Clip fatigue
Five Sharp
I've been trying to record for a few days but nothing comes out. I can't
even listen to other people's clips anymore.
Maybe it's the Donna Lee syndrome.
#####
charles robinson
sites . It is incredible to hear guys from all over the world. The fact that
something can be played and be out there in less than an hour is amazing The
nice thing is that we are getting things that haven't been filtered through
the established system. Because the learning process for a musician never
ends there are many advantages to being exposed to different ideas on a
daily basis plus I'd rather play than talk about it.
Charlie
P.S. You were the one who started all this years ago.Now that it is finally
starting to happen on a large scale you are getting bored.Maybe it is
because you wan't to move on to something better---
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:39doquF...@individual.net...
Five Sharp
clip-wise. Been doing that for a few years. I want to play more with real
people on a steady basis. So not just jams or the occasional gig that I do
when called for. Maybe it's time to start a combo under my own name.
Or maybe it's time to study more so I can tell new stories in my clips.
#####
Five Sharp
#####
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> schreef in bericht
news:39drchF...@individual.net...
copious
made that statement.
Do you think it will ever be possible to have a Jam Session over the
InterNet, provided each player has enough bandwidth?
I'm still new to Jazz playing and though nothing beats the REAL THING
it might be very interesting to have adhoc sessions with drummers, bass
players and piano players from all over the world in the comfprt of
your home.. Until you get to the club for the weekend. You think?
just an idea,
Cheers
charles robinson
yourself, clip making etc. can replace playing live. I was shocked a while
back when you announced that you were content to stay home and just record
to backing tapes.There are bandstand skills that have to be maintained or
you will lose them.The interaction with an audience and the other musicians
is something that can never be replaced by these means.
Charlie
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:39drgvF...@individual.net...
Joe Finn
>I've been trying to record for a few days but nothing comes out. I can't
>even listen to other people's clips anymore.
I listened to a few as clip mania began to overtake the group. Charlie's was
one that I liked. I'm not listening anymore due to the fatigue factor.
It may take a while longer for this pathology to run it's course.
.........joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
charles robinson
problems that made it impossible.
Charlie
"copious" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110555097....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Five Sharp
stage experiences but I have been negelecting them for sure. In order for
you to keep up some stage routine you just have to be out there regularly.
Lately I have been frowning upon local bass players and drummers because
they did not sound as tight as my Aebersold backing ...:)
#####
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:EvudnborIOo...@comcast.com...
Joe Finn
news:R_idnZiRtaP...@comcast.com...
> Dick, Kevin and I tried that a while back but ran into sound latency
> problems that made it impossible.
>
> Charlie
The thing that occoured to me was that even if all the technical problems
could be overcome, what would be the point? .....joe
Five Sharp
has set in ... I'm not a structural anagonist like you Joe ... How could I
... I've been recording them intensively for a few years. For guys just
jumping on the bandwagon like Charlie I guess it's still exciting. Good for
them.
I am playing with the idea of doing DVD stuff with a real band. We gotta
move on. Anyway the visual thing is there to stay for me. I'd much rather
record a DVD than a CD.
#####
Five Sharp
as jamming only not in the same room. Surely you can see the point of
that????
#####
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> schreef in bericht
news:1110556958.91a9dbe5875edd59a2eeb23e9e958c43@teranews...
Joe Finn
> I'm not anti clip of course but Í must admit on a personal level the
> fatigue
> has set in ... I'm not a structural anagonist like you Joe ... How could
> I
> ... I've been recording them intensively for a few years. For guys just
> jumping on the bandwagon like Charlie I guess it's still exciting. Good
> for
> them.
I think that you've put your finger on something interesting about this
group though. It's something that's always there because of the medium. We
are in reality a bunch of guys sitting in front of a bunch of monitors. I
sometimes feel bad about this because I could be spending my time more
productively. Oh well. If that's structural antagonism I guess I'm guilty as
charged. 8-)
> I am playing with the idea of doing DVD stuff with a real band. We gotta
> move on. Anyway the visual thing is there to stay for me. I'd much rather
> record a DVD than a CD.
That's a great idea! I think this and your previous comment about starting a
band under your own name are what you should do. Go for it. I don't think
it's antagonistic to suggest that more guys sitting in front of monitors
should do the same.
Good luck. If there is anything I can do to help just say the word.
......joe
copious
fiber optic lines become more common and with fiber latency drops leaps
and bounds. I think I recall reading that the human ear can distinguish
50ms in time lapse, so I'm familiar with this issue as I have played
"video games" (ha!) that require low ping times (low latency).
Voice over IP is facing the same issue but I really think that with
fiber optic lines that this will not be such an issue at all for
players roughly 300-400 miles apart!
Still, it makes me wonder, is that a sign of the times? Virtual
jazz.... lol. I kind of like the "undergrounded-ness" (not a word) of
it all..
Cheers
Five Sharp
will create new forms of art.
Maybe without the latency problems you could record a CD with guys playing
in their different homes thousands of miles apart. So what? Bebop ain't over
but the days of bebop are ...
#####
"copious" <black...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1110557588.8...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
copious
Tristeza - Oscar Peterson Trio.
I found this Jewel last week.. WOW... Best Hard Bob Jazz piano albumn..
Ever?!
