Is Steve Erquiaga alive?
M. Machado
I have a 1990 cd called "Erquiology", which is great, and have been waiting
new releases from jazz guitarist Steve Erquiaga since then.
Nothing... Not in catalogs, or NYC Virgin Records, etc.
If you have any info on where I can find other cds of Erquiaga and his band,
please write to mont...@dialdata.com.br
---ja...@acy.digex.net
In article <69ufq7$h...@snews2.zippo.com>, "M. Machado"
<mont...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I believe his website is at www.erquiaga.com
n...@emerald.cns.net.au
You can catch up with Steve at www.erquiaga.com.....I did. He's
getting a new one out in February. His site has some music
transcipton to download and some strange stuff too....and he answers
his mail and has a mailing list.
I 've been a huge fan of Steve's since I heard a NZ record in the
early 80's called Parallel37 on which he and John Scofield play with
some local Kiwi musos. His playing covers a lot of bases on this
release with an absolutely burning version of MIles' "Seven Steps To
Heaven" which has just about every improvisational form in it. Great
player and shamefully overlooked INHO.
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:07:12 -0200, "M. Machado"
JFR
In <34c322c4...@news.netstra.com.au> n...@emerald.cns.net.au
writes:
I have one of his records, I think it is the one mentioned above. I
hate to say it, but it is pretty unremarkable to me. Sounds like a
Carlton clone to me. Maybe I need to hear some of his other stuff?
What else is out there?
John R>
kol...@lmb.uni-muenchen.de
> I have one of his records, I think it is the one mentioned above. I
> hate to say it, but it is pretty unremarkable to me. Sounds like a
> Carlton clone to me. Maybe I need to hear some of his other stuff?
> What else is out there?
>
> John R>
Although I am also not so wild about the "Erkiology "album I'd like to
know what the previous poster means by "Carlton clone"? First of all,
Steve for sure does not sound like Larry Carlton (not even close!,
although I like Steve a lot, too) and secondly, I think n o b o d y else
does. You don't sound like Larry when you buy an ES-335 and start to hack
on it through a Boogie Mark-1! Have you tried to play any of Larry's solos
fluently? If you did, you'd realize how difficult that is. There's hardly
any note that comes out of obvious scalar movements. On top of that, his
bending, sliding etc. techniques are truly fabulous. Larry is, at least in
my opinion, one of the original contemporary guitar voices . He is
sometimes discredited because his music falls mostly in the pop category.
As if the category gave you any bonus a priori. It may be dangerous to say
that here: I have heard a lot of boring straight ahead jazz music, too.
Another stunning player -for whom much of the above said is true- is Jay
Graydon. He even gets way less credit than Larry.
James West
In article <kolanus-3101...@141.84.49.38>,
kol...@lmb.uni-muenchen.de wrote:
> > I have one of his records, I think it is the one mentioned above. I
> > hate to say it, but it is pretty unremarkable to me. Sounds like a
> > Carlton clone to me. Maybe I need to hear some of his other stuff?
> > What else is out there?
> >
Larry is, at least in
> my opinion, one of the original contemporary guitar voices . He is
> sometimes discredited because his music falls mostly in the pop category.
For the uninitiatied, listen to Larry's extended solo on "Mulberry Street"
(Strikes Twice). Find me a pop musician/guitarist who could play through
those changes and make some of the most obvious cliches sound like their
own! After 20 years, this tune still blows me away. After hearing
"Mulberry Street," I became convinced that had he wanted to, Larry surely
could have played through Giant Steps, Countdown, or whatever he wanted.
It may be dangerous to say
> that here: I have heard a lot of boring straight ahead jazz music, too.
Agreed. I call it "headache" jazz - a twenty minute self-indulgent horn
solo that is accessible only to horn players with a Ph.D. in obtuse scale
structure. Interesting? Perhaps. Academic? Perhaps. Brilliant?
Perhaps. Boring? Definitely.
Jamie Tatro
--
"Like my friend Timon says, you gotta put your behind in your past."
Pumba, warthog extraordinaire
n...@emerald.cns.net.au
At the great risk of being called a "party-pooper", it's well known
that the Larry's soloing in "Mulberry Street" was sped up. (ie: Larry
played and recorded it at a much slower pace and pitch and then
raised it to match the backing in the mix). The give away for me is
the somewhat squeaky guitar tone. Once this "party trick" is
understood, it becomes pretty obvious. As I said, I hate to
disillusion anyone. It's great playing anyway.
After Steve E was described as a LC clone, I raced out to my trusty
turntable just to do a self-check. Nope, Steve E (on the early 80's
release I have) sounds nothing like LC - not that it's anyhting to be
ashamed of. I wouldn't pass up the chance to be called a "Larry
Carlton-clone" although it's very unlikely as I sound nothing like him
(and I mean nothing....)
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:31:18 -0500, jmt...@cyberstate.infi.net (James
West) wrote:
>For the uninitiatied, listen to Larry's extended solo on "Mulberry Street"
>(Strikes Twice). Find me a pop musician/guitarist who could play through
>those changes and make some of the most obvious cliches sound like their
>own! After 20 years, this tune still blows me away. After hearing
>"Mulberry Street," I became convinced that had he wanted to, Larry surely
>could have played through Giant Steps, Countdown, or whatever he wanted.
>
>Jamie Tatro
>
>--
NOSPA...@voicenet.com
In article <jmtdrt-3101...@pm25-3-70.cae.infi.net>,
jmt...@cyberstate.infi.net (James West) wrote:
>In article <kolanus-3101...@141.84.49.38>,
>kol...@lmb.uni-muenchen.de wrote:
>
>> > I have one of his records, I think it is the one mentioned above. I
>> > hate to say it, but it is pretty unremarkable to me. Sounds like a
>> > Carlton clone to me. Maybe I need to hear some of his other stuff?
>> > What else is out there?
Missed the original thread here, but if anyone's looking for a great Carlton
album to get their feet wet they'd have to pick up "Last Nite." Live
recording (some horn overdubs) of mostly standards (Miles), blues, and some
typical Carlton compositions. Great playing, great tone, great ear.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <34d4168...@news.netstra.com.au> n...@emerald.cns.net.au writes:
>At the great risk of being called a "party-pooper", it's well known
>that the Larry's soloing in "Mulberry Street" was sped up. (ie: Larry
>played and recorded it at a much slower pace and pitch and then
>raised it to match the backing in the mix). The give away for me is
>the somewhat squeaky guitar tone. Once this "party trick" is
>understood, it becomes pretty obvious. As I said, I hate to
>disillusion anyone. It's great playing anyway.
I think you're correct about the record, but I've also heard him play
that tune live, and he doesn't need the studio tricks to burn on it.
The guy is a monster guitar player, and extremely original. He only
sounds cliche sometimes because ten thousand other guys have copped
his stuff and already bored you with it.
ivy thomas
I like "Friends" best. "Song for the 5th Grade" "LA to NY"... killer!
Ivy
Michael Bierly
ivy thomas wrote:
>
> I like "Friends" best. "Song for the 5th Grade" "LA to NY"... killer!
>
> Ivy
If you're a Larry Carlton fan and haven't heard "Last Nite" -- its a
live one from 1987, check it out. Nice versions of So What and ALl
Blues.
Mick
AKingA
>Subject: Re: Larry Carlton
>From: tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu ()
>Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 03:41 EST
>Message-id: <6b1cfn$9...@news.jhu.edu>
Farlow, John Abercrombie, Larry Coryell, John Scofield, and Larry Carlton w/
(John Patitucci on bass and Billy Hart on drums. Tunes include Misty,
Meditation, Autumn Leaves, My Romance and All Blues. The player solos in turn
on each tune. Through-out, Larry Coryell blazes through his solos, chops
galore. The rest, including Carlton are generally laid back. On the final
cut, all the players trade high speed solos with Carlton playing last. It
appeared that he wished to make a point with the manner in which he cut lose
with a furious stream of notes in a most articulate and masterful technique.
IMHO he totally humbled Mr. Coryell.
JFR
In <kolanus-3101...@141.84.49.38> kol...@lmb.uni-muenchen.de
writes:
>
>> I have one of his records, I think it is the one mentioned above. I
>> hate to say it, but it is pretty unremarkable to me. Sounds like a
>> Carlton clone to me. Maybe I need to hear some of his other stuff?
>> What else is out there?
>>
>
>
>Although I am also not so wild about the "Erkiology "album I'd like to
>know what the previous poster means by "Carlton clone"? First of all,
>Steve for sure does not sound like Larry Carlton (not even close!,
>although I like Steve a lot, too) and secondly, I think n o b o d y
else
>does. You don't sound like Larry when you buy an ES-335 and start to
hack
>on it through a Boogie Mark-1! Have you tried to play any of Larry's
solos
>fluently? If you did, you'd realize how difficult that is. There's
hardly
>any note that comes out of obvious scalar movements. On top of that,
his
least in
>my opinion, one of the original contemporary guitar voices . He is
>sometimes discredited because his music falls mostly in the pop
category.
say
>that here: I have heard a lot of boring straight ahead jazz music,
too.
Jay
>Graydon. He even gets way less credit than Larry.
First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to me,
so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me. Second,
I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
melodic, yes, anything really new or very creative, no. Direct me to
some specific recorded examples and I will revisit. I have all of his
solo records and all of his recordings as a sideman with the Crusaders.
I did transcribe some of his solos (not written out, but memorized) in
my formative years and they were pretty straight forward, even for me
at that point of ability.
Any records by Jay Graydon available? I have never heard of him.
On a semi-related thought - does anyone have the "All Strings Attached"
cd and/or video with Scofield, Abercrombie, Coryell, Tal Farlow and
Larry Carlton performing a concert in southern CA? Does anyone know
the sequence of soloists on "All Blues"? That information could make
or break these thoughts I have about Carlton.
John R>
---ja...@acy.digex.net
In article <6bcf94$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR)
wrote:
> In <kolanus-3101...@141.84.49.38> kol...@lmb.uni-muenchen.de
> writes:
> >
> >
> >> I have one of his records, I think it is the one mentioned above. I
> >> hate to say it, but it is pretty unremarkable to me. Sounds like a
> >> Carlton clone to me. Maybe I need to hear some of his other stuff?
> >> What else is out there?
> First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to me,
> so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me.
Having been a pro guitarist for over 20 years, I regard the above as
indicative of the problem with many current Jazz guitarists. It seems that
tone is down on the list of priorities - eg. Mark Whitfield, Russ Malone,
Dave Stryker, Paul Bollenback, Jimmy Bruno, Joshua Breakstone, etc.....
While they are all very good players, their tone is somewhat lacking to
me. Even a GREAT player like Mick Goodrick has recorded using a headless
CORT guitar with awful tone!
It seems to me that other instrumentalists (sax, trumpet, etc...) spend a
lot of time in their formative years developing "tone"; something many
guitarists don't do.
Who do I consider to have great tone or awareness of it?
Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, Pat Metheny, Bill Frisell, John Scofield...
Even players like Marc Ducret, Nels Cline, Marc Ribot - who are often
maligned by the jazz guitar traditionalists - have a "conception" of their
tone which gives them a distinct voice.
I think that in 1998, jazz guitarists should not be plugging an L5 (or
some other arch top) into a Polytone and just playing. This was done by
players like Montgomery, Jimmy Raney, and others in that generation and
it's time to move on.
Just my opinion,
Jack
Roger D. Placer
> First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to me,
> I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
> melodic, yes, anything really new or very creative, no.
