Just got back from seeing Bireli (wow!)
pmfan57
I went with Dan Adler and a couple of other friends.
It was an experience that is difficult, actually impossible, to
describe adequately in words; but I'll try.
Bireli played strictly acoustic, on a gypsy style guitar. His playing
was of such a high level of technique and inspiration that I am
convinced he is the greatest guitarist in the plectrum style who has
ever lived. From the lowest open E string, to the highest harmonic at
the bridge on the high E string, Bireli had the greatest command of the
guitar of anyone I have ever seen or heard, in the plectrum style at
least. I have seen him at various times and he has reached new
heights, for him or for anyone. He was able to flawlessly execute
chords with Lenny Breau harmonics, Tal style artificial harmonic single
note lines, stupendous sweeping arpeggiate runs, and picking that was
as fast and clean as I have ever seen.
But that's only half the story, his improvisations were indescribable.
Each note and phrase followed the one before it as inexorably as the
notes of a Bach invention. I wanted his solos to go on and on because
of the unbelievable invention. He never ran out of ideas and executed
each with absolute and total command. His comping was amazing as well,
driving the rhythm section like a locomotive.
He played a solo encore that was like he was channeling Chopin on the
guitar. I am proud that the instrument I love can be played at this
level, although I can never hope to play remotely as well as him.
Run, do not walk, to see him if you are train, car or even small plane
distance from New York. You guys in Philadelphia, get on the Turnpike.
I think Dan will follow with his review as well.
hogrider
greatest living guitar player of any genre, period. If you have seen him
you won't argue the point. It doesn't matter if he is playing a Selmer
style guitar, a Gibson Archtop or a superstrat, he is a legend for our age.
I have had the good fortune in my life to see (several times in many cases)
some of our legends, Joe Pass, Chuck Wayne, Tal Farlow, Joe Puma, Herb
Ellis, Emily Remler, Charley Byrd, Barney Kessel among others. If you have
the oppertunity to see Bireli, don't pass it by, for in later years, you
will surely regret it. I feel similarly about Jim Hall and Pat Martino, two
living legends who also should be sought out.
Okay, I'm rambling and even pontificating here, but let me make a simple
point. Bireli Lagrene is the world's greatest living guitar player.
Cheers,
Marc
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1115869276.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
RB
Bireli is like the Pagannini of the gtr. I have reached the stage with
him now where I almost expect him to defy reality and pull out yet
another impossible thing. Whether that be playing bass like Jaco or
some otherworldly gtr thing, I almost expect it now. It wouldnt
surprise me if he can play classical gtr and flamenco like a MOFO. He
is one of those gtrists who must absolutely under NO circumstances EVER
be "challenged" in a cutting comp. You can be SURE you will come off
5th best...Which is why I have such hi regard for Sylvain Luc, who
actually hangs with Bireli and sometimes outshines him on that
extraordinary duo vid...
Did you see any well known gtr players in the audience? When Dan and I
visited Birdland to hear Malone and Martino, we saw:
Wilkins, Juris, Benson, Stryker and there were prolly others too
pmfan57
I had my eyes glued on Bireli, having never seen such utter mastery
before (I have seen almost everybody alive to see. And I've seen
Bireli since he was 17 several times.) Effortless, Oscar Peterson like
chops. He play above the cutout without the use of his left hand thumb
faster and more solidly than anybody else plays lower down the neck
with the thumb for support.
I hope all the guitarists that can go see him do.
Dan Adler
> I just returned home from having seen Bireli and his group at
Iridium.
> I went with Dan Adler and a couple of other friends.
>
> It was an experience that is difficult, actually impossible, to
> describe adequately in words; but I'll try.
Joe,
You described it well. As you know, before the concert I had the
attitude of some of the others on the pre-show thread, where I thought
he was more flash than music, but seeing him live changed all that.
First, it's impossible to ignore the level of instrumental and musical
mastery that Bireli has achieved. He can do anything on the instrument,
and he can execute any idea that comes into his mind faster than you
can digest it. Also, his ideas have extreme clarity. There was never a
moment where I felt like he was wiggling his fingers aimlessly.
