Vid: Pat Martino Multiple Substitutions Demonstration
charles robinson
Charlie
pmfan57
wrote:
> Pat Martino demonstrating 4 different minors over dominant #5 chord:
>
>
> Charlie
Thanks. I have to check this guy out! ;-)
charles robinson
Charlie
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1191353481.8...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
brian.b...@gmail.com
wrote:
> Pat Martino demonstrating 4 different minors over dominant #5 chord:
>
>
> Charlie
First, let me say I think the man is an absolutely wonderful guitarist
and I'm a huge fan, but I have to ask : does anyone else think it's
hard to learn when the demo licks go by at the speed of light? I know
there must be four minor 7ths in there somewhere...I guess I have to
take his word for it. :-)
-b.
pmfan57
I think there might have been a booklet. I will say that for each
minor sound and position, he has certain characteristic lines that he
plays in these instructional vids. These are all variations on those.
sde...@mac.com
It is not the intention of the video for you to copy or perform the
notes that Pat is demonstrating.
This is a segment out of context, and is not showing the full picture
of the Martino Blueprint for this topic.
Please see The Nature of Guitar on his website for more info in full
context, or get the complete video series.
The examples shown can briefly be described as a Tri-Tone Sub concept
expanded.
Just As Gb7b5 and C7b5 are inversions of themselves. Dom 7th keys are
related from the dim chord by only 1 note away from C7 - Eb7 - Gb7 -
A7 the tri-tone sub is expanded to a minor third stack.
By adding the concept of an added note to the bass you get an A
augmented over G ( A aug/G or A7#5 ) The Augmented triad is also a
"Parental for on the guitar" and this brief example will help unify
the relationship of the 2 parental forms.
But I feel very strongly that to absorb this Material as it is
intended it should be viewed in order as Presented by Pat.
Keith Freeman
> hard to learn when the demo licks go by at the speed of light?
play fluently enough to match the speed of the CD playing surely doesn't
need the CD? ;-}
-Keith
Portable Changes, tips etc. at http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
e-mail only to keith DOT freeman AT orange DOT nl
Ludwig77
Here's where Pat is losing me.
Over an A7#5 chord, he'll say something like, here's me playing Em7.
Em7 is a chord but I hear him playing a scale. Now, it could be an Em7
arpeggio, but it sounds so scalar.
Are these scales or arpeggios?
Secondly, I wrote down what he's trying to demonstrate on the video:
Em7
Bbm7
Gm7
Dbm7
The roots of these arps or scales, outline an the Edim arpeggio.
E is the fifth note of the A7#5. Bb is the b9th, G the b7 and Db the
3rd.
This is the type of information that I need to store on the "sticky"
side of my brain if I'm going to be able to apply this stuff.
pmfan57
His first choice would normally be Bbm7, and his ear and taste would
stress a jazz melodic minor pitch set to give you all the altered
tensions. But Pat also plays minors based on the fifth (Em7) of a
dominant 7 chord, as well as the b7 and the third, and likes to mix
them up.
Note how the root sequence forms a diminished 7 chord. G, Bb, Db (C#)
and E.
If you play a minor based on the b7 (Gm) you get the phrygian sound,
which includes the #9, the b7 and the #5 of A.
sde...@mac.com
Maybe this will help
http://www.newyorkjazzpodcast.com/sunny.html
Look for the Patterns in the Star
Stack minor/melodic Material in Minor thirds and consider this one
topic that has Multiple Subs.
Look at this exercise on you tube as a piece to the bigger Blueprint
"The 12 pointed Star"
best
scott
also ask Pat your self at http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?t=14335
Reading the whole board will help resolve your question I hope.
Joey Goldstein
> Guys,
>
> Here's where Pat is losing me.
>
> Over an A7#5 chord, he'll say something like, here's me playing Em7.
>
> Em7 is a chord but I hear him playing a scale. Now, it could be an Em7
> arpeggio, but it sounds so scalar.
>
> Are these scales or arpeggios?
He's playing lines that strongly outline the min7 chords in his list.
The way you outline a chord in a line is by emphasizing the CTs in
particular ways.
To my ear, his lines sound like they are based primarily on the dorian
scale built on the superimposed chord's root.
I.e. When he superimposes an Em7 line over A7#5 he's bsed mostly on E
dorian, etc.
But he may not be thinking about dorian at all.
He's definitely using the chromatic scale though, but directing it
towards the notes in Em7.
> Secondly, I wrote down what he's trying to demonstrate on the video:
>
> Em7
> Bbm7
> Gm7
> Dbm7
>
> The roots of these arps or scales, outline an the Edim arpeggio.