Oh God, another Mark Whitfield-esque thread is now brewing! Opinions
are like that infamous part of the body that everyone has; surely
you have succinctly proven that axiom above.
What on Earth is "ingenious?" Is the type of frenetic "note soup"
produced by sax players like Coltrane (who I do love) the definition
of genius? Is it Wes' thumb-propelled octaves back in the time he
invented that style (certainly not now)? Gimme a break! The term is
much over-used; it's almost meaningless.
I differ with you rather strongly, as for one I dig good tone as
a pretty important characteristic. I happen to own "All Strings
Attached" and it's such a lame-ass recording that I've probably
listened to it twice. As for Larry C's tone on his solo
albums and with Steely Dan, there is major technique and attention
to playing detail in every note - even the ones that you consider
"solid" but not "new or very creative." I defy you to present
"genius" in the form of a currently living and active guitarist,
because the term is so abused and easily argued that it's pretty
much pointless. Find another adjective.
"Unique" comes to mind, perhaps. Unfortuately, I agree with the
general consensus that Larry has not exploited his abilities
composition-wise. His recent solo work is pretty bland, mainly
a product of cheesy radio-oriented production (wimpy snare drum,
ubiquitous DX7-era electric piano). His *playing* is awesome;
it's a shame he hasn't gotten together with some new blood
and pushed the envelope, like John McLaughlin has of late.
As for challenging you to find Carlton's playing interesting,
do you not have the "Last Nite" album? Although plagued by
bad production choices as well, Larry plays "So What" and
other standards on it. It's pretty cool if you ask me, and
is probably a fun example of jazz played really well with
a non-trad tone and instrument (overdriven Strat on at least
some tunes).
Whatever,
Roger
Gil Ayan
In article <6bcf94$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, JFR <jre...@ix.netcom.co> wrote:
>
>First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to me,
>so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me. Second,
>I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
>some specific recorded examples and I will revisit. I have all of his
>solo records and all of his recordings as a sideman with the Crusaders.
>I did transcribe some of his solos (not written out, but memorized) in
>my formative years and they were pretty straight forward, even for me
>at that point of ability.
I'll just throw this in as a point of interest. Before Larry got his sound
together in the 70s - he sounded pretty much like Wes before that- was there
anybody playing with a rock and roll sound, but using bebop lines? I don't
think so, so if that is not new or creative to you, okay, but it changed
the whole approach to electric guitar, here in L.A. without a doubt.
>Any records by Jay Graydon available? I have never heard of him.
Yes, a great many indeed. The most credited stuff he did was that knock out solo
on Steely Dan's "Peg." Go check out his site, which you can find at:
http://www.umu.se/personal/KEO/graytxt.htx
It has all kinds of information on his recordings, as well as links to places
where you can get them.
In addition to being a great guitarist, Jay has co-written some of the most popular
songs of the 80s, including "Turn Your Love Around," "Mornin'," "After the Love Is Gone,"
etc. His produced everyone from All Jarreau to The Manhattan Transfer, and has picked
up a couple of Grammy's along the path of his musical career. Last but not least, he's
a personal friend and very nice guy.
Gil
--
______ __ __ ______ __ __
/ __ / / /_/ / / __ / / \/ / Gil Ayan, Los Angeles, CA
/ /_/ / \__ / / /_/ / / / / / Email: ai...@lafn.org
/_/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/\__/ http://home.earthlink.net/~ayan
Andy Bullington
> It seems to me that other instrumentalists (sax, trumpet, etc...) spend a
> lot of time in their formative years developing "tone"; something many
> guitarists don't do.
>
> Who do I consider to have great tone or awareness of it?
>
> Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, Pat Metheny, Bill Frisell, John Scofield...
>
> Even players like Marc Ducret, Nels Cline, Marc Ribot - who are often
> maligned by the jazz guitar traditionalists - have a "conception" of
their
> tone which gives them a distinct voice.
>
> I think that in 1998, jazz guitarists should not be plugging an L5 (or
> some other arch top) into a Polytone and just playing. This was done by
> players like Montgomery, Jimmy Raney, and others in that generation and
> it's time to move on.
A courageous and controversial position I happen to agree with. I've always
wanted to hear the great blues tones of Albert King or Albert Collins
used in a jazz context. Collins' sophisticated rhythmic placement of
phrases and his odd note choices is a gold mine of possibilities.
Scofield has explored some of this, most notably on Hand Jive which
I like very much. Before that CD I found his tone to be too scratchy
but I've since come to like it. I like a tone that makes you think and
his cetainly does that. To the average person out there, TONE IS
EVERYTHING! Imagine Coltrane or Miles or Charlie Christian with some
squirelly little tone. I don't think so! Credit Carlton for bringing great
guitar tone out of the jazz closet.
Cheers
awb
James West
> First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to me,
> so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me. Second,
> I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
> melodic, yes, anything really new or very creative, no. Direct me to
> some specific recorded examples and I will revisit.
I commented in an earlier post that Larry "uses cliches and makes them his
own." To me, this is where Larry excels. Larry's reputation in the 70's
(among other things) was his capacity to "pick just the right note - the
best possible note - at the right time." This is extremely difficult to
do, since many notes or phrases may "work" - that is, they may be
acceptable, they may be melodically "correct." Larry seemed to be able to
take the corniest phrase, the most predictable cliche, and phrase it in
just the right way to "make it his own," to make it *seem* fresh and
innovative. This is not to suggest, of course, that every passage has
some type of singular "universal note" that must be discovered. Clearly,
it's a relative thing, and there certainly could be several, perhaps an
infinite number of "near perfect" note choices. I'm also reminded of
Howard Roberts' quote that "there's no such thing as a bad note, just poor
resolution." Thus, it's where the note is going that may be more
important than where it is in tempo. When I think of Larry doing this, I
think of multiple phrases in Mulberry Street, Room 335, Rio Samba, etc.
Jamie Tatro
--
"Like my friend Timon says, you gotta put your behind in your past."
Pumbaa, Warthog extraordinaire
Roland Kalus
>In article <6bcf94$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, JFR <jre...@ix.netcom.co> wrote:
>>
>>First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to me,
>>so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me.
Funny guy.... if tone is not a relatively important thing to you, I
think music in generell is'nt either your thing or what?!?
>>Second,
>>I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
>>melodic, yes, anything really new or very creative, no. Direct me to
>>some specific recorded examples and I will revisit. I have all of his
>>solo records and all of his recordings as a sideman with the Crusaders.
>>I did transcribe some of his solos (not written out, but memorized) in
>>my formative years and they were pretty straight forward, even for me
>>at that point of ability.
Mhhh, tell me on how many album have you recorded? And how many were
for others and how many solo records have you released. I never heard
about you and I am very interested to hear you playing, so maybe you
can give me some tips which of your records are best.
>>Any records by Jay Graydon available? I have never heard of him.
So maybe you are to young or from another planet.
Roland
http://larrycarlton.home.page.de
roland kalus**************phone: ++49(0)6131-509669
http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~vms
Home of the virtual music school for guitar, vox and
piano. Free online lessons**************************
Roland Kalus
You will find a detailed discography and a lot of other helpfull
info about Larry Carlon on his homepage at
http://larrycarlton.home.pages.de
Cheers
Roland
BTW: Last Nite is definitly his best album
Roland Kalus
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>On a semi-related thought - does anyone have the "All Strings Attached"
>cd and/or video with Scofield, Abercrombie, Coryell, Tal Farlow and
>Larry Carlton performing a concert in southern CA? Does anyone know
>the sequence of soloists on "All Blues"? That information could make
>or break these thoughts I have about Carlton.
UUPPS, if you are not able to hear who is playing what solo on this cd
I realy suggest you better stop talking about those guitarists.
Roland
Roger D. Placer
> >On a semi-related thought - does anyone have the "All Strings Attached"
> >cd and/or video with Scofield, Abercrombie, Coryell, Tal Farlow and
> >Larry Carlton performing a concert in southern CA?
Well, I'll tell ya - after making some negative comments about this CD
on a post yesterday, I brought it to work and am listening to it right
now. Let me say that my opinions have held up. This disc doesn't work
for the same reasons that group sex probably doesn't either, despite
the fantastic possibilities it may evoke.
Poor Billy Hart and John Pattituci. They've got to support a groove
that essentially has no legs! Four guitarists "comping" and trying
to be original at the same time, while the other one shows off his
"chops," and let me say that Scofield and
Carlton are the only guys on this date who sound good. Farlow and
Coryell are sloppy as hell, with dreadful tone. Abercrombie doesn't
really make an impression on me, but I can tell Farlow and Coryell
by their hollowbody sound. Carlton's on a Valley Arts Strat; the
two Johns play Ibanezes. (There's a picture of all of 'em on the
cover) Unfortunately, on "Autumn Leaves" of all things there is
a mini shred-fest led by (Abercrombie? Coryell?) that is just
a tad inappropriate. Save your pennies on this CD. Anyone else
have a different opinion? I'd really like to hear your reasons.
Roger
Gil Ayan
In article <6bemkc$c...@news.wiesbaden.netsurf.de>, Roland Kalus
>
>>In article <6bcf94$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, JFR <jre...@ix.netcom.co> wrote:
>>>I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
>>>melodic, yes, anything really new or very creative, no.
>Mhhh, tell me on how many album have you recorded? And how many were
>for others and how many solo records have you released.
Yo Roland, you are a kind person, no need to change that, right? The fact that
this other guy may or may not have any CDs out has nothing to do with his right
to have an opinion. I know you're a big fan of Larry's, but other people may not
be, and that shouldn't make any difference to you. You know better than that.
>I never heard
>about you and I am very interested to hear you playing, so maybe you
>can give me some tips which of your records are best.
In the words of Steve Morse, "the best guitar players probably make a living
selling insurance." How many people have records out and suck? How many GREAT
players go unnoticed and never get a recording contract?
Graydon D. Stuckey
On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Roger D. Placer wrote:
> > >On a semi-related thought - does anyone have the "All Strings Attached"
> > >cd and/or video with Scofield, Abercrombie, Coryell, Tal Farlow and
> > >Larry Carlton performing a concert in southern CA?
Got it, listened to it at lunch.
> "chops," and let me say that Scofield and
> Carlton are the only guys on this date who sound good. Farlow and
Even Carlton's tone isn't as good as usual. Its a little too bright.
His touch on this gig is as good as any performance I've heard from Larry
though.
Coryell are sloppy as hell, with dreadful tone. Abercrombie doesn't
> really make an impression on me, but I can tell Farlow and Coryell
Unfortunately, being a young buck myself, I haven't become acquainted
with the othe guys well enough to recognize their sounds, but Larry's
sound/style is immediately recognizable.
I felt that Larry put in a great performance. It seemed like he was
really trying to be creative in the presence of all these great guitar
players, and really played his heart out. Maybe the others did too,
but I can't comment on them. I thought the first track was the best.
"All Blues" gets too boring.
BTW, regarding Larry playing cliches... Larry was the one that invented
many of the cliches that were played in the 70s and 80s, so I think he's
entitled to play his own stuff. Those were jazz-oriented licks and scales
in a rock context. Listen to Steely Dan "The Royal Scam" for some great
examples of that.
Later,
Graydon D. Stuckey
gra...@apollo.kettering.edu <<< please note my new address!!!
810 733 0255
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>
>> First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to me,
>> I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
>> some specific recorded examples and I will revisit.
Check out his solo on "Third World Man" from Steely Dan's Gaucho album.