PS: It really disturbs me that other players from around the world
don;t make it into the US centric view of the BORDER PATROL on Jaz and
music in general. It's as if the only music that is even SOLD in the US
are US artist.. I've noticed this more and more thoughout the years..
Bummer..
PSS: Get Tristeza, if you would.. I promise.. It's a classic of
magnitude.. of the likes I have not heard ever come out of a piano or a
trio for that matter,, wow...
Joe Finn
> We are talking about real time playing together on-line Joe. It's the same
> as jamming only not in the same room. Surely you can see the point of
> that????
It would be like a video conference call where we were playing jazz?
You wouldn't rather do live? I would. ...joe
Five Sharp
Joe.
#####
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> schreef in bericht
news:1110557676.768a7509c5b2c3c6e79f2725f8628a30@teranews...
Five Sharp
you could actually SEE each other through a camcorder, well it would almost
be like the real thing.
#####
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> schreef in bericht
news:1110557893.9c41da1316c299761d2baa5730803d5d@teranews...
copious
exchange ideas on a new format.
Besides if such a thing became practical and hot, I could see musicians
opting for a few sessions of this type of music if they didn;t have to
bus themselves all over the place just to get a gig. Then again, I
could be stretching it there..
Stage left ; )
Five Sharp
#####
"copious" <black...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1110558468.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Joe Finn
>I always thought you hated clips because of the unjazz like nature of them,
>Joe.
Well there's that too.
I'll always remember that Parker clip you did. My son heard me listening to
it and insisted on learning the solo just like you. He was really getting
into jazz at the time and your clip seemed to give him a lot of incentive.
He hasn't looked back either. He played in a concert last week with David
Sanchez. I posted a pic.
http://www.joefinn.net/html/proud_papa.html
I'm late for rehearsal. gotta go. later, man.
....joe
--
Rick Ross
of speaking..incomplete compositions are electronically transferred to
"guest artists"..they open these files up in Pro Tools or something like
that in their home studios...lay down their parts and email back to producer
for finalization..recently in the ADAT heyday, the tapes were sent overnight
to players and the parts were added and overnighted back..this kinda
technological fragmentation offers up many possibilites (especially
commercail) as it diminishes the value of "live" performance..
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message
<1110557893.9c41da1316c299761d2baa5730803d5d@teranews> :
>
>"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
>news:39du0iF...@individual.net...
>> We are talking about real time playing together on-line Joe. It's the same
>> as jamming only not in the same room. Surely you can see the point of
>> that????
>
>
>It would be like a video conference call where we were playing jazz?
>
>You wouldn't rather do live? I would. ...joe
Come on Joe, open up a little. It's just as "live" as guys in a studio
with earphones on physically separated by soundproofing barriers.
I find the prospect amazing and exciting that two or three guys
spread across the globe could musically interact in real time over the
internet. I had high hopes that broadband internet would have been
enough to facilitate it. It seems that the bottlenecks occur
somewhere in between where we have no control. But I'm sure that
sooner rather than later it will be possible. When playing jazz I
communicate much more with my ears than with my eyes so I'm not sure
how much it matters where the other guys are as long as we can hear
each other.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html
Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <bui331tigeuhk1dlm...@4ax.com> :
>>
>>It would be like a video conference call where we were playing jazz?
>>
>>You wouldn't rather do live? I would. ...joe
and another thing... Of course I'd rather play in the same room with
whoever it is, but no one is talking about replacing or substituting
for that. It's about taking advantage of technology to create
opportunities that otherwise would be impossible. I always get so
much from duo sessions with other guitarists. It was a highlight of
my summer to spend a few hours over two or three meetings jamming with
Jay Carlson last July. If technology enabled me to jam with someone
like Richard B who is thousands of miles away, why wouldn't I want to
do it?
Paul Kirk
1110556118.c4bb5843ade4742e8a31352157e7e46f@teranews, "Joe Finn"
<J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
Pathology is a harsh word, Joe. Many people here, including myself, enjoy
listening to clips of players at all levels. We post in the spirit of
participating in this NG in an extended way. I get inspired when the good
players who hang here post clips. I enjoy hearing clips from the beginners
and intermediate players too: they inspire me when I hear someone who is at
my modest level toying around with ideas I toy with and I hear how they
solve the problems. I enjoy hearing how beginners are starting out,
reminding me of where I was, and allowing me to see how they grow. You've
posted a bunch of your clips on your own site, so you must see some point to
it.
You've made clear that you hate listening to them, as best as I can
understand because you feel that the main thing you listen for in jazz is
group interaction (although you do post solo clips on your site). No
problem. But if you donšt like to listen or participate in this activity,
why spend so much effort and posts railing against it with a
"holier-than-thou" attitude? It doesnšt raise your stature as a jazz
guitarist (only your recordings or performances matter as far as that is
concerned). For example, Dick has posted clips for a long time; his
progress has been very interesting to follow and inspirational to many who
read/lurk here. Your comments piss on him and them. As another example, Jaz
or Bormann are significantly more accomplished players than you and yet
they post clips. So the idea that a good player would not waste his time
with it is just wrong. You donšt dig it, fine. We get it.
W all know that playing with a group is where this art form reaches its
peak. It doesn't mean posting clips is pathology.
Paul K.
copious
Tell him, he got got somthing there. Really worthwhile, thanks for the
link.
Cheers!
charles robinson
tradition while being cutting edge at the same time.I wish that other
instrumentalists would get involved, then we would have a full blown
movement on our hands.
