Burn the Books! (thoughts about reading on gigs)
Mark Kleinhaut
once, but most recently in the context of another thread about playing
for free. There is an obvious corrolation that ties these two isses to
the experience level of the player, but I'd like to focus for a moment
on the book-reading issue.
First and foremost to playing jazz, one must be intimately familiar
with the tunes being played. Otherwise, how can one hope to really
expound upon the basic structure of the composition with one's own
sponteneous composition-improvistaion. Its like the old saying, "you
must walk before you can run". I'm not saying you can't get through a
tune you don't know well by leaning on the chart, but think about how
much better than that you can play on something you really know
well...maybe a blues or a rhythm changes tune. Now imagine you know 25
tunes just as well. How bout 100? If you are honest with yourself, you
know in your heart of hearts that you do really play much better when
you don't need "to look". Don't you want to play at that level on all
of the tunes?
Next: Think of the interation between the band members when everyone
knows the tune inside-out. Instead of looking at the chart, they can
look at each other, or close their eyes for a while or look at the
audience. Doesn't it make sense that reading the chart is a major
obstacle to group interaction and communication. And isn't the group's
level of interaction and communication what defines a good performance?
Next: Picture your audience....or...just picture yourself in the
audience. How is the group engaging with he crowd? Are they
interesting to watch. Do they look like they are having fun and are
confident? Do they look like they know what they are doing? Think of
some concerts or club dates where you really enjoyed being in the
audience. Did you see any real-books around?
I know there are occasions where one must read the chart, like for
requests or if someone sits in and calls a tune you don't know, or if
someone brings in an originl composition. And I'd rather someone read
the chart than play the wrong changes. But, these should be the
exceptions, not the rule.
If the fundamental reason you are out there doing gigs in the first
place is to gain the experience of the bandstand, then I suggest that
when reading charts on the bandstand you are flat-out missing the
boat. The bandstand experience should be about building confidence and
success by playing music you are competant to perform, which means
tunes you really know and therefore are tunes you can do justice to.
There is so much discussion in this group about learning chords and
scales and how to allocate practicing time and so-forth. Everyone
seems really dedicated to learning and growing as musicians. So what's
the problem here? Can anyone tell me how you can justify practicing
two hours a day without spending at least a third of your time working
on repertoire building?
I'm all ears.
--
Mark Kleinhaut
Info and soundclips available at
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jimmyb
a concept. After a few months you will be able to hear tunes, melodies ,
chords etc. After a few more months you'll be able to recognize the common
chord changes used in most tunes. What did jazz musicians do before "The
real Books" They got an ear for music
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8dkj56$n8f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Mike Ellenberger
playing rock in my youth we never would have dreamed of having music
on the stage. You were supposed to know the stuff.
However, there are lots of examples of music on the stage. Duke
Ellington
used music didn't he, Buddy Rich?, symphony orchestras, and I've seen
other big time jazz cats playing from charts.
So is the issue using music on stage (whether it's the Real Book or
charts produced by
a band member) OR just players who are unfamiliar with the material
being
performed? Or something else? How do you play "arrangements" of tunes
without charts?
I prefer to not having to read when I perform because if I'm not reading
it frees up some grey matter for a lot of what Mark mentioned.
Mike
ros...@inet.net
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The subject of using real books on the bandstand has come up more than
> once, but most recently in the context of another thread about playing
> for free. There is an obvious corrolation that ties these two isses to
> the experience level of the player, but I'd like to focus for a moment
> on the book-reading issue.
<excellent post snipped to save space>
> Mark Kleinhaut
> Info and soundclips available at
> www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
I agree 100%. The other guitarist in the last band I was in had been
playing well over 20 years. Could not figure out a tune by ear to save his
life. Even the songs he 'knew', including his own, that he had been
playing for 20 years or more required that he have the chords and lyrics
on a music stand in front of him. And this was not jazz - mostly simple 3
and 4 chord folky stuff - G, C, Am kind of stuff.
It showed in his playing and singing. It sounded like he was reading the
song, not singing it, and he always messed up the changes even though the
songs were extremely simple.
A dear friend of mine, but it caused more than one argument between us.
He'd refuse to listen to a recording of a song we'd be trying to learn
because he'd rather do his 'interpretation' of it. While there's some
validity to that argument, I'd always argue that playing the wrong chords
because you can't figure out the correct ones, or dropping a section of
the song entirely because it's 'too hard to play' doesn't qualify as
interpretation.
Frank
--
http://mp3.com/bzb (hear my band)
http://home.conectiv.net/~rosebud/frank
Pat Smith
to use a book, just that those of us that look at the chart from time to
time are not horrible job-stealing scum.But, all in all it would be better
to lose the book.
By the way can I get a chart for Amphora...
XO
Pat
Luke B
Mike Ellenberger <mike_ell...@amdahl.com> wrote in message
news:38FDDCDF...@amdahl.com...
> There's a lot of truth in what Mark and Jimmy are saying. When I was
> playing rock in my youth we never would have dreamed of having music
> on the stage. You were supposed to know the stuff.
>
> However, there are lots of examples of music on the stage. Duke
> Ellington
> used music didn't he, Buddy Rich?, symphony orchestras, and I've seen
> other big time jazz cats playing from charts.
>
bands that play the same arrangements night after night don't use the music
much. Having a book of arrangements however does make it possible for a
large group to have literally hundreds and hundreds of arrangements at their
fingertips.
Tibor Horvath
set in what looks like a small club. He practically never takes his eyes
off the sheet music ! I guess if a player of his caliber does it , it must
surely be acceptable !?
T.H.
Mike Ellenberger wrote:
> There's a lot of truth in what Mark and Jimmy are saying. When I was
> playing rock in my youth we never would have dreamed of having music
> on the stage. You were supposed to know the stuff.
>
> However, there are lots of examples of music on the stage. Duke
> Ellington
> used music didn't he, Buddy Rich?, symphony orchestras, and I've seen
> other big time jazz cats playing from charts.
>
Mark Kleinhaut
steal my gig just have the decency to do a good professional job of
it:) Besides, if we get into true confessions, I must admit I've
horned in on more than just a couple of gigs in my day. In fact, I'm
working on a doozie right now. That's life in the pond, but I should
add, that my pitch is based on quality, on having a following and on
knowing how to promote the gig, not on price (which is actually
higher).
And yes, I can send you a chart for Amphora provided (1) you agree to
properly credit me if you perform the piece (it is copyrighted, of
course) and (2) you memorize the tune in all 12 keys :) Ok, I'd settle
for just in the original key?
--
Mark Kleinhaut
Info and soundclips available at
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
Joey Goldstein
Mike Ellenberger wrote:
>
> There's a lot of truth in what Mark and Jimmy are saying. When I was
> playing rock in my youth we never would have dreamed of having music
> on the stage. You were supposed to know the stuff.
>
> However, there are lots of examples of music on the stage. Duke
> Ellington
> used music didn't he,
Actually there are all sorts of stories about how Duke's band quite
often did not use charts. He would play the parts to the guys and they
would memorize them at rehearsals. Sometimes they would make up their
own harmony parts after the section was given a lead line. Made it hell
when someone subbed out.
I suppose that some of the charts must have been written down too though.
IMO Jazz is best played when everyone on the bandstand knows the tunes
well enough to not be reading them. Often there is not enough time,
commitment or money involved to properly rehearse a band though.
> Buddy Rich?, symphony orchestras, and I've seen
> other big time jazz cats playing from charts.
>
> So is the issue using music on stage (whether it's the Real Book or
> charts produced by
> a band member) OR just players who are unfamiliar with the material
> being
> performed? Or something else? How do you play "arrangements" of tunes
> without charts?
>
> I prefer to not having to read when I perform because if I'm not reading
>
> it frees up some grey matter for a lot of what Mark mentioned.
>
> Mike
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
Mark Kleinhaut
Tibor Horvath <thor...@icao.int> wrote:
> I agree, I have a video of Pat Matino in a trio setting playing a
complete
> set in what looks like a small club. He practically never takes his
eyes
> off the sheet music ! I guess if a player of his caliber does it ,
it must
> surely be acceptable !?
> T.H.
Tibor, I wonder about this video. What tunes were they playing and when
was it made. Is it possible that this was just as Pat was recovering
from his brain surgury and just re-learning how to play. If so, then
the extenuating circumstances should be obvious. Alternatively, if
they were playing some original pieces that had been just composed, hot
off the press so to speak, then that's understandable too. I've been
in the situation where I had to perform other peoples compostions and I
just did not have the material in time to memorize it. OTOH, I've
never had to read my own compositions, that would seem very odd to me.
So I would argue hard that just because Pat did it, that does not make
it acceptable. But you can see how easy it can be to cop out, like
becuase this one is doing it, or that one is doing it, or maybe it
seems like everyone is doing it, then it must be ok.
Tom Walls
>
>I agree, I have a video of Pat Matino in a trio setting playing a complete
>set in what looks like a small club. He practically never takes his eyes
>off the sheet music ! I guess if a player of his caliber does it , it must
>surely be acceptable !?
>T.H.
Martino -- that wanker! ;<)
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Tim Berens
wrote:
>I agree, I have a video of Pat Matino in a trio setting playing a complete
>set in what looks like a small club. He practically never takes his eyes
>off the sheet music ! I guess if a player of his caliber does it , it must
>surely be acceptable !?
>T.H.
>
I read that since his brain aneurism, Martino has been unable to
memorize music. He must read in order to be able to play.
Tim
Tim Berens records for Red Mark Records
Sound clips on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004RC22/102-7001331-0566459
Greg Clayton
onstage you develop your ears AND your memory and transposing on the spot
becomes way more easy. Same goes for transcription books !! make your own
which will reflect your taste.
