Pratice routines/programs
Fredrik Falbach
I'm a 18 year old jazz student from Norway and I've been playing jazz
for about 3 years. While reading a copy of Mark Levins: "The jazz theory
book" I read that every good jazz player had developed a pratice routine.
After reading this NG I thought that some of you jazz cats might assist me
by e-mailing me some of your routines. I appreciate any contribution that
you might have so please don't hesitate to mail whatever information you
might have on pratice routines. Thanks in advance.
Reagards from
Fredrik Falbach
HvincentM
periodically. We have developed a list of songs. Actually, they were already
playing the tunes when I joined them. It's about 100 songs. I'm still learning
them actually. Songs include How High the Moon, Now's the Time, Polka Dots and
Moonbeams, Fly me to the Moon,C Jam, Satin Doll, .....
But, I learn better from a concrete examples. Let's say we practice and play
every 8 to 10 weeks. In the meantime, the challenge for me is to find chord
subsitutions and soloing approaches to improve on the last outing. This has
helped me immensely because now I go through all the books that I have with a
goal in mind.
Before I started playing with these guys, I purchased all these guitar method
books and I took instructions for 2 1/2 years or so. This was beneficial,
because it helped with foundation and helped me remember the things and more
from my lessons as a kid.
My favorite book for chord substitutions is Sal Salvador's book. Right now I'm
also working on Steve Kahn's chord concepts book. In addition, I'm using the
Charlie Parker's Omni Book. I refer to Bob Patterson's book to go through
exercises from time to time. And, I have collected some John Coltrane
transcriptions that I'm into right now.
But, I use these books in relation to a song that I'm working on. For example,
I might scan the Parker book for chord changes similar to the ones in a song
that I'm working on and work on his phrasing for that passage to get some ideas
on how to negotiate the changes. It gives me a better feel for things to do
this. I have found that in real time when I am playing in public bits and
pieces of this stuff begins to come out in my playing, although it never comes
out note for note as written. I hear something else.
Other times, I work on chord substitutions or triads and chord patterns. Other
times, I work on just the melodies of the songs to refresh my memory.
I don't know if I rambled too much or if this is helpful to you. But, this is
loosely what I do. In some respects, it may sound disorganized, but what pulls
it all together is improving the songs that we are going to play. I feel like I
have made good progress following this format.
I also listen to jazz for roughly two hours a day, becasue while driving to and
from work I keep the radio on a jazz station.
With my work schedule, my practice time varies. It can be as little as 45
minutes and up to 2 or 3 hours depending on the day. But I average slightly
over an hour of actual "guitar in hand" practice. Sometimes, I just read about
guitar and how others approach the instrument in magazines and books. This is
helpful too.
I always feel like "there's so much to do, and so little time" because I have
not figured out block chords and I don't really no all my triads, or Freddy
Green 3 and 4 note chords, I have not figure out intervals and guide tones and
related these ideas to my playing. I can't do octaves yet. I approach solos
from a horzontal -key center approach, but I feel I should be more adept at the
vertical approach. I could go on and on.
But, I'm having fun and I think I'm improving.
I tend to think that all of these activities contribute to what eventually
comes out.
Still Learning,
Vince
Joey Goldstein
> But, I use these books in relation to a song that I'm working on.
What it is, what it is!
In jazz, if you're not working on repertoire, chances are you're not working
on anything that's going to help you play jazz any better. Fit your technical
exercises etc. around the tunes you're working on.
Technique for technique's sake has little place in jazz study (except perhaps
after you already play pretty well).
Learn the melody ... to a tune.
Learn the chords ... from a tune.
Learn the scales ... for a tune's changes.
Learn the groove ... for a tune.
Lift a solo ... from a tune.
Learn to improvise your own melodies ... on a tune.
Learn to comp ... on a tune.
Write a tune and then .... etc.
IMHO
--
Joey Goldstein
Jazz Guitarist/Composer/Bandleader/Teacher
Check out my homepage at:
http://home.ican.net/~joegold/
Reply To: joegoldATicanDOTnet
Tim Berens
Fredrik:
You also should consider studying classical guitar with a skilled
teacher. The technique of guitar playing has evolved over several
hundred years. You'll find that a good classical guitar teacher can
help your technique (and thus your jazz playing) immensely.
You might also find that your ears grow a bit.
Tim Berens
Clay Moore
Tim,
I've seen you post this opinion a couple of times. I love classical
guitar, but I see no direct advantage in studying it to learn jazz. Yes,
I've taken some classical lessons, but mostly I've learned from studying
the examples of the finest jazz players. I can only think of a few truly
great jazz players who've studied classical guitar-- none of my main
influences, BTW-- although that is changing because of the sheer number
of people who play the guitar worldwide.
--
Clay Moore
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and
he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
Richard Stern
: working on anything that's going to help you play jazz any better. Fit
: your technical exercises etc. around the tunes you're working on.
: Technique for technique's sake has little place in jazz study (except
: perhaps after you already play pretty well).
: Learn the melody ... to a tune.
: Learn the chords ... from a tune.
: Learn the scales ... for a tune's changes.
: Learn the groove ... for a tune.
: Lift a solo ... from a tune.
: Learn to improvise your own melodies ... on a tune.
: Learn to comp ... on a tune.
Ok, so now for the hard part...
How about a list of 5-10 "must know" standards, as a place for us total
beginners to get started.
What are some of the first jazz tunes that you serious guys learned when
you were just starting out?
Could you experienced players try to make a short list of what you would
consider "relatively easy" standards (are there any??) and post it?
Something to get us beginners going.
Thanks a lot!
Richard Stern
rst...@col.hp.com
HvincentM
>beginners to get started.
>
>
I'm not that far in front of you (if I am in front of you) so I think I can
make a few suggestions.
Here's a good list. Learn the melodies and chord changes, then start trying to
figure out substitutions and solos and see where it takes you
1) A train
2) Blue Bossa
3) One Note Samba
4) In a Mello Tone
5) Satin Doll
6) Polkadots and Moonbeams
7) Don't Get Around Much Anymore
8) Rythm Changes
9) Moment Notice (Nice 2-5-1 exercise)
10) Any jazz Blues progression
See ya,
Still learning
Vince
Joey Goldstein
> How about a list of 5-10 "must know" standards, as a place for us total
> beginners to get started.
>
> What are some of the first jazz tunes that you serious guys learned when
> you were just starting out?
> Could you experienced players try to make a short list of what you would
> consider "relatively easy" standards (are there any??) and post it?
>
> Something to get us beginners going.
To get started try these:
1. Little Sunflower - Freddie Hubbard (learn about form and chord scales and
Latin rhythms)
2. Blue Monk - Thelonious Monk (simple blues with a nice chromatic line)
3. Freddie The Freeloader - Miles Davis (simple blues with a twist)
4. Green Mountains - Steve Swallow or Recordame - Joe Henderson or Maiden
Voyage - Herbie Hancock or Blue Bossa - Kenny Dorham (These particular tunes
help train you to switch chord scales at strategic metrical locations within
the progression. They have nice melodies too.)
5. Billie's Bounce or Now's the Time or any tune with typical jazz-blues
changes. (The Blues is the most important thing to learn to play, period!)
6. Footprints or Mr. PC or Equinox (all minor blues progressions)
Once you feel OK about the easy tunes here's my list of essential tunes that
cover the most widely used progressions in jazz:
1. any (or better yet several) jazz-blues changes type tune(s) (see above)
Further examples: Au Privave, Straight No Chaser.
2. any "Rhythm Tune" (ie. based on the changes to I Got Rhythm by Gershwin)
Sonny Rollins' "Oleo" is a good one to start.
3. any "back-cycle" type blues progression tune: Eg. Blues For Alice,
Confirmation.
4. All The Things You Are - Kern
5. Stella By Starlight - Victor Young
6. Giant Steps - Coltrane
Then learn some of the technically demanding Charlie Parker tunes and solos to
develop your chops and sense of jazz phrasing.
IMHO of course.
Clay Moore
>
> Richard Stern wrote:
>
> > How about a list of 5-10 "must know" standards, as a place for us total
> > beginners to get started.
> >
> > What are some of the first jazz tunes that you serious guys learned when
> > you were just starting out?
>
> > Could you experienced players try to make a short list of what you would
> > consider "relatively easy" standards (are there any??) and post it?
> >
> > Something to get us beginners going.
>
> To get started try these:
<snip>
Joey, Joey, did you miss the opening line of his post? Monk tunes,
Parker tunes, "Giant Steps?" These are not easy tunes by any stretch.
Even your choice of "Little Sunflower" and some of the other modal tunes
ain't such a good idea, because these tunes have forms that are
sometimes tricky to remember. Matter of fact, I hate playing "Sunflower"
at sessions 'cause someone always screws the form up. Then, tunes like
"All The Things You Are" and "Stella" have many, many changes that are
likely to give a jazz novice a migraine. Let's scale it back a bit, eh?
How about:
1. Sugar
2. Blue Bossa
3. Satin Doll
4. Take The A Train
5. In A Mellowtone
6. All Of Me
7. a riff blues like "Billie's Bounce" or "Sonnymoon For Two"
8. EASY rhythm changes head such as "Lester Leaps In," "The
Flintstones," or how about "I've got Rhythm?"
9. Autumn Leaves
10. a bossa, such as "Girl From Ipanema" or "Corcovado"
Probably the tune I'd pick first off this list is "Autumn Leaves." It's
basically in one key the whole time, so you can start improvising right
away without having to know a great deal about changes. The two blues I
picked are obvious easy choices too, but it's easy to just play blues
licks, which is where a lot of guitar players are already stuck who come
to jazz from a rock or blues background. "Blue Bossa" is perhaps the
next simplest tune, changing from C minor to Db major and then back to C
minor, so you get to learn a bit about changing key centers without
jumping headfirst into a tune like "Stella." You'll notice also that
over half of the tunes I picked here are vocal tunes, common in many
types of gig and jam situations. I know a lot of you more experienced
players might look at this list and think these tunes are kind of
boring, but think back to when you started playing jazz. "Satin Doll"
and "Girl From Ipanema" were probably the first ones I learned, after
some blues changes.
Richard,
Another good tip for learning tunes is to get some of the Ella
Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra records of big bands playing standards, and
learn to sing them. You'll get the tunes inside you in a very natural
way.
Willie K Yee MD
Blues
I Got Rhythm
Autumn Leaves
All the Things You Are
Green Dolphin Street
How High the Moon
Oh! Lady Be Good
All Blues
Joy Spring
Bye Bye Blackbird
Of course everyone els will have a different list. By
the time this thread is dead, you will have about 6000
essential jazz tunes.
> Ok, so now for the hard part...
>
Willie K Yee MD
> How about a list of 5-10 "must know" standards, as a place for us total
> beginners to get started.
>
Here is somebody else's list for an international perspective:
Here in Montpeller - France, we play quite often
Ornitology
Scrapple from the Apple
Have you met Miss Jones
So What or Impressions
How Insensitive
Once I Loved
Stolen Moments
Softly as in a Morning Sunrise
Whisper Not
Alone Together
A Night in Tunisia
Loverman
Blues mainly in F or in Bb, and 3/4 (6/8) Blues like Footprints or All
Blues, bu not really in "all keys"
and of course those you mentioned except (I dont know why?) Bye Bye
Blackbird and You Stepped Out Of A Dream.
Marc Sabatella
>Even your choice of "Little Sunflower" and some of the other modal tunes
>ain't such a good idea, because these tunes have forms that are
>sometimes tricky to remember. Matter of fact, I hate playing "Sunflower"
>at sessions 'cause someone always screws the form up.
I even heard Freddie's band screw this up when he was visiting Denver a
few years ago. Not sure who to blame it on, though, because I wasn't
sure of the form myself. All I know is that they clearly reached the
bridge at different times, at several points during the performance.
However, for practice purposes, that hardly matters. Play the A-section
as long as you want, and get to the bridge when you feel like it.
working on one-chord vamps is perhaps the best way to learn to get past
this whole hang-up people have about what to actually do with any given
scale they've been told to "play" over a given chord or progression.
You learn about melodicism and phrasing, and can also deal with voicing
and self-accompaniment techniques. After simply working on the vamp for
a while, then it makes sense to put it in th context of a tune, and
something like "Sunflower" (or "So What", or whatever) is a natural
choice.
After dealing with one-chord vamp (and dorian seems easiest, for some
reason), then I suggest I-V vamps, to learn to deal with the most
fundamental aspect of harmony (the dominant to tonic resolution). And
then find some silly funk tune or something like that to exploit this
with.
Next I'd move to mostly diatonic tunes that use more chords - something
like Autumn Leaves, or a blues.
I guess the specific tunes don't matter so much to me as the rationale
for choosing them and they way you work through them.
>I know a lot of you more experienced
>players might look at this list and think these tunes are kind of
>boring, but think back to when you started playing jazz. "Satin Doll"
>and "Girl From Ipanema" were probably the first ones I learned, after
>some blues changes.
Satin Doll was one for me; not so much Ipanema. However, I now *hate*
playing both of these tunes (although I'm starting to warm to Ipanema,
now that I do it with a vocalist who can sing it in Portuguese). So I
do have qualms about recommending them to beginners. Nothing worse that
showing up a jam session, all proud of the two tunes you can play, then
hearning the groans from the house band when you call something they
hate. On the other hand, you really can't tell what tunes those will
be. I happen to enjoy Autumn Leaves a lot, and don't mind playing it at
jam sessions at all. But I'm sure it produces the same reaction in some
people that Satin Doll does for me. And conversely, there are probably
people who can stomach Satin Doll. It's tricky, because you need to
learn tunes that you can be sure everyone else knows, in order to be
able to sit in at jam sessions, but on the other hand, the tunes that
everyone knows are precisely the ones that many of them are sick of.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Check out my latest CD, "Second Course"
Available on Cadence Jazz Records
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Bob Valentine
Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Tim Berens wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:01:09 +0200, "Fredrik Falbach"
>> <fal...@online.no> wrote:
>>
>> Fredrik:
>>
>> You also should consider studying classical guitar with a skilled
>> teacher. The technique of guitar playing has evolved over several
>> hundred years. You'll find that a good classical guitar teacher can
>> help your technique (and thus your jazz playing) immensely.
