Looking at some of Coltrane's Changes

Virtual Vin

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Mar 16, 2003, 12:11:21 AM3/16/03

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Hi,
I am just looking over something called a 4 bar - 2,5,1,1 progression.
I got this with "Band In A Box" and I printed it out and went to analyzing
it...
The main changes go like this:

Dm7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 B7 | E6 G7 | Cmaj7 :]

I was just hoping to get some opinions on how you guys each look at
playing over these changes as they back cyle around the circle of fifths,
moving up a perfect fourth every eight bars. So Dm7 becomes Gm7, Eb7 becomes
Ab7...etc etc. I'd like to just say what I am thinking about it and then
maybe stand corrected or just hear what you real jazz masters might do in
this situation. <wink>

My tendency (is to panic) is to follow each chord change and arpeggiate
the chords (or closely related arps) but I know this is a fools game cause I
just can't think that fast. What I know I should do is look at the changes
up front, determine a few common key centers to "little sections" of the
entire four bar progression (ala SuperChops) and play from that point of
view, but here is where I run into a problem. But evertime I try to simplify
this progression down to a few key centers my mind just goes nuclear and
explodes...

1) Eb7 and the Abmaj7 fit into a "Ab key center" but the Dmin7 blows my
mind.
What do I do with that Dmin7? That's like a C-thing...

As the progression comes around thru the 4th and 5th bars of each
turnaround
I can see playing in "C or G7 or D-dorian, etc, etc," over the G7 |
Cmaj :] Dmin7.

2) So would you think like,
Dmin for two beats...
Abmaj-type keys for 4 beats
Then "Emaj modes" over the B7 | E6
then think C-type keys over G7 and Cmaj7
BTW (I think in modes, So G7 and Cmaj
are the same to me... when solo'ing)

So do you just think:

C-->Abmaj-->Emaj--> C---? then jump a 4th?

3) So you got this oddball Dm7 that connects to the last two chords 1
time
And then NEXT time you treat the first two beats separately?
The rest of the time you play Ab into E into C?

Then jump a perfect 4th and do the whole thing again? and again? and
again?

you get the idea...

Any ideas?
I'd love to hear how you pro's approach this little ditty...

P.S. I don't understand how they call it the 2-5-1-1 either...
i see a lot of "V to the I" but where is the II chord?

WHERE'S THE BEEF?

Virtual Vin
v!

www.sargenti.org

Jurupari

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Mar 16, 2003, 12:42:13 AM3/16/03

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>Dm7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 B7 | E6 G7 | Cmaj7 :]

Quick 'n' doity:

rearrange like this:

>Dm7 (2 of C)

Play triads C Am Em G avoid F

Eb7 | Abmaj7 is Abmaj Play Fm Ab Cm Eb avoid the note Db (all notes of Ab
scale but Db)

B7 | E6 is E major Play E C#m G#m B and avoid A (All notes of E scale except
A)

G7 | Cmaj7 :] 5 of C Cmajor Play Am G Em or C and again, avoid F.

This is three major scales, but making each only six tones instead of seven.
Each time, avoid the 4th tone. This is the one that stands out and sounds bad
if you play it on the tonic chords (C, E and Ab) so leaving it out eliminates
the problem.

If you start out working this way with the song, the lines will sound sort of
exotic by playing different minors and 1 instead of doing a 5 to 1 close in
each key. You can play the majors and minors in any order and they will sound
different but good.

There are plenty of other things you can do, but this generates pretty good
lines just by staying in the tonic of each key.

Start really slow with biab, and see what happens.

Have fun!

Clif Kuplen

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 16, 2003, 2:31:05 AM3/16/03

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Virtual Vin wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I am just looking over something called a 4 bar - 2,5,1,1 progression.
> I got this with "Band In A Box" and I printed it out and went to analyzing
> it...
> The main changes go like this:
>
> Dm7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 B7 | E6 G7 | Cmaj7 :]
>
> I was just hoping to get some opinions on how you guys each look at
> playing over these changes as they back cyle around the circle of fifths,
> moving up a perfect fourth every eight bars. So Dm7 becomes Gm7, Eb7 becomes
> Ab7...etc etc. I'd like to just say what I am thinking about it and then
> maybe stand corrected or just hear what you real jazz masters might do in
> this situation. <wink>
>
> My tendency (is to panic) is to follow each chord change and arpeggiate
> the chords (or closely related arps) but I know this is a fools game cause I
> just can't think that fast.

