Holland amps - 20 watt Lobo vs. 35 watt Jimi?
matt u
until then...
I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on either of these (especially if
you've played or heard both). I know I want the characteristics of a
small tube amp, but with enough volume to play in a club (without a PA).
It should be pretty clean at volume, but I don't want pristine or
hi-fi. Portability is also important for me. I love a Fender Deluxe,
but I feel like I could get lighter and louder (and pretty nice sound,
from what I hear) with one of these Hollands.
So, I'm interested to hear about:
Tone,
Weight, &
Volume.
Thanks,
m
Rick Ross
amp....
--
Rick Ross
(760) 803-1199
"Everything is chrome in the future.."
........Spongebob Squarepants........
"matt u" <lows...@newsfeeds.com> wrote in message
news:3EB9891D...@newsfeeds.com...
matt u
because what I've been able to read leads me to think Allen's a little
more geared toward blues/rock tones (overdriven) rather than clean
(relatively speaking) jazz tones. But I could probably still be
convinced otherwise. Can you compare it to something else (like a BF
Deluxe?) for reference?
Thanks,
m
Rick Ross
in my hands, any guitar would sound...........
oooooops..someone at the door:)
--
Rick Ross
(760) 803-1199
"Everything is chrome in the future.."
........Spongebob Squarepants........
"matt u" <thelow...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b9c884$hqlu7$1...@ID-138435.news.dfncis.de...
Richard
> Yes, I remember your suggestion. I'd leaned away from Allen just
> because what I've been able to read leads me to think Allen's a little
> more geared toward blues/rock tones (overdriven) rather than clean
> (relatively speaking) jazz tones. But I could probably still be
> convinced otherwise. Can you compare it to something else (like a BF
> Deluxe?) for reference?
It's true that the Allen amps seem most popular in blues & classic rock
circles. At, if you turn one up, you're going to get a sound that's
very similar to what a BF Fender sounds like turned up. At lower volume
levels you get a wonderful "fat" "chimey" clean sound out of either an
Allen or a BF Fender (or a Tone King, for that matter).
I've owned three or four BF Deluxe Reverbs, and a couple of BF Deluxe
(no reverb), and a relative boatload of other BF or "transition" Fender
amps (transition = BF internals, SF externals) including a nice Vibrolux
Reverb w/2x10s.
I now own an Accomplice, and I'm more than happy with it. I've got it
set with 2x6L6 for about 35 watts. I like a good basic clean sound that
I can put effects on top of if I'm using them. That's how I used the BF
Fenders, and that's how I use the Accomplice. Great clean, works well
with pedals. Life is good.
Good luck with the Holland should you go that way. I've heard mixed
stories about their build quality. That's something you don't have to
worry about with the Allen amps. David Allen's work is superb.
--
For email, put NOT SPAM in Subject or I won't see your msg.
<><
Jay Vyas
Matt -
I recently purchased a Holland Lobo. It is a pretty good sounding
amp, although it has some quirks. (I ended up sending it back to
Holland almost immediately after getting it for a going over, but it
still has some of those quirks.) I'm still working with it, but my
current impression is that it is not really a "jazz" amp.
First of all, it doesn't really sound like a Deluxe Reverb - it is a
more aggressive sounding amp. It also does not stay clean at volume;
from my experience, it is a raging blues amp, but not really a jazz
amp.
The reverb as it came to me was unbelievable strong and boingy at
anything above 2 on the knob; it seems to be now adjusted somewhat so
it's less strong. The volume is also pretty darn loud on 2. Overall
the pots don't seem to be that useful through their full range - all
the action happens early on in the sweep, and it's senstive to small
movements. The controls are still a bit of a mystery to me, and I
need to keep experimenting.
Mine also had some vibration problems and they fixed that with a
bracket on the chassis; apparently mine was one of the first ones
built, and subsequent ones have more mounts on the chassis or
something.
Holland suggested that I run the amp on about 5, then turn my guitar
volume down; I just came upstairs from playing, and the amp was plenty
loud for home use, jamming with someone, etc with the amp volume on 3
and the guitar volume around 3-4. If the amp volume is above two, and
the guitar volume is on 10, it is incredibly loud, and turning up the
volume knob increases the volume somewhat, but increases the gain. I
played an electric blues gig with this amp and a strat; with the amp
volume on two (and the amp not being mic'd), I was told I was too
loud! My guitar volume was on 10.
