rootless and quartal voicings
D.Onstenk
TIA
#####
Joey Goldstein
Don't know of any online resources but as far as quartal voicings are
concerned the landscape if fairly finite for guitar players. We are
limited to 3 note, 4 note, 5 note and possibly 6 note voicings.
I won't count 2 note quartal structures as chords. But there are only
two practical possibilities. The perf 4th and the aug 4th. Dim 4ths
sound too much like maj 3rds and will usually tend to destroy any
quartal texture that has already been established. We use quartal
voicings, of course, as a contrast to the more normal tertian sounds of
tonal music so if we include tertian sounding intervals we risk
destroying the quartal texture.
So with 3 note voicings there are only 3 possibilities:
P4 P4, #4 P4, and P4 #4.
Of course the inversions or permutations of these chords also have a
quartal vibe to them:
C F Bb becomes F Bb C and Bb C F.
C F# B becomes F# B C and B C F#.
C F B becomes F B C and B C F.
And there is alos the possibility of quartal spread triads:
C Bb F, F C Bb, Bb F C.
C B F#, F# C B, B F# C.
C B F, F C B, B F C.
With 4 note chords the possibilities increase somewhat and some of the
permutations may not be playable on the guitar. Structures with 2
*consecutive* aug 4ths will result in octave doubles, so they are not
included here.
C F Bb Eb, Eb Bb C F, F C Eb Bb, Bb Eb F C.
C F Bb E, etc.
C F B E, etc.
C F# B E, etc.
C F# B E#, etc.
5 note quartal structures begin to stretch the limits of what is
practical on the guitar:
C F Bb Eb Ab, etc.
C F Bb Eb A, etc.
C F Bb E A, etc.
C F B E A, etc.
C F# B E A, etc.
C F# B E# A#, etc.
C F B E A#, etc.
I'll leave the 6 note voicings up to you.
There is this business about harmonizing scales in 4ths too but the only
scale that will not necessitate a dim 4th at some point is the diatonic
scale, or the major scale.
For example if we try to harmonize the C mel min scale in quartal triads:
the triad built on F (F B Eb) has a dim 4th between B and Eb.
the triad built in B (B Eb A) has a dim 4th between B and Eb.
These two triads, if used insensitively, will change any quartal texture
that has been established.
But if heard within a sequence of quartal chords that are clearly
outlining the C mel min scale they may just be heard as what they are,
quartal voicings of the C mal min scale.
The same dim 4th betwen B and Eb will be active in any quartal
harmonizations of the C harm min and harm major scales.
The diminished scale contains lots of quartal voicings too but they are
not scale-wise 4ths.
For example the C(h-w) dim scale contains the following quartal triads:
Db G C, Db Gb C, E A# Eb, E A Eb, G C# F#, G C F#, Bb E A, Bb Eb A
But as far as scale steps are concerned Db to G is a scale-wise 5th
Db Eb E F# G
1 2 3 4 5
etc.
If we tried to harmonize this scale in 4ths we'd get this:
C E A, Db Gb Bb, Eb G C, E A C#, etc.
But having said all that we as jazz players usually use quartal voicings
within the context of a standard jazz chord tonal progressions which are
based on tertian harmony. We use these quartal chords as *voicings of*
more typical tertian chords. In this type of harmonic setting quite
often a 3rd will be included in a voicing anyway. The most common
example of this is the voicings used on Miles' tune So What which have a
maj 3rd stuck on top of a quartal stack.
Also, it should also be noted that once we are at the 4 note level and
beyond that 3rds start appearing anyway, in the form of 10ths.
I.e. In the chord C F Bb Eb there is a min 10th formed by C and Eb.
So the elimination of 3rds entirely is not really possiible or
practical. Still though, a passage of *mostly quartal* sounds has it's
own texture to be sure.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Jack Zucker
My book has an extensive section on 4th and 5th chord voicings and
inversions.
[/shameless plug]
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:40C5FDED...@nowhere.net...
D.Onstenk
#####
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> schreef in bericht
news:40C5FDED...@nowhere.net...
Jurupari
>
>TIA
>
>#####
I don't know about online, but a great way to expand your quartal voicings is
to work with the major no 4th scale. The remaining tones outline a major 13th
chord, and the opportunities for quartal quintal voicings in combination with
seconds is very high in every location. Just look for adjacent tones on each
string, and stuff a whole step above that. Very fertile territory.
Moreover, any of the chords or clusters made are interchangeable and will sub
for major minor or dominant chords so you can play 4ths in places that may not
have occurred to you.
Move them up half a step or a fifth above that, and you go into quartals
quintals and twotles as subs for altered upper structure of the 5dom7 chord.
Displace them accordingly and you can use them the same way on secondary
dominants.
To get them together, just look at the caged fingerings and lift the 4ths from
the major scale.
You don' need no steenking online resources! :o)
Have fun!
Clif
D.Onstenk
don't know what they mean exactly ... At least I understood what Jack was
talking about ....:)
#####
"Jurupari" <juru...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20040608160111...@mb-m23.aol.com...