Really new? I don't know, although I can't think of anyone else who plays
anything close to that, except maybe Robben Ford on occasion. Creative
and beautiful, without a doubt.
Roland Kalus
On 6 Feb 1998 10:47:00 -0700, ai...@lafn.org (Gil Ayan) wrote:
>
>Yo Roland, you are a kind person, no need to change that, right? The fact that
>this other guy may or may not have any CDs out has nothing to do with his right
>to have an opinion. I know you're a big fan of Larry's, but other people may not
>be, and that shouldn't make any difference to you. You know better than that.
>
Hi Gil,
sorry - you are right. Sometimes I am just a little upset by people
arguing about other (mostly successful) musicians.. and if I hear
someone saying that "tone" is not important or plays no role I can't
resist to reply in such a way.
Cheers
Roland
:-)
JFR
In <6b1cfn$9...@news.jhu.edu> tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () writes:
>
>In article <34d4168...@news.netstra.com.au>
n...@emerald.cns.net.au writes:
>>At the great risk of being called a "party-pooper", it's well known
>>that the Larry's soloing in "Mulberry Street" was sped up. (ie:
Larry
>>played and recorded it at a much slower pace and pitch and then
>>raised it to match the backing in the mix). The give away for me is
>>the somewhat squeaky guitar tone. Once this "party trick" is
>>understood, it becomes pretty obvious. As I said, I hate to
>>disillusion anyone. It's great playing anyway.
>
>I think you're correct about the record, but I've also heard him play
>that tune live, and he doesn't need the studio tricks to burn on it.
>The guy is a monster guitar player, and extremely original. He only
>sounds cliche sometimes because ten thousand other guys have copped
>his stuff and already bored you with it.
>
>
Sorry to light the flame again on Larry, but to each his own, and he
really doesn't do a lot for me.
Your last statement brings out a great point - if thousands of guitar
players have copied him (which is always a doubtful idea, meaning that
he was truly the "first" at something), it proves that his style/tone
is relatively simple and "copyable". I can't say that about guys like
Scofield, Martino etc, who have lots of wannabe guys trying to play
like them, but never make it close enough to make the original sound
cliche.
Larry sounds cliche to my ears. But I realize that he has lots of
fans, so there must be something there that escapes my ears.
John R>
JFR
In <---jackjez-0502...@acc03213.slip.digex.net>
---jac...@acy.digex.net writes:
>
>In article <6bcf94$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR)
>wrote:
>
kol...@lmb.uni-muenchen.de
>> writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >> I have one of his records, I think it is the one mentioned above.
I
a
>> >> Carlton clone to me. Maybe I need to hear some of his other
stuff?
>> >> What else is out there?
me,
>> so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me.
>
>indicative of the problem with many current Jazz guitarists. It seems
that
>tone is down on the list of priorities - eg. Mark Whitfield, Russ
Malone,
>Dave Stryker, Paul Bollenback, Jimmy Bruno, Joshua Breakstone,
etc.....
>While they are all very good players, their tone is somewhat lacking
to
>me. Even a GREAT player like Mick Goodrick has recorded using a
headless
>CORT guitar with awful tone!
>
spend a
>lot of time in their formative years developing "tone"; something many
>guitarists don't do.
>
>Who do I consider to have great tone or awareness of it?
>
>Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, Pat Metheny, Bill Frisell, John
Scofield...
>
>Even players like Marc Ducret, Nels Cline, Marc Ribot - who are often
>maligned by the jazz guitar traditionalists - have a "conception" of
their
>tone which gives them a distinct voice.
>
>I think that in 1998, jazz guitarists should not be plugging an L5 (or
>some other arch top) into a Polytone and just playing. This was done
by
>players like Montgomery, Jimmy Raney, and others in that generation
and
>it's time to move on.
>
>Jack
I guess tone is very low on my list of important characteristics in
playing - the melodic, harmonic and rhythmic content are way up. But,
I see your point.
While I love Martino's tone, it gets muddy and hard to record, since it
is so low. I wish he had recorded with an engineer that knew how to
capture it better.
As far as your last point, I thought that an archtop into a polytone or
some other standard certified jazz amp was the only way to play jazz
guitar. This is because all I read is JJG. :)
John R>
JFR
In <6bck14$d...@nntpa.cb.lucent.com> "Roger D. Placer"
<rog...@lucent.com> writes:
>
>> First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to
me,
>> so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me.
>> I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
>> melodic, yes, anything really new or very creative, no.
>
I have all of Larry's records including Last Nite. That one does
little for me. By contrast, when I listen to Scofield play standards I
hear such a higher level of creativity that it wakes me up instantly.
I have to admit that Larry's solo on All Blues blows me away. Again,
it's not anything new, but he puts lots of emotion into it and
demonstrates some great chops. Much better than anything else I have
heard him do, of course IMNSHO.
John R>
John R>
JFR
In <19980205025...@ladder02.news.aol.com> aki...@aol.com
(AKingA) writes:
>
>>Subject: Re: Larry Carlton
>>From: tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu ()
>>Date: Sun, Feb 1, 1998 03:41 EST
>>Message-id: <6b1cfn$9...@news.jhu.edu>
>>
n...@emerald.cns.net.au
>>writes:
>>>At the great risk of being called a "party-pooper", it's well
known
>>>that the Larry's soloing in "Mulberry Street" was sped up. (ie:
Larry
>>>played and recorded it at a much slower pace and pitch and then
>>>raised it to match the backing in the mix). The give away for me is
>>>the somewhat squeaky guitar tone. Once this "party trick" is
>>>understood, it becomes pretty obvious. As I said, I hate to
>>>disillusion anyone. It's great playing anyway.
>>
>>I think you're correct about the record, but I've also heard him play
>>that tune live, and he doesn't need the studio tricks to burn on it.
>>The guy is a monster guitar player, and extremely original. He only
>>sounds cliche sometimes because ten thousand other guys have copped
>>his stuff and already bored you with it.
>>
Tal
>Farlow, John Abercrombie, Larry Coryell, John Scofield, and Larry
Carlton w/
>(John Patitucci on bass and Billy Hart on drums. Tunes include
Misty,
>Meditation, Autumn Leaves, My Romance and All Blues. The player solos
in turn
>on each tune. Through-out, Larry Coryell blazes through his solos,
chops
>galore. The rest, including Carlton are generally laid back. On the
final
>cut, all the players trade high speed solos with Carlton playing
last. It
>appeared that he wished to make a point with the manner in which he
cut lose
>with a furious stream of notes in a most articulate and masterful
technique.
>IMHO he totally humbled Mr. Coryell.
>
>
Well, my case is closed. Yes, that was the answer to a question I
posted, and I am very impressed with Carlton's solo on that one. That
is the only time I have heard him "cut loose". Wish he did that more.
John R>
JFR
In <6bdgj2$m...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> "Andy Bullington"
<ab...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>
>> It seems to me that other instrumentalists (sax, trumpet, etc...)
spend a
>> lot of time in their formative years developing "tone"; something
many
>> guitarists don't do.
>>
>> Who do I consider to have great tone or awareness of it?
>>
>> Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, Pat Metheny, Bill Frisell, John
Scofield...
>>
>> Even players like Marc Ducret, Nels Cline, Marc Ribot - who are
often
>> maligned by the jazz guitar traditionalists - have a "conception" of
>their
>> tone which gives them a distinct voice.
>>
>> I think that in 1998, jazz guitarists should not be plugging an L5
(or
>> some other arch top) into a Polytone and just playing. This was done
by
>> players like Montgomery, Jimmy Raney, and others in that generation
and
>> it's time to move on.
always
>wanted to hear the great blues tones of Albert King or Albert Collins
>used in a jazz context. Collins' sophisticated rhythmic placement of
>phrases and his odd note choices is a gold mine of possibilities.
>Scofield has explored some of this, most notably on Hand Jive which
>I like very much. Before that CD I found his tone to be too scratchy
>but I've since come to like it. I like a tone that makes you think and
>his cetainly does that. To the average person out there, TONE IS
>EVERYTHING! Imagine Coltrane or Miles or Charlie Christian with some
>squirelly little tone. I don't think so! Credit Carlton for bringing
great
>guitar tone out of the jazz closet.
> Cheers
> awb
Maybe I am not understaning what the definition of "tone" is exactly. I
think some over-obsess with it and maybe at the expense of the other
elements of music.
Sound quality is another thing that I think people get overly obsessive
about. I used to not enjoy Charlie Parker's older records because of
the sound quality. Now the music blows me away and makes me forget
about the quality.
John R>
JFR
In <6bena2$c...@news.wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
nospam_ro...@mainz.netsurf.de (Roland Kalus) writes:
>jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>
>
>>On a semi-related thought - does anyone have the "All Strings
Attached"
>>cd and/or video with Scofield, Abercrombie, Coryell, Tal Farlow and
>>the sequence of soloists on "All Blues"? That information could make
>>or break these thoughts I have about Carlton.
>
>UUPPS, if you are not able to hear who is playing what solo on this cd
>I realy suggest you better stop talking about those guitarists.
>
>Roland
>
>
>
>
>roland kalus**************phone: ++49(0)6131-509669
>http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~vms
>Home of the virtual music school for guitar, vox and
>piano. Free online lessons**************************
>
OK, so if someone is confused about something they do not have the
right to discuss it or ask a question about it? That is a real fair
and useful rule.
No, I can hear Abercrombie and Sco very clearly and definitively.
Farlow too, although I think he had a bad nite. I am confusing coryell
and carlton on the last tune. Forgive me please. BTW, Carlton blows
me away on that one.
John R>
JFR
In <6bf7o3$m...@nntpa.cb.lucent.com> "Roger D. Placer"
<rog...@lucent.com> writes:
>
>> >On a semi-related thought - does anyone have the "All Strings
Attached"
>> >cd and/or video with Scofield, Abercrombie, Coryell, Tal Farlow and
>> >Larry Carlton performing a concert in southern CA?
>
>on a post yesterday, I brought it to work and am listening to it right
>now. Let me say that my opinions have held up. This disc doesn't work
>for the same reasons that group sex probably doesn't either, despite
>the fantastic possibilities it may evoke.
>
>Poor Billy Hart and John Pattituci. They've got to support a groove
>that essentially has no legs! Four guitarists "comping" and trying
>to be original at the same time, while the other one shows off his
>Carlton are the only guys on this date who sound good. Farlow and
>really make an impression on me, but I can tell Farlow and Coryell
>two Johns play Ibanezes. (There's a picture of all of 'em on the
>cover) Unfortunately, on "Autumn Leaves" of all things there is
>a mini shred-fest led by (Abercrombie? Coryell?) that is just
>a tad inappropriate. Save your pennies on this CD. Anyone else
>have a different opinion? I'd really like to hear your reasons.
>
>Roger
It is rather disappointing for the most part, but has it's momements.
More than one guitarist comping at one time is one of the most obvious
mistakes that creates a lot of bad situations for the soloists. They
should have sat out a lot more. The G7 and G5 projects do a much
better job at making this type of gig effective.
John R>
JFR
In <6bemkc$c...@news.wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
nospam_ro...@mainz.netsurf.de (Roland Kalus) writes:
>
>>In article <6bcf94$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, JFR
<jre...@ix.netcom.co> wrote:
>>>
>>>First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to
me,
>>>so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me.
>
>
>think music in generell is'nt either your thing or what?!?
>
>>>I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
to
his
>>>solo records and all of his recordings as a sideman with the
Crusaders.
