Bergonzi Pentatonic Patterns: quick intro + examples and pdf
Uil Loi
Patterns" (as explained in his "Melodic Structures" book).
I derived all the possible patterns (given some reasonable
constraints), organized them by "modes", and applied them to some
common pentatonics.
Let me know if you find it useful.
This stuff is very challenging on the guitar (it's actually what
pushed me towards the P4s tuning), while for some sax players (e.g.
Brecker and Potter) it's just second nature.
I can hear some of these things in the modern players (Rosenwinkel,
Rogers, Kreisberg), but this "digital patterns" idiom seems a bit
foreign on the guitar.
Joey Goldstein
"To my knowledge Jerry Bergonzi has been the first to logically organize
and teach in a simple and consistent way the pentatonic style first
explored by John Coltrane."
You must be pretty young.
When I was coming up, in the early 70s, there were already several
Coltrane-esque pattern-oriented books on the market.
Some of them dealt with non-pentatonic scales as well as pentatonic scales.
Eg. Patterns For Jazz
<http://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Jazz-Treble-Jerry-Coker/dp/0898987032>
Technique Development In 4ths,
<http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Technique-Development-in-Fourths-for-Jazz-Improvisation/1505592>
Repository Of Scales and Melodic Patterns
<http://www.yuseflateef.com/FANAMusic/repository.html>
Pentatonic Scales For Jazz Improvisation
<http://www.ebookee.net/Pentatonic-Scales-For-Jazz-Improvisation_172948.html>
[That's just the few that I remember.
And of course almost the entire rock guitar educational idiom is set up
around min pent patterns.]
Then there's the book that Trane actually practised from himself, The
Thesauras Of Scales and Melodic Patterns by Nicholas Slonimsky.
Jerry Bergonzi's book is probably more systematic than any of these in
the area of pentatonic patterns and he explores a greater variety of
pentatonic scale-types.
He's also the first I've seen to apply the technique with the up and
down arrows to the patterns, which is derived from 12-tone technique I
believe.
Most writers just write the patterns out and expect that the student
will intuit how to transpose the pattern through the scale and then
through the various keys on their own.
And at the risk of being rude...
I can't see anything on your page that could not be construed as being
direct plagiarism of Bergonzi's material.
At least you could have your own slant on things or present things a bit
more differently than he does.
As one plagiarist to another...
When I was posting material that I learned from Charlie Banacos I at
least tried to present it differently than he did and from different
angles than he did.
"Not many guitarists (or trumpet players) seem to have explored these
possibilities, and this style is probably easier to master on sax or piano."
Mike Stern, John Scofield, John Abercrombie, Pat Metheny, Wayne Krantz,
Pat Martino, Rez Abassi, Mike Munoz, Sonny Greenwich, etc. are a few
other guitar players who have explored this vocabulary fairly
extensively among other things they have also explored.
The only trumpet players I can think of off the top of my head are Woody
Shaw and Dave Douglas.
Sorry Uil. You appear to be a real nice guy who means well and I don't
mean to be excessively negative all the time with your posts.
It's just the way I see it.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Uil Loi
> Repository Of Scales and Melodic Patterns
> <http://www.yuseflateef.com/FANAMusic/repository.html>
> Pentatonic Scales For Jazz Improvisation
Yes, I'm younger than you, but not that young anymore. I've heard
about most of the books you cited, and read some. B is the most
systematic I've seen.
I'm not plagiarizing anybody: "to steal and pass off (the ideas or
words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without
crediting the source".
I gave him all the credit I could and linked to his site. I'm mister
nobody, and he's a monster player.
Anyways, I don't remember he organised them that way (modes, ...), but
it's not important.
I don't know all the guitar players you named but for the ones I know,
yes, they do play pentatonic pentatonic patterns, but, at least to my
ears, they are very distant from the proficiency of many many less
famous sax players. They seem to be playing more rock/blues oriented
pentatonic, not the stuff that Potter is doing for example.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8855062144328557863
Actually I just heard some mclaughlin, and he plays many smart non
blues/rock pentatonic patterns ...
Don't worry about being rude. You are not. It's ok to disagree on
ideas/opinion and I don't give many people the luxury of being able to
offend me.
I'll check out the stuff you recommended.
