Legality of selling transcriptions
Tim Berens
I am considering publishing transcriptions of the solos of well known
guitarists. Does anybody have any insight into the legality of
this? It appears to be a legal gray area as long as the
transcriptions do not include the melody of the original song.
Does anybody have any experience with selling transcriptions? Did the
copyright police come knocking on your door when you did it?
Thanks for your help.
Tim Berens
http://timberens.com
jimmybruno
solos belong to the artist. It is best to get their permission
TD
I never sold one. I always gave them away to a student. I usually
utilize them in lesson form. That is, with suggested picking and
fingerings ( and adding a variety of alternate suggestions, as well).
You may have a safer approach in presenting ( within lesson context
and premise) things in a similar manner. Other than that, you might
approach a publishing company, if you have a compilation, for example.
The Co. deals with the logistics there of.
-TD
Paul Mitchell Brown
application that shows only the chords of standard tunes (e.g. no
melodies). Things are certainly getting tougher in that area. Best to
follow Jimmy and Tony's advice.
Tim Berens
>
> solos belong to the artist. It is best to get their permission
Do the solos belong to the performer or to the owner of the copyright
for the recording on which the solos appear? For example, I have
played solos on the CDs of other people who paid me to play on their
CD. My assumption is that the owner of the copyright to the
recording owns those solos.
Likewise, a performer who plays on a major label CD usually does not
own the copyright to the recording, so, my guess is then that the
record label owns the solos.
Or perhaps I'm wrong and the artist owns the solos -- the pitches
created -- but not the recording of them. If that's the case, who
owns the solos of a performer who has passed on, such as Wes
Montgomery?
Thanks,
Tim Berens
http://timberens.com
Gerry
> I am considering publishing transcriptions of the solos of well known
> guitarists. Does anybody have any insight into the legality of
> this? It appears to be a legal gray area as long as the
> transcriptions do not include the melody of the original song.
>
> Does anybody have any experience with selling transcriptions? Did the
> copyright police come knocking on your door when you did it?
I would like very much to proof your transcripts. Regardling their
legality: Publish away. We have no copyright law that pertains to
improvised content. I'd like to see the Supreme Corporate Court's
ruling on such matters.
The "educational intent" clause is the most significant factor,
particularly relating to commercial publications (Mel Bay, etc.) whose
intent it is to educate. So that doubly splits the oddity.
You know already that copyright law applies to compositions. That's
all well and good. I appreciate the fact that living performers should
have some significant "ownership" consideration. For those dead and
gone for whom no family members, nor publication compananies, nor
sax-player institutes consider it important or worth their while to go
through the necessary labor to produce and disseminate these glories
for educational purposes--I say fuck 'em!
If you distribute with no remuneration I can't imagine anyone would
slap you with a suit. If commercial--find a mutually acceptable split
rate on your profit. You sunk X hours in at feasible cost of Y
dollars. They pay you, and they can have the rights to your labor!
--
-- At this point Sharazad saw the approach of morning and discreetly
fell silent.
Rick Stone
If the artist is alive, I'd discuss it with him BEFORE you invest a lot
of time in it. Maybe approach him with a sample of your transcription
work (a finished transcription in publishable form) and a proposal. If
you've already got a publisher in mind and they've shown interest, then
that should strengthen your case. I would think that the artist is
going to want a significant share of the royalties from any such deal.
Then again, if there are standard tunes involved, you'll probably need
to get permission from the publisher of each tune (this is probably the
most difficult area). If you can hook up with a publisher who's already
done this type of book before, you'll probably have better luck, but
they'll probably offer you very low money. After all, you're basically
just performing a clerical function for them. Transcribers don't make
huge bread from these types of deals.
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
EPK: http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Bg
book about H.R.
If you could find his E-mail address I'm sure he could help.
Bg
Bg
wrote:
One of the Old Pocket chnages bookss I had, had only the first letter
of each word in Song titles, Stella would be
S------= B--- S------------
If you bought the book you'd get the index on a separate sheet . You
could then fill the words in.
