Chords built on 4ths
Ludwig77
What's the technical name for a chord that is built with only perfect
fourth (I'm not sure if that's the right name for a fourth interval,
like one going from G to C) intervals?
Also what are all of the interval names?
I know the following:
Half Step
Whole Step
Min 3rd
Maj 3rd
Augmented 4th
Perfect 4th?
Augmented 4th
Perfect 5th
Zank Frappa
In article <8d273a25.01110...@posting.google.com>,
Brian Wood
Your intervals are right, you're only missing M2, m2, dim5, M6, m6, M7, m7.
A half step would be a m2, a whole step a M2.
Brian Wood
"Ludwig77" <gregr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8d273a25.01110...@posting.google.com...
Max Leggett
>fourth (I'm not sure if that's the right name for a fourth interval,
G C F Bb. I'm no expert on it - others will be able to explain better.
>Also what are all of the interval names?
semitone - minor second; b9
tone - major second; diminished third; 9
3 semitones - augmented second; minor third; #9
4 semitones - major third, diminished fourth; 3
5 semitones - augmented third; perfect fourth; 4
6 semitones - augmnented fourth; diminished fifth; #11; b5
7 semitones - perfect fifth; diminished sixth; 5; bb6
8 semitones - augmented fifth; minor sixth; #5; b6
9 semitones - major sixth; diminished seventh; 6; bb7
10 semitones - augmented sixth; minor seventh; #6; b7
11 semitones - major seventh; 7
12 semitones - octave.
I never though of it in quite those terms before, and, looking at that
list, I can see there's an overload of superfluous information. If you
use the terms b9, 9, #9, 3, 4, b5 [or #11], 5, #5, 13, b7, and 7
you'll be on.
It looks confusing as hell to me, and I understand it. Not sure if
it's of an use to you or if it's what you need. Terminolgy can be
useful, though. Whenever I drop a righteous clanger I say, "Oh, man,
like I was playing a supoerlocrian over the tritone sub, y'know?" :)
Or I might say, "Oh man, like I was playing a #11 but the bass player
wouldn't know a lydian if it smacked him in the teeth."
Brian Wood
playing and "outside" and what may sound like a wrong note to you, is in
fact hip to my ears. ;)
Oh yeah, drummers don't play out of time either, they play "rubato." :)
Brian Wood
"Max Leggett" <mle...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3be30c2e...@news.sprint.ca...
James Kidwell
Ludwig77 wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> What's the technical name for a chord that is built with only perfect
> fourth (I'm not sure if that's the right name for a fourth interval,
> like one going from G to C) intervals?
Quartal
>
> Also what are all of the interval names?
>
> I know the following:
> Half Step
> Whole Step
> Min 3rd
> Maj 3rd
> Augmented 4th
> Perfect 4th?
> Augmented 4th
> Perfect 5th
Minor 6th
Major 6th
Minor 7th
Major 7th
Octave
Min 9 (b9)
Ma 9
..Continuing up to a 15th,but you'll never see chords with a numerical
suffix larger than a 13.
JK
Willie K.Yee, M.D.
>Usually called 'fourth chords' or 'quartal harmony'
>
Aside from using standard notation, is there a way to designate
quartal chords?
C F Bb Eb could be Cm sus 4 (no fifth) but that is a bit clumsy.
Maybe C4P (for perfect fourths)?
I will stop now, this is making my head hurt.
onlyserious
> I like the "righteous clanger" explanation. When I drop one, I just say I'm
> playing and "outside" and what may sound like a wrong note to you, is in
> fact hip to my ears. ;)
> Oh yeah, drummers don't play out of time either, they play "rubato." :)
> Brian Wood
That reminds me of some great advice I recieved while studying with
the sax player/educator Jim Grantham in S.F.: If you play a wrong
note while improvising--go back to it so folks think you did it on
purpose...
I specialize in clam chowder. OS
Joey Goldstein
"Willie K.Yee, M.D." wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:55:18 GMT, Zank Frappa <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> >Usually called 'fourth chords' or 'quartal harmony'
> >
>
> Aside from using standard notation, is there a way to designate
> quartal chords?
Not really. The form of shorthand we use for chord symbols is really made for terian chords (chords
built in 3rds) and alterations of tertian chords only (#5, sus4, maj6, etc.).
However, there are a handfull of tertian chord symbols which are routinely voiced with quartal voicings.
