Trashing Other People's Playing
335
too? I never encountered it before until I got involved in jazz.
People openly insulting other people's playing. I started with rock,
switched to bluegrass and country swing, moved on to Django and
eventually discovered bop. In all the time I spent in those other
genres up until bop I can't remember hearing musicians diss other
musicians in the way jazz musicians sometimes do to each other.
In one particular situation I took a lesson from a very well known
jazz player who went on a tirade about my choice of guitar ( es 175)
my pick ( a Gibson USA heavy), and my band (a goodman influenced swing
outfit). This guy was known to ask his students when they were leaving
town evidently because he resented the competition for gigs.
Maybe it's the competition, the pressure and practice required to
develop and keep the chops, the insecurity of not cutting it that puts
people on edge. I don't know. Maybe classical players are even worse.
I'd always hoped jazz guitar could be a fraternity of sorts and it is
at times, but there is a real edginess and near paranoia about it too
that makes me wonder if jazz is a very healthy place to be. Just
thinking out loud...I guess that HM thread got me to wondering about
this. Maybe I should have stuck with Woody Guthrie and Laedbelly...
nobody cared if you weren't a virtuoso.
rpjazzguitar
vitriol. And some do it right to your face. I study with a teacher
who, if a player does something wrong will say "why did you do that"
in an angry tone and has no real interest in the answer. For some
reason, he has to go thru this on his way to telling the player what
to do instead.
But, for the sake of balance, more often the problem is the opposite,
sort of. That is, people who are too polite to say what's wrong with
your playing. And, if nobody will tell you, it's harder to find out.
David Raleigh Arnold
> Is this specific to jazz players or does this happen in other genres
> too? I never encountered it before until I got involved in jazz. People
> openly insulting other people's playing.
I'm not gigging any more, so I hadn't noticed.
I think the cause is the disappearance of the jam session with
sitting-in. People used to have the opportunity to prove themselves by
"cutting" each other with their "axes", so they could be obliged to put
up or shut up. Frustration leads to aggression. Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
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Jens W
"335" <335p...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:98466452-9407-4f01...@g21g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> Is this specific to jazz players or does this happen in other genres
> too? I never encountered it before until I got involved in jazz.
> People openly insulting other people's playing. I started with rock,
As an amateur musician in Germany, my experience is completely the opposite.
"Encouragement" is what I get for the most part from musicians who have
better command of their instrument than I do.
Maybe I am not dangerous enough when it comes to competition to deserve
trashing?
Seriously, this type of behaviour should not be part of anybody's musical
experience. If it is part of yours, get away from these people. Music, no
matter how simple or difficult, is a gift given to all of us. The "quality
of the music produced" (if such a thing can be defined) is just one aspect
of the overall thing. What about your own experience?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kything - or call it what you want really - is
why I play music, and it cannot happen if we try to keep each other down.
Great White Buffalo
Hey, if trashing someone else will make me even seem like a better
player, I'm all for it! :)-
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message
<98466452-9407-4f01...@g21g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> :
I think most people who are out in the wild with them a lot will tell
you that the majority of jazz musicians are a down to earth, friendly,
and supportive bunch. The thing is still that they are all people
and as such there will always be "issues". Such is life. There
are individuals in all walks of life who are edgy and paranoid or
competitive. Personally I find the ratio's of assholes among jazz
musicians to be substantially smaller than the general population at
large.
The internet on the other hand is not real life, I don't think you can
draw any conclusions about jazz musicians as a whole based on what you
encounter on an internet forum. The participants probably aren't a
very representative cross sampling and anonymity seems to bring out
the worst in people. Besides, I've been told the classical groups
are much more brutal :)
...actually, if you want to hear some really crazy talk of paranoia,
competition, back stabbing, and sexual politics, talk to a member of
any major classical orchestra.
________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
all my CDs in Mp3 form at:
http://www.kevinvansant.com
tom walls
> too? I never encountered it before until I got involved in jazz.
My experience is very different from yours. Back in the day when I was
playing rock, musicians were always trashing one another, and it was
very personal. It was as likely to be based on stylistic preferences
as chops, although chops, or lack of, was also grounds for a good
trashing. Any time you get a bunch of young men together, there is
bound to be a lot of trash talking.
Mark Kleinhaut
There are dik-wads everywhere in all walks of life. Just cross the
street when you see them coming:)
rakmanenuff
> competition,
> that makes me wonder if jazz is a very healthy place to be.
Competition is good for health.
rlemos...@gmail.com
Great post. I don't think this type of "bashing" behavior is limited
to jazz or jazz guitar. You find it everywhere. For example, Jaime
Kennedy has a great movie, "Heckler" where he takes on the hecklers
that stand-up comics have to endure and deal with. I have experienced
and seen bashing in this newsgroup. However, in the Yahoo jazz guitar
newsgroup, the vibe is much more supportive and tolerant. Being bashed
does hurt. You might have hundreds of positive feedback moments, but
the one or two negative responses stick in you mind. However, if you
want to "put yourself out there", you have to learn to deal with all
types of rejection. In terms of jazz guitar, I have found that the
bigger the talent, the more support is given. For example, I have
received extremely positive feedback on my work from Jimmy Bruno, Ron
Anthony (Frank Sinatra, George Shearing), Robert Conti and others.
Other than the personal attacks, the posts that sadden me the most are
the ones that (1) flame diminishing skills due to age/illness (e.g.,
Howard Morgan), (2) criticize proven musicians that are "caught on
tape" not doing their best, (3) respond with "I don't like/understand
this music" so it is terrible (e.g., Derek Bailey), (4) judge other's
work with "I didn't invent this approach so it is not any good even if
many people find it useful" (lego bricks system), (5) proclaim "this
person should be ashamed for taking this gig/project" (Barney Kessel
doing early pop). When you are "attacked", you have two choices--
ignore or fight back. Even though it hurts, I believe it is best to
try to ignore. Life to too short. Focus on the positive feedback.
Fighting back just escalates the attacks and never creates a better
situation. Also, try to lead by example. Civility and tolerance are in
short supply in many aspects of our lives. Remember what your parents
taught, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".
Regards, Ron.
Gerry
> Is this specific to jazz players or does this happen in other genres
> too? I never encountered it before until I got involved in jazz.
> People openly insulting other people's playing. I started with rock,
> switched to bluegrass and country swing, moved on to Django and
> eventually discovered bop. In all the time I spent in those other
> genres up until bop I can't remember hearing musicians diss other
> musicians in the way jazz musicians sometimes do to each other.
I think there are any number of reasons one might be inclined to find
these guys in jazz easier than in other musics. But I'll cut to the
chase: They're pricks. Some people find the "tough love" concept
helpful, or "not mincing words, but speaking directly". But in the end
they are pricks that need to knock down others to make themselves feel
better.
Even when I loath someone have a hard time busting them up personally.
> In one particular situation I took a lesson from a very well known
> jazz player who went on a tirade about my choice of guitar ( es 175)
> my pick ( a Gibson USA heavy), and my band (a goodman influenced swing
> outfit). This guy was known to ask his students when they were leaving
> town evidently because he resented the competition for gigs.
Yeah, he's a good example not only of a prick, but of a really bad
teacher. I don't care how much information or insight he provides, if
he leaves a 5 inch scar on your sense of self, he's a shitty teacher.
> Maybe it's the competition, the pressure and practice required to
> develop and keep the chops, the insecurity of not cutting it that puts
> people on edge. I don't know. Maybe classical players are even worse.
> I'd always hoped jazz guitar could be a fraternity of sorts and it is
> at times, but there is a real edginess and near paranoia about it too
> that makes me wonder if jazz is a very healthy place to be. Just
> thinking out loud...I guess that HM thread got me to wondering about
> this. Maybe I should have stuck with Woody Guthrie and Laedbelly...
> nobody cared if you weren't a virtuoso.
I think it's better known with that kind of music that personality and
individual vision counts for a lot more than athleticism and
one-upmanship.