Bg
Tim McNamara
<2dbb1b22-45fc-43c5...@r14g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Tim Berens <t...@timberens.com> wrote:
> Greetings
>
> I am considering publishing transcriptions of the solos of well known
> guitarists. Does anybody have any insight into the legality of this?
> It appears to be a legal gray area as long as the transcriptions do
> not include the melody of the original song.
>
> Does anybody have any experience with selling transcriptions? Did
> the copyright police come knocking on your door when you did it?=
As far as I can tell there would still be copyright issues because you
are transcribing an arrangement that belongs to the artist who recorded
it. But I've got no idea how one goes about licensing a transcription
for distribution.
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ‹ to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
Greg/oasysco
I always thought that the only parts of a song that can be copyrighted
are the title, melody, and lyrics. I believe that drum licks, bass
lines, guitar solos, rhythms, chord charts and the like do not fall
under copyright law. For example, were not some of Charlie Parker's
solos turned into melodies by others and recorded as songs without
credit to Parker?
van
I should also point out that someone did publish a book of solos by
the artist whose story I posted.
That person was some University geek who found his book out of print
before the year was up.
He didn't get permission from the artist either. Every leap year, you
can find a used copy of that book for $100 on Amazon.
Neer
When I was creating my steel guitar DVD using a Buddy Emmons
composition and solo, I sent Buddy an email through another party and
he sent me an email back giving me his blessing and saying that I
should save the email as proof that he said so. I was elated and
honored.
Tim Berens
> As far as I can tell there would still be copyright issues because you
> are transcribing an arrangement that belongs to the artist who recorded
> it. But I've got no idea how one goes about licensing a transcription
> for distribution.
>
> --
That's the issue -- how does one license the rights to publish a
transcription? Many different people can own a piece of a jazz solo
on a recording: the player, the owner of the song's copyright, the
owner of the publishing rights for the song, the owner of the
recording's copyright . . . and these can all be different people or
corporations.
I have no problem doing this the right way. I'm just trying to find
out what the "right way" is.
Thanks,
Mr Maj6th
wrote:
I would love to see some of his harmonic transcriptions.
Maj6th
TD
Contact Hal Leonard Publishing. Ask to speak to Jeff Shredyl.
Publishers have the current answers. Better than poking around in the
dark. Just to reiterate, there is little money in transcriptions. You
may be advised to sell them on your own in order to make more money.
The plus of a reputable publisher is in the distribution, as well as
getting your name out there and opening possible opportunities for
more books. Another big plus, for example with HL or Warner, is that
they own the rights to a good deal of the tunes you have transcribed.
They will ask you to add tab and possibly audio as well. No matter how
you cut it, alone or with a pub house, it is merely a labor of love.
You will need twenty or thirty books published to make any decent
money. Just info for you. What, how, and why is only your perogative.
But let nothing stop you.
-TD
Rick Stone
Tony speaks the truth. The publishers have offices full of lawyers to
figure this stuff out! Ask his guy at HL.
Steve Freides
In your place, I think I'd contact ASCAP or BMI and ask for the
guidance.
The trouble is that there is mis-information and conflicting information
about this sort of thing, and you never know whether what someone is
telling you is the truth or not, or even exactly what "the truth" is in
this context. I don't think that you're going to find any right
answer - your best bet, as other have suggested, is to contact the
artists who played the solos in which you're interested and ask about
their policy for such things. You may find, e.g., that some say it's
just fine, while others say it's not at all OK with them, while yet
others refer you to their agents and/or publishers. You've opened
Pandora's box.
My "rights" story - I was playing in a local coffee shop with my son and
a few of his friends. The kids were in 10th grade at the time, and I
had invited them over for a weekly jam session at which we played
through standards. Everyone who happened to stop by the house thought
it sounded good enough that we ought to play out, so we made an
arrangement with the coffee shop to play for a couple of hours one
evening - for free, just for the experience of doing it for the kids.
Someone in the music rights/copyright business heard about this and gave
the owner of the coffee shop absolute _hell_ about it - "You can't do
that, it's illegal, I'll report you, even if it's free you still have to
contact the copyright owners of every tune they're going to play and pay
for it before they play it," and so it went. The shop ower was
terrified.