>>
>
>Tim,
>
>I've seen you post this opinion a couple of times. I love classical
>guitar, but I see no direct advantage in studying it to learn jazz. Yes,
>I've taken some classical lessons, but mostly I've learned from studying
>
>
I studied classical guitar for a few years during my formative stages. I
credit my good fretting hand, and good "ergonomics" while playing to the
excellent instuctor I had. For pure, physical, technique, I think the
classical guys know how to hold and play a guitar, and you can later take
that knowledge to whatever style you eventually play (unless you have to
stand and play a solidbody hanging near your knees).
On the other hand, at the point I did this, I could improvise, play in
a band, etc...
Not that any of this answered the posters question.
Bob Valentine
TomLippinc
>
>I've seen you post this opinion a couple of times. I love classical
>guitar, but I see no direct advantage in studying it to learn jazz. Yes,
>I've taken some classical lessons, but mostly I've learned from studying
>great jazz players who've studied classical guitar-- none of my main
>influences, BTW-- although that is changing because of the sheer number
>of people who play the guitar worldwide.
>
>--
>Clay Moore
When I was at North Texas State the classical department had quite a bit of
control over the cirriculum for music students, and one of the results was that
there were no jazz private lessons offered, only classical, which every music
major had to take, regardless of specific field. At the time many jazz
students, myself included, thought that this was a pretty ridiculous rule. I
thought that the technique used on classical guitar was so different from what
most "jazz" guitarists used that it was practically like studying two different
instruments at the same time. Fortunately for me, I'd been interested in both
jazz and classical guitar since high school, and I ended up with a really good
teacher, so I wasn't too terribly outraged. I did sometimes feel like the time
I spent practising classical "took away" from jazz practice time. On the other
hand, I once heard an interview with Bill Evans in which he expressed the view
that all musicians, jazz or otherwise, should spend time studying classical
music on their instrument to learn basic techniques, musicality, discipline,
ect. Quite a few accomplished jazz pianists, upright bassists, and brass
players I've talked to have expressed similar views. In the last few years
I've had a renewed interest in classical guitar, and I've begun incorporating a
lot of classical technique to my jazz and other styles of guitar playing, and
I'm now quite thankful for all that time I (sometimes begrudgingly) spent
practising classical guitar when I was younger. I don't necessarily agree that
everyone interested in jazz guitar should seek classical lessons, but I also
don't think it could hurt. What I do think is that any guitarist, or any
musician, could benefit from studying some aspects of classical music. If you
are a player who uses (or is interested in using) your fingers, or a
combination of pick and fingers as a playing technique, in that case I'd say
there are many benefits to be gained from studying classical guitar techniques.
It might even be worth it to suffer through a few classical lessons to learn
some basic principles of technique. And by the way, if you think Wes and Pat
Martino, or even Bill Frisell and Ben Monder, or even Keith Jarrett and Herbie
Hancock play some harmonically, rhythmically, and melodically hip stuff, you
should check out some of the stuff that composers like Stravinsky, Debussy,
Schoenberg, Berg, Ives, Copeland, Stockhausen and others have written.
Tom Lippincott
Marc Sabatella
>On the other
>hand, I once heard an interview with Bill Evans in which he expressed the view
>that all musicians, jazz or otherwise, should spend time studying classical
>music on their instrument to learn basic techniques, musicality, discipline,
>ect. Quite a few accomplished jazz pianists, upright bassists, and brass
>players I've talked to have expressed similar views.
On most instruments, the standard excuse to get classical training is
to improve technique. Being forced to play a whole slew of notes
exactly as written forces you to deal with issues you may never
encounter if you just play what comes naturally to you.
I think the value of learning classical music in general can go beyond
that - you can learn a few new things about form, about voice leading,
and so forth. Not sure how obvious or useful this would be on guitar.
On piano, though, there is immense value in playing through the
classical literature, as you learn different approaches for
self-accompaniment that go way beyond the small handful of tricks most
jazz pianists rely on (eg, walking bass line or left hand chord
voicings).
Stephen Christopher
Joey Goldstein (nos...@ican.net) writes:
> HvincentM wrote:
>
>> But, I use these books in relation to a song that I'm working on.
>
> What it is, what it is!
>
> on anything that's going to help you play jazz any better. Fit your technical
> exercises etc. around the tunes you're working on.
>
> Technique for technique's sake has little place in jazz study (except perhaps
> after you already play pretty well).
>
> Learn the melody ... to a tune.
> Learn the chords ... from a tune.
> Learn the scales ... for a tune's changes.
> Learn the groove ... for a tune.
> Lift a solo ... from a tune.
> Learn to improvise your own melodies ... on a tune.
> Learn to comp ... on a tune.
>
>
> IMHO
>
> Joey Goldstein
> Jazz Guitarist/Composer/Bandleader/Teacher
> Check out my homepage at:
> http://home.ican.net/~joegold/
>
> Reply To: joegoldATicanDOTnet
...and then learn it in all 12 keys.
Stephen Christopher
Clay Moore
>
> Satin Doll was one for me; not so much Ipanema. However, I now *hate*
> playing both of these tunes (although I'm starting to warm to Ipanema,
> now that I do it with a vocalist who can sing it in Portuguese). So I
> do have qualms about recommending them to beginners. Nothing worse that
> showing up a jam session, all proud of the two tunes you can play, then
> hearning the groans from the house band when you call something they
> hate. On the other hand, you really can't tell what tunes those will
> be. I happen to enjoy Autumn Leaves a lot, and don't mind playing it at
> jam sessions at all. But I'm sure it produces the same reaction in some
> people that Satin Doll does for me. And conversely, there are probably
> people who can stomach Satin Doll. It's tricky, because you need to
> learn tunes that you can be sure everyone else knows, in order to be
> able to sit in at jam sessions, but on the other hand, the tunes that
> everyone knows are precisely the ones that many of them are sick of.
Well, this is a problem as you mention. I would probably err on the side
of easier-but-very-commonly-played though, rather than tunes that fewer
people are likely to know. You may get groans from calling an oft played
tune, but most experienced players are not going to be that thrilled to
play a tune they don't know with a novice player, so where does that
leave the novice? Any way you slice it it's tough getting started, so
I'd go for common ground.
--
Clay Moore
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and
he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
Tim Berens
>Tim Berens wrote:
>
>I've seen you post this opinion a couple of times. I love classical
>guitar, but I see no direct advantage in studying it to learn jazz. Yes,
>I've taken some classical lessons, but mostly I've learned from studying
>the examples of the finest jazz players. I can only think of a few truly
>great jazz players who've studied classical guitar-- none of my main
>influences, BTW-- although that is changing because of the sheer number
>of people who play the guitar worldwide.
>
>--
>Clay Moore
>
>Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and
>he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
Clay:
I love your fishing quote.
The reason I encourage people to study classical guitar is because a
dedicated study of classical guitar over a couple of years will
provide a technical foundation that will serve them well no matter
what style they play. A few of the benefits that jump to mind are:
It requires the player to learn to read music.
It develops right hand finger picking technique
It encourages a player to use hand positions that will result in
easier playing with fewer stresses and injuries.
It gets young players to begin to think outside "lead boxes" and
to think voices.
It teaches you how to get a good sound from the guitar itself, and
making a good sound on the guitar will make getting a good sound from
the amp much easier.
Of course, many great jazz guitarists never studied a bit of classical
music, so it's not necessary to study classical to play burning jazz.
But I bet you won't find too many jazz pianists who didn't build a
solid foundation in classical when they were kids.
Tim Berens
As always, feel free to ignore me
Clay Moore
> As always, feel free to ignore me
Nope, I can't possibly. You presented a well-reasoned alterate view in
respectful fashion. Thanks for sharing your position.
Paul Craig Sanwald
: Hi!
:
: I'm a 18 year old jazz student from Norway and I've been playing jazz
: for about 3 years. While reading a copy of Mark Levins: "The jazz theory
: book" I read that every good jazz player had developed a pratice routine.
: After reading this NG I thought that some of you jazz cats might assist me
: by e-mailing me some of your routines. I appreciate any contribution that
: you might have so please don't hesitate to mail whatever information you
: might have on pratice routines. Thanks in advance.
Or if anyone feels like posting any of their practice routines (past
present future) here please do so. Jimmy's post was good, made me think
about some things I haven't worked on for a while. How about some more
people post their routines? I'll start off.
1) Scales played against a polyrhythm (1 mode a week of major and minors)
2) Sight Reading (I try to get through a bebop head, and I read a ballad)
3) Chord Scales (take a voicing and play all the chords in the scale for
a major scale and the harmonic and melodic minors)
4) Technique (1 picking exercise, 1 slurring exercise)
5) Solos (I sing Bird solos and play through Charlie Christian solos that
I transcribed. I add one Bird solo a week.)
6) Tune (I play the melody to a tune over and over for a really long
time, varying the fingering, rhythmn, etc.)
7) Soloing (I try to approach a tune from a bunch of different ways )
8) Chord Arrangements (I work out arranged voicings to tunes, using a
system of chord substitution my teacher showed me).
I generally stick with a tune a week for soloing, and another for
melody. But I'm kind of in a rut playing-wise, and really need some
new ideas. So how about someone else posting theirs?
Clay Moore
> 1) Scales played against a polyrhythm (1 mode a week of major and minors)
> 2) Sight Reading (I try to get through a bebop head, and I read a ballad)
> 3) Chord Scales (take a voicing and play all the chords in the scale for
> a major scale and the harmonic and melodic minors)
> 4) Technique (1 picking exercise, 1 slurring exercise)
> 5) Solos (I sing Bird solos and play through Charlie Christian solos that
> I transcribed. I add one Bird solo a week.)
> 6) Tune (I play the melody to a tune over and over for a really long
> time, varying the fingering, rhythmn, etc.)
> 7) Soloing (I try to approach a tune from a bunch of different ways )
> 8) Chord Arrangements (I work out arranged voicings to tunes, using a
> system of chord substitution my teacher showed me).
>
> I generally stick with a tune a week for soloing, and another for
> melody. But I'm kind of in a rut playing-wise, and really need some
> new ideas. So how about someone else posting theirs?
>
Sounds like you are keeping an impressive amount of practice going, and
a good variety of proceedures. It seems lately I seldom have the guitar
in my hands for anything not directly related to work, ie gigging,
rehearsing, recording, transcrption editing, and teaching. I've been so
busy that I've had no time for a regular practice routine. It's a Catch
22, because steady work keeps your chops up in a way that no amount of
practice can substitute for, yet it's frustrating not to be able to play
guitar for yourself, to learn something new and have that feeling of
accomplishment. What I generally do when I have a spare moment is pop in
a CD or load up BIAB and just blow. Maybe I'll be able to get back to
some practicing eventually.
gch...@my-dejanews.com
Clay Moore <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Tim Berens wrote:
>
> > As always, feel free to ignore me
>
> Nope, I can't possibly. You presented a well-reasoned alterate view in
> respectful fashion. Thanks for sharing your position.
>
> Clay Moore
>
> Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and
> he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
>
I agree with Mr. Moore's post. You don't HAVE to learn music theory to PLAY
jazz music.
I have this opinion that there are PLAYERS and there are MUSICIANS. I have
been a player for 25 years. A little over a year ago I decided I'd try to
become a musician (an aweful lot of work involved!). The more I learn, the
more I realize how much more there is to learn :-/. I knew no theory at all
and tried to play jazz. I could play very little. I am now studying theory
along with scales, modes, etc. and finding I now play ALOT more than I could
without the proper tools.
I would recommend Mark Levine's "Jazz Theory Book" and a good teacher to at
least get you started.
Moveable chord shapes, scales and modes are a great place to start. Then
practice, practice, ...
"Why am I here when I could be practicing?"
Gary Chomuk
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Clay Moore
> Of course, many great jazz guitarists never studied a bit of classical
> music, so it's not necessary to study classical to play burning jazz.
> But I bet you won't find too many jazz pianists who didn't build a
> solid foundation in classical when they were kids.
Although you make your points very well, I remembered some of the
reasons why I get a bit bugged by the assertions that classical study
benefits no matter what.
First of all, to elaborate on your first sentence in that paragraph. You
are correct. You'd be hard pressed to find even one jazz guitarist who
was a major contributer to the art who studied classical guitar. Not
Lonnie Johnson, not Django, not Christian, not Oscar Moore, not Kessel
(to my knowledge), not Farlow, not Raney, not Johnny Smith, not Wes, not
Joe Pass, not Martino, not Benson, not Metheny, not Scofield. Maybe
Burrell, but who else? As I mentioned in an earlier post this is
changing, if for no other reason than guitarists are more and more
frequently coming out of music schools than the street, but overall I'd
say the influence of classical guitar in jazz has been minimal.
Second, when I started playing guitar there were almost no jazz guitar
programs at universities. If you were lucky enough to find a school
where you could major in guitar it was likely classical. This is still
the case in many universities. Overall jazz in general has been regarded
as a second class citizen in academia. We have a world class guitarist
who heads the guitar dept. at UT. From what I understand it's his way or
the highway, and his way means no other style except classical, period.
While all students are required to study classical music in such classes
as "music history" and "keyboard proficiency" the reverse isn't true.
Don't you think that a "general" music student should be required to
take jazz history and other non-classical studies, such as a class in
how to read a chord chart? Even the names of things convey the prejudice
against non-classical styles, where classical is referred to as "legit."
I guess that means other forms of music are "illegit." Well, I never
went to school past high school, and this was a big reason. I focused on
playing jazz on the electric guitar, because that's what I wanted to do,
and consequently learned the bulk of it on my own. Actually I think
that's what it all boils down to anyway: What do *you* want to do?
