Horror story about Henneken archtops

[nqbqbep]

I found this while I was googling luthier Markku Henneken from
Finland:

http://12review-henneken-guitar.blogspot.com/

I would be interested in reading more opinions about him in case some
fellow RMMGJers have experience with his guitars.

[drthoma...@gmail.com]

That sucks. It's not unusual to have some settling-in issues that
require adjustment, and wood does crack. But you expect a builder to
stand behind his product and take care of those things. This guy
sounds as bad as Roger Borys when it comes to customer satisfaction.

David Moss, the webmaster, used to post a lot in here, and has
mentioned his guitar.

[Nil]

On 11 Apr 2010, nqbqbep <isle.o...@gmail.com> wrote in
rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz:

Hmmm... the last post in that blog was in 2006. I wonder what, if
anything, has happened in the meantime? And the luthier's web site,
<http://www.henneken-archtops.com/> doesn't appear to have been altered
since 2004.

There's more here than meets the eye.

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<c0b1f651-709b-46a4...@r1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
nqbqbep <isle.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

No opinion about the guitars themselves, never having seen one, but I
have several thoughts about this type of situation.

1. Many boutique luthiers build guitars as a very part-time business,
just a few instruments a year and more a hobby than a vocation. Among
jazz guitars this is more common after Benedetto published his book and
videos about building archtop guitars.

2. Building a handful of guitars in five years is a very different
level of expertise than building hundreds or thousands over 10, 20, 50
years.

3. Many "innovations" by small builders are actually mistakes that have
been previously tried and rejected by larger makers (e.g., Gibson,
Guild, etc.). Wooden tailpieces pulled apart by string tension, for
example.

4. Large guitar makers can more easily buy, stockpile and properly
store better quality woods and get the wood at better prices due to
economies of scale.

5. Henekken's web site indicated it was last updated in 2005. That is
not an indication of an active business, IMHO.

6. It's easy to put up a Web site that makes one look like a master
craftsman without having any actual knowledge of building guitars.

7. Artisan businesses do not have a complaint department other than the
artisan, who may not be willing to admit making a mistake and may not be
able to afford to fix the mistake.

8. People enter into a new business venture frequently and the majority
of them go out of business within a year or two. That's just a fact of
market economics. Inadequate capitalization and a business idea that
wasn't as good as they thought are the two biggest causes.

[Marty]

On Apr 12, 1:51 am, van <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 11, 7:43 pm, "tombr...@jhu.edu" <drthomasfbr...@gmail.com>

> Tom,
>   Cut Roger some slack
> . Since I've gotten to know him, I've found that he doesn't suffer
> fools gladly, and most of those stories are "tales told by idiots".
> When I got a fret job done recently, for no extra price, he touched
> up, cleaned up and babied every micro-inch on that guitar to the
> extent that when guys who I've gigged with regularly for the last five
> years saw the guitar, they thought I got a new guitar!
> He's also suffered harassment from everyone from violent, psycho
> competitors, hicktown cops pissing on his door because he kept calling
> them to get rid of teenagers breaking into his shop and using it for
> parties, and customers that don't understand the one-man luthier
> process.
> Sure, you're going to say that you don't hear those stories with other
> luthiers, but did those luthiers make guitars for Emily Remler, Larry
> Coryell, Paul Bollenback, Jimmy Wyble, John Collins, Barry Galbraith,
> Larry Koonse, Mundell Lowe, Pat Kelley, Billy Bauer, Bucky Pizzarelli,
> Joe Pass and many others.
> And as my argument with "Sheets" showed, he never gave one of those
> guitars for free, except when he loaned Emily Remler one to do
> demonstrations on, because he was very close to Emily and wanted to
> see her succeed and make a little commission money selling his
> guitars.
> Gibson treated her like shit.
> He even cares so much about keeping the jazz guitar tradition going,
> he hooked me up with Bucky Pizzarelli so I can learn how to play my
> D'Angelico (Bucky has the same model) the way Bucky does, which is
> just awe-inspiring.

I got to know Roger when I moved up here to Vermont - he's a great
guy, and did a ton of work on my Rivera 7 string for only $300. (Built
a new bridge, rebuilt the tailpiece, etc.) I can also vouch for the
stories about the problems he had in his shop. I won't go into them
further, but Van knows what I'm talking about.

