Disertation help
johnrworth
I'm doing a BA in Jazz Guitar in the Uk (LCM) and wondered if anyone could
help with a study I'm doing for my finals.
What I'm interested in knowing is, what if anything has created a
predominance of European/Euro-American players and values on the guitar, as
opposed to most jazz instruments and indeed the Afro-American cultural
values associated with jazz, as a whole. If anyone can thing of any reasons
for this or wants to contribute then please feel free.
Any help would be greatly apreciated.
Thanks
John Worth
Joe Finn
news:p6kga.3253$ls4.7...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
it emerged. It began with a characteristic mix of African and European music
but it was blended together and developed in a distinctly American way.
It does seem that most American jazz guitar players today are white but
there are also many excellent black players too. Blacks represent a minority
in this country but that is only part of the story. Another thing is that
black popular music has taken a different stylistic direction these days
that seems pretty much antithetical to what jazz is all about. The debt the
music owes to pioneers like Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Oscar Moore,
Freddie Green, Kenny Burrell, and Grant Green will never be repaid but the
current crop including Russell Malone, Mark Whitfield and the great George
Benson are representative of efforts in that general direction.
Almost all of today's white American jazz guitar players started out playing
rock. This background carries with it a certain perspective not to be found
among other jazz instrumentalists. Many of the better guitar players
eventually found themselves gravitating towards the more virtuosic and
complex demands of the jazz style. Many of our finest young players on every
instrument will go this route since jazz respects and demands virtuosity yet
places a high premium on creativity and originality as well.
Still the jazz audience like the rest of the American society is
predominantly white. I saw Sonny Rollins last year and sat in an audience
that was over 90% white. There were quite a few younger people there but I
don't remember seeing any blacks among them at all. My general feeling is
that the music is not black or white and that it belongs to all of humanity
for all eternity. Still the social fabric plays an undeniably crucial role
in the development of musical style.
You've got a great idea for your dissertation. Good luck with it. And thanks
for an interesting question to think about. .......joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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tomw
johnr...@ntlworld.com says...
is this just your impression? IIRC African Americans constitute
approximately 8% of the population. I would be surprised if either the
total numbers of African American jazz players or guitar players didn't
equal or surpass that percentage. I suppose it would also be very
difficult to get an accurate census of jazz musicians, since relatively
few belong to unions and many are not professional.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
MBR
certainly the blues, and its offspring, rock and roll, must have
something to do with it.
Willie K.Yee, M.D.
>"johnrworth" <johnr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<p6kga.3253$ls4.7...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>...
>> predominance of European/Euro-American players and values on the guitar, as
>> opposed to most jazz instruments and indeed the Afro-American cultural
>> values associated with jazz, as a whole.
>certainly the blues, and its offspring, rock and roll, must have
>something to do with it.
Actually, the root of the situation must go back to bebop. In the
swing and pre-swing eras, there were plenty of black guitarists, e.g.
Eddie Durham, as well as white, e.g. Eddie Lang, Joe Venuti. Then it
ends with Charlie Christian. It picks up again with Barney Kessel and
a whole string of white guitarists with the exception of Kenny Burrell
(who, of socialogical interest, could pass for white), until Wes and
Grant Green appear. (Tiny Grimes could be the exception. I don't even
know whether he was black or white.)
My theory is that with Christian's premature death, the guitar fell
out of favor as an instrument that aspiring beboppers would want to
take up. All the other instruments had giants as their proponents:
Diz, Bird, Monk, Oscar Pettiford, Max Roach. CC's loss was
catastrophic for bebop guitar.
So, where did the white guitar players like Barney come from? Dying
big bands? Western swing?
The role of Django, who preceded CC is also worthy of consideration.
--
Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org
tomw
wk...@bestweb.netttttttttttttttt says...
> On 26 Mar 2003 12:17:24 -0800, jazz...@hotmail.com (MBR) wrote:
> >"johnrworth" <johnr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<p6kga.3253$ls4.7...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>...
> >> What I'm interested in knowing is, what if anything has created a
> >> predominance of European/Euro-American players and values on the guitar, as
> >> opposed to most jazz instruments and indeed the Afro-American cultural
> >> values associated with jazz, as a whole.
> >----------------------
> >certainly the blues, and its offspring, rock and roll, must have
> >something to do with it.
>
> Actually, the root of the situation must go back to bebop. In the
> swing and pre-swing eras, there were plenty of black guitarists, e.g.
> Eddie Durham, as well as white, e.g. Eddie Lang, Joe Venuti. Then it
> ends with Charlie Christian. It picks up again with Barney Kessel and
> a whole string of white guitarists with the exception of Kenny Burrell
> (who, of socialogical interest, could pass for white), until Wes and
> Grant Green appear. (Tiny Grimes could be the exception. I don't even
> know whether he was black or white.)