There's nothing wrong with studying classical if it's something that you
want to do, but you certainly don't *need* to to play jazz.
Now that I've said all this, I'm going to pick on one statement of
yours. "It (classical guitar study) teaches you how to get a good sound
from the guitar itself, and making a good sound on the guitar will make
getting a good sound from the amp much easier." This is balderdash, IMO.
There is nothing inherent in getting a good acoustic sound, whether
steel string or nylon, that tranfers automatically to getting a good
sound on electric. I ask you to name one guitarist from the classical
camp who gets a great amplified sound. They are different animals.
Kevin Van Sant
<guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> You'd be hard pressed to find even one jazz guitarist who
>was a major contributer to the art who studied classical guitar.
I agree with you on everything in your post but I don't want to
overlook Kenny Burrell, who I definitely consider a major contributor
to the art, and KB did in fact study classical guitar. I also
consider Charlie Byrd a big contributor if not a major contributor.
Of course most of you know he studied with Segovia.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
Jazz Guitar
Check out the new CD from my trio, "J'Azure" !
http://www.mindspring.com/~jazure/music.html
For a comprehensive index of internet jazz resources:
http://www.pobox.com/~onestopjazz
_________________________________________
TomLippinc
>First of all, to elaborate on your first sentence in that paragraph. You
>are correct. You'd be hard pressed to find even one jazz guitarist who
>was a major contributer to the art who studied classical guitar. Not
>Lonnie Johnson, not Django, not Christian, not Oscar Moore, not Kessel
>(to my knowledge), not Farlow, not Raney, not Johnny Smith, not Wes, not
>Joe Pass, not Martino, not Benson, not Metheny, not Scofield. Maybe
>Burrell, but who else?
Ever heard of Lenny Breau?
Also, though he never played a nylon string, it's my understanding that Johnny
Smith studied and practiced a lot of classical music (using electric guitar
with a pick). Also, and I admit that my memory is really sketchy on this, I
seem to remember Jim Hall mentioning something about studying classical guitar
briefly in an interview. I know he DID study classical composition in college.
Also, I went to a seminar years ago with Carlos Montoya (I know, flamenco, not
classical) and he said that he taught Django some lessons. There are
definitely some obvious differences between the two playing styles
(jazz/electric/pickstyle and classical) and I certainly agree that one doesn't
need to do one to do the other (and like I said before, I used to feel that my
classical playing took away from my jazz practice time), but one thing is
definitely true; classical guitar as an instrument is in many ways as much of a
"bastard child" in classical music as electric guitar is in jazz. The fact is,
I think a lot of those important jazz guitarists never studied classical guitar
or classical music in general (as guitarists) because it just wasn't very
common back then for anyone to do so.
I definitely agree with Clay 100% about the amplifier vs. acoustic tone thing.
I find that quite a few things about my technique are different when comparing
playing acoustically, playing an amplified acoustic, and playing electric, and
I can't imagine gleaning much of any information about amplified playing from
studying classical guitar.
Tom Lippincott
Clay Moore
>
> Ever heard of Lenny Breau?
Sorry, you'd be wrong on that one. Lenny was self-taught, and used a
thumbpick. He figured out his fingerstyle approach mainly from copying
Chet Atkins note-for-note. His flamenco-type techniques were gleaned
from listening to records and copying as well.
As far as the other points, yes, many players learned from playing
classical MUSIC, but using a plectrum. Back then pretty much the only
music written down was from the classical perspective. If you wanted to
learn to read that was the place to go. I don't consider this the same
animal at all as going through the entire proceedure of classical guitar
pedagogy.
Clay Moore
>
> On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 22:34:29 -0500, Clay Moore
> <guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >was a major contributer to the art who studied classical guitar.
>
> overlook Kenny Burrell, who I definitely consider a major contributor
> to the art, and KB did in fact study classical guitar. I also
> consider Charlie Byrd a big contributor if not a major contributor.
> Of course most of you know he studied with Segovia.
I knew someone would eventually bring up Charlie Byrd. I guess I'd have
to concede that he was/is an influence, but I personally can't stomach
his playing.
Nick Naffin
> Ever heard of Lenny Breau?
Yep; and he was self-taught, no?
> I definitely agree with Clay 100% about the amplifier vs. acoustic tone thing.
> I find that quite a few things about my technique are different when comparing
> playing acoustically, playing an amplified acoustic, and playing electric, and
> I can't imagine gleaning much of any information about amplified playing from
> studying classical guitar.
Same here. Acoustic and electric guitar are just two very different animals.
Due to the ever so minimal pickup delay and usually adverse monitoring situations,
my technique already changes from playing acoustically to playing on stage, and
it's *the same guitar.* I can't say I ever found anything useful that translates
from one to the other except, maybe, a certain accuracy of picking that comes from
playing acoustic, and of course the 'dive bombs' I now do on my classical.
NN
--
******************************************************
NICK NAFFIN
acoustic guitarist
Toronto, Canada
http://www.interlog.com/~takenote/nicknaffin.htm
The new project:
http://www.interlog.com/~takenote/naffinwright.htm
*****************************************************
Mike Ellenberger
TomLippinc wrote:
> I definitely agree with Clay 100% about the amplifier vs. acoustic tone thing.
> I find that quite a few things about my technique are different when comparing
> playing acoustically, playing an amplified acoustic, and playing electric, and
> I can't imagine gleaning much of any information about amplified playing from
> studying classical guitar.
>
> Tom Lippincott
Playing acoustic versus amplified are definately two different animals. However,
knowing how to get a good sound out of an acoustic guitar won't hurt. It's
certainly
not the end all because I've seen plenty of guys playing electric who have good
technique (for acoustic) but aren't good electric players. On the other hand I've
seen
electric players handcuffed by a flat top...
What you learn from playing nylon strings
is how to fret notes and make em sound different ways depending on how you pluck
them (nail, no nail, hard, soft, fat by the neck, by the bridge, etc.). This is
all useful
stuff to know when playing electric. I think there are both technical and
conceptual
things that can be transferred to the electric.
You can learn the same stuff on electric but the guitar is usually more forgiving
with
the left hand technique and once the electronics get involved the picking technique
(as far as getting different sounds) is less obvious (IMO).
It wouldn't take too long to show these things to someone so it's not like you need
to "study classical" for centuries to gain this knowledge.
Mike
Tim Berens
>First of all, to elaborate on your first sentence in that paragraph. You
>are correct. You'd be hard pressed to find even one jazz guitarist who
>was a major contributer to the art who studied classical guitar. Not
>Lonnie Johnson, not Django, not Christian, not Oscar Moore, not Kessel
>(to my knowledge), not Farlow, not Raney, not Johnny Smith, not Wes, not
>Joe Pass, not Martino, not Benson, not Metheny, not Scofield. Maybe
>Burrell, but who else? As I mentioned in an earlier post this is
>changing, if for no other reason than guitarists are more and more
>frequently coming out of music schools than the street, but overall I'd
>say the influence of classical guitar in jazz has been minimal.
No argument with your last sentence. But the influence of classical
music in general on jazz is tremendous.
>
>Second, when I started playing guitar there were almost no jazz guitar
>programs at universities. If you were lucky enough to find a school
>where you could major in guitar it was likely classical. This is still
>the case in many universities. Overall jazz in general has been regarded
>as a second class citizen in academia.
I think the perception of jazz as a second class citizen is as much a
defensiveness on the part of jazz musicians as it is a real live
thing. (Now, I'll await 100 examples that try to prove this wrong.)
Most classical musicians I know give a great deal of respect to good
jazz players because they can recognize the skill that goes into
playing jazz. The classical musicians who do not give this respect
are often themselves not strong players and use their snobbery to
artificially bolster themselves.
>We have a world class guitarist
>who heads the guitar dept. at UT. From what I understand it's his way or
>the highway, and his way means no other style except classical, period.
That is truly unfortunate. Most classical guitar teachers that I know
are receptive to and recognize the benefits of their students'
studying other styles. If you don't believe me, pop over to
rec.music.classical.guitar and post a question to the group about the
value of playing and studying jazz.
>While all students are required to study classical music in such classes
>as "music history" and "keyboard proficiency" the reverse isn't true.
>Don't you think that a "general" music student should be required to
>take jazz history and other non-classical studies, such as a class in
>how to read a chord chart?
Sounds good to me. How else are they going to gig when they get out
of school?
>Even the names of things convey the prejudice
>against non-classical styles, where classical is referred to as "legit."
>I guess that means other forms of music are "illegit."
It is almost always non-classical musicians who refer to classical as
"legit". Say "legit" to a professional symphony player. She or he
will know what you mean, but will smile when you say it.
>
>Now that I've said all this, I'm going to pick on one statement of
>yours. "It (classical guitar study) teaches you how to get a good sound
>from the guitar itself, and making a good sound on the guitar will make
>getting a good sound from the amp much easier." This is balderdash, IMO.
>There is nothing inherent in getting a good acoustic sound, whether
>steel string or nylon, that tranfers automatically to getting a good
>sound on electric. I ask you to name one guitarist from the classical
>camp who gets a great amplified sound. They are different animals.
Well, if I named myself, you'd say "And just who the hell are you?",
so I won't. My guess is you'd find these players more in the studio
and commercial worlds than in the world of art music. I know several
players who studied classical seriously and now gig playing several
styles.
By the way, I think "the classical camp" is an interesting phrase.
It's not a war; we're all just having fun playing some music.
I think knowing how to get a good sound acoustically helps
tremendously in getting a good sound from an amp.
If there were no relationship at all between getting a good sound
acoustically and getting a good sound through an amp, why would
archtop makers bother making such nice instruments? Why wouldn't we
all just be playing solid body instruments and not have to deal with
feedback and small overhead luggage bins? The reason is that the
better the sound that travels down the patch cord, the better the
sound that comes out the amp.
I read Scofield saying something similar in an interview. He
recommended that a player learn how to get a good sound with the
guitar not plugged into the amp.
My basic point is that there are two styles of music where the
challenges are endless and where you'll find all the players who
strive for constant self-improvement. These styles are jazz and
classical. Every classical player would benefit from learning to
improvise a solo over All the Things You Are. Every jazz player would
benefit from studying Bach.
Tim Berens
John Sheehy
>I knew someone would eventually bring up Charlie Byrd. I guess I'd have
>to concede that he was/is an influence, but I personally can't stomach
>his playing.
I'm not familiar with his playing, but I have one of his books, and I
really like the way he attempts to start beginners on learning to play
on one string. I think that's a really good idea. A single string is
laid out very realistically, and is intuitive, because it gives you one
fret for each semitone, all in order. The normal scale positions are
not very intuitive, and sometimes I wonder if they have some
long-lasting negative effect.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Clay Moore
>
> No argument with your last sentence. But the influence of classical
> music in general on jazz is tremendous.
And I'd agree with you. And let me add that I'm not a jazz purist; I
like many styles of music.
> I think the perception of jazz as a second class citizen is as much a
> defensiveness on the part of jazz musicians as it is a real live
> thing. (Now, I'll await 100 examples that try to prove this wrong.)
> Most classical musicians I know give a great deal of respect to good
> jazz players because they can recognize the skill that goes into
> playing jazz. The classical musicians who do not give this respect
> are often themselves not strong players and use their snobbery to
> artificially bolster themselves.
Well, I do think it's a real phenomenon, but ironically, or perhaps not,
where it really seems to to be apparent is in the faculty of
universities and conservatories. I know a fair number of classical
players, and my friends are all an open minded bunch. But I've heard a
lot of horror stories from these people and others about the
narrow-mindedness of some university professors and departments.
> That is truly unfortunate. Most classical guitar teachers that I know
> are receptive to and recognize the benefits of their students'
> studying other styles. If you don't believe me, pop over to
> rec.music.classical.guitar and post a question to the group about the
> value of playing and studying jazz.
No, I'm not trying to start a "us vs. them" debate. My classical teacher
(whom I studied with briefly) is from Spain, studied with Segovia,
started classical lessons when she was 11. She was very open minded
about other styles of music, although not to the extent that she would
play then herself. She came to see me play and seemed to enjoy it.
>
> By the way, I think "the classical camp" is an interesting phrase.
> It's not a war; we're all just having fun playing some music.
My apologies. I'm not trying to be divisive.
>
> I think knowing how to get a good sound acoustically helps
> tremendously in getting a good sound from an amp.
Joe Pass said "practice what you are going to use on the gig. If you are
going to play electric, practice on electric." I agree with him. The
physical relationships and techniques change quite a bit.
>
> If there were no relationship at all between getting a good sound
> acoustically and getting a good sound through an amp, why would
> archtop makers bother making such nice instruments? Why wouldn't we
> all just be playing solid body instruments and not have to deal with
> feedback and small overhead luggage bins? The reason is that the
> better the sound that travels down the patch cord, the better the
> sound that comes out the amp.
This is stating that handmade archtops sound intrinsically better than
other electrics. They don't. Not in my experience.
> I read Scofield saying something similar in an interview. He
> recommended that a player learn how to get a good sound with the
> guitar not plugged into the amp.
And that relationship will change once you plug it in. There are sounds
that are only available with an amplified guitar, and you can't practice
them on a nylon string acoustic axe.
>
> My basic point is that there are two styles of music where the
> challenges are endless and where you'll find all the players who
> strive for constant self-improvement. These styles are jazz and
> classical. Every classical player would benefit from learning to
> improvise a solo over All the Things You Are. Every jazz player would
> benefit from studying Bach.
I would say that's a bit narrow. Certainly there are musicians from all
styles who strive to improve and have high technical standards.
Mark Cleary
Clay Moore wrote:
>
>
> Joe Pass said "practice what you are going to use on the gig. If you are
> going to play electric, practice on electric." I agree with him. The
> physical relationships and techniques change quite a bit.
>
>
>
> ThAnd that relationship will change once you plug it in. There are sounds
> that are only available with an amplified guitar, and you can't practice
> them on a nylon string acoustic axe.