It is possible that another newsgroup that is devoted just to this is
called for. Does anyone know if they are posting clips on the two more
general Jazz groups?
Charlie
"copious" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110557588.8...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Five Sharp
sounded real good. I think I just need to get a band together for some fresh
air, that's all. I have been rolling out a clip or two too many myself. But
the importance of clips still stands for me of course ... Especially the
videos. We need more of those. And they are just as easy to manufacture as
MP3 clips almost.
But I'll take a short break form the clipomania from now on ...
#####
"Paul Kirk" <pk...@indiana.edu> schreef in bericht
news:BE57401E.15A2C%pk...@indiana.edu...
Five Sharp
#####
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> schreef in bericht
news:39e451F...@individual.net...
thom_j.
> many productions these days are a synergy of orchestrated clips in a
> manner of speaking..incomplete compositions are electronically transferred
> to "guest artists"..they open these files up in Pro Tools or something
> like that in their home studios...lay down their parts and email back to
> producer for finalization..recently in the ADAT heyday, the tapes were
> sent overnight to players and the parts were added and overnighted
> back..this kinda technological fragmentation offers up many possibilites
> (especially commercail) as it diminishes the value of "live" performance..
Back in the 80s, many times we never saw each other when cutting
a record or some 'cuts' for a record.. This isn't new in the recording
industry at all & many times you never heard the final cut until it was
released so I do not see the problem with the internet as a venue to
do this? Hell if anyone has been in a recording studio within the last
few decades this is nothing new at all... my 2p cheers tee'..
Pt
wrote:
>Back in the 80s, many times we never saw each other when cutting
>a record or some 'cuts' for a record.. This isn't new in the recording
>industry at all & many times you never heard the final cut until it was
>released so I do not see the problem with the internet as a venue to
>do this? Hell if anyone has been in a recording studio within the last
>few decades this is nothing new at all... my 2p cheers tee'..
>
You're right Thom.
I used to lay down bass tracks without ever hearing the melody.
Pt
tomb...@jhu.edu
Five Sharp wrote:
> Sure I would rather do it live but I can't with you guys, can I now?
And if
> you could actually SEE each other through a camcorder, well it would
almost
> be like the real thing.
It wouldn't be that far from a studio date, where
you hear the other guys in your cans, and sometimes
can hardly see them around the baffles.
thom_j.
These questions arose in my noodle too, in readng the posts, & I am
not a clip' poster (& not sure if I ever will be, since my playing ability
has gone into "suck-ass" mode since taken ill and my best was in the
good ole' days of recording in studios & playing live in the 60s - 70s
& - 80s.) Live or not they music is still there, and it doesn't matter if
it is live or not. I feel if any pro-musican wants to make it in y2k and
beyond they better move along with all the new technology they can
get involved in or you'll be left behind. Time & new life ventures will
wait for no'one.. my 2p again.. cheers tee'..
jeff...@yahoo.com
> Yeah Charles, I think you are right. I feel like I've told my stories
> clip-wise. Been doing that for a few years. I want to play more with
real
> people on a steady basis. So not just jams or the occasional gig that
I do
> when called for. Maybe it's time to start a combo under my own name.
>
> Or maybe it's time to study more so I can tell new stories in my
clips.
>
> #####
Dick, I would love to see you record a CD.
bob r
robins...@comcast.net wrote on 3/11/05 12:48 PM:
> That's what I like about it too, the underground aspect. We maintain the
> tradition while being cutting edge at the same time.
That ability to respect tradition while changing is the main reason jazz is
still alive at all. To freeze it is to kill it.
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Kurt Shapiro
I hear the first bar of that Bornman Funk Mix and I'm ready to puke. At
this point, Wes could come back from the dead and play a duet with Charlie
Parker on it and I wouldn't even open it up. Maybe in week or two . . .
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:39doquF...@individual.net...
> I am suffering from both active and passive clip fatigue these days. Heck
> I've been trying to record for a few days but nothing comes out. I can't
> even listen to other people's clips anymore.
>
> Maybe it's the Donna Lee syndrome.
>
> #####
>
>
get...@gmail.com
musician and soloist, but I still mess around with backing tracks as
well. If I recall correctly, Scott Henderson and Gary Willis of Tribal
Tech fame record themselves and email the files to each other when
working on musical compositions together. Also a few years ago I did a
job with Gary Burton (by job I mean in my profession as a DP, not a
musical job). While we were hanging I talked to him about his
collaberations with Chick Corea. Chick would send him disks recorded on
a special piano (I think it was a yamaha) whereby Gary would put the
disk into his piano (I actually saw this) and the piano would
physically play what Chick had played (the piano keys would move like
the old player pianos). Thereby allowing Gary to play with an invisible
Chick while the keys moved. So I have no doubt that we are very close
to having virtual jamsessions on the web. I look forward to playing
with some of you.
Ken Willinger
http://homepage.mac.com/getken/guitar
thom_j.
"Pt" <can.n...@reached.com> wrote in message
news:e2o331d2hh33n54ci...@4ax.com...
& Philly Area at Decca, Columbia, back in the RCA days, with
Sigma Sound, and also "O" so many more that I've forgotten by
now. It was all kinds of fun too, imho.. cheers tee'...