Roger's #1 in my book, and I'll defend him any day of the week.

[nqbqbep]

On Apr 12, 5:01 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article
> <c0b1f651-709b-46a4-b732-5f8f30555...@r1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,

One could easily argue for the opposite of many of your points. For
example, an independent luthier usually handpicks his woods, settling
for nothing than top grade wood, meaning either Master grade (or AAAA)
or AAA grade wood. A mass manufacturer obviously cannot do that, since
such high quality is not available in the large quantities he needs,
hand-selecting wood is time-consuming, and he needs to keep the cost
of his product down anyway. According to http://www.alliedlutherie.com/soundboards.htm
, most US factories use AA grade wood.

Similarly, a "complaint department" is not necessarily more efficient
than the artisan personally answering your emails. Well-respected
luthiers build their reputation mostly based on the quality of their
work and word-of-mouth, and over the course of many years. The same is
true for some large guitar manufacturers, but others rely more on hype
and aggressive advertising.

[Mark Cleary]

My biking friend has words of wisdom one would do good to listen to his
logic.

--
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Roman Catholic Church

[Jazzmann]

DUE TO THE ONSET OF INFLATION, MARKKU, HAS GONE ONTO OTHER ENDEAVORS, AS HE WASN'T ABLE TO SURVIVE BEING A ARCHTOP MAKER, HAVING GOTTEN OUT OF THE BUSINESS ABOUT 6 YEARS AGO...... THE WEBSITE HAS JUST RECENTLY BEEN TAKEN DOWN, ALL DUE IN PART THAT HE HAS INFORMED THE WEBSITE SERVICE HE WAS WITH TO DO SO, NOT MENTION A MATTER OF POSSIBLE FRAUD, BEING ANOTHER MAJOR CONCERN.......... IF YOU HAVE ISSUES OF PAYING FOR A ORDER, AND IT NOT BEING FILLED, FINLAND, DOES OFFER A COMPENSATION PROGRAM, WITH PROOF OF FRAUD.... FOR MORE INFORMATION, GOTO "VISIT FINLAND", FOR MORE DETAILS, ON HOW TO TAKE [LEGAL] RECOURSE ON ISSUES OF BUSINESS FRAUD........

[clevelandjazz]

This is why I have never ordered a custom archtop. I have heard too many horror stories. Why anyone would ever pay in advance for a guitar they have never heard just boggles my mind.

No matter how great the luthier is or how pretty the woods look that he uses, wood is wood. It's organic. Just because you select the beautiful woods that you want to use for your guitar doesn't mean the guitar is going to *SOUND* good.

I have bought a few used "boutique" archtops and for the most part was not super impressed with them. One in particular - a name that is often spoke of here in glowing accolades.

It's hard to beat a great 175, L5 or similar. I notice Jesse Van Ruller is now using an early '70s ES150d. It sounds great. There's something about old wood guitars that just gets it for me, and the shiny new boutique archtops don't necessarily "get it" though admittedly Peter Bernstein gets a great sound on whatever it is he's using.

[John A]

He plays a Zeidler; he bought it used and did not have it custom built. So there you go -- another satisfied user of the official Clevelandjazz guitar purchasing method (though perhaps not as prolific a purchaser as the method's originator).

John

[Mr. Maj6th]

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:12:31 -0700 (PDT), John A <ja...@nyc.rr.com>
wrote:

I am 69 years old and (quite literally) have been playing one
instrument or another since a baby, I now believe it is the player
that makes the most difference in how any instrument sounds: the rest
is just smoke and mirrors.

When I attended a HR seminar in the seventies, one of the participants
asked for HR's pick, he then traced it on a piece of paper. I never
will forget the look of astonishment on HR's face; smoke and mirrors
all.

Maj6th

[Gerry]

On 2015-03-19 17:43:35 +0000, Mr. Maj6th said:

> I am 69 years old and (quite literally) have been playing one
> instrument or another since a baby, I now believe it is the player
> that makes the most difference in how any instrument sounds: the rest
> is just smoke and mirrors.

Buzzes, rattles, dead zones and wolf tones--I guess I don't have the
hands to overcome that.

> When I attended a HR seminar in the seventies, one of the participants
> asked for HR's pick, he then traced it on a piece of paper. I never
> will forget the look of astonishment on HR's face; smoke and mirrors
> all.

