Kurt Rosenwinkel on Day Jobs
steinbergerstyler
page=2&pagesize=20&forum=AMB_AP495900630&id=13403
"one summer i was home from Berklee and not doing much in Philly just
hanging around my parents place, when i decided i might as well take
my step father, Larry, up on this job offer that he got for me through
one of his aquaintences who owned a rotisserie chicken joint downtown.
it was one of those rush-hour, working-crowd lunch places that would
be madness for an hour and a half and then vacant immediately after.
the only jobs i had had up to that point were dish washer and bus-boy,
so it seemed fitting to continue in the restaurant business. plus i
wasnt doing anything at home except learning the Bach Lute Suites for
guitar and watching TV.
so i showed up for my first day, was fitted with a red apron and was
put to work. i cleared tables and brought up big vats of coleslaw from
the basement prep area to where this lady's husband- who was also
named Kurt- served the customers their rotisserie chicken and hot
plate items and sent them down the line where eventually his wife, the
lady, would ring them up at the cash register.
this guy was a real hard-ass, ordering people around like he was the
kingpin of a rotiserrie empire. but also wearing this big white chefs
hat like hes some kind of famous French chef or something. i think sub-
consciously he thought that since "rotisserie" was a french word it
meant he was automatically some kind of european culinary expert, just
like when i was 6 i rode the amtrak train down to chatanooga with my
family and because me and my brothers had just gotten matching adidas
sweat suits for christmas i though for sure everyone on the train must
think we're on the olympic gymnastics team.
i worked mostly at the cash register, or near the cash register. i
would stand next to the lady- kurts wife- who would ring the customers
up. i would ask if they would care for some soup and make sure they
had the correct plastic utensils and napkins for their meal. she would
give them each a small dose of her charming banter and then chide me
for not moving fast enough, or not getting the correct utensil combo.
people could see she was not please with me, but they were not a
source of mercy. they would look at me with a sneer and look back at
her with a roll of the eyes.
general disapproval was the atmosphere, and i was getting it from all
sides. while trying to do my cash register adjunct job correctly, Kurt
would order me to do something for him every few minutes. "Kurt, go
down and get me some more coleslaw"; "Kurt go take these pans down to
be cleaned"; Kurt fill this jug up with pickles". i would go down and
do one of those things and then come back up, when the lady would say
in that screechy whiney voice "KuUUrt, i thought i told you to wipe
those tables off" "what the hell are you doing"... i was like a ping
pong ball between these two sadistic lovers.
but the worst of all came when i was loitering by the cash register
trying to find the right moment to offer soup to people. the lady
would turn to me and scream at the top of her lungs to her husband
across the room, but right in my ear "KUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRT, SHE
ASKED FOR SWEEEEET POTAAAATOES, NOT MASHHHHED!!!", or some such thing.
after a few days of this my hands began to shake from the shell-shock
and pressure.
it was around that time when the lady called Larry up to tell him that
she thinks i am on drugs. because my hands are shaking.
one or two days later Kurt beckoned me over disapprovingly. this was
about 8 days into the job i guess. he told me i gotta shape up my act,
in so many words. i tried to describe to him how him and his wife were
commanding me to do different things at the same time and that i
couldnt possibly do both things before getting yelled at. he waved his
hand for me to shut up and then he said something which i will never
forget:
"Kurt, you're never going to make it in the chicken business if you
dont give it one hundred and ten percent".
my first thought was thinking back to the record i had just made with
Gary Burton, Jack DeJohnette and B.B King et al. i knew this was an
important moment, a fork in the road. he was right, i knew it. i
looked down at my red chicken apron which i had discraced. i took it
off while he watched me, lunch hour in full swing. i put it on the
glass counter over the hot plates, and i said "this sucks, i quit" and
walked out.
that was the last job i had.
oh wait- i did usher at BAM in brooklyn. that was pretty cool.
cheers,
Kurt"
tom walls
steinber...@gmail.com says...
>
>
> "Kurt, you're never going to make it in the chicken business if you
> dont give it one hundred and ten percent".
>
> my first thought was thinking back to the record i had just made with
> Gary Burton, Jack DeJohnette and B.B King et al. i knew this was an
> important moment, a fork in the road. he was right, i knew it. i
> looked down at my red chicken apron which i had discraced. i took it
> off while he watched me, lunch hour in full swing. i put it on the
> glass counter over the hot plates, and i said "this sucks, i quit" and
> walked out.
> that was the last job i had.
>
> oh wait- i did usher at BAM in brooklyn. that was pretty cool.
>
> cheers,
> Kurt"
>
>
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Rick Ross
"tom walls" <tw...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.209023066...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
> --
kevin...@gmail.com
>
> Eight days at the chicken joint. Dude paid some dues.
> --
> Tom Walls
> the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Tom wins. Thread over; nothing to see here.
Bahnzo
> Eight days at the chicken joint. Dude paid some dues.
> --
> Tom Walls
> the guy at the Temple of Zeus
No shit, I was thinking the same thing..lol. Poor guy, went to
berklee, recorded with famous people, and had to resort to
this...awww. Pussy. I once spent two years delivering pianos, working
80 hour weeks for minimum wage and no overtime. My back is permantly
fucked because of that. I really feel sorry for his white ass.
-Ken
stringswinger
"Bahnzo" <bahnz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1176921891.8...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Gerry
Pity him,. If Kurt had the kind of moxie you have, he might well have
become successful in the rotisserie chicken business.
--
///---
Tone
I don't get the heat. Its not like he didn't work his white ass off to
get as good as he did... to the point that he had better options than
working that day job. He didn't just luck into playing with people
that good who did him a favor and let him record with them and then
got a record contract because he was cute and danced well in videos.
