Holiday Inn - Irving Berlin couldn't read music
oasysco
and Fred Astaire. This is a very entertaining movie with some very
funny parts like the Washingont's Birthday dance scene (won't spol it,
if you haven't seen it).
Anyway, commercial breaks were peppered with factids like Iriving
Berlin couldn't read or write music and that he could only play the
black keys on a piano. Yet, he went on to write White Christmas, Gob
Bless America, and on and on.
Another factoid was that as a result of writing one tune for a
particular season (I think Easter and the Easter Bonnet song - that's
not its real title), he decided to write a tune for each holiday,
eventually writing White Christmas.
Though I've seen it before, it's still interesting to note that for
some folks, natural music talent has nothing to do with proficiency on
an instrument or reading/writing music.
Anyway, great movie; lots of funny parts; great interaction between the
2 top stars, and some decent music.
Greg
Tom Walls
wilder...@yahoo.com says...
> natural music talent has nothing to do with proficiency on
> an instrument or reading/writing music.
>
>
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
mws...@insightbb.com
about his only being able to play piano in the key of F#. Eventually he
had a special piano made with a lever (like a linear gearshift) that
would move all the strings back and forth so he could transpose while
only playing in F# on the keyboard! Wow.
Mark Smart
http://www.marksmart.net
markr
He was incredibly prolific; the guy wrote hundreds of tunes. He had a
lot of natural born talent and he worked real hard too.
jlw...@ev1.net
> some folks, natural music talent has nothing to do with proficiency on
> an instrument or reading/writing music.
While technically true, very little help for us mortals. I think if
you are not already Irving Berlin, you could probably use the tools
that come with theory and practice. I know I could. Of course, I am
lazy, which is not helpful.
Adam Gottschalk
"markr" <jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> He was incredibly prolific; the guy wrote hundreds of tunes. He had a
> lot of natural born talent and he worked real hard too.
>
In my book, a man's prolific output means zilch if the contents of that
output are so-so (or worse) and/or revered for the wrong reasons. I
certainly wouldn't think or say that of Berlin. But Dylan is a very good
example of zilch IMNSHO :-) A poet named WS Merwin is another good
example, incredibly prolific, getting his name _everywhere_, but never
with a thing that's really vey heavy or deep.
I heard an NPR program in recent years where Jon Hendricks said he
couldn't read music. Every musician I've ever shared that with has
refused to believe it.
tomb...@jhu.edu
His working process was to write his melodies on that keyboard. Then he
hired guys to harmonize them for him. He wasn't so good at that. But
most of Berlin's best songs have melodies so strong that it is very
easy to find the right chords.
kitekrazy
B&W movie that had to rely on a good script instead of special effects.
Thank God they didn't colorize it.
Norm K
myself that nothing says "Holiday Spirt" better than an agnostic
playing Christmas music written by a Jewish guy.
Berlin really was a genius. I haven't seen Holiday Inn in many years
but never get tired of watching White Christmas. There's a cast party
scene ("The best things happen when you're dancing") where a small band
has a guy playing a big ol' orchestral archtop. Never could tell what
kind it was. Didn't recognize the player either.
Norm
oasysco
scene ("The best things happen when you're dancing") where a small band
has a guy playing a big ol' orchestral archtop. Never could tell what
kind it was. Didn't recognize the player either. ]
In Holiday Inn, there a guitarist. Looks like an Epiphone to me. in any
xase, you can't hear him since the arrangements were mostly strings and
horn.
Greg
bob r
theka...@verizon.net wrote on 12/5/05 9:53 PM:
> I was playing White Christmas at a solo gig last week and thought to
> myself that nothing says "Holiday Spirt" better than an agnostic
> playing Christmas music written by a Jewish guy.
Damn, that's beautiful, Norm. (sniff)
--
Bob Russell
Web - http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CDs - http://www.cdbaby.com/all/bobrussell
Soundclick - http://www.soundclick.com/bobrussell
......joe
>
> Anyway, commercial breaks were peppered with factids like Iriving
> Berlin couldn't read or write music
Greg: That's just the sort of oversimplified thing they love to throw
at you
just before the McDonald's spot. It's nonsense really. Saying Berlin
couldn't write music is like saying the beatles couldn't write music.
Reading is another matter. Berlin evidently didn't read but this is not
uncommon among popular song writers. Songwriting and composition in
general
does not require or presuppose the ability to read at a studio level.