>>>I did transcribe some of his solos (not written out, but memorized)
in
>>>my formative years and they were pretty straight forward, even for
me
>>>at that point of ability.
>
>about you and I am very interested to hear you playing, so maybe you
>can give me some tips which of your records are best.
>
>
>
>So maybe you are to young or from another planet.
>
>Roland
>
>http://larrycarlton.home.page.de
>
>
>
>
>
>
>http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~vms
>Home of the virtual music school for guitar, vox and
>piano. Free online lessons**************************
>
I have never recorded anything. But, then again, I am not comparing
myself to Larry Carlton. I am just saying, as a listener, he does not
do a lot for me. The other guys - Martino, Sco, Stern - really make me
dig into what they are doing. Larry just is kinda "there" to my earsd.
The fact that he has recorded "so many" records and played on so many
others is not overly impressive to me either.
He's good, just not great in my opinion. But he seems to have a lot of
devoted fans, so that's good for him.
John R>
Michael L Kankiewic
Has anyone else noticed this? The head of Larry Carlton's "Strikes Twice"
(album titled same) is almost note-for-note a rip off of Johnny Smith's
"Jaguar"? Or am I missing some kind of copyright technicality? Even so,
why does LC claim credit for the composition?
Am I way off, or isn't this a big deal?
Michael
T.A. Vieira
JFR wrote:
> if thousands of guitar
> players have copied him (which is always a doubtful idea, meaning that
> he was truly the "first" at something), it proves that his style/tone
> is relatively simple and "copyable".
> John R>
Are you implying that simple and "copyable" = bad? Is it more important to
be hard to imitate or to be musical? I'm not saying that these other
players aren't musical, I love they're playing, but IMHO Larry Carlton
plays with such feel, taste and discretion that to focus on the "simple
and copyable" aspect of his playing is kind of missing the big picture.
Ted
JFR
In <6bdba5$r...@nntp02.primenet.com> ai...@lafn.org (Gil Ayan) writes:
>
>In article <6bcf94$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, JFR
<jre...@ix.netcom.co> wrote:
>>
>>First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to
me,
>>so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me.
>>I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
>>melodic, yes, anything really new or very creative, no. Direct me to
>>some specific recorded examples and I will revisit. I have all of
his
>>solo records and all of his recordings as a sideman with the
Crusaders.
>>I did transcribe some of his solos (not written out, but memorized)
in
>>my formative years and they were pretty straight forward, even for me
>>at that point of ability.
>
sound
>together in the 70s - he sounded pretty much like Wes before that- was
there
>anybody playing with a rock and roll sound, but using bebop lines? I
don't
>think so, so if that is not new or creative to you, okay, but it
changed
>the whole approach to electric guitar, here in L.A. without a doubt.
>
>
knock out solo
>on Steely Dan's "Peg." Go check out his site, which you can find at:
>
>http://www.umu.se/personal/KEO/graytxt.htx
>
>It has all kinds of information on his recordings, as well as links to
places
>where you can get them.
>
>In addition to being a great guitarist, Jay has co-written some of the
most popular
>songs of the 80s, including "Turn Your Love Around," "Mornin'," "After
the Love Is Gone,"
>etc. His produced everyone from All Jarreau to The Manhattan
Transfer, and has picked
>up a couple of Grammy's along the path of his musical career. Last
but not least, he's
>a personal friend and very nice guy.
>
>
>
>--
> ______ __ __ ______ __ __
> / __ / / /_/ / / __ / / \/ / Gil Ayan, Los Angeles, CA
> / /_/ / \__ / / /_/ / / / / / Email: ai...@lafn.org
> /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/\__/ http://home.earthlink.net/~ayan
>
Are any of Jay's records focussed on a jazz orientation?
Thanks.
John R>
Clay M Moore
T.A. Vieira wrote:
Having transcribed a lot of stuff over the years my opinion is that Larry is
not a simple player by any means. One of his strong points is his ability to
take somewhat unusual changes and create beautiful, melodic solos through
them, which is one of the most difficult improvisational tasks there is. I use
as an example the solo in Kid Charlemagne. Most "rock" guitarists would have
completely fallen apart trying to deal with the changes in that tune, whereas
a typical "jazz" player would probably have played a lot more notes, outlining
the changes but missing the idea that it is a pop tune. Larry's solo is as
close to perfect as I've heard, building with simple motives to a very natural
and soulful finish. Easy to copy? Perhaps. Easy to do? Nope.
--
Clay Moore
Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these.-- Ovid (43
B.C.-A.D. 18)
Roland Kalus
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>OK, so if someone is confused about something they do not have the
>right to discuss it or ask a question about it? That is a real fair
>and useful rule.
Sorry for having been so rude - maybe I had a bad day or my strings
were dirty :-) !
>No, I can hear Abercrombie and Sco very clearly and definitively.
>Farlow too, although I think he had a bad nite. I am confusing coryell
>and carlton on the last tune. Forgive me please. BTW, Carlton blows
>me away on that one.
Funny - this is one of the few recordings Larry did I do not find
soooo good. Btw: Carlton is a big admirer of Sco.For me they also have
a few harmonic concepts in common (e.g. the use of diminished triads
and shapes), so that LC's playing onf "Last Nite" even reminds me a
bit on Sco. Of course not to much! There phrasing is too different.
Stay tuned
Roland
roland kalus**************phone: ++49(0)6131-509669
http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~vms
Home of the virtual music school for guitar, vox and
piano. Free online lessons**************************
Roger D. Placer
> ...Kid Charlemagne. Most "rock" guitarists would have
> completely fallen apart trying to deal with the changes in that tune, whereas
> a typical "jazz" player would probably have played a lot more notes, outlining
> the changes but missing the idea that it is a pop tune.
This is a perfect description of why Larry is great. This is also just
about exactly what I aspire to play like; simple, melodic, motivic
improvisation through any changes. WAY easier said than done. I have a
lot more difficulty playing through many Steely Dan tunes than many
common jazz charts. It ain't the number of notes, it's the phrasing
and the direction in which you take your melodic journey. Make it sound
GOOD, not complex.
Roger
JFR
In <6begia$7...@news.jhu.edu> tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () writes:
>
>>In article <6bcf94$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>wrote:
>>
>>> First, let me say, that tone is not a relatively important thing to
me,
>>> so the fact Carlton was a "tone master" doesn't fascinate me.
Second,
>>> I have never heard anything ingenious in his playing. Good, solid,
>>> melodic, yes, anything really new or very creative, no. Direct me
to
>>> some specific recorded examples and I will revisit.
>
album.
>Really new? I don't know, although I can't think of anyone else who
plays
>anything close to that, except maybe Robben Ford on occasion. Creative
>and beautiful, without a doubt.
>
>
That's a nice solo. Does it blow me away and make me want to join his
fan club and put down people that don't like him - no. Again, a good
guitar player, that to me is not special, but hey if you dig him that's
cool.
John R>
JFR
In <34dc9b8...@news.wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
roland...@mainz.netsurf.de (Roland Kalus) writes:
>
>On 6 Feb 1998 10:47:00 -0700, ai...@lafn.org (Gil Ayan) wrote:
>
>>
>>Yo Roland, you are a kind person, no need to change that, right? The
fact that
>>this other guy may or may not have any CDs out has nothing to do with
his right
>>to have an opinion. I know you're a big fan of Larry's, but other
people may not
than that.
>>
>Hi Gil,
>
>sorry - you are right. Sometimes I am just a little upset by people
>arguing about other (mostly successful) musicians.. and if I hear
>someone saying that "tone" is not important or plays no role I can't
>resist to reply in such a way.
>
>Cheers
>
>Roland
>:-)
>
>
Roland,
Sorry to not like dig carlton a lot. I never said that tone plays "no
role", just that it is less important TO ME (i.e. IMHO) than harmony,
phrasing, rhythm, etc.
John R>
Mezoro
"They" tell me that Mr. Smith noticed it too.
Allegedly same melody, same key, same tempo.
Of course, these are just allegations by unknown critics, who have refused to
be used as sources.
You be the judge.
Mezoro
kol...@lmb.uni-muenchen.de
I use
> as an example the solo in Kid Charlemagne. Most "rock" guitarists would have
> completely fallen apart trying to deal with the changes in that tune, whereas
> a typical "jazz" player would probably have played a lot more notes, outlining
> close to perfect as I've heard, building with simple motives to a very natural
> and soulful finish. Easy to copy? Perhaps. Easy to do? Nope.
>
> --
> Clay Moore
This is very nicely said. The notion stresses more the general quality of
Larry's musicianship, apart from the mere guitaristic aspects (although I
think he is very good in that department, too).
This guy comes up with great melodies! I could imagine that it does not
matter that much for him, whether the changes are complicated etc.. Maybe
these melodies or melodic fragments immediately start "playing in his
mind" when he is confronted with the harmonies.
I may be wrong but this appears to be a rare ability. Lennon and
McCartney, for exapmle, will most likely not be remembered as stunning
intrumentalists, but they for sure were able to write outstanding
melodies.
Waldemar Kolanus
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <34E13392...@ix.netcom.com> TVi...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>JFR wrote:
>
>> if thousands of guitar
>> players have copied him (which is always a doubtful idea, meaning that
>> he was truly the "first" at something), it proves that his style/tone
>> is relatively simple and "copyable".
>
>be hard to imitate or to be musical? I'm not saying that these other
>players aren't musical, I love they're playing, but IMHO Larry Carlton
>plays with such feel, taste and discretion that to focus on the "simple
>and copyable" aspect of his playing is kind of missing the big picture.
Good points. Compare Django and Monk with CC and Bud Powell.
Christian and Powell have countless clones, while Django
and Monk have inspired many players but few clones. But they
are all great, historically important, and obviously innovative
players. Copyability is mostly irrelevant to an aesthetic
evaluation, I think.
JFR
In <34E13392...@ix.netcom.com> "T.A. Vieira"
<TVi...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>
>
>JFR wrote:
>
>> if thousands of guitar
>> players have copied him (which is always a doubtful idea, meaning
that
>> he was truly the "first" at something), it proves that his
style/tone
>> is relatively simple and "copyable".
>
>Are you implying that simple and "copyable" = bad? Is it more
important to
>be hard to imitate or to be musical? I'm not saying that these other
>players aren't musical, I love they're playing, but IMHO Larry Carlton
>plays with such feel, taste and discretion that to focus on the
"simple
>and copyable" aspect of his playing is kind of missing the big
picture.
>
>
No, I didn't mean it as equating to "bad". I meant it equating to
indescript and uninteresting to my ears. Larry has obvious good
musicianship, playing, nice stuff, etc, but nothing that has ever blown
me away. And the argument that he was "the first" to do something,
doesn't make me real excited either.
The big picture is how he makes me feel (my big picture, I guess).
Larry is good, but doesn't move me in the way that other players do.
To each their own ears.
John R>
JFR
In <34E1BBB6...@ibm.net> Clay M Moore <cmm...@ibm.net> writes:
>
>
>T.A. Vieira wrote:
>
>> JFR wrote:
>>
>> > if thousands of guitar
>> > players have copied him (which is always a doubtful idea, meaning
that
>> > he was truly the "first" at something), it proves that his
style/tone
>> > is relatively simple and "copyable".
>> > John R>
>>
>> Are you implying that simple and "copyable" = bad? Is it more
important to
>> be hard to imitate or to be musical? I'm not saying that these other
>> players aren't musical, I love they're playing, but IMHO Larry
Carlton
>> plays with such feel, taste and discretion that to focus on the
"simple
>> and copyable" aspect of his playing is kind of missing the big
picture.
