Full support from the spouse?
Adam Gottschalk
I know it seems quite OT, but just going through a (my first and only)
divorce now, I have been wondering a lot about what it means for a
spouse or significant other to be fully supportive and encouraging of
one's pursuits, whether they be money-makers or not.
I wonder what percentage (very roughly speaking) of working jazz players
out there would say things along the lines of "I couldn't do any of this
without my adoring wife/husband". I know I could not and will not ever
be able to say that phrase, not that I necessarily desire to. I find
myself in a place feeling that every single ounce of artistic gumption
in one's life comes from one's own motivation and the inspiration one
takes from the world around...for me, it's quite as if every bit of
motivation I've ever had to make music, to write, to perform, stems from
my fundamental loneliness and sense of anomie.
Illustrator Ralph Steadman said, rather ineloquently, "If you're an
artist, you're an artist for fuck's sake." For some reason, that really
strikes a chord with me. It seems to me that making the choice to be a
creative person, to be one who is not only willing to but is addicted to
performing in front of others, to bucking the odds, to looking at the
currents of the world and attempting to swim against them, to speaking
the Truth no matter how hopeless it seems, no matter how marginal you
are made to feel as merely a musician or a painter or God forbid a poet,
these are the tendencies of a person who will lead a lonesome life.
Anyone dedicated to Truth seeking and Truth speaking must be content to
be alone much of the time. The need for reflection, and practice, and
discipline, and steadfast devotion to the muses is all encompassing, and
that much more difficult, going it alone, in this epoch when anything
that isn't profit-oritented from the get-go is seen as superfluous. I
will always wonder what it's like to have a family, to make it work (and
lord knows it takes more work than anything else much of the time), and
yet to explore the full extent of one's artistic self all the while...
Do your spouses let you spend as much of your time as you need doing
your thing, quite apart from her or him, and does that keep both of you
happy? How much of a "bringin home the bacon" question is it? Do you
think life would be "easier" if you were single? Lonelier?...
Rick Ross
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fear_loathing
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:adam-073BEF.0...@news.fu-berlin.de...
.MAtt Butler
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:adam-073BEF.0...@news.fu-berlin.de...
>
Paul Sanwald
>
> your thing, quite apart from her or him, and does that keep both of you
> happy? How much of a "bringin home the bacon" question is it? Do you
> think life would be "easier" if you were single? Lonelier?...
hey adam, I am sorry to hear about your divorce. it's tough I'm sure.
I'm not married, but I do have a serious girlfriend that I have been
dating for a long time. she doesn't like jazz at all, but we are both
very independent people and she understands my need to practice better
than anyone I've ever met. I have found (and I'm sure you have, as
well), that there are not many girls out there that can tolerate
living with someone so dedicated to music, or any other artistic
pursuit.
--paul
Pt
<ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote:
Although my wife had no knowledge of music she did not discourage me
from playing it.
I often played songs for her and it made her happy.
She offered her opinion as a listener which I appreciated greatly.
She only attended one of my shows and she was in awe.
So I will say that I was lucky.
After she passed away a year and a half ago I have been alone.
Not totally alone though.
I met a girl and we lived together for a short time.
Her interests did not include music.
When I went out to play she would not come with me and I think that
she felt that my music was taking me away from her or possibly she
thought that there was another woman.
Our relationship did not last long mostly because we had totally
different interests in life and a serious lack of communication.
Music has not been my life but it has been a big part of it for almost
40 years.
I don't intend to give it up.
For the most part I have been alone for the past year and a half and I
am not happy.
My wife was encouraging, listened to what I had to say and always told
me her feelings about everything.
My biggest problem now with trying to find another woman is that she
is not replaceable.
Living alone for me is rough but it is better than living with a woman
who has no interest in my goals in life.
I have no idea just what the future will hold but as for now I think
of my wife every day and I miss her tremendously.
But life goes on and so does my music.
Pt
SCOT GORMLEY
instrument (of course, I'm still not even close). My practicing wasn't
always very focused, but my heart was in the right place. I was so
engrossed in the instrument that I never even went out on a date, so
obviously the instrument was very important to me. However, when I was 21, I
met a girl, fell in love, and quickly realized conflict: "You love you
guitar more than me" . . . "you'll stop wasting your time when you get some
real responsibilities" . . . etc. It was a constant battle, and I finally
gave in (i.e., I all but stopped playing for about a year). After I made
that sacrifice (a really stupid one), my girlfriend and I broke up anyway.
So then I had no girl and no chops. It was absolutely the most depressing
time of my life. When I confided my despair to my old girlfriend, she said,
"Just go back to doing the things you used to before we met." (By then, she
had already moved on to the next victim.)
Mine is a pretty pathetic story, I know, but I can sure appreciate your
point of view, Adam. Now I spend a tremendous amount of time studying and
practicing the instrument again. I have no illusions of ever making any
money or gaining fame from it at all--instead, it's just the art that
compels me. Over the years, many of my professional colleagues have pointed
out that if I invested my guitar time to academic pursuits instead
(specifically, getting a Ph.D.), I would have earned a doctorate many years
ago and therefore would have a "better" life. I could not disagree more;
instead, I always have viewed the time I spent working on business degrees
and "professional" activities as necessary evils, only (I'm even tempted to
say "wastes of time"). That's probably a pretty ironic statement,
considering that I worked for five years as a full-time college professor.
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:adam-073BEF.0...@news.fu-berlin.de...
>
Max Leggett
<ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote:
>Do your spouses let you spend as much of your time as you need doing
>your thing,
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's ripe.
cmaj7dmin7
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:adam-073BEF.0...@news.fu-berlin.de...
>
> divorce now, I have been wondering a lot about what it means for a
> spouse or significant other to be fully supportive and encouraging of
> one's pursuits, whether they be money-makers or not.
Nobody going through a divorce thinks clearly about such things. Nobody can
think clearly about love anyway; that's not the nature of the phenomenon.
What if your significant other were not only fully supportive but insistent
that you needed to improve significantly, music-wise, and dumped you when
you didn't meet those expectations? Is it still "truth" you're seeking and
have fallen down?
There's no truth in music--particularly in jazz. Alternatively, there's
nothing but the truth that you can make just about anything work rhymically,
harmonically and tonally and the overwhelming majority of the listening
public won't be able to tell the difference. If truth is beauty and beauty
is in the eye of the beholder then the truth is you better decide whether
the beholder you pick and who picks you receives the most truth that in the
exercise of your best efforts you can muster.