That's exactly what you need to do so start working at it now.

That use of 'Coltrane changes' is as a reharmonization of the much
simpler progression:

Dm7 / / / |G7 / / / |Cmaj7 / / / | / / / / |

The Coltrane changes work by dividing the octave into 3 equal divisions
and 3 keys (C-Ab-E). Each of the 3 tonic chords is preceeded by its own
V7. This is known as a multi tonic system. It's as if you're playing in
3 keys at the same time that all operate as a single key.

Dm7 / / / |G7 / / / |Cmaj7 / / / | / / / / |
becomes
Dm7 Eb7 |Ab B7 |E G7 |C / / / |

Coltrane sometimes took tunes that originally had the simple II V I
progression and reharmonized them with his cycle. He often wrote his own
tune around the new changes. He would also superimpose the cycle over a
rhythm section playing the normal II V I progression.

The best way to play through this cycle clearly is to clearly outline
all of the chords involved, i.e. with chord tone melodies or melodies
that blatantly emphasize notes in the chords. Arpeggios are a good start.

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
<joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>

Keith Freeman

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Mar 16, 2003, 11:12:19 AM3/16/03

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> This is known as a multi tonic system. It's as if you're playing in
> 3 keys at the same time that all operate as a single key.

That's a neat way of looking at it Joey, I've never seen it explained quite
that way before. Gives me some ideas on practising!

-Keith

Joe Finn

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Mar 16, 2003, 11:32:59 AM3/16/03

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"Virtual Vin" <H...@HowAreYou.com> wrote

>
> Any ideas?
> I'd love to hear how you pro's approach this little ditty...
>

Coltrane himself would arpeggiate the chords a lot in his improv. His 1 2 3
5 lick is typical beginning on the root of any give chord. Brecker's way of
playing Coltrane changes is much more chromatic. When I was first getting
into this kind of playing I listened to various recordings of Coltrane's
tunes by people like Freddie Hubbard, James Moody, and Arturo Sandoval.
Listening to Nick Brignola and Jimmy Bruno helped a lot too.

I was playing Giant Steps on the job last night with a sax player named Eric
Walentowitz who wrote a new head for the changes called Tri-color. That's an
apt title because it represents the three distinct areas of tonality that
the chords imply.

Practicing with biab at slow tempi is the way to get started. Good luck.
........joe

--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net

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Rick Del Savio

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Mar 16, 2003, 1:11:19 PM3/16/03

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For more analysis of Giant Steps try rod Furlotts site here;
http://home1.gte.net/furlott/coltrane.htm Funny thing, IIRC I used to
type in
www.rodfurlott.com and would get sent right to his site. What's
happenin' Rod.

--
Jazz Guitarist/Educator
Check out lessons and original music @
http://www.rickdelsavio.com

Virtual Vin

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Mar 16, 2003, 2:20:39 PM3/16/03

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"Joey Goldstein" <>

> That's exactly what you need to do so start working at it now.

------

But when you start the tune at 230bpm...
I just get lost after about 8 bars...

LOL!

I feel like I'd like to simplify and fortunately you helped with below...

excellent reply, BTW!
Very, very helpful!

------

> That use of 'Coltrane changes' is as a reharmonization of the much
> simpler progression:
>
> Dm7 / / / |G7 / / / |Cmaj7 / / / | / / / / |

------

But ... but... but....
That's just C!

could it be..???

------

>
> The Coltrane changes work by dividing the octave into 3 equal divisions
> and 3 keys (C-Ab-E). Each of the 3 tonic chords is preceeded by its own
> V7. This is known as a multi tonic system. It's as if you're playing in
> 3 keys at the same time that all operate as a single key.
>
> Dm7 / / / |G7 / / / |Cmaj7 / / / | / / / / |
> becomes
> Dm7 Eb7 |Ab B7 |E G7 |C / / / |

-------

Holy mother of god, man!
You're right!

You pro's are sick people!
How on god's green earth did you learn that?

