neck joint design on archtops
dwabeslim
have a dovetail joint. I was under the impression that all quality
archtops were made this way. I know Ibanez used another style in the
Lawsuit years and of course I''m not referring to bolt -on's ,
soildbody..etc.
Can anyone shed some light? perhaps the builder/repair
guys on the NG?
Greg
Morey Richman
I'm pretty sure all Gibson archtops including 175s have dovetail
joints - semis like the 335 have tenons - there are badly fitted
dovetails and great, secure tenons so I don't think the type of joint
necessarily dictates solidity or strength but traditionally Gibson has
always used dovetails on their archtops and continue to do so.
joe montgomery
While not a luthier, I've owned enough instruments throughout my life
and spent many hours in repair shops asking questions...I have a
Martin 000 with a mortise and tenon join and I was worried about it.
What I came to find was that a well done mortise and tenon will
outlast a poorly done dovetail any day.
Ive also learned not to be too scared of any guitar because it has
issues...in the right repair hands ALMOST ANYTHING can be repaired to
the satisfaction of the player.
That said, the join on my handmade archtops are so good they wouldnt
have even needed glue! (I was present when one of them was joined.)
2cents, whatever jm
thomas
How could you know what joint Jack's guitar has without taking the
neck off?
van
Hey Morey- did your friend ever buy a B120?
Mark Cleary
to attach the neck and the body. The question is if this is as good as a
dovetail joint? A dovetail should be less prone to problems if you look at
how it is designed but frankly not a big issue in my opinion. All Gibson
glory carved top guitars are made with the mortise and tendon joint and
frankly they have done well. Very rarely do I see a big Gibson archtop
needing a neck set. Usually something else is causing the problem and that
is the reason the neck is not sitting correct.
Most neck sets are on flattop guitars and not really because of the neck
joint but the nature of the flat sound board and pulling of the top. Most
175's are fine and almost all es type GIbsons have not been a problem
related to the neck set, but from the top caving in or some structural issue
of the body. I have never had to reset a neck on a 175 or even come close
but I am certainly not a major player in the business. What I have seen and
have had to deal with a lot are tops the start to depress and plywood bodies
that do not take the stress and start to fold. I cannot speak to what Jack
is talking about with his guitar and Jack and I tend to politely disagree
about guitars in general. He has to play the guitar a feel like it will work
for him and given his level of ability I am not about to tell him what I
think, much less what might happen. If the joint was subject to large
temperature changes sure things could happen but I think other parts of the
guitar would be going to show first.
A guitar made by Gibson with a mortise and tendon joint would be hard under
normal situations to have the neck come loose. Sure it can happen but glue
is glue, and if it has been properly applied it stands no less chance of
separating than the neck being broken in a fall. I repair cracked necks all
the time and it is my primary repair work. I have necks that usually begin
to split around the neck and head stock all the time. When dropped the
peghead area will get the most stress and crack in all sorts of ways. The
neck and body joint is heavy duty and can handle much more stress. It would
normally take a huge hit for the neck and body to separate from any single
blow or even come loose. Believe me when you remove a neck from a guitar you
have to make direct hits in the right spot to even get the neck to come off.
Players always ask me about repairing the joint and if the guitar will be
ok. Well I tell them in most cases if I glued the puppy and get it set it
should be fine, it will take any normal load it did before the break. I have
never had one returned because it cracked again in the same spot.
A dovetail joint should be very stable and strong and other parts of the
guitar are causing the problem not the joint. Normally the top depresses a
little or the whole guitar simply bends in the direction of the strings but
it is not the joint itself that is the problem Resetting the neck can
correct this but you still have to get to the root of the cause. In some
cases the guitar moves a bit in early life and then never will move after
this and a neck reset is fine. If the guitar is caving in and structurally
moving then the neck reset will help but will still begin to move in unless
the problem is corrected.
In the end it is complicated and many repairman to do agree on what should
be done. I have seen very gifted repairman and guitar builders who disagree
about some things and how they are to be handled. It is not a
one-size-fits-all and the proof is in what works or has worked in the past.
