Mickey Baker Vol. 1 -- did you ever make it through the last section?
drthoma...@gmail.com
all the chords, but I don't remember ever trying any of the single-
note licks in the back of the book (I was kind of allergic to reading
music back then).
Did I miss anything good?
thuss
You missed out on some good laughs. But when I went through it in the
'50's, it was about all we had for guitar...except some old Nick
Manoloff books. Oh. There was one book on improvisation for all
instrumetns that was only slightly less amusing the Mickey's. And a
pretty good book of phrases for sax.
Mickey's second volume appeared to have been written by someone else.
Bg
wrote:
helpful.
Bg
Carl
But, looking at the book today, I wouldn't agree that you "missed out on a
few laughs". Agreed the book was hard for a self-teaching student to
interpret but there are some reasonable licks and arpeggios in there. If,
for example, I had been able to understand then what the relationship of an
Em7 RUN was to a G chord (see Lesson 31, Pg. 40), I would have made better
sense of it all. I still like the RIFF RUNS and VAMP RIFFS in Lessons 38 and
39, for example. Perhaps you couldn't say Baker's book would take you to an
advanced level, but it certainly had some good material for a beginner jazz
student if the material had been explained better. Considering what else was
available then (nothing), it was a good first attempt.
hambone
book! Check this out http://www.thumbpicker.com/mickeybaker/
Carl
> There's an amazing web site that is devoted to the study of this
> book! Check this out http://www.thumbpicker.com/mickeybaker/
>
Hey thanks for posting that. I'm going to look into it just for the
nostalgic trip alone!
In my experience, his book is brought up in discussion many times in
different forums. It clearly had a huge impact on a large number of people.
Carl
Mickey had explained his own work the way this guy does, he would have had a
nearly perfect book!
Fuzztone, Ammo
from the first few pages. What a great collection of chords.
I was far too slow a reader, with no experience and hardly any idea
where the notes lay on the fingerboard.
I lent it out sometime in the past 30 years, no idea to whom. Still
have books 2 and 3, but not that interested in them any more.
Ammo
charles robinson
"tomb...@jhu.edu" <drthoma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8fea6906-6336-4b3d...@q23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
When I first started I couldn't read that well so I'd get sax players to
play through it for me. Not hearing much in it I didn't bother to memorize..
Later after I could read I played through it and ended up with the same
reaction.
Charlie
southtexasguitarist
wrote:
Hi Tom,
I was a poor reader as well when I started working with the book, but
I do recall working out some of the materials. The approach seemed to
be to learn some really simple arpeggio-type licks and chain them
together to make solos. He also talked about how an Em7 lick could be
a G6 lick, and an Em6 could be A9 - that kind of thing.
I think the issue with this is if you were a good reader it would have
been too simple, and like you and I most self-taught players were
probably too impatient to get the benefits. With a teacher it would be
useful, perhaps.
Gerry
Oh what the heck. I got myself a copy of the old thing and am going to
run it down just for grins...
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
Peter
time into that site. What a great resource and a curious project. That
is almost worth publishing as a supplement to the book. Great stuff,
thanks for the post!
Peter
Greger Hoel
Great resource indeed. Too bad he appears to be colourblind.
--
Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
Claus Rogge
> Oh what the heck. I got myself a copy of the old thing and am going to
> run it down just for grins...
Same here, just ordered it. The name "Mickey Baker" sure as hell sounds
familiar but I don´t remember where from at all.
--
Music at the iTunes Store:
http://tinyurl.com/57ots3
The rest of it:
http://tinyurl.com/73efjm
tom walls
> Gerry <somewh...@sunny.calif> wrote:
> > Oh what the heck. I got myself a copy of the old thing and am going to
> > run it down just for grins...
>
> Same here, just ordered it.
Not to rain on your parade, but I don't think you guys are going to
learn anything. It's mostly the chords that you learn in your first
years of playing that you wished somebody had taught you. He starts
you out on rhythm changes, but doesn't tell you it's rhythm changes
and its in the key of G and C, so it took me a while to figure it out.
Gerry
I'm sure you're right. I remember being confused by some stuff too,
back in '72.
But I like going through method books and one reason why is for
teaching materials for others.
Claus Rogge
> But I like going through method books and one reason why is for
> teaching materials for others.
exactly what I was going to say.
Carl
But I have to ask you about your "rhythm changes" comment. I think he
presents rhythm changes in the standard key of Bb (as a matter of fact, he
makes a statement to that effect), not G or C as you state. I just think he
has the changes wrong. Maybe I'm unclear as to exactly what you're referring
to, but I'm referring to Lesson 43, pg. 58.
tom walls
IIRC(that's a big if in my case) the very first chord exercises he
works with are in G, and he never mentions this, but if you check it
out you'll notice the exercises revolve around rhythm changes. After
he's worked with the chord positions with the root on the sixth string
for a while, he segues to chord forms with the root on the fifth
string in the key of C. His subs are really nice and very commonly
used.
Carl
the dead horse just for the sake of learning something for myself, if that's
ok with you.
To my understanding, the basic rhythm changes, as written in the original
key, are Bb-Gm7-Cm7-F7.