Who have you been visiting when your wife was away!?

------

>
> Coltrane sometimes took tunes that originally had the simple II V I
> progression and reharmonized them with his cycle. He often wrote his own
> tune around the new changes. He would also superimpose the cycle over a
> rhythm section playing the normal II V I progression.
>
> The best way to play through this cycle clearly is to clearly outline
> all of the chords involved, i.e. with chord tone melodies or melodies
> that blatantly emphasize notes in the chords. Arpeggios are a good start.

------

Joey, you're sick, man...
You really need help...
Cause if you understand this kind of thing...
there is just no help for you...

You are terminally hip, dude!

I tried Amin over the entire thing (first 8 bars) and it actually didn't
sound half bad...
I actually came up with an original melody using only the notes of Am
(Cmaj)
that sounded decent. I'd imagine that if I move the key center every 8 bars
from Am to Dmin to Gmin to Cmin to Fmin etc. etc. this tune would get hella
easier to play, huh?

Is that over simplified?

It's like you took the whle thing and broke it down to one key...
that moves a fouth every eight bars...

Is that how you think about playing over this?
It's just a " ii, V, I " in C?

v!

Virtual Vin

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Mar 16, 2003, 2:41:20 PM3/16/03

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"Rick Del Savio"

> For more analysis of Giant Steps try rod Furlotts site here;
> http://home1.gte.net/furlott/coltrane.htm

You know,
I knew you guys were good but sheesh! When you start making sense of
"Giant Steps" and doing it in a way that I even understand what you're
talking about, now you've really crossed the line... I thought I was safe in
my ignorance, now I find myself typing the changes to "Giant Steps" into
Band In A Box and having a go at it...

You guys have ruined my life...

I never should have come here...

Now I am going to spend every waking hour trying to actually get my mind
completely around what you're talking about and even worse...
Now I am actually trying to play this stuff without sounding like an
idiot...

You guys are too much...!

;o)

Thank you very much!

v!

Joe Finn

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Mar 16, 2003, 3:05:39 PM3/16/03

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"Virtual Vin" <H...@HowAreYou.com> wrote

> I knew you guys were good but sheesh! When you start making sense of
> "Giant Steps" and doing it in a way that I even understand what you're
> talking about, now you've really crossed the line... I thought I was safe
in
> my ignorance, now I find myself typing the changes to "Giant Steps" into
> Band In A Box and having a go at it...
>
>
> You guys have ruined my life...

What are friends for? ......joe

Rick Del Savio

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Mar 16, 2003, 3:33:38 PM3/16/03

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Hi VV. This is an awesome n/g ain't it? :D Rick

--

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 16, 2003, 6:18:15 PM3/16/03

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I thout I just did. <g>

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 16, 2003, 6:21:35 PM3/16/03

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Tom Lippincott's article about GS is quite good.

<http://tomlippincott.com/articlesframe.cfm>

--

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 16, 2003, 6:22:18 PM3/16/03

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Virtual Vin wrote:
>
> "Joey Goldstein" <>
> > That's exactly what you need to do so start working at it now.
>
> ------
>
> But when you start the tune at 230bpm...
> I just get lost after about 8 bars...

Duh....Slow down? <g>

--

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 16, 2003, 6:34:35 PM3/16/03

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No. But when it's just ii V I in C might think of the GS changes
instead. It sounds out there but it works because it is organized. It
has what I like to call 'intervallic unity'.

If the rhythm section is really playing the GS changes though most guys
would just outline those changes.

I don't see the keys cahnging in 4ths btw. They move down a major 3rd
each time. 3 keys, each a maj 3rd apart.
C-Ab-E like an augmented triad. Splits the octave into 3 equal divisions.

If you insist on using scales on this tune then the scales to use are C
major, Ab major and E major.

C maj.. Ab maj..... E maj ... C maj .........
Dm7 Eb7 |Abmaj7 B7 |Emaj7 G7 |Cmaj7 / / / |

Here's an easy way to get started with pentatonics.