Cm11
is usually voiced (bottom to top)
C F Bb Eb
Any other permutations of these 4 notes will also have a quartal quality.
Cmaj7b5
is often voiced (bottom to top)
C Gb B E
Any other permutations of these 4 notes will also have a quartal quality.
C6(9)
is often voiced (bottom to top)
E A D G (ie. Em11 with C in the bass)
Any other permutations of these 4 notes will also have a quartal quality.
C7#5#9
is often voiced (bottom to top)
E Bb Eb Ab (ie. Emaj7b5 with C in the bass)
Any other permutations of these 4 notes will also have a quartal quality.
Cm6(9)
is often voiced (bottom to top)
Eb A D G (ie. Ebmaj7b5 with C in the bass)
Any other permutations of these 4 notes will also have a quartal quality.
etc.
There really are not that many quartal voicings in use. We only use stacks of perfect 4ths as well
as augmented 4ths. Diminished 4ths sound too much like major thirds and destroy the quartal texture.
Octave doubles are avoided for the most part.
C F Bb
C F B
C F# B
These are the only possible 3 note quartal voicings. And of course they can all be inverted in
several other permutations.
C F Bb Eb
C F Bb E
C F B E
C F# B E
C F# B F
These are the only possible 4 note quartal voicings. And of course they can all be inverted in
several other permutations.
Try each of the above voicings with all 12 tones of the chromatic scale in the bass and see if you
can come up with a tertian chord symbol that describes the sound.
Eg.
C F# B F with D in the bass can function as D7(#9 13) or Ab7(#9 13) with Ab in the bass.
Rarely do guitar players use 5 and 6 note quartal voicings but it can be done. These are much easier
on piano I think.
> C F Bb Eb could be Cm sus 4 (no fifth) but that is a bit clumsy.
>
> Maybe C4P (for perfect fourths)?
>
> I will stop now, this is making my head hurt.
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Paul Craven
________________
Paul Craven
Charlie Robinson
<< Aside from using standard notation, is there a way to designate
> quartal chords? >
========================
<< Not really. The form of shorthand we use for chord symbols is really made
for terian chords (chords
built in 3rds) and alterations of tertian chords only (#5, sus4, maj6, etc.).
>>
<< Joey Goldstein >>
========================
Yes there is a method by which you may indicate quartal chords: you can add the
letter Q after the symbol thus C(Q )etc. Also a number can be added after the Q
to indicate how many notes are in the chord i.e. C(Q5), (a five note C quartal
structure). This method can be found in the book "Jazz Improvisation" (Trent P.
Kynaston, Robert J. Ricci). I have added some refinements for my own charts but
to keep confusion down a knowledge of their method should suffice.
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or: <A HREF="http://rmmgj.iuma.com">http://rmmgj.iuma.com</A>
Joey Goldstein
Charlie Robinson wrote:
>
> << "Willie K.Yee, M.D." wrote: >>
>
> << Aside from using standard notation, is there a way to designate
> > quartal chords? >
> ========================
> << Not really. The form of shorthand we use for chord symbols is really made
> for terian chords (chords
> built in 3rds) and alterations of tertian chords only (#5, sus4, maj6, etc.).
> >>
> << Joey Goldstein >>
> ========================
> Yes there is a method by which you may indicate quartal chords: you can add the
> letter Q after the symbol thus C(Q )etc. Also a number can be added after the Q
> to indicate how many notes are in the chord i.e. C(Q5), (a five note C quartal
> structure). This method can be found in the book "Jazz Improvisation" (Trent P.
> Kynaston, Robert J. Ricci). I have added some refinements for my own charts but
> to keep confusion down a knowledge of their method should suffice.
Interesting. I assume that this only applies to voicings that use a stack of perfect 4ths only. Is
there a way to notate chords that use augmented 4ths?
Charlie Robinson
add the
Q
> to indicate how many notes are in the chord i.e. C(Q5), (a five note C
quartal
> structure). This method can be found in the book "Jazz Improvisation" (Trent
P.
> Kynaston, Robert J. Ricci). I have added some refinements for my own charts
but
Robinson
======================
Interesting. I assume that this only applies to voicings that use a stack of
perfect 4ths only. Is
there a way to notate chords that use augmented 4ths?
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
=========================
Kyneston and Ricci don't provide such a model but if you use the basic template
they give for quartal chords it's easy to improvise symbols for other
situations provided the players understand the Q concept.