>
> >
> >
>
> I would say that's a bit narrow. Certainly there are musicians from all
> styles who strive to improve and have high technical standards.
>
> --
> Clay Moore
>
> Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and
> he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
This is interesing as I just got through playing a gig where I had to play
all acoustic. I had to play three tunes during a meditation and just me and
the guitar. I made sure that when I went over the material the day before I
play all acoustic and with the same guitar. I could have play the thing with
an amp but then the it is a different beast. I guess the best analogy is
that if you must shot free throws in the game you need to stand at the free
throw line and practice.
Since I have the option to either play my guitar acoustically or through and
amp I stop and think. When I plug the thing into a polytone then it becomes
somthing different. When I need to just sit down and play with no
electricity then it requires a different technique. Bottom line is that Joe
was right as always, practice what you will use on the gig.
--
Mark Cleary makes music on the finest guitars made.
" HOLLENBECK GUITARS the for the ultimate in tone and playability."
Visit the site http://hollenbeckjazzguitars.com
TomLippinc
>> Ever heard of Lenny Breau?
>
>thumbpick. He figured out his fingerstyle approach mainly from copying
>Chet Atkins note-for-note. His flamenco-type techniques were gleaned
>from listening to records and copying as well.
>
>As far as the other points, yes, many players learned from playing
>classical MUSIC, but using a plectrum. Back then pretty much the only
>music written down was from the classical perspective. If you wanted to
>learn to read that was the place to go. I don't consider this the same
>animal at all as going through the entire proceedure of classical guitar
>pedagogy.
>
>
In retrospect, I realize that the original post and subsequent replies
concerned the benefits of taking classical guitar lessons from an "official"
classical guitar teacher. When I made the comments about classical guitar, and
specifically about Lenny Breau, I wasn't considering the "procedure of
classical guitar pedagogy," simply the incorporation of studying classical
music and classical guitar type techniques by people who are known as jazz
guitarists. While I realize that Lenny Breau didn't study with a teacher or
anything, it's pretty undeniable that there was a lot of "classical guitar"
technique involved in his playing, to the extent that I've seen video of him
playing with an electric guitar held on his left knee, and using a classical
guitar footrest.
But in regard to the original subject, I was mistaken to include the guitarists
I did in my examples. None of the players I mentioned were/are "conservatory
trained" classical guitarists or anything.
Tom Lippincott
Tom Walls
>I think knowing how to get a good sound acoustically helps
>tremendously in getting a good sound from an amp.
>
>If there were no relationship at all between getting a good sound
>acoustically and getting a good sound through an amp, why would
>archtop makers bother making such nice instruments? Why wouldn't we
>all just be playing solid body instruments and not have to deal with
>feedback and small overhead luggage bins? The reason is that the
>better the sound that travels down the patch cord, the better the
>sound that comes out the amp.
>
>I read Scofield saying something similar in an interview. He
>recommended that a player learn how to get a good sound with the
>guitar not plugged into the amp.
>
I think the advantage comes from developing the technique required to get a
good sound from plucking the string. If you don't have the ability to get a
strong "singing" tone from the string, you will never be able to produce what I
would consider a superlative tone. I realize this opinion is totally
subjective.
On the other hand, even if your technique is very strong in this regard and you
use certain tone altering effects the listener won't be able to appreciate the
benefits of your techinque.
Glenn
sometimes I find it just too difficult to play my saxophone. You know,
having to lug it around and all.
I find it just so much easier to just play the whoremonica. I'm getting
very good at that!
JFR
>
> >
> >First of all, to elaborate on your first sentence in that paragraph. You
> >are correct. You'd be hard pressed to find even one jazz guitarist who
> >was a major contributer to the art who studied classical guitar. Not
> >Lonnie Johnson, not Django, not Christian, not Oscar Moore, not Kessel
> >(to my knowledge), not Farlow, not Raney, not Johnny Smith, not Wes, not
> >Joe Pass, not Martino, not Benson, not Metheny, not Scofield. Maybe
> >Burrell, but who else?
>
> Smith studied and practiced a lot of classical music (using electric guitar
> with a pick). Also, and I admit that my memory is really sketchy on this, I
> seem to remember Jim Hall mentioning something about studying classical guitar
> briefly in an interview. I know he DID study classical composition in college.
> Also, I went to a seminar years ago with Carlos Montoya (I know, flamenco, not
> classical) and he said that he taught Django some lessons. There are
> definitely some obvious differences between the two playing styles
> (jazz/electric/pickstyle and classical) and I certainly agree that one doesn't
> need to do one to do the other (and like I said before, I used to feel that my
> classical playing took away from my jazz practice time), but one thing is
> definitely true; classical guitar as an instrument is in many ways as much of a
> "bastard child" in classical music as electric guitar is in jazz. The fact is,
> I think a lot of those important jazz guitarists never studied classical guitar
> or classical music in general (as guitarists) because it just wasn't very
> common back then for anyone to do so.
> I find that quite a few things about my technique are different when comparing
> playing acoustically, playing an amplified acoustic, and playing electric, and
> I can't imagine gleaning much of any information about amplified playing from
> studying classical guitar.
>
> Tom Lippincott
I think Ralph Towner is probably a pretty good classical player too,
along with Egberto Gismonti. Maybe that is obvious from their
respective sound / style / equipment, etc.....
I agree that classical is not a strong precursor to jazz study, in fact
I think it could intefere in some cases. Classical emphasizes rote
playing and many classical players probably have trouble improvising
since the notes are not in front of them.
John R>
TomLippinc
>I think Ralph Towner is probably a pretty good classical player too,
>along with Egberto Gismonti. Maybe that is obvious from their
>respective sound / style / equipment, etc.....
I definitely forgot these guys, though I wouldn't be suprised to find out that
neither of them meets the "conservatory trained" requirement.
>
>I agree that classical is not a strong precursor to jazz study, in fact
>I think it could intefere in some cases. Classical emphasizes rote
>playing and many classical players probably have trouble improvising
>since the notes are not in front of them.
>
>John R>
That is a valid point, however I think that's a situation that exists because
of the attitudes of many teachers and players, not because of something
inherent in playing classical music without a pick on a nylon string guitar.
Tom Lippincott
Clay Moore
>
> >
> >I think Ralph Towner is probably a pretty good classical player too,
> >along with Egberto Gismonti. Maybe that is obvious from their
> >respective sound / style / equipment, etc.....
>
> I definitely forgot these guys, though I wouldn't be suprised to find out that
> neither of them meets the "conservatory trained" requirement.
I remember from a Towner interview that he did study classical with a
teacher and he considered it very helpful to his overall approach to the
instrument.
Don & Nan Mitchell
stated he was thoroughly trained in the classic guitar tradition, including
2 or 3 years at a conservatory in Germany.
Don
Portland,OR
>>I think Ralph Towner is probably a pretty good classical player too,
>>along with Egberto Gismonti. Maybe that is obvious from their
>>respective sound / style / equipment, etc.....
>
>I definitely forgot these guys, though I wouldn't be suprised to find out
that
>neither of them meets the "conservatory trained" requirement.
Craig Schroer
>>>along with Egberto Gismonti.
Of all the players mentioned in this thread, Egberto Gismonti is, to my
mind, the one who shows the greatest classical influence in his playing and
technique. The guy is a real monster and a heck of a piano player too!
I'd also weigh-in that my experience in music school (MA classical guitar
1987) was that all of the guitar teachers I studied with were snobbish
toward other styles of music. It's rather funny considering that the
majority of the classical guitar repertoire was written by otherwise
unknown guitarist/composers like Fernando Sor. Yet the same folks who were
diligently crafting their interpretations of Sor's "Estudio 19" looked down
their noses at popular music. (Not that there's anything wrong with
"Estudio 19," in fact, it's mighty durn pretty!)
Anyhow, after narrowly escaping a doctoral classical guitar program I spent
a couple of years hacking away at jazz. Then, in a moment of epiphany, I
decided to pick-up a style that actually afforded regular gigging
opportunities -- country! I've been playing with a country band for the
last several years and haven't looked back. Anybody else on this list into
country guitar playing?
Lastly, to return to the topic of this thread -- I don't have a lot of
freetime to practice and so I try to make the best use of what little time
I have (typically less than 1/2 hour a day). I've finally converted to
memorizing licks, assigning them numbers, and then improvising to albums by
going through all my riffs (numbers 1 - 44) and adapting them to whatever
tunes are on my CD changer. It ain't always pretty but it works out my
brain, ear, and fingers in a way that really translates well when I play
gigs. For improvisation I find that it's the closest thing to "practicing
what you're going to play" and yet doing it in a way that avoids falling
into ruts (so long as you keep adding new riffs and work on new ways to use
the existing ones...)
Cheers,
Craig Schroer
Clay Moore
> Anyhow, after narrowly escaping a doctoral classical guitar program I spent
> a couple of years hacking away at jazz. Then, in a moment of epiphany, I
> decided to pick-up a style that actually afforded regular gigging
> opportunities -- country! I've been playing with a country band for the
> last several years and haven't looked back. Anybody else on this list into
> country guitar playing?
I used to play country gigs quite a bit, but I always felt like I was
faking it. I really can appreciate some of the masters, Jimmy Bryant,
Albert Lee, Jerry Reed, Jerry Donahue, Junior Brown, etc., but it
doesn't inspire me to want to play that way. OTOH I'm friends with Rick
McRae, who plays guitar with George Strait, and Rick is a killer jazz
player. But as for me, give me jazz, fusion, blues, and rock and roll.
JFOG10
last several years and haven't looked back. Anybody else on this list into
country guitar playing?"
I kind of got type cast as the guy you call when you want some twang on your
material. I actually find the phrasing of the real hot country picking
dovetails nicely into my jazz playing ( lots of chromatics, long rolling lines,
thinking about each chord as it changes, instead of just key, and playing with
a clean sound, instead of distorted)....I just have to make sure when I come
back to jazz to LAY BAAAACK instead of push, push, push!! If you want to hear
the new frontier of hot players, check out the country scene ....there are some
absolute monsters out there.
- Jim
Musical Mercenery
"Have Guitar, Will Travel"
John Williams
but I do love country guitar.
There doesn't seem to be much interest in country guitar. I don't know
why. It sure pays the bills for me and I find it very challenging - in
fact I'd venture to say that, when done correctly, it requires more
technical expertise than most jazz genres (guess I'd better duck now).
Some of it is gimmicky and highly "lick-based" (hows that for making
enemies on both sides?), but it isn't something you can pick up and do
well, all night long, without lots of practice.
Chicken pickin' gives me callouses in places where no other type of
playing does and you can certainly learn the meaning of endurance during
a six-hour session where you cut 8 tunes back to back.
Bill Hatcher
>Hate to start this here, probably considered by most to be way off topic
>but I do love country guitar.
Me too.
>
>There doesn't seem to be much interest in country guitar. I don't know
>why. It sure pays the bills for me and I find it very challenging - in
>fact I'd venture to say that, when done correctly, it requires more
>technical expertise than most jazz genres (guess I'd better duck now).
It requires much less harmonic expertise I guarantee!! I recently
helped out a steel guitar buddy of mine with some chord charts on some
swing tunes he wanted to play at a steel guitar convention. He and
ALL the other musicians were just baffled by a min7b5 chord. No
clue!!
As far as technical expertise, it does not matter what kind of music
you play on the guitar. You play it right, you have to have a good
technique.
>
>Some of it is gimmicky and highly "lick-based" (hows that for making
>enemies on both sides?), but it isn't something you can pick up and do
>well, all night long, without lots of practice.
I beg to differ. Get a Tele and a Fender amp and turn that back PU on
and just about anything you play sounds country!!
>
>Chicken pickin' gives me callouses in places where no other type of
>playing does and you can certainly learn the meaning of endurance during
>a six-hour session where you cut 8 tunes back to back.
>
I been chicken pickin for a LONG time and have encontered no more hand
abuse than any other style of playing. As far as cutting lot's of
tunes at a country session, well it's pretty mindless when all you do
is C, F and G and a cloud of dust!!!!!
Country music, along with other styles, has been something I have
listened to and played since 1960. Right now it is so fouled up you
can't really tell what it is. So many of the LA people have invaded
Nashville and injected slick production , chainsaw rock guitar and
all these pretty child stars it's hard for me to really get into it .
Give me some George Jones anyday.
Saw a blurb in a trade mag the other day about a new trend of classic
country starting up. New record labels signing up many of the classic
stars that have not even been recording lately because the industry
they had a part in building had all but refused to try to market them
anymore. There is a move in the radio industry to target the
abandoned traditional country market with some new material from these
classic artist.
I got a couple of friends in the Nashville hierarchy. They LOVE
rap!!!! You see rap is what drove most of the kids into country
music several years ago. The market analysis in Nashville showed that
when the pop charts got infused with rap/hiphop, a lot people bailed
out and the only place they could really turn to hear some decent
songs was country.
Peter O'Leary
Hatcher) wrote:
<snip>
>Give me some George Jones anyday.
Amen brother. Or Merle Haggard, or Lefty Frizzel, or Red Sovine,
Marty Robbins, Ernest Tubb, Hank Williams Sr.
> Saw a blurb in a trade mag the other day about a new trend of classic
>country starting up. New record labels signing up many of the classic
>stars that have not even been recording lately because the industry
>they had a part in building had all but refused to try to market them
>anymore. There is a move in the radio industry to target the
>abandoned traditional country market with some new material from these
>classic artist.
Merle Haggard doesn't even have a recording contract; that's a sin.
I veered away from rock music in the early seventies when arena rock
and hair bands took over, and started digging country, while there was
still some good material. I may be old but I'm not an old fart.