Fortunately for us, the coffee shop was a francise, so the owner called
headquarters, and they told him to relax, that they had some sort of
blanket contract wherein they paid royalties for all the recorded music
they played and that our little concert was completely covered by that
contract - end of story. But it was still a good example of how much
mis-information is out there on this subject. If that coffee shop
hadn't been a francise, I'm still not sure how it would have all ended.
-S-
Luke Brouillette
Sounds to me like TD has the best approach. It might be of interest
for you contact Tim Fitzgerald who did the 625 Alive: Wes Montgomery
transcriptions.
Lukejazz
Guido Scope
If a melody is created the creator automatically has a copyright on it.
Improvising a solo is creating a melody, so it can be copyrighted. One
condition for copyright however, is that the work has to be fixated in a
final form. This is the case when a record is made.
So you are free to go to a concert (which is not recorded by the artist)
tape a solo yourself and transcribe and sell it. A solo on a record
however is protected by copyright as long as the copyright hasn't
expired.
Copyrights end a certain amount of years after the death of the
creator. Often 70 years, but there are differences between legal systems.
In the US copyright on works from before 1-1-1978 ended sooner (I believe
28 years), but could be renewed. The renewal possibilities from time get
expanded, when (believe it or not) Mickey Mouse is going towards the
end of its maximal copyright term. (Obviously Walt Disney is a powerful
lobbyist.)
When a record is made sidemen often have something in their contract, that
they just get paid for the recording and transfer all other rights.
Copyrights in general are often but not always transfered to the record
company. (Miles Davis signed contracts like that and therefore didn't play
his own recorded compositons live for many years.)
Guido Scope
Gerry
> A solo on a record however is protected by copyright as long as the
> copyright hasn't
> expired.
That's news to me, and I'd be interested in seeing that aspect of the
copyright law if it's available somewhere on line.
Still, with jazz solos of artists long dead: If there are two options,
transcribed and "iffy" in the law, versus legally dead because those
with the rights to the piece have no interest in its perpetuation,
again, I say fuck 'em.
For me it's a question of ethics trumping capitalist conception. Two
ideas in direct competition in such matters that hopes to extinguish
the substance of our culure: its artifacts. If the "owner" considers
it not-profitable-enough to waste their time with, it should cease to
exist. I think that is unfair. No; contemptible.
> Copyrights end a certain amount of years after the death of the
> creator. Often 70 years, but there are differences between legal systems.
> In the US copyright on works from before 1-1-1978 ended sooner (I believe
> 28 years), but could be renewed. The renewal possibilities from time get
> expanded, when (believe it or not) Mickey Mouse is going towards the
> end of its maximal copyright term. (Obviously Walt Disney is a powerful
> lobbyist.)
It's already over, and I understand we had a quickee rewrite of the law
to satisfy the capitalist need.
> When a record is made sidemen often have something in their contract, that
> they just get paid for the recording and transfer all other rights.
> Copyrights in general are often but not always transfered to the record
> company. (Miles Davis signed contracts like that and therefore didn't play
> his own recorded compositons live for many years.)
Modern capitalist law at its finest.
Rick Stone
ASCAP and BMI deal ONLY in performance rights. They have NOTHING to do
with publishing.
And in the case of your coffee shop, the franchise had their act
together and had a blanket agreement. Because yes, even if the music is
played for "free" (or even if you're just playing CDs or the Radio) it
is considered a service that's being offered to the customers (who are
paying something).
Rick Stone
> Op Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:02:13 -0700, schreef Tim Berens:
>
>> Greetings
>>
>> I am considering publishing transcriptions of the solos of well known
>> guitarists. Does anybody have any insight into the legality of
>> this? It appears to be a legal gray area as long as the
>> transcriptions do not include the melody of the original song.
>>
>> Does anybody have any experience with selling transcriptions? Did the
>> copyright police come knocking on your door when you did it?
>>
>> Thanks for your help.
>>
>> Tim Berens
>> http://timberens.com
>
> If a melody is created the creator automatically has a copyright on it.
> Improvising a solo is creating a melody, so it can be copyrighted. One
> condition for copyright however, is that the work has to be fixated in a
> final form. This is the case when a record is made.