Everything comes from a musical place, and it's just so much fun to
watch him. EVERYONE in the audience had a big wide smile on their face
the whole time, and people were just ooh-ing and ahh-ing all the time.
This is a huge contrast to most jazz gigs, where you see a number of
fanatics who are really into it, but most of the audience seems
disengaged or bored. Here, everyone was totally into it, and that in
itself contains a lesson, I think.
Also, I am always captivated by the amount of emotion and passion the
gypsy guitarists are able to convey. That's probably the single most
appealing thing I find in this style.
The other intersting thing was the sax player. He was playing some
interesting combination of Liebman/Brecker with traditional gypsy, and
the combination made me realize why I find these two extreme styles so
similar (though I know most of you disagree...)
Anyway, I can't imagine a more fun night, and I went home to shamefully
work on my arpeggios :-)
Bill Ribas
"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
news:1115908849....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
pmfan57
Bill Ribas
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1115910188.4...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Keith Freeman
> work on my arpeggios :-)
That would have been about the same time I decided to have a listen to
Chick Corea's Now He Sings LP for the first time in years - with the
transcription in front of me. Players who can go that fast (and still keep
it musical) should be banned! ;-}
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl
hans van leeuwen
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:1115910188.4...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The best $30 music charge I ever spent.
>
I see, you bought the Bireli trick.... ;-)
Seriously though, he is amazing indeed, but isn't that the overwhelmed
feeling you will always have after a concert of one of the greats,
Metheny-trio, Martino, Benson, van Ruller (here in Holland!)- and in the
past: Farlow, Montgomery, Pass, etc.etc.
Hans
pmfan57
the players you mentioned except for Ruller.
And, in addition to the "feeling," which was shared by all present, I
evaluated objectively the skill involved and it surpasses all other
guitar players I have ever seen with the possible exception of Paco de
Lucia.
As to improvisational skill, it was just as Dan Adler said, and no
tricks were involved.
Like watching Mozart being channeled through the guitar.
pmfan57
unknowngu...@comcast.net
Have you seen (or heard) Stochelo Rosenberg? He plays with Birelli on
an album or two, and as great as Birelli is, my impression is that
Stochelo actually raises the bar a few notches beyond Birelli.
However, I haven't actually seen either of them live, and would be
interested in hearing what someone who had seen them both had to say.
Five Sharp
live many times. As far as his gypsy jazz style playing is concerned, he's
probably very much in the same league. Stochelo is one of the best gypsy
style players in the world, no doubt about that. He does not play mainstream
jazz though, like Bireli.
The unique thing about Bireli is that he belongs to the world top in both
gypsy style and bebop playing. That's unheard of ...
There are quite a few great gypsy jazz players from the Sinti Tribe in the
Netherlands. Jimmy Rosenberg is very high up there too ...
#####
<unknowngu...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:1115920017.1...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
pmfan57
genius that Bireli is.
You can see on the Bireli and friends live DVD the difference. Bireli
is so much more full of fire and life. Stocholo is also strictly
playing the "Django style". Whereas Bireli is creating lines that are
much more modern and using techniques from other forms of music.
And last night, Bireli played things technically that even Stocholo
could not touch from what I've seen and heard from Stocholo. So while
there may have been a time several years ago when Stocholo may have
arguably surpassed Bireli in some ways technically (only possibly
consistent clean picking), it is no longer the case (unless Stocholo
has been practicing his butt off). As for content, it never was the
case.
I wish I had a video clip of the solo piece Bireli ended with. You
could have compared it with the solo clip by Stocholo on the
djangobooks web site and seen the difference.
I have a very nice Rosenberg trio album on which Stocholo plays very
strongly. But I think he would have simply marvelled at Bireli last
night, and applauded with the rest of us.
pmfan57
Bireli reached new heights last night. I have seen him many times. He
is even better than Stocholo or even the great Jimmy, the second Mozart
of the gypsies. Jimmy has the best chance of catching Bireli.