My own teachers Barker and Hollenbeck disagreed with each other on many
points and some are very important. To answer a more direct question, if I
were going to build an archtop myself I would not use a dovetail I would use
the mortise and tendon joint. This is different than those who I learned
from so take that crazy answer. I think a well made mortise and tendon joint
put together like Jimmy Foster does, or Gibson is fine and frankly easier to
make. Here is another thought, I might even consider using a bolt and screw
set up in the end block. Not a bolt on neck as such but a way to increase
stability.
The deacon is definitely lost his mind now but maybe after 20 inches of snow
in the few days it will clear up.
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Church
"dwabeslim" wrote in message
news:1ba403ae-ab89-4c85...@a28g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
David J. Littleboy
"Mark Cleary" <mcle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ok the deal is Gibson does not use a dovetail. They use a mortise and
> tendon
OK, I'm a compulsive jerk. Sue me.
But, sheesh. It's _TENON_. Please.
A tendon is what tennis players hurt, a tenon is a frob.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon
<Large amounts of good, nicely written, useful stuff ruthlessly snipped>
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Mark Cleary
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Church
"David J. Littleboy" wrote in message
news:GLmdnVrEX5ex9trQ...@giganews.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon
I type worse than I play please for give tenon it just comes mind when
typing what I hear.
sheetsofsound
>
> > In discussing Sheet's 175, I've discovered that the guitar does not
> > have a dovetail joint. I was under the impression that all quality
> > archtops were made this way. I know Ibanez used another style in the
> > Lawsuit years and of course I''m not referring to bolt -on's ,
> > soildbody..etc.
> > Can anyone shed some light? perhaps the builder/repair
> > guys on the NG?
> > Greg
>
> I'm pretty sure all Gibson archtops including 175s have dovetail
> joints
Nope. That information is incorrect. I don't believe gibson ever used
dovetails for their archtops. Here's picture of the 175 body and neck
joint. You can clearly see it's a mortise and tenon. (Not tendon as
Clearly said!)
http://www.jackzucker.com/images/175neck.jpg
http://www.jackzucker.com/images/175body.jpg
Bg
Wow, you took it apart already.:-)
Bg
Michael L Kankiewicz
> Ok the deal is Gibson does not use a dovetail. They use a mortise and tendon
Do you mean muscle and tendon?
Michael L Kankiewicz
>
> Nope. That information is incorrect. I don't believe gibson ever used
> dovetails for their archtops. Here's picture of the 175 body and neck
> joint. You can clearly see it's a mortise and tenon. (Not tendon as
> Clearly said!)
He clearly said what?
Morey Richman
I guess I stand corrected then ... however, I've had 2 Gibsons reset
in the past (a '54 175 and '63 L5) and both of them had what I'd call
a "sliding" mortise and tenon dovetail or wedged half-dovetail – a
mortise in which the back is wider, or taller, than the front, or
opening. Wish I still had the photos and they look nothing like the
joint you've pictured, but my luthier definitely called it a dovetail.
sheetsofsound
tendon
Tom Walls
Cleary, Mark.
Tom Walls
> "Mark Cleary"<mcle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Ok the deal is Gibson does not use a dovetail. They use a mortise and
>> tendon
>
> OK, I'm a compulsive jerk. Sue me.
Can they sue you for that?
eric s
> On 1/31/11 9:08 PM, David J. Littleboy wrote:
>
> >> Ok the deal is Gibson does not use a dovetail. They use a mortise and
> >> tendon
>
> > OK, I'm a compulsive jerk. Sue me.
>
> Can they sue you for that?
uh oh.
eric
Greg/oasysco
Yeah, I didn't see any blood 'n guts in that pic, so I must concur
with Jack that Gibson probably doesn't use tendons on their guitars
>
> http://www.jackzucker.com/images/175neck.jpghttp://www.jackzucker.com/images/175body.jpg
sheetsofsound
Mortician and tendon joints sound creepy to me