There has been a groundswell of new fans (many of them very young)
seething beneath the surface of the mainstream country scene for a few
years now. Many of these fans have an abiding love for the classic
country. Artists like Wayne Hancock, Dale Watson, Jimmy Dale Gilmore
among others have been writing great honkytonk country tunes. They
and other artists share some of the same young fan base that the
neo-swing and Western Swing bands do. Bands like Ray Condo and the
Ricochets and Big Sandy and His Fly Rite Boys mix Western Swing, jump
blues, and swing. Ashley Kingman and Lee Jeffries of Big Sandy make
an awesome guitar/steel duo. The Nashville cabal is stuck with an
aging fan base because of the A&R that's being promoted. You always
hear that they're looking for something fresh and new, but they're
clueless to what has been going on. They should go to a rockabilly
weekender and see the thousands of twenty somethings - most of whom
buy and collect more records than your average country fan.
--
Peter J. O'Leary
To reply by email please remove "remove" from
remove...@enteract.com
Address altered to thwart auto-address extractors.
Paul Craig Sanwald
:
: Saw a blurb in a trade mag the other day about a new trend of classic
: country starting up. New record labels signing up many of the classic
: stars that have not even been recording lately because the industry
: they had a part in building had all but refused to try to market them
: anymore. There is a move in the radio industry to target the
: abandoned traditional country market with some new material from these
: classic artist.
There is also the growing alt.country trend, and a bunch of very young
artists playing good, raw country. A lot of them, actually, are from
here (raleigh, nc). If you want to read about the indie country scene,
pick up a magazine called No Depression.
--paul
Clay Moore
>
> Saw a blurb in a trade mag the other day about a new trend of classic
> country starting up. New record labels signing up many of the classic
> stars that have not even been recording lately because the industry
> they had a part in building had all but refused to try to market them
> anymore. There is a move in the radio industry to target the
> abandoned traditional country market with some new material from these
> classic artist.
This is kind of old hat for us Austinites. There have been quite a few
roots country bands around here for many years. Junior Brown is probably
the most exciting of this bunch as far as guitar goes, but there are
lots of others doing a more traditional, no-frills approach to country,
including Don Walser, Wayne Hancock, Kelly Willis, Eric Hokanen, and
Casper Rawls.
>
> I got a couple of friends in the Nashville hierarchy. They LOVE
> rap!!!! You see rap is what drove most of the kids into country
> music several years ago. The market analysis in Nashville showed that
> when the pop charts got infused with rap/hiphop, a lot people bailed
> out and the only place they could really turn to hear some decent
> songs was country.
Yeah, when I was playing in a "country" band about ten years ago we
played a lot of small town dances. These are usually held in a VFW hall
and all ages are admitted; adults get a stamp or something that
indicates they are old enough to buy beer. Everyone dances. We played
quite a bit of top-40 country, but we also did a lot of popular rock
stuff (Guns and Roses was big then) and some rap. These kids may live in
the boonies, but they get MTV just like everywhere else, and they know
what's currently popular.
John Williams
>
> It requires much less harmonic expertise I guarantee!! I recently
> helped out a steel guitar buddy of mine with some chord charts on some
> swing tunes he wanted to play at a steel guitar convention. He and
> ALL the other musicians were just baffled by a min7b5 chord. No
> clue!!
Not my experience at all. Most steel guitar players I've met are very
good musicians. A steel guitar just sitting idle is a pretty
harmonically complex instrument.
>
> As far as technical expertise, it does not matter what kind of music
> you play on the guitar. You play it right, you have to have a good
> technique.
> >
> >Some of it is gimmicky and highly "lick-based" (hows that for making
> >enemies on both sides?), but it isn't something you can pick up and do
> >well, all night long, without lots of practice.
> I beg to differ. Get a Tele and a Fender amp and turn that back PU on
> and just about anything you play sounds country!!
Yeah, right, nothing to it. Are you contradicting your above statement?
> >
> >Chicken pickin' gives me callouses in places where no other type of
> >playing does and you can certainly learn the meaning of endurance during
> >a six-hour session where you cut 8 tunes back to back.
> >
> I been chicken pickin for a LONG time and have encontered no more hand
> abuse than any other style of playing.
I wouldn't call it abuse but my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers on my right
hand have callouses similar to my left hand. I use many right-hand
picking techniques that aren't used in any other style - though I play
jazz that way on occasion.
> As far as cutting lot's of
> tunes at a country session, well it's pretty mindless when all you do
> is C, F and G and a cloud of dust!!!!!
I don't think that attitude would make it at any session I've been to
lately. Have you ever seen a complex, Nashville notation chart?
>
> Country music, along with other styles, has been something I have
> listened to and played since 1960. Right now it is so fouled up you
> can't really tell what it is. So many of the LA people have invaded
> Nashville and injected slick production , chainsaw rock guitar and
> all these pretty child stars it's hard for me to really get into it .
> Give me some George Jones anyday.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, back in the old days it was better, this one group
came in an polluted this other group but nobody really likes it etc.
Heard it before for almost any musical genre. Why is the new, bad stuff
selling so well? Do you think record companies are ignoring the old
stuff, even though it would somehow sell more records?
>
> Saw a blurb in a trade mag the other day about a new trend of classic
> country starting up. New record labels signing up many of the classic
> stars that have not even been recording lately because the industry
> they had a part in building had all but refused to try to market them
> anymore. There is a move in the radio industry to target the
> abandoned traditional country market with some new material from these
> classic artist.
>
Yeah, that move in the radio industry is called "retro". Happened with
rock too. It's a niche that smaller labels can ride for a while. Old
stars ocasionally make a comeback but, in any style of music, an old,
outdated style has never "came back" to replace a newer style.
I thought this was going to be an interesting thread about guitar
techniques but it degraded into an old vs. new post with thread after
thread listing "stars that I love".
Tore Lund
>
> It requires much less harmonic expertise I guarantee!! I recently
> helped out a steel guitar buddy of mine with some chord charts on some
> swing tunes he wanted to play at a steel guitar convention. He and
> ALL the other musicians were just baffled by a min7b5 chord. No
> clue!!
excellently without it.
--
Tore Lund <tl...@online.no>
fretwiz
<guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I remember from a Towner interview that he did study classical with a
> teacher and he considered it very helpful to his overall approach to the
> instrument.
I started off playing classical,(not at a conservatory) with a pretty
decent instructor. I think the main thing I am able to credit classical
playing with was reading. Right along with it on the list would be use of
proper fingering. I have guitar buddies who STILL only use three finger
for everything they do. Classical also got me interested in different
chord inversions not usually found in music other than jazz. It also
sparked my interest in music based on that other than the standard rock or
blues progressions that were so prevalent among my peers at the time. I
probably would not articulate notes with my right hand as well as I do, if
not for classical.
Bill Hatcher
There have been quite a few
>roots country bands around here for many years. Junior Brown is probably
>the most exciting of this bunch as far as guitar goes,
I dig J. Brown !!!!!!
I won't be at all surprised when he puts out a serious western swing
style recording with some tasty jazz playing. He seems to be capable
of so many styles.
Bill Hatcher
>Bill Hatcher wrote:
>>
>> It requires much less harmonic expertise I guarantee!! I recently
>
>Not my experience at all. Most steel guitar players I've met are very
>good musicians. A steel guitar just sitting idle is a pretty
>harmonically complex instrument.
Didn't say they weren't. Just said that the country players don't
have a command of as much harmonic expertise. Listen to every song on
the top 40 country and then listen to the top 40 jazz tunes on the
charts and tell me what you hear.
I own a pedal steel guitar. It is without a doubt the most
unexplored, underutilized, pidgeonholed instrument in the world. I
wished I had started playing it 30 years ago!!
>
>>
>> As far as technical expertise, it does not matter what kind of music
>> you play on the guitar. You play it right, you have to have a good
>> technique.
>>Yeah, right, nothing to it. Are you contradicting your above statement?
There is a world of difference between complex harmonic playing and
the actual tecnique of playing the guitar. No matter what you play
whether it be simple or complex should be done with a good technique.
>I wouldn't call it abuse but my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers on my right
>hand have callouses similar to my left hand. I use many right-hand
>picking techniques that aren't used in any other style - though I play
>jazz that way on occasion.
I use my nails on my right hand. No callouses on either of my hands.
This after35 years of constant giging on guitar, E. bass, mandolin,
and banjo. I just never got any callouses on my left hand. Don't ask
me why.
>
>> As far as cutting lot's of
>> tunes at a country session, well it's pretty mindless when all you do
>> is C, F and G and a cloud of dust!!!!!
>
>I don't think that attitude would make it at any session I've been to
>lately. Have you ever seen a complex, Nashville notation chart?
The majority of hard core country sessions I have been on are still
VERY simple. If you are making reference to those "Nashville Number"
charts I have seen hundreds of them. When you are dealing with a "C,F
and G and a cloud of dust" song, these charts are tollerable, but when
you get into a more complex song, I always rewrite them into a more
standard notation. If the song is real simple the NN charts work fine
because you can change the key of the song very easily.
I would like to see "Giant Steps" written out in NN and hand it to
someone to improvise over. I still like to see the names of the
chords written out. There are so many triggers that go off in my
musical thought when I see the chord name instead of a number. Just
works best for me.
>> Country music, along with other styles, has been something I have
>> listened to and played since 1960. Right now it is so fouled up you
>> can't really tell what it is. So many of the LA people have invaded
>> Nashville and injected slick production , chainsaw rock guitar and
>> all these pretty child stars it's hard for me to really get into it .
>> Give me some George Jones anyday.
>
>Yeah, yeah, yeah, back in the old days it was better, this one group
>came in an polluted this other group but nobody really likes it etc.
>Heard it before for almost any musical genre. Why is the new, bad stuff
>selling so well? Do you think record companies are ignoring the old
>stuff, even though it would somehow sell more records?
I don't mind defending my statements. This new bad stuff is not
selling so well these days. Country sales are down across the board
and the moguls in Nashville are worried about it. A few years ago
Garth Brooks was single handedly responsible for something like 30% of
money made in the country field. Not very good. I don't know what
kind of comment your "old days" statement is. Are you attacking the
facts?? Up until recently, country radio NEVER had a 10 song
playlist like pop radio. You could turn on a station and hear new AND
classic material. Country fans followed an artist for his entire
carreer. Now the country market is identical to pop in fan base and
radio play. Record companies are ignoring older artist because they
now have a different attitude concerning the "young image" thing.
Companies are being run by people who can't make it in the pop world
anymore. If you knew all the LA people working in Nashville right
now you might understand this a little better rather than just making
the statements you have.
>
>>
>> Saw a blurb in a trade mag the other day about a new trend of classic
>> country starting up. New record labels signing up many of the classic
>> stars that have not even been recording lately because the industry
>> they had a part in building had all but refused to try to market them
>> anymore. There is a move in the radio industry to target the
>> abandoned traditional country market with some new material from these
>> classic artist.
>>
>
>Yeah, that move in the radio industry is called "retro". Happened with
>rock too. It's a niche that smaller labels can ride for a while. Old
>stars ocasionally make a comeback but, in any style of music, an old,
>outdated style has never "came back" to replace a newer style.
"Outdated" styles usually make a big comeback during period of times
in the music business where the pop music of the day stinks. You
played at any "swing" parties lately.
>
>I thought this was going to be an interesting thread about guitar
>techniques but it degraded into an old vs. new post with thread after
>thread listing "stars that I love".
If you are not interested in what is being said here then hit that
button on your computer and skip the thread OR add something
constructive if you can whether it be about guitar technique or your
opinion of what is going on in country music.
Bill Hatcher
>Bill Hatcher wrote:
>>
>> It requires much less harmonic expertise I guarantee!! I recently
>> helped out a steel guitar buddy of mine with some chord charts on some
>> swing tunes he wanted to play at a steel guitar convention. He and
>> ALL the other musicians were just baffled by a min7b5 chord. No
>> clue!!
>
>With all respect for the m7b5 chord, many styles of music get on
>excellently without it.
I agree. The last mountain dulcimar recording I heard did not have a
min7b5 chord anywhere. How about bagpipes???? :-)
JFOG10
Bill sez...."The last mountain dulcimar recording I heard did not have a
min7b5 chord anywhere. How about bagpipes???? "
Well...maybe not intensionally. :)
John Williams
>
> John Williams <jw...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>
> >Bill Hatcher wrote:
> The majority of hard core country sessions I have been on are still
> VERY simple. If you are making reference to those "Nashville Number"
> charts I have seen hundreds of them. When you are dealing with a "C,F
> and G and a cloud of dust" song, these charts are tollerable, but when
> you get into a more complex song, I always rewrite them into a more
> standard notation. If the song is real simple the NN charts work fine
> because you can change the key of the song very easily.
Country music is sometimes very simple but the production values are way
different than a jazz session. I'm not putting one above the other
either. I've never called a musician back that put down the music he
was called to play as being simple.
If you go into a professional session, demo or otherwise, and start
re-writing charts, you won't last long.
>
> I would like to see "Giant Steps" written out in NN and hand it to
> someone to improvise over.
Happens quite a bit. I have many standards written out in Nashville
notation to save time when a singer wants to cut something like that - I
can just pull it out of a folder, hand it out, figure out a key, and
roll tape. Most of the players I call for sessions can do very good
takes the first time through using this sort of chart.
You should pick up the book "The Nashville Number System" by Chas
Williams (no relation), I think you can get it at
http://www.nashville.net/~troppo/nns.htm. The system has evolved into
being able to cover most any notation situation that can be covered by
standard chord charts. It's not the end all and there are certainly
situations where standard notation is way more elegant and efficient,
but I've been finding Nashville number charts on a surprising number of
dates lately.
It's of course prevalent in almost any country session you could be in,
in fact I'd be pretty wary of the production organization if I showed up
to a country session and found standard chord charts.
I've also done audio-for-video work for local and national production
companies that used Nashville charts for the entire session. It was
improv type material, not many single-note cues, and the sessions went
very well.
John Williams
>
> John Williams <jw...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>
> >Country music is sometimes very simple but the production values are way
> >different than a jazz session. I'm not putting one above the other
> >either. I've never called a musician back that put down the music he
> >was called to play as being simple.