I really follow your thinking on this, by the way. I started with folk,
blues and rock. I delighted in the comradarie and the eagerness with
which young players exchanged licks and concepts and stuff. But we
were young too and perhaps that was the main thing. Many of the
attitudes may have been birthed by many years of bitter experience,
hurt feelings, low self esteem and regrets. Who knows!
Gerry
Care to expand on that?
Gerry
You seem to be going back and forth between people's opinions on known
players' approaches and personal attacks. I think having a negative
opinion on Howard Morgen or Derek Bailey isn't the same thing as
lessons with a teacher that belittles you, or people telling you to
your face that you suck in front of others.
These are very different things.
rakmanenuff
> > Competition is good for health.
>
> Care to expand on that?
The desire for praise and fear of criticism is
an inbuilt mechanism that motivates human beings
and animals into action. Removing that aspect will not
make a musical scene more healthy, it will
only breed stagnation.
It takes someone totally obsessed with their
field to stay motivated over a long time period
without the desire for praise, money, etc and
fear of failure, fear of not staying interesting
or relevant etc, as incentives.
If a negative comment is genuine, that's either
*nothing*, (if the person has a balanced view
of things without too much ego and too many
"issues"), or it's something that can help them
improve or at least make them angry enough
to pick up the guitar.
If the person making the point is being ignorant,
the question is: why would a performer
*not* want to reach ignorant people and entertain
them as part of their audience?
If it's an insincere comment, that would fall
under the category "Usenet Trolling". The internet
is like a cat flap, you get one so your cat can
go out in the garden, but then when you get rats, snakes,
spiders and ants coming in through the same flap,
you get the pest control in to killfile the bitches.
Jim Soloway
>
> In one particular situation I took a lesson from a very well known
> jazz player who went on a tirade about my choice of guitar ( es 175)
> my pick ( a Gibson USA heavy), and my band (a goodman influenced swing
> outfit). This guy was known to ask his students when they were leaving
> town evidently because he resented the competition for gigs.
>
Time for a new teacher. There's nothing wrong with criticism but
there's no excuse for behavior like that and no reason to give your
money to someone who feels that it's their right to be abusive.
Gerry
> On May 14, 3:47�pm, Gerry <somewh...@sunny.calif> wrote:
>
>>> Competition is good for health.
>>
>> Care to expand on that?
>
> The desire for praise and fear of criticism is
> an inbuilt mechanism that motivates human beings
> and animals into action. Removing that aspect will not
> make a musical scene more healthy, it will
> only breed stagnation.
An interesting opinion. A "fear of criticism" should have led our
greatest innovators to be non-innovative. So I guess this is only
applicable to cherry-picked examples. I think you may need to define
what you mean by "competition" for us to discuss, and likely "health"
as well.
> It takes someone totally obsessed with their
> field to stay motivated over a long time period
> without the desire for praise, money, etc and
> fear of failure, fear of not staying interesting
> or relevant etc, as incentives.
I agree, as someone with a focused interest on music all my life. But
am unsure how there's any competition involved there to make me more or
less healthful. Or are you saying that not "competing" (here I assume
it means "hustling for gigs"), has been unhealthful?
> If a negative comment is genuine, that's either
> *nothing*, (if the person has a balanced view
> of things without too much ego and too many
> "issues"), or it's something that can help them
> improve or at least make them angry enough
> to pick up the guitar.
"Negative comment". "Genuine negative". Hmm. Words can be hard to
marshall to a task. If a teacher provides information born of their own
musical limitations, of their own biases or fears, to a student--what?
Students are invulnerable? The idea of motivating a student by
negative comments is wrong, and the kind of thing
players-turned-teachers frequently don't understand. Certainly people
have been motivated in this way, but this is not "teaching"; it's
manipulation. Some people have been motivated to greatness by the loss
of a parent. But a good teacher doesn't kill a student's parents to
"educate" them.
Being told you suck by people you don't respect and then working harder
to disprove them isn't the same thing as being told you suck by a
teacher you respect.
> If the person making the point is being ignorant,
> the question is: why would a performer
> *not* want to reach ignorant people and entertain
> them as part of their audience?
Sorry. I can't follow that statement. Working hard to please people who
have no understanding of what you're doing and consequently no
aesthetic that would encompass it seems like a particularly needless
task. It's tough enough to "entertain" people who like jazz and guitar.
I've always felt like torquing your intent to match a know-nothing's
preferences is a sure path to self-destruction.
> If it's an insincere comment, that would fall
> under the category "Usenet Trolling".
I think you've slipped out of gear. I was referring to 335's experience
with a prick who called himself a "teacher". I think bad teachers (and
folks in general) can be completely sincere in what they believe, and
say that a player is lame or that there music is boring or that their
technique is sloppy. On the other hand they can be using this
"sincerity" with the intent of wounding another. There are a lot of fat
people on earth, but there is a dramaticaly smaller group of people
that feel the need to seek them out and "educate them" by calling them
a fat slob.
You didn't think you made any correlation between competition and good health.
-- Gerry
Gerry
So very true. The sad thing is that teacher's like this dissuade so
many potentially promising novices. Not just from abuse, but from a
genuine lack of understanding about what they are doing. They can
play. That's great, but it doesn't make you any kind of teacher.
In the 90's I studied classical guitar with Gregory Coleman. In his
late-40's he mentioned that he'd been teaching since he was in his
teens, having gotten his dad's throw-away students. His dad was Bud
Coleman a studio player who played with the Baja Marimba band. Just
musing on the topic I said, "You began teaching at 16? Jeez: How many
years before you stopped ruining students?" He laughed and quickly
responded, "About fifteen years."
I taught for a couple of years in the 70's. I set impossible tasks for
my students, and didn't provide them the things that THEY wanted to do
on the guitar. One particularly good kid finally complained saying that
his buddy was taking lessons and he was learning songs by Elton John
and Stevie Wonder, so why couldn't we do that? I gave it a shot for a
couple of weeks and then told him to get with his buddy's teacher.
I was a crummy teacher. But at least I wasn't evil. I think I'd be a
much better teacher now... for anybody that specifically wanted to
learn to play jazz guitar!
335
It's kind of funny really. This particular guy is very technique
oriented and has monster chops. At the time I was having some hand
pain so I went to him for an evaluation of my technique. He actually
thought my technique was okay but for some reason he couldn't resist
getting in my face about all this other stuff.
rakmanenuff
> > The desire for praise and fear of criticism is
> > an inbuilt mechanism that motivates human beings
> > and animals into action. Removing that aspect will not
> > make a musical scene more healthy, it will
> > only breed stagnation.
>
> An interesting opinion. A "fear of criticism" should have led our
> greatest innovators to be non-innovative.
Maybe we should start making one-sided coins.
> So I guess this is only
> applicable to cherry-picked examples. I think you may need to define
> what you mean by "competition" for us to discuss, and likely "health"
> as well.
The social dynamics of competition, praise and criticism is what
I was talking about.
Not competition with self or the task itself, which has nothing
to do with trashing or comments. IMO social interaction with other ppl
can be important for a person's motivation, and in turn health.
> "Negative comment". "Genuine negative". Hmm. Words can be hard to
> marshall to a task. If a teacher provides information born of their own
> musical limitations, of their own biases or fears, to a student--what?
> Students are invulnerable? The idea of motivating a student by
> negative comments is wrong, and the kind of thing
> players-turned-teachers frequently don't understand. Certainly people
> have been motivated in this way, but this is not "teaching"; it's
> manipulation. Some people have been motivated to greatness by the loss
> of a parent. But a good teacher doesn't kill a student's parents to
> "educate" them.
Why is there a tradition of sergeants shouting at new recruits?
Is the sergeant being a useful prick or just a prick?
What if a guitar teacher is being nice, positive and helpful for
a whole year, then loses his patience with a lazy student?
Did that teacher just turn prick overnight for no reason?
Who knows what's the most constructive way of dealing
with such a situation is.