These
are two very different skill sets.
> and that he could only play the
> black keys on a piano.
Berlin played what is known as a transposing piano. This instrument can
change keys mechanically by means of a lever. This is not unlike what
pop
songwriters do in Nashville and elsewhere today by relying on a capo to
play
the guitar in different keys using very basic fingerings.
> Yet, he went on to write White Christmas, God
> Bless America, and on and on.
He worked as a lyricist initially. The actual tunes came a bit later.
His
total output was around 1500 songs. Though not as sophisticated as the
Gershinws and not as eloquent as Porter, Berlin had a kind of
simplicity
that spoke directly to the heart of things. It still does. His White
Christmas was the biggest selling song of all time.
The thing that bothers me about saying "Berlin couldn't read music" is
that
it is dismissive of what he accomplished. His achievements are
monumental.
The implication that someone else who "can't read music" might somehow
duplicate his feats is only a little less troublesome.
It would be hard overstate the influence he had back in the 40's and
50's.
But like the pop icons of other eras, Berlin's style eventually lost
it's
luster. He was scandalized and disgusted when Presley sang White
Christmas
but at this point Elvis was a rising star and Berlin's popularity was
fading
fast.
Maybe he had the last laugh though. Berlin was 101 when he died in 1989
and
was worth millions upon millions. Imagine the money he would have made
had he
decided to license things like Blue Skies, Always, Puttin' on the Ritz,
and
Cheek to Cheek. He never allowed those tunes to be used for commercial
purposes. They say he was very protective or even paranoid about this
kind
of thing in his later years. ......joe
Jon Fox
news:1133837639.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I was playing White Christmas at a solo gig last week and thought to
> myself that nothing says "Holiday Spirt" better than an agnostic
> playing Christmas music written by a Jewish guy.
> Norm
>
I love that!!! White Christmas is part of my solo repertoire during the
season as well, I'll have to remember this quote as I play it next time....
Jon
--
Tom Walls
ad...@adamgottschalk.net says...
> But Dylan is a very good
> example of zilch IMNSHO :-)
>
pmfan57
Wes couldn't even read chord symbols, from what I understand.
Mike C.
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.net> wrote in message
news:adam-A5D95E.1...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
I can't believe I've actually found someone else who shares this opinion. I
was once with a girlfriend who was heavy into poetry, was a writer, and now
teaches at the college level, who agreed that Dylan was far from a great
poet. I don't know what she thinks about him now, but I'm very unimpressed
with him, as well.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
Teaching: http://findmeateacher.com/contact.php?id=1107
"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I
sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking
and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way."
- Jack Handey
Dan Adler
I find that particular piece of folklore very hard to believe. Given
that he knew all the chords and extensions already, and given that he
had the intellect to figure out all of jazz harmony and theory on his
own, it would have taken him less than an hour to master enough chord
notation to play any chart you could hand him.
pmfan57
I always found it terribly hard to believe as well. But I have read it
in more than one place. If you said, "Gm7b5" he supposedly didn't know
what that was. Of course the second he heard it, he would know and be
able to whip out every inversion all over the neck.
Maybe that wasn't true. One of our contributors knew him. I forgot
who.
Joe
LarryV
Charlie Christian solos. He got gigs where he would play the solos and
then sit out. Eventually he got hired for the Club 440 and said the
guys in the band helped him a lot with tunes, intros, endings. It
wasn't until very late in his career that he learned to read music.
Keith Freeman
> what that was.
the bass.
-Keith
Portable Changes, tips etc. at http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
e-mail only to keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl
Joey Goldstein
F# but he would have had to use the white keys every once and a while to
write White Christmas from that angle.
It's actually an interesting approach.
The black keys make up the F# maj pent scale. The maj pent scale is one
of the strongest sounds in music. It has no prime dissonance in it, i.e.
no min 2nds, tritones, maj 7ths or min 9ths. The most dissonannt
interval it contains is the maj 2nd/min 7th/maj 9th. This makes it so
that melodies comprised of the notes of a maj pent scale are usually
very easy to sing and to hear for the layman. An approach to melody that
used the notes of F# maj pent as the focus with only occasional use of
the white keys, as approach notes, could result in some very strong,
very singable, and easy to remember melodies.