>
> So you are free to go to a concert (which is not recorded by the artist)
> tape a solo yourself and transcribe and sell it. A solo on a record
> however is protected by copyright as long as the copyright hasn't
> expired.
Actually this isn't true. The very act of recording somebody else'
concert yourself without their authorization, is a copyright violation.
Some performers can be very adamant about this (Barney Kessell was
know to walk out into the audience and take the cassette right out of a
recorder if he saw this going on.
> Copyrights end a certain amount of years after the death of the
> creator. Often 70 years, but there are differences between legal systems.
> In the US copyright on works from before 1-1-1978 ended sooner (I believe
> 28 years), but could be renewed. The renewal possibilities from time get
> expanded, when (believe it or not) Mickey Mouse is going towards the
> end of its maximal copyright term. (Obviously Walt Disney is a powerful
> lobbyist.)
>
> When a record is made sidemen often have something in their contract, that
> they just get paid for the recording and transfer all other rights.
> Copyrights in general are often but not always transfered to the record
> company. (Miles Davis signed contracts like that and therefore didn't play
> his own recorded compositons live for many years.)
>
> Guido Scope
guitarannie
>
> My "rights" story - I was playing in a local coffee shop with my son and
> a few of his friends. The kids were in 10th grade at the time, and I
> had invited them over for a weekly jam session at which we played
> through standards. Everyone who happened to stop by the house thought
> it sounded good enough that we ought to play out, so we made an
> arrangement with the coffee shop to play for a couple of hours one
> evening - for free, just for the experience of doing it for the kids.
>
> Someone in the music rights/copyright business heard about this and gave
> the owner of the coffee shop absolute _hell_ about it - "You can't do
> that, it's illegal, I'll report you, even if it's free you still have to
> contact the copyright owners of every tune they're going to play and pay
> for it before they play it," and so it went. The shop ower was
> terrified.
>
> Fortunately for us, the coffee shop was a francise, so the owner called
> headquarters, and they told him to relax, that they had some sort of
> blanket contract wherein they paid royalties for all the recorded music
> they played and that our little concert was completely covered by that
> contract - end of story. But it was still a good example of how much
> mis-information is out there on this subject. If that coffee shop
> hadn't been a francise, I'm still not sure how it would have all ended.
>
> -S-
It would have ended like "The Nuages Trio" ended in the coffee house
in Pasadena.
I suggested that we just make our own melodies 'cause the espresso
machine was drowning out the band anyway and no one paid much
attention except A.S.C.A.P.. but then I discovered the only one who
could make melodies to my chagrin.
SAS
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
'chagrin chagrin, fa la la la lala lahh, chagrin, chagrin'..
-TD
Guido Scope
> On 2011-04-15 08:36:36 -0700, Guido Scope said:
>
>> A solo on a record however is protected by copyright as long as the
>> copyright hasn't
>> expired.
>
> That's news to me, and I'd be interested in seeing that aspect of the
> copyright law if it's available somewhere on line.
Here is an article. The first paragraph's under "Requirement of Fixation in
Copyright Law" are very clear.
http://kb-law.info/wt_dev/kbc.php?article=180&view=print&land=US&lang=EN&mode=1
Guido Scope
Guido Scope
> On 4/15/2011 11:36 AM, Guido Scope wrote:
>> Op Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:02:13 -0700, schreef Tim Berens:
>>
.........
>> If a melody is created the creator automatically has a copyright on it.
>> Improvising a solo is creating a melody, so it can be copyrighted. One
>> condition for copyright however, is that the work has to be fixated in a
>> final form. This is the case when a record is made.
>>
>> So you are free to go to a concert (which is not recorded by the artist)
>> tape a solo yourself and transcribe and sell it. A solo on a record
>> however is protected by copyright as long as the copyright hasn't
>> expired.
>
> Actually this isn't true. The very act of recording somebody else'
> concert yourself without their authorization, is a copyright violation.
> Some performers can be very adamant about this (Barney Kessell was
> know to walk out into the audience and take the cassette right out of a
> recorder if he saw this going on.
You're right. Recording some one elses concert is not allowed without
permission.
If you trow away the tape, however. Nothing can be done against the
transcription of the "non-recorded" solo itself.