> Sorry. I can't follow that statement. Working hard to please people who
> have no understanding of what you're doing and consequently no
> aesthetic that would encompass it seems like a particularly needless
> task. It's tough enough to "entertain" people who like jazz and guitar.
> I've always felt like torquing your intent to match a know-nothing's
> preferences is a sure path to self-destruction.
To keep people interested,
regardless of their aesthetic or level of understanding,
the music has to have a certain degree of "freshness".
> > If it's an insincere comment, that would fall
> > under the category "Usenet Trolling".
>
> I think you've slipped out of gear.
How so? The thread is about trashing, and the OP said it
was the "HM thread that got him wondering".
I thought the most manipulative comment there was
the one about what guitarists "should" and should
not aspire to, and I was really offended by the anti-
shred sentiments :)
I was just saying that a troll comment can't be regarded
as a genuine statement, and also including a comment
from someone ignorant as a possible trashing. Didn't
see anything like that in the "HM thread" though.
>There are a lot of fat
> people on earth, but there is a dramaticaly smaller group of people
> that feel the need to seek them out and "educate them" by calling them
> a fat slob.
If they're so fat they're being unproductive and they
get false stimulus packages instead of being pressurized
to innovate and contribute, then that's not healthy, as such.
>
> You didn't think you made any correlation between competition and good health.
So I didn't I think i did, did I? I thought I did, didn't I?
Jim Soloway
> Why is there a tradition of sergeants shouting at new recruits?
> Is the sergeant being a useful prick or just a prick?
>
> What if a guitar teacher is being nice, positive and helpful for
> a whole year, then loses his patience with a lazy student?
> Did that teacher just turn prick overnight for no reason?
> Who knows what's the most constructive way of dealing
> with such a situation is.
>
There is a very big difference between criticism and abuse. I expect
a good teacher to be critical but I don't believe they have any excuse
for being abusive. and if I wanted a sergeant shouting in my face,
I'd join the army. If someone treated me like that in a less, I'd
tell them to fuck off and walk out without paying them.
rpjazzguitar
I'm not posting in support of verbal abuse, but ...
One small silver lining is that the gruff (or worse) teacher may, in
the process of trashing your feelings, actually inform you about
problems in your playing that others are too polite to mention.
I recall transcribing some chords incorrectly years ago and having my
teacher tell me that he liked my changes better. I'd have been better
served by a teacher who said "what was that you deaf SOB, get some ear
training!"
Of course, there's a middle ground, but I haven't found many teachers
who tell you what you need to know about the negatives in the
uniformly pleasant way. Maybe one of five major teachers I've had.
Charlie X
Yea..sounds like he bought a 'bill o goods' huh?
Gerry
>> Certainly people have been motivated in this way, but this is not
>> "teaching"; it's
>> manipulation. Some people have been motivated to greatness by the loss
>> of a parent. But a good teacher doesn't kill a student's parents to
>> "educate" them.
>
> Why is there a tradition of sergeants shouting at new recruits?
> Is the sergeant being a useful prick or just a prick?
Their intent is different: They are doing that to break down a
soldier's inclination to "personal opinion", "independence", etc. If a
drill-sergeant's job is done correctly the soldier will do as
instructed for his commanding officers even when that means facing sure
death.
That's not what one is attempting to accomplish by teaching a guitarist.
> What if a guitar teacher is being nice, positive and helpful for
> a whole year, then loses his patience with a lazy student?
> Did that teacher just turn prick overnight for no reason?
> Who knows what's the most constructive way of dealing
> with such a situation is.
A knowledgeable teacher knows constructive way for doing this. Killer
chops don't make a teacher, though.
When a student is lazy, "being nice and positive" isn't what's called
for. You point out that a student is being lazy; you'll be glad to take
his money but he's never going to become a player that way. Perhaps you
let him know that it is a drag teaching a "bookmark" like him, just
showing up each week and apologizing. You point that out from time to
time and try to find materials that will motivate him. Abuse sometimes
works as a motivator, but it's a difficult thing to finesse, and I
don't trust it to guitarists who couldn't find enough work in their
intended profession.
TD
Of course it is in the real world, and is not restricted to jazz
guitar or even music for that matter. But I do not see it one tenth as
much in the real world as I see it here in this bullshit venue. The
put-downing is mostly instigated by novices or hobbyists or wanna-bees
who appear to want to punish full time players ( players who have
paid their dues 100x over and never laid their sword down to work the
farm, or it seems aimed at that particular variety, and never hurt
anyone either way) in some way and for whatever reason. Even if a
player is down for the count, there will always be some one who will
step on his head. It is basic human nature to hurt, which is the flip
side of basic human nature towards compassion and a little respect. We
can't have good without evil they say, right? It ain't easy out there
in the real *uncushioned* world for a player. Let's see one of the
jive ass put-downers try it. Oh wait a second...it's too late, isn't
it?
-TD
Rick Stone
> If a
> drill-sergeant's job is done correctly the soldier will do as instructed
> for his commanding officers even when that means facing sure death.
>
> That's not what one is attempting to accomplish by teaching a guitarist.
It's not???? oh crap! ;-)
--
Rick Stone
website: www.rickstone.com
Some of My Other sites: www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
www.facebook.com/rickstonemusic www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
www.reverbnation.com/rickstone www.youtube.com/jazzand
www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand http://jazzguitarny.ning.com
Gerry
> Gerry wrote:
>> If a drill-sergeant's job is done correctly the soldier will do as instructed
>> for his commanding officers even when that means facing sure death.
>>
>> That's not what one is attempting to accomplish by teaching a guitarist.
>
> It's not???? oh crap! ;-)
On the other hand, you now have 5 students that know how to kill a man
20 ways with a Fender guitar pick!
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> On the other hand, you now have 5 students that know how to kill a man
> 20 ways with a Fender guitar pick!
aka "Untitled Tarantino Project"
Joe Finn
> Is this specific to jazz players or does this happen in other genres
> too? I never encountered it before until I got involved in jazz.
> People openly insulting other people's playing. I started with rock,
> switched to bluegrass and country swing, moved on to Django and
> eventually discovered bop. In all the time I spent in those other
> genres up until bop I can't remember hearing musicians diss other
> musicians in the way jazz musicians sometimes do to each other.
>
> In one particular situation I took a lesson from a very well known
> jazz player who went on a tirade about my choice of guitar ( es 175)
> my pick ( a Gibson USA heavy), and my band (a goodman influenced swing
> outfit). This guy was known to ask his students when they were leaving
> town evidently because he resented the competition for gigs.
>
> Maybe it's the competition, the pressure and practice required to
> develop and keep the chops, the insecurity of not cutting it that puts
> people on edge. I don't know. Maybe classical players are even worse.
> I'd always hoped jazz guitar could be a fraternity of sorts and it is
> at times, but there is a real edginess and near paranoia about it too
> that makes me wonder if jazz is a very healthy place to be. Just
> thinking out loud...I guess that HM thread got me to wondering about
> this. Maybe I should have stuck with Woody Guthrie and Laedbelly...
> nobody cared if you weren't a virtuoso.
My experience has been that most people in jazz are very supportive and
collegial. Naturally there are exceptions. Since jazz is essentially a "team
sport" most of the players tend to develop good interpersonal skills and are
sociable and friendly. I've encountered much more interpersonal nastiness
outside of jazz. ...joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Or say hello via Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
Peter Huggins
jazz player who went on a tirade about my choice of guitar ( es 175) my
pick ( a Gibson USA heavy), and my band (a goodman influenced swing
outfit). >>>
That's funny, These are like classic jazz appointments... I have to
ask what the guy would've preferred you using, and what kind of band you
should have been in instead? grin.