F maj pent Eb maj pent.... B maj pent... G maj pent.........
Dm7 / Eb7 / |Abmaj7 / B7 / |Emaj7 / G7 / |Cmaj7 / / / |

Note: F maj pent and Dmin pent are the same scale. Ditto for Eb maj pent
and C min pent as well as B maj pent and G#min pent.

or
F pent Eb pent Ab pent B pent E pent G pent C pent
Dm7 Eb7 |Abmaj7 B7 |Emaj7 G7 |Cmaj7 / / / |

An easy subset of the maj pentatonic scale (1 2 3 5 6) is just 1 2 3 5.

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 16, 2003, 6:51:37 PM3/16/03

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Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> Keith Freeman wrote:
> >
> > > This is known as a multi tonic system. It's as if you're playing in
> > > 3 keys at the same time that all operate as a single key.
> > That's a neat way of looking at it Joey, I've never seen it explained quite
> > that way before. Gives me some ideas on practising!
> >
> > -Keith
>
> I thout I just did. <g>

Ooops. I thought were asking for ideas on practicing. Looks like you've
got your own. .... Carry on. Don't mind me.

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 16, 2003, 7:03:50 PM3/16/03

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Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >
> > Keith Freeman wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is known as a multi tonic system. It's as if you're playing in
> > > > 3 keys at the same time that all operate as a single key.
> > > That's a neat way of looking at it Joey, I've never seen it explained quite
> > > that way before. Gives me some ideas on practising!
> > >
> > > -Keith
> >
> > I thout I just did. <g>
>
> Ooops. I thought were asking for ideas on practicing. Looks like you've
> got your own. .... Carry on. Don't mind me.

But a good way to start is with guide tone lines, as always.

Here's the GS ii V I prog voice led in close voice chords:

Dm7 Eb7 |Abmaj7 B7 |Emaj7 G7 |Cmaj7

C Db C B---B-----B---B
A Bb Ab A G# G---G
F G----G F# E F E
D Eb---Eb-----D#--D# D C

Learn each guide tone line as if it is a simple melody and then begin to
embellish or decorate it. Embellish the rhythms first. Then look for
neighbor tones etc. Embellish these melodies the same way that an early
jazz player might have embellished a march, like when the Saints Go
Marchin' In.

Once you know the sound of all those lines feels free to jump from one
to the other, etc. at the point of the chord changes the lines that are
made up from common tones do not give the ears as much information that
a chord change has occurred so concentrate on the lines that move by
step or 1/2 step. Here's a compositie line that jumps around in order to
have 1/2 steps at the chord change:

Dm7 Eb7 |Abmaj7 B7 |Emaj7 G7 |Cmaj7

D Eb Db C B A G# G F E

Learn this line like a simple melody and embellish to taste. Etc.

Virtual Vin

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Mar 16, 2003, 9:46:21 PM3/16/03

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"Joey Goldstein" >

>
> I don't see the keys cahnging in 4ths btw. They move down a major 3rd
> each time. 3 keys, each a maj 3rd apart.
> C-Ab-E like an augmented triad. Splits the octave into 3 equal divisions.

Hi joey,
the changes I was speaking of were:

when I refer to the key center moving or back cycling in 4ths
I mean the movement that occurs every 8 bars...

the 8 bars are basically transposed in what(?)
a up a fourth? down a fifth?

I understand what you mean about the C-Ab-E
and how that splits the octave into three major 3rds...

this was all very enlightening for me...
and i appreciate you taking the time to respond to my query...

>
> If you insist on using scales on this tune then the scales to use are C
> major, Ab major and E major.
>
> C maj.. Ab maj..... E maj ... C maj .........
> Dm7 Eb7 |Abmaj7 B7 |Emaj7 G7 |Cmaj7 / / / |

I don't insist on using anything in particular...
Just wanted to talk about this subject ad find out how others approach it...
I was just saying that i tend to think modally at the present time,
unless I think in arpeggiating the chords I am playing over.
So if it's C I might arpegiate a G7, a Am7 or a Dmin9

>
> Here's an easy way to get started with pentatonics.
>
> F maj pent Eb maj pent.... B maj pent... G maj pent.........
> Dm7 / Eb7 / |Abmaj7 / B7 / |Emaj7 / G7 / |Cmaj7 / / / |
>
> Note: F maj pent and Dmin pent are the same scale. Ditto for Eb maj pent
> and C min pent as well as B maj pent and G#min pent.