Cheers
uiop99
I've been working through Bergonzi's pentatonics book for the past
couple of weeks. It's a lot of work, but the assignments do become
easier after practicing them for a while.
One thing that I think helps mastering the patterns (Bergonzi calls them
'formulas') is using only fingerings with two fingers per string. That
way the sequence of steps and skips ends up translating into a sequence
of 'top' fingers and 'down' fingers. Also playing the patterns is really
intuitive after they are memorized - so much that one has to be careful,
after practicing this they creep into my solos all the time, it's
becoming a serious problem.
Another thing I noticed after spending some time with this is that
everyone is playing the same patterns. I put on a CD from the '60s
onward or go to a session and catch other people doing this stuff
constantly.
I'm at the point in the book where Bergonzi introduces the minor 6
pentatonic, and now I have to go back and repeat all the work using this
other scale. It's crazy.
Another great thing about the Bergonzi books is that they come with the
best playalongs that I ever used.
Anyway, thank you Uil for sharing your findings. I'm not convinced into
tuning my guitar in 4ths, but I can see how it may be worth it for other
people.
NTC
Joey Goldstein
Can you give me some time points in this video where you think that CP
is using these types of pentatonic patterns?
What I hear is a guy is who has studied all sort of things, including
pentatonics, and who uses them seamlessly without ever resorting to any
real obvious pattern playing.
But I haven't listened to the whole thing yet.
> Actually I just heard some mclaughlin, and he plays many smart non
> blues/rock pentatonic patterns ...
>
> Don't worry about being rude. You are not. It's ok to disagree on
> ideas/opinion and I don't give many people the luxury of being able to
> offend me.
>
> I'll check out the stuff you recommended.
>
> Cheers
rpjazzguitar
Joey Goldstein
> What about 2:40, right before the Dearly Beloved quote?
If you mean the line he plays right at 2:44 on the g chord it's:
G A B E, A B C E, G D F# A, G G E|Dearly beloved etc.
That's neither a pentatonic line or one of the JB patterns.
rpjazzguitar
Thanks for transcribing it. I was just reacting to what sounded like
patterns to me. I couldn't hear and didn't check if they were
perfectly pentatonic.
Some of it is pattern based, up up upup is one thing I heard repeated,
although he isn't doing the same thing in every sequence.
And, not that anybody asked or cares, but I really don't care for that
type of improvisation. My 11 year old just heard me listening to it
and said, "that sounds like crap".
Joey Goldstein
> On Jul 14, 6:52 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> rpjazzguitar wrote:
>>> What about 2:40, right before the Dearly Beloved quote?
>> If you mean the line he plays right at 2:44 on the g chord it's:
>> G A B E, A B C E, G D F# A, G G E|Dearly beloved etc.
>> That's neither a pentatonic line or one of the JB patterns.
>>
>> --
>> Joey Goldstein
>> <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
>> <http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
>> joegold AT primus DOT ca
>
> Thanks for transcribing it. I was just reacting to what sounded like
> patterns to me. I couldn't hear and didn't check if they were
> perfectly pentatonic.
>
> Some of it is pattern based, up up upup is one thing I heard repeated,
> although he isn't doing the same thing in every sequence.
It does contain patterns of some sorts. Mostly rhythmic patterns.
But they're not the types of patterns described in Bergonzi's books.
Most good players don't play patterns like that in their solos.
They've probably practised many of those patterns.
But they don't do that so they can use them in their solos.
They practise that stuff to develop their ears, their chops and their
minds so that when they improvise they can play what they hear.
> And, not that anybody asked or cares, but I really don't care for that
> type of improvisation. My 11 year old just heard me listening to it
> and said, "that sounds like crap".
And of course he would know.
rpjazzguitar
> > > And, not that anybody asked or cares, but I really don't care for that
> > type of improvisation. My 11 year old just heard me listening to it
> > and said, "that sounds like crap".
>
> And of course he would know.
>
IMO, he got that one right.
Uil Loi
> It does contain patterns of some sorts. Mostly rhythmic patterns.
> But they're not the types of patterns described in Bergonzi's books.
Don't have time now to check the whole video, but if I remember
correctly he often uses pentatonic cells and moves them around, doing
all kind of displacements, octave jumps, applying different rhytmic
patterns on top, etc etc.
I don't think there's much of the obvious, 1 2 3 5 | 2 3 5 6 | 3 5 6 1
| ... he's playing music, not an exercise. Sounds very similar to what
Bergonzi does in his own music.