But Bireli's gypsy style playing has now seamlessly incorporated bebop
and post bop. It used to be that he was a gypsy style player, and also
a fusion player, and also a Benson style player. He has integrated
those now. Go see him when he comes by.
hans van leeuwen
> I suppose I bought Paco's trick as well?
>
of course, ever listened to Paco Pena?
H.
pmfan57
than Paco de Lucia. I have seen him say that the younger fellow is
possibly the greatest guitar player. Pena does make some interesting
points about his younger colleague. Mr. Pena has decided that he
(Pena) wants to play the best possible way within the tradition. He
disagrees in some ways with de Lucia's choices in integrating other
styles. But he has said that someone of Paco de Lucia's talent and
skill has the right to do whatever he wants. Paco de Lucia was a great
chiled prodigy, very much like Bireli and Jimmy Rosenberg.
Paco Pena is my favorite traditional flamenco player. Paco de Lucia is
sui generis and not a flamenco stylist anymore. But he's indisputably
one of the greatest guitarists ever. Do you dispute this?
hans van leeuwen
Yes. At one point it isn't important anymore what musicians say about each
other or themselves because this is mostly concerning technical matters. De
Lucia has the Paganini-like speed which Pena doesn't have, no doubt about
that. But who has to say more, musically (emotionally if you want)? Why
could P.Pena develop a career on serious concert stages and Lucia did not
(could not)? Which type of audiences did they win over eventually? If you
prefer Lucia above Pena because of Lucia's mind-boggling fast runs, and
can't (or don't want to) hear that players like Django,Wes or Jim Hall have
more to say than 10 Bireli's, then our discussion stops here. It's a matter
of establishing priorities I guess.
greetz
Hans
pmfan57
than ever, both technically and emotionally/artistically. Paco de
Lucia was considered in his younger days to be one of the greatest
"regular" flamenco players. He did not want to be limited to this and
sought other avenues. There is an old guard of flamenco fans that has
turned on him to say he stopped because he couldn't do it. Thoughtful
people, such as Paco Pena, do not ascribe to this view. It appears you
are one of the old guard?
But you are a great jazz guitar player, that's for sure.
pmfan57
being among the greatest guitarists who have ever lived, including Paco
Pena, Serranito, Mario Escudero, Sabicas, Ramon Montoya and other
greats. I love flamenco guitarists very much. But Paco de Lucia was a
phenomenon, even compared to those greats. My first flamenco album was
the London Phase 4 Paco Pena LP. That is so beautiful. I am not
trying to make this a battle of the Paco's; you are.
pmfan57
If you had seen him last night, with an open mind, you would have
realized that he is unprecedented in more ways than just technique.
Read Dan's review. Dan thought about Bireli the same way that you do
until he saw the show.
You are, for some reason, assuming that even though you didn't see the
show, you know exactly what happened there.
Joe
Max Leggett
>By the way, I definitely include all the great flamenco players as
>being among the greatest guitarists who have ever lived, including Paco
>Pena, Serranito, Mario Escudero, Sabicas, Ramon Montoya and other
>greats. I love flamenco guitarists very much. But Paco de Lucia was a
>phenomenon, even compared to those greats. My first flamenco album was
>the London Phase 4 Paco Pena LP. That is so beautiful. I am not
>trying to make this a battle of the Paco's; you are.
Manitas de Plata blows smoke round all of them. Tasteful gutsy smoke,
at that.
-------------------------------------------------------
Is it not strange that sheep's guts should hale
souls out of men's bodies?
Willie 'The Lion' Shakespeare
-------------------------------------------------------
Pat Smith
listen to him all day long. So inventive and beautiful. Why does guitar
playing always have to be gunsliger time?
hans van leeuwen
> As to "10 Bireli's" remark you must have some personal issue with him.
> If you had seen him last night, with an open mind, you would have
> realized that he is unprecedented in more ways than just technique.
>
> Read Dan's review. Dan thought about Bireli the same way that you do
> until he saw the show.
