the world's most
experienced guitar makers, for $1275!!! Single or dual pickup- The 575
is a great instrument, and not overpriced. Sure, you can sound fine
with plywood, but thanks to the guys in Kalamazoo, you can have a
better guitar for less coin. What's wrong with that?
Jay Wolfe
Giri Iyengar
In article <334ABD...@uky.campus.mci.net>, "Lawson G. Stone" <lst...@uky.campus.mci.net> writes:
> Giri Iyengar wrote:
> > That can't be reiterated enough. If your goal is to make good music,
> > concentrate on that. I've actually had people leave the room (all 5
> > of them) when I started playing. You don't see me quitting, do you? :-)
> >
> > ..Giri
> That's pretty good. When I play, they dial 911.
Heh. But the cops refuse to enter the building without riot gear, right?
But let me bleat on for a second. This was at a party. Bunch of people
in someone's room. Electric guitar and amp making the rounds. A nice
rendition of "Blackbird." I should have known better, but when it came
around to me, I did my best David Torn-meets-Bill Frisell imitation. I
was really getting *into* it, too! Then I look up in time to see the
last person sneaking out. Wow! Took my ego all of a day to recover from
that blow. End bleat.
> But let's not cut ourselves down too much. I played a little free gig a
> couple of nights ago that was just fun. We were pretty awful, but
> playing badly is better than not playing.
The way I figure it: I play as well as I can, and I play what makes me
happy, what I want to play. *Then*, if I can push it down someone's throat,
great! Doesn't happen too often, but it's worth it every so often when
someone says "Cool!" It's usually someone I least expect it from.
> Some things are worth doing badly. But it would be nice to do it a lot
> better.
Absolutely. So we'll keep at it, and keep getting better. But that really
isn't what makes me play. It's not the hope of being very good someday.
It's the joy, the thrill, the goosebumps, of making sounds, of grooving,
of spiralling into some unknown self-perpetuating loop of improvised
fantasy.
> I figure I'm helping people realize the virtue of professional
> musicians. After hearing me, they know they need pros.
Bad joke warning! After hearing *me*, they need prozac!
Later..
..Giri "feeling a little 'out' today" Iyengar
billw...@aol.com
>He's good, but Jim Hall and Ed Bickert are even better compers.
Just listen to Hall's work with Jimmy Giuffre and you can verify the truth in this
statement.
But pick up John Pisano's solo CD anyway, 'cause it's hot!
Bill Wynne
Guitarist
Philadelphia
Lawson G. Stone
Giri Iyengar wrote:
> =
> In article <334ABD...@uky.campus.mci.net>, "Lawson G. Stone" <lston=
e...@uky.campus.mci.net> writes:
> > Giri Iyengar wrote:
> =
> > > That can't be reiterated enough. If your goal is to make good music=
,
> > > concentrate on that. I've actually had people leave the room (all 5=
> > > of them) when I started playing. You don't see me quitting, do you?=
:-)
> > >
> > > ..Giri
> =
> > That's pretty good. When I play, they dial 911.
> =
> Heh. But the cops refuse to enter the building without riot gear, right=
?
> But let me bleat on for a second. This was at a party. Bunch of people
> in someone's room. Electric guitar and amp making the rounds. A nice
> rendition of "Blackbird." I should have known better, but when it came
> around to me, I did my best David Torn-meets-Bill Frisell imitation. I
> was really getting *into* it, too! Then I look up in time to see the
> last person sneaking out. Wow! Took my ego all of a day to recover from=
> that blow. End bleat.
> =
When they EMT's get into where I'm playing, they start having debates
about assisted suicide and the right to die...
> > But let's not cut ourselves down too much. I played a little free gig=
a
> > couple of nights ago that was just fun. We were pretty awful, but
> > playing badly is better than not playing.
> =
> The way I figure it: I play as well as I can, and I play what makes me
> happy, what I want to play. *Then*, if I can push it down someone's thr=
oat,
> great! Doesn't happen too often, but it's worth it every so often when
> someone says "Cool!" It's usually someone I least expect it from.