Greg Clayton
> >
>
>
>
jimmyb
anything
"Tibor Horvath" <thor...@icao.int> wrote in message
news:38FDF737...@icao.int...
> I agree, I have a video of Pat Matino in a trio setting playing a complete
> set in what looks like a small club. He practically never takes his eyes
> off the sheet music ! I guess if a player of his caliber does it , it
must
> surely be acceptable !?
> T.H.
>
>
> > There's a lot of truth in what Mark and Jimmy are saying. When I was
> > playing rock in my youth we never would have dreamed of having music
> > on the stage. You were supposed to know the stuff.
> >
> > However, there are lots of examples of music on the stage. Duke
> > Ellington
Jeff Gower
Lighten up, people! Who gives a happy damn whether there is an open book
somewhere on the stage or not, as long as the music sounds good and as
long as the musicians and their audience are having a good time?
I guarantee you that the only people who are bothered by this kind of
thing are the same people (most likely insecure frustrated envious uptight
guitar players) who sit and analyze the hell out of every trivial aspect
of the musicians and music-making (what "scales" are being played, how
difficult it is, whether there is enough "swinging", whether this or that
part was done "properly", whether they are looking in a book, etc., etc.,
ad nauseum).
I recently attended a string quartet/ensemble concert - the music and the
performance moved me to tears. And guess what? They had sheet music on
their stands. I guess I should have walked out in protest, eh? How DARE
these musicians show up so "unprepared" and "unprofessional"?! For shame!
Jeez. Lighten up, people. It's music, not acting.
Humbly yours,
Jeff
--
Jeff Gower - Jazz/Classical Guitarist
http://www.jeffgower.com
Joe Sedita
music is a very different experience.
Joe Sedita
MusickEd.com
For the Musician in *You*!
----------
In article <8dkj56$n8f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mark Kleinhaut
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The subject of using real books on the bandstand has come up more than
>once, but most recently in the context of another thread about playing
>for free. There is an obvious corrolation that ties these two isses to
>the experience level of the player, but I'd like to focus for a moment
>on the book-reading issue.
>
Stephen G. Carl
music stand in front of him. When I saw him the year before,
everyone in the band was reading (except the drummer).
When I saw Pat Metheny's trio last month, Larry Grenadier
stood behind a music stand the whole time.
Every time I've ever seen the Philadelphia Orchestra (many
times), they've all been reading, including the conductor.
Mark Kleinhaut <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8dkv0t$5b0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <38FDF737...@icao.int>,
> Tibor Horvath <thor...@icao.int> wrote:
> > I agree, I have a video of Pat Matino in a trio setting playing a
> complete
> > set in what looks like a small club. He practically never takes his
> eyes
> > off the sheet music ! I guess if a player of his caliber does it ,
> it must
> > surely be acceptable !?
> > T.H.
>
> Tibor, I wonder about this video. What tunes were they playing and when
> was it made. Is it possible that this was just as Pat was recovering
> from his brain surgury and just re-learning how to play. If so, then
> the extenuating circumstances should be obvious. Alternatively, if
> they were playing some original pieces that had been just composed, hot
> off the press so to speak, then that's understandable too. I've been
> in the situation where I had to perform other peoples compostions and I
> just did not have the material in time to memorize it. OTOH, I've
> never had to read my own compositions, that would seem very odd to me.
>
> So I would argue hard that just because Pat did it, that does not make
> it acceptable. But you can see how easy it can be to cop out, like
> becuase this one is doing it, or that one is doing it, or maybe it
> seems like everyone is doing it, then it must be ok.
>
jimmyb
willl learn tunes and get a great ear. I don't think it is bad to read
music on the bandstand. I may have missed the point of the thread as I came
in late
"Stephen G. Carl" <sc...@netcarrier.com> wrote in message
news:sfseeto...@corp.supernews.com...
Thomas F Brown
Mike Ellenberger <mike_ell...@amdahl.com> wrote:
>
>However, there are lots of examples of music on the stage. Duke
>Ellington
>used music didn't he, Buddy Rich?, symphony orchestras, and I've seen
>other big time jazz cats playing from charts.
>
>So is the issue using music on stage (whether it's the Real Book or
>charts produced by
>a band member) OR just players who are unfamiliar with the material
>being
>performed? Or something else? How do you play "arrangements" of tunes
>without charts?
If it's a new arrangement to you, then you have to read. But people
who have to read standard tunes should be learning the repertoire.
There's not much excuse for being unable to play a standard without
having to read. If you don't know it, you should be able to hear it.
Very few standards are as difficult as Stella or All the Things. Once
you learn to hear a few basic harmonic patterns, you can play 80-90%
of standards by ear. Jazz standards are a bit tougher, but those
one should learn and commit to memory anyway. My humble opinion.
Thomas F Brown
Burning the RB is going too far. Of course you should know the standards,
but I collect every fake book I can find. When I want to learn a tune,
I don't want to have to sort through my record collection for an
example. I want immediate gratification. Also, the book editor might
have an alternative idea for a harmony that I hadn't thought of.
I use the books at home, for practice and research. I take one on the
gig, just in case. You never know when someone might call Metheny's Exercise
#6, or some weird Steve Swallow tune.
Pat Smith
>
> >
> C'mon now, I'm not calling anyone "scum", but jeez, if you are going to
> steal my gig just have the decency to do a good professional job of
> it:) Besides, if we get into true confessions, I must admit I've
> horned in on more than just a couple of gigs in my day. In fact, I'm
> working on a doozie right now. That's life in the pond, but I should
> add, that my pitch is based on quality, on having a following and on
> knowing how to promote the gig, not on price (which is actually
> higher).
>
> And yes, I can send you a chart for Amphora provided (1) you agree to
> properly credit me if you perform the piece (it is copyrighted, of
> course) and (2) you memorize the tune in all 12 keys :) Ok, I'd settle
> for just in the original key?
>
Jack A. Zucker
What
> >a concept. After a few months you will be able to hear tunes, melodies ,
> >chords etc. After a few more months you'll be able to recognize the
common
> >chord changes used in most tunes. What did jazz musicians do before "The
> >real Books" They got an ear for music
>
What a silly thread and a ridiculous comment. Let's do the same thing with
books too. Why not learn all your stories and news from storytellers ?
Jaz
--
Jack A. Zucker
Cleveland, OH US
email: j...@jackzucker.com
web: http://www.jackzucker.com
JazzStrings
In article <jgower-1904...@ppp003.gator.net>,
jgo...@gator.net (Jeff Gower) wrote:
>After reading my previous post on this thread, I want to
apologize if I
>sounded a bit too sarcastic, folks. I certainly didn't mean to
offend
>anyone here with my rather cynical approach. I will bow out
now and allow
>you to continue this thread sans my smart-ass input. ;-)
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
icarusi
>The bandstand experience should be about building confidence and
> success by playing music you are competant to perform, which means
> tunes you really know and therefore are tunes you can do justice to.
There is the opposite, where playing from memory when the memory
fails! I'm at that stage and I think crib cards would be a good
compromise, with the title, key and enough info to remind me of the
melody, how many bars to, and how long is, the middle section. I
usually scan the stuff before starting and then only check back at the
mid section (if any). I started playing by ear, so I've never got to
playing much from a chart. It feels like playing by numbers, but I do
like a memory aid.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Eisenbeil
musicians improvise. In situations where musicians are allowed to improvise
I've found, without any memorable exception, that people improvise better and
help to make the whole band sound better if the melody and changes are
memorized. Thats when the tune takes on a unique life.
Peace,
Bruce
TomLippinc
>music is a very different experience.
>Joe Sedita
Me too. I've read all the replies thus far and I do agree with Mark that there
is a whole other level that one can acheive in a jazz context by knowing the
material inside and out. That's one of Kenny Werner's basic mantra's in the
book "Effortless Mastery" that I'm always raving about. I do concur with those
who have asserted that great music can certainly be made by musicians with
music in front of them, particularly in a large ensemble context. I do think
that in general, the context makes a difference. If I do a solo guitar job or
play with a trio, or even a larger group where I'm playing mostly standards, or
well rehearsed material like original tunes, I try as hard as I can to have
everything memorized for the aforementioned reasons. However, in some
situations this just isn't practical. As an example, one group I play with on
a pretty regular basis has clearly written and numbered charts for EVERY tune.
They do a lot of corporate convention type stuff as well as concerts and
festivals and they often end up using any of a number of different players
(they often even end up having several different versions of the same band
working at different venues on a given night). So as long as they hire
competent players who are decent readers, they are assured of getting a
professional sounding end product without having to constantly pay people for
rehearsal time. Over the years I've been playing with them I've gotten to the
point where I have most of their tunes memorized, but the group usually uses
vocals and the other night I did an out of town gig with them that was all
instrumental. We did a few standards, and no one had their head buried in a
chart, but we mostly were doing tunes by people like Pat Metheny, Dave Sanborn,
and the Yellowjackets. Sort of the "artsier side of pop jazz" if you will.
The sax player who was on the gig is a guy I've known for years and is a great
player, but I hadn't seen him or played with him in over a year or so, and he
really sounded better than ever. He was reading all these pretty involved
tunes down perfectly, and blowing great sounding solos, all without the benefit
of having anything memorized or rehearsed beforehand. As for me, I think I
just added more weight to the old joke about "how do you get a guitar player to
turn down," as I really blew it a couple of times trying to read a melody (not
to make excuses but I'd barely had any sleep the night before and could barely
even see straight; it's a long story that I'll have to save for one of those
"gig nightmare" threads). Anyway, I think that the skill of being able to read
a tune and make it sound great, spontaneous, and energetic or whatever is an
admirable one. In the end, I'd probably have more fun playing a gig (or
hearing one) where everything "composed" is memorized and the musicians
involved can focus their energy on being creative and responding to each other,
but I don't think it's a completely black and white issue.