Jurupari
>don't know what they mean exactly
Here are some nuts and bolts then - forms for subbing for any chord in G major
with a sort of view toward quartal voicing 6th string to first. Just avoid the
note C and the accidentals of G: Play as many or as few of the notes as you
want.
222232 or 222233 352232 5552xx 555455 577755 5744xx 777777 777787
7774xx 77775x 55577x 79997x x9991010 1212121210
and on and on - there are tons - that's just a few, and they will all sub for
any diatonic chord chord in G, (Gmaj7 Am7 Bm7 Cmaj7 D7 Em7 or F#m7b5) or if you
move them up half a step, they will sub for D7alt since they have all the upper
structure tones.
Same if you did it in Eb. If you match the tones to the upper structure of D7,
you'll see why - same tones.
So why's that hard to understand? :o)
Clif
D.Onstenk
#####
"Jurupari" <juru...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20040608164137...@mb-m23.aol.com...
Jurupari
The five tones that are NOT in the major scale - in G, F G# A# C# D#.
Clif
Max Leggett
>>Aha ... it's dawning. Thanks. What are accidentals?
>
>The five tones that are NOT in the major scale - in G, F G# A# C# D#.
They're called accidentals cuz they're what I usually accidentally
hit.
=======================================
Jailhouse Baby Parker
the world's finest living Max Leggett-style guitarist
hepkatre...@hotmail.com is a spam trap
m le gg e tt doing business with sprint in CAnada
=======================================
DButler508
really good one. It's basically about guide tones, and then quartal and more
modern sounds.
-Jon
Gerry
<juru...@aol.com> wrote:
There are many approaches to this. I suggest playing major scales in
parallel fourths. Just play the fourth interval that applies as you
work your way up and down the scale. Then add another fourth on top of
that fourth. Then add another.
Bingo.
--
First they gerrymander us into one-party fiefs. Then they tell us they only
care about the swing districts. Then they complain about voter apathy.
-- Gail Collins
Jack Zucker
stacked 4ths on top of each note in the scale with no accidentals. Pick up
your guitar and play it. Simple.
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
"Gerry" <222...@spam.really.sucks> wrote in message
news:080620041443002494%222...@spam.really.sucks...
Bill
> Any on-line resources that are worth checking out?
>
> TIA
>
> #####
Check out this site for some Quartal Chord info:
<http://home1.gte.net/furlott/index.htm>
Bg
Max Leggett
wrote:
>This isn't an online resource, but Steve Khan's book "Chordal Khancepts" is a
>really good one. It's basically about guide tones, and then quartal and more
>modern sounds.
I'll second that - Khan's book is a great comping resource.
Joey Goldstein
"D.Onstenk" wrote:
>
> Heck but it surely ain't that easy. I read your post and Joey's and I still
> don't know what they mean exactly ... At least I understood what Jack was
> talking about ....:)
I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have Dick.
Of course the thing I didn't get into is how to use them. Maybe later.
Kurt Shapiro
don't sound right to me. OTOH, major third on top is fine.
"Gerry" <222...@spam.really.sucks> wrote in message
news:080620041443002494%222...@spam.really.sucks...
Mark Smart
Too cool, Bill. About 10 years ago I started working out shapes for
these 4-note quartal chords, and I drew diagrams that look almost
identical to those on your site. Dots with lines connecting between.
Maybe I should scan and post those. At the time, I was under the
influence of George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept, so I drew them
out for the Lydian, Lydian Augmented, and Lydian Diminished scales.
The dots were colored according to which scale tone of Lydian they
represented. Red=I Orange=II, etc. Looks like the advanced version of
Twister.
Hmm..I've been learning PHP so I can put interactive Chapman Stick
lessons on my site. These quartal guitar diagrams would be another
great application of PHP graphics. Someday when I have time...
I use those chords on the top four strings all the time (still haven't
learned the other sets very well). Once you get familiar with where
the roots of the different chord types are relative to the shapes, you
can use them to create really cool comping. Like here's one of my
favorites for the last 8 bars of Stella by Starlight (tablature):
Em7b5 A7alt
(E Locrian) (A Super Locrian)
E+--10--8--12--10--8---6---9---8---
B+--10-----11------8-------10------
G+--9------10------6-------8-------
D+--8------10------7-------8-------
A+---------------------------------
E+---------------------------------
Repeat it down 2 frets for Dm7b5 G7alt
Repeat it down 2 more frets for Cm7b5 F7alt
End on:
Bmaj Bbmaj
E+--2----1--
B+--2----1--
G+--1----0--
D+--1----0--
A+----------
E+----------
Mark Smart
www.marksmart.net
Morey Richman
"Bill" <ott...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d9bff61f.04060...@posting.google.com...
There's a pretty good new book I just bought from Mel Bay written by Tom
Floyd called "Quartal Harmony & Voicings For Guitar" that explains how to
arrive at the voicings and how to use them.
Chess Player
> Aha ... it's dawning. Thanks. What are accidentals?
>
> #####
Accidentals are really an oxymoron. I just know they put them in there on
purpose. Accident my ass!
Jack Zucker
"Kurt Shapiro" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote in
message news:brWdnRkWJ8L...@comcast.com...