You're a working jazz musician and that means unless you're in the top
less-than-1% you're the same thing as a street drug dealer: in the business
to be able to afford product at a discount. You're not covering or are
barely covering some of your expenses, you can't justify your habit and
commerce on any objective fiscal level and by nature, as an improvisor,
you're sublimely self-indulgent. Now, you've hit a fork in the road and you
don't have Emily Post with you to say which one's right.
I'm lucky. I'm a lawyer who owns a guitar. I've started too late, had too
little talent and am too lazy to make anything out of music. I'm a guy and
I'm fully in possession of that guy phenomenon that makes us think we're
right most of the time--until the facts intrude. I'm also lucky I'm an old
guy and I think I've found out there are a lot more questions than answers.
You probably ought to tell her you're sorry about the way things worked out,
that you're sad and feel a great loss in your life, that you see music as
your life's work and are going to continue to work on it and that you trully
hope she finds someone with whom she can be happy.
Then, again, what the fuck do I know?
LNC
Steve Modica
roommate, my business partner, my friend, my co-worker, etc etc.
Doing something pationately (like playing guitar) is all well and good,
but unless it's your job and you're bringing home some money from it,
you might as well be fishing as far as she's concerned. So just as much
as you expect her to allow you to practice, you have to balance your
life so you're also getting other things done.
I think some people put the label "art" on things as a way of making it
something other than a hobby. If you are doing it to make money and you
are making that money within the context of providing for your family,
great. I do that everyday as an engineering manager at a computer
company. If you're just doing it because of some "inner drive" and you
can't point to any benefit other than it scratches an itch, you're
fishing. You can't fish everyday.
Steve
Rick Del Savio
to have had my wifes' support. About 14 years ago she saw how miserable I
was working this awful 'day-job'.
She's the one who told me to take a shot at teaching/gigging full-time. I
had much trepidation about losing that steady pay-check. But once I put my
energies towards it I was bringing home the same about of money as the day
job, within 2-3 months. She carried the financial ball during those initial
months. I've had so many friends, guitar-buddies bail-out once they got
hooked-up with a spouse.
I guess that being a musician didn't mean to them what it does to me.
Anyway...Hang in there Adam. Take care, Rick :) Adam
Gottschalk wrote:
--
Jazz Guitarist/Educator
Check out lessons and original music @
http://www.rickdelsavio.com
Pt
There have been times in my life when I was totally alone with my
feelings.
There was no one to let it all out to.
But I ALWAYS had the best friend I ever had by my side.
My guitar.
I could tell it anything and everything.
If I was angry it would reply with angry music.
If I was sad it would sing the blues.
Remember that no matter what kind of curve ball life throws at you,
you always have your best friend close by and that friend will always
listen to you.
Pt
mark
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:adam-073BEF.0...@news.fu-berlin.de...
>
> divorce now, I have been wondering a lot about what it means for a
> spouse or significant other to be fully supportive and encouraging of
> one's pursuits, whether they be money-makers or not.
>
- snipped -
I think this is a great topic. I'm not a working jazz player, and for those
of you that have been so kind as to listen to my soundclips that I've posted
from time to time, I'm not even remotely a jazz player yet. But here's my
story:
I began playing when I was 20, while I was enduring a 6 year commitment to
the Navy. It was a difficult, long enlistment for me. I just felt like I was
missing out on all the things other young people were enjoying. Anyways,
right around the time that Nirvana broke big, I remember sitting in front of
a TV and saying to myself, "I know I could make better music than the
garbage I'm seeing these days." (boy was I wrong). So I buy a guitar and
amp, and proceed to practice for the next 5 years for many hours per day.
Problem was it wasn't actual practice, but noodling. So I get out of the
Navy, go back to school, and while in school I meet my now wife.Around the
same time that I am set to finish my degree and find a job, my then
girlfriend and I decide to move in together. At that point, a bunch of
things sort of happened all at once, with the end result being my putting my
guitar in its case and not picking it up for 5 years straight. Not once. I
went from playing 3 - 4 hours per day, to not picking it up at all. Those
factors that drove me to that point included:
- since I was starting a new job/career, I told myself that I needed to
focus on that
- I had recently bought a new amp, and it was quite expensive, and it
sounded horrible - but like most things musically, I blamed my playing on it
- My girlfriend (now, 6 years later, wife) never really supported my
playing. She wasn't negative about it. She just had zero interest. The fact
that I played blues didn't help, as if it isn't pop or rock she has no
interest. She likes a little jazz, but unfrotunately I can't play that (yet
: )
- I had taken some guitar lessons for the first time, and the teacher I had
(typical 19 year old kid who plays in the local cover band but wasn't much
better than me so I found out, and more importantly couldn't teach) so that
made me frustrated.
So flash forward to about 11 months ago. The itch was really back, meaning
the itch to play guitar again. But I kept saying to myself, wait a few
months, and if you still must play then consider the ramifications. Those
ramifications, for me, are simply this: I am either playing or thinking
about the guitar many hours per day. Every day. Whether I'm driving to work
in the morning, or taking a shower, or have a guitar in front of me, I'm
thinking about it. Obsession I guess. I don't think it's unhealthy. Just
that whenever my mind isn't occuppied by something else, I turn to the
fretboard in my mind. And I knew that would happen, and so I told my wife
that if I did decide to get back into playing, that it was an all or nothing
proposition. She supported it.
Does she listen or encourage my playing? no. Does she tolerate it? Yes. She
makes no rude comments, or any comments, towards it. As I write this, I
don't think she totally understands my devotion to it. Interestingly, she
did ask me a month or so ago the following, "So, what is your end goal for
this guitar thing? Do you want to be in a profitable band? Teach guitar?
What?" And quite honestly I never thought about the answer to that before.
The question never came up in my mind. I don't have the time for bands, and
in the couple I've belonged to, I don't have the patience for most other
musicians' idiosyncracies either. I didn't have an answer for her.
But she didn't mind. And that's probably because studying a musical
instrument is a relatively noble thing, when you consider that most guys my
age (30's) have some type of hobby/activity they do during their non-working
hours. Drinking, gambling, watching tv, computer games, obsessive home
improvements, etc. Guitar is just one more of them, and I'll take that one
over the others any day.
I'm still a lousy player. For every 10 hours that I practice, the average
guy only needs 1 hour to master the same material. I guess it's just
something to do.