Paul Kirk
Chick would send him disks recorded on
> a special piano (I think it was a yamaha) whereby Gary would put the
> disk into his piano (I actually saw this) and the piano would
> physically play what Chick had played (the piano keys would move like
> the old player pianos). Thereby allowing Gary to play with an invisible
> Chick while the keys moved.
Paul K
William C.
> We are talking about real time playing together on-line Joe. It's the same
> as jamming only not in the same room. Surely you can see the point of
> that????
>
Pay per view.
Private homes.
Every bar with a wide screen plasma/lcd (whichever wins out) can have a Jazz
Geetar Nite.
A virtual night club splashed across wide screen where ever, when ever...
Side pot of Purchase of audio and or video of each occasion....
Just waiting for the next steps in technology. You can start conjuring it
now, however... Idea to Thing.
Pt
People will get sick of watching holographic bands and go where they
have live music.
Pt
William C.
Glad you've decided to join The Multitude, sir.
The procedure is near painless.
At first it can be overwhelming, we do our best to introduce you to your New
Sets of Realities in measured form.
Before you know it, you'll be dialing in with the flick of a thought.
The Wondrous World is now your oyster.
And you won't even be able to tell it from the real thing.
Wait a minute, Pt... why, we already have that....
Saw a butterfly today when musing.
Pt
I was forced to watch those damned movies with my eyes pinned open.
Then there were the milk fountains.
Pt
Joe Finn
Thank you very much. We're glad you liked what you heard.
The kid deserves all the credit. He has however brought a bit of attention
my way. He has become sort of an example of what even a mediocre instructor
[that would be me] can do with a motivated, hard working, focused student.
I'd like all the students who didn't practice with that kind of diligence to
hear those recordings. ...joe
P.S. As you may know we don't believe in "talent", but that's another post.
Thanks again for your kind words.
Joe Finn
> with earphones on physically separated by soundproofing barriers.
It's a huge challenge to capture that live, jam session type energy in the
studio, I agree. It's one of the toughest things. The earphones,
soundproofing barriers and other technology make it difficult. The
additional gear and engineering needed to do this across the Atlantic would
probably make it even harder.
What's that old joke about something being like taking a shower while
wearing a raincoat? 8-) ....joe
Joe Finn
"Paul Kirk" <pk...@indiana.edu> wrote
>
> Pathology is a harsh word, Joe.
That was just a take off on Dick's use of words like "fatigue" and
"syndrome" at the top of the thread. They seemed like medical terms to me in
a way, so I just riffed in that direction. .....joe
Paul Kirk
> "Paul Kirk" <pk...@indiana.edu> wrote
>
>>Pathology is a harsh word, Joe.
>
>
>
> That was just a take off on Dick's use of words like "fatigue" and
> "syndrome" at the top of the thread. They seemed like medical terms to me in
> a way, so I just riffed in that direction. .....joe
>
bookstore today of a recently released lenny breau record (at the
purple onion) : a trio with breau,a bass player, and a "singer-actor"
(see http://www.enter.net/~rainsong/lbreau.html)
the suggestion in the review was that the singer was somewhat of a
comedian/stream of consciousness/ verbal improv type of guy. I havent
heard it, I wonder if
anyone has. I remember really liking a scene in a mike myers movie (so I
married an axe murderer) where Myers plays a beatnik who recites poetry
backed by a jazz trio. It was tongue in cheek, but hip nevertheless. I
dig that stuff, but dont know much about it. Sort of high class high
intellect rap, I suppose. I'd like to do something like that with my
trio (i.e. have a poet sit in), but since I dont know the difference
between good and bad poetry (and my guess is that there is tonn of crap
in poetry, much more than in jazz) and I have reservations about poets
having a jzz sensibility, I'm hesitant. Anybody (younger than say 60
year old!)ever do this?
I heard Suzie Ibarra a few weeks ago with poet Yusef Komunyakaa and it
was pretty cool. Anybody hip to this kind of stuff and able to make
recomendations? Kurt Elling ocasionally improvises and does pretty well.
Paul K
William C.
"Paul Kirk" <no...@noplace.net> wrote in message
news:bKrYd.3427$ZB6....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> comedian/stream of consciousness/ verbal improv type of guy.
> Anybody (younger than say 60
> year old!)ever do this?
It just Is. The very best just comes gushing out from who knows where...
which is its charm in a nutshell.
A couple weeks ago someone said I should consider doing standup... again,
for the umpteenth time I've heard this... and this time from a die-hard fan
of the bluesy boozey party epics that come from club crawl napkin pen
scrawl.
I credit the cork being popped to a gal I met in '84. Real magic click click
verbal banter bouncing off one another.
ott...@hotmail.com
bookstore today of a recently released lenny breau record (at the
purple onion) : a trio with breau,a bass player, and a "singer-actor"
(see http://www.enter.net/~rainsong/lbreau.html)
the suggestion in the review was that the singer was somewhat of a
comedian/stream of consciousness/ verbal improv type of guy. I havent
heard it,.
>I believe that's the one with Canadian Actord Don Franks. He does
things like
Singing the melody of "My Favorite Things" but using the Lyrics, of
"These Foolish Things" and vice-versa, with a Very Young Lenny.
Bg
charles robinson
had the ability to absorb new developments while maintaing it's overall
integrety.
Charlie
"bob r" <Someo...@whatever.com> wrote in message
news:BE575BD1.39D7E%Someo...@whatever.com...
charles robinson
sound at least once a day or things didn't feel right.