> >
> >If you go into a professional session, demo or otherwise, and start
> >re-writing charts, you won't last long.
> musician since the early 60s. I have rewritten more session charts
> than you have probably ever seen in your life.
>
> >It's of course prevalent in almost any country session you could be in,
> >in fact I'd be pretty wary of the production organization if I showed up
> >to a country session and found standard chord charts.
> >
> >I've also done audio-for-video work for local and national production
> >companies that used Nashville charts for the entire session. It was
> >very well.
>
> I have never seen the NN system used very much except in Nashville.
> Every major television recording work I have done , "Frazier", "Heat
> of the Night", Turner Classic Movies, "WKRP in Cincinatti", "Space
> Ghost" and many others used standard notation.
>
> Every Broadway show I have EVER played had the little dots on the
> page.
>
> Every major artist I ever backed up had charts written out in standard
> notation, including some country acts (Johnny Cash and Roy Clark and
> Chet Atkins come to mind).
>
> As far as your session you did with some simple number charts and no
> single note cues---I see this type of recording a lot. Low budget
> stuff by producers who don't have much musical depth. They usually
> hire some mediocre midiot who does not know how to arrange or write
> anything down for specific instruments anyway. They just bring in
> chord charts and expect the musicians to make up the music and make
> them look like they are responsible for it. I would much rather walk
> in to a session and have a nice chart to work from written by an
> arranger who actually has a clue.
>
> Now, what did you want to discuss about country guitar??
Nothing, sorry, looks like you're way smarter on this than me.
Bill Hatcher
roo7flat5
Bill Hatcher wrote in message <36000a0d...@news.mindspring.com>...
Show band. Anyone care to name his 'best' cd....? Anyone also heard the
recently hailed Redd Kalvaert?
There seems to be a legion of hot country players around across the
styles... The two Pomgolians, Albert Lee and Ray Flacke are good, and
there's something appealing in the solos Pete Anderson takes for Dwight
Yoakam, and Will Ray is hot and tasteful. A few year's back I heard a 'rain'
song on the radio, by Kenny Rogers with the solo break taken by Stanley
Jordan!
And hell, complex harmonies just ain't called for when your standin' by
your man, having nobody home when you call their name or have to deal with
honky-tonk angels.
There seems to be lots of cross-over going on.... if my memory serves me
right, a friend once played me some tongue in cheek blistering country
playing by Zakk Wylde, Ozzy Osborne guitarist (?)..
And country player Mike Henderson has an excellent straight ahead white-boy
blues album.
I can recall hearing jazz from steel players .... Buddy Emmons comes to
mind......I think with Bucky Pizzarelli...
Bill Hatcher
> I can recall hearing jazz from steel players .... Buddy Emmons comes to
>mind......I think with Bucky Pizzarelli...
Buddy Emmons is THE player on steel, however the record you are
referring to is with Doug Journigan.
Emmons had a nice recording with Lenny Breau. It was not his best
seller (naturally--they played too much jazz!!!!), but there is some
great playing on it.
Bill Hatcher
of surprise and it was interesting to see some folks fess up to liking
it!
Keeping to the jazz guitar theme here, it is well known that jazz
guitar has always been an inspiration to the players in Nashville.
The country recordings of the 50s and 60s were often sprinkled with
nice "bopish" guitar licks. Billy Byrd, Leon Rhodes and Jimmy Capps
of the Ernest Tubb Texas Troubadours played some great swing guitar.
Bob Wills great band had some of the finest jazz guitarist (both steel
and "underarm" guitar 8-) you would ever want to hear. Recently
deceased Eldon Shamblin and Jimmy Wyble played in this group as did
many others.
Hank Garland!!!! Goodness this fellow could play jazz! The story
goes that once the Stan Kenton band came to Nashville for a concert.
Afterwards they went out to a local club to do some "cuttin" on the
local "hick" musicians! Garland had a little group playing and just
wasted them!!! He was a Django fan who worked hard to hone his jazz
chops and before his career ending car accident recorded the
ledgendary "Jazz Winds From a New Direction" that was a catalyst in
George Benson's early career. This record was produced by another
country guitar ledgend Grady Martin. Martin played on hundreds of
recordings and though his own recordings are mostly very commercial
efforts, he is still a great player.
Harold Bradley tells the story of how he, Hank Garland, and others
would go see Wes Montgomery play. Bradley himself, although most of
his playing was done on the "tic-tac" Danelectro 6 string bass, had
several Columbia recordings under his own name. These recordings
feature some very nice jazz inspired, chord melody, playing aimed at
the easy listening market.
Chet Atkins early work is heavily influenced by Les Paul and Django.
Jimmy Bryant! Barney Kessel said that Bryant had more chops than any
jazz player he had ever heard.
Roy Clark and Glen Campbell both play very jazz inspired guitar.
The early style of country lent itself toward playing more fills along
with the vocalist. These guys really got away with playing some nice
stuff! The cardinal rule was that you NEVER step on the vocalist!!!
The country music you hear these days is so formulized and sanitized
that you don't get to hear as much jazz influenced playing as you used
to. The guitar sounds have become so rock influenced. Country
production sounds more like 70s pop music every day to my ears.
I am sure that I have left out some players that deserve to be linked
with the jazz world. Anybody else have some names??
Mitch Drumm
: The discussion of country guitar here on this jazz group came as a bit
: of surprise and it was interesting to see some folks fess up to liking
: it!
: Hank Garland!!!! Goodness this fellow could play jazz! The story
: goes that once the Stan Kenton band came to Nashville for a concert.
: Afterwards they went out to a local club to do some "cuttin" on the
: local "hick" musicians! Garland had a little group playing and just
: wasted them!!! He was a Django fan who worked hard to hone his jazz
I have heard a similar story about the I believe the Basie band travelling
through Nevada by bus, stopping for the night in Battle Mountain, going into
a local joint, and running into Thumbs Carlille, who was working in a small
casino with a group.
:
: Jimmy Bryant! Barney Kessel said that Bryant had more chops than any
: jazz player he had ever heard.
I have heard people in the LA area speak of seeing jam sessions with Bryant,
Stuff Smith, and Joaquin Murphey on steel, which is just boggling to
imagine. This was in the 50s.
:
: I am sure that I have left out some players that deserve to be linked
: with the jazz world. Anybody else have some names??
Roy Lanham, standard
Curly Chalker, steel
Jimmie Rivers, standard
Bill Hatcher
Curly Chalker, steel
DUHHHH!! How in the world I could leave out Chalker!!
I have several recordings and a video of him. His chord work on the
C6 neck is as inspiring as any guitar player you will ever hear.
Kamchak Tuchuk
bhat...@mindspring.com (Bill Hatcher) wrote:was a
catalyst in
>
>Jimmy Bryant! Barney Kessel said that Bryant had more chops than any
>jazz player he had ever heard.
>
Hoowee!!! That Jimmy Bryant/Speedy West stuff is
amazing IMO.
>Roy Clark and Glen Campbell both play very jazz inspired guitar.
>
>The early style of country lent itself toward playing more fills along
>with the vocalist. These guys really got away with playing some nice
>stuff! The cardinal rule was that you NEVER step on the vocalist!!!
>
>The country music you hear these days is so formulized and sanitized
>that you don't get to hear as much jazz influenced playing as you used
>to. The guitar sounds have become so rock influenced. Country
>production sounds more like 70s pop music every day to my ears.
>
>I am sure that I have left out some players that deserve to be linked
>with the jazz world. Anybody else have some names??
Of the new guys, I think Brent Mason has some
jazzy inflections. In a Larry Carlton sort of
way...
Steve Wariner too...
Clay Moore
> There seems to be lots of cross-over going on.... if my memory serves me
> right, a friend once played me some tongue in cheek blistering country
> playing by Zakk Wylde, Ozzy Osborne guitarist (?)..
> And country player Mike Henderson has an excellent straight ahead white-boy
> blues album.
There is a guy named Michael Lee Firkins, who is one of those
instrumental guitarists who I believe was a Shrapnel Records guy. I've
only heard a little bit but he is pretty astounding, playing a sort of
chops-rock style but using a clean tone and lots of pedal steel and
chicken pickin' licks.
> I can recall hearing jazz from steel players .... Buddy Emmons comes to
> mind......I think with Bucky Pizzarelli...
I believe it was Doug Jernigan and Bucky. I was at the concert where
these two met. It was a pedal steel and jazz guitar summit, with Tal
Farlow, Herb Ellis, Howard Roberts, Les Paul, and Bucky on guitars, and
Curly Chalker, Maurice Anderson, Buddy Emmons, and Doug Jernigan on
steel guitars. Slam Stewart was on bass and Louis Bellson was on drums.
At one point they tried to have them play all at once, which was of
course a complete mess. Les Paul came off as completely taseless and
non-musical. The rest of the players did nice individual sets.
Buddy Emmons did a record with Lenny Breau called "Minors Aloud." I used
to have it, and it was pretty good, if not spectacular. I didn't
particularly care for the way the other players on the date-- Nashville
studio players I think-- interpreted jazz. The drummer in particular
sounded out of place.
JAlbin1916
> And hell, complex harmonies just ain't called for when your standin' by
>your man, having nobody home when you call their name or have to deal with
>honky-tonk angels.
True, I suppose. But if you turn 21 in prison doin' life without parole you
should have plenty of time to learn how to superimpose triads.
> I can recall hearing jazz from steel players .... Buddy Emmons comes to
>mind
Check out "Redneck Jazz", Danny Gatton's and Buddy Emmon's band in the 70's.
Also, lest anybody think that country is nothin but C-F-G triads, check out
some Willy Nelson.
-John
JAlbin1916
>I am sure that I have left out some players that deserve to be linked
>with the jazz world. Anybody else have some names??
How 'bout:
Les Paul.
Scotty Moore
Tom Walls
says...
>Also, lest anybody think that country is nothin but C-F-G triads, check out
>some Willy Nelson.
>
>-John
>
>
Charlie Rich wrote some really sophisticated tunes, too.
JAlbin1916
>Charlie Rich wrote some really sophisticated tunes, too.
>
>
He had some sophisticated hair technology too :)
Don & Nan Mitchell
Mark O'Conner playing some awesome fiddle. Turned out it was a half-hour
show called the New Nashville Cats: Mark on fiddle, of course, and Brent
Mason on guitar ( don't know the other guys). Anyway, these guys were just
smoking, changing styles as they improvised their solos. The whole thing
started out very bluegrass, but started progressing, getting more
rhythmically and harmonically complex, kind of the way Lenny Breau did with
"That's All" on the "Live at Shelly's Manhole" album. So at one point Mason
is playing and goes from bluegrass flatpicking style, to chicken-pickin',
and finally rips into straight-ahead bebop lines, all a blistering speed. I
was very impressed that this very good country player also had a thorough
handle on bebop vocabulary: the right notes, the right phrasing. I get the
impression that Mason is very knowlegable and versatile.
Don
Kamchak Tuchuk wrote in message <36012a4f....@nntp.InfoAve.net>...
>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:32:17 GMT,
>bhat...@mindspring.com (Bill Hatcher) wrote:was a
>catalyst in
>>
>>Jimmy Bryant! Barney Kessel said that Bryant had more chops than any
>>jazz player he had ever heard.
>>
>
>
>Hoowee!!! That Jimmy Bryant/Speedy West stuff is
>amazing IMO.
>
>
>>Roy Clark and Glen Campbell both play very jazz inspired guitar.
>>
>>The early style of country lent itself toward playing more fills along
>>with the vocalist. These guys really got away with playing some nice
>>stuff! The cardinal rule was that you NEVER step on the vocalist!!!
>>
>>The country music you hear these days is so formulized and sanitized
>>that you don't get to hear as much jazz influenced playing as you used
>>to. The guitar sounds have become so rock influenced. Country
>>production sounds more like 70s pop music every day to my ears.
>>
>>with the jazz world. Anybody else have some names??
>
>
Tom Walls
says...
>
>
>>Charlie Rich wrote some really sophisticated tunes, too.
>>
>>
>
>He had some sophisticated hair technology too :)
Charlie Rich,aka. The Silver Fox!
TomLippinc
>
>Of the new guys, I think Brent Mason has some
>jazzy inflections. In a Larry Carlton sort of
>way...
>Steve Wariner too...
I really dug some of the stuff I'd heard of Brent Mason on Alan Jackson's
recordings (though it does sound pretty derivative of Albert Lee to my ears)
and so I picked up his solo album. What a big dissapointment THAT was.
BBBZZZZZZZZ ("so, Mr. Lippincott, looks like we may have a cavity here; the
dentist will be in in a moment to check you out").
Tom Lippincott
roo7flat5
TomLippinc wrote in message <19980919032943...@ng63.aol.com>...
This has been my general experience regarding the abilities of many artists
of other styles... You hear some fragment of their playing that sounds
promising, but are disappointed when you seek it out further.... your jazz
perspective doesn't allow you to tolerate easily a whole range of '
short-comings'... things that don't seem apparent to their fan base....
Perhaps this calls for a new thread on the guitarists from different
styles who impress rmmgj'ers...even if our lists expose our lapses in taste
... maybe we liked them a lot in the past, and still have a weak spot, even
if we are now aware of their short-comings..... a healthy diet should be
varied and tolerant of some junk food now and again.... I can think of
some.... (tremble).....
Clay Moore
>
> This has been my general experience regarding the abilities of many artists
> of other styles... You hear some fragment of their playing that sounds
> promising, but are disappointed when you seek it out further.... your jazz
> perspective doesn't allow you to tolerate easily a whole range of '
> short-comings'... things that don't seem apparent to their fan base....
I think a lot of otherwise fine studio players have had trouble when
they do solo outings. Obviously this is a matter of taste, and I won't
mention any names, but I've heard some records that were gawd-awful by
some pretty heavy cats.