>
Larry is
>not a simple player by any means. One of his strong points is his
ability to
>take somewhat unusual changes and create beautiful, melodic solos
through
>them, which is one of the most difficult improvisational tasks there
>as an example the solo in Kid Charlemagne. Most "rock" guitarists
would have
>completely fallen apart trying to deal with the changes in that tune,
whereas
>a typical "jazz" player would probably have played a lot more notes,
outlining
>the changes but missing the idea that it is a pop tune. Larry's solo
is as
>close to perfect as I've heard, building with simple motives to a very
natural
>and soulful finish. Easy to copy? Perhaps. Easy to do? Nope.
>
>--
>Clay Moore
>
(43
>B.C.-A.D. 18)
>
>
Well, I will go back and check that one out sometime. I am sure that
most of my personal heros could pull that off too, but you are right
that simple melody does not equate to simple harmony in an example like
this. And that is an art. However, there is also the strong
possibility that his solo on this tune could have been "composed" and
maybe even written out in advance, since this was a high profile, and
probably well rehearsed session....... So there...... ;^)
The reality of a lot of the problem I have with appreciating Carlton,
is that this example is more the exception than the rule. Most of his
output has been relatively simple tunes/harmonies in the pop vein, and
his playing "nice" but nothing overly compelling to my ears.
John R>
ivy thomas
> This is a perfect description of why Larry is great. This is also just
> about exactly what I aspire to play like; simple, melodic, motivic
> improvisation through any changes. WAY easier said than done.
I've got to chime in a hearty 'hear hear' on this too. I'm a real sucker
for a flowing solo over some gnarly changes, ala "Charlemagne." Have you
heard Robben Ford's solos on "Monmouth College," or "Sun Lake"? I have
yet to hear a better solo over a harder rock/jazz tune than Monmouth, and
it's a live performance too. Man, oh man, I wish Robben was still playing
stuff like that!
Regards, Ivy
JFR
In <6bt03q$c...@nntpa.cb.lucent.com> "Roger D. Placer"
<rog...@lucent.com> writes:
>
>> ...Kid Charlemagne. Most "rock" guitarists would have
>> completely fallen apart trying to deal with the changes in that
tune, whereas
>> a typical "jazz" player would probably have played a lot more notes,
outlining
>> the changes but missing the idea that it is a pop tune.
>
>about exactly what I aspire to play like; simple, melodic, motivic
>lot more difficulty playing through many Steely Dan tunes than many
>common jazz charts. It ain't the number of notes, it's the phrasing
>and the direction in which you take your melodic journey. Make it
sound
>GOOD, not complex.
>
>Roger
Again, I will have to revisit this one. Just another possibility
(besides the solo being spontaneous or preconceived): could this
fantastic solo be dubbed? Again, I am suspicious of high profile
studio dates and the chances of live improv being pure/untampered in
these cases.
I think the last post by Roland indicates some of the reason I may not
dig Larry a lot. The one solo of his that was considered "not
characteristic" of him, I enjoyed. So, it may be nothing more than
"different strums for different bums".
John R>
JFR
In <kolanus-1202...@141.84.49.38> kol...@lmb.uni-muenchen.de
writes:
>
> I use
>> as an example the solo in Kid Charlemagne. Most "rock" guitarists
would have
>> completely fallen apart trying to deal with the changes in that
tune, whereas
>> a typical "jazz" player would probably have played a lot more notes,
outlining
is as
>> close to perfect as I've heard, building with simple motives to a
very natural
>> and soulful finish. Easy to copy? Perhaps. Easy to do? Nope.
>>
>> --
>> Clay Moore
>
of
>Larry's musicianship, apart from the mere guitaristic aspects
(although I
>think he is very good in that department, too).
>This guy comes up with great melodies! I could imagine that it does
not
>matter that much for him, whether the changes are complicated etc..
Maybe
>these melodies or melodic fragments immediately start "playing in his
>mind" when he is confronted with the harmonies.
>I may be wrong but this appears to be a rare ability. Lennon and
>McCartney, for exapmle, will most likely not be remembered as stunning
>intrumentalists, but they for sure were able to write outstanding
>melodies.
>
>Waldemar Kolanus
To me, Wes, was one of the most melodic players ever. Even compared to
horn players (that I think can "sing" easier through their instrument
than we can on guitar) and other instrumentalists in jazz. Maybe Wes'
melodicism had something to do with not learning jazz in the standard
way, but instead copping it all by ear?
John R>
Clay M Moore
JFR wrote:
> To me, Wes, was one of the most melodic players ever. Even compared to
> horn players (that I think can "sing" easier through their instrument
> than we can on guitar) and other instrumentalists in jazz. Maybe Wes'
> melodicism had something to do with not learning jazz in the standard
> way, but instead copping it all by ear?
Agreed, Wes was one of the most melodic. Even Jerry Coker, who tends to be
a bit horn-centric admits that Wes was among the most melodic improvisors.
I'm not sure which "standard way" you are refering to though, because I'm
under the impression most players learned primarily by ear in that era.
Jonathan Byrd
Clay M Moore wrote:
>
> JFR wrote:
>
> > To me, Wes, was one of the most melodic players ever.
>
The other day I was trying to explain to somebody what I think makes Wes
so great. Wes is nicely melodic, but the more I thought about it, his
use of melody was not a significant departure from what others had
done. I think even more highly of Wes's use of rhythmic figures, though
again, he was not strikingly novel in his use of rhythm. The octaves
and chord solos he is known for were by no means new at the time he was
doing them.
I ended up concluding that Wes's greatness really can't be explained in
terms of skills he possessed that others did not. His greatness was in
the intangibles: He had a way of building tension and providing release,
without resorting to bombast or cliche. I think that more than anyone
else, Wes blended all the elements of music -- melody, harmony, rhythm,
and dynamics -- in a wholly integrated way.
--
Jonathan Byrd Computing and Communications
j...@isu.edu Idaho State University
(208)-236-3199 Pocatello, Idaho, USA
http://www.isu.edu/~jon/ FAX: (208)-236-3673
Clay M Moore
Jonathan Byrd wrote:
> I ended up concluding that Wes's greatness really can't be explained in
> terms of skills he possessed that others did not. His greatness was in
> the intangibles: He had a way of building tension and providing release,
> without resorting to bombast or cliche. I think that more than anyone
> else, Wes blended all the elements of music -- melody, harmony, rhythm,
> and dynamics -- in a wholly integrated way.
That is the gist of it I think, a complete musician. You forgot tone,
though.
Joseph A Bonito
ivy thomas <i...@teleport.com> wrote:
: > This is a perfect description of why Larry is great. This is also just
: > about exactly what I aspire to play like; simple, melodic, motivic
: > improvisation through any changes. WAY easier said than done.
: I've got to chime in a hearty 'hear hear' on this too. I'm a real sucker
: for a flowing solo over some gnarly changes, ala "Charlemagne." Have you
: heard Robben Ford's solos on "Monmouth College," or "Sun Lake"? I have
: yet to hear a better solo over a harder rock/jazz tune than Monmouth, and
: it's a live performance too. Man, oh man, I wish Robben was still playing
: stuff like that!
: Regards, Ivy
My favorites are "The Imperial Strut" and the fourth song (the name escapes me) from the first Yellowjackets disc. I've heard Robben play convincingly in a
"straigh ahead" setting too. Easily my favorite player.
Joe
Roland Kalus
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>To me, Wes, was one of the most melodic players ever. Even compared to
>horn players (that I think can "sing" easier through their instrument
>than we can on guitar) and other instrumentalists in jazz. Maybe Wes'
>melodicism had something to do with not learning jazz in the standard
>way, but instead copping it all by ear?
>John R>
You are totally right! For me his playing was even more than singable,
fluid, hornlike and melodic... I don't know the right words to
express.. I just can feel his melodies... maybe it something above
mear musical understanding....
Roland Kalus
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>To me, Wes, was one of the most melodic players ever. Even compared to
>horn players (that I think can "sing" easier through their instrument
>than we can on guitar) and other instrumentalists in jazz. Maybe Wes'
>melodicism had something to do with not learning jazz in the standard
>way, but instead copping it all by ear?
Just missed that in my last posting:
BTW:.... I exactly feel what you say when I listen to
L. Carlton playing "Emotions wound us so".....
I am sure you know this tune.. It was the second time that
guitarmusic (or better music in generell) touched me as emotional as
Wes did it with e.g. his late 50th stuff.
ivy thomas
Joseph A Bonito wrote:
> My favorites are "The Imperial Strut" and the fourth song (the name escapes me) from the first Yellowjackets disc. I've heard Robben play convincingly in a
> "straigh ahead" setting too. Easily my favorite player.
Yeah, that's a great showcase recording for Robben...
but I'm tellin' ya, you you gotta get the "Casino Lights"
CD for "Monmouth." The live version of "Tee Time for Eric"
is equally killer... I've never heard him play better
than on these two tracks, and BTW the non-robben stuff on
this cd is very good too. Ivy
n...@emerald.cns.net.au
And don't overlook the 1989 Joe Diorio/Robben Ford "Minor Elegance"
with Peter Erskine and Gary Willis. It's a killer. It's released
by MGI Records of West Germany and recorded live. Tracks are "Swank
Thing" (with great blowing from Ford with a very humourous "quote" in
his solo), AM, PM, E-minor Ballad (imaginative. eh?), Unis, Blues for
All Space Cadets (??!!), Soul Eyes and So What. I got mine through
Audiophile Imports in Baltimore a few years back. They have a web
page and probably stacks more rare stuff. I remember it wasn't cheap.
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:36:05 -0800, ivy thomas <i...@teleport.com>
wrote:
ivy thomas
n...@emerald.cns.net.au wrote:
>
> And don't overlook the 1989 Joe Diorio/Robben Ford "Minor Elegance"
> with Peter Erskine and Gary Willis. It's a killer.
This one has been on my 'look out for...' list!
> I remember it wasn't cheap
yup! that's why I don't have it, however if I hear a few more
reviews like yours, I may have to bite the bullet!
ivy
---ja...@acy.digex.net
In article <34ECB740...@teleport.com>, ivy thomas <i...@teleport.com>
wrote:
> n...@emerald.cns.net.au wrote:
> >
> > And don't overlook the 1989 Joe Diorio/Robben Ford "Minor Elegance"
> > with Peter Erskine and Gary Willis. It's a killer.
>
> This one has been on my 'look out for...' list!
>
> > I remember it wasn't cheap
This disc was released domestically at one point. I've seen it at various
Tower stores. (Philly, NYC)
It is a great disc.
Jack
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <34E9D98F...@isu.edu> Jonathan Byrd <j...@isu.edu> writes:
>so great. Wes is nicely melodic, but the more I thought about it, his
>use of melody was not a significant departure from what others had
>done. I think even more highly of Wes's use of rhythmic figures, though
>again, he was not strikingly novel in his use of rhythm. The octaves
>and chord solos he is known for were by no means new at the time he was
>doing them.
I think that Wes's idiosyncratic rhythmic phrasing stems in part
from the difficulty of playing long, unbroken legato lines
when you're thumb-picking and don't have access to backstrokes.
Plus, he only used three fingers on his left hand for single-
note lines, and that also tends to break up your flow.