Charlie
"Kurt Shapiro" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote in
message news:9_GdnZ3uybA...@comcast.com...
Jack A. Zucker
to it. Instead of reading about theory I'd rather hear it demonstrated.
Apparently, I'm in the minority.
Folks would rather diss clips and find reasons why they're invalid than to
actually participate in making music, however flawed it may be to play along
with a pre-recorded backing.
I think there was some fear-factor and denial going on as well...
Gerry
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> I like the clips myself. Instead of reading about music, I'd rather listen
> to it. Instead of reading about theory I'd rather hear it demonstrated.
> Apparently, I'm in the minority.
You really think so? Amazing. I would think we're in the overwhelming
majority. I'm curious if this other group even exists other than a
straw man for pummeling.
Say, anybody out there rather read about music than listen to it?
--
The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who
are undecided.
-- Casey Stengel
Jack A. Zucker
news:120320051509531641%add...@domain.com.invalid...
> In article <mcednUsGG_y...@adelphia.com>, Jack A. Zucker
> <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
>
>> I like the clips myself. Instead of reading about music, I'd rather
>> listen
>> to it. Instead of reading about theory I'd rather hear it demonstrated.
>> Apparently, I'm in the minority.
>
> You really think so? Amazing. I would think we're in the overwhelming
> majority. I'm curious if this other group even exists other than a
> straw man for pummeling.
>
Hopefully you're right. I just hope I can get a setup someday soon where
it's just as easy to reply to a question with an audio example as it is to
type something in.
Max Leggett
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
>Hopefully you're right. I just hope I can get a setup someday soon where
>it's just as easy to reply to a question with an audio example as it is to
>type something in.
Whatever you use for something like that, use something we
antediluvian 56k scum can download. I can't afford a hi-speed
connection, so when people put clips up that aren't Soundclick or
similar, I pass. I haven't the patience to tie up my computer for 1/2
an hour for something that may or may not be of interest.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"If the gods wanted us to twist our spines about
while we played guitar, they would have given us
rubber bands rather than vertebrae. And then where
would humanity be? Propelling cornflakes box
submarines in some alien bathtub in an ungodly
time dimension where the music of the spheres
consisted of Kenny G."
Spinoza
--------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Kirk
think some participants diss clips as an attempt to elevate their status
in the NG.
Not that you need any validation from me, but there is also a bit of of
"all chops and little else" stuff aimed at you, in my view because
people love to criticize and
saying "he plays too fast" is a way of bragging "my tastes are so
sophisticated that I'm no longer awed by chops". Your speed makes you an
easy target for that kind of criticism, but it usually turns out that
the person criticising you is missing the point IMHO. (and not hearing
the lines)
I do think that jimmy b and joey's examples on Iris have been a good mix
of writing and sound examples. you've done this in the past with musical
ideas as well as with equipment comparisons. I like the idea of this NG
enabling a combination of writing and clips to demonstrate ideas. I
remembe a long time ago Rick Ross had an idea of making a compilation
cassette where everybody submitted their take on a particular standard
(secret love?)
I really liked Bornman's backing track idea. I did notice that most
"entries" were rock oriented, probably because this is the bag most
people who hang out here feel most comfortable in. But I woudl enjoy
hearing a buch of takes on Donna lee, or a bunch of clips with "sheets
of sound page 57" embedded in them, or a bunch of clips with triad
pairs, or Diorio lines, etc. where those intersted in a particular set
of ideas could show how effectively we have it under control. Probably
im in the way minority for that.
On the other hand. we're all busy, and making clips cuts into practice
time....
Paul K
frank
Max and Jack and all clip posters,
That would actually be easy to do - when you've finished your clip just
save it as an "audio thumbnail" as well as full quality and upload it both
ways. Slow connection users could check out the lo-fi thumb and if it was
a keeper or worth the time for a better listen, grab the hi-fi version.
This procedure would add less than one minute to the entire clip creation
process. I took a 2,400,000 byte clip called funk_mix_williams.mp3
created at 128 kbps bitrate and downsampled it to 16 kbps with surprising
preservation of sound quality in the resulting 300,000 byte file.
That's exactly 1/8 the original file size!
Using the popular lame mp3 incoder the CLI statement for that would be:
lame -f -b 16 funk_mix_williams.mp3 funk_mix_williams_lo_fi.mp3
On my ancient 600MHz (well it does have 2 600MHz processors, and it is
running Linux, but still it's OLD) computer it took exactly 21 seconds
to downsample William's clip which was representative of the clip sizes
for this round of postings.
To acquire a 2,400,000 byte file at a typical 56K dial-up download rate of
4Kb/sec would take exactly 10 mins (sorry Max if that challenges your
casual use of the 1/2 hour-to-download figure). Downsampled as an audio
thumbnail it would take 1.25 minutes!
So within your apocryphal 1/2 hour you could sample, and I presume enjoy,
precisely 24 clips!
I think that will buy you and all the other dial-up users some time to
catch up with what now is the majority of online folks in the US, not to
mention Japan and Korea, after The Flood...
Frank
bob r
no...@noplace.net wrote on 3/12/05 7:54 PM:
> I really liked Bornman's backing track idea. I did notice that most
> "entries" were rock oriented, probably because this is the bag most
> people who hang out here feel most comfortable in.