Chip L
With 20 years of marriage behind, I can only speak for my situation. We
respect each others differences. We have basic expectations of each other,
but I don't expect her to think like me or be like me.
I play every day and gig a little. I buy guitars and amps. My wife is
totally indifferent. She doesn't support it nor discourage it. Its my
thing - not hers.
I still meet the original expectations of the marriage - to love, respect
and honor. I would not be fair to her to alter the deal midway through. If
I decided to quit a successful job and become a jazz musician full time, I
would not be suprised if she left. That was not the original deal.
Chip L.
Stan Fong
very encouraging. Whenever I'm in the kitchen with with her, she kicks me
out and tells me to go play my guitar. I always oblige. I guess I must get
in her way. :>) She gives my a bad time for buying a lot of things but she
never puts up a fuss when I buy a guitar or some other guitar related item.
Stan
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7pjqivguiuk2kcoei...@4ax.com...
Stan Fong
Sorry to hear about your divorce. Some things just aren't meant to be. My
ex-wife use to support me and made most of the money while I was in school.
She complained about me spending too much time on the guitar rather the
spending time with her. Eventually the right person will come along. It did
for me anyway. My other half is the greatest. What a contrast to my ex.
Even though we are a couple she still understands we are also individuals.
Some women don't have as many hobbies or things to get into like us guys. My
other half envies me for doing something that I love doing. She told me she
wishes she could be into something like I am with my guitar.
Stan
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:adam-073BEF.0...@news.fu-berlin.de...
>
Pt
wrote:
>Adam, sorry to hear about your divorce.
>
>With 20 years of marriage behind, I can only speak for my situation. We
>respect each others differences. We have basic expectations of each other,
>but I don't expect her to think like me or be like me.
>
>I play every day and gig a little. I buy guitars and amps. My wife is
>totally indifferent. She doesn't support it nor discourage it. Its my
>thing - not hers.
>
>I still meet the original expectations of the marriage - to love, respect
>and honor. I would not be fair to her to alter the deal midway through. If
>I decided to quit a successful job and become a jazz musician full time, I
>would not be suprised if she left. That was not the original deal.
>
>Chip L.
So, a note to you unmarried young guys (old guys too).
Before you make the vows be sure to have a written and signed contract
that will allow you to become a full time jazz musician if you so
desire.
It's only fair.
:)
Pt
Rbsoul
she has tennis. I still have the guitar. She plays team tennis. I play the
occasional gig. She's never been against it...though I don't think she
understands why I put so much time into it. She is not musical. I've bought all
sorts of instruments over the years for her...to try. She just is not into it.
She likes to listen and tolerates my phases to a certain extent "Enough Bossa,
we've been listening to Bossa for months already!!" or "No more trumpet
please...how about some piano", etc. But every once in a while I'll catch her
humming something I've been working on...like Bye Bye Blackbird. So I think she
likes it. Only nono is freejazz. No beat, no melody, she doesn't get it. I
think she likes when friends come over and we get lubed enough to break out the
guitar and have a standards sing along!!
Ken Willinger
Hear my clips at:
http://www.soundclick.com/kenwillinger
Joe Finn
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:adam-073BEF.0...@news.fu-berlin.de...
>
I was working in a band about 900 miles from home [Wisconsin] when I met my
wife. I was a full time musician and on the road almost all the time. We
stayed in Wisconsin for a while after getting married but I told her it
wouldn't be a good idea for me to live there permanently because there is no
audience for what I'm doing in America's Dairyland. We are still married and
reside about two hours north of nyc where there are more than enough gigs to
keep me going.
No matter what we may argue about she can never really say she didn't know
what she was getting into. I continue to spend the requisite time needed to
"do my thing" these days just like I was doing the night we met. I have made
a concession in terms of playing local gigs rather than road gigs. This is
because I don't like traveling like I used to. We have been married 18 years
and it continues to be a good partnership.
At this point I think I'll keep her.
I'm sorry to hear you are going through a divorce. I hope it all works out
for the best. Hang in there. ..........joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
ple...@nospam.us
>Do your spouses let you spend as much of your time as you need doing
>your thing, quite apart from her or him, and does that keep both of you
>happy? How much of a "bringin home the bacon" question is it? Do you
>think life would be "easier" if you were single? Lonelier?...
The married musicians I know (including me!) have spouses that
seem to support or at least not object to the amount of time it
takes to make a career in music. I think that is key to being
married to a professional musician. To most of the world,
playing music is a recreational activity and many SO's seem to
feel that your musical activities are recreational time spent
away from them. There are times when I am thinking about
getting a day job again and my wife tells me to quit thinking
like that and concentrate on the important things.
I am sorry to hear of your divorce. That's got to be one of the
most wrenching experiences you can have. I would be a lot
lonelier and possibly a lot less successful without my wife.
Al
--
Reply to al_guitar "at" clifftopmusic "dot" com
Tom Lippincott
>Do your spouses let you spend as much of your time as you need doing
>your thing, quite apart from her or him, and does that keep both of you
>happy? How much of a "bringin home the bacon" question is it?
I don't think this is off topic at all; on the contrary this is a great topic,
important to many of us here, and there have been some really interesting and
thought provoking responses so far.
As for me, I can give you a somewhat alternative response from most of the
others so far; most of the posts seem to be from guys who have dealt with
relationships with women who aren't at all into music. I was married to a
musician (she's a singer, but is among the relatively few singers who I think
can be thought of on equal terms as any instrumentalist as far as musicianship
goes). So for me, there was never a problem with my wife not being able to
understand the how and why of being a musician. In fact, during our marriage
we worked together most of the time, as a duo and with a quartet with bass and
drums. And yet, we still had a lot of the same problems that anyone else has;
disagreements about money, ect. In the end things didn't work out and she left
me for another guy.
So I guess one point is, just because your spouse understands what it takes to
be a musican and supports you in your pursuits, doesn't mean there isn't the
same potential for all the same problems.
With that said, I've always pretty much figured the only way I could ever be in
another long term relationship is if the woman is a musician, or at very least
is very heavily involved in the arts in some respect. Music, and the arts in
general, are such a major part of my life that I really have a hard time
relating at all to people who aren't primarily artists of some sort themselves.
It's not the only reason, but it's a big reason why I've been single now for
10 years.
Do you
>think life would be "easier" if you were single? Lonelier?...