Sometimes I like to play Wes's record on Cottontail with the
balance on my stereo turned all the way to one side, which
drops out the bass and piano. You just hear guitar and percussion,
and you can really get into how Wes phrased at rapid tempos.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <34EB9A95...@teleport.com> ivy thomas <i...@teleport.com> writes:
>Yeah, that's a great showcase recording for Robben...
>but I'm tellin' ya, you you gotta get the "Casino Lights"
>CD for "Monmouth." The live version of "Tee Time for Eric"
>is equally killer... I've never heard him play better
>than on these two tracks, and BTW the non-robben stuff on
>this cd is very good too. Ivy
I haven't listened to this one for 15 years or so, since it first
came out. But I still remember those solos as being monster LA-style
fusionoid jammers. I also remember Robben's solo on "Imagine" behind
the chick singer whose name I have no idea on, which is equally great.
I always felt sorry for Buzz Feiten, who's a decent player but
sounds like a scrubber having to follow Robben Ford working at
his peak of inspiration.
TomLippinc
>
>I haven't listened to this one for 15 years or so, since it first
>came out. But I still remember those solos as being monster LA-style
>fusionoid jammers. I also remember Robben's solo on "Imagine" behind
>the chick singer whose name I have no idea on, which is equally great.
>
>
that would be Randi Crawford
Tom Lippincott
wreeve
Just picked up The Real Howard Roberts.
Listen to his playing on Gone With The Wind, thats melodic!!
Anyone know if his other CD's are good?
Guess thats a stupid question, were talkin Howard Roberts here.
I remember hearing he wrote instuctions books when I was 12.
So so sad now at 40 I buy his first record.
Oh well,
Bill
Clay M Moore
wreeve wrote:
His books are great but mostly out of print, unfortunately. So are the
records, although Guitarchives is supposed to be re-releasing them. I
attended a 3 day seminar of his in 1975, and it was one of the most
intense musical experiences I have had. He was knowledgeable on so many
subjects, and simply a monster guitar player.
Joseph A Bonito
: > My favorites are "The Imperial Strut" and the fourth song (the name escapes me) from the first Yellowjackets disc. I've heard Robben play convincingly in a
: > "straigh ahead" setting too. Easily my favorite player.
: Yeah, that's a great showcase recording for Robben...
: but I'm tellin' ya, you you gotta get the "Casino Lights"
: CD for "Monmouth." The live version of "Tee Time for Eric"
: is equally killer... I've never heard him play better
: than on these two tracks, and BTW the non-robben stuff on
: this cd is very good too. Ivy
Do you know if Robben's "The Inside Story" is available on disc? That's got the original version of "Tee Time...". A fine disc, much different from his current stuff, which I do like.
Joe
James West
In article <34EE18...@L3C.com>, wre...@L3C.com wrote:
> Just picked up The Real Howard Roberts.
> Listen to his playing on Gone With The Wind, thats melodic!!
> Anyone know if his other CD's are good?
> Guess thats a stupid question, were talkin Howard Roberts here.
> I remember hearing he wrote instuctions books when I was 12.
>
The Real Howard Roberts was the first LP of his I ever bought, and one of
my first jazz guitar LP's. It is indeed a nice piece of work, and Ross
Tompkins' piano playing is just as fantastic (Ross was Doc's pianist in
Carson's Tonight Show band). Howard's interpretation of Serenata is also
outstanding (for contrast, check out Cannonball's version - he swings it
hard.)
I subsequently bought a lot of Howard's earlier stuff from the 60's, which
is kind of pop-ish. Nice playing, but nothing as straight-ahead as "The
Real..."
Jamie Tatro
--
"Like my friend Timon says, you gotta put your behind in your past."
Pumbaa, Warthog extraordinaire
ivy thomas
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
> I haven't listened to this one for 15 years or so, since it first
> came out. But I still remember those solos as being monster LA-style
> fusionoid jammers. I also remember Robben's solo on "Imagine" behind
> the chick singer whose name I have no idea on, which is equally great.
Yes, good work on that one too. Really a good CD all in all. That singer
is Randy Crawford.
> I always felt sorry for Buzz Feiten, who's a decent player but
> sounds like a scrubber having to follow Robben Ford working at
> his peak of inspiration.
There's *always* someone way better, and to follow them on stage... must
be another variation of Murphy's Law.
ivy
---ja...@acy.digex.net
In article <6ckfat$gai$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>, Joseph A Bonito
<jbo...@u.arizona.edu> wrote:
"The Inside Story" is available from Audiophile Imports as a Japanese
import. They have a website at:
http://cyboard.com/audiophile.html
Jack
ti...@inetworld.net
In article <jmtdrt-2102...@pm25-3-79.cae.infi.net>,
jmt...@cyberstate.infi.net (James West) wrote:
>
> In article <34EE18...@L3C.com>, wre...@L3C.com wrote:
>
> > Just picked up The Real Howard Roberts.
> > Listen to his playing on Gone With The Wind, thats melodic!!
> > Anyone know if his other CD's are good?
> > Guess thats a stupid question, were talkin Howard Roberts here.
> > I remember hearing he wrote instuctions books when I was 12.
> >
>
> The Real Howard Roberts was the first LP of his I ever bought, and one of
> my first jazz guitar LP's. It is indeed a nice piece of work, and Ross
> Tompkins' piano playing is just as fantastic (Ross was Doc's pianist in
> Carson's Tonight Show band). Howard's interpretation of Serenata is also
> outstanding (for contrast, check out Cannonball's version - he swings it
> hard.)
>
> I subsequently bought a lot of Howard's earlier stuff from the 60's, which
> is kind of pop-ish. Nice playing, but nothing as straight-ahead as "The
> Real..."
>
> Jamie Tatro
>
Guitar" or "Good Pickins", both issued in the late 50's on Verve. "The Movin
Man" is a later Verve compilation LP of the two. To my ears these recordings
are are simply outstanding and required listening for jazz guitar buffs. I'm
looking forward to the sides being reissued on CD since I sold my LP
collection quite a few years ago.
Two of Howard Robert's 60's Capitol LP's were recently made available on CD:
"Dirty and Funky" (Combined "Howard Roberts is a Dirty Guitar Player" and
"Color Him Funky."
When It was first issued (in late 70's, I think), "The Real Howard Roberts" on
Concord label,was a refreshing change from the years of mediocre or completely
horrid (e.g.,"Antelope Valley Freeway") LPs he made on Capitol. I saw him
live in LA at Dontes in 1982 or 1983 with great expectations and felt somewhat
disappointed since I recall not connecting very well with where he was
musically then, except for a few tunes. Martin.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Stephen G. Carl
wreeve wrote:
>
> Just picked up The Real Howard Roberts.
> Listen to his playing on Gone With The Wind, thats melodic!!
> Anyone know if his other CD's are good?
> Guess thats a stupid question, were talkin Howard Roberts here.
> I remember hearing he wrote instuctions books when I was 12.
> Oh well,
> Bill
I just picked up the new reissue of "Howard Roberts is a Dirty
Guitar Player" and "Color Him Funky" on Guitarchives. I *highly*
recommend these CDs, his playing is absolutely amazing. I also
highly recommend "The Magic Band Live at Donte's".
He also used to tour the country giving seminars. I attended two,
and they provided the foundation for my approach to playing the
guitar from that point on. He also founded GIT, which has since
grown into Musician's Institute out in LA.
Steve
Dekki
>
>
> I haven't listened to this one for 15 years or so, since it first
> came out. But I still remember those solos as being monster LA-style
> fusionoid jammers. I also remember Robben's solo on "Imagine" behind
> the chick singer whose name I have no idea on, which is equally great.
>
RANDY CRAWFORD
Record is still availbale - bought it last summer. its WB 7599-23718-2
Dekki
Clay M Moore
n...@emerald.cns.net.au wrote:
> I was tempted to mention the "Antelope Freeway" saga but I wasn't
> game in case I offended someone. I kinda recall there being a
> "sister" LP of the same nature. Very, very strange. I haven't been
> able to come near a HR album since. Given the reverence afforded his
> other material, I'll have to block out the Antelope Freeway period
> neuron damage and acquire some decent HR. Anyone out there have any
> ideas on what the Capitol period was all about? Was it a cynical
> move to get out of a bad record deal? I haven't heard or seen the
> Antelope Freeway LP for some 15 years and I wonder if I missed
> something that the "older and wiser me" might now pick up on.
The other recording you are probably thinking of is "Equinox Express Elevator." My
guess, and this is just a guess, based on some things he said in interviews, is
that HR was bored with playing the regular vanilla guitar stuff, amazing as that
was to our ears. He said that he was very into Hendrix and other psychedelic music,
because it broke the confines of traditional jazz improvisation, and that he used
to go to see those people in concert. I think those albums were his attempt to keep
up with the times, as misguided as it may have been. I used to have a John Klemmer
album that he was on from the early 1970s that was kind of like early Return to
Forever (the Brazilian period) and HR's playing was beautiful.
James West
> n...@emerald.cns.net.au wrote:
>
> > I was tempted to mention the "Antelope Freeway" saga but I wasn't
> > game in case I offended someone. I kinda recall there being a
> > "sister" LP of the same nature. Very, very strange. I haven't been
> > able to come near a HR album since. Given the reverence afforded his
> > other material, I'll have to block out the Antelope Freeway period
> > neuron damage and acquire some decent HR.
My
> guess, and this is just a guess, based on some things he said in
interviews, is
> that HR was bored with playing the regular vanilla guitar stuff, amazing
as that
> was to our ears. He said that he was very into Hendrix and other
psychedelic music,
> because it broke the confines of traditional jazz improvisation, and
that he used
> to go to see those people in concert. I think those albums were his
attempt to keep
> up with the times, as misguided as it may have been.
Not flame-bait, but hear my gripe...
I've never been able to figure out what goes on in the minds of some of
these guys (straight-ahead guitarists). Seems like so many great,
straight-ahead jazz guitarists have these momentary lapses of sanity where
they (you figure it out):
1. Try to cross-over to establish some commercial appeal, or
2. Don't really "get" the cross-over genre, but play the music anyway, or
3. Simply suffer brain damage from too many drugs
For example, several Joe Pass LP's from the 60's (playing 12 string
guitar, the LP with go-go girls on the cover), some Joe Diorio tunes on a
few of his LP's, Larry Coryell (just about everything he's done sounds
like residual LSD kicking up in his cortex - ironic that he now has "hits"
on the "smooth jazz" radio format around the country), and several others
that escape me for the moment.
Now, I'm not talking about Wes and George Benson commercial stuff which,
even at its worst, is still listenable on some level. And there have been
other mainstream jazz guits to cross-over into fusion successfully - like
Pat Martino's Joyous Lake (although it's the same double-time riffs he's
always played over standards, with more volume and rhythmic complexity
behind him).
In fact, straight-ahead jazz guits are not the only culprits. I remember
being so knocked out by Elliott Randall's guitar solo on Steely Dan's
Reeling in the Years that I died when he finally released a solo LP years
later. It was some type of New York disco-dance music. Ugghh <ears
bleeding>.
What I find so "offensive" about this stuff is that it's so transparent -
like "hipness" in the mind of the beholder. Like they're trying to say,
"I'm pissed off that these talentless rockers are making so much money,
and I'm not. Look, I can play that rock shit," and then they play some
three chord rock tune on an L5.