The man has got to be a major butt busting hustler to be making a
living at jazz, not to mention his musicianship.
kevin...@gmail.com
Well, it's not like anyone else didn't either, *on top of* holding
down the dreaded day-gig, and meeting family responsibilities. I don't
feel any animosity towards the guy myself, and I love his playing and
love even more his writing, but first this article struck me as funny
and then Tom Walls' comment simply killed me.
I love hearing about the stories musicians have to tell, and to me
they're more interesting if they involve extramusical events and
settings. I know that that sort of thing can profoundly impact one's
artistic output, sometimes on a deeper level than all the shedding-
time in the world. Wasn't McCoy Tyner a cabbie for a short period,
post-Coltrane? I heard that somewhere.
kevin...@gmail.com
wrote:
> I know that that sort of thing can profoundly impact one's
> artistic output, sometimes on a deeper level than all the shedding-
> time in the world.
eeek....proofreading is your friend. I meant to put in that "I know
this on some kind of gut-level that I can't put my finger on", not
like "I know this and it's indisputable", which is how it reads now
that it's on display for all to see...
Gerry
<kevin...@gmail.com> said:
It read just fine either way.
--
///---
Gerry
>> No shit, I was thinking the same thing..lol. Poor guy, went to
>> berklee, recorded with famous people, and had to resort to
>> this...awww. Pussy. I once spent two years delivering pianos, working
>> 80 hour weeks for minimum wage and no overtime. My back is permantly
>> fucked because of that. I really feel sorry for his white ass.
>
> I don't get the heat. Its not like he didn't work his white ass off to
> get as good as he did...
My ass is white too. I'm not sure from the above if that's a blessing
or curse. I can sit on it pretty comfortably. I guess that's good.
--
///---
335p...@gmail.com
well, i guess he had other plans for his white ass. good for him.
steinbergerstyler
to make it in the chicken business, and some are destined to make it
in the music business...it's good to figure out which you are earlier
rather than later...
Joey Goldstein
I tried my hand at a couple of day jobs over the years.
For a very short time I tried to be a door to door salesman of Filter
Queen vacuum cleaners.
I went for a couple of weeks, after being trained by these maniacs,
without getting a single sale.
Then they sent me to this guy. He showed me how not only does this
vacuum cleaner suck air in, but it also blows air out the top.
He then attached the hose to the top, fitted a bowl of hash onto it and
we both got stoned out of our minds. He bought that Filter Queen. Then I
went back to the office and quit.
I could quit without being a total failure. I had sold at least 1 Filter
Queen!
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
pgrey
> Eight days at the chicken joint. Dude paid some dues.
Hey, I did two weeks at a Jack in the Box before telling the manager to
stuff it. Doesn't that mean I'm a 75% better guitar player than Kurt?
tom walls
pxg...@xearthlinkx.net says...
Joe Finn
......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
"steinbergerstyler" <steinber...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176915820.7...@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Joe Finn
>
> I tried my hand at a couple of day jobs over the years.
>
> For a very short time I tried to be a door to door salesman of Filter
> Queen vacuum cleaners.
> I went for a couple of weeks, after being trained by these maniacs,
> without getting a single sale.
> Then they sent me to this guy. He showed me how not only does this vacuum
> cleaner suck air in, but it also blows air out the top.
> He then attached the hose to the top, fitted a bowl of hash onto it and we
> both got stoned out of our minds. He bought that Filter Queen. Then I went
> back to the office and quit.
> I could quit without being a total failure. I had sold at least 1 Filter
> Queen!
That's a good story, Joey. Those vacuum cleaning gigs can really suck!
8-)
Where I grew up there are a lot of farms so when I was a kid I worked on
them now and then for pocket change. I worked on a dairy farm, a horse farm
with a kennel and even a chicken farm. On the chicken farm they had tens of
thousands of hens and naturally every day a few of them would die. One of my
chores was to empty the "dead box" every afternoon. Imagine my surprise when
one of the chickens flew out of the box as I was carrying it and ran away
one day. I guessed she wasn't quite ready for that great chicken coop in the
sky. ...........joe
oasysco
> In article <1176915820.716270.299...@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> steinbergersty...@gmail.com says...
>
> - Show quoted text -
All these posts denigrating chicken... I, for one love chicken.
Rotisserie style, fried, boiled, or baked by itself or on a spaghetti
plate. I can eat chicken cold, warm, or hot, spicy or not. Skin on,
skin off, in a biscuit, on a roll, by itself, cut up or whole. Yup, I
for one, love chicken... really!
Greg
Gerry
> All these posts denigrating chicken... I, for one love chicken.
> Rotisserie style, fried, boiled, or baked by itself or on a spaghetti
> plate. I can eat chicken cold, warm, or hot, spicy or not. Skin on,
> skin off, in a biscuit, on a roll, by itself, cut up or whole. Yup, I
> for one, love chicken... really!
Me too. So russle some up for us would ya? The fellows don't want to
stop playing to cook, so get to it. Show the bird how much you care for
it...
--
///---
charles robinson
hand it to the guy next to me just in time to get the next bottle from the
other guy.........eight hours a day (16 during the peak season)........I
lasted for about 6 months...Charlie
"steinbergerstyler" <steinber...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176915820.7...@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
tom walls
wilder...@yahoo.com says...
tom walls
robins...@comcast.net says...
>
> ..........a guy would hand me a plastic bottle...I'd screw a cap on it and
> hand it to the guy next to me just in time to get the next bottle from the
> other guy.........eight hours a day (16 during the peak season)........I
> lasted for about 6 months...Charlie
>
>
>
That was worse. Well, not exactly the same thing, I didn't screw a cap
on the side panel, but you get my meaning.
charles robinson
the money is that after a while you become hypnotized and travel to places
that you have never been before. In my case it became a form of meditation.
It was hard on the hands though and most of the time I would come home too
spaced out to play.
Charlie
"tom walls" <tw...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.20927c9bc...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
tom walls
robins...@comcast.net says...