>
>
yes, and yes. Life is simpler being single, but very lonely sometimes (heck,
MOST of the time). Everything in life is a compromise, and I can't really say
which way is "better." I know that I've only known two women in my life that
I'd gladly be willing to give up being single for (the above mentioned one and
one who I never really got the chance to tell how I felt about her).
A friend of mine told me I'm probalby luckier than most in a way because many
people never really meet even one person like that, and just end up "settling"
for someone to keep from being alone. I do know this much for sure; to me
being single, independant, and not having to compromise at all with my music,
but being lonely a lot of the time is infinitely superior to settling for being
in a relationship just to avoid being alone.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm
Ted Vieira
under any circumstances. The great thing about all this is that you have
your future ahead of you with no one to call the shots except for your self.
That's a great place to be in. Relationships can be the best thing on Earth,
but if it's not the right relationship it's much better to move on.
I'm fortunate that I am with my fiancé who is a singer. She's new to singing
jazz, but is loving it and it gives us something else to develop our
relationship around. She's pretty tolorant of my involvement with my music
(practicing, etc...) but of course if you're in a relationship, that kind of
thing doesn't run on auto pilot so I also make sure I don't forget about
working on my relationship "chops."
Good luck with your future! The cool thing is you can go anywhere you want
to now, gig as much as you want, take a gig half way accross the world if
you like. It's an open road...
Ted Vieira
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
http://TedVieira.com
Bio Info, Free Online Guitar Instruction,
Instructional Books, Articles, hear my CDs and more...
--
Listen to my new solo jazz guitar CD, "Quiet Places"
at: http://tedvieira.com/cd.html
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Pt
wrote:
>
>yes, and yes. Life is simpler being single, but very lonely sometimes (heck,
>MOST of the time). Everything in life is a compromise, and I can't really say
>which way is "better." I know that I've only known two women in my life that
>I'd gladly be willing to give up being single for (the above mentioned one and
>one who I never really got the chance to tell how I felt about her).
>A friend of mine told me I'm probalby luckier than most in a way because many
>people never really meet even one person like that, and just end up "settling"
>for someone to keep from being alone. I do know this much for sure; to me
>being single, independant, and not having to compromise at all with my music,
>but being lonely a lot of the time is infinitely superior to settling for being
>in a relationship just to avoid being alone.
>
>Tom Lippincott
I, for one, appreciate what you said.
Pt
Max Leggett
>>for someone to keep from being alone. I do know this much for sure; to me
>>being single, independant, and not having to compromise at all with my music,
>>but being lonely a lot of the time is infinitely superior to settling for being
>>in a relationship just to avoid being alone.
I was never so lonely as when I was stuck in a bad relationship,
although St Cecilia never let me down. [Strings burst into Hearts and
Roses ....]
Margaret Wilson
news:20030803171309...@mb-m11.aol.com...
>
... I do know this much for sure; to me
> being single, independant, and not having to compromise at all with my
music,
> but being lonely a lot of the time is infinitely superior to settling for
being
> in a relationship just to avoid being alone.
Right on, Tom! :-)
Regards,
Margaret
David Moss
with no aspirations to ever be anything else - but
I feel my experience is very relevant, and this is
one of those discussions where you just have
to chip in!
Adam, you've already received a lot of "sorry
to hear about the divorce" wishes, so I'll be
different: sorry to hear that your marriage was
getting into problems, and I'm glad to hear about
the divorce - I hope it will end those problems
for you as completely as it did for me.
My ex-wife's attitude to my guitar playing was
symptomatic of my first marriage. Zero interest,
zero preparedness to see me spending any money
on my hobby, OK for me to practice because that
way I was out of her sight - unless it was audible
to her, then she'd yell down the stairs "shut up
the godamm plinky plunk".
With Anna, my present and future partner, it
couldn't be more different. Supportive? Well,
my archtop was her wedding present to me,
my nylon string was her birthday present, as
was my first year of jazz guitar tuition at the
local music school. Anna positively encourages
me to practice regularly, and she's restarted her
old hobby of patchwork and quilting so that she
has something to do when I'm practising. We
just like to be in the same room together when
she's quilting and I'm jazzing.
Anna wasn't into jazz before we met, and she
still prefers rock and pop. But she's got to know
and like jazz through me - from right at the start
of our relationship, when she found Kind Of Blue
and Midnight Blue great CDs to make love to.
We joined the local jazz club together, where she really
gets involved as a volunteer barmaid - putting me to shame,
actually. She's accompanied me to the North Sea and
the Montreux jazz festivals, she often reads this newsgroup
over my shoulder. She's welcomed members of this
newsgroup to our house - Kevin Van Sant, Mark
Kleinhaut and Keith Freeman have stayed over, Jens
Weisse has visited us too.
I don't think that level of support is just because
Anna's special. It's because we're in love - I
mean *really* in love. I can't define it, I certainly
can't tell you how to find it, but if it happens to
you you'll know it. She can certainly count on
the same level of support from me for anything
that makes her happy.
Better alone than with a non-supportive spouse?
Well maybe that's true - but finding a partner
who really does give you full support, from the
heart, is the best deal of all. I don't think many
people get that lucky.
Rob Lewis
I'm sorry your marriage didn't work out. It sucks being alone (if you
don't want to be).
I agree with Steve. Successful relationships involve balance. I look
at it like a budget. There is only so much time, energy and money.
Some of that needs to go to running our household. Some of it goes to
maintaining our good relationship. And some of it is for me alone to
do with as I please.
Without this last part, a marriage will feel stifling and invasive.
And without the first parts, the spouse will feel resentful and put
upon (rightfully so).
So the trick is, getting with (and also yourself being) a person who
is willing and able to do his/her part to create balance.
So the spousal support thing comes, I think, from a mutual willingness
to allow room for the needs of the other to be met in one way or
another. It's not something the other person does or doesn't do for
you. My opinion, FWIW. That and $5.95 will get you a mocha grande
latte at Starbucks ;-)
- Rob
Richard Bornman
Question for those who have had negative experiences with spouses re music:
Why didn't you check out how she/he felt about your musical commitment
BEFORE you got married?
Oscar Bearinger
I like many of the comments (pt, tom l, chip, joe) and I want to concur (or
maybe not!) with David : I'm sorry to hear about your divorce - or maybe
I'm sorry to hear your marriage had trouble....
I want to add two things, from my experience.
First is that this is a thing about "space" in the relationship. My wife
had little or no interest in my art (poetry) when we were first together.