> =
Actually, I find I use a little self-deprecation to depress
expectations, creating a little more likelihood that people will say
nice things to me about my playing. I actually am getting good enough to
at least realize that NOT every mistake in the music was made by me. I
am trying to learn to speak more accurately of my playing, which has
limits, painfully growing points, and some good points too. I am getting
better. That feels sensational.
The little gig I mentioned has a sequel. It was overall a very loose,
often incompetent performance. BUT something happened for 3 measures on
"Satin Doll." I'd played the head "chord melody" style, which I do
pretty well. Then I took the obligatory solo. Normally just a lot of
arpeggios and ii-V licks, mechanical stuff, what I hate most about my
line playing. Listening to the tape, though, I heard about 3 measures
that I KNOW I had never played ever before in my life. Not brilliant,
but for a moment I forgot it was ME playing and said "Hey what was
that?" Not coincidentally, that happened after I started focusing my
"study" on transcribing solos. The "shape" of the phrase I played, I
realized, did come from a solo I'd transcribed. I hadn't really studied
it, and the notes and chords were different, but somehow this phrase's
shape just snuck into my mind and popped out of my fingertips. I know
you have to be hard up to find 3 measures out of 32 to be really proud
of, but I feel like that was a little birth for me.
> > Some things are worth doing badly. But it would be nice to do it a lo=
t
> > better.
> =
> Absolutely. So we'll keep at it, and keep getting better. But that real=
ly
> isn't what makes me play. It's not the hope of being very good someday.=
> It's the joy, the thrill, the goosebumps, of making sounds, of grooving=
,
> of spiralling into some unknown self-perpetuating loop of improvised
> fantasy.
>
That's a mouthful. What I usually end up in is a kind of
self-perpetuating crash-burn trainwreck, dragging the rest of the band
with me. We've decided we might as well plan on it, rehearse, and do it
as part of the act!
=
> > I figure I'm helping people realize the virtue of professional
> > musicians. After hearing me, they know they need pros.
> =
> Bad joke warning! After hearing *me*, they need prozac!
> =
> Later..
> ..Giri "feeling a little 'out' today" Iyengar
Wasn't there a thread recently about "how to get out" or something like
that?
-- =
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone=97Asbury Theological Seminary=97Wilmore, KY 40390
Mezorro
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
>
> In article <334793...@uky.campus.mci.net> lst...@uky.campus.mci.net writes:
> >BTW with all the talk about the greatness (TRUE greatness!) of Freddie
> >Green as a rhythm player, I want to nominate John Pisano for the "Living
> >Freddie Green" award. He can do the 4/4 thing beautifully, but also
> He's good, but Jim Hall and Ed Bickert are even better compers.
You people are really starting to bug me. So it's a pissing contest now?
Let's see, who's the winner? Who comps better?????
These are all fine musicians, who've devoted their lives to music, and
you amateur guitar owners come along and dismiss them, one at a time, as
'too this', or 'too that'.
Not only that, but many of these artists, like John Pisano, have shared
their hard earned knowledge with ungrateful 'wanna be's', like some of
you here on the internet.
Shame on you.
I'd much rather read comments like, "If you like the way 'So & So'
accompanies, check out 'This Guy' and 'That Gal'. They're very
talented......"
How would you like to be John Pisano, someone who has a resume a mile
long, with talent and experience to match, and read some lame comment
about yourself, which has no basis in fact or reality?
I'm beginning to think that some of your brains are made out of
plywood.
ige...@aol.com
Im Artikel <334F16...@pacbell.net>, Mezorro <mez...@pacbell.net> schreibt:
>> >BTW with all the talk about the greatness (TRUE greatness!) of Freddie
>> >Green as a rhythm player, I want to nominate John Pisano for the "Living
>> >Freddie Green" award. He can do the 4/4 thing beautifully, but also
>> >plays other kinds of....."
>> He's good, but Jim Hall and Ed Bickert are even better compers.
>These are all fine musicians, who've devoted their lives to music, and
>you amateur guitar owners come along and dismiss them, one at a time, as
>'too this', or 'too that'.
I agree. I don't like to talk about good, better or even "bad" players. There
might be people who do, but it's not the business of musicians, is it? I can
only tell the players I like to listen to and can learn from. And then again,
I can learn from almost everyone, even those I don't like particularly, no
matter what kind of music they make. I've read those "my-man-is-better-than-
your's" threads in other newsgroups and I've cancelled them all. It's boring.