> I tend to shy away from quartal voicings with a tritone on top; they just
> don't sound right to me. OTOH, major third on top is fine.
>
Listen to McCoy Tyner on Coltrane's Cresence and you'll change your mind.
JS Groot
>
> Any on-line resources that are worth checking out?
Have a look at this cheap DVD + 4 page booklet. It
introduces quartal voicings, including their use:
http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=20366DP
Jos Groot
james seaberry
And try this:
http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=241
james seaberry
And try this:
http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=241
Mark Smart
I scanned and posted my psychedelic quartal diagrams last night, if anyone is
interested:
<http://www.marksmart.net/instruments/guitar/quartal/fournote.html>
Mark Smart
www.marksmart.net
Bill
Just to be clear Mark, that's not my Website, but Rod Furlott's that I happened
on a while ago, and bookmarked. I definitely can't take credit.
Bill
Max Smith
Arkin, that has useful info on quartal harmony, among other things. It's
out of print, but you may be able to find it online somewhere.
I first stumbled on quartal voicings and rootless voicings transcribing
Jim Hall stuff - I love how each rootless "grip" has so many
applications over a variety of chord types when they are freed of a root
on the 5th or 6th string.
D.Onstenk wrote:
> Any on-line resources that are worth checking out?
>
> TIA
>
> #####
>
>
--
I'm Max Smith and I approve this message.
"When all you have is a hammer, you get pretty damn good at driving nails."
Kurt Shapiro
Thanks,
"Jack Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
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Kurt Shapiro
piano? I don't know if it's intonation or what.
I mean, to me, a quartal triad (three notes stacked in 4ths) sounds just way
freakin' cool as all hell on piano.
On the other hand, the exact same notes in the exact same voicing can often
sound stupid and obnoxious on guitar; especially the way it blends with
other instruments.
Maybe it's just me; wouldn't be the first time.
"Jack Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:VpidndgJb9P...@adelphia.com...
>
Max Smith
I think quartal voicings sound great on either instrument (though no
more the same as anything else played on the two instruments), in the
right context.
--
Bill
Not only that but I LIKE what you posted here and WILL try it, very nice.
Bill
D.Onstenk
#####
"D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> schreef in bericht
news:2im89fF...@uni-berlin.de...
Kurt Shapiro
a little differently. I'm afraid everyone's now going to pigeonhole me as
"anti-fourths" or something.
"Max Smith" <sixstr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:QGIxc.5386$sC5....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
Max Leggett
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
>Notice my use of the word "often." To my ear, they just need to be treated
>a little differently. I'm afraid everyone's now going to pigeonhole me as
>"anti-fourths" or something.
Nah, just as a nahtsea pedalist.
Kurt Shapiro
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40c7788a...@News.sprint.ca...
Max Leggett
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
>What's a "pedalist?"
At one time this ng was infested by a troll who called anyone who
disagreed with him a Nazi, so my yuk yuk is calling anyone who
disagrees with me a paederast; hence, nahtsea pedalist. It's a real
thigh slapper, I know. I was taking a shot at anyone who would call
you 'anti fourths'.
Mark Smart
> Bill
Thanks. Here's another one I worked out a couple of months ago, the
head from Footprints harmonized in three-note quartal chords. Kind of
like the harmonies Wayne plays on "Miles Smiles" but with yet another
note added below.
C Dorian
+-6--6--6-+-6--8----+-------------+--------+--+--+--+--+
+-6--6--6-+-6--8-10-+-11-10--8--6-+--------+--+--+--+--+
+-5--5--5-+-5--7--8-+-10--8--7--5-+-7--5---+--+--+--+--+
+---------+-------8-+-10--8--7--5-+-7--5---+--+--+--+--+
+---------+---------+-------------+-6--5---+--+--+--+--+
+---------+---------+-------------+--------+--+--+--+--+
F C
Dorian Dorian
+-6--6--6-+-6--8-10-+-11-10--8--6-+------+-6----------+------+--+--+
+-6--6--6-+-6--8--9-+-11--9--8--6-+-8--6-+-6-10--8--6-+------+--+--+
+-5--5--5-+-5--7--8-+-10--8--7--5-+-7--5-+-5--8--7--5-+-7--5-+--+--+
+---------+---------+-------------+-6--5-+----8--7--5-+-7--5-+--+--+
+---------+---------+-------------+------+------------+-6--5-+--+--+
+---------+---------+-------------+------+------------+------+--+--+
F# F Lydian E Super A Super C
Locrian Dominant Locrian Locrian Dorian
+----------+----10----+-6-----+----8-------+-------+--+--+--+
+-12-12-12-+-12-10--8-+-6-----+-8--8--8--7-+-6-----+--+--+--+
+-11-11-11-+-10--8--7-+-5-----+-6--6--6--6-+-5-----+--+--+--+
+-10-10-10-+-10-----7-+-------+-7-----7--6-+-5-----+--+--+--+
+----------+----------+-------+------------+-------+--+--+--+
+----------+----------+-------+------------+-------+--+--+--+
Mark Smart
www.marksmart.net
Kurt Shapiro
Or my complete disregard for functional harmony.
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Kurt Shapiro
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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