This went on for ten or more years and I buried myself in work, etc etc and
ignored my calling to write. Eventually I returned to writing and did this
for myself. It was ten more years before Jan got interested enough to learn
about poetry etc to at least understand a little about what I was doing.
Still, it has been hard for me to write TO her, to write anything FOR her or
about US. This has changed considerably in the past few years, which leads
to my second point.
The real changes for us happened when Jan got (seriously, though not
professionally) interested and active in her own artistic pursuits. She is
now painting and has been a real passion for herself.
Why do I call this issue "space"? The difference in our relationship, and
it is a real and substantial difference, is when we BOTH took and demanded
space for ourselves as individuals to explore our separate passions. I
think these real, different interests might apply to more than just artistic
pursuits as well....
I hope I've been clear enough. Appreciated others' comments on this. Love
what Ted said : "it's an open road..."
Hang in there, Adam.
Oscar
thom_j.
"David Moss" wrote:
> Better alone than with a non-supportive spouse?
> Well maybe that's true - but finding a partner
> who really does give you full support, from the
> heart, is the best deal of all. I don't think many
> people get that lucky.
David M, I wasnt going to involve myself in this thread, but your
post struck a chord (no pun) & here I am. I have been divorced
& single for 23years now.. The first 15+yrs were great, the next
5+ were ok, but now I'm kinda' re'thinking my internal emotions
as I move into my so called "older" years..
You'all know I clown around alot on here and it's my device of
escape.. But reading your post David does make me wonder if
I ever could find a pardner aka s.o. that can at least appreciate
or tolerate the 'quirks' of an artist ( I've been blessed with both
graphic & musical talent, no matter how good or bad they are)
so maybe it would be nice to have a fine gal by my side for the
last years of my life? (just reflecting aloud right now)
David, if I could have 1/10th of what you, and Anna have I'd
be a happy dude, but only time & my attitude to make it work
will tell...eh? I applaud your relationship & I hope you'll enjoy
each other "til the end of time!"
cheers thom_j.
Margaret Wilson
the beginning. It's only with time that the truth comes out. And no
offense, but why the "blame the victim" question?
Regards,
Margaret
"Richard Bornman" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:bgk75l$p38eh$1...@ID-173106.news.uni-berlin.de...
Max Leggett
She met me as a musician. knew of the commitment I had to it, and
after a couople of years treated music as though it were a deliberate
slight to her. Nothing to do with music, really - she was just looking
for a power and control handle.
Richard Bornman
"Margaret Wilson" <twok...@nospam.msn.com> wrote :
> You know, potential spouses have a way of tolerating all sorts of things
in
> the beginning. It's only with time that the truth comes out. And no
> offense, but why the "blame the victim" question?
Margaret,
I really wasn't doing any blaming!!
Just asking the obvious question...Of course I know
that people change, that relationships at the start are
diff creatures to what they later become, that deception
may play a role etc etc...
Steven Bornfeld
Margaret Wilson wrote:
> You know, potential spouses have a way of tolerating all sorts of things in
> the beginning. It's only with time that the truth comes out. And no
> offense, but why the "blame the victim" question?
>
> Regards,
>
> Margaret
I have more trouble with my wife tolerating my time on the computer.
Steve
Joe Finn
"Richard Bornman" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:bgk75l$p38eh$1...@ID-173106.news.uni-berlin.de...
Now there's a blinding flash of the obvious! I had two "serious" girlfriends
before getting married. Each of them had "issues" [god I hate that term]
with the fact that the music kept me out of town periodically and also kept
me out real late when I was actually in town.
Call it fate. Call it kismet. By some miracle of dumb stinking luck I
managed not to marry either of these two. I loved each of them dearly but
it's better we never wed.
Counting my blessings. .........joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
>
>
thomas
>
> Doing something pationately (like playing guitar) is all well and good,
> but unless it's your job and you're bringing home some money from it,
> you might as well be fishing as far as she's concerned.
I know more than a few cats whose wives support them while
they don't make any money doing their jazz "hobby". It can
be done, but don't ask me how to work it.
Greg D
$jg.16...@news1.news.adelphia.net:
> welcome to my group!
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fear_loathing
I'd ante up on this thread, but my wife might see it :)
Greg
>
>
>
>
> "Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:adam-073BEF.0...@news.fu-berlin.de...
>>
Max Leggett
I think it's important that the spouse have something equally
important to them. It your spouse's cultural activities consist of
watching TV, then you're in for a clash. If she's passionate about
dance, or drawing, or theatre, or whatever, then not only will she
understand what drives you, but she'll be too busy to think you're
slighting her when you practice. This cuts both ways - there are lots
of couch potatoes cheering on the Redskins and sneering at their wives
when they go to see a play. There are also a lot of power and control
subtexts to all these things - none of this is occuring in a vacuum.
David Moss
>
> Margaret,
> I really wasn't doing any blaming!!
> Just asking the obvious question...Of course
> I know that people change, that relationships
> at the start are diff creatures to what they later
> become, that deception may play a role etc etc...
In my own case with my first marriage, I
didn't have much of a commitment to the
guitar when we met. On the whole I'd lost
interest in guitar playing, wasn't really going
anywhere with it.
It was 9 years later when I started getting into
jazz and got re-bitten by the guitar bug. In fact,
the void of fulfillment in my marriage was
probably a contributing reason why I started
geting seriously involved in jazz as a hobby. And
her insulting attitude to my playing was definitely
a contributing reason why I finally said enough
is enough.
Not that my ex-wife's lack of support was a
surprise by that time. She'd made a pretty good
job of pretending not to be shit while we were
courting, but she showed her true character as
soon as I'd actually signed the register. In retrospect,
I'd say I was blind to some pretty obvious signs -
for example, when she said "If I don't get a fitted
kitchen I'm not going to marry you", it should have
lit up some warning lights for me. But it's like Tom
Lippincott said, I was 34 and still a bachelor, and
I thought it's about time I married somebody - has
to be better than being alone, I thought.
Within a year I was already thinking seriously
about divorce, but then she got pregnant so
I stayed in hell for 10 years more, because that
was the gentlemanly thing to do...
Not that I'm complaining. We're all the sum of
all our experiences, so that experience has made
me the person I am today, the person Anna loves.
She gives me everything I was missing in my first
marriage, and she says I do the same for her. She
and I both learned about love and partnership
through negative examples.
David Moss
tell you this: your soulmate is out there
somewhere. You can't go hunting for her,
it doesn't work like that. You may never
meet her - but it just might happen, when
you're least expecting it. Anna was living
in Switzerland, less than 2 hours from my
home, but we met in Winnipeg of all places.