Also, if I hire musicians to play my original music, I'm not going to expect
them to memorize my tunes unless they're being payed pretty well, and/or are
getting the majority of their work from me, and that's not a situation that
I've had the good fortune to be in yet.
With all that said, I think there IS a difference between reading charts on a
gig that someone took the time and care to write out, and just bringin' the ol'
real book to bury your head in for a medium swing version of All The Things You
Should Have Been one more time.
Tom Lippincott
Jeff Gower
Jurupari
>I say burn the real book. Just imagine having to learn a tune by ear. What
>a concept. After a few months you will be able to hear tunes, melodies ,
>chords etc. After a few more months you'll be able to recognize the common
>chord changes used in most tunes. What did jazz musicians do before "The
>real Books" They got an ear for music
I always did that in rock, but in jazz, the real book was a (sort of) good
validation for the changes I learned by ear. It won't substitute for building
repertoire though - nothing could.
Still, I've known two piano players who were pretty good improvisers, but
couldn't play Happy Birthday without a chart. That always struck me as sort of
weird and hard to explain, but if they lost their books, game over.
Just reminded me of a story. About 30 years ago, I was driving Kenny Barron,
Stanley Clarke and Tony Williams from Raleigh to Greensboro for a concert with
Stan Getz. They were doing a bunch of then new Chick Corea tunes, and Kenny
forgot the book. (He'd just been hired to replace Chick.) He thought about
turning around and going back, then said the hell with it - I oughta know 'em
by now. Did he ever - to me he sounded better than with the book!
Regards,
Clif Kuplen
http://members.aol.com/jurupari
Jurupari
>
I thought the gist of this thread was more about us as the storytellers. Sure,
I learn tunes from charts, but I didn't learn to play from charts. It's kind of
but not exactly like a raconteur reading from a script. Besides, we're
improvising. Just what is it we're supposed to be reading? I don't think one
can learn how to tell a story from reading a book.
I can only speak for myself, but when I'm reading changes on a gig, I'm more
likely to get better results on a solo if I'm able to internalize the changes
after a couple of choruses, and I'd rather not be the first up.
I've played with people that could solo over an unfamiliar tune off a chart
about as well as the other way, so it's obviously achievable, but I'm more
comfortable in a song I know or can absorb after a couple of choruses.
Mark Kleinhaut
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> > >I say burn the real book. Just imagine having to learn a tune by
ear.
> What
> > >a concept. After a few months you will be able to hear tunes,
melodies ,
> > >chords etc. After a few more months you'll be able to recognize
the
> common
> > >chord changes used in most tunes. What did jazz musicians do
before "The
> > >real Books" They got an ear for music
> >
>
with
> books too. Why not learn all your stories and news from storytellers ?
>
> Jaz
>
> --
> Jack A. Zucker
> Cleveland, OH US
> email: j...@jackzucker.com
> web: http://www.jackzucker.com
>
>
pretty obvious. Are you going to tell me you look at the chart when
someone calls Autumn Leaves?
David Moss
"Stephen G. Carl" wrote...
> Every time I've ever seen the Philadelphia Orchestra (many
> times), they've all been reading, including the conductor.
Surely not the soloist? That would be considered
very bad form in classical circles.
David Moss
"Jeff Gower" wrote...
> After reading my previous post on this thread, I want to apologize if I
> sounded a bit too sarcastic, folks. I certainly didn't mean to offend
> anyone here with my rather cynical approach. I will bow out now and allow
> you to continue this thread sans my smart-ass input. ;-)
If the smart-ass input stops, I'll stop reading this newsgroup!
David C. Stephens
I'm from the classical tradition (trying to move away from it currently),
having played trumpet for 40+ years in wind bands, orchestras, pit bands,
big bands and small ensembles. I can say with certainty that "most"
classical musicians read every note of music every time they play it,
whether they're playing a solo (within the piece) or not.
The normal exception IS the soloist in a concerto will usually, not always,
have the part memorized. This is the situation you're probably referring to;
however, it never disturbs me when the soloist has a music stand and I've
heard many fine performances this way.
Since classical musicians play and practice with music in front of them
constantly, it's easy for them to put emotion into a piece and "interpret"
it (never straying from the written rhythm and notes, but relying on lift,
energy, vibrato, dynamics, etc. to effect an interpretation).
This reading thing has been an Achilles heel for me in learning jazz (I
started playing guitar in my forties). Memorization was always a separate
step for me on trumpet. (OTOH, it makes it easy for me to play 150+ big band
charts). Still, when improvising, I'm seeing notes in my head (that's an
improvement over seeing trumpet valve positions in my head, as used to be
the case). When I see a note, I also "hear" a note (that's part of the
classical training that is necessary to play in tune on a wind or
non-fretted string instrument), so it's not a bad as it may seem to some
that have never experienced this phenomenon.
Internalizing Bruno's scales and related arpeggios has been helping, but the
visual connection, once totally hardwired in your head, is hard to break.
Dave
David Moss <david...@ifia.fzk.de> wrote in message
news:8dmrgu$6g9$1...@hiknews1.fzk.de...
jimmyb
you have it all
"David C. Stephens" <dcs...@ibm.net> wrote in message
news:38fef...@news1.prserv.net...
Jurupari
Those are difficult? Sure, ATUR has some tone centers you need to remember,
but Stella always seemed like a no brainer to me. Like Autumn leaves, it
should be readily learnable and transposable without too much difficulty, even
for jazzers who aren't quite at the journeyman level.
After reading input from here from some very astute players, I'm beginning to
think that I view "key" in a way that maybe others don't. If I know a song,
transposing something like The Duke or Lush Life, or maybe a cycle of thirds
tune is a little more difficult. To me, spontaneous transposition is an
excellent benchmark of whether I thoroughly understand a tune.
I once was the arranger for a Steely Dan clone band. We did all the tunes on
the album Aja, which was relatively new then,
and after a couple of performances, no one was reading. Since we were playing
dance music, the image thing had to be considered, and IMHO a music stand just
doesn't fit in with a light show, big hair and all the other crap you have to
do to get paid reasonably well. If we were wearin white tuxes and had a guy
wavin a baton up front, it might have been a different deal, but also a
different era.
>There's not much excuse for being unable to play a standard without
>having to read. If you don't know it, you should be able to hear it.
>
...sounds about right to me. The times I heard Joe Pass in solo performances,
he would tackle songs he didn't really know or hadn't played before if someone
asked for it. He did Invitation at my request, saying he wasn't sure if he
knew or remembered it, but when he started, he kicked butt! He did a neat
thing with Giant Steps in a few keys when someone asked. When possible, that's
the kind of standard I'd rather try to hold myself to as a performer. OTOH, my
sight reading sucks, so you have to take that into consideration too.
Tony Pearce
> much better than that you can play on something you really know
> well...maybe a blues or a rhythm changes tune. Now imagine you know 25
> tunes just as well. How bout 100? If you are honest with yourself, you
> know in your heart of hearts that you do really play much better when
> you don't need "to look". Don't you want to play at that level on all
> of the tunes?
>
This seems to be the essence of the argument. Well said Mark
Mark Kleinhaut
seem ludicrous to me for some to defend the practice of reading Autumn
Leaves (probably whilst playing for free at Borders) by offering
examples of symphony orchestras, big bands or even small groups playing
complex arrangements. Its just a world of difference, plain and
simple. Now as much as I firmly believe in memorization, I feel
equally committed to the issue of developing strong sight reading
chops. The are certainly not mutually exclusive. Hmmm, think we
should start another thread?? I know Wes didn't read, so I'm sure we
can have zeolots on both sides of that issue too. Lets do that on a
separte thread, however, if at all.
Tom Walls
says...
>
>> >I say burn the real book. Just imagine having to learn a tune by ear.
>What
>> >a concept. After a few months you will be able to hear tunes, melodies ,
>> >chords etc. After a few more months you'll be able to recognize the
>common
>> >chord changes used in most tunes. What did jazz musicians do before "The
>> >real Books" They got an ear for music
>>
>
>What a silly thread and a ridiculous comment. Let's do the same thing with
>books too. Why not learn all your stories and news from storytellers ?
>
>Jaz
>
>
Not if you take the "burn" comment figuratively. Sure a Fake book can be a
valuable tool, but it can also be a crutch. I don't think there's any doubt
that a tune is more within a player's grasp, once it's been memorized. Eh?
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Jeff Gower
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I never imagined this thread would rouse such controversy.
Aah, but Mark, you vastly underestimate our eager propensity to waste time
and energy on such frivolity. ;-)
Doh! I am being a smart-ass again! Dangit, Jeff!
> But it does
> seem ludicrous to me for some to defend the practice of reading Autumn
> Leaves (probably whilst playing for free at Borders) by offering
> examples of symphony orchestras, big bands or even small groups playing
> complex arrangements.
True, but the point attempted was, I think, that the mere existence of a
music stand does not necessarily render the music performance inferior.
No intelligent person would disagree that it is a far better thing to play
from memory, from the heart, than to rely on charts (I am a STRONG
believer in the supremely vast benefits of playing by ear!) - indeed,
almost all of the jazz musicians I've ever known or seen improvise without
staring at the charts. We just disagree on the relative importance of
whether someone glances at a chart now and then or not. I've seen too
many superb jazz performances with music stands 'n' charts to be a zealot
one way or the other.
Respectfully yours,
JAlbin1916
-John
Nuke "hatespam" to reply
JAlbin1916
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
>I once was the arranger for a Steely Dan clone band. We did all the tunes on
>the album Aja, which was relatively new then,
>and after a couple of performances, no one was reading. Since we were
>playing
>dance music, the image thing had to be considered, and IMHO a music stand
>just
>doesn't fit in with a light show, big hair and all the other crap you have to
>do to get paid reasonably well.
