What 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7 is?
Manuel Martínez
to chords following Joey Goldstein's method (based in changing the less
quantity of pitches from one chord to the next).
I was looking in the books to give it a name but I couldn't find it.
Somebody knows it? Somebody uses it?
By the way, in the context over a passing maj7 chord it's sounds good to me.
Manuel
Wfsilva
>I was looking in the books to give it a name but I couldn't find it.
>Somebody knows it?
I was taught this scale is called "gypsy major scale". And it was used to
handle a bIImaj7 to Imaj7.
I don't use this any more but nothing wrong with it!
Bill.
Wfsilva
>handle a bIImaj7 to Imaj7.
>
Sorry, that should be bIIdom7 to Imaj7.
Bill.
Leo Herranen
> Sorry, that should be bIIdom7 to Imaj7.
No, it shouldn't :D You're talking about bII#6 to Imaj7, aren't you?
--
Leo Herranen|<her...@mbnet.fi>| 146114978 |
<http://juhani.exdecfinland.org/~herranen/>|
onlyserious
thirds contained within. Check this out:
http://www.andymilne.dial.pipex.com/Doubleha.shtml
"Manuel Mart nez" <mmre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e318b09$1...@newsflash.abo.fi>...
David Kotschessa
At first, when I didn't notice that the 3rd wasn't major, I thought
"duh, it's phrygian." The duh was on me when I noticed the major 3rd,
but just for the hell of it I did a literal search on "Major Phrygian"
and found a bunch of results, so that's probably one name for it.
I'm sure there'd be other names, but that's the name I'd stick with,
because, well, that's what it is to me. Other names would be too much
to think about.
Oh, here's one of the sites I found in my search BTW
http://www.geocities.com/trollstjerne/exoticscales.html.
It'd be nice if it wasn't just in ascii-tab, but nice site
nonetheless.
-Dave
JK2475
to chords following Joey Goldstein's method >>
Interesting, I've never seen a scale that has 3 consecutive half-steps in it
(7, 1, b2). But if you flat the 7th, you end up with a mode of the harmonic
minor scale - one that sounds good on any dominant chord resolving to a minor
chord. This is really useful when you need an altered dominant sound but want
to avoid a flatted 5th.
JK
IvanDRodriguez
Ivan
Jurupari
I've heard some of the bouzouki guys do that scale with a b3.
Clif
Joey Goldstein
onlyserious wrote:
>
> I've heard it called "double harmonic major" because of the two minor
> thirds contained within. Check this out:
> http://www.andymilne.dial.pipex.com/Doubleha.shtml
That name makes sense, but not for the reasons you give and i might just
call it 'double harmonic' rather than 'double harmonic major'.
1 b2 3 4 is called a 'harmonic tetrachord'.
This scale has two harmonic tetrachords separated by a whole tone.
The 'harmonic minor scale' has a minor tetrachord (1 2 b3 4) plus a
harmonic tetrachord separated by a whole tone.
C D Eb F
1 2 b3 4
G Ab B C
1 b2 3 4
The 'harmonic major scale' has a major tetrachord (1 2 3 4) plus a
harmonic tetrachord separated by a whole tone.
C D E F
1 2 3 4
G Ab B C
1 b2 3 4
So a logical name for a scale that has two harmonic tetrachords
separated by a whole tone might be the 'double harmonic scale'.
C Db E F
1 b2 3 4
G Ab B C
1 b2 3 4
Scales with consecutive semitones (eg. B C Db) are not used very much in
jazz though or in tonal music as a whole so trying to find a common name
for them is often pointless.
> "Manuel Mart nez" <mmre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e318b09$1...@newsflash.abo.fi>...
> > this scale 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7 comes up when I was trying to assign scales
> > to chords following Joey Goldstein's method (based in changing the less
> > quantity of pitches from one chord to the next).
> > I was looking in the books to give it a name but I couldn't find it.
> > Somebody knows it? Somebody uses it?
> > By the way, in the context over a passing maj7 chord it's sounds good to me.
> >
> > Manuel
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
<joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Joey Goldstein
> << this scale 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7 comes up when I was trying to assign scales
> to chords following Joey Goldstein's method >>
Who wrote the sentence above?
Please elborate. In what harmonic situation did this scale arise as a
logical choice for a chord-scale?
Wfsilva
Actually it is neither bIIdom7 nor bII#6, it is a bIImaj7. Starting the scale
on C, we would have Db to C which is a Maj7 interval.
Bill.
Manuel Martínez
quantity of pitches from one chord to the next).
David Kotschessa
I was wondering if that might be the case (mode of harmonic minor). I
was just too lazy to try and figure it out.
