thoughts on switching to benson technique
paul
benson picking. it's a bit long, and I feel like pontificating, so
I'll post it here.
I am almost embarassed at how long it took me to switch. it probably
took me 4-5 years before my "old" way of picking felt uncomfortable.
there was a long period of time where I would switch back and forth,
start out picking one way and then finding myself switched at the end
of a solo.
I do feel pretty good about switching because I think it has allowed
me to play with a much better time feel than I used to have. I don't
think the technique is necessarily responsible for this, more that the
process of switching allowed me to re-learn things that would have
been hard otherwise. nowadays, when I post a sound clip, I get
compliments on my time feel, which is awesome, because back in the old
days, it was always the weak link in my playing and everyone said so
(instructors, other newsgroup members, etc).
my time definitely isn't perfect now, and still needs a lot of work,
but listening to clips of mine 10 years ago and now, there is no
question I've made big changes to my overall time feel, and I feel
pretty good about that.
one thing I've taken away from getting feedback here is that overly
specific advice about the technique should be taken with a grain of
salt. I've had people tell me my thumb isn't bent enough, blah blah
blah, but then you go and watch dan wilson or even benson sometimes
and their thumbs are almost straight. I think dan adler is right that
it really is all about rest strokes and getting a thumblike sound.
anyways, enough blathering, just wanted to post some thoughts before I
start practicing.
--paul
sheetsofsound
Thanks Paul!
Paul K
time with it each time I practice, with the hope that it will improve my
time/feel. It is slowly starting to feel a bit more natural, but I can't
commit to it full time and dont use it when I'm gigging, it's one more
thing to juggle. But I wonder if in a few years I'll be able to use it,
my goal, rather than to switch is to be able to use both naturally.
--
Paul K
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
ScotGormley
>
> - Show quoted text -
I keep going back and forth with this technique, too. I really like
it for jazz, but find myself going back to more traditional style
picking for rock, and especially for SRV-style blues. Check out Sheryl
Bailey's Family of 4 (Mike's Master Classes) if you want to see a
great player who really uses the Benson-style technique to its
fullest. I love her tone, time, etc.
Tim McNamara
<08970b11-8b36-4c91...@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
ScotGormley <scot.g...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for that post Paul. I dabble with the technique: spend a
> > little time with it each time I practice, with the hope that it
> > will improve my time/feel. It is slowly starting to feel a bit more
> > natural, but I can't commit to it full time and dont use it when
> > I'm gigging, it's one more thing to juggle. But I wonder if in a
> > few years I'll be able to use it, my goal, rather than to switch is
> > to be able to use both naturally.
>
> I keep going back and forth with this technique, too. I really like
> it for jazz, but find myself going back to more traditional style
> picking for rock, and especially for SRV-style blues. Check out
> Sheryl Bailey's Family of 4 (Mike's Master Classes) if you want to
> see a great player who really uses the Benson-style technique to its
> fullest. I love her tone, time, etc.
I've often not been very impressed with the tone lots of folks get with
the "Benson" technique. Sheryl is an exception, she has a *great* tone.
I noticed in Myles's demo of his ES-175 that he uses something like the
Benson technique and his tone was very good too. Rodney, cited earlier
in the thread, also has a great tone.
Many times it just looks awkward and doesn't sound "thumb-like" to me.
I wonder how much pick type has an effect on the tone?
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ő to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
ScotGormley
> In article
> <08970b11-8b36-4c91-94bb-24e511a50...@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> ScotGormley <scot.gorm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, I posted a message on this topic maybe 8 months ago or so, and a
lot of folks made comments about not liking the tone, generally.
Sheryl uses a medium pick, and Benson uses a Fender extra heavy, I
think. Pick angle and weight really make a big difference, for sure.
The sound for me is quite different with a Fender medium as compared
to a Clayton 1.9 mm, for example, but of course that's true for
standard picking too.
Myles does sound great on that demo--I agree.
I can get more of an extreme angle with the Benson style and get less
of the abrasive scratching sound (but I like that scratch sound for
rock and blues--Paul Gilbert calls that the "heavy metal cello" tone).
I originally learned the technique as my foundation--from Lorain, Ohio
guitarist Clayton Higgins. Clayton learned it from Ralph Russo, a real
jazz guitar legend in the Cleveland area. Don't know why Ralph never
became more well known--he was like a Ron Eschete, in terms of
arranging for solo guitar. Anyone else here ever study with Ralph?
When I arrived at GIT in 1986, I had people coming up to me all the
time saying how I had that Benson thing down . . . I had no idea what
they were talking about, as I'd never seen Benson play before. I was
just playing with that technique Clayton showed me and did not know
how to play any other way.
sheetsofsound
> In article
> <08970b11-8b36-4c91-94bb-24e511a50...@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
better sound than "normal".
Tim McNamara
<f7e7f214-aae8-4e17...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
ScotGormley <scot.g...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> When I arrived at GIT in 1986, I had people coming up to me all the
> time saying how I had that Benson thing down . . . I had no idea what
> they were talking about, as I'd never seen Benson play before. I was
> just playing with that technique Clayton showed me and did not know
> how to play any other way.
That's kind of humorous.
Jonathan (not from Cleveland)
>
> Benson uses a Fender extra heavy, I
> think.
Do you happen to know what part of the pick he uses (point or side)?