> I guess the only good thing about those repetitive type of jobs other than
> the money is that after a while you become hypnotized and travel to places
> that you have never been before. In my case it became a form of meditation.
True. While working on a press -- big slab of iron slams down on a sheet
of steel, bending it into shape -- I taught myself to yodel. Even
yodelling at the top of my lungs, the guy standing next to me couldn't
hear me.
> It was hard on the hands though and most of the time I would come home too
> spaced out to play.
> Charlie
That's the big problem with day jobs in general. It takes a while to
unwind, then it's time for bed.
kagejs
really don't see what the big deal about Kurt is. I've heard a lot of
audio samples from his CDs and I just don't get it.
He's coming to Philly next week and I'm thinking about seeing him live
- perhaps I'm missing something. But at this point I don't know what
the hype is all about.
Josh
Joe Finn
news:2007041921001616807-somewhere@sunnycalif...
Gerry: All kidding aside, what did Rosenwinkle's remarks have to do with
chicken? I really didn't read it that way. Did you? To me the quality of the
interactions he experienced in a certain situation were the point of his
story. Almost everybody has been subjected to rudeness, discourtesy,
incivility, etc. This sort of thing doesn't occur only in the workplace.
I really enjoyed his story more for the broader implications.
...........joe
P.S. Please tell the waiter to serve mine fried. 8-)
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
> --
> ///---
>
Martacus
See him live. I saw him before buying his CDs, and I thought "Man,
he's WAY better live". And that's not a criticism of his CDs, he's a
killer live. I saw him in a trio setting, playing Round Midnight, Soul
Eyes, and a load of other standards. Just great.
mike
wrote:
>
> eeek....proofreading is your friend.
Proofreading is a GREAT day gig for musicians!
j...@isu.edu
> Pity him,. If Kurt had the kind of moxie you have, he might well have
> become successful in the rotisserie chicken business.
Gets my vote for post of the week.
On Apr 18, 6:17 pm, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> Then they sent me to this guy. He showed me how not only does this
> vacuum cleaner suck air in, but it also blows air out the top.
> He then attached the hose to the top, fitted a bowl of hash onto it and
> we both got stoned out of our minds. He bought that Filter Queen. Then I
> went back to the office and quit.
A damn close second.
RJ
There's a lot of great young players out there now days, Kurt is one of
them, don't miss the gig! You can't evaluate a player from sound bytes,
experience the music in a live setting.
RJ
charles robinson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrggvLjmQ04
Charlie
"tom walls" <tw...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.209289d5a...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
Greger Hoel
> True. While working on a press -- big slab of iron slams down on a sheet
> of steel, bending it into shape -- I taught myself to yodel. Even
> yodelling at the top of my lungs, the guy standing next to me couldn't
> hear me.
So, where are your clips?
> That's the big problem with day jobs in general. It takes a while to
> unwind, then it's time for bed.
That's the big problem with going outside in general. It takes a while to
unwind, then it's time for bed.
--
They lived like animals; they neither smoked nor drank
Dan Adler
I agree. You don't know what to expect of him live. I saw him with
Mark Turner, then doing standards with Peter Bernstein, then playing
free music with two saxes and drums (no bass) and then playing
brazilian with Toninho Horta. Each gig was completely different. He
seems to be able to retain a huge amount of musical info in his head.
I've never seen him read on a gig.
Keith Freeman
> unwind, then it's time for bed.
I'm glad I'm not the only one with that problem!
-Keith
Portable Changes, tips etc. at http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
e-mail only to keith DOT freeman AT orange DOT nl
momalle3
I don't understand what the point of this story is supposed to be--
that it sucks too work ina chicken joint if your boss is a jerk? That
it's better to play jazz? Umm, I kind of already knew that. Everybody
loves a "take this job and shove it" moment, but it's not like he made
some kind of big decision--he'd already recorded with some big
names,it was clearly a temporary job--are we supposed to believe he
was making the choice between counterman/jazz guitarist at that
moment, and salute his courage or something? Are we supposed to get
the impression that all day jobs are like working in the chicken
shack?
Based on the quality of the writing in this essay, my advice to
Rosenwinkel is "don't quit your day job!"
Five Sharp
much difference really.
#####
"momalle3" <moma...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1177092468.1...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
charles robinson
working on various aspects of your playing.
Charlie
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:c4b75$4629036c$d55d8e9b$23...@news.chello.nl...
Max Leggett
>
>
>I don't understand what the point of this story is supposed to be--
It was supposed to be a funny story, that's all. It's not philosophy,
just a musician joking about day gigs.
jim
"Max Leggett" <kidk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:46290944.14040278@shawnews...
working in a chicken joint?
Jim
jsea...@csc.cps.k12.il.us
> "Max Leggett" <kidkoo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I spent 4 summers working in a steel mill in Burns Harbor, Indiana.
LOTSA ambulances and body bags there, but on midnight shift, with no
bosses around, we'd have dragraces with the locomotives or take one of
them out and go fishing on Lake Michigan. Made me appreciate
education, musical and otherwise.
Gerry
> "Gerry" <some...@sunny.calif> wrote in message
> news:2007041921001616807-somewhere@sunnycalif...
>> On 2007-04-19 19:04:20 -0700, oasysco <wilder...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>> All these posts denigrating chicken... I, for one love chicken.
>>> Rotisserie style, fried, boiled, or baked by itself or on a spaghetti
>>> plate. I can eat chicken cold, warm, or hot, spicy or not. Skin on,
>>> skin off, in a biscuit, on a roll, by itself, cut up or whole. Yup, I
>>> for one, love chicken... really!
>>
>> Me too. So russle some up for us would ya? The fellows don't want to stop
>> playing to cook, so get to it. Show the bird how much you care for it...
>
>
> Gerry: All kidding aside, what did Rosenwinkle's remarks have to do with
> chicken? I really didn't read it that way. Did you?