<<< This guy was known to ask his students when they were leaving town
evidently because he resented the competition for gigs. >>>
well business is business, but geez, whatta schnook
if mail to this address bounces, please forward to :
guitarmaniax 'at' msn.com
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" We had a knob, and all we had to do was turn it." - Les Paul
Grins, Peter
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/THISISTHE
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campfire
I remember first hearing about this forum many years ago, from a
friend who told me that a member of this forum (who shall remain
nameless) was bashing my playing on here. I didn't even know this guy
at the time, and my feelings were really hurt when I looked up this
group and read it. People can be very petty and insecure, and try to
put others down to compensate. On the bright side, I guess I can
thank this guy for introducing me to this newsgroup, and all the cool
info and people I've experienced. He unintentionally did me a favor!
Most of the jazz community I've been associated with over the years
are really supportive people. Yes, even guitarists! You'd be hard
pressed to find better, kinder, more helpful folks than Jimmy Bruno,
Howard Alden, Rick Breeden, Russ Hanchin, Paul Bollenbach and Sheryl
Bailey, to name just a few of the people I have met and/or played
with.
Larry Camp
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
"He unintentionally did me a favor!"
You can almost always discover a truffle within a pile of shit.
-TD
Frisbieinstein
>
> Of course it is in the real world, and is not restricted to jazz
> guitar or even music for that matter. But I do not see it one tenth as
> much in the real world as I see it here in this bullshit venue.
Believe me, this is a Parthenon of politeness compared with the
average usenet group.
335
he wanted me to play with the same gear he was using. I'm not positive
but he may have been working on an endorsement deal with the company
that made the asian import guitar he was using at the time. The Gibson
USA was deemed too slippery and was the "worse pick" ever made. the
ones with the hole punched into them were supposedly much better. as
far as my band was concerned, there was no point in playing swing
because jazz rhythm had changed forever with bebop.
Peter Huggins
made. the ones with the hole punched into them were supposedly much
better. >>>
I believe you are talking about the black celluloid, half-round Gibson
pick, like a teardrop but fatter? This was originally known as the 'Les
Paul' pick; early examples had Les Paul' printed on them in gold, later
on they were marked 'Gibson' under a star (Les talked about meeting
Django in NYC 1947- when Django asked Les for a plectrum, Les reached
into his pocket and came up with half a dozen different types. Django
selected the Les Paul pick- ..."and I doubt that he knew it was mine") .
The 'Gibson USA' was a later designation which continues to this day
although Gibson does not offer that shape any more. It kind of sucks, I
know several jazz players here in LA and elsewhere who have expressed a
preference for this pick. Barry Zweig finally gave up and ordered a
gross of Fender picks in this shape, but not of the same material...
from Michael Anthony to Ulf Wakenius they are still searching them out
in the crevices of dusty old music stores everywhere... the really sucky
part is that Gibson still produces picks of this same material in the
351 shape (they are included in the package included with custom shop
guitars). I was told by their Parts and Accessories rep that they still
had the dies! Yet they won't make them. Boo! Hiss!
Sorry, just had to rant a little
TD
Oh, It was never my intention to compare usenet groups or single this
one out. In fact, I like this group. I am here. I was simply making a
point concerning fantasy world vs reality world, in addition to humble
people vs trolls...all comparitive to the putdowning of very
experienced players.
-TD
rakmanenuff
> > > Of course it is in the real world, and is not restricted to jazz
> > > guitar or even music for that matter. But I do not see it one tenth as
> > > much in the real world as I see it here in this bullshit venue.
>
> > Believe me, this is a Parthenon of politeness compared with the
> > average usenet group.
>
> Oh, It was never my intention to compare usenet groups or single this
> one out. In fact, I like this group. I am here. I was simply making a
> point concerning fantasy world vs reality world, in addition to humble
> people vs trolls...all comparitive to the putdowning of very
> experienced players.
>
> -TD
I happen to respect you 100.. uh 99% Mr. D but because you're
awesome, not because you're "experienced". @£$^& to that.
You're only as good as your last Usenet post :)
For those of us not planning to do business with anybody
in this group, where's the incentive to pretend to agree
with any particular outlook?
(Assuming that pretending to agree offers a guarantee of
doing good business in the first place).
The opinions prevalent in this group might even lead to
a person LOSING business in a different field.
Having said that I'll be working with a Sco fan
soon and if it wasn't for this group I wouldn't
even know who Sco is. A half-baked set of references
will still lead to more common ground than having
no references at all, right?
Showing *general* respect might be a good
thing though. The problem is, even someone less
experienced deserves general respect.
Jonathan (Cleve)
> The 'Gibson USA' was a later designation which continues to this day
> although Gibson does not offer that shape any more. It kind of sucks, I
> know several jazz players here in LA and elsewhere who have expressed a
> preference for this pick. Barry Zweig finally gave up and ordered a
> gross of Fender picks in this shape, but not of the same material...
> from Michael Anthony to Ulf Wakenius they are still searching them out
> in the crevices of dusty old music stores everywhere... the really sucky
> part is that Gibson still produces picks of this same material in the
> 351 shape (they are included in the package included with custom shop
> guitars). I was told by their Parts and Accessories rep that they still
> had the dies! Yet they won't make them. Boo! Hiss!
>
> Sorry, just had to rant a little
Boo, Hiss indeed. I've been using this pick for over 40 years, and
I've got maybe enough left for another five or six years. Then I guess
it's fingerstyle.
Let me know when the petition comes around; I'll sign it.
Gerry
> A half-baked set of references
> will still lead to more common ground than having
> no references at all, right?
It always pays to know the secrent handshake.
> Showing *general* respect might be a good
> thing though. The problem is, even someone less
> experienced deserves general respect.
Some distribute respect based on principles, not actualities.
Joe Finn
>Of course it is in the real world, and is not restricted to jazz
>guitar or even music for that matter. But I do not see it one tenth as
>much in the real world as I see it here in this bullshit venue. The
>put-downing is mostly instigated by novices or hobbyists or wanna-bees
>who appear to want to punish full time players ( players who have
>paid their dues 100x over and never laid their sword down to work the
>farm, or it seems aimed at that particular variety, and never hurt
>anyone either way) in some way and for whatever reason. Even if a
>player is down for the count, there will always be some one who will
>step on his head. It is basic human nature to hurt, which is the flip
>side of basic human nature towards compassion and a little respect. We
>can't have good without evil they say, right? It ain't easy out there
>in the real *uncushioned* world for a player. Let's see one of the
>jive ass put-downers try it. Oh wait a second...it's too late, isn't
>it?
>-TD
Thanks for your views on this, Tony.
Like you, I hate to see negativity directed at the jazz community. It
saddens me and infuriates me as well. Playing jazz takes a lifetime of
dedication. It also happens to be a difficult and challenging profession for
those who truly hear the call. It takes hard work and sacrifice to play this
music. Those of us who love jazz would like to see it continue to flourish.
In addition to this, many of us will not shy away from confronting
negativity directed at jazz and the people who play it. ...joe
drthoma...@gmail.com
> "TD" <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>
>
>
>
> >Of course it is in the real world, and is not restricted to jazz
> >guitar or even music for that matter. But I do not see it one tenth as
> >much in the real world as I see it here in this bullshit venue. The
> >put-downing is mostly instigated by novices or hobbyists or wanna-bees
> >who appear to want to punish full time players ( players who have
> >paid their dues 100x over and never laid their sword down to work the
> >farm, or it seems aimed at that particular variety, and never hurt
> >anyone either way) in some way and for whatever reason. Even if a
> >player is down for the count, there will always be some one who will
> >step on his head. It is basic human nature to hurt, which is the flip
> >side of basic human nature towards compassion and a little respect. We
> >can't have good without evil they say, right? It ain't easy out there
> >in the real *uncushioned* world for a player. Let's see one of the
> >jive ass put-downers try it. Oh wait a second...it's too late, isn't
> >it?
> >-TD
>
> Thanks for your views on this, Tony.
>
> Like you, I hate to see negativity directed at the jazz community. It
> saddens me and infuriates me as well.
But you know what? Conflict on this ng might be a growth experience
for some people. I've learned a lot about myself and others from
participating on usenet.
Joe Finn
news:dc2e5e24-1690-4727...@r9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...