Tim McNamara
<95f53777-f098-4a70...@o14g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't want to insult people. And "much better sound" is subjective,
of course, so you might think they sound great while I don't. I'm not
enamored with the "thumb sound" either. Wes's sound was great, of
course, but in general I prefer the "flat picked" sound a la Ed Bickert,
Jim Hall, etc.
But Sheryl's tone, wow. It's hard to listen to her and not want to
sound *exactly* like that.
I think what people are trying to do with the thumb and the Benson
approach is to get rid of the tendency for a click and snap at the
attack of the note. They seem to want a rounder start to the note to
sound more legato and warmer. I find this can be pretty much achieved
with touch, pick angle, pick placement (one of the things about the
Benson approach is that it places the pick farther from the bridge), and
a pick with a beveled edge such as the Dunlop 500 1.5 mm or the Wegen
2.5 mm. But the tone is still different than a thumb or Benson style
picking and may not be what someone is looking for.
I find the Benson approach too awkward and limiting- it's hard to use
hybrid pick and fingers for chords, for example.
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ‹ to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
sheetsofsound
That's incorrect. The benson approach yields a sharper and brighter
attack but the main reason to do it is because the articulation is
better and from a physics standpoint makes the most sense given the
predominance of the downstroke in people's picking. I pick the
opposite way with the other side of the pick hitting the strings
first. It's also more efficient than holding the pick parallel to the
strings but because the other side of the pick hits on a downstroke it
doesn't sound as strong IMO.
sheetsofsound
is *THE BEST* followed by benson picking tone.
To me, the tone off the strings by Rodney, Wilson, Benson and even the
new clips by Myles are way better than bickert's and Hall's tone off
the strings. Not saying anything about the content or overall tone of
the amplified instrument but acoustically, the benson technique is
obviously superior for technique and tone.
sheetsofsound
i thought benson used fender medium or heavy. Point side. Nobody but
metheny uses the other side! :)
pmfan57
For my tastes, (leaving the master himself aside) the best *sounding*
Benson-style pickers are Bobby Broom and Sheryl.
I don't think you necessarily get the bright clicky sound picking like
that. But many of the players that pick like that are trying to get
the brighter GB sound. That's the sound they want and that picking
style might be the best way to get it. But Bobby Broom picks like
that and doesn't get that sound at all. Adam Rogers picks like that
and get a sound that is nothing like Benson (except when he wants
to). And Bireli picks nothing like GB and can sound more like him on
electric than Bobby Broom or Adam Rogers do.
Bg
> electric than Bobby Broom or Adam Rogers do.
Man, is that ever true!
Bg
Bill C
conventional picking = hold pick between pad of thumb and side of
first finger
Benson picking = hold pick between (tip or pad) of thumb and pad of
first finger
paul
>
> one thing I've taken away from getting feedback here is that overly
> specific advice about the technique should be taken with a grain of
> salt.
for example, someone on youtube just told me I wasn't using benson
picking because my thumb was not locked. however, if you watch videos
of george, his thumb is not always locked by a longshot, neither is
rodney jones' or dan wilson's for that matter.
--paul
sheetsofsound
No. The main point of benson picking is rotating the wrist counter
clockwise so the right side of the pick hits the strings first.
Jonathan (not from Cleveland)
Thanks.
Alain
Bill C
Sorry, I still don't get it - it's not clear from the videos I've
seen. When I pick, the side of the pick (ie where it has Fender or
Gibson etc printed on it) is at right angles to the soundboard, and
the point of the pick is pointing directly at the pickup. How does the
Benson technique differ from this?
thanks
Bill
sheetsofsound
take a look at the rodney jones video or the paul s video. They are
pretty clear. It's kind of hard to explain in words...
icarusi
news:349d702c-6e66-40ff...@t13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
With the 'Benson', the pick-edge nearest the bridge hits first. Most
players, it's the pick-edge nearest the neck which hits first. Some, like
Steve Morse, hold near-parallel but for me that just makes a very dead
sound, almost muting the string as it's picked. Morse may be angling
slightly to avoid that. If you mostly use the same pick, the edges wear with
a 'hand' to them depending on which way you pick.
icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
http://icarusi.wordpress.com/
Tim McNamara
<63d6d9ec-68ae-41eb...@o21g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
If you say so, Jack. My experience trying it is very otherwise. What
works for you is not what am looking for, I guess.
Tim McNamara
<96f7db71-720e-4eb8...@j9g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I we disagree on tone apparently because to me the finger/thumb tone
> is *THE BEST* followed by benson picking tone.
If I want to use my fingers and thumb, I play my nylon string generally.
I'd play nylon string most of the time if I could get past the piezo
tone. The warmest amplified nylon string tone I have heard was a
YouTube video played on a Crafter CT-125, basically a nylon string solid
body.
> To me, the tone off the strings by Rodney, Wilson, Benson and even
> the new clips by Myles are way better than bickert's and Hall's tone
> off the strings. Not saying anything about the content or overall
> tone of the amplified instrument but acoustically, the benson
> technique is obviously superior for technique and tone.
You are making objective-sounding statements based on personal taste and
opinion. That's OK, just pointing it out.
sheetsofsound
>
> sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I we disagree on tone apparently because to me the finger/thumb tone
> > is *THE BEST* followed by benson picking tone.
>
> If I want to use my fingers and thumb, I play my nylon string generally.