Unless you're actually Steely Dan :) I've seen them twice. Donald and Walter
both had music stands in front of them, and were paid millions, from what I
heard.
> >There's not much excuse for being unable to play a standard without
>>having to read. If you don't know it, you should be able to hear it.
>>
>...sounds about right to me. The times I heard Joe Pass in solo performances,
>he would tackle songs he didn't really know or hadn't played before if
>someone
>asked for it. He did Invitation at my request, saying he wasn't sure if he
>knew or remembered it, but when he started, he kicked butt! He did a neat
>thing with Giant Steps in a few keys when someone asked. When possible,
>that's
>the kind of standard I'd rather try to hold myself to as a performer.
So would we all, but JP set a helluva standard. I can usually play melodies
for tunes I've heard but don't really know, howver, to figure out changes, I
usually need to work from a chart or a recording. I bet a lot of us are in the
same boat. As an ideal, I aspire to Pass' level of musicianship, but I don't
kid myself about my chances of getting there.
I agree with the overall tenor of the thread -- it's better to know material
cold than read it on the bandstand -- but I'm pragmatic about it. For
instanceI know a very good piano player -- good ideas, time etc, a lot of fun
to play with. He doesn't have a lot of confidence in his ability to remember
changes, though, and always has the RB out. I wouldn't take it away from him.
David Moss
"Mark Kleinhaut" wrote:
> I never imagined this thread would rouse such controversy.
Aw c'mon - you must know the group better than that
by now! You could start a thread over what color socks
you should wear to gigs, you'd still get controversy. Any
ten jazz guitarists always have eleven opinions, and the
discussion is never complete until we've covered it all
the way from early medieval music to free improvisation.
That's the fun of it!
BTW, what color socks DID you use on the
Amphora recording sessions?
quilty...@hotmail.com
pre-classical, folk, blues etc.) all my life and always took it for
granted that I had to memorise the stuff. Now I'm sitting in with a
couple of jazz bands, and my main problem is that I can't read fast
enough. The stuff they're putting in front of me (Stella, All the
Things You Are, One Note Samba etc) seem like pretty hard work to me,
even with the sheet in front of me. And they do like thirty songs a
night. How many tunes do you guys know? Looks like the rest of my
life is booked up just figuring out the inversions on this stuff in
real time!
John Wasak
news:38b03593...@news-west.newscene.com...
> Interesting: I've been playing all sorts of guitar (classical,
> pre-classical, folk, blues etc.) all my life and always took it for
>
What is pre-classical? Unless you mean Classical as a period or style of
Classical music, then I guess pre-classical would mean Baroque or
Renaissance. If not, then you've lost me, and I've never really heard that
term used before, especially not in relation to guitar music.
JW
Jurupari
>you have it all
A freakin MEN!
Clif
Greg Clayton
reading on the gig just looks VERY unprofessional
Greg Clayton
Tony Pearce <tpe...@medicine.adelaide.edu.au> wrote in message
news:38FFFB5F...@medicine.adelaide.edu.au...
Greg Clayton
doesn't know the tune or tunes or playing a new tune live if you don't have
it down yet but, I really believe one must get one's eyes off the page as
soon as possible to really be free to concentrate on the music. And re Pat
Martino
I had the pleasure of seeing him live in '74 and during a week long gig I
saw at least 8 sets 2 full nights and several last sets after my gig ended
and NEVER saw ANY music This was when Live was being promoted as well as
the upcoming Consiousness so the tunes in the first 2 sets were from these
lp's the last set was always looser and Pat just played what he felt like
and it was AWESOME!! but I digress, I think the video you mention is after
his brain surgery and he suffers from lack of retention so it's probably
not a good example .
Greg Claytonnews:8dn7tg$acn$1...@hiknews1.fzk.de...
Stephen G. Carl
I know what you're saying, and I agree. I was responding
to someone who seemed to be condemming anyone's
reading on stage, and questioning whether Pat Martino
reads on stage or not. I read an interview where Pat said
he didn't trust his memory, even to this day. As far as
Grenadier with Metheny, Pat was calling his own tunes
which cover a 20+ year span. I doubt anyone except
he would remember all of the changes to all the tunes.
And of course, the orchestra is in a different category
altogether.
jimmyb <jbg...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:R3rL4.2282$GV5....@typhoon2.gnilink.net...
> I think the point is that if you do not have to rely on the real books you
> willl learn tunes and get a great ear. I don't think it is bad to read
> music on the bandstand. I may have missed the point of the thread as I
came
> in late
Kevin Van Sant
message <20000420092414...@ng-bk1.aol.com> :
>>Very few standards are as difficult as Stella or All the Things.
>
>Those are difficult? Sure, ATUR has some tone centers you need to remember,
>but Stella always seemed like a no brainer to me. Like Autumn leaves, it
>should be readily learnable and transposable without too much difficulty, even
>for jazzers who aren't quite at the journeyman level.
I don't want to speak for Thomas, but I think you are making his point
for him. True, Stella isn't a particularly hard song to play, but as
far as the old standards go it is among the more harmonically complex.
So if Stella is easy to learn and hear, certainly the majority of
other (simpler) standards should be easy for a reasonably experienced
ear to pick out without the need for a fakebook.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
Jazz Guitar
www.mindspring.com/~jazure/music.html - to buy my CDs and listen to J'Azure
www.onestopjazz.com - for a comprehensive index of internet jazz resources
www.mindspring.com/~kvansant - for jazz guitar samples and info
Mark Kleinhaut
"Stephen G. Carl" <sc...@netcarrier.com> wrote:
I was responding
> to someone who seemed to be condemming anyone's
> reading on stage,
Who said that?
Thomas F Brown
Jurupari <juru...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Very few standards are as difficult as Stella or All the Things.
>
>Those are difficult? Sure, ATUR has some tone centers you need to remember,
>but Stella always seemed like a no brainer to me. Like Autumn leaves, it
>should be readily learnable and transposable without too much difficulty, even
>for jazzers who aren't quite at the journeyman level.
We're talking about hearing a tune for the first time and being able
to play the chords without a chart. In that limited sense, then, yeah--
Stella and All The Things are way harder than, say, Sometimes I'm Happy
or Honeysuckle Rose. Any tunes with multiple key changes is going to
be harder to hear than a standard that does nothing but modulate to
the subdominant and back.
Jurupari
>
Good, thanks, Jeff, but I do miss Carolina. Your guitar does indeed make
sounds associated with very pretty pictures! This may be too much arithmetic,
but 3+4=4+3 is the truth I think the post (was it Jimmy's?) made. That hit the
nail on the head for me, as did the one about seeing a note triggering its
sound.
In other words, hearing a line or singing one in the mind is the same thing as
playing it.
>Dangit! And all this time I've been trying to make the guitar make sounds
>that are associated with pictures! ;-)
>
Me too! I think the subjective imagery and the associated feeling we can
sometimes provide to a listener is what makes them tolerate us. To paraphrase
Zappa, jazz ain't dead but it does smell funny.
Maybe we should start a thread on impressionism in jazz. It's a large part of
my playing, and it looks to me like you just 'fessed up too. (Between you 'n
me, Jerry lives!)
Best,
Clif
Jeff Gower
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
> Maybe we should start a thread on impressionism in jazz. It's a large part of
> my playing, and it looks to me like you just 'fessed up too.
Oh, I am most definitely an impressionist at heart (hence my enthusiasm
for Delius, Rypdal, Mompou, etc.). Like someone here wrote recently
(Kevin, Tom?) - the combination of space + flow is so important in music,
as is a certain degree of mystery/unpredictability. I prefer music that
is deceptively simple-sounding, but contains enough compositional depth to
reward repeated listenings, and is open/transparent enough to allow for
plenty of improvisational interpretation. But I HATE the doodling and
pointless space-filling that so many "impressionistic" guitarists do.
Space is like a vacuum that we just itch to fill in with notes, regardless
of whether they are worth playing. The challenge is to avoid doing that.
(I hope this doesn't sound too esoteric and, well, full of s@#*, haha - I
know exactly what I am thinking of, but it sure sounds silly in words).
> (Between you 'n me, Jerry lives!)
Amen, brother. Amen.
I still can't adequately express how rewarding it was, after all these
years, to meet someone who knew Jerry Davis and what a supremely sensitive
musician he was. He lives, indeed.
Tim Berens
<greg.c...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>In the absence of a large group or difficult/highly arranged material
>reading on the gig just looks VERY unprofessional
> Greg Clayton
It only looks unprofessional to other jazz musicians. Most listeners
don't care if you read as long as the music is good.
Tim
Tim Berens records for Red Mark Records
Sound clips on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004RC22/102-7001331-0566459
Joey Goldstein
Tim Berens wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:50:56 GMT, "Greg Clayton"
> <greg.c...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >In the absence of a large group or difficult/highly arranged material
> >reading on the gig just looks VERY unprofessional
> > Greg Clayton
>
> It only looks unprofessional to other jazz musicians. Most listeners
> don't care if you read as long as the music is good.
Most jazz musicians don't care if you read as long as the music is good.
It is only people who care about show biz and sight lines and fashion,
etc. who think about things like this. The best jazz is not about show
biz. It is about music.
I saw Gary Burton doing a live concert/recording and even he read a
couple of things.
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
Paul Craig Sanwald
:
: Good, thanks, Jeff, but I do miss Carolina. Your guitar does indeed make
:
Move Back!