Joey Goldstein
Charlie Robinson wrote:
>
> << > Yes there is a method by which you may indicate quartal chords: you can
> add the
> > letter Q after the symbol thus C (Q)etc. Also a number can be added after the
> Q
> > to indicate how many notes are in the chord i.e. C(Q5), (a five note C
> quartal
> > structure). This method can be found in the book "Jazz Improvisation" (Trent
> P.
> > Kynaston, Robert J. Ricci). I have added some refinements for my own charts
> but
> > to keep confusion down a knowledge of their method should suffice. Charlie
> Robinson
> ======================
> Interesting. I assume that this only applies to voicings that use a stack of
> perfect 4ths only. Is
> there a way to notate chords that use augmented 4ths?
> =========================
> Kyneston and Ricci don't provide such a model but if you use the basic template
> they give for quartal chords it's easy to improvise symbols for other
> situations provided the players understand the Q concept.
How so?
If C(Q4) means:
C F Bb Eb
how do you use the same system to notate:
C F B E
???
Josh Dougherty
> > =========================
> > Kyneston and Ricci don't provide such a model but if you use the basic template
> > they give for quartal chords it's easy to improvise symbols for other
> > situations provided the players understand the Q concept.
>
> How so?
> If C(Q4) means:
> C F Bb Eb
> how do you use the same system to notate:
> C F B E
> ???
You *could* make it so that you can have a postscript for an augmented
interval in a "Q" chord.
For instance:
CFBE could be: Q4(+2) - translation: "Q4" = 4 note quartal voicing,
and "+2" = augment the 2nd interval in the stack.
Now, this is certainly not an accepted or understood method, it's just
a hypothetical, but it could be done that way. Since we don't usually
use these kinds of symbols, the translation seems a bit elusive.
However, if we did start using these symbols, and were familiar with
the decifering procedure, Q4(+3) really isn't any more complex an
equation than something like C7#11.
Also, Quartal voicings don't really use more than one augmented 4th.
Right? So, the symbol would never have to get more complex than one
post-scripted alteration.
Maybe? What do ya think?
Josh
Joey Goldstein
Josh Dougherty wrote:
>
>
> Also, Quartal voicings don't really use more than one augmented 4th.
> Right?
Why not?
What's wrong with:
C F B E Bb
Joshua Dougherty
>
>
> Josh Dougherty wrote:
> >
> >
> > Also, Quartal voicings don't really use more than one augmented 4th.
> > Right?
>
> Why not?
Because usually the inclusion of an aug4 tends to be a means of accomodating a
diatonic
mode or scale. I didn't say it was impossible, but it would tend to be kinda
rare I think.
You're right though. If this were going to be used, I guess you'd want it to
be able to accomodate
unusual ones too.
> What's wrong with:
> C F B E Bb
> ???
It has three consecutive half steps which I think would tend to make it a
rarity.
If it comes up, you could do: Q5(+2 +4).
That's almost as complicated as this one could get because if you continue to
extend it, C-F-B-E-Bb-Eb ..wouldn't add any more alterations it would just make
it Q6, and
if you added another tritone (E instead of Eb) then you'd be doubling the same
note that's already there.
Beyond that, if you go to Ab it just makes it a Q7 with no more alterations.
If you go to A after the Eb, then you could
say that you have ways of notating it as tertian. The chord would be:
C-F-B-E-Bb-Eb-A.
You have a B7 in there, an Esus4, an Fmaj7, an Eb6sus2, Bmaj7b5, an Am ...etc.
You could do
it as some kind of tertian polychordal thing maybe. But with the Q thing,
you'd just have to
say: Q7(+2 +4 +6). Still, not much more complex than a C7(9 11 13). :) Then
there's always
the possibility of doing it as two chords...a quartal polychord. Whoa.
How far would we have to notate?? Would there be Q10's? You and I couldn't
play those,
and it's quite rare to see a tertian symbol that indicates any more than 6
intervals.
I don't know. It seems ok so far. Having it catch on is another matter
entirely though. I'd doubt it.
I couldn't wait for the threads on alt.guitar entitled "What the @!#$ is a Q6+3
chord?!".
Josh
--
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Charlie Robinson
C F Bb Eb
how do you use the same system to notate:
C F B E
???
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
-------------------
C^7(Q)