> I'd play nylon string most of the time if I could get past the piezo
> tone. The warmest amplified nylon string tone I have heard was a
> YouTube video played on a Crafter CT-125, basically a nylon string solid
> body.
>
> > To me, the tone off the strings by Rodney, Wilson, Benson and even
> > the new clips by Myles are way better than bickert's and Hall's tone
> > off the strings. Not saying anything about the content or overall
> > tone of the amplified instrument but acoustically, the benson
> > technique is obviously superior for technique and tone.
>
> You are making objective-sounding statements based on personal taste and
> opinion. That's OK, just pointing it out.
of course. everything posted in this group would needs an IMO in front
of it. Nothing in jazz is objective...
paul
> Question: when using the technique do you also play chords with it, or do you
> switch back to standard picking for that?
If I'm strumming, I don't switch back. in fact, I think the best way
to learn the technique is to start by learning to strum that way, and
then gradually refining it to single notes. it's the same motion.
if I want to comp with a pick and fingers, then I have to switch the
angle of my wrist completely. I used to comp almost exclusively with a
pick and fingers, but over the years I've gravitated towards strumming
for many situations. I probably comp about half the time with pick +
fingers, and half the time strumming.
> Also, sweeping feels more difficult to me with benson technique.
sweeping feels difficult to me no matter what technique I use :).
--paul
paul
>
> take a look at the rodney jones video or the paul s video. They are
> pretty clear. It's kind of hard to explain in words...
my video isn't meant to be a shining example, just my attempt :). that
said, I do use one of the blunt edges of the pick and always have.
--paul
paul
won't be offended at all if you don't dig it, just curious.
--paul
Tim McNamara
<66b1fca8-ea3f-43f3...@p24g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
paul <pcsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tim, I am curious what you think of my sound using this technique. I
> won't be offended at all if you don't dig it, just curious.
Where can I hear you play?
Tim McNamara
<04f77fcc-123d-43ed...@v11g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL! 'Struth, man!
sheetsofsound
>
> paul <pcsanw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Tim, I am curious what you think of my sound using this technique. I
> > won't be offended at all if you don't dig it, just curious.
>
> Where can I hear you play?
goto post #1 in this thread!
paul
>
> Where can I hear you play?
>
lady bird: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyqd4b1noC4
lady be good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFTOowpaF2g
ecj
Paul, you sound great, and I don't mean any disrespect at all to you
as a player, but I feel like it's a stretch to describe what you are
doing as "Benson picking". You are holding the pick in a similarly
inverted position, but you don't seem to be using rest-stroke
technique, which is really what, IMO, the Benson thing is all about.
I also think that the bio-mechanics of what you're doing, in terms of
the main driver of your motion, is different than the wrist
"oscillation" motion that Tuck Andress describes. It looks like
you're using a lot of wrist rotation (like turning a doorknob) and
thumb joint motion. Have you tried cranking up the speed on what
you're doing? That's where it finally started to 'click' for me.
Playing slowly you can get away with some things, but once you're
doing rapid fire notes it's harder not to rely on that oscillation
motion Tuck describes with your hand below the strings.
I've heard Benson cite Django as a huge influence, as well as Charlie
Christian and Wes Montgomery. What all those players have in common
is, again, IMO, their approach to picking. They start every string
change with a down pick (or down thumb in Wes' case), rarely if ever
start a phrase with an upstroke, and let the pick fall into the next
string. This is clearly a bit of a guess in Christian's case, but I
think it's probably likely given that the basic rest-stroke technique,
that we often hear described as gypsy picking these days, was used by
almost all plectrum, string-instrument performers before the 1950s
(still taught as standard practice on a lot of "world music"
instruments).
I think the benefit of this technique is that you don't have to
control your follow through. Think about the mechanics of other
common jazz instruments, and you'll note that the main drivers of note
production (taking the embouchure out of the equation) is almost
always a motion that stops itself. You push a key on a piano, it goes
a certain distance then stops. You play a note on a sax, you push the
keys in and they stop.
The only other instrument commonly used in jazz that doesn't "stop
itself" that I can think of is the trombone. IMO trombone players
often display the same shakiness of time and sloppy technique that
many early jazz guitarists (and even current guitarists) suffer from.
I think that's because with the trombone, and with guitar using the
typical "alternate pick free strokes" approach, you have to be careful
about controlling the follow-through motion on every note. I think
it's just physically harder.
And while many great players on both instruments have managed to
master the technique and perform fluently and with great time, I think
it requires a certain natural athleticism that at least I know I don't
possess.
The huge benefit of Benson picking to me, and I think the impact it
has on people's time feel, is that it uses the older rest-stroke style
picking and takes the follow through out of the equation. My time and
feel continue to improve with this approach beyond what I was ever
capable of doing with the old alternate picking model.
And, like sheets, I feel like the tone is just "right". I don't know
that it's necessary, though. Charlie Christian held his pick in the
standard fashion to create the standard jazz guitar tone, but also
anchored his right hand fingers to the pick guard and played 90%
downstrokes. I'd almost guarantee they were rest strokes.
Again, not a commentary on your playing, which is great. Just my
observations based on my investigations into the Benson picking thing.
sheetsofsound
> On Mar 1, 8:46 pm, paul <pcsanw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 1, 9:26 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > Where can I hear you play?