>
> You are, for some reason, assuming that even though you didn't see the
> show, you know exactly what happened there.
>
> Joe
Maybe you are right. I only have seen him on tv a few times and of course
listened to CD's. This has brought me to my conclusions as mentioned. Hope
he'll come to Holland one time so I can change my opinion (or not...)
Hans
pmfan57
I believe he is not regarded highly by the regular flamenco crowd (but
I don't think I want to be lumped with them). I'm pretty sure Paco
Pena does not think very highly of the silver hands guy either.
In any event, silver hands certainly doesn't play circles around Paco
de Lucia or any of the other guys I mentioned. What makes you think he
does?
tomb...@jhu.edu
Pat Smith wrote:
> Why does guitar
> playing always have to be gunsliger time?
Gunslinger music bores me silly. I think
it's indicative of insecurity. Because the
world treats non-T40 musicians as insignificant,
there's a tendency to retreat into self-regard
as a defense mechanism.
pmfan57
gunslinger. I agree with Pat. Paco de Lucia is an incredibly soulful
player who HAPPENS to have unbelievable chops.
Gunslinger stuff is strictly for shred lovers. They ONLY care about
who's the fastest. Bireli was playing lines on the quality level and
speed of Oscar Peterson, not just playing fast scale patterns. His
lines would have sounded great at half or quarter of the speed. That's
why his technique was only half the story, as stupendous as it was. He
used it to further his music.
tomb...@jhu.edu
RB
collab
with Sylvain pushed him to start practicing...His playing is indeed
a melange of swing/bebop/postbop...with an emphasis on the
mainstream bop stuff. He has clearly copped a LOT of Benson..
I have a boot of Stochelo where Lagrene sits in. Stochelo
sounds VERY ordinary compared to B. B's vocab is much
richer than Stochelo and B's rhythmic vocab is FAR wider.
These factors make B' music more interesting/compelling and alive
for me personally. Plus I admit there is a thrill factor involved in
listening to B. You just never know what crazy impossible stuff
he might pull out round the next bend. I feel the same way with
Benson...
Dan Adler
> "pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1115910188.4...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > The best $30 music charge I ever spent.
> >
>
> I see, you bought the Bireli trick.... ;-)
Hans,
I wrote some pretty embarassing things about hating Bireli's albums:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz/msg/1c523c155ebcf03d?hl=en
but I have to say that seeing him live changed all that. I am now
putting "standards" and "acoustic moments" on my ipod as we speak...
You should check out those dutch gypsy players in your neighborhood :-)
pmfan57
sound and Bireli plays even more bop oriented than at our gig.
Dan Adler
before...
pmfan57
Bireli!
I thought Bireli said "Weiss" was his last name. Maybe not. He was
awesome, though.
On the Gypsy Project and Friends CD, Stochelo and Bireli set the studio
on fire with an incredible version of Dark Eyes on the Gypsy Project
and Friends CD. Each must enjoy the fact that there's someone else who
they can play together with at that high level.
Jimmy would fit right in as well. What a monster he is. The only
comparable prodigy to Bireli. One of Jimmy's albums has Bireli on a
lot of cuts.
stu...@yahoo.com
Well i've seen all the major gypsy gutiarists and know them all!-They
all say theres Django theres Bireli-then theres the rest of us1
believe me Stochelo is great but he knows bireli is in a different
class!
Truly the greatest living gutiarist!!!
I first saw him when he was 15--he could outplay most any guitarist
even then!
Goodvibes
Five Sharp
Pretty pointless. Stochelo strictly plays in the tradition and has no desire
to incorporate bebop lines and other stylistic devices into his playing.
Each accomplished player is a separate catagory on his own.
On a certain level there is no "better". Only "different".
"Better, best" and "greater, greatest" are terms mostly used by students to
denote what they happen to like. They are mostly empty terms to boot, based
on personal preference.
But I guess I will be repeating this into eternity here. Ah well ...