Holland has been extremely helpful with me, and even sent me back
different pre-amp tubes so I can experiment. Their customer service
is excellent. I'm going to try that (the tubes) and see what happens.
However, being primarily a jazz/blues player (as opposed to a
blues/jazz player), I think this amp is ultimately not going to give
me the clean headroom I'd like even for guitar duo gigs. It is a
very nice sounding amp (and at certain settings, really excellent
sounding), and it very sensitive/responsive to picking attack, so that
is cool. The reverb, however, isn't up to par with the best. (Maybe
I'm being nitpicky for an amp that is under a grand...)
I have another Holland, a Brentwood, whose tone is heavenly for jazz,
and with a reverb that is incredibly deep and transparent. I also
have a Fender Custom Shop Dual Professional which is my benchmark for
clean complex tone and for reverb. The Brentwood is a slightly more
delicate (i.e, less beefy sounding) amp than the DP, and the reverbs
are quite comparable. The Lobo doesn't really appear to be in the
same class as these two amps, tone wise. Both the Brentwood and DP
blew me away immediately, whereas the Lobo I'm still trying to tweak.
I think a strat through the Brentwood playing blues sounds killer, but
it's not the jazz tone I'm looking for.
The Jimi with 6L6 probably has better headroom and might be better
suited for jazz. I've played a Holland Jazz amp in a store, and
thought it was quite nice, but it didn't blow me away like my
Brentwood or Dual Professional. (the Brentwood has a pair of 6L6
while the DP runs a quartet of them.)
On the front of other amps, I've owned a few Top Hat combos - the Club
Deluxe and Club Royale. The Club Deluxe was a fantastic amp for jazz
and had reasonable clean headroom, but it lacked reverb. The Club
Royale I had was like a fire breathing little Marshall - unbelieveable
for blues/rock, but not very jazz sounding! Both were reasonable in
weight in a 1x12 combo format. I had a Matchless Lightning Reverb for
a while; it had a great tone and was *very* loud, but it was pretty
heavy in a 2x10 format.
Although it is not light, I've played a friend's Allen Old Flame that
sounds better than any vintage blackface Super Reverb I've played.
(His has upgraded speakers in it.) It is in a 2x10 format, and must
have gigantic transformers because it weighs a lot, but oh the sound.
If they all sound like that one, then that maker has found the magic
blackface circuit!
If I ultimately end up not keeping the Lobo, I'm going to investigate
Carr (though they are pricey, but I've heard nothing but raves about
them) and/or Working Dog next.
As always, just my opinion, YMMV.
Jay Vyas
>> are quite comparable. The Lobo doesn't really appear to be in the
> same class as these two amps, tone wise. Both the Brentwood and DP
> blew me away immediately, whereas the Lobo I'm still trying to tweak.
> I think a strat through the Brentwood playing blues sounds killer, but
> it's not the jazz tone I'm looking for.
Oops, I meant to say a "strat through the _Lobo_ playing blues sounds
killer". Got my amps mixed up in the heat of the moment ...
--Jay
David C. Stephens
out.
Dave
"Rick Ross" <rick...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:fciua.13360$Jf.69...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Jay Wolfe
it has MUCH more headroom & volume. Many top level Jazz players use
this version with awesome success. The Lobo 20 is being used by a few
Jazz players, but at low to moderate volumes.
Mine, and others I've sold to many excellent players, have
exhibited none of the minor thing Jay Vyas has experienced. Holland
spent some time & money making mods to his amp....at his request. None
of it was "quality" related. He just wanted something different, and
Holland did the mods at no charge, quickly, and without question. The
reverb is one of the features that these players "brag" about when I
hear back from them- after they rave about the awesome tone. The
busiest Jazz player in my area (Charles Carey) uses one, posted a
"glowing" review on Harmony Central, and swears it sounds better than
his $4000 Bogner. Charles is without any doubt the fussiest guy alive,
and a great player. Neither he, nor any other of the 60 or so players
that buy Holland amps from me yearly have experienced any "build
quality" issues whatsoever. Holland amps are very well made, and
guaranteed for life. Anyone can say anything bad about anything. John
Pisano, Kenny Burrell, Jackie King Al Caiola, Sid Jacobs & many others
tell me their Holland is the toughest, best sounding combo they've
ever played. Get the Holland, save the overcharge & have great tone.