>
> E is the fifth note of the A7#5. Bb is the b9th, G the b7 and Db the
> 3rd.
The concept is based on certain strong relationships that exist in Tonal
harmony, but uses them in a sort of ambiguous manner that weakens them
somewhat, while still leaving their effects to be felt.
Forget that he's using A7#5 in his example for now. Let's just call it A7.
In the key of D major, A7 is very closely associated with Em7 in what is
called a IIm7-V7 pair.
In the key of D minor, A7 is similarly related to Em7b5.
A7b9 is diatonic to the key of D minor and is the regular version of V7
in that key. When A7b9 is used as V7 in D major, which is done all the
time, it's sort of a a borrowed sound from D minor.
A7b9 = C#dim7/A
Because C#dim7 is a symmetrical chord with 3 enharmonic equivalents
(Edim7, Gdim7 and Bbdim7), A7b9 is also very closely related to C7b9
(C7b9 = Edim7/C), to Eb7b9 (Eb7b9 = Gdim7/Eb) and to F#7b9 (F#7b9 =
A#dim7/F#).
Many lines that work over A7 or C#dim7 will also work over C7, Eb7 and
F#7. And visa versa.
C7, as V7 in F, is closely related to Gm7 and to Gm7b5.
Eb7, as V7 in Ab, is closely related to Bbm7 and Bbm7b5.
F#7, as 7 in B, is closely related to C#m7 and C#m7b5.
So, the effect that PM is getting is really a type of bi-tonality
between two keys that are related to each other via the symmetrical
division of the octave into 4 equal parts which is what a dim7 chord
does. It sound "out" but it also sounds coherent and therefore "in" as well.
By using A7#5, which is a somewhat dissonant sound with a certain level
of harmonic ambiguity on its own, it opens up the door to the ear being
more accepting of the bi-tonal effects he's getting with his
superimpositions. But all his stuff would work too over a vanilla A7 chord.
> This is the type of information that I need to store on the "sticky"
> side of my brain if I'm going to be able to apply this stuff.
>
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
At least that's the way I look at it.
PM probably has a whole other way of talking about it.
pmfan57
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
He says he's not thinking "dorian" as such, but mostly (not always)
dorian type stuff comes out of the guitar when he plays "minor".
pmfan57
> > joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
>
> He says he's not thinking "dorian" as such, but mostly (not always)
> dorian type stuff comes out of the guitar when he plays "minor".
Well, Dorian, and some melodic minor mixed in during ascending
passages.
cl...@claymoore.com
I'd go a bit further and just say "minor," as in dorian, natural
minor, melodic, harmonic, minor pentatonic, and blues scales. I think
that's Pat's point as well, that he's not using modes or scales per se
but his own "minor" licks, which *could* be analyzed using the above
scales but it's not the way he came up with them. The other thing that
makes it difficult IMO to label these as particular scales is - as
Joey G pointed out - he's uses a lot of chromaticism to change
positions and to land on chord tones on strong beats.
Another facet of Pat's approach is he often takes a line based on a
fingering shape and uses the same shape on different strings to
resolve the same way. For example, he might play a line starting on
the 4th string that goes like this:
4th stg F F#
3rd stg A#
2nd stg Eb D
The line is like a D7 alt going to G or Gm and resolves when he hits
the D. The D7 could be there in the changes or he might just imply it.
But, he'll take that same shape and play it on the 1-3 strings and
resolve G7 to C or Cm. He talked about doing this in the seminar I
attended years ago.
Clay
Joey Goldstein
That's like that part in The Great Stream head:
C A F
2 3 4 (strings)
followed by
Ab E C
3 4 5
pmfan57
> > does anyone else think it's
> > hard to learn when the demo licks go by at the speed of light?
>
> That's often struck me about the CDs provided with books. Anyone who can
> play fluently enough to match the speed of the CD playing surely doesn't
> need the CD? ;-}
>
> -Keith
>
> e-mail only to keith DOT freeman AT orange DOT nl
You don't have to match the speed of the CD. It just gives you a
better idea of what it's supposed to sound like. You can certainly
play it slower and gradually ramp up by use of the 'nome.
mike
wrote:
> Pat Martino demonstrating 4 different minors over dominant #5 chord:
>
>
> Charlie
That is one garish guitar. Pat always seems to like that. I like his
playing a lot and I think he is one great person and music
intellectual, but his tone doesn't complement his playing, IMO. I
thought he had great tone in the 60s. Oh well....
Keith Freeman
> better idea of what it's supposed to sound like. You can certainly
> play it slower and gradually ramp up by use of the 'nome.
each transcription, one at a slower practice tempo.
-Keith
Portable Changes, tips etc. at http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/