One of the hallmarks of many of those Tin-Pan-Alley days tunes is that
the melodies are often almost entirely diatonic. Most chromaticism comes
in with the chording, not the melody. So Berlin could write very simple
singable catchy melodies with interesting rhythms and hire others to
harmonize them.
If this "everything in F# thing" is really true then for any tunes he
wrote that changed key he must have used that piano of his with the
transposing lever.
Interesting.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
pmfan57
I meant any name for any chord. You're right that I should have picked
a different example, because of what you said.
pmfan57
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> One of the hallmarks of many of those Tin-Pan-Alley days tunes is that
> the melodies are often almost entirely diatonic. Most chromaticism comes
> in with the chording, not the melody. So Berlin could write very simple
> singable catchy melodies with interesting rhythms and hire others to
> harmonize them.
>
I have heard him play and he played, and wrote, the chords as well. He
could only play in that key but he could use the white notes as
necessary. He didn't just write the melodies, he wrote the melody,
chords and lyrics.
Joey Goldstein
--
pmfan57
I'm sorry. I meant he "came up with" the harmonies as well. It may be
that someone else transcribed it. But he played an arrangement with
left and right hand, including the chords. Steve Allen did not read
music and wrote lots of songs at the piano, with chords and melody. A
lot of composers write like that. Someone comes along and writes it
out from a recording or from watching them. What hype? Lots of famous
musicians couldn't read music. Although some, like Tal, could read
music but were not fast sight readers.
hans van leeuwen
"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> schreef in bericht
news:1134132041.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Hi Dan,
In this respect I can recall from my own experiences in the mid-fifties when
I had to learn everything from listening to records. There were no teachers,
no books, nothing. I discovered most of the tricks by hearing (not only
listening to guitarists for that matter) - the m7b5, the b9, the 13, the dim
scale, the augmented scale, the sus17b13#12+6^39*!&%!, you name it, and I
learned to apply them by studying my brains to butter. Nothing to be proud
of but it was the only way to do it. For a long time I had no idea what the
names of all these musical entities were. Only years later I learned the
simple logic behind the names of the chords. It didn't make me happier or a
better guitarplayer.....
Hans
Joey Goldstein
pmfan57 wrote:
>
> What hype?
That Ivirng Berlin only played the black keys?
Pt
Before I was born and shortly after my father was a Bing emulator.
Actually sounded better than Bing.
Bing became popular singing some hot jazz with the Rhythm Boys.
Some great stuff there if you can find it.
Seems to be lost in time.
Pt
Max Leggett
news:54d4a$4399b9ea$547561a4$26...@news.chello.nl...
>
>
> Hi Dan,
> In this respect I can recall from my own experiences in the mid-fifties
when
> I had to learn everything from listening to records. There were no
teachers,
> no books, nothing. I discovered most of the tricks by hearing (not only
> listening to guitarists for that matter) - the m7b5, the b9, the 13, the
dim
> scale, the augmented scale, the sus17b13#12+6^39*!&%!, you name it, and
I
> learned to apply them by studying my brains to butter. Nothing to be proud
> of but it was the only way to do it. For a long time I had no idea what
the
> names of all these musical entities were. Only years later I learned the
> simple logic behind the names of the chords. It didn't make me happier or
a
> better guitarplayer.....
> Hans
>
When I played bass I had my own system of nomenclature. A tritone sub I'd
refer to as a minor second. An altered scale I referred to as a flamenco
blues line. I can't remember any other terms, but I'm sure they were
doozies. I got the sound approximately right, and that was the important
thing.
pmfan57
He played only in one key is the story. and used a lever to play in
other keys. that key that he played in had almost all black keys.
that's the story as it has been passed down. it happens to be true as
well, which makes it an even better story.
Joey Goldstein
I thought you said that you saw him play and that he was competent
playing chords, including the chromatic chords normally associated with
his tunes, in any key?
That is not possible with just the black keys, even with a transposing lever.
If you saw what you say you saw then the whole "black keys only" thing
was just hype, no?
jsorell
news:iqejp15icr5e54vih...@4ax.com:
Didn't he use to sing in his brother's band....Bob Crosby and the Bob Cats?
John
oasysco
Yeah but Pat, like A Christmas Story, The Sons of Katie Elder, Gone
with the Wind, and Debbie does Dallas, Holiday Inn is a classic :)-
Greg
pmfan57
Joey,
Please go back and review what I actually posted. I never said he
played only the black keys. Someone else must have said that. I only
mentioned the well-known fact that he played only in one key, F# I
believe, and transposed when needed with a lever. That is a fact. He
played in a key that had mostly black keys. That's all that I said
here. Don't put words in my mouth. He played actual arrangements of
his songs, which as you said, he couldn't have done with just the black
keys. (And of course I never said he played only the black keys.)