Joey Goldstein
> Manuel Martínez wrote:
>
> It was me :-) I'll try to explain it.
> I was working in a Pat Metheny's tune called "Goodbye" which is a
> ballad bossa. The tune has many tonality changes using mainly m7 and
> maj7 chords. I think you can use dorian and major/lydian for most of
> the chords but, as an exercise, I try to follow what you describes in
> your method (changing the less
> quantity of pitches from one chord to the next).
>
> It occurs in the section C where the changes are:
> C#m7 / F#m7 / Fmaj7#11 / Emaj7 C#m7 / Amaj7 / F#maj7 / etc...
OK. First off. That method of mine is just a set of guide lines to help
you arrive at a chord-scale relationship that retains as much of the key
feeling as possible, i.e. the non chord tones are derived from the scale
of the key of the music at whatever point in the tune the chord occurs.
But you have to know what key you're in and this is not a concrete
method that always yields the best results. You can never expect to be
able to follow a set of rules or some formula and have great music come
out. It doesn't work that way.
> So, starting with dorian (chord tones in red):
> C#m7: Dorian--> G# A# B C# D# E F#
What is the key signature on the music? The changes you have shown me
look like the tune is probably in the key of either C# min or E maj. If
so, you could use C# dorian here but most folks would use C# minor
scales like aeolian or jazz minor.
Why do you list this scale, and all of these scales starting on G#? Do
you think the tune is in the key of G# or something?
> F#m7: Dorian--> G# A B C# D# E F#
F# dorian is probably the strongest choice here.
> Fmaj7#11: Lydian #2--> G# A B C D E F (I change to D because the 6th
> became a 7th)
F lyd#2 can be used and I understand why you are retaining the G# and
why you experimented with D# but F lydian will sound more 'normal'.
Lyd#2 is a exotic sound. Modes of the harmonic minor scale tend to sound
somewhat exotic due to thenodd sounding aug 2nd interval between Sb6 and
S7. The Western ear tends to lean towards modes of the diatonic scale as
being the most stable sounds and the harmonic minor and mel min scales
are not derived from the diatonic set. You can try F lyd#2 or F lyd#2#6
here but most folks would use F lyd. F lyd has the effect of introducing
*more* rather than less chromaticism into the key which is often the
desired effect of a chord with chromatics in either the bass or the main
body of the chord. I.e. Sometimes using notes from outside of the key in
your chord-scales is good thing. You have to use your ears.
> Emaj7: Here we are--> G# A B C D# E F 'double harmonic'
Try E major. From I can see you're in the key of E major.
The more correct use of the methodology I am advocating would be to
retain as much of the E major key feeling on the Fmaj7 chord by using F lyd#2#6:
F A C E F
G# B D#
Tb13 or Tb7 is one of my favorite exotic sounding tensions on maj7
chords. Don't be shy. So is T#9. They sound best when played above the
chord's maj 7th interval.
F A C E G# B D#
> C#m7: Aeolian--> G# A B C# D# E F# (I change to F# because the 4th
> became a 3th)
The key feeling to the relationship between E and C#m will be very
strong here.
> etc...
>
> I asked about that scale because in a context of many dorians and
> majors it sounds good to me as a variation.
> (Maybe the exercise isn't correct, I'm only a student).
We're all students.
Tom Lippincott
formula would be the fifth mode of that scale.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Leo Herranen
>>No, it shouldn't :D You're talking about bII#6 to Imaj7, aren't you?
>
> Actually it is neither bIIdom7 nor bII#6, it is a bIImaj7. Starting the
> scale on C, we would have Db to C which is a Maj7 interval.
Yes, that's what I meant. The chord with a dom7 sound is actually a #6.
So there's both.
Wfsilva
I see your point.
I wrote these messages after playing a job last night..... I was just too tired
to think!
Bill.
Joey Goldstein
Tom Lippincott wrote:
>
> I've always heard this scale referred to as Hungarian minor, although this
> formula would be the fifth mode of that scale.
I always thought that Hung min (no jokes about scales with big dicks
here OK? <g>) was:
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 7 1
C Db Eb F G Ab B C
Let's see the 5th mode of the scale in question:
C Db E F G Ab B C
would be
G Ab B C Db E F G
1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7 1 (no match...unless my formula for Hung min is wrong)
or the scale that the scale in question would be the 5th mode of would be:
F G Ab B C Db E F
1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7 1 (no match)
Am I missing something Tom?
> Tom Lippincott
> Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
> audio samples, articles, CD's at:
> http://www.tomlippincott.com
--
Jurupari
of those things I learned and never used. I read somewhere or other that Trane
had experimented a little with it.