>I'm beginning to think that some of your brains are made out of
>plywood.
You would prefer laminated brains? :)
(Didn't mean to offend anybody and apologize for my lousy English)
Holger Hermannsen
(ige...@aol.com)
JOHNPEARSE
The difference between laminate and plywood is the difference between
eccentricity and insanity. If you've got the bucks, folks will think
you're eccentric. If you're broke they'll call you insane!
John
Jim Kroger
In article <19970412172...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ige...@aol.com
wrote:
Brains ARE laminated. Six plies, in fact.
Lawson G. Stone
Mezorro wrote:
>
> You people are really starting to bug me. So it's a pissing contest now?
> Let's see, who's the winner? Who comps better?????
> you amateur guitar owners come along and dismiss them, one at a time, as
> 'too this', or 'too that'.
>
says they like this or that player on a particular point better than
another is not the sort of urinary competition you imply. If you have a
problem with people having strong opinions and disagreeing from time to
time, usenet is not going to be a happy place for you.
> Not only that, but many of these artists, like John Pisano, have shared
> their hard earned knowledge with ungrateful 'wanna be's', like some of
> you here on the internet.
>
funeral) and found him a kind, gracious man on top of his talent. His
wife is an elegant and kind woman as well as being a wonderful vocalist.
To express comparative opinions on particular points simply is not
dissing them as people, nor is it making light of their greatly
appreciated role in music, nor is it placing ourselves above them. It is
just the expression of an opionion, an impression, that's all.
> Shame on you.
>
Grow up.
> I'd much rather read comments like, "If you like the way 'So & So'
> accompanies, check out 'This Guy' and 'That Gal'. They're very
> talented......"
>
You can find those, too. But if you think all that should ever be said
is "I like X.." you're in the wrong neighborhood.
BTW many on this group are talented musicians who have paid and are
paying very heavy dues of their own. I'm not one of them, but not
everybody here is an "amateur guitar owner."
BTW#2 many who aren't pro players still aren't amateur owners. Some have
owned many guitars so long I'd call them professional owners. Some even
build, sell, buy, trade, in addition to playing.
> How would you like to be John Pisano, someone who has a resume a mile
> long, with talent and experience to match, and read some lame comment
> about yourself, which has no basis in fact or reality?
>
First of all, these opinions do have a basis in reality. The first
reality is listening. People on this group tend to talk about what
they've listened to a lot. The second reality is that players are
different. This will create the third reality, that of preferences. The
fourth reality is that many people express their preferences
rhetorically as an an attribute of the player--they say "X is better"
instead of saying "I like X better." I have found, though, that most on
this group has some very fine reasons for their preferences and often
they do notice ways in which one player might do better than another on
a particular point.
John Pisano is a great man with a big heart and a good head on his
shoulders. He probably would join in the talk and have a lot to offer
everybody, and not have his ego as involved as you think he does, and as
you do.
> I'm beginning to think that some of your brains are made out of
> plywood.
So what happened to your concern about the sorts of statements being
made about other players? Plywood brains?
I'm strictly a solid top: brains of solid spruce. Don't think any
better, but the sound when you hit it gets better every year.
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone—Asbury Theological Seminary—Wilmore, KY 40390
Mark Cleary
Lawson G. Stone wrote:
> =
> Mezorro wrote:
> >
>
> =
> =
> >
> >
>
> =
> >
> Grow up.
> =
> > I'd much rather read comments like, "If you like the way 'So & So'
>
> BTW many on this group are talented musicians who have paid and are
> paying very heavy dues of their own. I'm not one of them, but not
> everybody here is an "amateur guitar owner."
>I sure hope Clay does not read this post about amateur guitar players. H=
e could really go crazy on this one. A pro is someone who gets paid to pl=
ay. There are alot of Pros that get paid that cannot hold a case to a pla=
yer who takes a different career path. I have not played a gig in over a =
month but I have 2 students who gig every other day. I think playing for =
a living little to do with how good a player is, however most great playe=
rs do play for a living. I do not mean myself either because if I was bet=
ter I would probably try and play for a living.
> BTW#2 many who aren't pro players still aren't amateur owners. Some hav=
e
> owned many guitars so long I'd call them professional owners. Some even=
> build, sell, buy, trade, in addition to playing.