My entry was rock oriented because I didn't feel that trying to play bebop
over a quasi-James Brown backing track would have been appropriate!
Five Sharp
score here and I feel a bit like crossing over these days. I have always
been associated with bebop in this group and I counted more than 30 bebop
videos on my hard drive yesterday.
In fact I find Donna Lee an easy bebop tune to improvise on. The changes are
not that challenging. I already have a Donna Lee video by the way. My Secret
Love I have too. And a Diorio video. A Pass video. Some Parker videos. A
Clifford Brown video etc. etc.
In fact the whole clip idea is old news for me. But I still like them,
though some fatigue has set in.
#####
"Paul Kirk" <no...@noplace.net> schreef in bericht
news:rbMYd.4191$ZB6....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Gerry
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> > You really think so? Amazing. I would think we're in the overwhelming
> > majority. I'm curious if this other group even exists other than a
> > straw man for pummeling.
>
> Hopefully you're right. I just hope I can get a setup someday soon where
> it's just as easy to reply to a question with an audio example as it is to
> type something in.
That would be great. There may be difficulties in all this
clip-and-critique business, but I see it as slow and methodic working
the the process. Just a few years ago such things were impossible.
Then they were just too difficult. And now they approach being easily
done.
Gerry
<no...@noplace.net> wrote:
> Jack: I dont think the majority here dislike clips. As I've ranted, I
> think some participants diss clips as an attempt to elevate their status
> in the NG.
Who cares why either of the two guys (or is it now up to three guys
leadind us all to eminent distruction) disses clips when they do? Not
everybody has to like everything do they? The idea that people only
disrespect music because "they can't do it", out of envy or some other
deep-seeated psychological reason--jeez do you have to have a resume to
simply not care for an approach to music?
The psycho dyad seems to be that everybody is so very very mean by
expressing negative viewpoints about something, and then the next
psycho flip is that nobody is allowed to express their viewpoints
except in some PC ass-kissing. And then we flip back again.
It seems that breathing is the real offense...
--
The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers,
immigrants and aliens, the more you control all the people.
-- Noam Chomsky
Paul Kirk
> In article <rbMYd.4191$ZB6....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, Paul Kirk
> <no...@noplace.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Jack: I dont think the majority here dislike clips. As I've ranted, I
>>think some participants diss clips as an attempt to elevate their status
>>in the NG.
>
>
> Who cares why either of the two guys (or is it now up to three guys
> leadind us all to eminent distruction) disses clips when they do? Not
> everybody has to like everything do they? The idea that people only
> disrespect music because "they can't do it", out of envy or some other
> deep-seeated psychological reason--jeez do you have to have a resume to
> simply not care for an approach to music?
No, on the contrary, taste needs no justification nor resume. But saying
"Clips are beneath me" might make sense if Jim Hall says it. But it
irritates me when the attitude is displayed by those of modest talent.
Making those who post clips feel like novices is a pathetic form of
bravado, akin to name dropping. Those who feel they are the big fish
around here should either participate and show the rest of us, or else
refrain from putting down those who do it and enjoy it.
I know, It's my problem, it's USENET, killfile them, etc. It may be time
to killfile myself.....
Paul K.
Gerry
<no...@noplace.net> wrote:
> > Who cares why either of the two guys (or is it now up to three guys
> > leadind us all to eminent distruction) disses clips when they do?
> > Not everybody has to like everything do they? The idea that people
> > only disrespect music because "they can't do it", out of envy or
> > some other deep-seeated psychological reason--jeez do you have to
> > have a resume to simply not care for an approach to music?
>
> No, on the contrary, taste needs no justification nor resume.
I agree. Expressing your opinion on your taste, though, apparently
demands both, depending on who disagrees with you. We've had many
cut-and-paste discussions of how everybody's opinion is apparently not
equal. Every (purportedly) negative critique is then answered by a
criticism of the critic; they're jealous, they can't play well enough
to have an opinion, etc.
> But saying "Clips are beneath me" might make sense if Jim Hall says
> it. But it irritates me when the attitude is displayed by those of
> modest talent.
Okay, so that opinion apparently needs a resume for you, but it
needn't. We are all free to be irritated by opinions even if they
aren't validated with a name like "Jim Hall". We are then free to
express that opinion, and then free to take an ass-kicking for not
being PC enough about the whole thing. It's seems really quite schitzo
to me, but passion seems to drive a lot of viewpoints.
As an aside, did somebody actually say "clips are beneath me"? I'm just
asking because it seems a number of recent irate responses are to
theoretic or "exemplary" statements, rather than actual ones. "It's
like somebody said 'You're an asshole', to which I respond..." That
sort of thing.
> Making those who post clips feel like novices is a pathetic form of
> bravado, akin to name dropping.
Nobody MAKES us feel anything, we select how to feel. And the critics
now are "like" name-droppers and are manifesting "bravado", but not
likeing a clip? That's fine. But it sounds again as if someone is
being attacked for not having the *right* opinion, that is, the one you
ascribe to.
> Those who feel they are the big fish around here should either
> participate and show the rest of us, or else refrain from putting
> down those who do it and enjoy it.
Okay, I think you're saying if you can't play better than someone who
has posted a clip you can't cricize them. But I thought we were all
free to have an opinion, without credentials...?
> I know, It's my problem, it's USENET, killfile them, etc. It may be
> time to killfile myself.....