#####
"good...@yahoo.com" <stu...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1115984413....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
cl...@claymoore.com
Dan Adler wrote:
> Everything comes from a musical place, and it's just so much fun to
> watch him. EVERYONE in the audience had a big wide smile on their
face
> the whole time, and people were just ooh-ing and ahh-ing all the
time.
>
> This is a huge contrast to most jazz gigs, where you see a number of
> fanatics who are really into it, but most of the audience seems
> disengaged or bored. Here, everyone was totally into it, and that in
> itself contains a lesson, I think.
Hi Dan (and Joe),
I have a couple of Bireli anecdotes that support what you are saying.
My wife and I went to the Gypsy Project concert a couple of years ago,
right after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. Without getting too
political here I was pretty disgusted with this move by "the
coalition," and felt like there were only dark days ahead for the human
race. This concert literally pulled me back to life, it was so full of
passion, humor, and virtuosity (in the good sense). Shortly afterwards
I had an email conversation with another local guitarist, a terrific
player in his own right, and he confessed to feeling the same way, like
this gave us hope for the future. It sounds kind of maudlin written
like this, but it was true.
The second story involves a class I was teaching last semester. The
scheduled instructor Mike Elliot had a heart attack and couldn't
continue the class, so another teacher and I took over. I was only
there one class per week, and the students seemed to get into the habit
of taking it less than seriously. Finally, after giving out the same
assignment three weeks in a row and having them ignore it I got ticked
off and said "fine, no more assignments; we'll do everything in class."
The next week I brought in the Gypsy Project DVD and said "here, watch
this."
None of the students had ever heard of Bireli, and they were all going
"what's this? who's this?" Within a few minutes they were all in giddy
stunned amazement. We only watched part of it, and a day or so later
two of the guys stopped me in the hall and asked if they could borrow
the DVD to watch the rest. Most students who come to the school are not
particularly interested in jazz, so the ability of Bireli and Co. to
captivate thier attention is a great thing.
BTW, if anyone knows Mike Elliot (or would like to know this amazing
player) you can keep up with how he's doing on
http://www.mikeelliottjazzguitar.com/. His wife has been posting health
updates.
Clay Moore
http://www.claymoore.com
pmfan57
the same fellow?
Joe
pmfan57
Gypsy Project and Friends. The fingerboards must have been smoking
after those unison passages.
Five Sharp
They are still in their teens sometimes. School kids really. But they play
great. Stochelo and Jimmy Rosenberg have paved the way for them and inspired
them years ago. They grow up playing guitar.
#####
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:1115995461.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
pmfan57
with a full size guitar in his hands.
juru...@aol.com
listen to him all day long. So inventive and beautiful. Why does guitar
playing always have to be gunsliger time?
I recently heard Paco on a local cable channel playing a piece he wrote
for his son, if I read it right. I was absolutely wowed - he's an
incredible player, fast, sure, but a lot more than that - it was a
really fine mature piece of music played beautifully.
Please accept that as a mutually exclusive statement, and one that
invites no comparison to Birelli.
I heard B. live with Vic Juris when he was 18, and he could play back
then. Recently I've heard Move a couple of times on the radio, and I
loved that too. I've read that he jeopardized his Gypsy house gig in
SanFran at one time for playing too much rock. He did a thumb basslike
solo on guitar when I heard him. He could probably kick ass as a
bluegrass or bouzouki player if he wanted to.
I wouldn't want to compare them any more than I'd want to fault a
peach for not tasting like a strawberry. Both those guys can really
play and make fantastic music. Vive le difference - ditto for Hall,
Monder, Pass, Breau, Benson, and anybody else who puts everything they
have into it.
Clif Kuplen
Al
Pat Smith
Solo quiero caminar
Live In America
Flamenco:La Fabulosa Guitarra de Paco
Siroco
All good stuff, not all solo
cl...@claymoore.com
Hey Joe,
Yeah, it's probably the same Mike Elliott. He was a Johnny Smith
protege and his chord melody work is outstanding. He has at least two
of these books out that I know of; I have them both as a lot of the
students play his pieces for juries.