Go figure. I wish I had a nickel for every shitty jazz guitar LP I've
bought because I loved the artist, and their previous work, and found
their recent stuff to be crap. (This, of course, was when everything was
on vinyl.)
n...@emerald.cns.net.au
I was tempted to mention the "Antelope Freeway" saga but I wasn't
game in case I offended someone. I kinda recall there being a
"sister" LP of the same nature. Very, very strange. I haven't been
able to come near a HR album since. Given the reverence afforded his
other material, I'll have to block out the Antelope Freeway period
neuron damage and acquire some decent HR. Anyone out there have any
ideas on what the Capitol period was all about? Was it a cynical
move to get out of a bad record deal? I haven't heard or seen the
Antelope Freeway LP for some 15 years and I wonder if I missed
something that the "older and wiser me" might now pick up on.
Kendalberg
>I was tempted to mention the "Antelope Freeway" saga but I wasn't
>game in case I offended someone. I kinda recall there being a
>"sister" LP of the same nature.
Try to avoid "Equinox Express Elevator" then...
Rick Stone
The things that you're griping about here may actually have very little
to do with the "wishes" of the players. I think you might want to
consider redirecting your anger at the record companies and producers
who often "shoehorn" these artists into projects that they might not
themselves be too particularly proud of. If you want a little insight
into how this shit happens, read Bill Milkowski's rather
self-aggrandizing article about his role in producing last Blue Note
release (JazzTimes, August 1997).
<snip>
--
/=====================================================\
| Rick Stone | Visit my "Jazz Guitar Homepage"|
| jaz...@inch.com | Lots of links to other guitar |
| | and music related sites! |
| 718/972-1220 | http://www.inch.com/~jazzand |
\=====================================================/
Jimmy Bruno
I've found myself tempted to do the very same thing. Sometimes record
companies think that they can widen your audience by trying a cross-over cd.
Most fail to hit the mark.
Rick Stone wrote in message <34F05E...@inch.com>...
ivy thomas
> In article <34EE18...@L3C.com>, wre...@L3C.com wrote:
> Just picked up The Real Howard Roberts.
> Listen to his playing on Gone With The Wind, thats melodic!!
> Anyone know if his other CD's are good?
I like this recording a hell of a lot too. Pick up "The Velvet
Groove" if you see it. His playing on "Indian Summer" is
fabulous--the whole record it great as best as I recall. This
recording is pretty orchestral, but *not* cheesy in the slightest.
Wish I had a turntable, I'd put it on right now!
Ivy
ivy thomas
Joseph A Bonito wrote:
> That's got the original version of "Tee Time...".
The live version smokes the "Inside Story" version IMO.
Ivy
JFR
In <34E9D98F...@isu.edu> Jonathan Byrd <j...@isu.edu> writes:
>
>Clay M Moore wrote:
>>
>> JFR wrote:
>>
>> > To me, Wes, was one of the most melodic players ever.
>>
>> Agreed, Wes was one of the most melodic.
>
>The other day I was trying to explain to somebody what I think makes
Wes
>so great. Wes is nicely melodic, but the more I thought about it, his
>use of melody was not a significant departure from what others had
>done. I think even more highly of Wes's use of rhythmic figures,
though
>again, he was not strikingly novel in his use of rhythm. The octaves
>and chord solos he is known for were by no means new at the time he
was
>doing them.
>
in
>terms of skills he possessed that others did not. His greatness was
in
>the intangibles: He had a way of building tension and providing
release,
>without resorting to bombast or cliche. I think that more than anyone
>else, Wes blended all the elements of music -- melody, harmony,
rhythm,
>and dynamics -- in a wholly integrated way.
>
>--
>Jonathan Byrd Computing and
Communications
>j...@isu.edu Idaho State
University
>(208)-236-3199 Pocatello, Idaho,
USA
>http://www.isu.edu/~jon/ FAX:
(208)-236-3673
I think one of the intangibles was Wes' swingin' rhythmic thing. He
grew up when jazz was popular music and was immersed in swinging
rhythmic figures all the time. Unlike Whitfield and the younger guys
today where you have to go back and "study" jazz and the swing element
after being immersed in rock and pop all the time. Today it is sort of
backwards learning, and you can hear the difference when Wes plays
compared to his derivatives even if they are playing his notes or solo
exactly.
John R>
Tom Jaffe
JFR wrote:
>
> I think one of the intangibles was Wes' swingin' rhythmic thing. He
> grew up when jazz was popular music and was immersed in swinging
> rhythmic figures all the time. Unlike Whitfield and the younger guys
> today where you have to go back and "study" jazz and the swing element
> after being immersed in rock and pop all the time. Today it is sort of
> backwards learning, and you can hear the difference when Wes plays
> compared to his derivatives even if they are playing his notes or solo
> exactly.
>
> John R>
Another "intangible" is the feeling of spontaneity in his solos.
He was one of those all-time great improvisors that you could listen
to night after night live because new things would be happening. Great
improvisations still sound exciting to me regardless of how many years it
has been since they were recorded. There is that "seat of the pants
going for it" feeling. Even though he relied on various concepts and
licks over and over, he still made them sound improvised because he seemed
to grab them spontaniously. There is also a human quality to his sound
(warm, soulful, sensitive, and sometimes funky and humorous) that gives me the
feeling he is talking or singing to me. George Benson is the only other player
who gives me that feeling. Wes sounds like he is having a ball. When watching
him on video he seems to be as much a third party listener as a player.
He would laugh sometimes while soloing as if he were reacting to something
someone else played....but it was him! What a genius.
I feel that if we focused more on moving people emotionally with our
playing (as opposed to running chord scales, etc), we would all be better
off as musicians. Long live the spirit Wes Montgomery.
Rick Stone
JFR wrote:
>I think one of the intangibles was Wes' swingin' rhythmic thing. He
>grew up when jazz was popular music and was immersed in swinging
>rhythmic figures all the time. Unlike Whitfield and the younger guys
>today where you have to go back and "study" jazz and the swing element
>after being immersed in rock and pop all the time. Today it is sort of
>backwards learning, and you can hear the difference when Wes plays
>compared to his derivatives even if they are playing his notes or solo
>exactly.
You might be interested in a series of articles by pianist Hal Galper.
I was just checking them out on his web-site today. A lot of it
concerns how jazz is being learned today (in schools rather than "on the
bandstand"). He makes a lot of excellent points. You can find his site
at:
http://catskillwebpages.com/galper/
Particularly relevant to this discussion are his articles on "Jazz In
Academia" and "Historical Discontinuity" These are a "must read" for
anybody who's at all interested in playing jazz (He's also written great
articles on "Comping" "Forward Motion", etc.)
JFR
I have this cd and it is "interesting" to say the least. Ford actually
does more for me on this one than DiOrio, who seems to be having a real
"off" night for Joe. Normally, I would dig JD much more than Robben,
but this one was a big surprise. Of course, I wish they were both
tearing it up to the max, so it was a bit disappointing.
How about Joe DiOrio / Mick Goodrick - "Rare Birds". Now that's a
killin' unusual disc, agree?
John R>
In <34ebfc2a...@news.netstra.com.au> n...@emerald.cns.net.au
writes:
>
>
>And don't overlook the 1989 Joe Diorio/Robben Ford "Minor Elegance"
>with Peter Erskine and Gary Willis. It's a killer. It's released
>by MGI Records of West Germany and recorded live. Tracks are "Swank
>Thing" (with great blowing from Ford with a very humourous "quote" in
>his solo), AM, PM, E-minor Ballad (imaginative. eh?), Unis, Blues for
>All Space Cadets (??!!), Soul Eyes and So What. I got mine through
>Audiophile Imports in Baltimore a few years back. They have a web
>page and probably stacks more rare stuff. I remember it wasn't cheap.
>
>
>
>On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:36:05 -0800, ivy thomas <i...@teleport.com>
TomLippinc
>
> How about Joe DiOrio / Mick Goodrick - "Rare Birds". Now that's a
>killin' unusual disc, agree?
>
>
anyone know if this is available on CD?
Tom Lippincott
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <34EE2614...@ibm.net> Clay M Moore <cmm...@ibm.net> writes:
>
>His books are great but mostly out of print, unfortunately. So are the
>records, although Guitarchives is supposed to be re-releasing them. I
>attended a 3 day seminar of his in 1975, and it was one of the most
>intense musical experiences I have had. He was knowledgeable on so many
>subjects, and simply a monster guitar player.
I think the Praxis 3-volume series is still in print. It's basically
a collection of his GP magazine articles. Pretty good stuff.
You might be able to buy his books through GIT in Hollywood. They
used to sell xerox copies back in my day. He was still alive and
connected with the school then, so it was presumably with his
permission.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <34EE18...@L3C.com> wre...@L3C.com writes:
>Just picked up The Real Howard Roberts.
>Listen to his playing on Gone With The Wind, thats melodic!!
>Anyone know if his other CD's are good?
You probably now own his best pure jazz record. His Capitols
from the 60s are very fine, and often findable in used-LP
shops. They are very commercial yet still hip, in the same
way that 60s Benson was commercial yet hip.
In the 70s, Howard cut some weird things that are interesting
to hear now and then, but not really essential. I'd first try
to score some Capitols, and always keep an eye out for his 50s
stuff, because that's hard to find. You can hear him backing
Julie London in a trio with voice and bass. That's in print,
although she's not much of a singer.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <34ef6c6b...@news.netstra.com.au> n...@emerald.cns.net.au writes:
>I was tempted to mention the "Antelope Freeway" saga but I wasn't
>game in case I offended someone. I kinda recall there being a
>able to come near a HR album since. Given the reverence afforded his
>other material, I'll have to block out the Antelope Freeway period
>neuron damage and acquire some decent HR. Anyone out there have any
>ideas on what the Capitol period was all about? Was it a cynical
>move to get out of a bad record deal? I haven't heard or seen the
>Antelope Freeway LP for some 15 years and I wonder if I missed
>something that the "older and wiser me" might now pick up on.
The other one was Equinox Express Elevator, or something like that.
These were not supposed to be jazz albums. They were concept albums
that focused on humor, including a number of Firesign Theatre
performances. Remember, it was the 70s, and Howard was doing
a lot of drugs, and so was everyone else. You had to be there
to get it, I guess, although I never listen to those anymore
either. Comedy albums are usually only funny the first time through.
Those two are so weird they were probably only funny to the guys
when they were getting high and recording them.
>>When It was first issued (in late 70's, I think), "The Real Howard Roberts" on
>>Concord label,was a refreshing change from the years of mediocre or completely
>>horrid (e.g.,"Antelope Valley Freeway") LPs he made on Capitol.
I like most of his 60s Capitols. They are commercial, yes, but the
playing is always first-rate, the tunes are first-rate, and
there is always some hot soloing, even though it might be short.
Probably "Dirty Guitar Player" and "Color Me Funky" are the best,
but others are only a slight notch behind.
Rick Stone
Re: Howard Roberts books, Tom Brown wrote:
>I think the Praxis 3-volume series is still in print. It's basically
>a collection of his GP magazine articles. Pretty good stuff.
>
>You might be able to buy his books through GIT in Hollywood. They
>used to sell xerox copies back in my day. He was still alive and
>connected with the school then, so it was presumably with his
>permission.
The Howard Roberts Praxis books are in print and available through Jamey
Aebersold Jazz Aids. I read many of his articles in GP in the 70s and
they were excellent. You might want to check a good library. They
should have the back issues of GP on microfilm. If they don't have
them, sometimes they can get them through an inter-library loan.
Usually they have a special copy machine that will let you print out
pages from the microfilm.