If the kidding is aside by Greg and I must retire, I suppose. No, I was
kidding with Greg. The joke was this: He likes chicken, me and Kurt
don't have much interest in the actual production of it, just dining
Thank you. I'll be here all week.
> To me the quality of the interactions he experienced in a certain
> situation were the point of his story. Almost everybody has been
> subjected to rudeness, discourtesy,
> incivility, etc. This sort of thing doesn't occur only in the workplace.
>
> I really enjoyed his story more for the broader implications.
> ...........joe
>
> P.S. Please tell the waiter to serve mine fried. 8-)
--
///---
Jon Fox
news:x7adnXAlPYj8BrXb...@comcast.com...
> ..........a guy would hand me a plastic bottle...I'd screw a cap on it and
> hand it to the guy next to me just in time to get the next bottle from the
> other guy.........eight hours a day (16 during the peak season)........I
> lasted for about 6 months...Charlie
>
I had a job once where I would take a bunch of auto parts out of a box and
hang them on hooks. They would go through this big machine that would paint
and dry them, and I would go to the other side of the machine, take them off
the hooks and put them back in the box.
I lasted 1 day....
**********************************************
Jon Fox
Instructor of Commercial Music - Guitar
McLennan Community College
www.jonfoxjazz.com
aliaz
"Keith Freeman" <smtp.cablewanadoo.nl> schreef in bericht
news:Xns9918C98C61AC6k...@194.134.69.69...
> > That's the big problem with day jobs in general. It takes a while to
> > unwind, then it's time for bed.
>
> I'm glad I'm not the only one with that problem!
>
> -Keith
>
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <c4b75$4629036c$d55d8e9b$23...@news.chello.nl> :
>As if playing a pizza joint or wedding is so much better. I don't see that
>much difference really.
You keep saying that ####, I'm not sure why you want to believe that,
but trust me, there's a very big difference.
I played a one hour wedding gig on saturday, all jazz, great quartet,
great sounding space. Took home $250
The only time I've played at a pizza joint was when I had a regular
wed night solo gig at a little italian place for a couple of months
last year, Got to play/practice whatever I wanted, friendly people,
good wine on the break, decent $ for 2 hours on a Wed night and I got
to take home a pie. I miss that gig.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
http://www.kevinvansant.com
CDs, videos, mp3s, gigs, pics, lessons, info.
jim
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:560v23d9udei87ouv...@4ax.com...
favorite quartet, all jazz, great filet, great wine. What's not to love?
Jim
Joe Finn
>>As if playing a pizza joint or wedding is so much better. I don't see that
>>much difference really.
Let's not be too quick to look down our noses at a musician who is
performing in an informal setting. It has been my good fortune to have heard
various great [grammy winning] players at different restaurants, cafes,
receptions, etc. I've played a reception or two myself with people whose
names I'm sure you know. And even though they would not appreciate me naming
them here; let me just say that it happens all the time. It's a performing
art. Musicians play someplace every day, man. 365/7. The "day job" of a
player is music. This is the terrain in which we find ourselves deployed.
What do you think we do on off nights? parcheesi? ........joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
cl...@claymoore.com
> As if playing a pizza joint or wedding is so much better. I don't see that
> much difference really.
Hi Dick,
I guess it depends on the wedding or pizza joint.
Clay
cl...@claymoore.com
> has been my good fortune to have heard
> various great [grammy winning] players at different restaurants, cafes,
> receptions, etc. I've played a reception or two myself with people whose
> names I'm sure you know.
I was having a conversation a long time ago with two friends, a semi-
pro jazz piano player and a retired jazz guitarist who had shared a
loft in NY with some guys who are now household names in the jazz
world. The pianist was an intel officer in the Air Force, and he was
talking about how he wouldn't lower himself to play any kind of
commercial gigs. My other buddy thought about this for a second, and
replied that when he was living in the loft these guys all took
wedding gigs, bar mitzvahs, and the whatever gigs came along. "And you
know what?" he continued, "they were the best qualified players for
the jobs." Work is work. It's what we do.
Clay
Gerry
>> As if playing a pizza joint or wedding is so much better. I don't see that
>> much difference really.
>
> I guess it depends on the wedding or pizza joint.
Here's some joints I might prefer to make pizza in that to play.
Whether it's better or worse one is a job performed by a musician, the
other is a job performed by an employee in a pizza joint. That's a
notable distinction. That said, either job could be rewarding or a
burden depending on the specifics, attitude, etc.
There is a Chinese joint near my local pub that's run by a guy that
works his own woks. Everything is made fresh and is amazingly good.
It's a tiny little place about two blocks from a hospital. There is
always somebody standing there in scrubs or a lab jacket waiting for an
order. If you quiz them they will gush about how great this guy is.
It's said that he operated a push-cart in Hong Kong for 10+ years. Now
he's got a clean, smart little joint and a die-hard following in
Orange, California. He works from 10 to 10 everyday but Sundays. I
was chatting with him after a customer left. "She come here Monday,
Wednesday, Friday--for FIVE years!", he said, holding up the
finger-count.
One day I noticed a sign on the door. I thought, oh hell, the guy's
gone under. No, it was a two week vacation. I kidded him about it,
saying he'd left a loyal following to eat chainfood and he laughed. He
pointed out that he worked almost 4 years without taking more than
Xmas, New Years and 4th of July off. Now he takes two weeks off, twice
a year, and goes home to visit relatives. Amazing.
He's a greak cook, loves his job and his fans love him.
--
///---
Keith Freeman
years ago. His pizzas were excellent - you'd could specify how much diavolo
you wanted - and his prices the lowest in town. Not many customers, though.
After a while we noticed he'd put his prices up and he told us 'I want to
be good man, but the Dutch don't trust the food if the prices are low'.