Just keep your eyes peeled, and be yourself.
"thom_j." wrote...
Holger Weber
"David Moss" <david.no...@anka.fzk.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:bgk52n$orhll$1...@ID-90151.news.uni-berlin.de...
-snip-
>
> I don't think that level of support is just because
> Anna's special. It's because we're in love - I
> mean *really* in love. I can't define it, I certainly
> can't tell you how to find it, but if it happens to
> you you'll know it. She can certainly count on
> the same level of support from me for anything
> that makes her happy.
Being together with my wife for 22 years now I know exactly what you mean.
When we met as teenagers I didn't even listen to jazz yet. She was
supportive all the way and takes great pride in me having become a musician.
Although her career has nothing to do with jazz she loves it as much as I
do. We met Art Blakey and Woody Shaw together and she can easily tell Wes
from Kenny or Grant.
Holger
tomw
ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net says...
snip
> Do your spouses let you spend as much of your time as you need doing
> your thing, quite apart from her or him, and does that keep both of you
> happy? How much of a "bringin home the bacon" question is it? Do you
> think life would be "easier" if you were single? Lonelier?...
>
I've been married for 30+ years(quit counting at 30). I was playing
guitar before we met, and at various times I've played full time, part
time, etc. There have been periods where Colette supported the family,
and times when I've dropped out of bands in order to bring in more cash.
Colette would always be the first to encourage me to get out there on
the circuit, although that wouldn't stop her from complaining about the
inconvenience and lack of financial remuneration that ensued. A
relationship is dynamic: has highs and lows, there is growth(and
sometimes shrinkage). When you love someone, you have to put them first
-- that's really hard for an artist. If you put your art first, it's
hard on the relationship. The marriage, the art; you have to finesse
it. It's going to require strength, effor, and commitment. The
relationship you share has got to be worth the effort; otherwise, you're
better off with a pet. My own conclusion is that music doesn't occur in
a vacuum: it accompanies life. If you don't have a life, music ain't
worth a shit. YMMV
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to mull this stuff over. It was
overdue.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Mark Kleinhaut
Adam, I'm always saying I couldn't do any of this without the support of my
wife, Erika.
Your kindred spirit soul mate is out there- may you find each other sooner
than later.
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
----== Posted via Usenet.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.Usenet.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Joe Finn
>
> I think it's important that the spouse have something equally
> important to them. It your spouse's cultural activities consist of
> watching TV, then you're in for a clash. If she's passionate about
> dance, or drawing, or theatre, or whatever, then not only will she
> understand what drives you, but she'll be too busy to think you're
> slighting her when you practice. This cuts both ways - there are lots
> of couch potatoes cheering on the Redskins and sneering at their wives
> when they go to see a play. There are also a lot of power and control
> subtexts to all these things - none of this is occuring in a vacuum.
>
It works on the cultural level. It also happens on the work ethic level.
Playing music is a career. It's work. In many ways it's no different than
any other field of endeavor. Putting in the hours necessary to get the job
done goes with the territory no matter what career one chooses to pursue.
There are wives of doctors, lawyers and indian chiefs who feel jealous of
the time their husbands devote to the job. Musicians are not alone in this
regard. ........joe
MBR
> little talent and am too lazy to make anything out of music.
> Then, again, what the fuck do I know?
>
> LNC
========================
well, evidently you know something.
fl...@comcast.net
<ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>Do your spouses let you spend as much of your time as you need doing
>your thing, quite apart from her or him, and does that keep both of you
>happy? How much of a "bringin home the bacon" question is it? Do you
>think life would be "easier" if you were single? Lonelier?...
Wow. I guess I'm fortunate.
My wife has put up with every one of my hobbies/interests/pursuits
even though none of them were any real money-makers (a lot of them
sucked up money). Not only has she merely put up with them, she's
supported every one.
Let's see, over the years, she's had to contend with my:
Music - playing in bands, gigging, taking lessons, gear, etc., etc.
Getting a little home-recording setup in the basement. More gear.
Playing hockey - game nights, leauge fees, GEAR :)
Painting - setting up a studio, buying supplies (i.e., GEAR)
Performing magic - gigs (minimal gear, since I did close-up magic)
Performing stand-up comedy - gigs, fortunately no gear, but she had to
put up with my material :)
Learning to fly/buying an airplane - mucho GEAR!!
I guess she's used to it by now - but probably still bracing for the
next time I say "Hey honey, you know what I've always wanted to
do?..."
Hmmm... I guess I should probably take her out to dinner or something.
I'll have to check my calendar and see which night I'm not playing...
:)
IvanDRodriguez
>your thing,
What a concept......
Ivan
p.s....sorry to read about the bid D thing...
William Barkin
problems...but the phrase that stays on my mind is:..."most men lead lives
of quiet desperation..." ta-da!
Good luck...
-Bill
--------------------------
William Barkin - Fine Artist
Online Portfolio
http://www.bcn.net/~wbarkin
> Do your spouses let you spend as much of your time as you need doing
Max Leggett
Do married men think?
"Young men looking to make their mark may want to hold off on those
wedding plans," says The Week magazine. "A study of the lives of 280
successful scientists throughout history found that their creativity
dried up once they wed. Two-thirds of the scientists made their most
significant contributions to science before they hit their mid-30s and
before they were married. Once the men settled down, they seemed to
lose their edge -- while unmarried scientists continued to make great
scientific contributions. Marriages has an equally dampening effect on
musicians, painters and authors."
So there you have it. Take the money you'd put aside for a diamond
ring and get down to Duffy's for a snort.
Al
> be alone much of the time.
I'm reminded of a joke told by Jerry Seinfeld in the new movie "Comedian."
There's a scene where an up and coming comic is confiding to Jerry that he
has serious doubts about the journeyman's lifestyle, that his friends are
marrying, buying homes, having children, and that he feels he might have
missed that train. Jerry basically discounts the guy's concerns, implying
that your either called to this way of living or not. This isn't verbatim,
but it's close...