>
> > lady bird:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyqd4b1noC4
>
> > lady be good:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFTOowpaF2g
>
> Paul, you sound great, and I don't mean any disrespect at all to you
> as a player, but I feel like it's a stretch to describe what you are
> doing as "Benson picking". You are holding the pick in a similarly
> inverted position, but you don't seem to be using rest-stroke
> technique, which is really what, IMO, the Benson thing is all about.
I disagree and I think Rodney's clip proves it. Rodney was taught the
technique by george but modifies it slightly to accommodate circle
picking...Yet it's still benson picking and still sounds like benson
picking. Benson's not using rest strokes when he plays the super fast
stuff and it still sounds like benson (obviously)
m
Dan Adler
This is the best and most accurate (in my view) post on the subject
I've seen in a long time.
ecj
Are you sure Benson isn't using rest strokes for his fast stuff? My
impression of things that he has said in interviews and discussions
that I've read online with people like Henry Johnson is that he sets
up a lot of his fingering patterns to allow use of the rest stroke
technique to play quick passages. This is what all the gypsy
guitarists do, and may be why Lagrene sounds so much like Benson
despite not holding his pick in the same way.
I don't disagree that you can adapt the approach to include circle
picking, but Rodney Jones is adamant about the use of rest stroke
picking from what I understand from his writings and those of his
students.
Bill C
> "Bill C" <billcou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Thanks for this. I just checked and I definitely pick with the flat
side of the pick. Picking with the neck-facing edge sounds scratchy
when I do it. I found picking with the bridge-facing edge gives some
more note definition but puts a lot of strain on the wrist and seems
to restrict the free movement of the wrist (non-anchored) and use of
the remaining fingers as Tim said. YMMV!
tom walls
Oddly, for me the link was not included in this post. Now it's showed
up in Paul's more recent post.
Tim McNamara
<319213b0-27e3-4c14...@o39g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
paul <pcsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, Paul. I enjoyed those.
Well, hey, Ladybird is one of my favorite songs to play. I liked what
you played a lot on that one, better than what I usually play on it. I
also like what you played on Lady Be Good. You've got a nice sense of
swing in your lines and there is a consistent logic to what you play.
Nice.
As for commenting on your tone, it's hard to say what's the tone from
your picking and what's the tone from your guitar, how much of it is
from the amp versus the mic picking up the acoustic sound of the guitar,
etc. Overall the sound was very acoustic to me. If it's what you're
looking for, then that's great. It doesn't sound bad at all, it's just
not what I am looking for in my tone. FWIW I liked your tone on Lady Be
Good a little better than that on Ladybird, but that's a matter of taste.
To my ears Benson picking generally creates a kind of breathy or open
sound that I just don't particularly care for; there's a kind of jangle
or something that reminds me more of bluegrass or country than jazz. I
don't even particularly care for it when Benson does it- I vastly prefer
the sound of the pre-Breezin' Benson, back in his organ trio days.
Clearly millions of people disagree with me, however, and I certainly
can't say they're wrong.
Tim McNamara
<4eb4d3a5-2e5d-4b17...@n18g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
ecj <eva...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have never been able to make the slightest sense out of the utility
rest strokes when playing with a pick. I find it to be an awkward
technique that interferes with playing. Rest strokes when playing
fingerstyle nylon string with the wider spacing happen more readily but
even there I rarely use them. YMMV.
sheetsofsound
> In article
> <319213b0-27e3-4c14-82cb-146016528...@o39g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
pre breezin' benson.
S'mee
attempts at mimicking it bring you farther from your own truth(and
his). When Benson plays fast there are no rest strokes, same with the
gypsy guys, fast = small = free strokes....unless there is sweeping of
coarse. Focusing on minor details of technique is putting the cart
before the horse and is counterproductive.
sheetsofsound
no it's not a silly topic. It's an important one that is taught
proactively by sheryl bailey and rodney jones and many others.
ecj
> When Benson plays fast there are no rest strokes, same with the
> gypsy guys, fast = small = free strokes....unless there is sweeping of
> coarse. Focusing on minor details of technique is putting the cart
> before the horse and is counterproductive.
This is just not true. Many gypsy players are using rest strokes on
even their fastest playing. They often describe the "bounce" off of
the rest stroke as the secret to their speed. Check out Michael
Horowitz's book on the subject.
sheetsofsound
but benson's not using rest strokes on his fast playing.
Tim McNamara
<3bbd3863-2d7c-430d...@r17g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you? You might be right, it's been a long time since I listened to
Benson. And the tone of the guitar may just sound different in a
different setting (e.g., set against a Hammond B-3). Might be that I
just prefer that setting and am transferring that to the guitar tone. I
really had a strong dislike of the "Breezin'" album back in the 80s,
which could have colored my perception.
Tim McNamara
<5440f7a2-70b7-4135...@s18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
ecj <eva...@gmail.com> wrote:
Gypsy players are among the most vocal about the use of the rest stroke
and playing at high speed is essential to that style.
Tim McNamara
<7c00ac9d-42b4-433f...@hd10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Agreed- gotta find the techniques that produce the sound you want, and
this is one approach to check out. Just because I find it awkward and
don't like it doesn't mean it's not the right thing for someone else.
And, heck, Sheryl in particular sounds fabulous.
hw
"ecj" <eva...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4eb4d3a5-2e5d-4b17...@n18g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
>
> Are you sure Benson isn't using rest strokes for his fast stuff? My
> impression of things that he has said in interviews and discussions
> that I've read online with people like Henry Johnson is that he sets
> up a lot of his fingering patterns to allow use of the rest stroke
> technique to play quick passages. This is what all the gypsy
> guitarists do, and may be why Lagrene sounds so much like Benson
> despite not holding his pick in the same way.
benson uses rest strokes for the fast stuff. nothing to discuss there. and
you're spot on about the fingering patterns too.