Soon after that he was gone...
Gerry
>> He's a greak cook, loves his job and his fans love him.
> We had a guy like that, a Kurd, who opened a little pizza joint here a few
> years ago. His pizzas were excellent - you'd could specify how much diavolo
> you wanted - and his prices the lowest in town. Not many customers, though.
> After a while we noticed he'd put his prices up and he told us 'I want to
> be good man, but the Dutch don't trust the food if the prices are low'.
> Soon after that he was gone...
I know it's WAY off topic, but there are so many amazing ethnic joints
in Orange County. Nancy and I spend or weekends wandering through
neighborhoods trying out curious food. It's like a mini-vacation.
--
///---
Joey Goldstein
> "Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote \>
>
>
>>> As if playing a pizza joint or wedding is so much better. I don't see that
>>> much difference really.
>
> Let's not be too quick to look down our noses at a musician who is
> performing in an informal setting. It has been my good fortune to have heard
> various great [grammy winning] players at different restaurants, cafes,
> receptions, etc. I've played a reception or two myself with people whose
> names I'm sure you know. And even though they would not appreciate me naming
> them here; let me just say that it happens all the time. It's a performing
> art. Musicians play someplace every day, man. 365/7. The "day job" of a
> player is music. This is the terrain in which we find ourselves deployed.
> What do you think we do on off nights? parcheesi? ........joe
>
>
When I was in Vegas I went to see Carl Fontanna, the *GREAT* trombone
player, play.
He was in a lounge in the middle of a casino. No walls. Surrounded by
ringing and glaring slot machines. The piano player played an electric
piano. About 3 people were actually listening to the band.
I talked to him on a break and said how pissed he must be to have to
play a shit gig like this. He was pissed alright, *at me*. He explained
how happy he was to be playing this music anywhere at all. It was a good
lesson.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
DougW
> Let's not be too quick to look down our noses at a musician who is
> performing in an informal setting.
I agree, Joe. One reason I'm moving back to the city out of the sticks
is that I really miss playing regular gigs, weddings, and jingles. I
know that if that's all I ever did and never had gigs with my band,
I'd feel differently. This weekend, I'm playing a private party and a
wedding, and a duo gig with a great singer at a bar where people are
loud and drunk. I don't do them often, but when I do it's fun. That's
how I made a living for a very long time and it's great to get in
there and play artisanal gigs without the pressure of "performing"
Five Sharp
jobs as inferior and ridiculous, like Rosenwinkel does. I have played
catered affairs (hated it) and I never felt much different than the waiter I
guess.
As an amateur I can afford to profoundly hate those types of gigs. I much
more prefer my day gig to playing venues like that. There are excellent day
jobs that bring much satisfaction you know ... especially the ones you have
to study for.
I sometimes sense a feeling of inferiority of pro players towards day jobs
and that triggered my response.
#####
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> schreef in bericht
news:46301a52$0$16381$8826...@free.teranews.com...
Derek
Kevin is referring to. No tux is a huge plus, not to mention the
pie. :-)
Five Sharp
basis. I mean no offense to Kevin or Joe or whoever does that for a living.
It's just not for me.
The only pro jazz guitar job I can imagine its teaching guitar at a
conservatory and nobody would want me for that :)
#####
"Derek" <de...@ycoaoffice.com> schreef in bericht
news:1177692858.0...@c18g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
Five Sharp
suck so much as an entertainer that I sometimes wonder why I play guitar at
all.
#####
<cl...@claymoore.com> schreef in bericht
news:1177601814.6...@r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Max Leggett
wrote:
>Sure. But it takes a certain attitude to do it. It's something I lack. I
>suck so much as an entertainer that I sometimes wonder why I play guitar at
>all.
I've done both, professional musician and day gig, and I was not cut
out to be a musician - all I wanted to do was play music. I didn't
like dealing with agents or club owners or festival organisers, I just
wanted to show up and play, so I should have been born with a trust
fund instead of a wooden spoon in my mouth. I remember a wedding
reception where I announced to the band that I was going to get drunk
in self defence. Once I realised that while music was wunnerful but
that the music business gave me the cheese, I went back to skool and
much preferred working a day gig and just showing up and playing when
I felt like it, rather than taking gigs I didn't enjoy - and I didn't
enjoy restaurants or receptions, and I never wanted to teach - just
so I could make the rent. This is just me - there are lots of people
on this list whose playing I admire who cheerfully do the kinds of
gigs I didn't like, and there are lots of players on this list who
prefer working a day gig. The downside of the day gig is that you
can't get as deeply into the music or your playing because there are 8
hours a day when you're not practicing or rehearsing or writing -
eating, breathing, and drinking music does get one focussed. The
downside of playing for a living, for me, was agents, club owners,
gigs I didn't much enjoy but had to take, living hand to mouth. But
like I say, this is just me. I'm an amateur in the original sense of
the word - someone who loves the music and tries to play it at the
highest level possible. Where was that trust fund when I needed it?
tom walls
> The
> downside of playing for a living, for me, was agents, club owners,
> gigs I didn't much enjoy but had to take,
>
"industry people" and journalists. I could never figure out what the *#
$** they were talking about.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
DougW
> I sometimes sense a feeling of inferiority of pro players towards day jobs
> and that triggered my response.
I think that for some artists, at some point, the day job does become
a soul-suck. But then, there are some people who would prefer any day
job to playing artisanal gigs at weddings and pizza joints. It varies
from person to person, regardless of ther amatuer/pro status.
cl...@claymoore.com
> Sure. But it takes a certain attitude to do it. It's something I lack. I
> suck so much as an entertainer that I sometimes wonder why I play guitar at
> all.
Dick, you don't give yourself enough credit. The vid you sent playing
with a Santa's hat was very entertaining.
Clay
pmfan57
>It varies
> from person to person, regardless of ther amatuer/pro status.