Kamchak Tuchuk
(TomLippinc) wrote:
>
>>
>>Of the new guys, I think Brent Mason has some
>>jazzy inflections. In a Larry Carlton sort of
>>way...
>>Steve Wariner too...
>
>I really dug some of the stuff I'd heard of Brent Mason on Alan Jackson's
>recordings (though it does sound pretty derivative of Albert Lee to my ears)
>and so I picked up his solo album. What a big dissapointment THAT was.
>BBBZZZZZZZZ ("so, Mr. Lippincott, looks like we may have a cavity here; the
>dentist will be in in a moment to check you out").
>
>Tom Lippincott
Yeah. I hear ya. Some of that stuff is too "smooth
jazz" but I really liked the country stuff and
actually, I was really knocked out by the pedal
steel player.....
RobertH446
Brents video is pretty good. A lot of country tele stuff and then toward the
end he does some real nice jazz playing.
They transcribed a lot of the country stuff but very little of the jazz stuff.
Such is life!
bob
TomLippinc
>
>I think a lot of otherwise fine studio players have had trouble when
>they do solo outings. Obviously this is a matter of taste, and I won't
>mention any names, but I've heard some records that were gawd-awful by
>some pretty heavy cats.
>
>--
I've always thought the same thing, and it's always kept me wary of seeking out
a lot of studio work (not that I turn stuff down that pays, just that I haven't
spent a lot of time or effort trying to "nurture" that aspect of my "career".)
Tom Lippincott
TomLippinc
>
>This has been my general experience regarding the abilities of many artists
>of other styles... You hear some fragment of their playing that sounds
>promising, but are disappointed when you seek it out further.... your jazz
>perspective doesn't allow you to tolerate easily a whole range of '
>short-comings'... things that don't seem apparent to their fan base....
>styles who impress rmmgj'ers...even if our lists expose our lapses in taste
>... maybe we liked them a lot in the past, and still have a weak spot, even
>if we are now aware of their short-comings..... a healthy diet should be
>varied and tolerant of some junk food now and again.... I can think of
>some.... (tremble).....
>
>
Okay, I'm game, though I don't by any means consider non-jazz music to be "junk
food". I've heard everything from health food to cotton candy in just about
every style of music, jazz included. But anyway, here's a short "top of the
head" list of some of my favorite guitarists who could by no stretch of the
imagination be considered "jazz players":
Danny Gatton
Albert Collins
Albert Lee
Albert King
Fat Albert (just kidding)
Eddie Van Halen
Jimi Hendrix
Jimmy Page
Jeff Beck
Junior Brown
Stevie Ray Vaughan
John Williams
Paco De Lucia
Reeves Gabrels
Adrien Belew
Joe Satriani
Robert Johnson
Dick Dale
Robben Ford
John, Paul, and George
Well, I'll stop there.
Tom Lippincott
Travis Harrell
TomLippinc wrote:
> <snip>
> But anyway, here's a short "top of the
> head" list of some of my favorite guitarists who could by no stretch of the
> imagination be considered "jazz players":
>
> Danny Gatton (get "New York Stories", all jazz and very impressive IMO)
> <snip>
> Robben Ford (heard him with Gillespie on the Rythmsticks video, very tastefull)
> <snip>
--
Travis
Ft. Worth, TX
For email, neuter my return address.
JGoodpast
>> But anyway, here's a short "top of the
>> head" list of some of my favorite guitarists who could by no stretch of the
>> imagination be considered "jazz players":
Otis Rush, Buddy Guy, Albert King, Freddie King & Robert Jr Lockwood in
blues...
Frank Zappa, Buckethead, Carlos Santana, and Vernon Reid(though Reid &
Buckethead could be considered jazz) in rock/experiemental
Doc Watson, Clarence White, Tony Rice, John Fahey and David Greir in
acoustic/american/ instrumenta/ bluegrass
john
roo7flat5
TomLippinc wrote in message <19980920034207...@ng113.aol.com>...
>
>>
>>This has been my general experience regarding the abilities of many
artists
>>of other styles... You hear some fragment of their playing that sounds
>>promising, but are disappointed when you seek it out further.... your jazz
>>perspective doesn't allow you to tolerate easily a whole range of '
>>short-comings'... things that don't seem apparent to their fan base....
>> Perhaps this calls for a new thread on the guitarists from
different
>>styles who impress rmmgj'ers...even if our lists expose our lapses in
taste
>>... maybe we liked them a lot in the past, and still have a weak spot,
even
>>if we are now aware of their short-comings..... a healthy diet should be
>>varied and tolerant of some junk food now and again.... I can think of
>>some.... (tremble).....
>>
>>
>
>Okay, I'm game, though I don't by any means consider non-jazz music to be
"junk
>food". I've heard everything from health food to cotton candy in just
about
the
>head" list of some of my favorite guitarists who could by no stretch of the
>imagination be considered "jazz players":
>
>Albert Collins
>Albert Lee
>Albert King
>Fat Albert (just kidding)
>Eddie Van Halen
>Jimi Hendrix
>Jimmy Page
>Jeff Beck
>Junior Brown
>Stevie Ray Vaughan
>John Williams
>Paco De Lucia
>Reeves Gabrels
>Adrien Belew
>Joe Satriani
>Robert Johnson
>Dick Dale
>Robben Ford
>John, Paul, and George
>
>Well, I'll stop there.
>
>
>Tom Lippincott
my 'junk food' metaphor... a little cotton candy (called fairy floss here)
will satisfy an unfulfilled craving, but too much will give you cavities...
and as for health food.....you might go the distance, but it could be
dull....let alone too earnest.....
Yours is a great list... which allows me to add.... I wouldn't have
thought of Reeves Gabrels and Adrian Belew... that's due to my lack of
familiarity... Have you any of their recorded 'best of ' examples in mind
?
Here's some 'top of the head ' examples I'd add to your fine list.....
Charlie Baty
Ritchie Blackmore
Alvin Lee
Johnny Winter
Pete Anderson
Will Ray
Gary Moore
Guy Van Duser
Steve Morse
Brian Setzer
Duke Robillard
Slava Gregorian
Angel and Pepe Romero
Tony Mc Manus.......
TomLippinc
> I wouldn't have
>thought of Reeves Gabrels and Adrian Belew... that's due to my lack of
>familiarity... Have you any of their recorded 'best of ' examples in mind
>?
I've only heard Gabrels (hope I spelled his name right) with David Bowie, but
I've always been impressed with his inventiveness and originality, particularly
on live TV appearances I've seen.
I have two of Belew's solo albums, "Lone Rhino" and "Twang Bar King" which I've
always liked. Then I saw King Crimson on their "Thrak" tour a couple of years
ago and was really impressed with Belew on the whole; his sound, his playing,
his singing, the writing, the whole ball of wax. I've always thought Fripp did
some cool stuff, but could never quite get past the dry, analytical vibe that
everything he does seems to have.
I'm curious about these players you named; I'm not familiar with any of them
other than a couple of the names ringing a distant bell.
>Charlie Baty
>Guy Van Duser
>Slava Gregorian
>Tony Mc Manus.......
>
>
Tom Lippincott
roo7flat5
TomLippinc wrote in message <19980921031448...@ng115.aol.com>...
Charlie and the Nightcats.... wry lyrics,tight rhythm section and Baty's
manic blend of jump blues, Charlie Christianisms, swing, rock 'n' roll,
rockabilly... tremelo picking and relentless drive..The cover photo. of the
first two lp's shows him with a Gibson 'Charlie Christian'....but he's a
good Strat. and 335 stylist... 'Captured' the live cd is good value....
Guy Van Duser is a fine nylon string fingerstylist... probably best known
for his solo fingerstyle version of Sousa's 'Stars and Stripes ..... '
march. I haven't heard of him for a long time, but his lp's, one solo, and
another with a penny -whistle player (on Rounder, I think) are excellent...
Maybe one of the more knowledgeable fingerstylist fugitives could update
us... BTW, for nostalgic 'boomers', he plays a great medley of several old
tv Western themes....Know 'em Rev.?
I sought names across several styles, hence the inclusion of talented young
classical guitarist Slava Gregorian.. He was based here in Australia, and
had some recordings on Sony, but I believe he's now based in London.. BTW,
there seem to be lots of very competent classical guitarists around even on
budget labels.
Not normally on my listening list at all, but Scots steel string acoustic,
broadly 'Celtic' stylist,Tony McManus plays with such beauty and virtuosity
on a 1995 Greentrax cd...that it'll bring a tear to the eye and capture the
admiration of the most hardened pipe-averse Anglo....
DickSchnei
<roo7...@c-link.com.au> writes:
>I haven't heard of him for a long time, but his lp's, one solo, and
>another with a penny -whistle player (on Rounder, I think) are excellent...
Actually, Guy Van Duser has quite a few recordings. I have around 5 or 6 of
them and the duet ones with a clarinet player, Billy Novick, are my favorites.
Van Duser is a great fingerstyle player in many styles. Most of them are on
Rounder.
Dick Schneiders
n...@emerald.cns.net.au
>...(edit).......Then I saw King Crimson on their "Thrak" tour a couple of years
>ago and was really impressed with Belew on the whole; his sound, his playing,
>his singing, the writing, the whole ball of wax. I've always thought Fripp did
>some cool stuff, but could never quite get past the dry, analytical vibe that
>everything he does seems to have.
>(edit)
About maybe 15 years back, I saw an incarnation of King Crimson on New
Zealand TV and was quite amazed at Belew's command of feedback and
general noise making/mayhem in the context of a extremely musical and
exciting solo. I can't recall him picking any notes at all...he
seemed to just play with his guitar's controls. I recall he later
turned up on a Talking Heads' album doing the same kind of thing and
again impressed me big time. Oddly, I have both Lone Rhino and Young
Lions and don't like either particularly. Maybe this ties up with
another post about the pitfalls for the sideman of the solo album.
As for R.Fripp Esq, I don't know what to make of him ....personality
wise, I get the impression he missed his true vocation as an
undertaker (judging by the vibe I get from the most bizarre
anally-retentive essays he once wrote for GP about his outlook on
guitar playing). FWIW, his playing never impressed me at all even
though everyone in the early mid 70's seemed to be muttering his name
in hushed tones later reserved for the likes of Steve Howe and John
McLaughlin. As for his celebrated Frippertronics, I don't know how
Les Paul didn't bother to sue him.
Would anyone on the NG own up to attending one of Fripp's costly
Guitar Craft workshops? Did the added expense of buying a compulsory
Ovation acoustic, "special exercises", regimented postures and
exclusive Fripp guitar tuning system release y'all from your wicked
pasts? Did you have to wear matching orange skivvies (not sure what
the US equivalent in dress standards is for a skivvy...basically a
long sleeved T-shirt with a high collar. "Black" ones are perenially
popular with the local art fraternity)? What was the food like? Did
you get to write home to Mom?
(...and then later, GIT gets criticised for allegedly promoting
conformity!!!)
n...@emerald.cns.net.au
<roo7...@c-link.com.au> wrote:
>Here's some 'top of the head ' examples I'd add to your fine list.....
>Charlie Baty
>Ritchie Blackmore
>Alvin Lee
>Johnny Winter
>Pete Anderson
>Will Ray
>Gary Moore
>Guy Van Duser
>Steve Morse
>Brian Setzer
>Duke Robillard
>Slava Gregorian
>Angel and Pepe Romero
>Tony Mc Manus.......
>
>
Pushed all the right buttons for me, roo old son. "Amen" to Charlie
Baty ....I saw the Nightcats a few years back and Charlie played
blazing, vein poppin' swing lines chorus after chorus with his eyes
rolled back in the sockets, looking like he was speaking in tongues
(or handlin' snakes...). Awesome primal stuff. Charlie C. would be
proud.
Another name that I would add would be (don't laugh) Peter Frampton.
I refer of course to his brilliant playing in Humble Pie (check out
Rockin' the Fillmore) where he sounded like none of his contemporaries
and seemed to have a sophisticated "modal thing" happening way beyond
the usual blues scale proliferation in 1970. I happened to see him
last night on TNT cable and his closing solos tipped a more than
casual familiarity with chromaticism et al. Does anyone (Clay....you
seem to get off on this type of topic?) have any similar observations
about Frampton's Humble Pie days. (Note: I said "Humble Pie" days, I
know nothing of the "Do You Feel The Way I Do/talkbox" Frampton
years.)
Also I had a lot of time for Robin Trower....I thought the
Hendrix-clone label was unfairly misapplied to him. He was someone
who played virtually only the patented "blues scale" but coupled with
a great sense of phrasing, drama and a wicked vibrato, he seemed
capable of seemingly inexhaustibly inventive lines. (Hmmm....mMaybe
the Hendrix-clone thing wasn't misplaced.....haha - just
kiddin....really)
Frank Marino I heard only recently on two Tribute CD's (homages to
Albert King and SRV) but I was impressed to hear a primitive Robben
Ford vibe to his playing on "Things That I Used To Do" which was
compelling.
Also got a similar softspot for Leslie West....two fingered blues
licks, awesome vibrato, tone and phrasing. Unbeatable.
I also revisited Jan Akkerman''s playing on the early '70's hit "Hocus
Pocus" by Nederlander band Focus. I was an impressionable lad when
that came out and boy, could that guy rip.....again not a jazz player
by any means but ....
Sorry to go on....
NORMAL TRANSMISSION WILL NOW RESUME......(bzzzz....bzzzz........) Hi
Jazz fans,.....tonite's topic will be "Why is my buddy's archtop
better than my own...."
.......and to lead the discussion, we have ....
Clay Moore
> Another name that I would add would be (don't laugh) Peter Frampton.
> I refer of course to his brilliant playing in Humble Pie (check out
> Rockin' the Fillmore) where he sounded like none of his contemporaries
> and seemed to have a sophisticated "modal thing" happening way beyond
> the usual blues scale proliferation in 1970. I happened to see him
> last night on TNT cable and his closing solos tipped a more than
> casual familiarity with chromaticism et al. Does anyone (Clay....you
> seem to get off on this type of topic?) have any similar observations
> about Frampton's Humble Pie days. (Note: I said "Humble Pie" days, I
> know nothing of the "Do You Feel The Way I Do/talkbox" Frampton
> years.)