Dan Adler
> "ecj" <evan...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:4eb4d3a5-2e5d-4b17...@n18g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
Nice to have you back!
sheetsofsound
no he doesn't
sheetsofsound
all you have to do is listen to is quadruple time playing on jimmy
smith's off the top. It's easy to hear he's not using rest strokes on
the ultra fast stuff there
hw
"sheetsofsound" <jackz...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:eb348025-2b35-4dd5...@b13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
rest strokes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn27IcAapPI&feature=related
rest strokes:
(watch closely at 2:47)
or ask rodney jones. i did.
sheetsofsound
> "sheetsofsound" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:eb348025-2b35-4dd5...@b13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 3, 6:07 am, "hw" <ns...@home.net> wrote:
> >> "ecj" <evan...@gmail.com> schrieb im
> >> Newsbeitragnews:4eb4d3a5-2e5d-4b17...@n18g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Are you sure Benson isn't using rest strokes for his fast stuff? My
> >> > impression of things that he has said in interviews and discussions
> >> > that I've read online with people like Henry Johnson is that he sets
> >> > up a lot of his fingering patterns to allow use of the rest stroke
> >> > technique to play quick passages. This is what all the gypsy
> >> > guitarists do, and may be why Lagrene sounds so much like Benson
> >> > despite not holding his pick in the same way.
>
> >> benson uses rest strokes for the fast stuff. nothing to discuss there.
> >> and
> >> you're spot on about the fingering patterns too.
>
> > no he doesn't
>
> rest strokes:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn27IcAapPI&feature=related
>
> rest strokes:
>
>
> (watch closely at 2:47)
>
> or ask rodney jones. i did.
if rodney says he does than I will retract my claim. Thanks for
clarifying. I still don't think he's using rest strokes on off the
top. Take a listen . The fast stuff sounds way different than the
clips you posted.
hw
"sheetsofsound" <jackz...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:eb348025-2b35-4dd5...@b13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
why don't you take a few lessons from dan wilson? i'm sure i would.
here he is, using rest strokes exclusively:
sheetsofsound
> "sheetsofsound" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:eb348025-2b35-4dd5...@b13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
not disputing you but how in the world can you see whether he's using
rest strokes on the fast stuff you a tiny video at that speed?
hw
"sheetsofsound" <jackz...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:64d6d61e-d1ac-4b0e...@18g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
i worked hard on that technique and i can easily see and hear it. to me it's
so obvious that i wonder how anyone can *not* see it ;)
tom walls
> To my ears Benson picking generally creates a kind of breathy or open
> sound that I just don't particularly care for; there's a kind of jangle
> or something that reminds me more of bluegrass or country than jazz. I
> don't even particularly care for it when Benson does it- I vastly prefer
> the sound of the pre-Breezin' Benson, back in his organ trio days.
> Clearly millions of people disagree with me, however, and I certainly
> can't say they're wrong.
>
I used to think this also, but have since heard so many people use the
technique that don't sound like this, that I concluded that the tone
wasn't the result of the picking. By the way, I don't mind listening
to people with that tone at ll, it's just not what I'm going for. I
feel the same way about effects, etc. I can enjoy others using them,
but that's not what I want to hear when I'm playing the guitar.
Usually.
tom walls
+1
Daniel Martin
sheetsofsound
> "sheetsofsound" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:64d6d61e-d1ac-4b0e...@18g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
ok, i'll take your word for it! Have you switched to that technique
full time now?
Bg
wrote:
He tears it up here too.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn27IcAapPI&feature=related>
Bg
Daniel Martin
That vid's awesome definitely!! His expression at the end of his solo
is fantastic....... wouldn't fancy following that myself!!
ecj
> "sheetsofsound" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:eb348025-2b35-4dd5...@b13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 3, 6:07 am, "hw" <ns...@home.net> wrote:
> >> "ecj" <evan...@gmail.com> schrieb im
> >> Newsbeitragnews:4eb4d3a5-2e5d-4b17...@n18g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Are you sure Benson isn't using rest strokes for his fast stuff? My
> >> > impression of things that he has said in interviews and discussions
> >> > that I've read online with people like Henry Johnson is that he sets
> >> > up a lot of his fingering patterns to allow use of the rest stroke
> >> > technique to play quick passages. This is what all the gypsy
> >> > guitarists do, and may be why Lagrene sounds so much like Benson
> >> > despite not holding his pick in the same way.
>
> >> benson uses rest strokes for the fast stuff. nothing to discuss there.
> >> and
> >> you're spot on about the fingering patterns too.
>
> > no he doesn't
>
> rest strokes:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn27IcAapPI&feature=related
>
> rest strokes:
>
>
> (watch closely at 2:47)
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
There are some really great shots in the Workshop Live Breezin' Lounge
series, too. Jody Fisher really makes him slow some stuff down and
demonstrate it.
http://www.workshoplive.com/georgebenson/
It's really interesting hearing Benson talk about the limitations of
his own technique, and how envious he was (is?) of Pat Martino. After
playing with a it a lot, I can see how it would be difficult to use it
for super technical shred stuff, but I think it really fits well into
the jazz idiom. Somehow all that downpicking just makes bop phrases
really comfortable.
tom walls
> He tears it up here too.