I don't know. Statements like that could start a flame war. ;-)
pmfan57
> kagejs wrote:
> > I hope this doesn't detract from the conversation too much, but I
> > really don't see what the big deal about Kurt is. I've heard a lot of
> > audio samples from his CDs and I just don't get it.
>
> > He's coming to Philly next week and I'm thinking about seeing him live
> > - perhaps I'm missing something. But at this point I don't know what
> > the hype is all about.
>
> > Josh
>
> There's a lot of great young players out there now days, Kurt is one of
> them, don't miss the gig! You can't evaluate a player from sound bytes,
> experience the music in a live setting.
>
> RJ
Well, can you evaluate him from listening, say, to all of his albums?
What if you LIKE him based on that? Would that be a poor or deficient
evaluation?
RJ
No, but I'm a big fan of live performance. "kagejs" made an evaluation
on just a set of sound clips, I encouraged him to take advantage of
seeing Kurt play live. One of the opportunities is tonight, I hope he
checks out the gig!
RJ
Max Leggett
Doug's right, but for some people dealing with agents and the various
impedimenta between me and playing is a soul-suck. But, and it's a big
but, no amateur [educated in the form and tries to play it at the
highest possible level] has ever made a blind bit of difference to the
music, whether it's jazz or renaissance music on period instruments or
shred metal. And, seeing as how I'm on a rant, I think it's imperative
that there are amateurs, be they in music, painting, poetry, whatever.
If we as a society abdicate responsibility for the arts to mere
entertainers, then we'll end up as a sullen, slatternly society with
no critical faculty, slavish to the whims of propagandists. You can
insert 'advertisers' for 'propagandists' if it makes you feel better,
but amateurs are the people who support cultural advances: they're the
ones who buy the CDs/books/paintings that make professionalism a going
concern. Amateurs - true amateurs - are the backbone of art.. Having
said that, I sure with I had a trust fund. I coulda been a contendah!!
pmfan57
I was joking. Seems hard to argue with "it varies from person to
person".
Max Leggett
wrote:
>>
>Doug's right, but for some people dealing with agents and the various
>impedimenta between me and playing is a soul-suck. But, and it's a big
>but, no amateur [educated in the form and tries to play it at the
>highest possible level] has ever made a blind bit of difference to the
>music,
Someone [hi Dan!] will mention Charles Ives, and he's the exception
that proves the rule. So there.
LOL!
Joe Finn
>
> I agree, Joe. One reason I'm moving back to the city out of the sticks
> is that I really miss playing regular gigs, weddings, and jingles. I
> know that if that's all I ever did and never had gigs with my band,
> I'd feel differently. This weekend, I'm playing a private party and a
> wedding, and a duo gig with a great singer at a bar where people are
> loud and drunk. I don't do them often, but when I do it's fun. That's
> how I made a living for a very long time and it's great to get in
> there and play artisanal gigs without the pressure of "performing"
Good luck with the move. I hope it works out for the best.
Your schedule sounds like it could have come off *my* calendar. The old saw
" The worst day fishin' beats the best day workin'. " captures my feeling
about this whole day job thing; but different strokes, right?
My main point on this topic is one people outside of music and other guys
with day jobs may never fully grasp. It's a hustle not unlike other avenues
of self employment. It's up to the individual himself to take control of his
own schedule. Yes, this means that not every gig is a concert hall, a master
session or a club with a $20 cover. .....joe
Joe Finn
> I am not putting that down. But I am a bit fed up with pros putting down
> day jobs as inferior and ridiculous, like Rosenwinkel does. I have played
> catered affairs (hated it) and I never felt much different than the waiter
> I guess.
>
> As an amateur I can afford to profoundly hate those types of gigs. I much
> more prefer my day gig to playing venues like that. There are excellent
> day jobs that bring much satisfaction you know ... especially the ones you
> have to study for.
>
> I sometimes sense a feeling of inferiority of pro players towards day jobs
> and that triggered my response.
Don't take this the wrong way but there is a big conflict in what you seem
to be saying here. On the one hand you are "fed up" with pros passing
judgment on what amateurs do to make ends meet and on the other hand you
"hate" some of the types of gigs that many pros routinely do to pay their
bills, stay busy, etc.
Besides, the "day job" that Rosenwinkle referred to was a temporary, entry
level position presumably for hourly pay with no benefits. This requires
little or no training and even less in terms of commitment. The types of
things we have to study for are another matter. Study requires dedication,
commitment, hard work, earning degrees, paying back student loans and all
the rest.
We all make choices in life. Someone who chose a degree and a career in
music may tend to look upon the musical endeavors of an amateur with a
degree and a career in business administration [or whatever] with some
amusement I suppose. So what? Somebody with a degree in English is going to
read what I've written here on this newsgroup some day and die laughing!!
8-)
billc...@hotmail.com
"you're never going to make it in the chicken business if you
dont give it one hundred and ten percent".
from what I've seen the same applies to the music business ...
Gerry
> I think that for some artists, at some point, the day job does become
> a soul-suck.
It certainly is for me sometimes. Nevertheless, I found playing Proud
Mary, yet again, to a room full of drunks and lonely people to be a
soul-suck, that neither provided as much money or much security.
--
///---
pmfan57
> "Five Sharp" <d.onst...@chello.nl> wrote
Plenty of famous jazz musicians had day jobs. Notably, Wes had to
work days at the post office I believe to support his large family. I
have read other similar stories as well. It's not as simple as pros
never work day jobs and anyone who does is necessarily an amateur.
(Although I'm quite sure Wes was thrilled when he started selling a
lot of records. Unfortunately for Wes, he did not like to fly and
drove a lot, possibly adding stress that may have led to his early
death.)
pmfan57
Another is the renowned pianist Denny Zeitlin, who is both a
practicing jazz musician and a practicing psychiatrist! Zeitlin is
definitely world class.
kagejs
I did, in fact, check out his gig here in Philly last night. Front row
seats (they always hook me up there - I feel like Norm from Cheers!).