> =
> > How would you like to be John Pisano, someone who has a resume a mile=
> > long, with talent and experience to match, and read some lame comment=
> > about yourself, which has no basis in fact or reality?
> >
> First of all, these opinions do have a basis in reality. The first
> reality is listening. People on this group tend to talk about what
> they've listened to a lot. The second reality is that players are
> different. This will create the third reality, that of preferences. The=
> fourth reality is that many people express their preferences
> rhetorically as an an attribute of the player--they say "X is better"
> instead of saying "I like X better." I have found, though, that most on=
> this group has some very fine reasons for their preferences and often
> they do notice ways in which one player might do better than another on=
> a particular point.
> =
> John Pisano is a great man with a big heart and a good head on his
> shoulders. He probably would join in the talk and have a lot to offer
> everybody, and not have his ego as involved as you think he does, and a=
s
> you do.
> =
> > I'm beginning to think that some of your brains are made out of
> > plywood.
> =
> So what happened to your concern about the sorts of statements being
> made about other players? Plywood brains?
> =
> I'm strictly a solid top: brains of solid spruce. Don't think any
> better, but the sound when you hit it gets better every year.
> --
> //////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
> Lawson G. Stone=97Asbury Theological Seminary=97Wilmore, KY 40390
> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////
> "You know, a long time ago, being crazy meant something. Nowadays,
> everybody's crazy." Charles Manson
-- =
Mark Cleary makes music on the finest tools available,
"HOLLENBECK GUITARS" the finest handmade arch-top guitars.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <19970412172...@ladder01.news.aol.com> ige...@aol.com writes:
>Im Artikel <334F16...@pacbell.net>, Mezorro <mez...@pacbell.net> schreibt:
>>These are all fine musicians, who've devoted their lives to music, and
>>you amateur guitar owners come along and dismiss them, one at a time, as
>>'too this', or 'too that'.
Nobody has dismissed anyone. Different players have different strengths and
weaknesses, and interested listeners will compare and contrast. Fall off
your pedestal, man.
>I agree. I don't like to talk about good, better or even "bad" players. There
>might be people who do, but it's not the business of musicians, is it? I can
>only tell the players I like to listen to and can learn from. And then again,
>I can learn from almost everyone, even those I don't like particularly, no
>matter what kind of music they make. I've read those "my-man-is-better-than-
>your's" threads in other newsgroups and I've cancelled them all. It's boring.
Your complaint about the existence of these threads is pretty boring too.
This is a discussion group about jazz guitar. Some guys are discussing
jazz guitarists. If you don't like that thread, then start another one.
Don't whine; be productive!
>>I'm beginning to think that some of your brains are made out of
>>plywood.
I think it's a bit hypocritical to criticize the quality of discourse
in the newsgroup when your main intent seems to be to insult the
participants. Don't you have anything of substance to contribute?
Dr. Willie Yee
I've met John Pisano (at Joe Pass'
> funeral) and . . .
Ooops, I must really be out of it. When did Joe Pass die. Maybe I knew
this and forgot . . .
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Willie Kai Yee, M.D. Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers |
| 21 Tricor Ave. for Psychiatry |
| New Paltz, NY 12561-1927 wy...@mhv.net |
| (914) 255-0660 http://www1.mhv.net/~wyee/index.html |
+--"We are the universe trying to understand itself" - Minbari saying--+
CLAY MOORE
Dr. Willie Yee wrote:
>
> I've met John Pisano (at Joe Pass'
> > funeral) and . . .
>
> Ooops, I must really be out of it. When did Joe Pass die. Maybe I knew
> this and forgot . . .
Lawson will remember the exact date, but it was in the fall of '94. He
had been ill for some time with liver cancer.
--
Clay Moore
We are told that talent creates its own opportunities. Yet, it sometimes
seems that intense desire creates not only its own opportunities, but
its own talents as well. -Bruce Lee
Bill Scott
CLAY MOORE wrote:
> Lawson will remember the exact date, but it was in the fall of '94. He
> had been ill for some time with liver cancer.
Fall?
May 23, 1994, I think. I do know I was listening to his music at the time he died.