Mike is a really great guy as well, and it's been hard to see him
dealing with all his health issues (diabetes, cancer, and his recent
heart attacks). A few months ago I ended up on a gig that he usually
plays because he was too weak to play it, but he came out to check it
out. It was great to see him out, but it was also a little scary,
because he can really play! Yikes!
Clay Moore
http://www.claymoore.com
juru...@aol.com
player) you can keep up with how he's doing on
health
updates.
I only know Mike from reputation, a tape a fellow in Minn. played me of
a clinic of Mike's he attended, and the high praise of fellow Johnny
Smith alumnus and country hall of famer Ray Riggs.
Mike is an amazingly good player for someone without a huge national
following, and deserves all the notice he can get. I was very sorry to
hear he's had all these health setbacks. I wish the very best for him.
He's a HELL of a good guitarist and musician.
Clif Kuplen
Toby
"hogrider" <bikera...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:69Dge.6559$Dh....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>I saw Bireli recently here in Santa Cruz, California. He is undeniably the
>greatest living guitar player of any genre, period.
pmfan57
end of that argument.
Jeanmi
always have been a technical virtuoso (since age of 8...) but what he
plays today touches my heart like no other guitar player. As a side
note I read 2 years ago an interview in a french magazine: Bireli was
admitting that the gypsy project was putting a lot of pressure on him
technically and that he was practicing again in order to play more
fluently. I think these 2 years back to the woodshed are partly
responsible for the wonderful stuff he's playing right now. He's never
been so good (and we're talking about *taste* and musicality).
Ps: the comparison to Stochelo really doesn't apply. I love Stochelo
but honestly, he plays the same licks other and other. I love his licks
but he's really very far behind Bireli for creation and imagination in
improvising. Bireli makes me cry when he plays ballads. Listen to him
on "estate" or "how insensitive": he played my all time favorite
versions of these standards.
Here in france many young players are learning the gypsy style, it's
very trendy right now. I think Bireli is largely responsible for the
comeback of this music in france at least.
Jeanmi
Five Sharp
comparing Herb Ellis to Pat Martino. Totally pointless.
#####
"Jeanmi" <jmg...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1116845487....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
pmfan57
these two great players, even taking as a baseline assumption that they
are each among the greatest guitar players ever.
For a while, Stocholo appeared to be at a level technically where his
playing was more consistently flawless than Bireli. But now Bireli is
just as clean technically, and maintains the differences in content
others have talked about.
But, that having been said, you are correct that content wise, it is
now like apples and oranges.
Does Jimmy play any modern stuff? I know Bolou Ferre plays
Tristano-like material and is modern in many respects.
Five Sharp
over and over again. Repetition is the hallmark of style! You can only
distinguish players by hearing things you have heard them do earlier, right.
All great players repeat themselves often, including Bireli. It's a conditio
sine qua non. See the "he never repeats himself" threat.
Moreover, any attempt to generate a kind of hierarchy among great players is
rubbish. There is no "better" at a certain level, only "different." There
are many people that dig Herb Ellis or Barney Kessel better than Pat Martino
or Pat Metheny. And right they are because the appreciation of music is
STRICTLY subjective. Hence, objective classification of players that have
proven themselves is small talk. Nice, but kind of pointless.
I nave heard any modern stuff from Jimmy by the way.
#####
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:1116861489.4...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jeanmi
music really. But in a gypsy setting (I have a few videos with both of
them playing django music) I feel Bireli more imaginative and
unpredictable than Stochelo. Just my opinion of course and, again, I
actually love Stochelo playing.
Jeanmi
Five Sharp
beholder!
I like Bireli a lot too, especially his modern jazz playing.
#####
"Jeanmi" <jmg...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1116864775.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
pmfan57
I didn't make the comment about Stocholo repeating himself. I said
that Stocholo plays in the traditional style, which I know you agree
with. Someone else said the "same licks" comment. And all musicians
repeat themselves. Even Bireli on this great night only appeared to
come close by playing with such inventiveness that each line appeared
fresh and inspired.
Joe
Five Sharp
#####
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:1116866750.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...