Joe
pmfan57
oasysco
>played only the black keys. Someone else must have said that.
I said that. It was a factoid they mentioned during commercial breaks
as the movie played.
Greg
pmfan57
And it's close to the truth. Further research by me just know
indicates that he started his career by simply pecking melodies, later
learned the piano somewhat, but still got some assistance re:
harmonies. However, he apparently was not always satisfied with the
harmonies his arrangers would use and would work with the arranger
until a suitable chord was played that he approved of. Apparently his
own piano harmonies were never the best and would be worked on by the
"arrangers," who never received any co-composer credit.
Joe
Joey Goldstein
Ah OK, "mostly". I think I see.
Relax. Down boy.
> That's all that I said
> here. Don't put words in my mouth. He played actual arrangements of
> his songs, which as you said, he couldn't have done with just the black
> keys. (And of course I never said he played only the black keys.)
>
> Joe
--
Joey Goldstein
Makes me wonder though...
If he could play all the chromatic chords he needed for his compositions
in F#, why couldn't he play them in C or any other key also?
Weird dude.
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> Makes me wonder though...
> If he could play all the chromatic chords he needed for his compositions
> in F#, why couldn't he play them in C or any other key also?
I'll take a guess that he started out by just tinkering with the black
keys. Then, as his skills progressed he gradually added some of the
white keys, but never got comfortable playing in other keys.
Interesting.
Pt
pmfan57
What! Why should I relax? Anyway, the diet coke is just kicking in
and I can't relax.
Max Leggett
news:4399F3B7...@nowhere.net...
>
>
> I'll take a guess that he started out by just tinkering with the black
> keys. Then, as his skills progressed he gradually added some of the
> white keys, but never got comfortable playing in other keys.
>
I remember Eubie Blake introducing a song and explaing to the audience that
it was in the very difficult key of Gb major. "Folks, that's six flats,
which is an awful lot of accidentals, so I'm going to have to pay attention
here." I think he told us how one of the chords was E double flat minor.
:-)
Mike C.
Not being a keyboard player, I can guess, with a little help from past
statements. I had a chorus teacher in high school explain that Lionel Richie
writes most of his tunes in weird keys because it's easier for him to find
his way around the black keys. Not to say that Lionel only plays the black
piano keys, but that it's easier for him to find the tonal center that
begins with F# or C#, that kind of thing. Lionel was actually the sax player
with the Commodores, and isn't all that competent a pianist.
Although I'm the type of guy who would prefer to play in flat keys, because
I find it more difficult to mix open strings and fretted notes in a solo.
Nice chords can be played with open strings in the middle of them, like a
nice EMaj7 at the 6th fret with a few open strings, but single note stuff is
a lot easier just using fingered notes, for me.
Let's not even talk about capos.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
Teaching: http://findmeateacher.com/contact.php?id=1107
"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I
sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking
and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way."
- Jack Handey
Joey Goldstein
"Mike C." wrote:
>
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:4399F3B7...@nowhere.net...
> >
> >
> > Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >>
> >> Makes me wonder though...
> >> If he could play all the chromatic chords he needed for his compositions
> >> in F#, why couldn't he play them in C or any other key also?
> >
> > I'll take a guess that he started out by just tinkering with the black
> > keys. Then, as his skills progressed he gradually added some of the
> > white keys, but never got comfortable playing in other keys.
> >
> > Interesting.
> >
> > --
> > Joey Goldstein
> > http://www.joeygoldstein.com
> > joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
>
> it's easier for him to find the tonal center that
> begins with F# or C#
Seems to me that that's what the white keys were invented for.
pmfan57
Well from going through two kids learning the piano, I think you're
absolutely right. But some self taught players like the feeling of the
black keys and if you fool around using mostly those keys you'll be in
those sharp infested waters more often than not.
On the flat side, I remember when my son first learned Linus and Lucy
in the real key of Ab. The second bass riff starts on Cb! I kept
reminding him it's one of the white keys.
pmfan57
Well from going through two kids learning the piano, I think you're
pmfan57
Well from going through two kids learning the piano, I think you're