Mine is the 1'st Lobo 20 made, and it's the best sounding combo I've
ever heard.
Jay Wolfe www.wolfeguitars.com
matt u
has made my decision any easier.
I feel confident that both Holland and Allen are well-made amps, and I
have heard high praise of the customer service practices of both.
I am frustrated by the fact that I can't play either of them in person
first. I suspect that I might be able to decide easily if I could...
However, it is important for me to support a manufacturer who builds
their business with quality products and customer service over a mass
market company driven instead by a bottom line. I believe that in
today's market, a few products are built to last indefinitely, while
most are made to simply last "long enough" (i.e. - planned obsolescence
- when it breaks, get a new one instead of fixing the old, etc...). I
support the former when possible, despite higher cost or lower
convenience to me. I've always been happier in the long run.
m
Richard
> Thanks everyone very much for the comments. Unfortunately, none of you
> has made my decision any easier.
>
> I feel confident that both Holland and Allen are well-made amps, and I
> have heard high praise of the customer service practices of both.
>
> I am frustrated by the fact that I can't play either of them in person
> first. I suspect that I might be able to decide easily if I could...
Jay Wolfe has a lot more data points than I do about Holland build
quality. I trust him not to fudge his numbers, and his 0 for 60 beats
my 1 for 3 by a country mile.
Just trying to insure a fair comparison here.
Jay Vyas
> The Holland L'l Jimi is the same (very low) price as the Lobo 20, and
> it has MUCH more headroom & volume. Many top level Jazz players use
> this version with awesome success. The Lobo 20 is being used by a few
> Jazz players, but at low to moderate volumes.
Sounds right to me - the basic tones of the Lobo are good, but without
a lot of headroom, so it makes sense the 6L6 amp would have more
headroom, and be more applicable to jazz. I even said that in my
original post. :-)
> Mine, and others I've sold to many excellent players, have
> exhibited none of the minor thing Jay Vyas has experienced. Holland
> spent some time & money making mods to his amp....at his request. None
> of it was "quality" related. He just wanted something different, and
That's not quite right - there was a vibration problem that was
acknowledged and fixed. I was told mine was an early one and later
ones made don't exhibit this.
> Holland did the mods at no charge, quickly, and without question.
That they did, and as I said, I think their customer service is
excellent. They called me on their dime, and spent a fair amount of
time discussing my needs, how to get the best out of the amp, how to
use different tubes, and what they could do to adjust the reverb.
That's top notch customer service.
The
> reverb is one of the features that these players "brag" about when I
> hear back from them- after they rave about the awesome tone. The
> busiest Jazz player in my area (Charles Carey) uses one, posted a
> "glowing" review on Harmony Central, and swears it sounds better than
> his $4000 Bogner. Charles is without any doubt the fussiest guy alive,
> and a great player. Neither he, nor any other of the 60 or so players
> that buy Holland amps from me yearly have experienced any "build
> quality" issues whatsoever. Holland amps are very well made, and
> guaranteed for life. Anyone can say anything bad about anything.
I don't think I was said anything bad, just related my experiences
with the amp. I still think the reverb does not sound nearly as good
as on my Holland Brentwood (which happens to be a prototype) or Fender
Dual Pro. Certainly a matter of opinion, but other people besides
myself played my Holland and thought the reverb was excessive.
I feel like you're saying I said something about their build quality,
which I don't think I did, and I also don't think I said anything bad.
In a nutshell - not the clean headroom for jazz (my opinion, but it
sounds like others may think that as well from your first sentence),
sounds great for blues, somewhat boingy reverb, knobs with a different
"active" range than most amps I've played, and an initial vibration
problem that has been fixed. I don't consider the vibration issue a
build quality issue, nor did I ever say it was, I realize this can
happen on an early issue amp.
John
> Pisano, Kenny Burrell, Jackie King Al Caiola, Sid Jacobs & many others
> tell me their Holland is the toughest, best sounding combo they've
> ever played. Get the Holland, save the overcharge & have great tone.