--
Jack A. Zucker
> I agree. Expressing your opinion on your taste, though, apparently
> demands both, depending on who disagrees with you. We've had many
> cut-and-paste discussions of how everybody's opinion is apparently not
> equal. Every (purportedly) negative critique is then answered by a
> criticism of the critic; they're jealous, they can't play well enough
> to have an opinion, etc.
Which is then followed by a cut and paste article asserting one's right to
criticize without having to be criticized for your criticism...
Greger Hoel
Saying "you ain't fit to criticise me as you're not as talented as me"
isn't a critique of the critique: It's invalidating somebody else's
right to critique. Not at all analogous to what Gerry's saying.
Why do we hardly ever see anybody defend their playing and their taste
in a reasonable manner? Instead of sombody saying "well, I don't care
what you think cuz I play better than you anyway and you're just
envious blah, blah, blah," why not try to articulate why you played
the way you did and why *you* happen to like it? Charlie's recent
reply to jackasschris in his Giant Steps thread is an example to
follow, IMHO. I think everybody would feel better for it in the end
too.
--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf
To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack A. Zucker
news:u8i931tmj7baaem13...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:12:58 -0500, "Jack A. Zucker"
> <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
>
>>"Gerry" <add...@domain.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:130320051253394841%add...@domain.com.invalid...
>>> I agree. Expressing your opinion on your taste, though, apparently
>>> demands both, depending on who disagrees with you. We've had many
>>> cut-and-paste discussions of how everybody's opinion is apparently not
>>> equal. Every (purportedly) negative critique is then answered by a
>>> criticism of the critic; they're jealous, they can't play well enough
>>> to have an opinion, etc.
>>
>>Which is then followed by a cut and paste article asserting one's right to
>>criticize without having to be criticized for your criticism...
>
> Saying "you ain't fit to criticise me as you're not as talented as me"
Nobody said that Greger. The whole issue is that folks want to make sweeping
generalizations about someone's playing but then they get upset when someone
takes issue with their statement. Nobody's output (whether it's clips or
words) are above criticism.
Gerry
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
I personally think that debating the specific points of the analysis of
music, musical criticism if you will, is always appropriate. Though I
certainly don't agree with a lot of it.
But I don't think criticizing the individual (they're not good enough
to criticize a better player, they're jealous, they're fat, they can't
spell good, etc.) is of any use. If you think that's a facile
argument, well okay.
Gerry
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> Nobody said that Greger. The whole issue is that folks want to make sweeping
> generalizations about someone's playing but then they get upset when someone
> takes issue with their statement. Nobody's output (whether it's clips or
> words) are above criticism.
I think that may well be your issue but it's not mine.
It's true that of the extremely rare occasions when people are negative
or malicious about a local participant's playing the response is almost
always an attack on the critic, not on his arguments. We then discuss
the critic's abilities, rationale, justification, background, etc. I'm
not sure what utility that has, except to squelch negative comments.
If I had a critical comment about a player, I'd never cough it up. We
simply aren't allowed to do that here without an ass-kicking. We're
expected to be totally PC, with no exceptions. I'd have to spend a week
defending the honor of my family back four generations.
Jack A. Zucker
> But I don't think criticizing the individual (they're not good enough
> to criticize a better player, they're jealous, they're fat, they can't
> spell good, etc.) is of any use. If you think that's a facile
> argument, well okay.
All's fair in love and war. You can't have separate rules for the clips
then you have for the words. The same rules need to apply to both.
Why is it ok to say someone's playing is sloppy and that anyone who likes it
is an ass-licker but replying that the poster plays on the level of a high
school jazz student and that he's a wannabe is off-limits? I fail to see the
difference. I think most of this he-said-she-said defense is folks wanting
to be able to criticize others when they can't defend their case.
I didn't see anyone attempting to usurp anyone's right to free speech. It
*IS* interesting to me that when Doug Wamble asserted his right to an
opinion, he was jumped on and almost universally hailed as the anti-christ.
Maybe I just have a bad memory but I don't remember folks sticking up for
his right to express his opinion.
Jack A. Zucker
> If I had a critical comment about a player, I'd never cough it up. We
> simply aren't allowed to do that here without an ass-kicking.
I disagree.
Basically my thoughts are that if *WHAT* you say is in the majority then you
can post freely about anything. However, if you make a statement against
something that the majority believes you will be lambasted (witness Wamble's
comments on a host of subjects)
By and large, I think folks say what they feel. When injustices occur, folks
usually step in and things eventually get righted. Usenet is largely
self-correcting. It's sort of the same principal as to why a wickapedia
works and doesn't just contain a bunch of random bullshit...
Richard Bornman
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote :
> I didn't see anyone attempting to usurp anyone's right to free speech. It
> *IS* interesting to me that when Doug Wamble asserted his right to an
> opinion, he was jumped on and almost universally hailed as the
anti-christ.
hey hey hey, there is only room in this NG for one anti-christ,
and as everyone knows, thats me...
Joey Goldstein
"Jack A. Zucker" wrote:
>
> It
> *IS* interesting to me that when Doug Wamble asserted his right to an
> opinion, he was jumped on and almost universally hailed as the anti-christ.
> Maybe I just have a bad memory but I don't remember folks sticking up for
> his right to express his opinion.
Man, are we going to go over that over and over and over again for all
eternity here?