Still, I think that to get those cells under your fingers you need to
practice them extensively. they don't just happen.
Maybe Brecker on the live solo version of Naima makes a more "obvious"
use of the device, I should double check (but it doesn't matter much,
since playing out the exercises is not the point).
> Most good players don't play patterns like that in their solos.
> They've probably practised many of those patterns.
> But they don't do that so they can use them in their solos.
> They practise that stuff to develop their ears, their chops and their
> minds so that when they improvise they can play what they hear.
yes. And also to get those fragments under their fingers (if that's
what you mean with chops)
> > And, not that anybody asked or cares, but I really don't care for that
> > type of improvisation. My 11 year old just heard me listening to it
> > and said, "that sounds like crap".
>
> And of course he would know.
>
uh, for me that solo is simply amazing. I cannot imagine many people
being able to keep such a flow going for 10 minutes just playing
"single lines", always coming up with new variations with such an
ease, beauty, sense of melody, masterful control of tension/release,
rhythmic inventiveness, ...
sorry you don't like it.
Uil Loi
> I've been working through Bergonzi's pentatonics book for the past
> couple of weeks. It's a lot of work, but the assignments do become
> easier after practicing them for a while.
> One thing that I think helps mastering the patterns (Bergonzi calls them
> 'formulas') is using only fingerings with two fingers per string. That
> way the sequence of steps and skips ends up translating into a sequence
> of 'top' fingers and 'down' fingers. Also playing the patterns is really
> intuitive after they are memorized - so much that one has to be careful,
> after practicing this they creep into my solos all the time, it's
> becoming a serious problem.
> Another thing I noticed after spending some time with this is that
> everyone is playing the same patterns. I put on a CD from the '60s
> onward or go to a session and catch other people doing this stuff
> constantly.
> I'm at the point in the book where Bergonzi introduces the minor 6
> pentatonic, and now I have to go back and repeat all the work using this
> other scale. It's crazy.
> Another great thing about the Bergonzi books is that they come with the
> best playalongs that I ever used.
> Anyway, thank you Uil for sharing your findings. I'm not convinced into
> tuning my guitar in 4ths, but I can see how it may be worth it for other
> people.
practing those exercices is a lot easier with P4s. you have three
times less "shapes" to learn, and you create a stronger link between
the sounds you play and what your fingers do (which is most of point
of these exercises).
I've been practicing the stuff on and off for some years, and the only
way to get some decent speed is to use more than two fingers (if
that's what you meant with "top" and "down" fingers). I think Shawn
Lane did the same
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmQxx8Lmhg
the reason is that in many of patterns you have lots of fourths, which
would force you to "roll" your finger.
The tricky part is that every combination of pattern and pentatonic
type has it's own unique set of difficulties, not so much in the "what
string / fret to use for that note" (that's completely consistent with
P4s) but more in the "what finger should I use for this". It's a bit
like playing piano (or classical guitar) where the finger you choose
depends on the next note you will be playing ...
rpjazzguitar
track.
Joey Goldstein
> On Jul 15, 7:15 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> It does contain patterns of some sorts. Mostly rhythmic patterns.
>> But they're not the types of patterns described in Bergonzi's books.
>
> Don't have time now to check the whole video, but if I remember
> correctly he often uses pentatonic cells and moves them around, doing
> all kind of displacements, octave jumps, applying different rhytmic
> patterns on top, etc etc.
I think that until you actually lift some of his stuff you're not going
to know what he's *really doing* and you won't be in a position to
answer questions like: What must he have practised to be able to
improvise that?
> I don't think there's much of the obvious, 1 2 3 5 | 2 3 5 6 | 3 5 6 1
> | ... he's playing music, not an exercise. Sounds very similar to what
> Bergonzi does in his own music.
He plays lots of fairly obvious stuff.
He just makes it sound musical.
The line I lifted is a perfect example.
He plays lots of less obvious stuff too.
You can tell that he practises his ass off.
> Still, I think that to get those cells under your fingers you need to
> practice them extensively. they don't just happen.
>
> Maybe Brecker on the live solo version of Naima makes a more "obvious"
> use of the device, I should double check (but it doesn't matter much,
> since playing out the exercises is not the point).