--paul
Jurupari
As I said, I must view the concept of "key" a little differently. To me,
Stella's in only one key. It has dominants substituted for the diatonic chords
and a major subbed for a dominant, but the tone centers are in the scalar
positions of Bb. There are "backcycled" secondary 2-5's, as in the opening
statement (at least the way I play it) and elsewhere, but their targets are on
the Bb scale positions. I've been thinking about music in this manner for
years, and am at least within hailing distance of a statement I read in Joe
Dorio's 21st Century Intervallic designs wherein he related that key and chords
no longer held a grip on his playing. I'm not really there yet, but I know
what he means, and I know what George Van Eps meant when he said he was always
in twelve keys at once. Believe me, that was a major mystery to me for a long
time.
Identifying the similarities among virtually all songs in this manner has at
least made transposition much less of a headache. Learning two octaves to play
an accompanied melody in a single key is the remaining challenge, and I'm so-so
at that, but improving. By the time I'm dead, I'll probably be pretty good!
:o)
Jurupari
>(Kevin, Tom?) - the combination of space + flow is so important in music,
>as is a certain degree of mystery/unpredictability. I prefer music that is
deceptively simple-sounding, but contains enough compositional depth to
>reward repeated listenings, and is open/transparent enough to allow for
>plenty of improvisational interpretation.
So it won't start sounding like "guitar church" let me paraphase my previous
enthusiasm by relating that I am in unequivocal agreement with the preceding.
:o)
>I HATE the doodling and
>pointless space-filling that so many "impressionistic" guitarists do.
I didn't know there were any "impressionistic" guitarists or players who
defined themselves as such. Sounds like they made the _wrong_ impression,
though.
>I still can't adequately express how rewarding it was, after all these
>years, to meet someone who knew Jerry Davis and what a supremely sensitive
>musician he was. He lives, indeed.
My sentiments, too. I wish we could have introduced him to folks around here.
(I know he would have HATED computers, at least at first!)
Jeff, I don't know if you noticed, but recently a poster in another thread
made reference to Sophocles Papas and Frank Mullen, both of whom were teachers
of Jerry's. (Not that he really needed to be taught much!) I wonder if this
gent might also have been acquainted with him?
My wife at the time used to say to me repeatedly, "he's just the _nicest_ guy.
Doesn't he ever get mad, or anything?" If he did, I never knew about it. Also,
I doubt anyone else in life will ever give me a '52 Super 400 because it was
"just my extra guitar sittin' under the bed, and somebody oughta play the
thing". My '59 Les Paul Custom with PAF's became _my_ second guitar!
I had the same feeling on knowing he was fondly remembered. He would probably
have been much better known nationally if he'd lived. He showed me my first
octave harmonic lick, and he figured out how to do it by listening to Lenny B's
Shelly's Manne Hole recording! Although I still think of him every time I
pick up a guitar, it's a much better feeling knowing his memory is revered
elswhere. I better stop- I could write about him for hours.
But back to impressionism Bill Comstock, the guitarist with the Four Freshmen
told me that if I wanted to hear some good chord changes, to listen to Ravel's
Daphnis et Chloe. When I finally got around to it it changed everything!
JazzStrings
sound as good as somone else?
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Kevin Van Sant
<jazzstrin...@juno.com.invalid> wrote in message
<04747932...@usw-ex0102-013.remarq.com> :
>Is anybody saying that if I am using sheet music I will not
>sound as good as somone else?
I don't think anyone has said that, although someone might have said
if you *always* use sheet music on the bandstand you will not sound as
good as YOU if you didn't.
Jimmy Bruno
tunes
Clay Moore
<AJML4.101052$1C2.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>:
>In the absence of a large group or difficult/highly arranged material
>reading on the gig just looks VERY unprofessional
> Greg Clayton
I wish I could agree with this opinion and in a perfect world I would. I
don't know what it's like where you live, but around here it's extremely
difficult to work in one band with the same personnel frequently enough to
make ends meet. Case in point, my next quartet gig. The last bassist I was
hiring decided that he doesn't want to work in the club that most of my
gigs happen, so I've hired another player that I've worked with before -
someone who just recently quit a steady road gig. The drummer that I've
been using has a gig with his band on the same night as mine, so I've got a
sub for him as well. In addition, I'm waiting to find out if he is going to
take a road gig he was offered and when it will start. If it's soon I'll
have to find someone to replace him for the next two gigs I have coming up
in May. As it is I've been doing these dates with perhaps one rehearsal
before each one (if that much) and I can't require these guys to know my
book when I'm only landing a few gigs a month at best. Consequently we read
on the gig. Actually it's more like they read on the gig; I usually know
the tunes well enough to not have to read them myself.
Clay
Jack A. Zucker
>In the absence of a large group or difficult/highly arranged material
>reading on the gig just looks VERY unprofessional
> Greg Clayton
If you're playing in a band with arrangements and a huge repertoire, reading
charts is the norm.
Ever see a big band play?
Jaz
--
Jack A. Zucker
E-Mail: j...@jackzucker.com
Web : http://www.jackzucker.com
Jeff Gower
> and you will never improve your ear if you keep using the Real Book to learn
> tunes
Not to mention that many of the changes in the RB, like any fake book, are
simply not accurate (or at least not very good) - you still gotta do a
good deal of your own transcribing (by ear) to make the tunes come alive -
the RB serves only as a very VERY rudimentary template on which you must
build. If you played nothing but the changes as given in the RB you'd
sound pretty bland indeed, and oftentimes downright bad. Haha. But this
is a well-known thing amongst jazzers....just thought I'd bring it up.
Jeff Gower
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
> >I HATE the doodling and
> >pointless space-filling that so many "impressionistic" guitarists do.
>
> I didn't know there were any "impressionistic" guitarists or players who
> defined themselves as such. Sounds like they made the _wrong_ impression,
> though.
I was referring to alot of the new-agey types (even the good ones, haha),
with their endless arpeggios and ostinati, with not a beat to spare.
Also, many of the guitarists whom I respect VERY highly fall into this
type thing sometimes (Towner, for example). But I will let it go at that
- I don't like putting down others' playing.
> My sentiments, too. I wish we could have introduced him to folks around here.
> (I know he would have HATED computers, at least at first!)
So did I - if you'da told me 10 years ago that I'd be sitting at a
computer doing email and the like, not to mention have a website and all
that silliness, I'd have laughed incredulously. Naah, I think Jerry would
have, reluctantly perhaps, eventually latched onto the cyber-thing, at
least for the purposes of his Raleigh School of Guitar.
> Jeff, I don't know if you noticed, but recently a poster in another thread
> made reference to Sophocles Papas and Frank Mullen, both of whom were
teachers
> of Jerry's. (Not that he really needed to be taught much!) I wonder if this
> gent might also have been acquainted with him?
Maybe, but alot of folks were taught by Papas (and Mullen too, I believe),
so.....couldn't hurt to ask, though, if you remember who it was.
> My wife at the time used to say to me repeatedly, "he's just the
_nicest_ guy.
> Doesn't he ever get mad, or anything?" If he did, I never knew about it.
He didn't even rap me upside the head when I came to lesson unprepared
sometimes. ;-)
(Did I tell you he'd send me home with record albums or 45rpm's and
instructions to "play that tune(s) for me next week"? Best lessons I ever
had, learning to play by ear like that!)
> I doubt anyone else in life will ever give me a '52 Super 400 because it was
> "just my extra guitar sittin' under the bed, and somebody oughta play the
> thing". My '59 Les Paul Custom with PAF's became _my_ second guitar!
I bought my old Gretsch Chet Atkins Tennessean at the store in Wilson
where Jerry worked, back in 1969. Sold it years later for $150 - now it
sells for 10x that! Doh!!
> But back to impressionism Bill Comstock, the guitarist with the Four Freshmen
> told me that if I wanted to hear some good chord changes, to listen to Ravel's
> Daphnis et Chloe. When I finally got around to it it changed everything!
Exactly! Ravel was also an early inspiration to me, musically. I used to
transcribe (from the piano reductions) his music for guitar, just to get
into the harmonies and the modulations. I learned alot about harmony just
from transcribing Ravel, Debussy, and the like. Back in my teens when I
had nothing but time. ;-)
Unlike now.......
Later,
Greg Clayton
Greg Clayton
Jack A. Zucker <j...@gwis.com> wrote in message
news:O4uM4.10301$VR.2...@news5.giganews.com...
Greg Clayton
"I wish I could agree with this opinion and in a perfect world I would. I
> don't know what it's like where you live, but around here it's extremely
> difficult to work in one band with the same personnel frequently enough to
> make ends meet."
Clay , you do have a point.
I guess I'm fortunate in that here [Montreal] there are half a dozen bass
players who will know 90% of any bebop tunes or standards you might call and
at least that many others who will know at least every 2nd tune you can
name. In any case my point is that we all should strive to internalize the
music [and as many common repertoire tunes as possible] to be performed so
one can chase the bigger game such as form, time, ideas, group interplay,
spontaneous reharmonization etc as soon as possible and I really feel that
this can be better achieved and much faster when all are free of trying
to read. I'm old enough to have seen many of the famous groups such as
Dexter Gordon,Sonny Rollins.Miles, Lifetime,Mahavishnu, Art Blakey, Bill
Evans[who was breaking in his bassist and did have a book which the bassist
referred to a few times]Elvin Jones and many others when the economy allowed
smaller jazz clubs in many cities across North America to bring in groups
for one week engagements and I very rarely saw music onstage. A sign of the
times perhaps.
Greg Clayton
Thomas F Brown
Greg Clayton <greg.c...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> Clay , you do have a point.
>I guess I'm fortunate in that here [Montreal] there are half a dozen bass
>players who will know 90% of any bebop tunes or standards you might call and
Thye might know all the tunes, but they still won't know your
arrangements if they haven't rehearsed.
>I'm old enough to have seen many of the famous groups such as
>Dexter Gordon,Sonny Rollins.Miles, Lifetime,Mahavishnu, Art Blakey, Bill
>Evans[who was breaking in his bassist and did have a book which the bassist
>referred to a few times]Elvin Jones and many others when the economy allowed
>smaller jazz clubs in many cities across North America to bring in groups
>for one week engagements and I very rarely saw music onstage. A sign of the
>times perhaps.