Pick shape and composition mean nothing? Maybe not, we can all
acclimate to anything given enough time. Still, there's something to
be said for the confidence that using a "lucky pick", or wearing a
"lucky shirt" provides. That too is all about the player.
--
Sunday is my new usenet day. All the others are for fun.

[Mr. Maj6th]

I once had a female student who offered to show me her lucky G-string,
I declined.

Maj6th

[clevelandjazz]

actually he's playing a '70s ES150d now. He's doing more stuff with a bridge pickup.

[Tim McNamara]

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:12:31 -0700 (PDT), John A <ja...@nyc.rr.com>
wrote:

LOL! But I too prefer Jack's method of playing the guitar before I
plunk down cash for it. I have twice bought guitars without playing
them first and had good luck, but the risks are high (unethical or
ignorant sellers abound). Given how utterly personal the feel and sound
of a guitar is, I would have a hard time ordering a guitar to be built
for me.

[David J. Littleboy]

"Tim McNamara" wrote:
>
>LOL! But I too prefer Jack's method of playing the guitar before I
>plunk down cash for it. I have twice bought guitars without playing
>them first and had good luck, but the risks are high (unethical or
>ignorant sellers abound). Given how utterly personal the feel and sound
>of a guitar is, I would have a hard time ordering a guitar to be built
>for me.

Of my five current guitars, I only played one before I bought it, and that's
the one I'm least happy with. (Although some of that is pickup hassles*.)
It's a custom OOO-28 with the same top/bracing specs as the "45" models (and
the Eric Clapton signature models) but without the bling and price (it was
fairly recent used instrument, so it was cheaper than a new generic OOO-28).
In the store, I A/B'ed it against a new bog-standard OOO-28 and it was way
nicer. But I'm not really bonding to it. Dunno why.

Go figure.

The (custom ordered 16" generic carved top archtop) Holst, the 1952 Gibson
L-4C, the Carvin Holdsworth model, and the Heritage L-4C look-alike (thanks
Jim Soloway!) are all keepers.

*: I wanted the LRBaggs ibeam pickup, which is basically a long thin contact
mic. But the X-bracing in this guitar meant there wasn't space for it, so I
went with the LRBaggs Anthem, which is way too harsh. I ripped out the
Anthem and put in a Fishman in-sound-hole humbucker, which, with an LRBaggs
outrigger preamp, sounds quite reasonable but is kind of a pain. I have a
K&K Sound super-mini contact mic, but it's a pain to install. It'll still
require the outrigger preamp, but at least it won't have a cable permanently
coming out of the sound hole.

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[Tony Done]

I'm not a jazz player, but I've fought this and related battles on many
different (guitar) fronts over the years. Here's one that is somewhat
jazz-related. Why spend many thousands of dollars on an "acoustic"
archtop guitar, then fit is with skinny strings and pickups? I think you
can argue in favour in many different ways, but one of them isn't, IMO,
functionality.

FWIW, I would never again order a custom guitar. I would now favour the
boutique makers, and used, if I was buying mail order.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Gerry]

On 2015-03-20 23:08:52 +0000, Tony Done said:

> I'm not a jazz player, but I've fought this and related battles on many
> different (guitar) fronts over the years. Here's one that is somewhat
> jazz-related. Why spend many thousands of dollars on an "acoustic"
> archtop guitar, then fit is with skinny strings and pickups?

I'm unsure what gauge is implied when you say "skinny".

Perhaps this: You buy it to be functional as both acoustic and
electric, but the electric end is your dominant approach and for that
you like light gauge strings. Or this: You buy it to be functional
both ways, but then find your wrists begin to age so you must lighten
the gauge.

> I think you can argue in favour in many different ways, but one of them
> isn't, IMO,
> functionality.

I think you can argue for functionality any kind of way, but that
function may not be your approach.

> FWIW, I would never again order a custom guitar. I would now favour the
> boutique makers, and used, if I was buying mail order.

I've bought two guitars used that were delivered. One was a new
acoustic, Epiphone Masterbilt EF500Ra. I played it for five minutes
and knew it was wrong for me. The other was a used solidbody Moore and
it had too many issues that needed to be corrected.

But I too, have likely bought my last mail-order guitar.

[David J. Littleboy]

"Gerry" wrote:
>
>But I too, have likely bought my last mail-order guitar.