>
>> Most good players don't play patterns like that in their solos.
>> They've probably practised many of those patterns.
>> But they don't do that so they can use them in their solos.
>> They practise that stuff to develop their ears, their chops and their
>> minds so that when they improvise they can play what they hear.
>
> yes. And also to get those fragments under their fingers (if that's
> what you mean with chops)
Yes, that's what we jazz musicians generally mean by the word "chops".
Technique.
>>> And, not that anybody asked or cares, but I really don't care for that
>>> type of improvisation. My 11 year old just heard me listening to it
>>> and said, "that sounds like crap".
>> And of course he would know.
>>
>
> uh, for me that solo is simply amazing. I cannot imagine many people
> being able to keep such a flow going for 10 minutes just playing
> "single lines", always coming up with new variations with such an
> ease, beauty, sense of melody, masterful control of tension/release,
> rhythmic inventiveness, ...
>
> sorry you don't like it.
>
Please be more careful with the way your news reading software handles
quotes.
You're attributing things to me that *I* did not say.
Joey Goldstein
Every line that you will ever play on guitar, in any tuning, has its own
set of fingering difficulties if you want your phrasing to flow.
Joey Goldstein
> I was only talking about a short section. I like almost all of the
> track.
Oiy.
Uil Loi
> I think that until you actually lift some of his stuff you're not going
> to know what he's *really doing* and you won't be in a position to
> answer questions like: What must he have practised to be able to
> improvise that?
Actually, even if you transcribe the stuff you will not be in a
position to say what he practiced. For that you will need to ask him.
There's a strong correlation between what you practice and what you
play when you want to create music, but it's not always obvious. (and
btw there's a full transcription of that solo somewhere on the web).
with a bit of googling:
ARTURO MORA: What do you look for when you start a solo, do you think
in its structure, the harmony, the scales, do you just let yourself
go?
CHRIS POTTER: It’s always difficult to describe, I think partially
because when you’re thinking in music you can describe it in words
later, but it happens so fast, it’s an immediate thing, so you’re
thinking in musical terms, you’re not thinking in language terms. The
best solos always have that feeling that the music is playing itself,
and I’m just there as something that is going thru, a lot of musicians
described this process, and it’s difficult to know how to get to that
point everytime, you know. You have to be very, very comfortable, and
you have to forget about everything, and not have a plan. You practice
all these things, you think about these concepts very, very deeply,
how to play the instrument, how you develop a motive, how to
understand harmony, you know, all this kind of technical things, you
have to master them to be able to play, but then, when you’re actually
playing, you can’t think about any of these things to have to let it
all go and let it be, what it is.
Graham
interesting stuff. However I think I'll leave it for a few years
yet. I have recently been listening to a lot of Chet Baker solos and
it made me realise just how much lyricism, melodic, harmonic and
rhythmic beauty there is to be mined from Chet's lines in the bebop
idiom. I want to master some of that stuff first! Just the way he
leaves spaces and then the time feel he puts on one note, dropped into
that space. Then the amazingly long lines he can weave in a very
small compass like one octave. I've started transcribing some of this
stuff and I've already noticed it influencing my playing a little bit.
So Bergonzi will have to wait I'm afraid!
But that's what I love about playing jazz. There is always more to
explore - you can't exhaust it.
Graham
Joey Goldstein
> On Jul 15, 9:39 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> I think that until you actually lift some of his stuff you're not going
>> to know what he's *really doing* and you won't be in a position to
>> answer questions like: What must he have practised to be able to
>> improvise that?
>
> Actually, even if you transcribe the stuff you will not be in a
> position to say what he practiced.
I didn't say you'd be in a position to know what he practised.
What I said is that you'd be in a better position to ask yourself what
he had practised.
There's a difference.
Putting aside for a moment what we think that CP probably practised,
right now, you seem to be just guessing about what he's playing and the
techniques he's using.
I'm basing this on your comments, but I could be wrong. I.e. I don't get
the feeling that you've ever actually lifted any of his stuff.
Eg. You cited this Youtube clip as being exemplary of him using
Bergonzi-esque pentatonics, but I don't hear any Bergonzi-esque
pentatonics in that solo to any large degree.
This leads me to believe that you might be practising the Bergonzi
material with naive assumptions about what it will and will not
accomplish for you.