> Mine is the 1'st Lobo 20 made, and it's the best sounding combo I've
> ever heard.
>
Mine is a really good sounding blues amp - a buddy of mine used it
tonight at a jam and it sounded fantastic - but I'll admit I'm a
little surprised that all these jazzers would think it is the best
combo. My Holland Brentwood is an *amazing* sounding jazz amp,
everyone who plays it is blown away. Holland makes great stuff at
great prices, I'm not disputing that.
Sideways Jaye
opinion, but...if you go to the second page of this thread on the
Fender Discussion Page, you will find that noted blues player Monster
Mike Welch, and Bill Barnard are two people that had very poor luck
with Holland customer service:
http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.html?db=&topic_number=321131&offset=20
Monster Mike is a thoughtful, nice person, so his warnings definitely
made me think twice about Holland.
I recently bought an Allen Old Flame and couldn't be happier. At a
conservative 35 watts and with two beefy yet responsive 10's, it's got
headroom galor. Whereas I was running my Reverend Hellhound at Master
10 and Gain 8 to keep up with our loud rock band, the Old Flame had
plenty at Master 10 and volume 3.
And, if you set it for clean, you get pure, blackface sparkle with
very minimal breakup at reasonable levels. It's got a "raw" control
that deactivates the tone stack and makes the sound grittier, good for
rock to taste. With the raw on 0 this amp is just perfect for jazz,
and David Allen is absolutely accessible.
Having said all that, a friend recently got a 1X12 lil Jimi, and I'll
report on our taste test shortly.
CK
I found your comments on your Holland extremely thorough, fair, and
well considered; there was no indication whatsoever of immature
carping, ungrounded generalization, or unfair lambasting in your post.
Frankly, Jay Wolfe's incessant defensiveness about Heritage guitars
and Holland amps--often at the expense of any other brand of guitar or
amp--is rather repugnant. He seems to regard this newsgroup as free
space in which to advertise his wares, and anytime he feels threatened
by fair and honest comments about the things he sells, he never
hesitates to throw a punch. I find it a rather grotesque way to do
business. Of course, he'll come back and say he has a gazillion
satisfied customers, blah blah. But, God knows, I'll never be one of
them.
supe...@pacbell.net (Jay Vyas) wrote in message news:<fd35aadd.03050...@posting.google.com>...
Max Leggett
>Jay Vyas,
>
>I found your comments on your Holland extremely thorough, fair, and
>well considered; there was no indication whatsoever of immature
>carping, ungrounded generalization, or unfair lambasting in your post.
>Frankly, Jay Wolfe's incessant defensiveness about Heritage guitars
>and Holland amps--often at the expense of any other brand of guitar or
>amp--is rather repugnant. He seems to regard this newsgroup as free
>space in which to advertise his wares, and anytime he feels threatened
>by fair and honest comments about the things he sells, he never
>hesitates to throw a punch. I find it a rather grotesque way to do
>business. Of course, he'll come back and say he has a gazillion
>satisfied customers, blah blah. But, God knows, I'll never be one of
>them.
>
I will. I have a great deal of respect for him.
Tom Jaffe
"CK" <kinbo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7ded4b9f.03050...@posting.google.com...
David C. Stephens
stays out of many conversations, I suspect, just because he is a dealer and
doesn't want to offend. He surely doesn't masquerade as something other than
a dealer. If someone starts discussing Holland, his input is valuable. Same
for Heritage. So long as you realize that he's a dealer is speaking (clearly
advertised) I think he contributes to our discussions.
If you don't want to read Jay's comments, simply filter them out.
I know that several dealers monitor this group and are scared to speak up
for fear of a misunderstanding. I wish that weren't the case. If Bill
Fender, Jeff Hale, the Murches, Rich Raezer and others that lurk here could
share more freely, I think it would be a plus for our group. As it is, they
must either be thick-skinned or hold their tongues. That's a shame.
Dave
"CK" <kinbo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7ded4b9f.03050...@posting.google.com...