During World War II, the Glen Miller Orchestra was flying into London on a
miserably cold and snowy night. Because conditions at the main airport were
so bad, the plane was diverted to an outlying airfield, and the musicians
had to walk in the storm for miles to get to their base. It was a terrible
blizzard, with pounding snow and a relentless, searing wind. As the
musicians carried their heavy bags and instruments down a dark county road,
ankle deep in mud, they came across a tiny cottage. As they huddled near
the front window, shivering miserably, they looked inside to see a family of
five. A cozy fire was burning in the hearth, and the room glowed with its
warmth. The mother was putting a hot, home-cooked meal on the table, while
the father bounced a delighted baby boy on his knee. The two other children
played happily before the fire, and their giggles filled the room. Before
moving on, one of the musicians turned to the others and said, "How do
people live like that?"
Greger Hoel
wrote:
>During World War II, the Glen Miller Orchestra was flying into London on a
>miserably cold and snowy night. Because conditions at the main airport were
>so bad, the plane was diverted to an outlying airfield, and the musicians
>had to walk in the storm for miles to get to their base. It was a terrible
>blizzard, with pounding snow and a relentless, searing wind. As the
>musicians carried their heavy bags and instruments down a dark county road,
>ankle deep in mud, they came across a tiny cottage. As they huddled near
>the front window, shivering miserably, they looked inside to see a family of
>five. A cozy fire was burning in the hearth, and the room glowed with its
>warmth. The mother was putting a hot, home-cooked meal on the table, while
>the father bounced a delighted baby boy on his knee. The two other children
>played happily before the fire, and their giggles filled the room. Before
>moving on, one of the musicians turned to the others and said, "How do
>people live like that?"
Hilarious! Keep 'em coming
--
Greger
______________________________________________
What's up Chuck?
To email me, replace everything after @ with softhome.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thom_j.
my semi'sorted, & unsorted comments on here leads many to believe
I am Mr Buffoon and thats kinda' the way I want it! :8^)' I use to get
into all these "esoteric" long discussions about art, music and life, but
as I have grown older I rather just read others comments, as they try
to joust it out here on Rmmgj... So for me, I just enjoy, & smile a lot
now! :8^)'
On the hunting of an S.O. etc. Well I think I mislead here as I'm not
in any real search I was just 'taken back' by your superb post and it
made me reflect! You're right, I feel it's almost non'existent in trying
to search for a life pardner. Usually when you least expect it, wham
there she/he is! To me it is all apart of the so called love process, if
you will.....
Also right now I have a 'very serious love challenge' that I'm taking
on here at home with my sick' elderly mom & this is my #1 priority
until she crosses the river jordon, but I digress....
Again, a superb post & I hope Anna & you have a long happy life
with each other! but of course it sounds like you are already there!
cheers thom_j.
"David Moss" <david.no...@anka.fzk.de> wrote in message
news:bgkssq$pebnb$1...@ID-90151.news.uni-berlin.de...
thom_j.
> I'll have to check my calendar and see which night I'm not playing...
> :)
> Frank
Hell Frank!! With a wife like yours, you better take her out *every*
night! :8^)' cheers thom_j.
> http://mp3.com/corps_of_discovery
> http://mp3.com/bzb
thom_j.
up to her...Oooooops wrong NG.. :8^)'.. cheers tee'jay
tomw
says...
> The following was in this morning's Globe:
>
> Do married men think?
>
> "Young men looking to make their mark may want to hold off on those
> wedding plans," says The Week magazine. "A study of the lives of 280
> successful scientists throughout history found that their creativity
> dried up once they wed. Two-thirds of the scientists made their most
> significant contributions to science before they hit their mid-30s and
> before they were married. Once the men settled down, they seemed to
> lose their edge -- while unmarried scientists continued to make great
> scientific contributions. Marriages has an equally dampening effect on
> musicians, painters and authors."
Just heard on the radio this morning that research has shown that
certain levels of stress will induce actual shrinking in part of the
brain. They're connecting this phenomenon to Alzheimer's and other
illnesses.
> So there you have it. Take the money you'd put aside for a diamond
> ring and get down to Duffy's for a snort.
>
>
I'm there!
thom_j.
> certain levels of stress will induce actual shrinking in part of the
> brain. They're connecting this phenomenon to Alzheimer's and other
> illnesses.
fwiw & a bit of fyi...
tomw, I have several research friends that are right in the middle of
all this. The way I understand it, you're basically spoton. Of course
they'll get into their $50k'words at times but I have to remind them,
I aint one of their "brainiacs!" :8^)' cheers t.j.
Richard Bornman
"tomw" <tw25R...@cornell.edu> wrote :
> I've been married for 30+ years(quit counting at 30). I was playing
> guitar before we met, and at various times I've played full time, part
> time, etc. There have been periods where Colette supported the family,
> and times when I've dropped out of bands in order to bring in more cash.
> Colette would always be the first to encourage me to get out there on
> the circuit, although that wouldn't stop her from complaining about the
> inconvenience and lack of financial remuneration that ensued. A
> relationship is dynamic: has highs and lows, there is growth(and
> sometimes shrinkage). When you love someone, you have to put them first
> -- that's really hard for an artist. If you put your art first, it's
> hard on the relationship. The marriage, the art; you have to finesse
> it. It's going to require strength, effor, and commitment. The
> relationship you share has got to be worth the effort; otherwise, you're
> better off with a pet. My own conclusion is that music doesn't occur in
> a vacuum: it accompanies life. If you don't have a life, music ain't
> worth a shit. YMMV
>
> Thanks for giving me the opportunity to mull this stuff over. It was
> overdue.
Tom,
Thanks for allowing ME to mull over your wise words!!
Inspiring!!
Kevin Van Sant
<3f2e738e...@news.interprise.net> :
>Let's see, over the years, she's had to contend with my:
>
>Music - playing in bands, gigging, taking lessons, gear, etc., etc.
>
>Getting a little home-recording setup in the basement. More gear.
>
>Playing hockey - game nights, leauge fees, GEAR :)
>
>Painting - setting up a studio, buying supplies (i.e., GEAR)
>
>Performing magic - gigs (minimal gear, since I did close-up magic)
>
>Performing stand-up comedy - gigs, fortunately no gear, but she had to
>put up with my material :)
>
>Learning to fly/buying an airplane - mucho GEAR!!
man, where do you find the time?
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Stan Fong
>>
>
> Why do I call this issue "space"? The difference in our relationship, and
> it is a real and substantial difference, is when we BOTH took and demanded
> space for ourselves as individuals to explore our separate passions. I
> think these real, different interests might apply to more than just artistic
> pursuits as well....
This is what my other half and I talked about when she first moved in
with me. From the very beginning, I told her we are a couple but
emphasized we are also individuals. We're are both very independent
and respect each other's indviduality. We still talk about this to
this day and both agree we wouldn't have it any other way. It's like
having the best of both worlds. Having and significant other and being
independent.