I'm not suggesting that it will be bad for you or anyone else to be
practising Bergonzi's materials. Far from it.
All I'm trying to suggest is that as you gain more experience playing
this music you'll better be able to put these types of exercises into a
more useful perspective.
> For that you will need to ask him.
Right.
But every musician has to find their own path.
We all don't practise the exact same things.
We all practise different things.
And the things you choose to practise are going to be the things that
make you sound like you.
It's only by designing and practising your own exercises based on the
way that you think about your music as well as the way you think about
other people's music that any of us makes any real progress. IMO
I've found that for me, over the years, the most telling things I've
been able to figure out about this music have always come out of me
finding some actual music that I am in awe of and asking *myself*
questions like "What must he have worked on in order to be able to pull
that off?", and then trying to find answers for that question for myself.
> There's a strong correlation between what you practice and what you
> play when you want to create music, but it's not always obvious. (and
> btw there's a full transcription of that solo somewhere on the web).
>
> with a bit of googling:
>
> ARTURO MORA: What do you look for when you start a solo, do you think
> in its structure, the harmony, the scales, do you just let yourself
> go?
>
> CHRIS POTTER: It’s always difficult to describe, I think partially
> because when you’re thinking in music you can describe it in words
> later, but it happens so fast, it’s an immediate thing, so you’re
> thinking in musical terms, you’re not thinking in language terms. The
> best solos always have that feeling that the music is playing itself,
> and I’m just there as something that is going thru, a lot of musicians
> described this process, and it’s difficult to know how to get to that
> point everytime, you know. You have to be very, very comfortable, and
> you have to forget about everything, and not have a plan. You practice
> all these things, you think about these concepts very, very deeply,
> how to play the instrument, how you develop a motive, how to
> understand harmony, you know, all this kind of technical things, you
> have to master them to be able to play, but then, when you’re actually
> playing, you can’t think about any of these things to have to let it
> all go and let it be, what it is.
>
>
>
Uil Loi
Thanks for you comments Joey. I'm not very interested in splitting the
epistemological hair between knowing something and thinking that you
know something, or if I really said that video had bergonzi-esque
patterns (I think I said that the pentatonic stuff in that tune is not
rock/blues oriented ... there's actually not much pentatonic there, I
was remembering wrong ... but what a great solo!!) but you raise some
interesting points.
My claims, for what they're worth (zero), are:
1) arbitrary subjective claim: I like the sounds of many Brecker,
Potter and Bergonzi solos
2) practical claim: I think that practicing the Bergonzi patters will
bring me closer to those sound.
I believe (2) because
2a) I've been practicing them for some time, and from what I hear when
I improvise I'm moving closer to my goal. Of course I could just be
deceiving myself.
2b) I would think Bergonzi does practices what he preaches (but he
doesn't just play what he practices), and I think I remember some
inteview with Brecker where said clearly that he didn't reason in term
of "scales" anymore but more in term of small "cells", and that "giant
steps" was a huge influence on him. Potter I don't know actually. He
sounds like he's mastered every single jazz "dialect" under the
sun ...
I think you're under the impression I'm making some miracolous claims
"practice this and you'll sound like Potter!". No way. He's a genius
(IMHO), and this is hard work, and a life long (often frustrating)
quest. I think I'm moving in the right direction, and I just wanted to
share. I think we are in substantial agreement ...
And now I go back to practice.
ciao
drthoma...@gmail.com
> rpjazzguitar wrote:
> > I was only talking about a short section. I like almost all of the
> > track.
>
> Oiy.
It's a phenomenal performance. Fifty years from now it'll be in the
jazz history books and people will be writing dissertations about it.
I'll bet at least ten different guys have already transcribed the
whole thing.
Joey Goldstein
Pleas go back and re-read my comments because I said nothing akin to that.
All I'm trying to do is to get you to think and express yourself more
clearly and perhaps to rethink some of your suppositions.
That kind of stuff is always good to do IMO, especially if you're
presenting your comments in the form of a lesson by which you intend to
tutor other people.
Uil Loi
> Pleas go back and re-read my comments because I said nothing akin to that.
So I honestly don't know what you mean with
"I didn't say you'd be in a position to know what he practised. What I
said is that you'd be in a better position to ask yourself what he had
practised. There's a difference."
> All I'm trying to do is to get you to think and express yourself more
> clearly and perhaps to rethink some of your suppositions.