I've had the same experience, Tom.
Jazz appeals to a niche audience; and that's fine with me. It's a
sophisticated style and an acquired taste which is unfortunately
marginalized by the broader popular culture in this great land of ours. As
jazz players this is part of what we struggle with. The shadow that pop
culture casts over us manifests itself in many ways including "conflict on
this ng". That's fine too. It helps people clarify their thinking on a range
of topics. At the root of a lot of these conflicts is the absence of shared
values. People who love jazz want to see it flourish. I've seen a lot of
opinions here from those who either don't know what jazz is or don't even
like it. Some actively seek to discredit and diminish the music and those
who play it! This confounds me no end. They may as well go to a golf
newsgroup and blather on about what a great game tennis is. ...joe
rakmanenuff
> It always pays to know the secrent handshake.
Hm, I must have missed that. Is the "hand shake" some
form of tremolo used by Sco?
jimmybruno
> too? I never encountered it before until I got involved in jazz.
> People openly insulting other people's playing. I started with rock,
> switched to bluegrass and country swing, moved on to Django and
> eventually discovered bop. In all the time I spent in those other
> genres up until bop I can't remember hearing musicians diss other
> musicians in the way jazz musicians sometimes do to each other.
>
> jazz player who went on a tirade about my choice of guitar ( es 175)
> my pick ( a Gibson USA heavy), and my band (a goodman influenced swing
> town evidently because he resented the competition for gigs.
>
> develop and keep the chops, the insecurity of not cutting it that puts
> people on edge. I don't know. Maybe classical players are even worse.
> I'd always hoped jazz guitar could be a fraternity of sorts and it is
> at times, but there is a real edginess and near paranoia about it too
> that makes me wonder if jazz is a very healthy place to be. Just
> thinking out loud...I guess that HM thread got me to wondering about
> this. Maybe I should have stuck with Woody Guthrie and Laedbelly...
> nobody cared if you weren't a virtuoso.
In my day guys trashed your playing right to your face. When I was
around 15 or 16 I'd go around and try to sit in with as many gus as I
could. I'd go to jam sessions every night with older musicians. Guys
would say shit like " you'll be Okay kid when you learn some tunes and
some better changes."
or "you got some balls kid to sit in and play tunes you don't know.
GET AN EAR " Or "yo man! where you get those chords... PEP Boys!
AHHH the good ole days
Des Higgins
Miles Davis said you could get hit if you got on the bandstand at
Minton's and couldn't play.
Joe Montgomery
>
> In my day guys trashed your playing right to your face.
> AHHH the good ole days
Is it a true story that Sidney Bechet once shot a piano player because
he played the wrong chord?
(not that there's anything wrong with that! - grin)
---
jm
Rick Stone
> In my day guys trashed your playing right to your face. When I was
> around 15 or 16 I'd go around and try to sit in with as many gus as I
> could. I'd go to jam sessions every night with older musicians. Guys
> would say shit like " you'll be Okay kid when you learn some tunes and
> some better changes."
>
> or "you got some balls kid to sit in and play tunes you don't know.
> GET AN EAR " Or "yo man! where you get those chords... PEP Boys!
>
> AHHH the good ole days
Yeah, and the truth is, the guys that did that were the ones who were
helping us, because without them we wouldn't have been as motivated to
get it together :-) Humiliation is a great motivator!
Joe Finn
news:hsrlab$pps$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> jimmybruno wrote:
>> In my day guys trashed your playing right to your face. When I was
>> around 15 or 16 I'd go around and try to sit in with as many gus as I
>> could. I'd go to jam sessions every night with older musicians. Guys
>> would say shit like " you'll be Okay kid when you learn some tunes and
>> some better changes."
>>
>> or "you got some balls kid to sit in and play tunes you don't know.
>> GET AN EAR " Or "yo man! where you get those chords... PEP Boys!
>>
>> AHHH the good ole days
>
> Yeah, and the truth is, the guys that did that were the ones who were
> helping us, because without them we wouldn't have been as motivated to
> get it together :-) Humiliation is a great motivator!
>
> --
> Rick Stone
There don't seem to be as many "trial by fire" opportunities as there were
back in the 1960s. I'm old enough to remember experiences like Jimmy had
back then. Today it's more in the classroom than on the bandstand. .....joe
steve
On 14-May-2010, Great White Buffalo <band...@cox.net> wrote:
> Hey, if trashing someone else will make me even seem like a better
> player, I'm all for it! :)-
"I've always believed that I can build myself up by tearing other people
down." from a Bob and Ray skit
--
"The law, which restrains a man from doing mischief to his fellow citizens,
though it diminishes the natural, increases the civil liberty of mankind."
William Blackstone
jimmybruno
> "Rick Stone" <rickst...@rickstone.com> wrote in message
I liked the intimidation method better than school. When you get
trashed on the bandstand you won't go back until you got your shit
together. I personally can't do that to a young guy but I do tell
them the same thing just with a little more tact
Gerry
> In my day guys trashed your playing right to your face. When I was
> around 15 or 16 I'd go around and try to sit in with as many gus as I
> could. I'd go to jam sessions every night with older musicians. Guys
> would say shit like " you'll be Okay kid when you learn some tunes and
> some better changes."
>
> or "you got some balls kid to sit in and play tunes you don't know.
> GET AN EAR " Or "yo man! where you get those chords... PEP Boys!
>
> AHHH the good ole days
Thanks for reminding us, Jimmy, that it's okay to trash other players
if you don't like what they are doing. In fact it is down right
benevolent!
Joe Montgomery
> I personally can't do that to a young guy but I do tell
> them the same thing just with a little more tact
and that's really what it's about i think...HOW that message is
delivered...will it be a "life saver" moment or one like a revered
member of this ng once told me to my face (paraphrasing) after hearing
a demo of my 1st attempt ever at playing trio (g b d) - I had been
trying this jazz stuff for abut 2 years after 25 years of rock
playing...(add a gruff, almost chastising tone)...you know, your
chords and solos are ok but you will NEVER be as good as the 50's guys
I came up with...
not only did that remark really hurt me...because I respected him so
much, but for a long time, I literally believed him and figured what's
the point of trying to get better if he already knows I'll never cut
it.
to me, and i've taught a bit at local CC to know...while his statement
might have been true, there are ways to say the same thing with a
little more tact and less HOUSE MD!
teachers of all stripes should know that how they deliver their
message matters. that's the did between the op's teacher and jimmy b.
jm
335
in the context of a live performnace on the bandstand, brutal honesty
from other more experienced players is an important part of the
learning process. I've crashed and burned on the bandstand before and
while nobody really got in my face, I knew what I had to do to get
better. A couple of weeks ago I had a bass player tell me in a very
pointed way that my endings for tunes were too arbitrary and hard to
follow. That kind of exchange is an important part of learning to play
music with others. I'm not advocating a PC approach to jazz where we
don't criticize other players. But I don't think the type of criticism
on this thread was really intended to educate anyone or help them
improve.
tom walls
I can't believe I'm defending Richard, BUT... I think he listened to
the clip and thought it sucked, and, when he heard others
complimenting it, spoke up and told us the way he heard it. I enjoyed
the performance, but the man's entitled to his opinion(however
incorrect it may be).
JoeJazz2000
posters are helpful, supportive, and as you put it, like a fraternity.
Many pros post on those sites, including this one, and have amazing
insights gained through performance and teaching. Some sites are
moderated and a little more under control; others are wide open and
things sometimes get a bit nasty. I've seen some unecsssarily nasty
remarks on this site from time to time, but I attribute that to, as
others have commented, to people just being jerks. I also lurk at some
gear-oriented sites inhabited by a younger crowd, by default, rock-
oriented. I see much more trash talking and personal attacks at those
sites, than at any jazz guitar sites. I think your experience with
this on jazz sites is the exception. I encourage you to keep reading
these forums, this and others, for just the reasons you hoped for:
support, encouragement, and helpful criticism.