Yeah, I remember Framp playing some pretty cool stuff with Humble Pie,
but it's been so long ago I couldn't give any kind of opinion as to what
he was doing.
Ok, you guys asked. Even though some of these names have already been
mentioned I'll chime in who some of the "cats" were (and are) for me.
Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Hendrix, Santana, Johnny Winter, Rick
Derringer, Ritchie Blackmore, Duane Allman and Dickie Betts, Roy
Buchanan, Peter Haycock, Leo Kottke, Roy Clark, Carlos Montoya, Freddie
King, John Lee Hooker, Albert Collins, Albert King, Stevie Vaughn, Eddie
Van Halen, Joe Satriani, Jerry Donahue, Baden Powell. Hey, I even liked
Alvin Lee.
> Also got a similar softspot for Leslie West....two fingered blues
> licks, awesome vibrato, tone and phrasing. Unbeatable.
Yep, LW has all of the above.
While we're at it, there are several local players in various towns I've
lived who were quite good and influential in my development. In
Pittsburgh for jazz there was Kenny Karsh, Cary DiNigris, and Andy Fite.
For blues/rock there was Brian Bassett, Warren King, and Glenn Pavone.
Here in Austin there are a pantload of great players. Eric Johnson,
Mitch Watkins, Glenn Rexach, Fred Walters, Billy White, Alan Haynes,
Junior Brown, Russ Scanlon, David Murray, David Grissom, Chris Duarte,
Dave Sebree, David Spann, Van Wilks. I'm sure I've forgotten as many as
I've listed.
Clay Moore
> About maybe 15 years back, I saw an incarnation of King Crimson on New
> Zealand TV and was quite amazed at Belew's command of feedback and
> general noise making/mayhem in the context of a extremely musical and
> exciting solo. I can't recall him picking any notes at all...he
> seemed to just play with his guitar's controls. I recall he later
> turned up on a Talking Heads' album doing the same kind of thing and
> again impressed me big time. Oddly, I have both Lone Rhino and Young
> Lions and don't like either particularly. Maybe this ties up with
> another post about the pitfalls for the sideman of the solo album.
Wha?? Didn't like Lone Rhino? Loved it!
>
> Would anyone on the NG own up to attending one of Fripp's costly
> Guitar Craft workshops? Did the added expense of buying a compulsory
> Ovation acoustic, "special exercises", regimented postures and
> exclusive Fripp guitar tuning system release y'all from your wicked
> pasts? Did you have to wear matching orange skivvies (not sure what
> the US equivalent in dress standards is for a skivvy...basically a
> long sleeved T-shirt with a high collar. "Black" ones are perenially
> popular with the local art fraternity)? What was the food like? Did
> you get to write home to Mom?
It sounds like you hold the same degree of scorn for Fripp's methods
that I do. From what I've read of his opinions I wouldn't give a nickel
to go to one of his workshops.
Tom Walls
>This has been my general experience regarding the abilities of many artists
>of other styles... You hear some fragment of their playing that sounds
>promising, but are disappointed when you seek it out further.... your jazz
>perspective doesn't allow you to tolerate easily a whole range of '
>short-comings'... things that don't seem apparent to their fan base....
> Perhaps this calls for a new thread on the guitarists from different
>styles who impress rmmgj'ers...even if our lists expose our lapses in taste
>... maybe we liked them a lot in the past, and still have a weak spot, even
>if we are now aware of their short-comings..... a healthy diet should be
>varied and tolerant of some junk food now and again.... I can think of
>some.... (tremble).....
>
>
>
Sunday night I was listening to Irish guitarist Arty McGlynn playing on tune
by singer Maureen (last name here) titled "The Irish Blues"(more popularly
known as "Do you love an apple?"). Arty, who was a founding member of Patrick
Street, was playing a nylon string acoustic. He was using a lot of blues scale
stuff but also using chromatic passing tones, his phrasing and comping were
real nice. I'm going to re-listen to my Patrick Street recordings and see if I
can hear any more jazz influenced stuff.
For those of you who haven't had much exposure to Irish, Scottish, Celtic
music; don't be put off by the New Agey sounding pablum that is the current
staple for atmospheric movie soundtracks -- the real Celtic music scene has a
whole bunch of really stunning players.
christopher john smith
Tom Walls <tw...@cornell.REMOVE.edu> wrote:
>Sunday night I was listening to Irish guitarist Arty McGlynn playing on tune
>by singer Maureen (last name here) titled "The Irish Blues"(more popularly
>known as "Do you love an apple?"). Arty, who was a founding member of Patrick
>Street, was playing a nylon string acoustic. He was using a lot of blues scale
>stuff but also using chromatic passing tones, his phrasing and comping were
>real nice. I'm going to re-listen to my Patrick Street recordings and see if I
>can hear any more jazz influenced stuff.
McGlynn's played both rock and country early on in his career. I love his
playing too; on the live-in-the-pub RealWorld disc called "Music at
Matt Molloy's" (flute-player formerly with Bothy Band/Planxty, now the
Chieftains), McGlynn's the "designated 'comper" for a range of melody
players. New tunes with unexpected twists and tunes every time out of the
chute; 90% of the time he didn't know what tune was coming next (or necessarily
know the tune, period) and he plays uniformly great. Accompanying in Irish
music, wherein the tunes are often _quite_ peculiar harmonically, and the
soloists almost never call the tunes in advance, is quite an exercise in
harmonizing modal tunes on the fly.
Another favorite: Chicago-based Dennis Cahill, who now works with fiddler
Martin Hayes. Encyclopedic harmonic sense, great touch and sense of phrasing.
What Herbie Hancock would sound like if reincarnated as an Irish guitarist.
Check 'em out.
cjs
--
Chris Smith - Lecturer in World Music at IU; Producer: "One World" at WFIU;
Musician: Altramar medieval music ensemble, Amandla (African jazz), Las
(Irish/Scots traditions); Author: "Celtic Backup"; (p) 812/855-2664
(WWW) http://www.indiana.edu/~smithcj "Do your best" -- Shakyamuni
JAlbin1916
>NORMAL TRANSMISSION WILL NOW RESUME......(bzzzz....bzzzz........) Hi
>Jazz fans,.....tonite's topic will be "Why is my buddy's archtop
>better than my own...."
>
>.......and to lead the discussion, we have ....
Scotty Moore -- who's archtop sounds better than mine, and who neatly segue's
us back.
A couple more names to add to the list
Richard Thompson
Tom Verlaine
Steve Winwood
Link Wray
The Ventures
Clapton
JFOG10
Ok...this is a pure fluff thread....so I just HAVE to join in!!
Richard Thompson
Ry Cooder
David Lindley
Ronnie Earl
Martin Simpson
Norman Blake
Jeff Beck
Marc Ribot
David Torn
Clarence White
well...there's about a million more....but 10 will suffice.
- Jim
Musical Mercenery
"Have Guitar, Will Travel"
jwwa...@my-dejanews.com
bhat...@mindspring.com wrote:
> "roo7flat5" <roo7...@c-link.com.au> wrote:
> > I can recall hearing jazz from steel players .... Buddy Emmons comes to
> >mind......I think with Bucky Pizzarelli...
>
> Buddy Emmons is THE player on steel, however the record you are
> referring to is with Doug Journigan.
>
> Emmons had a nice recording with Lenny Breau. It was not his best
> seller (naturally--they played too much jazz!!!!), but there is some
> great playing on it.
> I played the Nevada Ciruits in the 70's with the Judy Lynn Show and got to know a great player named Thumbs Carllile. Thumbs played a guitar laying in his lap in an open Eb. What a jazzy player he was. I was also at the International Steel Guitar Convention a few years back and heard another steel player named Paul Franklin playing with the top sesson guitar player in Nashville (Brent Mason) They were playing straight ahead jazz. Didn't draw a big crowd but they were incredible. I have known and still know many country players who can hold there own in any be-bop setting. There are some great players. By the way, the guy was right about Buddy Emmons. He has to be the King.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
jwwa...@my-dejanews.com
jwwa...@my-dejanews.com
bhat...@mindspring.com wrote:
> The discussion of country guitar here on this jazz group came as a bit
> of surprise and it was interesting to see some folks fess up to liking
> it!
>
> Keeping to the jazz guitar theme here, it is well known that jazz
> guitar has always been an inspiration to the players in Nashville.
> The country recordings of the 50s and 60s were often sprinkled with
> nice "bopish" guitar licks. Billy Byrd, Leon Rhodes and Jimmy Capps
> of the Ernest Tubb Texas Troubadours played some great swing guitar.
> Bob Wills great band had some of the finest jazz guitarist (both steel
> and "underarm" guitar 8-) you would ever want to hear. Recently
> deceased Eldon Shamblin and Jimmy Wyble played in this group as did
> many others.
I played the Nevada Circuit in the late 70's with the Judy Lynn Show. During
that time I met Thumbs Carllile who played a guitar laying on his lap. This
guy could play some of the jazziest guitar I ever heard in a so called
country setting. I ran into many other great players who were very jazz
oriented in their music. A few years ago I saw Paul Franklin (Steel) and
Brent Mason)top Nashville session man playing at the International Steel
Guitar COnvention in St. Louis. They were playing straight ahead Jazz.
Naturally, the attemdence was small for this group. They were incredible! I
think it was Duke Ellington who said there is only two kinds of music..god
and bad. How right he was. Jim
>
> Hank Garland!!!! Goodness this fellow could play jazz! The story
> goes that once the Stan Kenton band came to Nashville for a concert.
> Afterwards they went out to a local club to do some "cuttin" on the
> local "hick" musicians! Garland had a little group playing and just
> wasted them!!! He was a Django fan who worked hard to hone his jazz
> chops and before his career ending car accident recorded the
> ledgendary "Jazz Winds From a New Direction" that was a catalyst in
> George Benson's early career. This record was produced by another
> country guitar ledgend Grady Martin. Martin played on hundreds of
> recordings and though his own recordings are mostly very commercial
> efforts, he is still a great player.
>
> Harold Bradley tells the story of how he, Hank Garland, and others
> would go see Wes Montgomery play. Bradley himself, although most of
> his playing was done on the "tic-tac" Danelectro 6 string bass, had
> several Columbia recordings under his own name. These recordings
> feature some very nice jazz inspired, chord melody, playing aimed at
> the easy listening market.
>
> Chet Atkins early work is heavily influenced by Les Paul and Django.
>
> Jimmy Bryant! Barney Kessel said that Bryant had more chops than any
> jazz player he had ever heard.
>
> Roy Clark and Glen Campbell both play very jazz inspired guitar.
>
> The early style of country lent itself toward playing more fills along
> with the vocalist. These guys really got away with playing some nice
> stuff! The cardinal rule was that you NEVER step on the vocalist!!!
>
> The country music you hear these days is so formulized and sanitized
> that you don't get to hear as much jazz influenced playing as you used
> to. The guitar sounds have become so rock influenced. Country
> production sounds more like 70s pop music every day to my ears.
>
> I am sure that I have left out some players that deserve to be linked
> with the jazz world. Anybody else have some names??
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Dave the Dork
It is sad that a pair of great musicians can sit in a room and just flat
smoke to a hand full of people. Seems like the better you get, the less
people want to hear it.
A guy who knows three chords can keep a crowds attention all day. Ha
You could theoreticaly get to a point where your style is HONED to a point
to where you are the only one interested.
Dave
--
Don't Knock on death's door.
Ring the bell and run away.
Death really hates that.
jwwa...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6umpms$v7s$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <3600da0...@news.mindspring.com>,
>
> bhat...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> "roo7flat5" <roo7...@c-link.com.au> wrote:
>
>> > I can recall hearing jazz from steel players .... Buddy Emmons comes
to
>
>> >mind......I think with Bucky Pizzarelli...
>
>>
>
>> Buddy Emmons is THE player on steel, however the record you are
>
>> referring to is with Doug Journigan.
>
>>
>
>> Emmons had a nice recording with Lenny Breau. It was not his best
>
>> seller (naturally--they played too much jazz!!!!), but there is some
>
>> great playing on it.
>
>> I played the Nevada Ciruits in the 70's with the Judy Lynn Show and got
to know a great player named Thumbs Carllile. Thumbs played a guitar laying
in his lap in an open Eb. What a jazzy player he was. I was also at the
International Steel Guitar Convention a few years back and heard another
steel player named Paul Franklin playing with the top sesson guitar player
in Nashville (Brent Mason) They were playing straight ahead jazz. Didn't
draw a big crowd but they were incredible. I have known and still know many
country players who can hold there own in any be-bop setting. There are some
great players. By the way, the guy was right about Buddy Emmons. He has to
be the King.
>
>
>
Bob Valentine
Dave the Dork <dbo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>A guy who knows three chords can keep a crowds attention all day. Ha
>You could theoreticaly get to a point where your style is HONED to a point
>to where you are the only one interested.
>Dave
>
Not very theoretical at all, look at the state of modern classical music.
Bob Valentine
Bill Hatcher
>Thumbs was Great. Haven't heard of him in a while.
--
>Don't Knock on death's door.
>Ring the bell and run away.
>Death really hates that.
Thumbs died a few years ago. He was visiting a steel guitarist buddy
and had a heart attack. He was well thought of here in the Atlanta
area where he had lived before his demise.
Stan Gosnell
>> Buddy Emmons is THE player on steel, however the record you are
Herb Remington was playing jazz on steel long before Buddy Emmons.
Herb played with Bob Wills in the '40's, & the string section of
Remington, Tiny Moore, & Eldon Shamblin was amazing. They played all
kinds of swing & jazz, including Basie, Ellington, etc tunes. Throw
in Joe Holley on fiddle, & that was a great jazz band.
--
Regards,
Stan