Guido
Gerry
>>> A solo on a record however is protected by copyright as long as the
>>> copyright hasn't expired.
>>
>> That's news to me, and I'd be interested in seeing that aspect of the
>> copyright law if it's available somewhere on line.
>
> Here is an article. The first paragraph's under "Requirement of Fixation in
> Copyright Law" are very clear.
>
> http://kb-law.info/wt_dev/kbc.php?article=180&view=print&land=US&lang=EN&mode=1
Thanks so much.
It's a curious abstract concept, so it would be likely even more
interesting to see it contorted to fit actual legal action. I wonder
how much money could be reaped for Charlie Parker's estate, say, by
plumbing the many recordings that contain his figures? Elsewhere in the
law you purportedly have to play more than X bars of a figure in order
to violate the law. I wonder how that would apply to improvisations.
This seems, in the abstract to apply directly to Tim's situation,
unless he doesn't use the artist's name.
I wonder who could sue me if I transcribed solo is over--what is it
22+22 years? Whatever the non-Disney clause precludes.
I just tried to figure it out by looking at the law:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
And particularly with the Sonny Bono Extension (Chapter 3), I can make
no sense of it.
Guido Scope
By the way, as you can read there Californian state law also protects
improvised works, that are not fixated. But it's the only state in the US.
In Russia jazz improvisation is protected:
http://sociologyindex.com/russian_copyright_law.htm
In Europe the system is comparable to US Federal Law (fixation is
necessary):
http://www.scandinavianlaw.se/pdf/42-2.pdf
At the bottom of page nr 41, which is page 11 of the pdf file. It's not
stated very clear there, but clear enough to get the point.
Guido
guitarannie
Careful now, there may be a copyright infringement here.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, I completely forgot the My Sweet Lord ruling. I shall repent.
-TD
Tim Berens
>
> Here is an article. The first paragraph's under "Requirement of Fixation in
> Copyright Law" are very clear.
>
> http://kb-law.info/wt_dev/kbc.php?article=180&view=print&land=US&lang...
>
> Guido Scope
Thank you very much -- that is a great link for explaining the issues.
Tim Berens
>
> Contact Hal Leonard Publishing. Ask to speak to Jeff Shredyl.
>
> -TD
Excellent advice.
Thanks,
Steve Freides
I suggested it only as a starting point. They are people who make sure
composers get compensated - is there a similar, central kind of
organization that handles publishing in the way ASCAP and BMI handle
performing?
I apologize if my ignorance is showing - I don't know much about this
and was just trying to be helpful.
-S-
Nice Dan from UK
It's worth asking the guy who successfully sell the Pat Martino
transcriptions (+ Wes and others) http://www.docheuser.de/
jjtko75
Tony's is the best of all the advice given so far. I'm surprised no
one's mentioned this but, unless you get contracted by HL or another
publisher, the only way to be absolutely sure is to hire a competent
lawyer and get a formal opinion from him or her. All the rest is
speculation. Since there are many books of transcriptions commercially
available, it's well-settled as to what the rules are. I'm sure you
can find a lawyer who'll do this for free just to get the
exposure. ;-)
Many years ago I became friendly with the guy who transcribed most of
the solos in the most omnipresent book of transcriptions of all time.
He said that he did not make as much money as you might think for his
efforts. But the book's publisher is still making money off this book
or it would not still be in print. So Tony's observation on self-
publishing seems to ring true.
John
Rick Stone
> Tony's is the best of all the advice given so far. I'm surprised no
> one's mentioned this but, unless you get contracted by HL or another
> publisher, the only way to be absolutely sure is to hire a competent
> lawyer and get a formal opinion from him or her. All the rest is
> speculation. Since there are many books of transcriptions commercially
> available, it's well-settled as to what the rules are. I'm sure you
> can find a lawyer who'll do this for free just to get the
> exposure. ;-)
>
> Many years ago I became friendly with the guy who transcribed most of
> the solos in the most omnipresent book of transcriptions of all time.
> He said that he did not make as much money as you might think for his
> efforts. But the book's publisher is still making money off this book
> or it would not still be in print. So Tony's observation on self-
> publishing seems to ring true.