I've seen almost all of those acts live, and yes, they didn't read.
But they did have arrangements that they had obviously rehearsed.
It wasn't all about playing the head in a ragged fashion and then
blowing. Even the loosest groups of the ones you mentioned--Rollins,
Blakey, Dexter, and Evans--had arrangements on nearly every tune.
That's not available to bands that aren't working together frequently,
unless they're willing to read.
Greg Clayton
obviously rehearsed.
I'm not so sure Obviously rehearsed is the correct term In
many cases presentations of tunes are developed through performance.
Any way were we talking about reading the real book on gigs or
playing showcase concerts ?
Even the loosest groups of the ones you mentioned--Rollins,
> Blakey, Dexter, and Evans--had arrangements on nearly every tune.
> That's not available to bands that aren't working together frequently,
> unless they're willing to read.
You mean the Fake books now have arrangements and not just lead
sheets full of sophmoric chord changes ? Guess I'd better get out and
get a few.
>
>
Thomas F Brown
Greg Clayton <greg.c...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Thomas Brown wrote But they did have arrangements that they had
>obviously rehearsed.
> I'm not so sure Obviously rehearsed is the correct term In
>many cases presentations of tunes are developed through performance.
Clay's point holds. If your band doesn't have time to develop
head arrangements through serial performances, and doesn't have
time to rehearse, then reading is the only alternative.
> Any way were we talking about reading the real book on gigs or
>playing showcase concerts ?
>
> Even the loosest groups of the ones you mentioned--Rollins,
>> Blakey, Dexter, and Evans--had arrangements on nearly every tune.
>> That's not available to bands that aren't working together frequently,
>> unless they're willing to read.
>
> You mean the Fake books now have arrangements and not just lead
>sheets full of sophmoric chord changes ? Guess I'd better get out and
>get a few.
Who's talking about fake books? You objected to people reading onstage,
period. You can't recreate the arrangements of these great bands without
either reading charts or rehearsing or both.
Jurupari
>>I was referring to alot of the new-agey types (even the good ones, haha),
>with their endless arpeggios and ostinati, with not a beat to spare.
Oh. Ugh.
>Also, many of the guitarists whom I respect VERY highly fall into this
>type thing sometimes (Towner, for example). But I will let it go at that
>- I don't like putting down others' playing.
Me either. Almost everybody gets into something good. I've always liked Keith
Jarrett's iterative stuff like the Koln concerts, etc.
>> My sentiments, too. I wish we could have introduced him to folks around
>here.
>> (I know he would have HATED computers, at least at first!)
>
>So did I - if you'da told me 10 years ago that I'd be sitting at a
>computer doing email and the like, not to mention have a website and all
>that silliness, I'd have laughed incredulously. Naah, I think Jerry would
>have, reluctantly perhaps, eventually latched onto the cyber-thing, at
>least for the purposes of his Raleigh School of Guitar.
Very true. Jerry was one of the few guitarists I ever knew who was an astute
businessman too. But he was also a "good ole boy!"
>(Did I tell you he'd send me home with record albums or 45rpm's and
>instructions to "play that tune(s) for me next week"? Best lessons I ever
>had, learning to play by ear like that!)
Frequently said by Jimmy Bruno here, too. There's nothing better for your ear.
It's really good to get the bass and drums and piano that way too if you can.
It's even easier now there's the slowdown software..
>> But back to impressionism Bill Comstock, the guitarist with the Four
>Freshmen
>> told me that if I wanted to hear some good chord changes, to listen to
>Ravel's
>> Daphnis et Chloe. When I finally got around to it it changed everything!
>
>Exactly! Ravel was also an early inspiration to me, musically. I used to
>transcribe (from the piano reductions) his music for guitar, just to get
>into the harmonies and the modulations. I learned alot about harmony just
>from transcribing Ravel, Debussy, and the like. Back in my teens when I
>had nothing but time. ;-)
Wow, piano reductions for guitar. I couldn't agree more about Ravel's sense of
harmony and modulation. He pretty much had his contemporaries in awe.
To me his orchestration concepts were equally advanced. His music is just
breathtaking to me. I'll have to characterize him as a lifetime influence.
I saw but didn't hear a CD from a guy here in town who does Alborado del
Gracioso and excerpts from Tombeau de Couperin. I always felt the "Apaches"
were mostly doable, and I love the McCoy Tyner-like clang of Ondine and its
midrange B pedal. I'd thought about goin' after that one myself, but I don't
have the recordings anymore. Gaspard? Naaaaah!
It would be so cool to hear about four guitarists going after La Valse. It
always reminds me of Vincent Price in a Poe story. It's such a hauntingly
beautiful descent into depravity with perhaps a soupcon of tongue in cheek.
Looks like this is a 2-man thread. Oh well....
>Unlike now.......
>
>Later,
>Jeff
>--
>Jeff Gower - Jazz/Classical Guitarist
>http://www.jeffgower.com
-and Clif
Jack A. Zucker
news:8dtvvh$1ncbv1$1...@news.jhu.edu...
> In article <H0vM4.135182$1C2.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> Greg Clayton <greg.c...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Clay , you do have a point.
> >I guess I'm fortunate in that here [Montreal] there are half a dozen bass
> >players who will know 90% of any bebop tunes or standards you might call
and
>
> Thye might know all the tunes, but they still won't know your
> arrangements if they haven't rehearsed.
Exactly.
Plus, I like to intersperse standards and original tunes and unless it's a
rhythm section I've played with many times, charts are the answer.
Typically, seasoned pros aren't interested in getting together to rehearse
for a $60 gig unless it's a steady gig . Typically, the groups that I've
seen not reading music are either "road" bands.
Real world example: When I saw McCoy Tyner, they were using charts. I don't
think anyone thought they were unprofessional.
Jack A. Zucker
news:H0vM4.135182$1C2.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> to read. I'm old enough to have seen many of the famous groups such as
> Dexter Gordon,Sonny Rollins.Miles, Lifetime,Mahavishnu, Art Blakey, Bill
> Evans[who was breaking in his bassist and did have a book which the
bassist
> referred to a few times]Elvin Jones and many others when the economy
allowed
> smaller jazz clubs in many cities across North America to bring in groups
> for one week engagements and I very rarely saw music onstage. A sign of
the
> times perhaps.
>
That's odd because I've seen many of the groups you've mentioned and almost
all of them used music on stage.
Jaz
Paul Craig Sanwald
:
: Real world example: When I saw McCoy Tyner, they were using charts. I don't
: think anyone thought they were unprofessional.
D'you see the trio? MAn what a great band. Just two weeks ago I drove 5 hours
to DC and back just to catch this trio at blues alley.
As far as reading goes, this subject has been discussed to death in the past.
Almost everyone has seen great artists reading tunes, but they're almost
always original or really 'non-standard' tunes. Personally I think reading
is fine on the bandstand, but I think pretty much anyone would do a double
take if they saw someone reading 'autumn leaves' on the bandstand and
it sounded ok.
--paul
Jimmy Bruno
to learn tunes you will never get an ear. I have always learned tunes from other
musicians or from a recording... never from the real book. When students show me
a tune from the real book it is comical to me because the harmony is so mis
leading to the point of sometimes being wrong. The 1st thing I do is play the
tune for them and have them try to figure out the harmony. Alteration and
extesions are never part of the tune. They result most times from the melody.
For example a melody note "Ab" over a G7 chord reads in the real book as g7-9.
Well that is wrong the harmony is G7 the "Ab" is a melody note which for that
beat makes the harmony g7-9 if you are analyzing it. It has no bearing on the
harmony. The harmonic function is dominant... period.
Jeff Gower
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
> Very true. Jerry was one of the few guitarists I ever knew who was an astute
> businessman too. But he was also a "good ole boy!"
Jerry and Charlie Byrd used to love that unique eastern NC barbeque (melts
in your mouth like cotton candy! haha). I never miss a chance to eat a
plate or two when I go back. Remember that stuff, Clif? Parker's BBQ in
Wilson; Don Murray's BBQ in Raleigh; and others in Kinston and Goldsboro,
etc..
> Frequently said by Jimmy Bruno here, too. There's nothing better for your ear.
> It's really good to get the bass and drums and piano that way too if you can.
Exactly - you work on the entire tune's arrangement and not just the
guitar parts - wonderful preparation for solo fingerstyle playing where
you play multiple parts. I used to say that I approached guitar-playing
more like a piano than a guitar.
> It's even easier now there's the slowdown software..
But that's cheating. ;-)
> Wow, piano reductions for guitar.
I didn't say that they were all possible to play, though! But I sure
learned alot about harmony from working on it. Worked through alot of
Debussy piano music - I love that stuff.
>I couldn't agree more about Ravel's sense of
> harmony and modulation. He pretty much had his contemporaries in awe.
He was a big admirer of Delius, who is unsurpassed (IMO) in elusive
modulations and rich harmonies - he was a master improviser on piano and
violin, and it shows in his music. Ravel liked it so much he did some
piano reductions of it (the "Margot La Rouge" music). Other jazzers, like
Ellington, Torme, Shearing, etc., were also big Delius fans.
> It would be so cool to hear about four guitarists going after La Valse. It
> always reminds me of Vincent Price in a Poe story. It's such a hauntingly
> beautiful descent into depravity with perhaps a soupcon of tongue in cheek.
The LA Quartet will probably get around to it one day. Ha!
> Looks like this is a 2-man thread. Oh well....
Two's company.....
Gary Persons
> You mean the Fake books now have arrangements and not just lead
> sheets full of sophmoric chord changes ? Guess I'd better get
> out and get a few.