I'm hesitant to tell you my thoughts for the simple reason that many
people on here (not saying you specifically) can't stand when someone
says something about their idols that isn't 100% positive.
Anyway, I got there early and was able to hear him warming up in
addition to hearing his show. It's obvious he's very talented. He has
an excellent technical facility, and the fact that he sings along as
he plays tell me that he's not just running scales and arpeggios... he
has great ears and is obviously playing what he hears in his head and
heart. That being said, however, as I walked away from the show I
couldn't help but be torn by what I heard. To be honest, his
improvisation got a little monotonous to my ears after a while. The
guy's lines didn't breathe for more than a half second at any given
time before launching into another huge flurry of notes.
I should add at this point that his playing reminded me very much of
later-period Trane. I can imagine that this is a huge compliment for
anyone :-) but for me I don't really "get" Trane's later stuff at this
point in my musical development. I'm fully willing to accept the fact
that at this point I don't understand what Trane (or Kurt in this
case) is doing harmonically, so II don't really think I can listen to
hour after hour of it.
Don't get me wrong... I enjoyed the show and I heard him do some
things that really impressed the hell out of me; not to mention the
fact that he has stellar players playing with him. I'm also torn
because I think Pat Martino has a similar approach to his playing
(long streams of notes directly from the subconscious) and I don't get
tired of hearing him play live.
The bottom line? I definitely want to hear more of Kurt's playing.
There is something there, and perhaps it's just where my head is
musically right now. I'm not thoroughly convinced that he's the Second
Coming, but I can't deny his talent. I'm willing to investigate his
music and playing more. There have been several players that I don't
like at first which end up becoming huge influences on my music, so at
the very least he deserves some more research.
Josh
tom walls
>
> I was joking. Seems hard to argue with "it varies from person to
> person".
It probably could be done if you really applied yourself. :-)
Kevin Van Sant
message <1177763051....@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> :
>The bottom line? I definitely want to hear more of Kurt's playing.
>There is something there, and perhaps it's just where my head is
>musically right now. I'm not thoroughly convinced that he's the Second
>Coming, but I can't deny his talent. I'm willing to investigate his
>music and playing more. There have been several players that I don't
>like at first which end up becoming huge influences on my music, so at
>the very least he deserves some more research.
>
>Josh
hi Josh, they can both be hard to find, but I suggest you seek out
Kurt's two early albums "Intuit" and "East Coast Love Affair". I'm
not trying to convert you, but since you seem to be trying to hear
Kurt with an open mind, I think you'll find these two albums a little
more accessible. Actually as much as I admire his writing and how
he's developed his concept. These two records are sill my favorite of
his. But then I always like to hear good interpretations of
standards.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
http://www.kevinvansant.com
CDs, videos, mp3s, gigs, pics, lessons, info.
tom walls
>
> Another is the renowned pianist Denny Zeitlin, who is both a
> practicing jazz musician and a practicing psychiatrist! Zeitlin is
> definitely world class.
Wasn't that trumpeter who played with Herbie Hancock's band (Eddie
Henderson?) a psychiatrist too? World class player. He alternately
retires from music/medicine from time to time. He could be used to for
either side of the dayjob argument.
Five Sharp
> music may tend to look upon the musical endeavors of an amateur with a
> degree and a career in business administration [or whatever] with some
> amusement I suppose. So what?
Sure. No problem here. But it goes the other way too. Some of the aspects of
playing out that are discussed here (busking, going around with a tip jar,
playing weddings) I find totally inconceivable on a personal level and are
therefore FOR ME on the same level as that Rosenwinkel chicken roast joint
job.
That's what I wanted to indicate in my initial reply.
You know, one man's heaven etc.
#####
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <444bb$463223c3$d55d8e9b$21...@news.chello.nl> :
>. There are excellent day
>jobs that bring much satisfaction you know ... especially the ones you have
>to study for.
Yeah, like music !!
Hey, anyone able to earn a living doing something they enjoy that
brings satisfaction, in music or not, is living right.
Tim McNamara
Gerry <some...@sunny.calif> wrote:
Soul-sucks are everywhere. The trick is to find day jobs and gigs that
aren't. Having a day job can let an artist avoid the soul-sucking gigs.
And there are day jobs that don't suck your soul out of you too. IMHO
there's (usually) no reason (or not much) for someone to get themselves
into a life of chronic soul-suck. Poverty is a soul-suck and trying to
make a living as a musician will often consign you to poverty.
As for folks working day jobs while being musicians... I personally know
one musician who doesn't have a day job. One out of dozens. Even folks
like Muddy Waters, Albert King, etc. had day jobs most of during much of
their musical careers.
At the height of jazz, people could get by without day jobs. After WWII
that became much less likely.
Five Sharp
######
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> schreef in bericht
news:s1i63396bhkrhi4hk...@4ax.com...
Five Sharp
succesful entertainer/musician.
#####
Five Sharp
Wasn't he an amateur for most of his life?
#####
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:1177757819.5...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
pmfan57
Yes. Tal was a professional sign painter. Don't you have the DVD
documentary, Dick?
Joey Goldstein
I never get any time to practice being a full-time musician.
I have no idea how I'd even get around to even touching the guitar if I
had a day job.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
> I never get any time to practice being a full-time musician.
> I have no idea how I'd even get around to even touching the guitar if I
> had a day job.
So I envy you guys who can pull it off.
RJ
> Hey RJ,
>
> I did, in fact, check out his gig here in Philly last night. Front row
> seats (they always hook me up there - I feel like Norm from Cheers!).
> I'm hesitant to tell you my thoughts for the simple reason that many
> people on here (not saying you specifically) can't stand when someone
> says something about their idols that isn't 100% positive.
