G7flat 5 Experiment.
Omcha
it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following sitiuation.
So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing "Desifinado" in
the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha Gonna Do?
Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
Thanks,
Jess
Victor Magnani
I always thought it more of a G7#11 (I'm sure the bass player is gonna go G-D,
playing a bossa 'n all). So I'd go for Lydian-dominant scale (G-A-B-C#-D-E-F).
Victor
Joey Goldstein
Omcha wrote:
>
> Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group, I thought
> it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following sitiuation.
> So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing "Desifinado" in
> the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha Gonna Do?
> Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
> Thanks,
> Jess
Lydb7 or Whole Tone scales most of the time.
G half whole and even G mixolydian can be made to work too as can
several other things in the realm of superimposition.
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
Mark Kleinhaut
om...@aol.com (Omcha) wrote:
> Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group, I
thought
> it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following
sitiuation.
> So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing
"Desifinado" in
> the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha
Gonna Do?
> Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
> Thanks,
> Jess
>
Same shit as I'd play in the third bar of "A-Train", but bossa style.
--
Mark Kleinhaut
Info and soundclips available at
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Clay Moore
>Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group, I thought
>it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following sitiuation.
>So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing "Desifinado" in
>the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha Gonna Do?
>Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
>Thanks,
>Jess
Gee, I guess since my name came up I have to answer, eh? <g>
I have a few standard approaches that I take to this type of situation. First
of all, I don't assume it's mandatory to play a G7b5 when blowing on a tune
like this, even though it probably will come up in my lines quite a bit. Once
I get past the head it's simply a G7, and can take on just about any flavor.
But, assuming that I want to play a G7b5 type line here are a few things I'll
do:
1. D melodic minor, aka G lydian b7 or G mixolydian #4
2. lines based G and A major triads
3. an A major triad with a resolving sus 4. Say I start on the note D, and
play D, C#, A, E
4. Some pet chromatic lines based on whole step intervals
The D melodic minor usually ends up being fairly standard bebop-type lines,
emphasizing the b5, #4, or #11 (whatever you choose to call it). Obviously as
with any scale there are a wealth of options to explore - 3rds, 4ths, triads,
and so on.
#2 is pretty self explanatory, you simply play G B D, then A C# E, then
invert, B D G, C# E A. Or you can play one triad up and the next down, as in G
B D, A E C#. Once again, lots of options. It doesn't have to be this
predictable, just using both triads.
#3 is pretty cool. You can actually play almost blues-type lines if you like
over an A chord, but just be sure and resolve from the 4th (of the A chord) to
the 3rd.
#4 is some lines I created from studying books like Patterns for Jazz and from
Pat Martino's seminar. One that I play a fair amount is based on m6ths
descending in whole steps. If you play B and then G above it it's a m6th, but
also the 3rd and root of a G7. Then you move the 6th down in whole steps, but
connecting with chromatic tones. A bit tricky to explain this way but:
B G B Bb A F A Ab G Eb G Gb F Db F E Eb B Eb D Db A Db C B
The 1st and 2nd Bs are the same pitch, then down two half steps, up a m6, then
continue. Oh the limits of text!
Hope this answers your question.
Clay Moore --
jazz guitarist
cl...@claymoore.com
http://www.claymoore.com/
To find out where I'm performing each week, sign up on my mailing list. Send a blank e-mail to cmgigs-s...@topica.com
jshoot
here are my 2 cents
1) trace the chord melodically
2) think 'Db7'
3) think 'Ab dim' or 'Abm'
4) think 'I hope I can recall the chords to the last two sections'
joel
Colin Cotter
> Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group, I thought
> it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following sitiuation.
> So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing "Desifinado" in
> the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha Gonna Do?
> Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
> Thanks,
> Jess
Use G A B C# D E F G or G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G or G A B C# D# F G.
C
Colin Cotter
oh yeah, or G Ab Bb B C# D E F G.
Mark Kleinhaut
> > Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group,
I
> thought
> > it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following
> sitiuation.
> > So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing
> "Desifinado" in
> > the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha
> Gonna Do?
> > Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
> > Thanks,
> > Jess
> >
>
>
> --
> Mark Kleinhaut
> Info and soundclips available at
> www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
I got to wondering why this question compelled me to give a smart-ass
answer rather then something of at least theoretical substance. Well,
I realize upon reflection that it's because I believe there is
something fundamentally wrong with the paint by numbers approach of
"see chord X means play scale Y". Learning the formulas certainly can
be valuable, just as learning the vocabulary, grammar and such can be
important (but NOT necessary) when learning any language. But when the
question is about when you are supposedly playing this tune and you see
a G7b5 in the third measure and then, "what do you do", well it seems
to me that this question could have hundreds of answers in terms of
what we would "really" do. But of all the answers, I doubt anyone is
really thinking aha! Here's where I can wip out my Lydian Augmented
scales. Well, maybe some folks are thinking that way, but I'd be
surprised if the result sounds musical.
Stated another way, suppose you are writing a note to your friend who
was going to meet you at your house, but you had to run an errand, so
your writing this note and suddenly (in the third measure) you see the
word "however", what do you do next? OK, I know this analogy sounds
ludicrous, but the point I'm trying to make is that if you are thinking
Lydian "this" or whole-tone "that" while you are playing then are
putting form over substance and the opportunity to create musical
content is overshadowed by the mechanics of the process.
Kevin Van Sant
<20000817135932...@ng-cu1.aol.com> :
>Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group, I thought
>it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following sitiuation.
>So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing "Desifinado" in
>the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha Gonna Do?
>Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
>Thanks,
>Jess
Since there was a recent thread making the case for a clear
distinction between a 7b5 and a 7#11 chord, I'm in agreement with
anyone who would view the G chord in this bar as the latter. That's
because I see nothing wrong with playing D natural (the 5th, which as
was established in the earlier thread, doesn't belong in a b5 chord).
For that matter I also might include the Bb in my lines. Though both
the Bb and the D natural would probably be *transit* notes and not
*destination* notes in my lines since they don't help define the sound
of the intended chord.
Speaking more generally about my approach, I think I may do two things
in a situation like this (or just about any other). First I become
aware of what the chord(s) is/are, in this case the G7#11. Like Clay
talked about, I also like to strip that down and see it as simply G7,
but then color it accordingly. The simple way of describing how I
choose to color the chord is to say that I play what sounds musical
to me, but that is probably meaningless advice without further
explanation. Rather than view a given chord as an opportunity to play
one or another particular scale (eg G7#11 = G lyd b7), to determine
what is musical (aka sounds good) I look at both what the melody is
doing there and what is going on in the bars preceding and following
the target bar. If I want to really focus on the identity of that
chord (or reference the melody) then I'll land on the Db, but I might
choose to develop my lines around the sound of bars 1 & 2 (FMaj7) and
bar 5 (Gm) and not particularly highlight the qualities of the G7#11.
I'm just not one to view chords as equating with linear scales when
soling, I prefer to combine all those options into one big pallet that
I then draw from. So when someone says "Use G A B C# D E F G or G Ab
Bb Cb Db Eb F G or G A B C# D# F G" , to me I would see that as "use G
Ab A Bb B C# D Eb E F". I think really it amounts to the same thing
but its just a different way of thinking about it or internalizing it.
The one thing that is really clear to me now is that I shouldn't try
to think, let alone write, about this stuff so early in the morning
after a late night out of town gig.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
www.mindspring.com/~jazure/music.html - to buy my CDs and listen to J'Azure
www.onestopjazz.com - for a comprehensive index of internet jazz resources
www.onestopjazz.com/kvansant - for jazz guitar samples and info
Kevin Van Sant
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<8njdqn$ovb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> :
>I got to wondering why this question compelled me to give a smart-ass
>answer rather then something of at least theoretical substance. Well,
>I realize upon reflection that it's because I believe there is
>something fundamentally wrong with the paint by numbers approach of
>"see chord X means play scale Y". Learning the formulas certainly can
>be valuable, just as learning the vocabulary, grammar and such can be
>important (but NOT necessary) when learning any language. But when the
>question is about when you are supposedly playing this tune and you see
>a G7b5 in the third measure and then, "what do you do", well it seems
>to me that this question could have hundreds of answers in terms of
>what we would "really" do. But of all the answers, I doubt anyone is
>really thinking aha! Here's where I can wip out my Lydian Augmented
>scales. Well, maybe some folks are thinking that way, but I'd be
>surprised if the result sounds musical.