>
> John
"omnipresent book of transcriptions?" You mean the Omnibook? I agree
that it's not high-paying to work for the publishers (I knew guys who
did this for Hal Leonard and they said they made about $20/hour). It's
basically looked at as almost clerical work. OTOH, unless you want to
do as John suggests (hire a lawyer and start your own publishing
company) it's probably the easiest way. Most likely though, if you go
that route, it won't be so much about what YOU want to transcribe, but
about what THEY assign to you which will probably have a lot to do with
what material THEY already own the rights to. Maybe if you go to them
with an idea for a killer project, they might go for it (then again,
they might just take the idea and run with it using their own people,
it's a crap-shoot since ideas can't be copyrighted).
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Maybe if you go to them
with an idea for a killer project, they might go for it..."
Yea, like maybe Eric Clapton's solo on Autumn Leaves. Best thing is to
approach one of them German publishers that digs jazz. The big
companies won't spend the bread on cover designs and advertising
anymore, much for jazz. It's best to just "shut up and play yer
guitar", with all that would-be transcribe time (I speak in general).
Yet, all is possible, especially if you already have done so much of
the transcribing work. The big companies usually want audio as well.
For example, my method book, I had to go into the studio and record
all them mf'n ideas. It becomes personal and mixed with the right
amount of conviction. If he wishes to become an in house transcriber,
well...that's another story. We can borrow from Mel Brooks' (with
permission, of course), 'The Inquisition.' " The transcription, let's
begin, when I first met Raney, he was sippin' gin..."
-TD
Fuzztone, Ammo
> I suggested that we just make our own melodies 'cause the espresso
> machine was drowning out the band anyway and no one paid much
> attention except A.S.C.A.P.
That's the best approach, actually. Write it yourself.
How do you get great at phrasing? Play along with the recording of
someone you admire. When you listen and copy, you are honoring the
soloist: when you attempt by ear to reproduce it, you are playing your
own composition, even if you play it note for note. Just so long as
you are *not reading*.
This is the essence of folk music: it is pre-literate.
But if you listen and listen and try to perfect the transcription note
for note, and reproduce that by reading (even if you don't read very
well!) you are violating copyright.
Every great player has influences. Traditionally all players have
acknowledged their influences. But when it comes to copyright
violations, lawsuits, etc., the composer may be surprised by a
lawsuit, like George Harrison was for writing "My Sweet Lord".
It is a fine idea to transcribe heads, but they are often all that is
transcribed by the publishers (due to publishing expenses, and this
also is why they must fade away in the digital age... printing is
prohibitively expensive and maintaining a printed collection is
inefficient), though we all know that solos is where the personality
and creativity reside.
You have to transcribe a solo in order to understand what is going
through the soloist's mind as he navigates the changes. The more you
do this, the better you get at it, and eventually you can listen to a
player and internalize his method, then comment on his ideas with your
own style, and that truly is improvisation.
Playing a recorded solo note for note is not jazz. That's classical
music. Or if derived from a jazz improvisation, it is classical jazz,
and if you want to do this, the audition line-ups run around the block
from the stage door.
Still, transcription is an art, and ought to be encouraged. A
newsgroup like this is an excellent way to learn how to do it better,
and to get feedback from people who know how to read and write.
I went down this path recently, and encountered quite a few players
who had a voracious reading appetite, who felt inspired to share
samples of their digital libraries, and who commented in some detail
about my transcriptions - especially when it came to specifying
fretboard fingering on a TAB staff.
FWIW the transcriptions I have posted on the web have not brought me
ruin nor income. Many of them are better quality than the publishers
offer, in my not so humble opinion, and since that's the case, it is
my firm belief that they should either get out of the business of pay
me to do more of the same.
There are a couple of other jazz guitar transcribers on forums like
this, who are far and away better than me. Participating in this forum
makes my playing increase by leaps and bounds.
My advice to to keep transcribing and to offer your work for free or
for trade with other private transcribers, thus creating and joining a
community of like minded players. It should be understood however that
copyright should be respected to the extent that a composer has
demonstrated originality. (and this concept ought to be defined in
detail).
Good one Annie
Ammo