Rick Stone
> and that's really what it's about i think...HOW that message is
> delivered...will it be a "life saver" moment or one like a revered
> member of this ng once told me to my face (paraphrasing) after hearing
> a demo of my 1st attempt ever at playing trio (g b d) - I had been
> trying this jazz stuff for abut 2 years after 25 years of rock
> playing...(add a gruff, almost chastising tone)...you know, your
> chords and solos are ok but you will NEVER be as good as the 50's guys
> I came up with...
>
> not only did that remark really hurt me...because I respected him so
> much, but for a long time, I literally believed him and figured what's
> the point of trying to get better if he already knows I'll never cut
> it.
>
> to me, and i've taught a bit at local CC to know...while his statement
> might have been true, there are ways to say the same thing with a
> little more tact and less HOUSE MD!
>
> teachers of all stripes should know that how they deliver their
> message matters. that's the did between the op's teacher and jimmy b.
Yeah, I try to be a little more tactful too, but I often wonder if I'm
actually doing them a disservice. I know some teachers who routinely
tell their students that they suck, and watch as some of those students
improve dramatically.
Maybe it's an extreme way of getting a result, but ultimately they may
be doing the more "humane" thing.
Their students either:
a) Quit
or
b) Work their tails off to get better (sometimes you've got to get them
angry enough to put some fire in their belly!).
With the music business being as competitive as it is, either of these
options is probably preferable to them just going along "status quo" and
thinking it's okay to be a mediocre player.
Of course, you also have to consider the goal of the individual student.
If they're a recreational player and have no intention of a career in
music, then a more tactful approach probably makes sense.
rpjazzguitar
progress with nastiness than with warm, supportive comments.
And, fastest of all has been when the comments are from other players
(not teachers) who I respect.
There is nothing like being told you suck (and exactly why), by
somebody you want to keep up with, to get you motivated.
For example, the best thing that ever happened for my time was when a
band leader started announcing to the group at the beginning of fast
tunes, "Hey Rick, Don't Drag!"
Gerry
> in the context of a live performnace on the bandstand, brutal honesty
> from other more experienced players is an important part of the
> learning process.
I'm glad that immutable law of physics has been locked down for enternity.
I think it's better this way though: "Brutality is always good."
Gerry
> I can't believe I'm defending Richard, BUT... I think he listened to
> the clip and thought it sucked, and, when he heard others
> complimenting it, spoke up and told us the way he heard it. I enjoyed
> the performance, but the man's entitled to his opinion(however
> incorrect it may be).
You're not following in the hymnal. Richard's view is all well and
good, but 335's opinion of Richard's opinion makes Richard's opinion
BAD. 335's opinion, in this context, however brutal, is the good
brutal a musician's "tradition". Richard's is bad brutal because while
he trashes someone's playing, 335 is trashing Richard's opinion of
trashing someone's playing.
Christ, I'm getting a headache. And I think I've read this thread... a
few hundred times...
335
sheesh... Gerry. You're making this too complicated. I didn't say "
BAD" I just said the dude was mean spirited in the way he expressed
his opinion. It's one thing to offer constructive and even blunt
criticism to a guy if he needs to know something to improve his
playing. I don't think that's what RB was doing. But he's entitled to
his opinion.
steve
On 17-May-2010, Gerry <some...@sunny.calif> wrote:
> You're not following in the hymnal. Richard's view is all well and
> good, but 335's opinion of Richard's opinion makes Richard's opinion
> BAD. 335's opinion, in this context, however brutal, is the good
> brutal a musician's "tradition". Richard's is bad brutal because while
> he trashes someone's playing, 335 is trashing Richard's opinion of
> trashing someone's playing.
Thanks, Yogi.
Cue the AFLAC duck.
335
okay. I've heard your clips, and you stink, man. Why did you ever
think you could play, anyway? That's some of the saddest, sorriest
shit I've ever heard. Bad tone and weak time are your best friends.
Hit the woodshed for 8 hours a day and get back to me next year when
you know some tunes and get an ear. Your clips were " lame, dreadful
and badly played." You might as well quit now man. You'll save a lot
of time.
335
that was fun. I've seen the light now.
Peter Huggins
"Don't give up your day gig".
if mail to this address bounces, please forward to :
guitarmaniax 'at' msn.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I`d dance with you Maria, but my hands are on fire " - Bob Dylan
" We had a knob, and all we had to do was turn it." - Les Paul
Grins, Peter
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/THISISTHE
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/unfinished3
unknownguitarplayer
"...a revered member of this ng once told me to my face (paraphrasing)
after hearing
a demo of my 1st attempt ever at playing trio (g b d) - I had been
trying this jazz stuff for abut 2 years after 25 years of rock
playing...(add a gruff, almost chastising tone)...you know, your
chords and solos are ok but you will NEVER be as good as the 50's guys
I came up with... "
It's probably not much consolation at this point, Joe, but I hope you
realize that a guy who says something like that is probably invoking
"greatness by association", which has a lot more to do with his
insecurity than your playing.
Then there's the other side of the coin: A friend here in Detroit
showed me a card that a rather cantankerous individual used to hand
out selectively at sessions in the 50's. It read:
"SCHMUCK - GO HOME AND PRACTICE!"
Joe Montgomery
<unknownguitarpla...@comcast.net> wrote:
> realize that a guy who says something like that is probably invoking
> "greatness by association", which has a lot more to do with his
> insecurity than your playing.
over time, yes, I drew the same conclusion. still, it stung for a long
time...however, the comment definitely got me motivated to work
harder.
maybe it's problematic or stronger when it's same instrument to
instrument...I have had great support for my playing with some world
class pianists, bassists, drummers, horn players, etc.
but never guitar...hmmm?
>
> "SCHMUCK - GO HOME AND PRACTICE!"
it could be worse:
Years ago I was at a recording session for a demo and the keyboard
player turned to the drummer and said (so we all could hear him):
paraphrasing---"Man you are really bad...I guess to you, Time is just
a magazine...it'd be best for all of us if after you leave here today
you just flat out sell those things. (drums)
(hard to fit on a card, no?)
jm
pmfan57
You got me all turned inside out with that one Parmenides.
pmfan57
I don't agree. Howard Morgan is a finished product. There's no
thoughts of any constructive criticism. But why is saying that you
think someone's music sucks being mean spirited. Remember Howard
Morgan did not post this video here and ask for comments. I doubt
very much if Richard would have said the same thing if he had.
Someone else posted it saying it was an example of what is good about
music, or something to that effect. Richard obviously couldn't
stomach leaving that unchallenged.
335
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think that's precisely why it rubbed me the wrong way - there was
nothing constructive about it. And let's face it, RB's opinion is one
of many; there were others that thought it was pretty good, what we
should aspire to, enjoyable, etc. I thought his choice of
words..."dreadful" "lame" " badly played" etc. was just a tad mean
spirited. ymmv. I would hope that RB wouldn't say something like that
if Howard had posted it but I'm not sure about that. Not sure why you
are speaking for him either.
rpjazzguitar
withering criticism.
Sir Paul's band, for example, was the subject of derisive humor in
60's movies (I just saw it, I think it was Our Man Flint).
I don't have the references handy, but I think early bop was derided
as noise. Someplace there's probably a compilation of bitterly
negative reviews of things that turned out later to be accepted as
genius.
Of course, this doesn't mean that YOU don't suck, just that reviewers
sometime suck worse.
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> Someplace there's probably a compilation of bitterly
> negative reviews of things that turned out later to be accepted as
> genius.
Indeed there is:
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/heraclite/favorite_quotes_from_lexicon_of_musical_invective/
Gerry
That's funny. It didn't feel "good" at all. Oh well, you know better.
Jonathan (not from Cleveland)
I mentioned this in the other thread, but IMHO Howard's YouTube videos
do not reflect his best playing...
All I can surmise is that his playing has suffered because of his
illness.
At any rate, if you are not familiar with his earlier work, like the
Gershwin or Ellington collection, I would suggest that you (and RB)
use these earlier recordings as examples of his playing instead of the
YouTube videos.