>
I hear you Mark, a simple yet apt analogy is learning a language.
Most people who learn say French in a classroom or from books have
terrible pronunciation. Those people who immerse themselves in the
land(s) of French speakers can become quite fluent with convincing
pronunciation in a matter of months. That's why to me there is no
substitute for the number one jazz music learning tool, listening to
jazz music.
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> Omcha wrote:
> >
> > Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group, I thought
> > it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following sitiuation.
> > So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing "Desifinado" in
> > the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha Gonna Do?
> > Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
> > Thanks,
> > Jess
>
> Lydb7 or Whole Tone scales most of the time.
>
> G half whole and even G mixolydian can be made to work too as can
> several other things in the realm of superimposition.
One nice sounding superimposition over this chord is A7sus4. Try
creating lines that outline A7sus4 while the G7 chord is sounding. As
Clay has pointed out you might even resolve the sus! E7sus4 is nice too.
Mark Kleinhaut
Kevin Van Sant <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote:
(snip)
That's why to me there is no
> substitute for the number one jazz music learning tool, listening to
> jazz music.
Yup, but even more preferable is listening to jazz music being played
by the guy standing next to you on stage. The greatest learning is
doing.
Gene Mills
>Thanks,
>Jess
<Anyone?? that's my cue>
All the posts are great - here's one other slant
You might consider a reharm approach to that set of chords and use lines
through the reharm
So for your ipanema - atrain
Fmaj7 / / / | / / / / | G7#11 / / / | / / / /
Becomes
Fmaj7 / Bb13 / | Am7 / D7 / | G7 / Am7 / | Bbdim7 / G(add9)/B / |
Gene
Bob Valentine
>>
>> Same shit as I'd play in the third bar of "A-Train", but bossa style.
>
>answer rather then something of at least theoretical substance. Well,
Mark, I thought this was a great answer. Other people will give the list
of four or five scales one could reasonably choose from (which you refer
to as the 'same shit'). You've gone to the heirarchical essence of the
issue, "its a song with a II7 in the third bar".
For a song with a II7 that should probably get a somewhat different
treatment I submit "You really got me" by the Kinks, later interpreted
magnificently by David Lee Roth with Eddie Van Halen providing the
guitar accompaniement.
Bob Valentine
Bob Valentine
Mark Kleinhaut
Robby
>
> Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group, I thought
> it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following sitiuation.
> So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing "Desifinado" in
> the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5. Whatcha Gonna Do?
> Clay? Jimmy? Tom? Kevin? Everyone??
> Thanks,
> Jess
on the Fmaj7, & G lyd b7 aka D melodic minor (GABC#DEF) on the G7b5 as
most consonant. The G7b5 could also easily 'take' G whole tone, G
half/whole diminished, or G altered (Ab melodic minor) GAbA#BDbD#F. They
are more dissonant than the G lyd b7 but sound fine to me for a funkier
harmony. So which Barry Harris scale goes here? Ok I gotta go hear Mike
Stern at the Iron Horse in about a half-hour. Robby
Keith Erskine
: Because there are so many "world class" players in this news group, I thought
: it would be interesing (and enlightening) to pose the following sitiuation.
: So - for the sake of this experiment - lets say you are playing "Desifinado" in
: the key of "F" and at the third measure, here comes a G7b5.
: Whatcha Gonna Do?
Call BossaBusters!! :-)
Actually (insert non-world class pre-disclaimer here), for fear of stating the
obvious - a key consideration in what to play over the G7b5, is not just
whatcha gonna do, but where ya gonna go? the chord that follows G7b5
is just as important for note choice as having come from Fmaj7, especially
towards the end of the 2 measures of G7b5 - ya gotta lead into the next chord
gracefully. I've recorded this as a demo for a duet, I'll go back and see what
i played.
Keith Erskine
I don't speak for HP.
Ann Harris
decide