Yeah I had played around with something like this last night as
I discovered that the various minor pentatonics worked nicely over this.

>
> or
> F pent Eb pent Ab pent B pent E pent G pent C pent
> Dm7 Eb7 |Abmaj7 B7 |Emaj7 G7 |Cmaj7 / / / |
>
> An easy subset of the maj pentatonic scale (1 2 3 5 6) is just 1 2 3 5.

I like this approach a lot, Joey

you can pretty much just fly all over the neck playing the same 4 note or 5
note patterns...
(we won't call them scales then, ;o)

kind of like playing arps but who cares what the hell you call 'em if they
sound good over the chords
and i don't hear any real clams, so this approach must be working out all
right...

it's all a real big help, bro

thanks for your ideas!

vincent

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 16, 2003, 11:40:36 PM3/16/03

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OK. So what tune is it?

--

Virtual Vin

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Mar 17, 2003, 1:53:27 AM3/17/03

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"Joey Goldstein"

> > the 8 bars are basically transposed in what(?)
> > a up a fourth? down a fifth?
>
> OK. So what tune is it?

Well,
Like I said in my first post, it's just something that came along with
"Band In A Box" it's a tune in the JAZZPRAC directory called " 'Trane
Reharmonization of 4 bar 2,5,1,1, progression. Swing." So you guys picked up
right away that it was a reharmonization. I couldn't for the life of me see
the 2,5,1,1 till you pointed it out! HAHAHA! I didn't find the progression
directly in any one specific Coltrane tune unless the Band in a Box people
did.

Now that I am on a Coltrane kick though I will have to look more deeply
and directly at his written changes and his composing style. I bookmarked
all the webpages you guys pointed me too and am studying them very
carefully. I spent the whole day working out Giant Steps and I think I am
actally starting to make some progress with actually being able to play it!
I have a working practice file I built in Cubase so I can just turn on the
changes and play over them at whatever metronome speed I want. Bass, Drums,
Piano and me...LOL!

But this progression we were looking at on this thread was just a freaky
set of chords, for me, and I wanted to understand the relationships better
and now I do. So thank you, Joey. I really appreciate you sharing your
ideas about this whole thing... I'm finding this approach proves itself true
by working very nicely where the rubber meets the road.

THANKS!
v!

Joey Goldstein

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Mar 17, 2003, 10:01:43 AM3/17/03

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Virtual Vin wrote:
>
> "Joey Goldstein"
>
> > > the 8 bars are basically transposed in what(?)
> > > a up a fourth? down a fifth?
> >
> > OK. So what tune is it?
>
> Well,
> Like I said in my first post, it's just something that came along with
> "Band In A Box" it's a tune in the JAZZPRAC directory called " 'Trane
> Reharmonization of 4 bar 2,5,1,1, progression. Swing."

Ah, I see. It's just an exercise. Coltarne changes through the cycle of 5ths.

> So you guys picked up
> right away that it was a reharmonization. I couldn't for the life of me see
> the 2,5,1,1 till you pointed it out! HAHAHA! I didn't find the progression
> directly in any one specific Coltrane tune unless the Band in a Box people
> did.
>
> Now that I am on a Coltrane kick though I will have to look more deeply
> and directly at his written changes and his composing style.

Checkout the Giant Steps album and Coltrane's Sound. There's a nice
version of Body And Soul on the latter that uses the Coltrane changes.
Countown is Trane's version of Tune Up. 26-2 is his version of Confirmation.

> I bookmarked
> all the webpages you guys pointed me too and am studying them very
> carefully. I spent the whole day working out Giant Steps and I think I am
> actally starting to make some progress with actually being able to play it!
> I have a working practice file I built in Cubase so I can just turn on the
> changes and play over them at whatever metronome speed I want. Bass, Drums,
> Piano and me...LOL!
>
> But this progression we were looking at on this thread was just a freaky
> set of chords, for me, and I wanted to understand the relationships better
> and now I do. So thank you, Joey. I really appreciate you sharing your
> ideas about this whole thing... I'm finding this approach proves itself true
> by working very nicely where the rubber meets the road.
>
> THANKS!
> v!

--