It was a shock to hear of his "passing" in the next day's news.
-Bill Scott
Lawson G. Stone
He died the same week Jackie Kennedy Onassis died.
What bugged me was that Kurt Cocaine blew himself away and got on the
cover of Newsweek. But what did Kurt Cocaine really stand for?
Addiction, alienation, rebellion. Joe Pass faced everything Kurt Cocaine
ever faced: drugs, relationships collapsing, poverty, crime (his own,
that is!) but somehow dug down and found the testicular fortitude, along
with help from good people, to overcome his addiction. He was won who
overcame, but never carried a chip on his shoulder.
For the last years of his life, Joe was striving to achieve
reconciliation among the various fragments of his family. He reconnected
with a child from his first marriage at great effort and expense. He
sought some kind of meaningful contact with his previous wife, and
treasured his current marriage deeply. He suffered from the cancer, but
lived with dignity until he died. I was told that, unconcious in the
hospital, he broke out into a big grin moments before dying.
Joe Pass got 10 lines in Newsweek.
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone—Asbury Theological Seminary—Wilmore, KY 40390
CLAY MOORE
Lawson G. Stone wrote:
> What bugged me was that Kurt Cocaine blew himself away and got on the
> cover of Newsweek. But what did Kurt Cocaine really stand for?
> Addiction, alienation, rebellion. Joe Pass faced everything Kurt Cocaine
> ever faced: drugs, relationships collapsing, poverty, crime (his own,
> that is!) but somehow dug down and found the testicular fortitude, along
> with help from good people, to overcome his addiction. He was won who
> overcame, but never carried a chip on his shoulder.
Believe me, the irony of that didn't pass me by. However, you forgot one
crisis that Kobain faced that Joe never had to deal with- being a
millionaire.
BillWynne2
In article <5j1s8f$1...@news.jhu.edu>, tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu ()
writes:
>>>I'm beginning to think that some of your brains are made out of
>>>plywood.
Actually, my brain is solid carved top. My guitar is plywood.
Karl G. Helmer
In
Article 15197 of rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz:
Lawson G. Stone <lst...@uky.campus.mci.net>
wrote:
>He died the same week Jackie Kennedy Onassis died.
>What bugged me was that Kurt Cocaine blew himself away and got on the
>cover of Newsweek. But what did Kurt Cocaine really stand for?
>Addiction, alienation, rebellion. Joe Pass faced everything Kurt Cocaine
>ever faced: drugs, relationships collapsing, poverty, crime (his own,
>that is!) but somehow dug down and found the testicular fortitude, along
>with help from good people, to overcome his addiction. He was won who
>overcame, but never carried a chip on his shoulder.
I think a little charity is in order here. I am no fan of Cobain's music
or lifestyle, but I would bet that Lawson knows basically nothing about
the guys life, etc. Maybe a bit of "Judge not lest ye be judged" etc.
is the better way to go. Ok,
so he played loud guitar, had a problem with
drugs, and killed himself. Change guitar to sax and you basically have
Charlie Parkers life (after all he basically did kill himself with drugs
and alcohol) too and no one is dumping on the myriad of guys that
followed Parkers path. So Cobain was famous. So what?
And yes, Joe straightened himself out. But he was still just a nice guy
(from all accounts that I've heard) who played guitar. And I know lots
of those.
Karl
Lawson G. Stone
CLAY MOORE wrote:
> =
> Lawson G. Stone wrote:
> =
> > What bugged me was that Kurt Cocaine blew himself away and got on the=
> > cover of Newsweek. But what did Kurt Cocaine really stand for?
> > Addiction, alienation, rebellion. Joe Pass faced everything Kurt Coca=
ine
> > ever faced: drugs, relationships collapsing, poverty, crime (his own,=
> > that is!) but somehow dug down and found the testicular fortitude, al=
ong
> > with help from good people, to overcome his addiction. He was won who=
> > overcame, but never carried a chip on his shoulder.
> =
> Believe me, the irony of that didn't pass me by. However, you forgot on=
e
> crisis that Kobain faced that Joe never had to deal with- being a
> millionaire.