> That kind of stuff is always good to do IMO, especially if you're
> presenting your comments in the form of a lesson by which you intend to
> tutor other people.
Yes, and I thank you for that. I actually the only person I feel I
could be tutoring is my past self.
Uil Loi
> Yes, and I thank you for that. I actually the only person I feel I
> could be tutoring is my past self.
crap, what a broken sentence.
Joey Goldstein
> On Jul 15, 10:20 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> Pleas go back and re-read my comments because I said nothing akin to that.
>
> So I honestly don't know what you mean with
>
> "I didn't say you'd be in a position to know what he practised. What I
> said is that you'd be in a better position to ask yourself what he had
> practised. There's a difference."
Well the text I posted after that text within the post you are quoting
explains it. Re-read the entire thing?
>> All I'm trying to do is to get you to think and express yourself more
>> clearly and perhaps to rethink some of your suppositions.
>> That kind of stuff is always good to do IMO, especially if you're
>> presenting your comments in the form of a lesson by which you intend to
>> tutor other people.
>
> Yes, and I thank you for that. I actually the only person I feel I
> could be tutoring is my past self.
Hmm.
Most of the posts you've offered here with links to pages at your web
site appear, to me at least, to be in the form of a lesson.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting your intent.
tom walls
wrote:
Agreed. I didn't even know there was such a thing as Google Video.
Uil Loi
> Well the text I posted after that text within the post you are quoting
> explains it. Re-read the entire thing?
hmm, the only thing I can extract is, "we're guessing anyways, but at
least if you do the work of transcribing the stuff you make an
educated guess instead of a naive one". Is that what you mean? I would
definitely agree with that. i probably just posted the wrong tune.
I'll dig something out of his albums ...
I've glanced over the transcription of that solo some time ago, and
transcribed some Brecker's solos and some Bergonzi's heads.
> Hmm.
> Most of the posts you've offered here with links to pages at your web
> site appear, to me at least, to be in the form of a lesson.
> Maybe I'm misinterpreting your intent.
I am also misintepreting my own intent. I should probably just shut up
and practice, but organizing what I've learned so far, as if I was
tutoring my old self, seems to give some structure to thoughts that
otherwise just stay in my head.
And then I have these discussion with you :-)
Honestly, the amazing thing is that you seem to care about what a mr
nobody on the other side of the ocean does with his music!
Joey Goldstein
> On Jul 15, 11:56 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> Well the text I posted after that text within the post you are quoting
>> explains it. Re-read the entire thing?
>
> hmm, the only thing I can extract is, "we're guessing anyways, but at
> least if you do the work of transcribing the stuff you make an
> educated guess instead of a naive one". Is that what you mean?
Essentially.
> I would
> definitely agree with that. i probably just posted the wrong tune.
> I'll dig something out of his albums ...
>
> I've glanced over the transcription of that solo some time ago, and
> transcribed some Brecker's solos and some Bergonzi's heads.
>
>> Hmm.
>> Most of the posts you've offered here with links to pages at your web
>> site appear, to me at least, to be in the form of a lesson.
>> Maybe I'm misinterpreting your intent.
>
> I am also misintepreting my own intent. I should probably just shut up
> and practice, but organizing what I've learned so far, as if I was
> tutoring my old self, seems to give some structure to thoughts that
> otherwise just stay in my head.
>
> And then I have these discussion with you :-)
>
> Honestly, the amazing thing is that you seem to care about what a mr
> nobody on the other side of the ocean does with his music!
>
Seeing your own ideas refracted in someone else's understanding and/or
experience can often be a good thing.
sheetsofsound
> Hello, I've written down a very short intro to the "Bergonzi
> Patterns" (as explained in his "Melodic Structures" book).
>
> I derived all the possible patterns (given some reasonable
> constraints), organized them by "modes", and applied them to some
> common pentatonics.
>
> http://bit.ly/ccxYWe
>
> Let me know if you find it useful.
>
> This stuff is very challenging on the guitar (it's actually what
> pushed me towards the P4s tuning), while for some sax players (e.g.
> Brecker and Potter) it's just second nature.
>
> I can hear some of these things in the modern players (Rosenwinkel,
> Rogers, Kreisberg), but this "digital patterns" idiom seems a bit
> foreign on the guitar.
just wanted to say I appreciate this thread. One of the few good ones
I've seen in a long time here.