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn27IcAapPI&feature=related>
>
> Bg
Damn! 34 years ago. Those were the days.
Tim Sprout
> Are you sure Benson isn't using rest strokes for his fast stuff? My
> impression of things that he has said in interviews and discussions
> that I've read online with people like Henry Johnson is that he sets
> up a lot of his fingering patterns to allow use of the rest stroke
> technique to play quick passages. This is what all the gypsy
> guitarists do, and may be why Lagrene sounds so much like Benson
> despite not holding his pick in the same way.
This implies to me that they play two notes per string in descending
runs, say from G string to D string to A string. Is this correct? Or
multiples of two notes.
-Tim Sprout
sheetsofsound
wait, you're not trying to say he uses exclusively downpicking are you?
ecj
>
> - Show quoted text -
No way - he'd have to have hummingbird wings for hands.
I'm just saying that starting each string change with a downpick rest-
stroke gives me a really secure, comfortable feel when playing jazz.
Seems to work for the gypsy guys, too.
For what it's worth, sheets, I studied with a really great guitarist
in college who is an absolute Benson freak. He really nails the sound
and the attack, but he only uses the rest stroke thing 75-80% of the
time. He was definitely comfortable doing free strokes, and could do
standard alternate picking really fast using the Benson grip. He was
the guy who first turned me onto the grip, although it's taken me
years as a hobbyist to understand exactly what he was explaining and
put it into practice.
I wouldn't be surprised if Benson mixes in some non "gypsy picking"
work into his playing, although I haven't seen any videos where he
demonstrates it. He does seem to use a lot of upstrokes when he's on
the high E string, which is something I've seen a lot of older blues
guitarists do, too.
Mondoslug
This been on here?
sheetsofsound
dan wilson uses rest strokes on the downstroke only
ecj
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is what I'm suggesting that Benson does, too. I feel like we're
miscommunicating. It's kind of hard to describe these things, and
maybe I'm not doing a good job of being clear.
I think that most of the time Benson:
- uses rest downstrokes
- starts every string change with a rest downstroke
- follows the rest downstroke with a free upstroke when playing
consecutive notes on the same string
- uses L-hand fingering patterns with occaisional hammers and pulls to
maximize the efficiency and comfort of this approach
And, then I also see him mix in a lot of upstroke sweeps to play cool
little descending arpeggios, and play a lot of free upstrokes on the
high E-string, especially when he's playing "bluesy" licks.
I'm no expert, just someone interested in it, so I'm open to learning
more if this is an incomplete picture of the technique.
I think the advantage of the picking is that you can relax your body
on every rest downstroke to eliminate tension, like the gypsy pickers
do.
ScotGormley
>
> - Show quoted text -
There's a Mike's Master Classes session with Jack Wilkins and Sheryl
Bailey, and she discusses and demonstrates the technique, too. I asked
her about it during a clinic she did here in Columbus, too, and she
provided some great input. I think the technique works really great
for jazz, but it makes it hard to mute unplayed strings when played as
George, Rodney, or Sheryl. You may get howling/feedback with higher
volumes--Benson has mentioned that his "technique flies out the
window" when volume gets too high.
It also generally requires that your achtop have a pickguard, since
the hand lightly touches the pickguard, generally, as a point of
reference. My pickguards are all lightly scratched up from the motion
of my ring and index finger brushing against the guard.
ScotGormley
>
> - Show quoted text -
Also, I wonder your thoughts on the feasbility of mastering both the
Benson and traditional methods? I keep going back to traditional
picking for rock and blues, for example. The transition seems to get
easier as time goes by.
ecj
>
> - Show quoted text -
Are you asking me? I know that I'm not any less able to pick in the
traditional style because I've learned Benson picking. I get rusty,
since I rarely use it, but given a sufficient warmup I can do my "old
thing" just as well as ever. Keep in mind that I started Benson
picking because I was never very good at alternate picking and was
looking for something that worked better for me. If my technique was
as advanced as sheets', I probably wouldn't have bothered.
If you've got the time, I don't see why you couldn't do both. There
are plenty of woodwind players who play three kinds of saxes, a flute,
two clarinets, etc. I don't see why a guitar player couldn't figure
out a couple of different ways to hold the pick if they were dedicated.
ScotGormley
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks.
hw
"sheetsofsound" <jackz...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4b3bc9c8-8086-46c7...@o21g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 3, 8:29 am, "hw" <ns...@home.net> wrote:
>
> ok, i'll take your word for it! Have you switched to that technique
> full time now?
yes.
here#s another good one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMH5beI142E&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
at 3:00: check out the next 15 seconds.
icarusi
news:45441673-33eb-40b7...@o21g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> all you have to do is listen to is quadruple time playing on jimmy
smith's off the top. It's easy to hear he's not using rest strokes on
the ultra fast stuff there. <<
Rest strokes are the biproduct of a *big stroke* intended to be loud on an
acoustic instrument. The more you pick in the direction in-to-out of the
instrument, the more you'll approach rest strokes, but for higher speed it's
excess movement. With heavier gauge strings there could be some spring-back
effect but it would only be contributing at a fixed rate. OTOH rest stroke
playing has a more staccato sound in some ways, as each high-to-low string
move has a 'mute' action on the higher string.