But there's drool all over my keyboard:

http://www.archtop.com/ac_93andersen_metro.html

[Tony Done]

OK. I call skinny less than 12s, and I think that is being generous in
the context of jazz archtops. - I stand to be corrected on that, maybe
there are acoustic archtops specifically designed for light strings, and
that is where you option could fit. For me functionality is getting the
job done - good acoustic and/or electric tone tone (take yer pick), nice
neck, no structural issues. I'm not sympathetic to the notion of having
a nice acoustic and then turning into a purely electric guitar, or
spending huge sums on an electric built to look like an acoustic. I
would happy to buy something like a Stromberg for mojo, but I wouldn't
put skinny strings on it and turn it functionally into an electric.

I've had mixed success with mail order. The Bourgeois is fantastic, but
I put a lot of research into that, and got a little help from my
internet friends on the specific instrument. The other two, my Beltona
tricone and 1934-ish Gibson had a lot of issues, but I persisted with them.

[Gerry]

On 2015-03-21 00:56:32 +0000, David J. Littleboy said:

> "Gerry" wrote:
>>
>> But I too, have likely bought my last mail-order guitar.
>
> But there's drool all over my keyboard:
>
> http://www.archtop.com/ac_93andersen_metro.html

I should say I've bought my last mail-order that doesn't have some kind
of return policy.

[Gerry]

On 2015-03-21 03:42:08 +0000, Tony Done said:

> OK. I call skinny less than 12s, and I think that is being generous in

> the context of jazz archtops. - I stand to be corrected on that,...

You can't be corrected on that--it's your own viewpoint! Right now, I
don't play 12's, so if I'm playing an archtop it's 11's. I sure hope
you're not offended by the way I live my inexcusably pathetic life!

> ...maybe there are acoustic archtops specifically designed for light

> strings, and that is where you option could fit. For me functionality
> is getting the job done - good acoustic and/or electric tone tone (take
> yer pick), nice neck, no structural issues. I'm not sympathetic to the
> notion of having a nice acoustic and then turning into a purely
> electric guitar, or spending huge sums on an electric built to look
> like an acoustic. I would happy to buy something like a Stromberg for
> mojo, but I wouldn't put skinny strings on it and turn it functionally
> into an electric.

For everyone it's a question of balance, and that's different for each
of us. I'd play all my guitars with 15's if I had the fingers/wrists
for it--I don't. And I play with my nails, so that makes it even
tougher to get dynamics out of picking on heavy gauge strings. And for
me, dynamics are critically important.

> I've had mixed success with mail order. The Bourgeois is fantastic, but
> I put a lot of research into that, and got a little help from my
> internet friends on the specific instrument. The other two, my Beltona
> tricone and 1934-ish Gibson had a lot of issues, but I persisted with
> them.
--

[Tony Done]

On 3/21/2015 4:11 PM, Gerry wrote:
> On 2015-03-21 03:42:08 +0000, Tony Done said:
>
>> OK. I call skinny less than 12s, and I think that is being generous in
>> the context of jazz archtops. - I stand to be corrected on that,...
>
> You can't be corrected on that--it's your own viewpoint! Right now, I
> don't play 12's, so if I'm playing an archtop it's 11's. I sure hope
> you're not offended by the way I live my inexcusably pathetic life!
>

Corrected - I meant guitar designed for light strings - Selmer style
maybe? And your life doesn't sound either poor or pathetic to me, ya
body might be wearing out, but yer mind seems to be working just fine. :)

>
> For everyone it's a question of balance, and that's different for each
> of us. I'd play all my guitars with 15's if I had the fingers/wrists
> for it--I don't. And I play with my nails, so that makes it even
> tougher to get dynamics out of picking on heavy gauge strings. And for
> me, dynamics are critically important.

There are exceptions to any rule, and they often prove (ie test) it.
Your comment about dynamics reminded my of Bert Jansch, a very dynamic
player who used 11s on his acoustics, with finger picks. OTOH, those big
jazz boxes were designed to be heard in a band situation, in competition
with trumpets and the like. Dunno, I'm still good with 13s, for now, (70
tomorrow!) but I can see taking some steps back as I get older. I don't
think I could bear to do it with my current guitars though, the change
would make me miserable. I would have to go to a different style of
guitar, maybe a fusion-style nylon string.