You've overlooked many fine African American guitarists. You're
addressing a survey of "extremely popular jazz guitarists" which IMHO is
a different subject, and one that brings up the issue of available
opportunities for wide exposure. If we're really talking about African
American participation in jazz, and jazz guitarist in particular, the
survey should include players at all levels. This is admittedly
difficult to do, but necessary if one hopes to arrive at a meaningful
conclusion.
CRIPE733
JP
Its is noticeable that there are numerous names in Jazz guitar of European
backgrounds. I have previously noted discussion about the Italian/American
guitar player.
The instrument certainly is part of a European singalong/entertainment
tradition.
When you look at the names there is obviously a lot of migrant blood in
Pass, Diorio, Pisano, Palmieri, Martino (Azzara), Eddie Lang and so on.
I guess the whole fascination with the Gyspy guitar thing wouldcertainly be
related..
Though, the root seminal players would probably be Reinhardt and Christian.
(though thats the closest ill come to mentioning a tree :)
Some might include Eddie Lang with the two names above. Of course, there is
no denying that the voice that was heard loudest would have to be Black
American players...Wes, George, Kenny, etc...
I think its a excellent topic for a discussion paper.
JP
"johnrworth" <johnr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:p6kga.3253$ls4.7...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
Jim Kangas
Berliner. In fact, IIRC, it was related to a disertation originally.
It's sort of a sociological study of jazz musicians, based on
interviews with many mainstream musicians and their experiences,
thoughts, etc. I think it would definitely give you lots of hypotheses
to pursue, plus, it's really engaging for something like this (I must
confess that I have a degree in Sociology from the ancient past and I
never got to read anything this good!), although it is quite
voluminous.
The more basic question might be, what prompts people to pick up (or
put down) various instruments.
-Jim
(former accordionist)
"johnrworth" <johnr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<p6kga.3253$ls4.7...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>...
Joe Finn
(MBR) wrote:
> >certainly the blues, and its offspring, rock and roll, must have
> >something to do with it.
>
> Actually, the root of the situation must go back to bebop. In the
> swing and pre-swing eras, there were plenty of black guitarists, e.g.
> Eddie Durham, as well as white, e.g. Eddie Lang, Joe Venuti. Then it
> ends with Charlie Christian. It picks up again with Barney Kessel and
> a whole string of white guitarists with the exception of Kenny Burrell
> (who, of socialogical interest, could pass for white), until Wes and
> Grant Green appear. (Tiny Grimes could be the exception. I don't even
> know whether he was black or white.)
>
Tiny was black. He played a four string Guild a lot. He is well remembered
for playing with the Metronome all stars and for recording with Bird. Tiny
died in 1989.
Early blues styles were included in first generation [New Orleans] jazz and
blues continues to be central to the style today. Jazz was well established
when rock and roll emerged. As the r&r style was popularized and branched
out into various dance styles it really began to represent a third stream in
American popular music very much apart from Jazz and the so called Great
American Songbook. As I observed earlier today's rock styles [metal, hip
hop, rap, etc.] are the antithesis of the earlier traditions.
There were both black and white bands all the way back before 1920. King
Oliver's band was black and the Original Dixieland Jazz Band was white. It
was the era of segregation and the color line would stay in place for many
years to come.
> My theory is that with Christian's premature death, the guitar fell
> out of favor as an instrument that aspiring beboppers would want to
> take up. All the other instruments had giants as their proponents:
> Diz, Bird, Monk, Oscar Pettiford, Max Roach. CC's loss was
> catastrophic for bebop guitar.
Christian influenced an entire generation of guitar players. Wes always said
he was a one of his big influences. Christian also helped to knock down the
color barrier in music by playing with the historic Goodman sextet. I don't
see how it would be possible to find a guitar player who came along
subsequent to Christian who was not influenced by him.
> So, where did the white guitar players like Barney come from? Dying
> big bands? Western swing?
Barney is from Oklahoma. One of his first professional credits was with the
Chico Marx Orchestra in 1943. He played in other big bands too and was
featured in Oscar Peterson's japt trio. He was one of the greatest exponents
of his generation of the Charlie Christian style.
Herb Ellis, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow and a host of others of that generation
owe an enormous debt to the playing of Charlie Christian.
> The role of Django, who preceded CC is also worthy of consideration.
Django's influence was enormous. His work with The Quintet of the Hot Club
of France was well known in the USA on recordings. He was possibly the first
overseas player to influence his American contemporaries and was invited to
tour with Ellington in 1946. This was his only visit to the USA.
By this time Charlie Christian had died of tuberculosis. Having been a first
generation be bopper Charlie was there at Minton's in the early 1940's. With
Kenny Clarke, Monk, Bird, Diz and others Charlie helped to create the new
style. Some writers have credited Christian with coining the phrase be bop.