> =
> --
> Clay Moore
> =
> We are told that talent creates its own opportunities. Yet, it sometime=
s
> seems that intense desire creates not only its own opportunities, but
> its own talents as well. -Bruce Lee
Yeah. Funny, Joe so often seemed to feel grateful for being able to make
a living playing the guitar. Grateful. Like it was something somebody
gave him, not something he did on his own and gave to us. He always
moved around and acted like a guy who was expecting the bouncer to come
throw him out--maybe a decade of looking over his shoulder for parole
officers, cops, etc. did that.
I have a feeling we haven't heard the last from Joe Pass.
-- =
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone=97Asbury Theological Seminary=97Wilmore, KY 40390
Lawson G. Stone
As I have said before, a solid spruce brain will sound better and better
with each passing year....
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone輸sbury Theological Seminary邑ilmore, KY 40390
yangsu
BillWynne2 wrote:
>
> In article <5j1s8f$1...@news.jhu.edu>, tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu ()
> writes:
>
> >>>I'm beginning to think that some of your brains are made out of
> >>>plywood.
>
> Actually, my brain is solid carved top. My guitar is plywood.
>
> Bill Wynne
> Guitarist
> Philadelphia
>
> E ho'omau ana i na mele Hawai'i ma Philadelphia nei...
>
> Bill Wynne Na Hanai Productions Philadelphia, PA
> http://members.aol.com/nahanai/index.html
So you are still wearing one of those moused out 80's cuts then?
I had a freind once, his solid caved toped didn't move an inch
even in 60 mph winds, it was very impressive live.
i.
Lawson G. Stone
Karl G. Helmer wrote:
>
> In
> Article 15197 of rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz:
> Lawson G. Stone <lst...@uky.campus.mci.net>
> wrote:
>
> >He died the same week Jackie Kennedy Onassis died.
>
> >What bugged me was that Kurt Cocaine blew himself away and got on the
> >cover of Newsweek. But what did Kurt Cocaine really stand for?
> >Addiction, alienation, rebellion. Joe Pass faced everything Kurt Cocaine
> >ever faced: drugs, relationships collapsing, poverty, crime (his own,
> >that is!) but somehow dug down and found the testicular fortitude, along
> >with help from good people, to overcome his addiction. He was won who
> >overcame, but never carried a chip on his shoulder.
>
> I think a little charity is in order here. I am no fan of Cobain's music
> or lifestyle, but I would bet that Lawson knows basically nothing about
> the guys life, etc. Maybe a bit of "Judge not lest ye be judged" etc.
> is the better way to go. Ok,
> so he played loud guitar, had a problem with
> drugs, and killed himself. Change guitar to sax and you basically have
> Charlie Parkers life (after all he basically did kill himself with drugs
> and alcohol) too and no one is dumping on the myriad of guys that
> followed Parkers path. So Cobain was famous. So what?
>
> And yes, Joe straightened himself out. But he was still just a nice guy
> (from all accounts that I've heard) who played guitar. And I know lots
> of those.
>
> Karl
I'll accept the criticism of my uncharitable words about Kurt Cobain. I
think I am still somewhat stung by the deafening neglect in the media of
musicians who offer the beauty of melody and harmony to the world, who
overcome unbelievable obstacles, and become a force for good somehow.
Kurt Cobain had the bad luck of being the foil for this perception.
One note. Karl writes:
> ... Change guitar to sax and you basically have
> Charlie Parkers life (after all he basically did kill himself with drugs
> and alcohol) too and no one is dumping on the myriad of guys that
> followed Parkers path. So Cobain was famous. So what?
You might have Charlie Parker's life, but you don't have Charlie
Parker's music. And I don't think you really have Bird's life. Suicide
is the tragic choice that a person makes to abandon the world, his or
her responsibility to it, and gamble on death being a better deal. I
have been close to many families that have experienced suicide, and in
every case it is an act intended to harm someone. They hope that in
their death they are "showing" others how wrong they were, or they are
expressing a profound rejection of others in their lives. Bird was an
addict. True. Bird had rotten relationships in his life. True. But Bird
somehow brought music out of that awful life that decades later still
thrills and delights. And Bird stayed on the job in his life without
jumping ship. I also doubt if Bird publicly advocated the kinds of
destructive attitudes and behavior that one gleans from Cocain's lyrics.