And let's just say I have a different memory of the affair than you.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Gerry
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> > But I don't think criticizing the individual (they're not good
> > enough to criticize a better player, they're jealous, they're fat,
> > they can't spell good, etc.) is of any use. If you think that's a
> > facile argument, well okay.
>
> All's fair in love and war.
There's no rules? Well that's another approach, but we don't need to
spend much time justifying any of our approaches. Just use that
one-liner right off the bat and we're done. Honestly.
> You can't have separate rules for the clips then you have for the
> words. The same rules need to apply to both.
We have separate rules for everything, though I admit I'm not sure whta
distinction you're makeing between clips and words.
> Why is it ok to say someone's playing is sloppy and that anyone who
> likes it is an ass-licker but replying that the poster plays on the
> level of a high school jazz student and that he's a wannabe is
> off-limits?
I didn't read anybody saying that. Let's assume they did though: it's
a malicious, personally aggressive attack. It's not about music. I
think it's a fair waste of breath and angst to attack the person who
said that. That just escalates the whole thing, of course. I prefer
to point out that the critic's statements are intentionally aimed at
maliciousness, not music criticism.
Jack A. Zucker
You're right but someone did make those statements about someone's playing
on this board which helped fuel a 300 message thread.
Where were you during all this ? :-)
Jaz
Gerry
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > It *IS* interesting to me that when Doug Wamble asserted his right
> > to an opinion, he was jumped on and almost universally hailed as
> > the anti-christ. Maybe I just have a bad memory but I don't
> > remember folks sticking up for his right to express his opinion.
>
> Man, are we going to go over that over and over and over again for
> all eternity here?
>
> And let's just say I have a different memory of the affair than you.
As someone who made the mistake of publicly disagreeing with both Doug
and Jack, I too have different memories about the affair. But
re-inventing history seems to be an advancing modern art.
I'm certainly doing my best not to disagree with them directly again.
Maybe I'm slow, but eventually I learn what's best for me: and being
"right" is certainly not it.
--
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
-- Henry David Thoreau
JP
> hey hey hey, there is only room in this NG for one anti-christ,
> and as everyone knows, thats me...
>
>
Yes, indeed..and i miss him.
This new Richard B is lacking a little harmonic complexity. He's far too
vanilla and crowd pleasing.
:)
Tom Walls
no...@noplace.net says...
> I heard Suzie Ibarra a few weeks ago with poet Yusef Komunyakaa and it
> was pretty cool. Anybody hip to this kind of stuff and able to make
> recomendations? Kurt Elling ocasionally improvises and does pretty well.
>
> Paul K
>
Some legit poets have done this. Kerouac and Ginsberg, for instance.
Steve Lacy did a least one cd of beat poetry with his wife Irene
something-or-other. I thought that the Last Poets were really hip.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Kurt Shapiro
may have given a wrong impression. I LOVE hearing clips from everyone. I
completely agree with you, Jack. One listen is worth a thousand theory
arguments.
I just kinda' OD'd on that one backing track for a while; that, and being
too overloaded with non-rmmgj issues for a week or two.
Perhaps you weren't responding to me specifically, but in case you were, I
don't know how I could have given the impression that I was dissing clips or
saying they were invalid, but if I did, I surely deserve such chiding.
Clips "invalid?" I can't even fathom such nonsense. If someone really
feels that way, I don't even see the point of addressing it. That'd be
their own business. They sure weren't/aren't invalid for me.
"Fear-factor and denial?" Yeah, I'm probably guilty as charged. Ain't no
news there.
Besides, Jack, your chops have probably induced "fear-factor" in just about
any guitarist who has heard you. ;-)
"Kurt Shapiro" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote in
message news:9_GdnZ3uybA...@comcast.com...
> I feel guilty, but I've stopped opening them too.
>
> I hear the first bar of that Bornman Funk Mix and I'm ready to puke. At
> this point, Wes could come back from the dead and play a duet with Charlie
> Parker on it and I wouldn't even open it up. Maybe in week or two . . .
>
>
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:mcednUsGG_y...@adelphia.com...
Kurt Shapiro
about Donna Lee: I find the changes pretty easy to deal with, at least so
far as any tune can be easy for me to deal with. The head's fairly
reasonable too once I found the right weasel fingerings. I'm hardly saying
I'm a master of Donna Lee or any jazz tune for that matter, but Donna Lee
doesn't stand out as being especially difficult.
Of course, put anything at a fast enough tempo and it can become challenging
for me. And now someone'll probably come along and start "defending" Donna
Lee and claiming I said it wasn't a good tune or something. Or they'll ask
for my clips to prove how easy it is. I'm not saying I don't suck; I'm just
saying I don't suck worse on Donna Lee than most other things.
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:39ibf4F...@individual.net...
Tom Walls
kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com says...
> And now someone'll probably come along and start "defending" Donna
> Lee and claiming I said it wasn't a good tune or something. Or they'll ask
> for my clips to prove how easy it is. I'm not saying I don't suck; I'm just
> saying I don't suck worse on Donna Lee than most other things.
>
>
Too true. Always got to cover your ass around here. I'm going to market
a bumper sticker that says "I suck".
--
Tom Walls
the crap guitarist at the Temple of Zeus
Five Sharp
challenge than improvising over the changes.
#####
"Kurt Shapiro" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> schreef
in bericht news:GNydnaGKw_2...@comcast.com...