I'm glad hear you went out to the gig! I dig what you're saying, as much as
I enjoy players like Rosenwinkel, Monder, Binney and the like, the music can
be a so dense with content at times that I'm overwhelmed. Sometimes I like
being overwhelmed, and other times it can become a blur, creating a feeling
of monotony. I just try to keep my ears open. Rosenwinkel is obviously a
talented guy, I hope he has a long career of music ahead of him!
RJ
Gerry
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
>> I never get any time to practice being a full-time musician.
>> I have no idea how I'd even get around to even touching the guitar if I
>> had a day job.
>
> So I envy you guys who can pull it off.
You have to really love it. I think folks always make time for what
they really love.
I know a guy who was raising two kids working two jobs and at the same
time, over 8 years, got a degree in psychology. Throughout he worked as
a foreman for an asphalt-laying crew and still does. Eventually he quit
the night/weekend job in the deli at the grocery store.
Then he went and got another degree in another field.
--
///---
sheets
>
> > I sometimes sense a feeling of inferiority of pro players towards day jobs
> > and that triggered my response.
>
> job to playing artisanal gigs at weddings and pizza joints. It varies
> from person to person, regardless of ther amatuer/pro status.
I love my day gig. ***BUT***...There's no doubt that it puts a crimp
in my development as a musician. Lately, I've been working 60-70 hours
a week on a project at my day-gig and even though I still try to get
2-3 hours a day of practice, I just can't maintain the high level of
playing that I'd like to. Nor do I find myself growing like I would be
otherwise. My opinion is that the best and most effective way of
developing as a player is to be totally immersed in music. Playing,
practicing, listening, etc. The day job is a compromise, no doubt...
That being said...How different is it to be a "pro" musician but to be
teaching 20-30 kids a week as a day job or even teaching a bunch of
kids in a community college type of environment? Not much in my
opinion. I did many years of teaching/playing to make ends meet and it
was a very frustrating way to make a living. I find myself more
peaceful about music when I can be more selective about which gigs to
take but it's a concious thing in my part and I realize I am giving up
something for that peace of mind.
I do want to say that I grow weary of the continual proselytizing by
some who consider themselves "pro" and attempting to use it as a
measure of one's suitability for membership in the elite club of jazz
but that's just me...
tom walls
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
> > I never get any time to practice being a full-time musician.
> > I have no idea how I'd even get around to even touching the guitar if I
> > had a day job.
>
> So I envy you guys who can pull it off.
>
> --
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
I wish I could claim to be one of those guys, but it's really hard for
me to keep up. Funny thing though, the last several months I've put
guitar on the back burner, but I've seen a lot of growth in my
playing. Seems like I've relaxed into a groove/approach that suits me.
Paul
On 4/28/07 1:22 PM, in article
1177780972.2...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "sheets"
<jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I do want to say that I grow weary of the continual proselytizing by
> some who consider themselves "pro" and attempting to use it as a
> measure of one's suitability for membership in the elite club of jazz
> but that's just me...
>
It's not just you. But ulimately music speaks louder than words.
Paul K
> Jaz
> www.sheetsofsound.net
>
Morey Richman
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:13h633dvgcifldf6e...@4ax.com...
> On 28 Apr 2007 05:24:11 -0700, kagejs <w.sa...@comcast.net> wrote in
> message <1177763051....@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> :
>
>
>>The bottom line? I definitely want to hear more of Kurt's playing.
>>There is something there, and perhaps it's just where my head is
>>musically right now. I'm not thoroughly convinced that he's the Second
>>Coming, but I can't deny his talent. I'm willing to investigate his
>>music and playing more. There have been several players that I don't
>>like at first which end up becoming huge influences on my music, so at
>>the very least he deserves some more research.
>>
>>Josh
>
> hi Josh, they can both be hard to find, but I suggest you seek out
> Kurt's two early albums "Intuit" and "East Coast Love Affair". I'm
> not trying to convert you, but since you seem to be trying to hear
> Kurt with an open mind, I think you'll find these two albums a little
> more accessible. Actually as much as I admire his writing and how
> he's developed his concept. These two records are sill my favorite of
> his. But then I always like to hear good interpretations of
> standards.
>
I would suggest looking for Chris Cheek's "I Wish I Knew". This is an all
standards disc, mostly ballads and I have never heard Kurt play better than
on this. Lots of partial chord comping, beautiful voicings etc.
pmfan57
I guess Wes and Zeitlin (and many other famous jazz players) don't get
into the club with their day jobs.
kagejs
Someone is going to lend me Intuit, which I'm looking forward to
hearing.
Josh
Gerry
> I do want to say that I grow weary of the continual proselytizing by
> some who consider themselves "pro" and attempting to use it as a
> measure of one's suitability for membership in the elite club of jazz
> but that's just me...
You are not alone.
--
///---
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <2007042821505316807-somewhere@sunnycalif> :
is that really something you guys feel like you run into
"continually"? I'd grow weary of it too, but I can't really think of
any time I've actually encountered it. Or if I have I just blow it
off and so it hasn't left a mark. I think people who are disposed
to cop an attitude are always going to find something to pump it up
with. So if it wasn't about this it would be something else.
I've run into plenty of name-droppers, but that's sort of a different
thing.
Kevin Van Sant
<moreyr...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
<kjSYh.142260$6m4.142087@pd7urf1no> :
>I would suggest looking for Chris Cheek's "I Wish I Knew". This is an all
>standards disc, mostly ballads and I have never heard Kurt play better than
>on this. Lots of partial chord comping, beautiful voicings etc.
I've got a Chris Cheek record called "Vine" with Mehldau and
Rosenwinkel but I didn't know about this one. Thanks for another good
tip.
Morey, do you have Fathead Newman's "Life" (w/ PB)?
(I feel I must return the challenge) :)