--
JFR
In <6cj0fk$r...@news.jhu.edu> tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () writes:
>
>In article <34E9D98F...@isu.edu> Jonathan Byrd <j...@isu.edu>
writes:
>>so great. Wes is nicely melodic, but the more I thought about it,
his
>>use of melody was not a significant departure from what others had
>>done. I think even more highly of Wes's use of rhythmic figures,
though
>>again, he was not strikingly novel in his use of rhythm. The octaves
>>and chord solos he is known for were by no means new at the time he
was
>>doing them.
>
>from the difficulty of playing long, unbroken legato lines
>when you're thumb-picking and don't have access to backstrokes.
>Plus, he only used three fingers on his left hand for single-
>note lines, and that also tends to break up your flow.
>
>Sometimes I like to play Wes's record on Cottontail with the
>balance on my stereo turned all the way to one side, which
>drops out the bass and piano. You just hear guitar and percussion,
>and you can really get into how Wes phrased at rapid tempos.
>
>
What is the record you are referring to here?
John R>
JFR
to
>> horn players (that I think can "sing" easier through their
instrument
>> than we can on guitar) and other instrumentalists in jazz. Maybe
Wes'
>> melodicism had something to do with not learning jazz in the
standard
>> way, but instead copping it all by ear?
>
>Agreed, Wes was one of the most melodic. Even Jerry Coker, who tends
to be
>a bit horn-centric admits that Wes was among the most melodic
improvisors.
>I'm not sure which "standard way" you are refering to though, because
I'm
>under the impression most players learned primarily by ear in that
era.
>
>--
>Clay Moore
>
>Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these.-- Ovid
(43
>B.C.-A.D. 18)
>
>
Yes, but Wes could not transcribe solos in the sense of writing them
out and replaying them. He apparently could not read music (that's at
least the essence of what I have heard from various sources). So his
level of ear training and dependency on hearing was greater than most
players, even from his own era.
John R>
JFR
I understand both sides of this situation. But the artist has the
ultimate power to say no, and it is pretty sad that they don't more
often.
John R>
Marc Sabatella
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>I understand both sides of this situation. But the artist has the
>ultimate power to say no, and it is pretty sad that they don't more
>often.
Actually, the standard record contracts do *not* give the artist the
ultimate power to say no. If you are signed to a major label, you are
at the mercy of the producer(s). Which is why you hardly ever see
things like this on small labels - they aren't as likely to sign long
term contracts, and if they do, the artists have a bit more leverage to
strike clauses like that from the contract before they sign.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
"The Outside Shore"
A Jazz Improvisation Primer, Scores, Sounds, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Rick Stone
While it's true that the artist has the ultimate power to say "no," he
also often has the ultimate responsibility (to himself and his/her
family) to earn a living. Next time you're at work and the boss asks
you to do something that you don't really want to do, think about the
outcome if you were to just say "no." I don't know what you do for a
living, or how easy it is to find work, but in music, there's a lot of
competition and saying "no" can sometimes mean not being able to put
food on the table. It's unfortunate that musicians get put in these
situations, but you can hardly blame anyone for "doing what they gotta
do."
JFR wrote>
I understand both sides of this situation. But the artist has the
ultimate power to say no, and it is pretty sad that they don't more
often.
John R>
JFR
In <19980224083...@ladder03.news.aol.com> tomli...@aol.com
Yes, it is a relatively recent release, so it is only available on cd
as far as I know. It is on the Italian label RAM - RAMCD4505. I
bought my copy in Paris around 4 years ago, but I have seen it in Tower
stores in various US cities since then (at half the price I paid for
mine).
There are several great RAM cds that feature Goodrick, another one is
a quartet record that I can't find right now, but I think it is Claudio
Fasoli's date. It is called "Sunscreams" and they do an incredible
contrafact of Solar (thus the title cut) where they pedal point the
whole head to Cm with a very tricky line, then they blow on Solar
changes. Check out Goodrick's comping on that one. He does some real
outrageous chordal stuff, but never loses sight of the most important
aspect of comping - rhythm.
BTW, Minor Elegance is basically a pretty loose jam that seems to have
caught DiOrio on a bad day, IMHO.
John R>
JFR
In <34F74C...@inch.com> Rick Stone <jaz...@inch.com> writes:
>
>While it's true that the artist has the ultimate power to say "no," he
>also often has the ultimate responsibility (to himself and his/her
>family) to earn a living. Next time you're at work and the boss asks
>you to do something that you don't really want to do, think about the
>outcome if you were to just say "no." I don't know what you do for a
>living, or how easy it is to find work, but in music, there's a lot of
>competition and saying "no" can sometimes mean not being able to put
>food on the table. It's unfortunate that musicians get put in these
>situations, but you can hardly blame anyone for "doing what they gotta
>do."
>
>
Maybe it's time to find alternative ways to bring food to the table
then, rather than making records that don't tap your true creativity,
and mislead any supporters that have gotten to dig your "real music".
This is one of the arguments of being a hobby boy, to some degree, but
I don't want to start that again. I agree, that this is a complex
issue and we all have differing opinions on it.
It's a bummer for the jazz guitar junkie to buy a new Larry Coryell
record, after seeing it appear in the local franchise store, after
being all excited, and get home to hear him playing pop-smear. That
prevents me from buying any more of his new releases, but maybe it is
bringing more food to his table from the "hoi-poloi".
John R>
Rick Stone
JFR wrote:
>Maybe it's time to find alternative ways to bring food to the table
>then, rather than making records that don't tap your true creativity,
>and mislead any supporters that have gotten to dig your "real music".
>This is one of the arguments of being a hobby boy, to some degree, but
>I don't want to start that again. I agree, that this is a complex
>issue and we all have differing opinions on it.
>
>It's a bummer for the jazz guitar junkie to buy a new Larry Coryell
>record, after seeing it appear in the local franchise store, after
>being all excited, and get home to hear him playing pop-smear. That
>prevents me from buying any more of his new releases, but maybe it is
>bringing more food to his table from the "hoi-poloi".
That's why I put my stuff out on my own label. I retain ultimate
control over the product. Of course, it's also a bitch to get
distribution (which is why you probably haven't found my stuff easily in
your local stores). The big-label interests basically control what
people buy in the country by controlling what they CAN buy. I had about
a two-year gap when my stuff got omitted from Tower Records new computer
system (it's finally back in) and the geeks working behind the counter
would just tell people it didn't exist (not true, they order from North
Country and it was in the catalog all along).
A lot of artists are starting to go the self-produced route for
financial reasons too. Say you record for one of these small European
labels (Criss-Cross immediately comes to mind, but many others do the
same thing). You need to have copies of your CDs to send out to agents,
club-owners, festivals, etc., to get gigs. Most of these labels will
sell you your own CDs at $8.00 a pop. Figure over a period of time, you
might actually go through a few hundred of these "promos." These labels
don't pay their artists particularly well to begin with so you can
actually wind up subsidizing the release out of your own pocket. Plus
if the label goes out of business or decides to cutout your product, you
have no recourse. At least if you make the product, you control what
happens to it, and take the ultimate financial responsibility and
whatever profit or loss is involved.
TomLippinc
>
>That's why I put my stuff out on my own label. I retain ultimate
>control over the product. Of course, it's also a bitch to get
>distribution (which is why you probably haven't found my stuff easily in
>your local stores). The big-label interests basically control what
>people buy in the country by controlling what they CAN buy. I had about
>a two-year gap when my stuff got omitted from Tower Records new computer
>system (it's finally back in) and the geeks working behind the counter
>would just tell people it didn't exist (not true, they order from North
>Country and it was in the catalog all along).
>
>A lot of artists are starting to go the self-produced route for
>financial reasons too. Say you record for one of these small European
>labels (Criss-Cross immediately comes to mind, but many others do the
>same thing). You need to have copies of your CDs to send out to agents,
>club-owners, festivals, etc., to get gigs. Most of these labels will
>sell you your own CDs at $8.00 a pop. Figure over a period of time, you
>might actually go through a few hundred of these "promos." These labels
>don't pay their artists particularly well to begin with so you can
>actually wind up subsidizing the release out of your own pocket. Plus
>if the label goes out of business or decides to cutout your product, you
>have no recourse. At least if you make the product, you control what
>happens to it, and take the ultimate financial responsibility and
>whatever profit or loss is involved.
>
>
fascinating. Makes me even more glad I'm "doing it myself". In particular I
never knew the thing about having to buy CD's from the record co. for promos.
Thanks for the info.
Tom Lippincott
gi...@hotmail.com
Rick,
does Criss-Cross really do that? charge the artist $8.00 per pop for their own
promo copies? man that's a crummy deal. the artwork is terrible. every criss-
cross release is packaged with the same generic formula (musician on cover
with instrument...white background). Hat Art bugs me in the same way but at
least they use beautiful photography.
anyway, I really appreciate you and any artist taking control of your own
music and putting it out yourself. takes so much time and knowledge.
Adam G.
In article <350088...@inch.com>,
Rick Stone <jaz...@inch.com> wrote:
>
> A lot of artists are starting to go the self-produced route for
> financial reasons too. Say you record for one of these small European
> labels (Criss-Cross immediately comes to mind, but many others do the
> same thing). You need to have copies of your CDs to send out to agents,
> club-owners, festivals, etc., to get gigs. Most of these labels will
> sell you your own CDs at $8.00 a pop. Figure over a period of time, you
> might actually go through a few hundred of these "promos." These labels
> don't pay their artists particularly well to begin with so you can
> actually wind up subsidizing the release out of your own pocket. Plus
> if the label goes out of business or decides to cutout your product, you
> have no recourse. At least if you make the product, you control what
> happens to it, and take the ultimate financial responsibility and
> whatever profit or loss is involved.
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Rick Stone
JFR wrote:
>Why don't you tell us something about your cds, e.g. personnel, tunes,
>style, and how to order. I don't think this would be an abuse of the
>newsgroup since many here would be interested and welcome some
>description.
This info is also on my web-site (along with a few WAV files) at
http://www.inch.com/~jazzand
but for those who might not have browsers, here goes:
Title:
Rick Stone Quartet "Far East" (Jazzand JCD002)
Personnel:
Rick Stone (guitar)
Kenny Barron (piano)
Don Gladstone (bass)
Curtis Boyd (drums)
Tracks:
Far East (Rick Stone) (644k wav)
Yours is My Heart Alone (Franz Lehar)
For Heaven's Sake (Vaughn-Fuller-Allen)
Nascimento (Barry Harris) (558k wav)
This I Dig of You (Hank Mobley) (418kwav)
Vodka (Mal Waldron)
Lullaby for Alex (Rick Stone)
Green House (Bobby Porcelli)
Dance of the Infidels (Bud Powell)
Repetition (Neil Hefti)
Fried Bananas (Dexter Gordon)
Ordering Information:
The Rick Stone Quartet FAR EAST w. Kenny Barron
can be ordered direct from Jazzand.
Just send a check of money order for $15.00 per CD to:
Jazzand
12 Micieli Place
Brooklyn, NY 11218
It's also available through Cadence/North Country, Tower Records, and CD
Now.
My first release "Blues for Nobody" with Hal Galper, Brian Hurley, Billy
Hart and Marc Bernstein is currently out of print. I released it on LP
in the 80's and am thinking about reissuing it on CD, but at this point
I'd rather get something new out there (been writing a lot the past few
years). I also have a cassette-only release of The Rick Stone Quartet
with Eric Alexander (tenor) Sam Yahel (organ) and Joe Farnsworth
(drums).