I've kept quiet during this (and a couple of other discussions about the
same subject.)
I read on a gig. There...I've said it!
I was at a gig Friday night where two of my friends were playing (Barry
Zweig and Ron Anthony - both wonderful guitarists with great credits
like Merv Griffin, Frank Sinatra, George Shearing, etc.) and...THEY were
reading!
When I do a quartet or quintet gig, I bring MY OWN books - I have a copy
for Bass, Drums, Piano, and a Bb and and an Eb. That way, no matter who
plays, I'm covered. These are designed for whoever I hire to get the
intros, the endings, and any unusual changes. Plus have the book is my
own tunes. I doubt very much if anybody on this list knows the changes
to "Eye of Newt". (I wrote it - not a bad tune...it's been played by
several small bands.)
Somebody else hit the nail on the head:
The audience doesn't care! My books are designed to make a gig go
smoothly and sound good.
So there...
!^NavFont02F03AD0008JGB5HJAE9391
Clay Moore
>Clay Moore wrote
>"I wish I could agree with this opinion and in a perfect world I would.
>I
>> don't know what it's like where you live, but around here it's
>> extremely difficult to work in one band with the same personnel
>> frequently enough to make ends meet."
>
> Clay , you do have a point.
>I guess I'm fortunate in that here [Montreal] there are half a dozen
>bass players who will know 90% of any bebop tunes or standards you might
>call and at least that many others who will know at least every 2nd tune
>you can name.
I know a number of bassists here in town that know most of the standards and
bop tunes as well - but I want to play some other tunes besides the obvious
when I'm the bandleader. Yes, sometimes that's the way it has to be for lack of
prep time, but I like to play at least a couple of my tunes and some other
tunes that aren't in the common repertoire. How many of the cats in Montreal
know "The Theme From Mannix" for example, or "Sunshine Alley" off of Stanley
Turrentine's "Sugar" album? This is the balance that I and a lot of others have
to strike in order to work - you don't want to only do the same standards that
everyone has already done to death (the clubowners have all heard "Stella" a
million times already), but there's not sufficient work to warrant rehearsing a
band enough times to dispense with written music altogether. Speaking of which,
I saw Stanley Turrentine a few years ago at Jazz Alley in Seattle, and they
played a relatively new tune on the gig, and they read it. I think this point
has been made copious times already, but we've all seen cats reading on the gig
at all kinds of levels.
Clay
John Wasak
> Wow, piano reductions for guitar. I couldn't agree more about Ravel's
sense of
> harmony and modulation. He pretty much had his contemporaries in awe.
>
just
> breathtaking to me. I'll have to characterize him as a lifetime
influence.
>
> I saw but didn't hear a CD from a guy here in town who does Alborado del
> Gracioso and excerpts from Tombeau de Couperin. I always felt the
"Apaches"
> were mostly doable, and I love the McCoy Tyner-like clang of Ondine and
its
> midrange B pedal. I'd thought about goin' after that one myself, but I
don't
> have the recordings anymore. Gaspard? Naaaaah!
>
It
> always reminds me of Vincent Price in a Poe story. It's such a hauntingly
> beautiful descent into depravity with perhaps a soupcon of tongue in
cheek.
>
There's a classical guitarist by the name of Anders Miolin who plays an 11
string guitar. He has a CD out that's all Ravel. Includes Alborada Del
Gracioso, Pavanne, some things from Ma Mere L'Oye, Le Tombeau de Couperin,
and "Le Gibet" from Gaspard! Hey, I'm a fan of Ravel too!
Did I just make this a 3-man thread?
JW
Jeff Gower
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There's a classical guitarist by the name of Anders Miolin who plays an 11
> string guitar. He has a CD out that's all Ravel. Includes Alborada Del
> Gracioso, Pavanne, some things from Ma Mere L'Oye, Le Tombeau de Couperin,
> and "Le Gibet" from Gaspard! Hey, I'm a fan of Ravel too!
Thanks for the recommendation, John! I will be searching out this CD, for
sure. I'm very interested to hear how he does some of this.
smolderen
>
> Jurupari <juru...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Wow, piano reductions for guitar. I couldn't agree more about Ravel's
> sense of
> > harmony and modulation. He pretty much had his contemporaries in awe.
> >
> > To me his orchestration concepts were equally advanced. His music is
> just
> > breathtaking to me. I'll have to characterize him as a lifetime
> influence.
> >
> > I saw but didn't hear a CD from a guy here in town who does Alborado del
> > Gracioso and excerpts from Tombeau de Couperin. I always felt the
> "Apaches"
> > were mostly doable, and I love the McCoy Tyner-like clang of Ondine and
> its
> > midrange B pedal. I'd thought about goin' after that one myself, but I
> don't
> > have the recordings anymore. Gaspard? Naaaaah!
> >
> > It would be so cool to hear about four guitarists going after La Valse.
> It
> > always reminds me of Vincent Price in a Poe story. It's such a hauntingly
> > beautiful descent into depravity with perhaps a soupcon of tongue in
> cheek.
> > Looks like this is a 2-man thread. Oh well....
> >
>
> string guitar. He has a CD out that's all Ravel. Includes Alborada Del
> Gracioso, Pavanne, some things from Ma Mere L'Oye, Le Tombeau de Couperin,
> and "Le Gibet" from Gaspard! Hey, I'm a fan of Ravel too!
>
>
> JW
I strongly recommend Carlos Barbosa-Lima's " Impressions" (Debussy,
Ravel, Satie, Fauré..).
His other CDs wiht Gerschwin, Carlos Jobim, Luiz Bonfa and Cole
Porter songs are marvelous too. Classical guitar in the brazilian
tradition, with incredible tone and swing.
T.Smolderen
Jurupari
>in your mouth like cotton candy! haha). I never miss a chance to eat a
>plate or two when I go back. Remember that stuff, Clif?
Sure do, but I remember Jerry, Charlie and me chowin' down on the Frog and
Nightgown's entrecote marchand du vin with dilled fresh green beans in garlic
butter and those fantastic rough-cut potato-shallot pancakes in sour cream that
Harold Hopfenberg kind of invented. Big favorite of Jerry's and mine. We were
frequent flyers :o)
Billy Reichenbach, Charlie's drummer dubbed my ex-wife (head waitress of the
joint) "crazylegs" at about that time. That nickname came back everytime they
did!
We're talkin chopped kettle-barbecued pork, right? Well, if yer in Carolina,
OK, but my taste buds really favor a slow-cooked brisket over green Kansas shag
bark hickory. If you asked my taste buds, shag bark = Ravel, Carolina hog-cue
= Max Reger. (Had to wend that back to impressionism somehow!)
But to be truthful, you'd frequently see me with a plate of chopped cue
during my seeming life sentence at the Barbecue Palace in Durham with Peter
Green and the Groovers!
That could be a cool place on occasion. Our sit-ins at times included Donald
Byrd, Joe Chambers, Roland Wilson, Joe Henderson, Booker Ervin. Patty LaBelle
offered me a job when she heard me there, but I'd just joined the band and
couldn't ethically just pick up and go.
(This was WAY before Lady Marmalade, but her piano player later started calling
himself Elton John! It was Nigel something or the other in those days if I
remember right.)
Where the heck are those opportunities now that I can play a little bit? Oh,
yeah, almost forgot. With the cue you got collard greens and hushpuppies!
The galumphing gourmand,
Clif Kuplen
http://members.aol.com/jurupar
Thomas F Brown
smolderen <thierry....@smtp.wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>I strongly recommend Carlos Barbosa-Lima's " Impressions" (Debussy,
>Ravel, Satie, Fauré..).
>His other CDs wiht Gerschwin, Carlos Jobim, Luiz Bonfa and Cole
>Porter songs are marvelous too. Classical guitar in the brazilian
>tradition, with incredible tone and swing.
I don't hear much swing in Carlos's playing, even in the bossa
tunes. I find his time feel a bit stiff. Great arranger, though.
Jack A. Zucker
pop dance clubs!
--
--
Jack A. Zucker
E-Mail: j...@jackzucker.com
Web : http://www.jackzucker.com
"Clay Moore" <cl...@claymoore.com> wrote in message
news:8F1FEC08Fcla...@207.155.183.82...
Jeff Gower
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
> Sure do, but I remember Jerry, Charlie and me chowin' down on the Frog and
> Nightgown's entrecote marchand du vin with dilled fresh green beans in garlic
> butter and those fantastic rough-cut potato-shallot pancakes in sour
cream that
> Harold Hopfenberg kind of invented.
My, my, weren't ya'll gettin' all uppity-ass fancified?!
> We're talkin chopped kettle-barbecued pork, right?
Yep - the kind with the vinegar/texas-pete mixed in with it. Yum!
> If you asked my taste buds, shag bark = Ravel, Carolina hog-cue
> = Max Reger. (Had to wend that back to impressionism somehow!)
I actually like Reger. I'd never relate down-n-dirty NC-BBQ to Ravel,
that is for sure.
> But to be truthful, you'd frequently see me with a plate of chopped cue
> during my seeming life sentence at the Barbecue Palace in Durham with Peter
> Green and the Groovers!
You played the BBQ Palace, eh? What a gig that must have been - playing
for s#$%kickers eatin' BBQ. Haha.
(Just kidding - I've played at much worse places up in Waterbury, CT area
- where the patrons looked like they just stepped off the set of a
Godfather movie - "family"type folk - jeesh, I don't miss that crap at
all!)
> That could be a cool place on occasion. Our sit-ins at times included Donald
> Byrd, Joe Chambers, Roland Wilson, Joe Henderson, Booker Ervin.
Wow. Well, people with soul know good BBQ, so I am not surprised.
>Patty LaBelle
> offered me a job when she heard me there, but I'd just joined the band and
> couldn't ethically just pick up and go.