On that point I could be wrong because many of the jazz giants were
pretty rotten guys in their everyday lives. Still, recorded lyrics
become the script, the subtext, of the lives of the teenagers who hang
out in my community, and who end up following the example of their idol.
Criticism of inadequate analogies notwithstanding, I do regret the rash
and unkind words spoken of a player loved and respected by others on
this group.
I should also say that while I have gotten much mail calling me on my
attitude about Cocain, I have recieved NOT ONE SINGLE FLAME.
Now that's a classy group of people to hang out with because I realize
now I was asking for it.
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone—Asbury Theological Seminary—Wilmore, KY 40390
Lawson G. Stone
I wanted to ask around here if there was interest in a jazz guitar
mailing list. I might have a chance to set one up but wondered if there
was actually interest in such a list. Some of us barely have time to
read and post to the newsgroup and a mailing list might end up huring
the newsgroup. On the other hand, a mailing list is easier for some
people who have intermittent access to a news server.
I'd like to know what you all think of it. No point starting up
something if it isnt' going to help.
Thanks in advance.
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone輸sbury Theological Seminary邑ilmore, KY 40390
Catsswing
> >>>I'm beginning to think that some of your brains are made out of
> >>>plywood.
>
> Actually, my brain is solid carved top.
Does you're head have a 17 inch bout?
Venetian or Florentine cutaway?
Roger D. Placer
> But Bird somehow brought music out of that awful life that decades later
> still thrills and delights.
> I also doubt if Bird publicly advocated the kinds of
> destructive attitudes and behavior that one gleans from Cocain's lyrics.
While I bemoan the loss of Joe Pass - not to mention Parker, etc. - more
than that of Kurt Cobain, I think you're missing something. You're clearly
judging the importance of each loss on YOUR perception of the VALUE of the
CONTENT of each one's art. Whether you appreciate it or not, much of
Nirvana's music is pretty powerful stuff - enough to have played a pivotal
role in paving a new direction for modern rock music. Sound like Parker
and his role in shaping bebop...? Any artist who manages to overcome the
din and appeal powerfully to thousands of listeners - be they erudite
jazzers or disillusioned adolescent rockers - must have something pretty
important or meaningful to say, period.
So what we have here is a condemnation of the symbolism, values, and
sentiments portrayed in Cobain's music, and that's your right. However,
his music does indeed thrill - and delight (although that wouldn't be
my fave choice of words) - many listeners, just as Parker's music does
for other listeners. Hell, there's even a superset of listeners that
enjoy BOTH artists' music!
The long and short of it is that each man moved (and moves) many people -
different types of people perhaps - in different ways, with a different vibe,
and at a different time. Both had something unique to say, and the loss of
either is just that, a loss - an event that diminishes the richness of our
world.
Roger
BillWynne2
In article <19970424112...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
cats...@aol.com (Catsswing) writes:
>Does you're head have a 17 inch bout?
>Venetian or Florentine cutaway?
I thought I could take a joke as far as it could possibly go. But you
people are insane.
I feel right at home here...
Bill Wynne
BillWynne2
In article <335B71...@uky.campus.mci.net>, "Lawson G. Stone"
<lst...@uky.campus.mci.net> writes:
>For the last years of his life, Joe was striving to achieve
>reconciliation among the various fragments of his family. He reconnected
>with a child from his first marriage at great effort and expense. He
>sought some kind of meaningful contact with his previous wife, and
>treasured his current marriage deeply. He suffered from the cancer, but
>lived with dignity until he died. I was told that, unconcious in the
>hospital, he broke out into a big grin moments before dying.
>
>Joe Pass got 10 lines in Newsweek.
I learned of Joe's passing LONG after he left us. I was so out of touch.
There were times in my life when all I wanted to be was Joe. When you
learn about the man, though, and his life, I realize now that I really
only wished I was 1/10 as talented, yet have the same life I have now.
Does anyone know how Barney Kessel is doing? He hasn't passed away?
(Please say "no.") I spoke at length to Tal Farlow at one of his
appearances in my town. He was filling in with the Great Guitars (Byrd,
Ellis) because of Barney's illness. He said Barney would probably never
play again. Please tell me this isn't true.
Bill Wynne
Guitarist
Philadelphia
Jim Kroger
Yeah, Lawson, do it.
Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
Mirroring the newsgroup with a mailing list might be a better solution
than creating two distinct and separate venues. This particular ng
is not exactly flooded with posts, so I don't a need to divide the
discussion into any smaller bits. But if a list mirror could bring
in new folks or make reading more convenient for those already here,
then it might be useful.
Roger D. Placer
> Mirroring the newsgroup with a mailing list might be a better solution
> than creating two distinct and separate venues.
I agree. I personally dislike lists because the messages clog my mailbox,
and I'm forced to sit there waiting for them to download, then sift thru
them looking for relevant personal/work email. The newsgroup gives you a
chance to filter articles yourself; I find it much more useful. Sorry...
Roger
Mezorro
Joe Pass
Joseph Anthony Passalaqua
Born January 13, 1929 - New Jersey
Passed Away May 23, 1994 - California
Service was in a church in Woodland Hills/Tarzana area.
Mark Cleary
silence and no post. He was very special and only wish I could have told
him I named my son after him, it is almost unreal in that I am now
listening to a new release of his with his older Pacific Jazz
recordings as I write this.
--
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <335CCE...@uky.campus.mci.net> lst...@uky.campus.mci.net writes:
>
>I have a feeling we haven't heard the last from Joe Pass.
Let's just hope his zombie doesn't crawl out of the grave
and roam the back roads looking to decapitate everyone
who ever stole his licks.
BillWynne2
>I would suggest on May, 23 1997 this newsgroup honor Joe with a day of
>silence and no post. He was very special and only wish I could have told
>him I named my son after him, it is almost unreal in that I am now
>listening to a new release of his with his older Pacific Jazz
>recordings as I write this.
Mark -
I second the motion on a day of silence.
Tell us more about this recording. Is this a reissue or previously
unreleased?
Giri Iyengar
In article <19970429174...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, billw...@aol.com (BillWynne2) writes:
> >I would suggest on May, 23 1997 this newsgroup honor Joe with a day of
> >silence and no post.
Why is silence always considered an honor? Would Joe have liked it if we
all shut up on that day? I don't get this. I'd rather honor him by telling
everyone to go transcribe some Pass tune, lick, riff, chord solo, whatever,
and share the results with us. Or just make it a point to listen to a Pass
album and think about the music a little. Maybe, if you have a gig that day,
you could tell your audience about him. If not, tell your wife, kids, parents, anyone you know who may not know about him. This whole silence thing is silly.
..Giri
JFOG10
yes...would enjoy a list that could be digested....the quality of this
group has deteriorated , due to spam.......
--JIM--
Disclaimer:The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the author.He probably just made them up to try and sound like he knows what he's talking about.Or to just plain annoy you.
Frank Coffman
Giri Iyengar <giye...@aec004.ve.ford.com> wrote:
> In article <19970429174...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, billw...@aol.com (BillWynne2) writes:
> > >I would suggest on May, 23 1997 this newsgroup honor Joe with a day of
> > >silence and no post.
> ...This whole silence thing is silly.
Especially when the title of the thread has nothing to do with Joe Pass
--
--
Frank Coffman |FAA Technical Center, ACT-510 ATC Simulations
fra...@tgf.tc.faa.gov |Atlantic City Int'l Airport, NJ 08405
Lawson G. Stone
BillWynne2 wrote:
>
> >I would suggest on May, 23 1997 this newsgroup honor Joe with a day of
> >silence and no post. He was very special and only wish I could have told
> >him I named my son after him, it is almost unreal in that I am now
> >listening to a new release of his with his older Pacific Jazz
> >recordings as I write this.
>
> Mark -
>
> I second the motion on a day of silence.
>
> Tell us more about this recording. Is this a reissue or previously
> unreleased?
The new compilation is on Pacific Jazz and has 16 tracks, all from
1961-1963. Material comes from "For Django," "Sounds of Synanon,"
"Momemt of Truth (w. Gerald Wilson)," "12-String Guitar Movie Themes"
(Hey, he had to earn a living!), "Something Special (w. Groove Holmes),
and "Catch Me." They are pretty well chosen tracks, though I wish we'd
had one from "Stones Jazz!"
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone—Asbury Theological Seminary—Wilmore, KY 40390