Transposed to the key of G, these changes would be G-Em7-Am7-D7, changes
seen often in do-wop tunes and in many early rock tunes such as the Everly
Brothers "Dream", as far as I can see. Basically said, I-vi-ii7-V7.
Now, I understand that a Gma6 is equivalent to Em7, and he makes that
substitution often in his early examples, but the only example I can see in
the early part of his chord study which specifically approaches rhythm
changes is the second example in Lesson 5 on p.10 where he indicates the
"Standard" changes as G-G#dim-Am-D7. I can't relate any of the other
examples to rhythm changes at all except for the same singular example in
the key of C at the top of p.18 in Lesson 13.
Perhaps this is due to my personal shortcomings. But since he doesn't make
the connection for us at any time, that would be a shortcoming of his
teaching style, imho.
His first written reference to "rhythm changes" comes in Lesson 43. Even
there, he fails to explain why they're called rhythm changes. The derivation
is actually important for students to understand, again imho. His failure to
explain that, as well as his failure to indicate the "Standard" changes
along with his choice of changes, is an important omission for the beginning
student and adds to the confusion.
But putting aside opinions about his teaching style, I'd need an explanation
of how his changes of Bbma6-Gb7-F11-Gb7 are related as subs for the standard
changes of Bb-Em7-Am7-D7. Maybe you could convince me that an F11 is some
sort of inversion of an Am9 or even better an Am6/9 (if there is such a
thing), but the last Gb7 would be a tritone sub for a C7 chord, not a D7 and
I can't relate to the first Gb7 as a sub for Em7 at all. In any case, I
can't make these changes sound right no matter how I try.
If you don't mind taking the time, I could use the guidance. Thanks.
Btw, what does "IIRC" mean in this context, is it "If I remembered
correctly"?
tom walls
Hi Carl,
"If I remember correctly", is right!
Okay, so I've just dug out my Mickey Baker, and taken a quick scan,
and you're right again! I see he provides subs for all variety of
cadences. I haven't look at it in a long time(I studied it during the
70s, and it's in several pieces) and, I tend to see most changes as
variations on either the blues or rhythm changes, so in my mind I've
conflated it to rhythm changes. My bad.
Anyhow, I didn't mean to run down the book, I'm sure I got more out of
it than any other. My sense is that both Gerry and Claus are already
familiar with this stuff.
I should mention that Mickey does provide an example of "rhythm" in
lesson 4 on page 5. It's the fourth stanza. We must have different
versions of the book, btw. For instance, my page 18 has lesson 18 on
it. I do see your example of rhythm changes in C in lesson 13 on page
13.
I'm not finding this "Bbma6-Gb7-F11-Gb7" thing. Where do you see that?
David Raleigh Arnold
Did you ever hear the Charlie Christian solos that the book (part 2) was largely based on? Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
David Raleigh Arnold
I got started on it with a teacher, Bill Harris, so I was into the 2nd
part before I began getting serious about classical. Now I know that I
could have done both. I didn't know how to do both then in a way that
each would help the other. Eventually I did plough through the rest of
the book, but I have yet to do it up right by recording the chords and
playing along. Now I'm more interested in writing a more general
approach based on "melody and arpeggio" (quoting Sidney Bechet).
I disagree with putting everything into "guitar friendly keys". Even some solo jazz turns out to be more friendly in flat keys, like "All the Things You Are", which is easiest in Ab, or "One Note Samba", easiest
in Dm. Not to mention playing with other instruments than guitar. For the all-around guitarist, jazz is a productive way of becoming more functional in flat keys. Jazz bands were marching bands at first, so
flat keys dominate. It's tradition. Nothing wrong with it, but it really doesn't matter what we guitar players think. And there is some important classical guitar repertoire in flat keys. Flat keys are not just to give beginning guitarists a hard time.
And I do my bit. Both of these have midi:
http://www.openguitar.com/pdf/flatcity.pdf
http://www.openguitar.com/pdf/bayblues.pdf
David Raleigh Arnold
> Gerry <some...@sunny.calif> wrote:
>
>> Oh what the heck. I got myself a copy of the old thing and am going to
>> run it down just for grins...
>
> Same here, just ordered it. The name "Mickey Baker" sure as hell sounds
> familiar but I don´t remember where from at all.
He started out as a 14-year-old pool shark. He saw jazz musicians in fur coats so he got a guitar and took stuff off Charlie Christian records.
"Mickey and Sylvia". "Love is Strange". He made enough money to get to France. Then, since he was black, everyone expected him to play blues, so he learned blues. Regards, daveA
David Raleigh Arnold
"Rhythm Changes" are the changes to "I Got Rhythm", jazzed up. The title
was not used to avoid paying royalties. Not unusual in jazz titles,
especially bop. Regards, daveA
Claus Rogge
> He started out as a 14-year-old pool shark. He saw jazz musicians in fur
> coats so he got a guitar and took stuff off Charlie Christian records.
> "Mickey and Sylvia". "Love is Strange". He made enough money to get to
> France. Then, since he was black, everyone expected him to play blues, so
> he learned blues. Regards, daveA
I�ve been thinking about this ever since. Still can�t come up with the
answer to where I know that name from.
I went to a guitar teacher more than 40 years ago and the chord diagrams
of this book look familiar. But who could tell after such a long time
...