If you have already heard his older stuff, then nevermind :)
335
not really. besides, I was only kidding.
pmfan57
I think he's good. I don't think it's lame, if anyone cares what I
think. I don't agree with RB (although he has a right to think it's
lame). But I don't like to listen very much to that type of "chord
melody" set arrangements (unless it's super tasteful and special like,
say, Johnny Smith) and I agree with Holger and Dick in thinking that a
lot of the chord melody stuff out there is not really jazz guitar.
Heck, if a guy isn't a jazz artist, then I'd rather hear a really
great kick ass arrangement by Tommy Emmanuel.
Just chord melody versions of Gershwin tunes isn't nearly as cool, to
me, as Tommy. And for solo guitar, I could listen to Bireli improvise
solo (he's making up all kinds of stuff as he goes along), and Sylvain
Luc is utterly awesome in that context. And Jimmy Bruno's Solo album
was along the lines of Joe Pass. Real jazz.
But I don't think there's any comparison between what Luc does solo,
for example, and what Howard Morgan is doing.
Joe Finn
news:70a30fc3-d44b-404c...@j27g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On May 17, 10:59 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> "Rick Stone" <rickst...@rickstone.com> wrote in message
>
> news:hsrlab$pps$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
> > jimmybruno wrote:
> >> In my day guys trashed your playing right to your face. When I was
> >> around 15 or 16 I'd go around and try to sit in with as many gus as I
> >> could. I'd go to jam sessions every night with older musicians. Guys
> >> would say shit like " you'll be Okay kid when you learn some tunes and
> >> some better changes."
>
> >> or "you got some balls kid to sit in and play tunes you don't know.
> >> GET AN EAR " Or "yo man! where you get those chords... PEP Boys!
>
> >> AHHH the good ole days
>
> > helping us, because without them we wouldn't have been as motivated to
> > get it together :-) Humiliation is a great motivator!
>
> > --
> > Rick Stone
>
> There don't seem to be as many "trial by fire" opportunities as there were
> back in the 1960s. I'm old enough to remember experiences like Jimmy had
> back then. Today it's more in the classroom than on the bandstand.
> .....joe
>
> --
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
> Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
>>>I liked the intimidation method better than school. When you get
>>>trashed on the bandstand you won't go back until you got your shit
>>>together. I personally can't do that to a young guy but I do tell
>>>them the same thing just with a little more tact
That's for sure. I remember sitting in when I was a teenager. I only knew
four songs: Green Dolphin Street, Autumn Leaves, Rhythm changes and blues.
After that I was screwed. The ensuing shame and embarrassment caused me to
work hard on developing repertoire, chops and self confidence. ...joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Or say hello via Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
Gerry
Too late! You're next to Bornman in Volume 123, subdirectory 214, of
the rmmgj "trashing others" hall of shame!
Jeek by jowl!
Gerry
> I think he's good. I don't think it's lame, if anyone cares what I
> think. I don't agree with RB (although he has a right to think it's
> lame). But I don't like to listen very much to that type of "chord
> melody" set arrangements (unless it's super tasteful and special like,
> say, Johnny Smith) and I agree with Holger and Dick in thinking that a
> lot of the chord melody stuff out there is not really jazz guitar.
> Heck, if a guy isn't a jazz artist, then I'd rather hear a really
> great kick ass arrangement by Tommy Emmanuel.
I don't care much for Johnny Smith, nor Tommy Emmanuel. Nothing to say
about their technique; I'm just referring to me listening to their
music. I'll pass, and yes I've listent to plenty by both. I don't
care if either or both are or aren't jaazz.
So does that warrant the next ass-kicking, or was that polite enough?
> Just chord melody versions of Gershwin tunes isn't nearly as cool, to
> me, as Tommy. And for solo guitar, I could listen to Bireli improvise
> solo (he's making up all kinds of stuff as he goes along), and Sylvain
> Luc is utterly awesome in that context. And Jimmy Bruno's Solo album
> was along the lines of Joe Pass. Real jazz.
>
> But I don't think there's any comparison between what Luc does solo,
> for example, and what Howard Morgan is doing.
I don't think there's any good reason to compare any of them to
anything. I don't get what the utility is to stratify with artist X at
the top, next is Y, but Y is higher than Z but X is twice as high as Z
and do forth. I like some music and others not so much. And to me it
doesn't make any difference if it's not jazzy, jazzy, or "real" jazz. I
just like music and playing that appeals to me for whatever reason.
In fact I'm even more delighted if there's no *logical* reason for me
to get excited and yet I do.
Five Sharp
> But I don't think there's any comparison between what Luc does solo, for
> example, and what Howard Morgan is doing.
Quite so. Different league.
#####
Rick Stone
> I don't think there's any good reason to compare any of them to
> anything. I don't get what the utility is to stratify with artist X at
> the top, next is Y, but Y is higher than Z but X is twice as high as Z
> and do forth. I like some music and others not so much. And to me it
> doesn't make any difference if it's not jazzy, jazzy, or "real" jazz. I
> just like music and playing that appeals to me for whatever reason.
>
> In fact I'm even more delighted if there's no *logical* reason for me to
> get excited and yet I do.
I know what you mean, I don't really think about music/musicians this
way, but SOME people are really hung up about which one is "better."
When I was playing with Sol Yaged, Jackie Mason was a big fan of Sol's
and would often come to have dinner and listen. He'd invite me over to
his table and we'd be talking and he'd invariably ask me things like
"How good is Sol? Is he as good as Benny Goodman? Is he a little
better than Artie Shaw?" etc. It was like he needed a rating system, or
needed to hear from a musician to confirm what he liked/didn't like.
I'd always manage to dodge the question and not really give him an answer.
Greger Hoel
<rick...@rickstone.com>:
> Gerry wrote:
>> I don't think there's any good reason to compare any of them to
>> anything. I don't get what the utility is to stratify with artist X at
>> the top, next is Y, but Y is higher than Z but X is twice as high as Z
>> and do forth. I like some music and others not so much. And to me it
>> doesn't make any difference if it's not jazzy, jazzy, or "real" jazz. I
>> just like music and playing that appeals to me for whatever reason.
>>
>> In fact I'm even more delighted if there's no *logical* reason for me to
>> get excited and yet I do.
>
> I know what you mean, I don't really think about music/musicians this
> way, but SOME people are really hung up about which one is "better."
Hey, have we forgotten about the Martino vs. Hendrix Incident already? :P
--
Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
Gerry
> Gerry wrote:
>> I don't think there's any good reason to compare any of them to
>> anything. I don't get what the utility is to stratify with artist X at
>> the top, next is Y, but Y is higher than Z but X is twice as high as Z
>> and do forth. I like some music and others not so much. And to me it
>> doesn't make any difference if it's not jazzy, jazzy, or "real" jazz. I
>> just like music and playing that appeals to me for whatever reason.
>>
>> In fact I'm even more delighted if there's no *logical* reason for me to
>> get excited and yet I do.
>
> I know what you mean, I don't really think about music/musicians this
> way, but SOME people are really hung up about which one is "better."
>
> When I was playing with Sol Yaged, Jackie Mason was a big fan of Sol's
> and would often come to have dinner and listen. He'd invite me over to
> his table and we'd be talking and he'd invariably ask me things like
> "How good is Sol? Is he as good as Benny Goodman? Is he a little
> better than Artie Shaw?" etc. It was like he needed a rating system, or
> needed to hear from a musician to confirm what he liked/didn't like.
> I'd always manage to dodge the question and not really give him an answer.
I hear people do that too when others insist. I slowly get very
quantitative saying that player X is twice as good as another, but then
player Y is 4/5's as good as player Z, but only 7/18th's as good as he
use to be. And so forth; it eventually sounds like I'm reading a
grocery store receipt. Eventually they get the gag and I get a laugh or
too.