Clif
Joey Goldstein
Jurupari wrote:
>
> I learned hungarian minor as 1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7.
Hey you guys are ganging up on me! <g>
I stand corrected then.
> I don't use it, it's just one
> of those things I learned and never used. I read somewhere or other that Trane
> had experimented a little with it.
>
> Clif
--
Joey Goldstein
for a couple of months now and it has really helped with my playing
position problems. I ended up Velcro-ing it to the bottom of my Tele for
stability. Glad it's just a cheap MIM guitar.
Manuel Martínez
I suspect that this tune isn't the best for use this method too. I was just
experimenting.
The key of the tune is G maj. I wrote the scale starting in G because of
that. You can play Gmaj for most part of section A. But the develop of the
tune is more like parallels m7 and maj7, not typical II-V, etc.
One question, this method was developed by you or you learned or studied it
with somebody else? People out there uses it? I have to say that I like it,
it looks very musical to me.
Manuel
Joey Goldstein
"Manuel Martínez" wrote:
>
> Thanks. I see the point. It's more elaborated than only applying the rules.
> I suspect that this tune isn't the best for use this method too. I was just
> experimenting.
> The key of the tune is G maj. I wrote the scale starting in G because of
> that. You can play Gmaj for most part of section A. But the develop of the
> tune is more like parallels m7 and maj7, not typical II-V, etc.
> One question, this method was developed by you or you learned or studied it
> with somebody else? People out there uses it? I have to say that I like it,
> it looks very musical to me.
Thanks. It's usually not presented the same way as I do in most jazz
theory books but the results are usually pretty much the same. Most
books about chord-scales deal with functional harmonic designations and
asign a particular scale to say, IIm7 or VIm7, V7 or V7 of IIm, etc. I
have a little subsection about this approach in my book as well.
Nettles & Graf in their book The Chord-Scale Theory And Jazz Harmony
frequently do things along the same lines as me, i.e. consciously
choosing the non chord tones from the scale of the key, whenever practical.
--
Tom Lippincott
>>
>> I've always heard this scale referred to as Hungarian minor, although this
>> formula would be the fifth mode of that scale.
>
>I always thought that Hung min (no jokes about scales with big dicks
>here OK? <g>)
how about well endowed Chinese guys?
was:
>1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 7 1
>C Db Eb F G Ab B C
>
>Let's see the 5th mode of the scale in question:
>C Db E F G Ab B C
>would be
>G Ab B C Db E F G
>1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7 1 (no match...unless my formula for Hung min is wrong)
>or the scale that the scale in question would be the 5th mode of would be:
>F G Ab B C Db E F
>1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7 1 (no match)
>
>Am I missing something Tom?
>
I don't know; I pretty much always defer to you when it comes to anything that
has to do with music theory since you're familiar with so many of those well
respected music theory texts. The only ones I've ever been through are the
ones we used for high school and college music theory by Robert W. Ottman (I
think?). I don't remember my French from my German sixth anymore either; I
think I must have sold my theory books back to the campus bookstore to pay for
groceries at some point 'cause I don't have 'em anymore.
So anyway my comment about the "Wel Hung Min" scale wasn't meant to be
contradictory, I just hadn't heard anyone else mention that name as applied to
that scale, and someone once showed me that scale and called it Hungarian minor
(and I'm pretty sure since then I've seen it called that in a book somewhere).
I have also heard it referred to as double harmonic minor as you or maybe
someone else mentioned.
Jurupari
tetrachord or whatever.
Clif
Joey Goldstein
If
1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7 1
eg. F G Ab B C Db E F
is the intervallic formula for hungarian minor
then
1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7 1
eg. C Db E F G Ab B C
could be seen as a parent scale, yes.
But in no way is
1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7 1
any kind of a minor scale.
The names being offerd are 'double harmonic major' or simply 'double harmonic'.
Just trying to be thorough.
Jurupari
>But in no way is
>1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7 1
>any kind of a minor scale.
>The names being offerd are 'double harmonic major' or simply 'double
>harmonic'.
True - I picked that up off a website because it looked like there might be
more than one hungarian minor. the scale was called minor but it's an obvious
misnomer.
To make it worse, the hungarian minor is apparently also called an algerian
minor.
Whatever it's called it's the fourth degree of the double harmonic (gonna use
the scientific term here) thingy.
Clif
Joey Goldstein
"Manuel Martínez" wrote:
>
> this scale 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7 comes up when I was trying to assign scales
> to chords following Joey Goldstein's method (based in changing the less
> quantity of pitches from one chord to the next).