You mean to tell me that BBQ gig was worth passing up the LaBelle
gig???? Haha.
> Where the heck are those opportunities now that I can play a little bit?
Yeah, but you're an old fart now, right? ;-)
> With the cue you got collard greens and hushpuppies!
Collards - more 'melt-in-your-mouth' goodness. Remember those
corn-sticks? And brunswick stew? Boiled potatoes with the paprika? And
tea so sugared-up it was viscous.
> The galumphing gourmand,
Haha!
I guess we'd better lay off these food threads - I'm gaining weight just
writing about it. (Also, this IS a jazz guitar newsgroup, I think......)
John Wasak
Gotta' agree with Thomas on this. CB-L's arrangements are what makes his
stuff interesting. He's a good guitarist too but when he plays popular and
bossa most times it just falls short. His sense of swing is a little
straight-jacketed.
JW
John Wasak
Jeff Gower <jgo...@gator.net> wrote:
> In article <2ZMM4.65109$y4.20...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
11
> > string guitar. He has a CD out that's all Ravel. Includes Alborada Del
> > Gracioso, Pavanne, some things from Ma Mere L'Oye, Le Tombeau de
Couperin,
> > and "Le Gibet" from Gaspard! Hey, I'm a fan of Ravel too!
>
> sure. I'm very interested to hear how he does some of this.
>
Jeff, you can get it at Amazon.com. You can even hear a little sample of
this music there.
JW
Jurupari
Naw, we all warshed it down wif a YooHoo.. 'cep'n Billy, he had him a big ol'
aR-uh C.
>You played the BBQ Palace, eh? What a gig that must have been - playing
>for s#$%kickers eatin' BBQ.
...or the other way around...
>corn-sticks?
You hung in Waterbury too long. That's a hushpuppy! Fageddibatit! Move to Nu
BRIH-enn.
>And brunswick stew?
A drunk on Brunswick Stew: Do I eat this, or did I? (Really, I love the
stuff!) Ahh, the memories!
Oh, yeah - jazz. sorry...
clif
Jurupari
>straight-jacketed.
>
>JW
Give him a Champale and a gig at the Barbecue Palace!
Clif
Jeff Gower
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
> >corn-sticks?
>
> You hung in Waterbury too long. That's a hushpuppy!
Nope - different thing - corn sticks were cornbread cooked into a 6" long
stick. Quite different from hushpuppies. Most places don't serve the
greasy corn sticks anymore, in favor of the sweeter 'puppies.
Thomas F Brown
Jurupari <juru...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>And brunswick stew?
>
>A drunk on Brunswick Stew: Do I eat this, or did I? (Really, I love the
>stuff!) Ahh, the memories!
I'm always afraid to order Brunswick stew. I always seem to get
meat that looks like it came off a squirell or a rabbit or
a possum or some other animal that god never intended to be
wrapped in cellophane and frozen.
Jurupari
>meat that looks like it came off a squirell or a rabbit or
>a possum or some other animal that god never intended to be
>wrapped in cellophane and frozen.
>
That's about the size of it. It sounds classier than critter du jour, maybe.
Corn sticks must have come along later - never saw 'em. Oughta put in a good
word for lemon chess pie, though.
Segue to Columbus, Ga. and the Top Hat. Yardbird what AM!
Here in Colorado we eat weeds and rocks, mostly.
Clif
smolderen
>
> In article <3903B3...@wanadoo.fr>,
> smolderen <thierry....@smtp.wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> >
> >I strongly recommend Carlos Barbosa-Lima's " Impressions" (Debussy,
> >Ravel, Satie, Fauré..).
> >His other CDs wiht Gerschwin, Carlos Jobim, Luiz Bonfa and Cole
> >Porter songs are marvelous too. Classical guitar in the brazilian
> >tradition, with incredible tone and swing.
>
> I don't hear much swing in Carlos's playing, even in the bossa
> tunes. I find his time feel a bit stiff. Great arranger, though.
Thinking about it, what I really meant by Barbosa-Lima's "incredible
swing" was actually "considering that he plays with apparently no
swing at all, in a purely classical guitar fashion". It's probably a
matter of taste -more and more I've come to appreciate swing when it
is understated.
Thierry
RobinsonCHAZZ
> >real Books" They got an ear for music
>
What a silly thread and a ridiculous comment. Let's do the same thing with
books too. Why not learn all your stories and news from storytellers ?
Jaz
--
Jack A. Zucker
Cleveland, OH US
email: j...@jackzucker.com
web: http://www.jackzucker.com
>>I remeber how it was, you did build a strong repitoire by ear but for
certain tunes that neither you or anyone else in your area had figured out you
might have to wait years until someone came along who could show them to you.
(There was, however, more of an exchange of information in those days--on
breaks and before and after gigs--in fact it was almost traditional to go
somewhere after the gig and talk about music, write changes on napkins etc.)
But I also remember the seasick feeling that you got when kids started coming
out of the schools sightreading and improvising
on (in a few hours) tunes that it had taken you years to learn. The optimum
seems to be a combination of the old and new ways. CR
RobinsonCHAZZ
accompaniest--CR (What does all of this have to do with book burning?)
Jurupari
>accompaniest--CR (What does all of this have to do with book burning?)
>
indelible impression - ism? It came from an odd place but this _is_
impressionism. If I whup out some gospel changes, here come images of Top Hat
chicken, the Fountain City Veterans' Club, Soldiers Payday during the 'Nam,
and acres of hookers in Sunday refinement amblin' out to the gates at Ft
Benning. It doesn't have to be a summer afternoon in starched linens,
haberdashery and walking sticks in the dappled shadows of a boat dock at La
Grenouillerie in une centurie defunte. Wasn't there, didn't do that. Hey,
Aaron's cool!
Clif
RobinsonCHAZZ
Aaron's cool! >>
Yeah, I was stranded in a motel there when he came by my room and asked me If I
wanted to play. For about a month we did nothing but play/sing old standards
and drink wine (he should make an all jazz recording). The gig that I worked
with him there was probably the last one that he played before he went into a
period of retirement from the music scene. Didn't need a Real Book on that one.
Bon Soir,CR
Jurupari
Clif
chris berbaum
available CD that has Ravel's "Daphnis et Chloe", =/or the piano reductions? TIA
cb
Jurupari wrote:
> >
> >>I was referring to alot of the new-agey types (even the good ones, haha),
> >with their endless arpeggios and ostinati, with not a beat to spare.
>
> Oh. Ugh.
>
> >Also, many of the guitarists whom I respect VERY highly fall into this
> >type thing sometimes (Towner, for example). But I will let it go at that
> >- I don't like putting down others' playing.
>
> Me either. Almost everybody gets into something good. I've always liked Keith
> Jarrett's iterative stuff like the Koln concerts, etc.
>
> >> My sentiments, too. I wish we could have introduced him to folks around
> >here.
> >> (I know he would have HATED computers, at least at first!)
> >
> >So did I - if you'da told me 10 years ago that I'd be sitting at a
> >computer doing email and the like, not to mention have a website and all
> >that silliness, I'd have laughed incredulously. Naah, I think Jerry would
> >have, reluctantly perhaps, eventually latched onto the cyber-thing, at
> >least for the purposes of his Raleigh School of Guitar.
>
> Very true. Jerry was one of the few guitarists I ever knew who was an astute
> businessman too. But he was also a "good ole boy!"
>
> >(Did I tell you he'd send me home with record albums or 45rpm's and
> >instructions to "play that tune(s) for me next week"? Best lessons I ever
> >had, learning to play by ear like that!)
>
> Frequently said by Jimmy Bruno here, too. There's nothing better for your ear.
> It's really good to get the bass and drums and piano that way too if you can.
> It's even easier now there's the slowdown software..
>
> >> But back to impressionism Bill Comstock, the guitarist with the Four
> >Freshmen
> >> told me that if I wanted to hear some good chord changes, to listen to
> >Ravel's
> >> Daphnis et Chloe. When I finally got around to it it changed everything!
> >
> >Exactly! Ravel was also an early inspiration to me, musically. I used to
> >transcribe (from the piano reductions) his music for guitar, just to get
> >into the harmonies and the modulations. I learned alot about harmony just
> >from transcribing Ravel, Debussy, and the like. Back in my teens when I
> >had nothing but time. ;-)
>
> Wow, piano reductions for guitar. I couldn't agree more about Ravel's sense of
> harmony and modulation. He pretty much had his contemporaries in awe.
>
> To me his orchestration concepts were equally advanced. His music is just
> breathtaking to me. I'll have to characterize him as a lifetime influence.
>
> I saw but didn't hear a CD from a guy here in town who does Alborado del
> Gracioso and excerpts from Tombeau de Couperin. I always felt the "Apaches"
> were mostly doable, and I love the McCoy Tyner-like clang of Ondine and its
> midrange B pedal. I'd thought about goin' after that one myself, but I don't
> have the recordings anymore. Gaspard? Naaaaah!
>
> It would be so cool to hear about four guitarists going after La Valse. It
> always reminds me of Vincent Price in a Poe story. It's such a hauntingly
> beautiful descent into depravity with perhaps a soupcon of tongue in cheek.
> Looks like this is a 2-man thread. Oh well....
>
> >Unlike now.......
> >
> >Later,
> >Jeff
> >--
> >Jeff Gower - Jazz/Classical Guitarist
> >http://www.jeffgower.com
>
> -and Clif
Jurupari
store on cassette back in the early '80's. The recordings weren't particularly
hard to find, but you may get stuck with multiple recordings of his "audience
pieces" along with the good stuff. I don't know about sheet music, since my
objective was to learn the changes from the recordings. I don't have them
anymore, unfortunately.
Regards,
Clif Kuplen
http://members.aol.com/jurupari