Gerry
No because it never dies! We only change the names and forge on!
pmfan57
> < 1KViewDownload
Henny Youngman wasn't half the comedian Jackie Mason was.
Gerry
> Henny Youngman wasn't half the comedian Jackie Mason was.
True, he was about 43% the comedian Jackie Mason was, but 12% better
than Pat Paulsen.
george4908
> about their technique; I'm just referring to me listening to their
> music. I'll pass, and yes I've listent to plenty by both. I don't
> care if either or both are or aren't jaazz.
>
> So does that warrant the next ass-kicking, or was that polite enough?
No, that was nice and polite. But it's all idiosyncracy anyway. I'm
with you on Johnny Smith, however having recently discovered Tommy
Emmanuel, I think he's a hoot and look forward to seeing him live next
time he comes around. So you're half right. So there.
Of the many players that get mentioned around here, some of whom are
giants, some I love, some I respect but don't necessarily love, some
I'm neither hot nor cold on, and some I just plain don't like. I
don't mind enthusing about those I love, but I'm not inclined in a
public forum to criticize those I don't like (especially given my hack
level). Buy me a drink in a bar and it might be otherwise, though.
You don't necessarily have to be a great player yourself to have a
negative opinion of someone who plays better than you. You just need
to be cool about it.
guitarannie
wrote:
My favorite movie review was:
"My disappointment waned when my mind began to wander."
Gerry
>>
>> I don't care much for Johnny Smith, nor Tommy Emmanuel. �Nothing to say
>> about their technique; I'm just referring to me listening to their
>> music. �I'll pass, and yes I've listent to plenty by both. �I don't
>> care if either or both are or aren't jaazz.
>>
>> So does that warrant the next ass-kicking, or was that polite enough?
>
> No, that was nice and polite. But it's all idiosyncracy anyway. I'm
> with you on Johnny Smith, however having recently discovered Tommy
> Emmanuel, I think he's a hoot and look forward to seeing him live next
> time he comes around. So you're half right. So there.
So there? I think Tommy's a hoot too. But my hoot has been had already.
> Of the many players that get mentioned around here, some of whom are
> giants, some I love, some I respect but don't necessarily love, some
> I'm neither hot nor cold on, and some I just plain don't like.
My favorite point of reference in this context is always Barney Kessel.
When I was in my 20's a bought a few records by him and I thought he
sucked. I thought his technique dated, lame, anemic, stiff, and
finally--thoroughly uncool in everyway. And I didn't give up, I still
bought a side every 8 years or something.
Now I think he is one of the true greats, not just for text-book
inclusion but for inclusion on my playlist. His "Poll Winner" trio
dates are absolutely marvelous, his side with Julie London is
wonderful, and there are another half dozen records I find truly
exhilerating to listen to.
Viewpoints change. The idea of hammering someone for their opinion
seems so silly, and more often than not it's this "respect" we're
supposed to show--not to the man or his family, in reality, but in
deference to his rmmgj fans. Or perhaps just to the concept of
abstract respect for an icon. Icon reverence.
I don't get it. Unless, of course, somebody says one word--just one
word!--about Bickert or Galbraith!
> I don't mind enthusing about those I love, but I'm not inclined in a
> public forum to criticize those I don't like (especially given my hack
> level). Buy me a drink in a bar and it might be otherwise, though.
> You don't necessarily have to be a great player yourself to have a
> negative opinion of someone who plays better than you. You just need
> to be cool about it.
I think you only need a mouth and a modicum of skill with a language.
You might not get a forum, though.
rpjazzguitar
Gerry
> If nobody's better than anybody, how come I don't get more gigs?
Comparitively speaking--you're incomparable.
Take that in what way best serves your self-image.
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> I mentioned this in the other thread, but IMHO Howard's YouTube videos
> do not reflect his best playing...
> All I can surmise is that his playing has suffered because of his
> illness.
> At any rate, if you are not familiar with his earlier work, like the
> Gershwin or Ellington collection, I would suggest that you (and RB)
> use these earlier recordings as examples of his playing instead of the
> YouTube videos.
> If you have already heard his older stuff, then nevermind
Richard still wouldn't like it. Some folks just have smaller esthetics
than others.
Steven Bornfeld
Right! Like GB vs. Glen Campbell!
Steve
Gerry
You have won the award for the coup de gras not only in snarkdom, but
also in precision.
Tim McNamara
Rick Stone <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote:
> Gerry wrote:
> > I don't think there's any good reason to compare any of them to
> > anything. I don't get what the utility is to stratify with artist X
> > at the top, next is Y, but Y is higher than Z but X is twice as
> > high as Z and do forth. I like some music and others not so much.
> > And to me it doesn't make any difference if it's not jazzy, jazzy,
> > or "real" jazz. I just like music and playing that appeals to me
> > for whatever reason.
> >
> > In fact I'm even more delighted if there's no *logical* reason for
> > me to get excited and yet I do.
>
> I know what you mean, I don't really think about music/musicians this
> way, but SOME people are really hung up about which one is "better."
>
> When I was playing with Sol Yaged, Jackie Mason was a big fan of
> Sol's and would often come to have dinner and listen. He'd invite me
> over to his table and we'd be talking and he'd invariably ask me
> things like "How good is Sol? Is he as good as Benny Goodman? Is he
> a little better than Artie Shaw?" etc. It was like he needed a
> rating system, or needed to hear from a musician to confirm what he
> liked/didn't like.
I think that's exactly what it is. He was probably insecure about his
ability to hear the music and his evaluation of the musicians; he didn't
want to be "wrong" and look "uncool" by liking the wrong music or
thinking well of the wrong musician(s) or not liking the right stuff and
the "good" musicians."
And, jeez, good jazz musicians usually are open to and like all kinds of
stuff. Miles Davis liked The Who and wanted to play with Jimi Hendrix,
even speaking with him on the phone on a number of occasions.
> I'd always manage to dodge the question and not really give him an
> answer.
Best approach.
TD
> In article <hstsda$il...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Critics and critique have been around since the caveman, and that's
fine and expected as a "norm." Unfortunately, so has cruelty via
hitting a man when he is down, as well as vituperation without
knowledge of the integral facts. Why change the subject? Anyone is
entitled to not liking something and can be aural or be scrivened upon
it. That is not the subject matter here or the beef.
-TD
Gregg L
snipped
> And, jeez, good jazz musicians usually are open to and like all kinds
> of stuff. Miles Davis liked The Who and wanted to play with Jimi
> Hendrix, even speaking with him on the phone on a number of occasions.
Jimi, according to a bio of Miles, (pretty sure not his autobio) was
actually in Miles' home one night, but Miles didn't come down.
Gregg
Tim McNamara
"Gregg L" <him...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> snipped
> > And, jeez, good jazz musicians usually are open to and like all kinds
> > of stuff. Miles Davis liked The Who and wanted to play with Jimi
> > Hendrix, even speaking with him on the phone on a number of occasions.
>
>
> Jimi, according to a bio of Miles, (pretty sure not his autobio) was
> actually in Miles' home one night, but Miles didn't come down.
In "Miles To Go," the accuracy of which I do not know, the author states
that Miles and Jimi never met in person and never played together; he
wrote that they did talk extensively on the phone and even discuss
material they could play together. So those two reports plausibly fit.
Hard to picture Miles not coming down, but he was an odd bird at times.
ES175_Player
younger..
On the other hand, This NG for the most part has a bunch of helpful
and knowledgeable guys..I'm a little long in the tooth, to play out
all the time, but I just enjoy the hell out of jazz guitar. I've
learned a lot from a lot of guys here that probably don't realize that
they have helped me, with their comments, and video links, lessons,
analasys, and theory debates posted on this site. Plus have gotten
turned on to a lot of really great players who are here, that
otherwise I would probably never heard of..
True...You guys are a bunch of Assholes, but I've found you to be very
helpful assholes...LOL..
Been a member for going on 6 years and proud of it..
ES175_Player
Johnny Smith is GOD!! (At least at my house!!)...LOL..