BTW currently 'Flight of the Bumblebee' @340 bpm is the time to beat (with
no mistakes).
icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
http://icarusi.wordpress.com/
icarusi
news:timmcn-35B634....@news.iphouse.com...
> Gypsy players are among the most vocal about the use of the rest stroke
> and playing at high speed is essential to that style.
They generally play acoustically loud, even though they're usually amped, so
the need that 'big stroke'. Only rest strokes will give them that sound,
even at speed, but it's not the reason for the speed.
Tim McNamara
<9ff7bed2-84be-48a0...@o21g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
tom walls <tomw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 2, 7:56 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>
> > To my ears Benson picking generally creates a kind of breathy or
> > open sound that I just don't particularly care for; there's a kind
> > of jangle or something that reminds me more of bluegrass or country
> > than jazz. I don't even particularly care for it when Benson does
> > it- I vastly prefer the sound of the pre-Breezin' Benson, back in
> > his organ trio days. Clearly millions of people disagree with me,
> > however, and I certainly can't say they're wrong.
> >
>
> I used to think this also, but have since heard so many people use
> the technique that don't sound like this, that I concluded that the
> tone wasn't the result of the picking.
That's interesting.
> By the way, I don't mind listening to people with that tone at ll,
> it's just not what I'm going for. I feel the same way about effects,
> etc. I can enjoy others using them, but that's not what I want to
> hear when I'm playing the guitar. Usually.
I often enjoy listening to guitarists who don't sound like how I try to
sound.
paul
> Again, not a commentary on your playing, which is great. Just my
> observations based on my investigations into the Benson picking thing.
this is a really good post, thanks!
sheetsofsound
> "sheetsofsound" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:4b3bc9c8-8086-46c7...@o21g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 3, 8:29 am, "hw" <ns...@home.net> wrote:
>
> > ok, i'll take your word for it! Have you switched to that technique
> > full time now?
>
> yes.
>
> here#s another good one.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMH5beI142E&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
>
> at 3:00: check out the next 15 seconds.
by the way, dan uses rest strokes on the downstrokes only. Is that
what you do?
Bg
> This been on here?
>
> http://vimeo.com/8061718
Wow, thanks for that.
Man, some of those guys are Youing.
Bg
sheetsofsound
bad ass playing.
hw
"sheetsofsound" <jackz...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:66d819be-721e-46e1...@o30g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
i've never heard of anyone doing upstrokes as reststrokes.
sheetsofsound
> "sheetsofsound" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:66d819be-721e-46e1...@o30g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
thanks for the info dude! It's really helped. I think I am going to
take some lessons with Dan and try to get that picking together.
Luke Brouillette
> "sheetsofsound" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:66d819be-721e-46e1...@o30g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
I have a feeling John McGlaughlin does it.
Greger Hoel
> i've never heard of anyone doing upstrokes as reststrokes.
IIRC, both Myles Gorham and Mark Kleinhaut stated they rest stroked both
ways, a while back. I've always played with minimal pick motion, but have
gotten somewhat comfortable with resting the downstrokes over the last few
years, but resting on upstrokes too, well, I tried it and quickly realised
it's not for me.
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/
icarusi
news:ikq8mo$9vq$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
>> by the way, dan uses rest strokes on the downstrokes only. Is that
>> what you do?
>
> i've never heard of anyone doing upstrokes as reststrokes.
I was wondering about that. It's possible if you use the pick pointing
downwards on an upstroke of inward-to-outward picking, but as most pick
players using rest strokes point the pick upwards, the dowstroke gets the
rest strokes. For finger players, especially bass, the upstroke is more
likely to have a rest stoke. I do it on bass, sometimes on nylon, but not on
steel strung.
Dan Adler
> "sheetsofsound" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:66d819be-721e-46e1...@o30g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
I'm pretty sure Ulf Wakenius does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASa8_sxGUxs
He rests on the string below on upstrokes and the downstroke is free.
It's sort of the mirror image of gypsy, and works very well. I can do
a pretty good job at it, but it requires a mental shift...
Paul Mitchell Brown
Single string slide players play upstroke reststrokes regularly. If
you want to play clean, an upstroke to the next string will dampen any
extra sympathetic resonance. It's more subtle when playing with
fingers rather than slide but it can add definition to sustained
tones.
vwti...@gmail.com
> this started as a reply to jack z on youtube about my switching to
> benson picking. it's a bit long, and I feel like pontificating, so
> I'll post it here.
>
> I am almost embarassed at how long it took me to switch. it probably
> took me 4-5 years before my "old" way of picking felt uncomfortable.
> there was a long period of time where I would switch back and forth,
> start out picking one way and then finding myself switched at the end
> of a solo.
>
> I do feel pretty good about switching because I think it has allowed
> me to play with a much better time feel than I used to have. I don't
> think the technique is necessarily responsible for this, more that the
> process of switching allowed me to re-learn things that would have
> been hard otherwise. nowadays, when I post a sound clip, I get
> compliments on my time feel, which is awesome, because back in the old
> days, it was always the weak link in my playing and everyone said so
> (instructors, other newsgroup members, etc).
>
> my time definitely isn't perfect now, and still needs a lot of work,
> but listening to clips of mine 10 years ago and now, there is no
> question I've made big changes to my overall time feel, and I feel
> pretty good about that.