Joey Goldstein
Jim Pelz
> big bands? Western swing?
>
> The role of Django, who preceded CC is also worthy of consideration.
Interesting topic. I don't know enough to offer this information in
anything but an anecdotal fashion, but it seems to me that, from
having read interviews with them, many of the earlier white jazz
guitarists cite the Western swing bands as an influence (in addition
to Charlie Chritian). I'm thinking of Barnes, Ellis, Hank Garland,
Kessel, etc. Many of these guitarists also came from the mid-west,
where they would have had ample opportunity to be exposed to these
groups, which were often territory bands. Of further note is that
George Benson has cited Hank Garland as a major influence on his
playing. Good luck!
Jim Pelz
Charlie Robinson
existence of Black guitarists Thornel Schwartz, Eddie Mc Fadden, Oscar Moore,
Irving Ashby, Skeeter Best, Bill Jennings, Billy Butler and others too numerous
to mention, who were all alive, well and recording during the period pre-dates
Wes and Grant.
Charlie Robinson, G.P.
---------------------------------------------
Actually, the root of the situation must go back to bebop. In the
swing and pre-swing eras, there were plenty of black guitarists, e.g.
Eddie Durham, as well as white, e.g. Eddie Lang, Joe Venuti. Then it
ends with Charlie Christian. It picks up again with Barney Kessel and
a whole string of white guitarists with the
exception of Kenny Burrell
(who, of socialogical interest, could pass for white), until Wes and
Grant Green appear. (Tiny Grimes could be the exception. I don't even >>
<< know whether he was black or white.)
<< Willie K. Yee, M.D. >>
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or http://www.soundclick.com/bands/rmmgj_music.htm
Dennis O'Neill
Speculation on my part follows, I haven't researched it.
Maybe the prevalence of whites among guitar players in jazz is because
guitar is pretty much a peripheral instrument in jazz, barely part of
the jazz mainstream at all. When jazz was popular music (decades
ago), and kids were looking for someone that excited them and that
they wanted to emulate, guitarists weren't among the exciting ones -
they were relegated to a chair over in the corner, after all, and
could barely be heard. The exciting players were the saxophonists,
the trumpet players, the pianists. There's a small tradition of black
guitar players (Christian, Montgomery, Benson, Malone, to name four),
but it's small compared to other instruments.
I think someone else nailed it when they responded that most of the
American guitarists playing jazz today came out of the rock tradition,
where guitarists were exciting and, in some sense, worthy of
emulation; but rock was not a particularly popular music among
American blacks (in my hometown anyway) as far as I can recall from my
childhood.
I can't think of any guitarist who's had an influence on jazz music on
a par with the influences of any number of pianists, saxophonists, and
other instrumentalists (e.g., Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Bill
Evans). I've heard of many guitar players copping Charlie Parker
lines, but I've never heard of saxophonists trying to get Charlie
Christian into their playing. Guitar just hasn't been a particularly
important instrument in the development of the music, at least not as
a solo voice.
Charlie Robinson
attention that White ones were getting (see my reply to Dr. Yee). There have
always been quite a few around, in fact just as many as the White ones. I have
no idea why this is condition existed. Charlie Robinson
--------------------------------------------------
<< Maybe the prevalence of whites among guitar players in jazz is because
guitar is pretty much a peripheral instrument in jazz, barely part of
the jazz mainstream at all. When jazz was popular music (decades
ago), and kids were looking for someone that excited them and that
they wanted to emulate, guitarists weren't among the exciting ones -
they were relegated to a chair over in the corner, after all, and
could barely be heard. The exciting players were the saxophonists,
the trumpet players, the pianists. There's a small tradition of black
guitar players (Christian, Montgomery, Benson, Malone, to name four),
but it's small compared to other instruments.
I think someone else nailed it when they responded that most of the
American guitarists playing jazz today came out of the rock tradition,
where guitarists were exciting and, in some sense, worthy of
emulation; but rock was not a particularly popular music among
American blacks (in my hometown anyway) as far as I can recall from my
childhood.
I can't think of any guitarist who's had an influence on jazz music on
a par with the influences of any number of pianists, saxophonists, and
other instrumentalists (e.g., Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Bill
Evans). I've heard of many guitar players copping Charlie Parker
lines, but I've never heard of saxophonists trying to get Charlie
Christian into their playing. Guitar just hasn't been a particularly
important instrument in the development of the music, at least not as
a solo voice.
<< Dennis O'Neill) >>
----------------------------------------------------------
sgcim
> johnrworth wrote:
> >
> > Hi there,
> > I'm doing a BA in Jazz Guitar in the Uk (LCM) and wondered if anyone could
> > help with a study I'm doing for my finals.