> I was looking in the books to give it a name but I couldn't find it.
> Somebody knows it? Somebody uses it?
> By the way, in the context over a passing maj7 chord it's sounds good to me.
>
> Manuel
--
Max Leggett
Elektrik Hendrik
maiga...@gmail.com
I'm not sertain on what it is used with, but my teacher taught me that scale to improvise on top of b7#9 chords (bc both scale and chord create tension)
It sounds awkward but I think that's the point too
Nil
rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz:
wherever you want to imply the sound of a dominant chord leading to
that sort of minor. You'll often seen that used in a (major key) V7/iii
or V7/iv situation. A V7#9 chord is slightly out-of-key in that
context, but should sound good. Another choice could be an "Altered"
scale (the 7th mode of the Harmonic minor), which includes both the b9
and #9, as well as the third (be aware that the chord's natural 5 and
the scale's b5 could clash.)
However, if you're in an extended vamp on a V7#9 chord that's not
resolving somewhere, I think your scale can sound kind of awkward. In
that situaton I usually a blues thing going on. Other scales will make
it sound more "out" or more awkward, which might be just what you want.
Anon Anon
1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
It's the go-to scale on a V7b9 chord in minor keys.
But it doesn't contain the #9.
On both dom7b9 and dom7#9 chords I use an 8-note version of that scale
that simply adds the #9 into the mix.
1 b2 b3 3 4 5 b6 b7
I use to call it "mixolydian b2b6(add#2)" but never told anyone so they
wouldn't laugh at me.
At Berklee, iirc, they called this "the b9 scale" because it's the scale
most closely associated with a dom7b9 chord, especially as V7 in minor keys.
It can be seen as a mode, or rotation, of one of the so-called "bebop
scales".
E.g. The G7b9 scale is:
G Ab Bb B C D Eb F
It uses the same notes as the Eb maj bebop scale (also used on Cm7):
Eb F G Ab Bb B C D
8-note scales tend to be a bit more unwieldy/awkward than 7-note scales.
To reduce it back to 7-notes, try leaving out the 4th.
1 b2 b3 3 5 b6 b7
This way you'll have a 7-note scale with no avoid-notes.
G Ab Bb B D Eb F can be seen as the 3rd mode of Eb harmonic major:
Eb F G Ab Bb B D
Sometimes keeping the 4th and leaving out the maj 3rd is cool too, which
amounts to the phrygian scale from the root of the dom7b9 chords.
But you'll still have to deal with the 4th as an avoid-note.
And of course our original mix b2b6 scale was 7-notes as well.
Hope that helps.
[Note: You could also think of the altered dominant scale (a 7-note
scale) as being "the b9 scale" with b5/#4 replacing both the P4th and
the P5th.
E.g. G altered dominant is:
G Ab Bb B Db/C# Eb F]
jimmybruno
TD
ott...@hotmail.com
The flat 7th is just a bonus!
Bg.
Lord Valve
> On Friday, December 8, 2017 at 2:35:26 PM UTC-5, maiga...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Ive been taught it is called Mixolidian b9 b13
> > I'm not sertain on what it is used with, but my teacher taught me that scale to improvise on top of b7#9 chords (bc both scale and chord create tension)
> > It sounds awkward but I think that's the point too
>
> You got it all wrong. Jazz is not a particular scale over a particular chord.
How do you know what the comping person is going to play.
that you don't. You gotta listen! That's the FUN
part!
You are lost in academia. That type thinking only exists in a book
Academia and the Real Book killed Jazz.
Lord Valve, ThD
Organist
Gerry
> I dunno, to me it just sounds like a C triad moving up and down a 1/2 step :-).
> The flat 7th is just a bonus!
ott...@hotmail.com
> On 2017-12-11 02:13:46 +0000, >
> > The flat 7th is just a bonus!
>
> It's a natural 7.
Thanks, Duh!
Bg
Gerry
challenging. Now I just flat a 2nd or sharp a 5 when I please. It
seems to work almost as good as applying an entire scale and then only
using the flat 2nd before the harmony changes again.
ott...@hotmail.com
>
> It's a natural 7.
Bg
shubhp...@gmail.com
> this scale 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7 comes up when I was trying to assign scales
> to chords following Joey Goldstein's method (based in changing the less
> quantity of pitches from one chord to the next).
> I was looking in the books to give it a name but I couldn't find it.
> Somebody knows it? Somebody uses it?
> By the way, in the context over a passing maj7 chord it's sounds good to me.
>
> Manuel
Defiant
for the last SEVENTEEN YEARS waiting for your brilliant
response! Well done!
<fart>