Stan
> Oscar
Bill Williams
many of us here by bringing up this topic.
In my relationship it has been an issue off and on because of time
allocation problems. I didn't gig for a number of years because of
this. At one stage I was holding down two jobs involving quite a bit
of responsibility and it was really difficult to reconcile regular
guitar practice and time with my partner and family – and here in
Portugal spending time with one's extended family is considered pretty
important.
My partner, Paula, (incidentally no same sex partners on the list? Now
that I come to think about it jazz in general would appear to be a
fairly gay-free zone - KD Laing doesn't count I guess. Strange that!
But a whole other thread I guess) is fairly supportive although not
particularly involved with music. She has had a couple of books
published and understands the creative process but her writing doesn't
imply regular practice in the way jazz guitar does.
However, over the last year or so things changed: I gave up one job,
Paula was away on contract in West Africa and I was at home with the
cats and our grownup son. This has enabled me to attend jazz school in
the evenings, rehearse with an ensemble and play some gigs again. So
what could have been a difficult time has actually been quite
fortuitous for me. My playing has come on quite a bit and I haven't
really had time to be lonely.
Talking of feeling lonely reminds me of how at one stage in the 80s I
was on a two and a half year contract in rural Mozambique, teaching at
an agricultural institute. Initially, I was terribly lonely – living
alone, no-one spoke English for miles around, my Portuguese at that
stage was ok for professional communication but not great for
socialising, there was no TV only BBC world service on the radio, no
beer, intermittent water and electricity and there was a war going on
which always threatened and at times directly impinged on our lives.
I did have my trusty old Yamaha flat top though and at the end of a
days work I used to sit out on the doorstep of my bungalow playing and
singing. Reckon that's what got me through the more difficult moments
and kept me sane. I started writing songs and did a bit of
woodshedding although I didn't know enough to really get to grips with
jazz at that stage.
It also helped socially. After a while I got to know local musicians
and ended up playing in 3 different groups. That's another important
part of playing, isn't it? Finding musical things in common with
people from other parts of the world even when you don't necessarily
share a spoken language or common culture.
Well, I've strayed from the original topic but I guess my experience
supports what others have said: in couple relationships, time and
attention allocation is generally going to be an issue that regularly
needs attention from musicians while at the same time playing can get
you through difficult periods as well as enabling you to have great
times (although not, in my case, great time)
Anyway, better get back to practising my demented 13th arpeggios in
all positions – life is too short and the old fingers aren't as nimble
as they used to be.
Bill Williams
tomw
richard...@ozemail.com.au says...
snip
> > Thanks for giving me the opportunity to mull this stuff over. It was
> > overdue.
>
> Tom,
> Thanks for allowing ME to mull over your wise words!!
> Inspiring!!
>
Thanks, Richard. You're too kind.
MBR
> relationship is dynamic: has highs and lows, there is growth(and
> sometimes shrinkage). When you love someone, you have to put them first
> -- that's really hard for an artist. If you put your art first, it's
> hard on the relationship. The marriage, the art; you have to finesse
> it. It's going to require strength, effor, and commitment.
That's it, exactly. You do have to finesse it. Then add a kid or two
to the situation. That requires finesse and and brute strength helps
too.
Mark Guest
Sorry about your split up. I guess they're never easy. I am lucky to have a
wife who is supportive of my musical addictions, even though she does not
share them. It's also a matter of balance, as I support her visual art
pursuits. We spend a similar amount of time and money on our hobbies. Do
either one of us devote "enough" time to our artistic pursuits? HAH! Not in
this world!
--
Mark Guest
Mark at MarkGuest.net
www.MarkGuest.net
"Rob Lewis" <robl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2d6a1f85.03080...@posting.google.com...
> Hey Adam,
>
> I'm sorry your marriage didn't work out. It sucks being alone (if you
> don't want to be).
>
> I agree with Steve. Successful relationships involve balance. I look
> at it like a budget. There is only so much time, energy and money.
> Some of that needs to go to running our household. Some of it goes to
> maintaining our good relationship. And some of it is for me alone to
> do with as I please.
>
> Without this last part, a marriage will feel stifling and invasive.
> And without the first parts, the spouse will feel resentful and put
> upon (rightfully so).
>
> So the trick is, getting with (and also yourself being) a person who
> is willing and able to do his/her part to create balance.
>
> So the spousal support thing comes, I think, from a mutual willingness
> to allow room for the needs of the other to be met in one way or
> another. It's not something the other person does or doesn't do for
> you. My opinion, FWIW. That and $5.95 will get you a mocha grande
> latte at Starbucks ;-)
>
> - Rob
MBR
> You know, potential spouses have a way of tolerating all sorts of things in
> the beginning.
===============
That's true. Some people, such as myself, don't know themselves very
well when they first get married. Sometimes it can take awhile to
figure out what you really need.
Max Leggett
A different wife and a new guitar. Next question. :-)
tomw
MBR
> In article <3f311e33....@News.CIS.DFN.DE>, mleg...@nospam.ca
> says...
> > On 6 Aug 2003 07:36:52 -0700, jazz...@hotmail.com (MBR) wrote:
> >
> > >"Margaret Wilson" <twok...@nospam.msn.com> wrote in message news:<bgkap...@enews4.newsguy.com>...
> > >> You know, potential spouses have a way of tolerating all sorts of things in
> > >> the beginning.
> > >===============
> > >That's true. Some people, such as myself, don't know themselves very
> > >well when they first get married. Sometimes it can take awhile to
> > >figure out what you really need.
> >
> > A different wife and a new guitar. Next question. :-)
> >
> >
> LOL! (props)
Wife's okay...I'll settle for the new guitar.
dbwalker
Jazz, but lets me go to weekly lessons, buy a second guitar and
practice late at night. we have been married for 17 years. My other
interests include origami, and sleight of hand card magic (35 years)
and while she will watch me perform magic, take the occassional model.
my hobbies are part of my world and as long as I am happy she is too .
I should also mention she is a liberal jewish democrat and I am a
black jewish republician. she is also a divoice lawyer.
david
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <455a0ae5.03080...@posting.google.com> :
>I should also mention she is a liberal jewish democrat and I am a
>black jewish republician. she is also a divoice lawyer.
hey, I think I saw that show once!
David Moss
"Kevin Van Sant" wrote...