Uil Loi
yes, I think Joey is always very knowledgeable and honest, and it's a
pleasure both to agree and disagree with him.
I think there's a huge gray area between what we practice and what we
play. There's obviously some strong correlation, but it's not that
clear.
So, pointing out to some exercices you found useful, you always expose
yourself to the attack "that's mechanical crap, real musicians don't
do that, ...", which is at the same time true and a "straw man" kind
of fallacy.
I watched yesterday the 4 part lecture with Brecker you find on
youtube, and he sounded very honest in saying that he would practice
stuff but he couldn't not apply immediately to what he would play
during gigs. He would have to trust his "subconcious" (not sure that's
the word he used), and that things would usually start coming out two
months after he practiced them, and how that always surprised him.
(potter said something similar, ...)
So, from my little experience, I see that these Bergonzi patterns
really help me to find new ways around the pentatonic sounds, and that
eventually they come out in what I play when I'm not trying to think
about what I'm playing ...
I takes some discipline (and I think that P4 made that work easier),
and of course they're not the holy grail of jazz. I still hear these
pentatonic cells in lots of moder solos. I will spend more time
transcribing relevant solos.
what did you like about the thread?
Tim McNamara
<30fc903f-b9e0-4051...@e5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Uil Loi <synthe...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> I watched yesterday the 4 part lecture with Brecker you find on
> youtube, and he sounded very honest in saying that he would practice
> stuff but he couldn't not apply immediately to what he would play
> during gigs. He would have to trust his "subconcious" (not sure
> that's the word he used), and that things would usually start coming
> out two months after he practiced them, and how that always surprised
> him. (potter said something similar, ...)
This is something I have read in interviews with many jazz musicians and
rock musicians, too. It makes sense that it takes some time for new
acoustic-motor learning to be integrated and become useful.
> So, from my little experience, I see that these Bergonzi patterns
> really help me to find new ways around the pentatonic sounds, and
> that eventually they come out in what I play when I'm not trying to
> think about what I'm playing ...
>
> I takes some discipline (and I think that P4 made that work easier),
> and of course they're not the holy grail of jazz.
The holy grail of jazz was expressed by Charlie Parker: learn your
chords, learn your scales, and then forget that stuff and just play.
Ultimately we learn to just use the chromatic scale with good taste.
--
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.
Bryce
> In article
> <30fc903f-b9e0-4051-ac82-2e5af7acc...@e5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Right on. Jazz is music and not just the percussive aspect of music.
Jazz includes melody and harmony. Tha'ts why rock groups are a dime a
dozen: they play mostly percussion, which doesn't require much. That's
why there is this grasping to modes and pentatonics. It's basically
rock and driven by a lack of motivation IMO. Guitar and bass guitar
are basically percussive instruments. In the many swing bands the
guitarist played in the back of the group with the drummer; so did the
string bass. We, jazz guitarists, are focused on melody and harmony
and not just "the beat." Learn all the elements of music then forget
it all and go into auto mode and use your ear: Charlie Parker set the
standard. Give me Bird or I quit.
Right on Tim !!
Tim McNamara
<8a7e075f-985b-4276...@p11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Bryce <bsuth...@cox.net> wrote:
> Right on. Jazz is music and not just the percussive aspect of music.
> Jazz includes melody and harmony. Tha'ts why rock groups are a dime a
> dozen: they play mostly percussion, which doesn't require much.
Well, percussion is a rich form of music in its own right and has an
extensive theoretical framework. I knew there was some of this but I
was not remotely aware of the degree to which this goes until just the
past week- and I still don't come close to grasping the extent of this
(see my post about my summer vacation for more elaboration of this).
> That's why there is this grasping to modes and pentatonics. It's
> basically rock and driven by a lack of motivation IMO. Guitar and
> bass guitar are basically percussive instruments. In the many swing
> bands the guitarist played in the back of the group with the drummer;
> so did the string bass. We, jazz guitarists, are focused on melody
> and harmony and not just "the beat." Learn all the elements of music
> then forget it all and go into auto mode and use your ear: Charlie
> Parker set the standard.
It takes a long time to get there (well, at least for slow learners like
me).
> Give me Bird or I quit.
LOL!
> Right on Tim !!
Thanks.