>
> one thing I've taken away from getting feedback here is that overly
> specific advice about the technique should be taken with a grain of
> salt. I've had people tell me my thumb isn't bent enough, blah blah
> blah, but then you go and watch dan wilson or even benson sometimes
> and their thumbs are almost straight. I think dan adler is right that
> it really is all about rest strokes and getting a thumblike sound.
>
> anyways, enough blathering, just wanted to post some thoughts before I
> start practicing.
>
> --paul
vwti...@gmail.com
Mr Maj6th
<joeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>play the music.
>who gives a shit how anyone else plays, be it benson or anyone.
>i myself have indulged in this discussion in the past, and have come to forgive myself for the gratuitous, self-wasting of my time.
>what is this great need to get input from others?
>i pick great-so who cares?
>i'm just glad i do.
>part of maturing is to be confident of oneself.
>that doesn't mean stop growing or seeking.
>it means stop asking everybody what they think of you all the time.
>it means be yourself.
>a much more productive discussion would be why we all need to be constantly
>reassured that we are good...
>i am though, waiting for the day one of you benson slicers saw your guitar in half.
>that would be a tangible result of benson picking.
>benson, benson, benson...
Plus 1.....
Maj6th
David J. Littleboy
"Mr Maj6th" wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:15:55 -0700 (PDT), "Joe G."
<joeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, February 28, 2011 7:21:27 PM UTC-5, paul wrote:
>>
>> I am almost embarassed at how long it took me to switch. it probably
>> took me 4-5 years before my "old" way of picking felt uncomfortable.
>> there was a long period of time where I would switch back and forth,
>> start out picking one way and then finding myself switched at the end
>> of a solo.
>>
>> I do feel pretty good about switching because I think it has allowed
>> me to play with a much better time feel than I used to have. I don't
>> think the technique is necessarily responsible for this, more that the
>> process of switching allowed me to re-learn things that would have
>> been hard otherwise. nowadays, when I post a sound clip, I get
>> compliments on my time feel, which is awesome, because back in the old
>> days, it was always the weak link in my playing and everyone said so
>> (instructors, other newsgroup members, etc).
>>
>
>what a waste of time all this talk of picking.
>play the music.
>who gives a shit how anyone else plays, be it benson or anyone.
Maj6th
<<<<<<<<<<
Count me in for a minus one here.
That used to be how I felt. In the short term, I still feel that way. My
problem is musical content, not speed. But my guitar teach does "Benson
picking". He uses it to get the most outrageously gorgeous tone imaginable
from his Super 400. So long term, at some point I will (hopefully!) need to
redo my picking. (And probably move back to my "L5 from Hell", putting up
with the rattles to get that sound.)
I think Paul's point, that picking isn't just about speed, is exceptionally
well taken. It's an important part of guitar technique and affects your
presentation of the music, albeit one that I'm not at a stage where working
on it is important enough to take the time away from working on things like
chord melody arrangements and a better feel for bebop lines.
-- David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
thomas
Gerry
> what a waste of time all this talk of picking.
> play the music.
> who gives a shit how anyone else plays, be it benson or anyone.
number of techniques to consider. Unlike many other instruments we all
stort of stumble around trying one after another and trying to find the
approach that is best for us; gives us the most flexibility, the most
precision and dependability, a suitable attack and so forth. I think
"giving a shit" about this is paramount no matter how it's described
"benson" or some other way.
> i myself have indulged in this discussion in the past, and have come to
> forgive myself for the gratuitous, self-wasting of my time.
> what is this great need to get input from others?
> i pick great-so who cares?
> i'm just glad i do.
music they play changes so the techniques they previously used don't
apply any more.
> part of maturing is to be confident of oneself.
> that doesn't mean stop growing or seeking.
> it means stop asking everybody what they think of you all the time.
> it means be yourself.
but now you've matured and don't. Don't you othink others should have
the good sense to do what you did?
> a much more productive discussion would be why we all need to be constantly
> reassured that we are good...
doing. Some of us need to discuss it with others to find out other
potentional solutions to address our difficulties. That's learning to.
Not all learning comes from inside. In fact most of it does not come
from the ether, it comes from listening, watching, asking and junking
old approaches that have outlived their utility.
> i am though, waiting for the day one of you benson slicers saw your
> guitar in half.
> that would be a tangible result of benson picking.
> benson, benson, benson...
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden
Gerry
> If you want max fat tone, drop the pick and use your thumb.
David J. Littleboy
"Gerry" wrote:
Because some of us are not good, or are unsatisfied with what we're
doing.
<<<<<<<<<<<<
point. But for most folks, I'd guess that most of the time, they aren't
working on RH technique.
But it's going to be an issue for most people several times during their
lives: you sometimes just don't know when.
For example here, I was really happy with the sound I was getting from thick
(1.0 mm or thicker) picks. But it turned out that my rhythm was poor, and
that just moving to a thinner pick (and thinking about being a bit more
precise) improved my rendering of lines quite a bit. And now I get a better
sound with a thinner (0.7 mm) pick. Given all the discussion here about how
wonderful 1.5 mm and thicker picks are, I never would have even thought to
try a thinner pick. Go figure.
>>>>>>>>
Some of us need to discuss it with others to find out other
potentional solutions to address our difficulties. That's learning to.
Not all learning comes from inside. In fact most of it does not come
from the ether, it comes from listening, watching, asking and junking
old approaches that have outlived their utility.
<<<<<<<<<