Mark Kleinhaut
"David C. Stephens" <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Jay's (Wolfe) a great dealer, offering great products at great prices. He
>stays out of many conversations, I suspect, just because he is a dealer
and
>doesn't want to offend. He surely doesn't masquerade as something other
than
>a dealer. If someone starts discussing Holland, his input is valuable. Same
>for Heritage. So long as you realize that he's a dealer is speaking (clearly
>advertised) I think he contributes to our discussions.
>
>If you don't want to read Jay's comments, simply filter them out.
>
>I know that several dealers monitor this group and are scared to speak up
>for fear of a misunderstanding. I wish that weren't the case. If Bill
>Fender, Jeff Hale, the Murches, Rich Raezer and others that lurk here could
>share more freely, I think it would be a plus for our group. As it is, they
>must either be thick-skinned or hold their tongues. That's a shame.
>
>Dave
>
I agree with Dave. I bought a Wechter nylon from Jay and it was a great
transaction. I would never have known about Jay and Jupiter Florida if not
for RMMGJ, so I'm glad he's here. Come to think of it, I never would have
heard about the Clarus and Reazer's Edge if not for RMMGJ either.
And what's the big deal about a little spam on the internet anyway, especially
if its for things we're interested in. Some commercials are actually useful.
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Mark.html
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Max Leggett
<dcs...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Jay's (Wolfe) a great dealer, offering great products at great prices. He
>stays out of many conversations, I suspect, just because he is a dealer and
>doesn't want to offend. He surely doesn't masquerade as something other than
>a dealer. If someone starts discussing Holland, his input is valuable. Same
>for Heritage. So long as you realize that he's a dealer is speaking (clearly
>advertised) I think he contributes to our discussions.
>
>If you don't want to read Jay's comments, simply filter them out.
>
>I know that several dealers monitor this group and are scared to speak up
>for fear of a misunderstanding. I wish that weren't the case. If Bill
>Fender, Jeff Hale, the Murches, Rich Raezer and others that lurk here could
>share more freely, I think it would be a plus for our group. As it is, they
>must either be thick-skinned or hold their tongues. That's a shame.
>
>Dave
I agree. I'll shortly be buying a guiotar from Jay based on his posts
here and the very positive things I've heard about him. And Igot
turned on to TI strings by the TI rep on this NG giving me a fre set.
There are a number of people I ignore, and if you don't like Jay's
posts, ignore him.
Tom Jaffe
constantly referring to guitarists who play your products as "jazz greats."
It seems slick and sleazy to me, and most other newsgroups have a problem
with it. Everyone knows that Jay Wolfe is a big Heritage and Holland dealer,
and they should not hesitate to call him if they desire such items. It is
the constant promoting of these products, both directly and indirectly, that
puts some of us off. If Rich Raezer posted here and only discussed those
that played his cabinets as "greats," and only chimed in when he saw a sales
opportunity, then he would get the same treatment. However, he obviously has
too much class or is too busy to do that. Jay Wolfe should take part in
discussions objectively about a variety of subject matter (not just Heritage
vs. Gibson, Holland amps, and jazz "greats" Mimi Fox and Jackie King, which
is pretty funny and obvious), and he could simply leave the 'Heritage
dealer' signature after his postings. This is all just my opinion, and I can
live with Jay's stealth salesmanship. He needs to realize, however, that
many of us are wise to his game and put off by it.
"David C. Stephens" <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:heTua.6$%E2.25...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
Jay Vyas
that a 6L6 Jimi would have better headroom for jazz than a 6V6 Lobo.
:-)
Peace,
-- Jay
matt u
m
Sideways Jaye wrote:
...
>
> I recently bought an Allen Old Flame and couldn't be happier...
Rick Ross
Jay is cool he rides a Ducati...
He pitches his wares..so what...dealers that specialize in jazz guitar
related stuff belong on a group like this..
If you no like..no read..that's all..
--
Rick Ross
(760) 803-1199
"Everything is chrome in the future.."
........Spongebob Squarepants........
"CK" <kinbo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7ded4b9f.03050...@posting.google.com...
matt u
I don't suppose you've had a chance to try the Holland yet? I'd love to
hear what you thought - especially compared to your Allen.
Thanks,
m
Sideways Jaye wrote:
> ...a friend recently got a 1X12 lil Jimi, and I'll