> > What I'm interested in knowing is, what if anything has created a
> > predominance of European/Euro-American players and values on the guitar, as
> > opposed to most jazz instruments and indeed the Afro-American cultural
> > values associated with jazz, as a whole. If anyone can thing of any reasons
> > for this or wants to contribute then please feel free.
> > Any help would be greatly apreciated.
> > Thanks
> > John Worth
>
> The Beatles.
Man, you can start off by learning how to spell dissertation, it's two
esses, not one.
Joe Finn
news:20030329103218...@mb-cl.aol.com...
> I think that for whatever reasons many Black guitarists didn't get the
> attention that White ones were getting (see my reply to Dr. Yee). There
have
> always been quite a few around, in fact just as many as the White ones. I
have
> no idea why this is condition existed. Charlie Robinson
> --------------------------------------------------
>
Segregation, discrimination and racism. .....joe
AKingA
already been noted in previous responses. I would add the following.
Economics - In the late 1800''s and early 1900's the diversity of employment
opportunities for African Americans were very limited (mainly due to racism).
The typical job opportunities for African Americans were menial jobs such as
sharecroppers, janitors, cooks, doormen, etc). In addition, there were limited
numbers of careers within the African American community as teachers and
religious leaders. Entertainment, (particularly singing, dancing, and comedy)
was another area that African Americans were traditionally employed.
Entertainment offered better compensation, excitement, and somewhat less
oppressive working conditions than most of the other choices. Thus, many
African Americans, with the talent to do so, readily flocked to this employment
opportunity.
From their earliest days in America, African Americans showed great skill in
creating music based principally on inspiration and improvisation - many times
without instruments of their homeland (one of which was a stringed instrument
using guords which resembled a simple guitar).
While access to instruments was limited early on, the mobility of traveling
minstrel shows in the early 1900's brought African American into contact with a
broad range of instrument options. Access to these instruments (with money to
purchase them), along with their great inspiration and improvisation, led to
the growth and development of a new and distinctive musical form. American
businessmen in New Orleans initially, latter in Chicago, Kansas City, St. Lous
and New York found great economic benefit to providing this music in
dancehalls, bars, brothels, on riverboats, and at socials. Most consider this
period to be the birth of jazz. The music flourished and the musicians were
able to continue their creative explorations and make money.
As the economic benefits became more and more obvious, talented musicians from
African American churches began to cross over and join the ranks of the jazz
musicians. Their influence helped to further inspire the emotional intensity
of the music, and the passion of the performers. The music got hotter. The
arrangements sizzled. The music of this period physically and emotionally
propelled American audiences in ways that they weren't accustomed. A number of
new dances were created due to the music. (In some areas laws were actually
passed outlawing jazz due to its evil effects on the populace.)
Over the years, as jazz arrangements became more codified, the music began to
lose much of its spontaneity, passion and fire and the torch was successively
passed from seminal African American jazz musicians such as Armstrong, Young,
[Christian], Basie, Ellington, to a new group of musicians who rejected their
roles as entertainers and saw themselves more as creative artists, ie. Parker,
Powell, Monk, Davis, Coltrane. The music began to transistion from
entertainment in support of economic interests, to an artform principally
serving the interests of the performers and jazz aficionado's.
During the late 40's - early 50's, jazz began losing its role and its market
within American music. This also coincided with the rise in popularity of folk
music, pop music, and subsequently rock music.
As the music changed, so did the American society and economy. Career choices
for African Americans also changed - for the better. Now, the choices
included careers as architects, businessmen, scientists, lawyers, civil
servants, etc. Consequently, much of the African American genius and talent
which had served the birth and development of jazz was now dispersed among
literally hundreds of other career choices. In fact, many jazz artists left
the profession to pursue other careers.
Today, it is clear that "jazz musician" is not a career choice that one should
reasonably expect to attract large numbers of people from any racial group -
let alone African Americans. In fact, as far as the music industry is
concerned, Quincy Jones, (as well as Grover Washington and George Benson)
clearly demonstrated that encompassing, if not creating, a much broader and
popular musical style offered greater career opportunities for would be jazz
musicians.
In summary, I believe that changes in American society over the years,
diminishment in the economic benefits to the jazz musician, broader career
choices, alog with the general reduction in the prominence of jazz in America
music explains the ever declining numbers of African American Jazz musicians.
Just my $2.40. Hope it helps.
A. King
Charlie Robinson
> attention that White ones were getting (see my reply to Dr. Yee). There
have
> always been quite a few around, in fact just as many as the White ones. I
have
> no idea why this is condition existed. Charlie Robinson
> --------------------------------------------------
>
Segregation, discrimination and racism. .....joe
-----------------------------------------------------
Although these were major problems during the time period that was mentioned
and at even this late a date we still see vestiges of the attitudes of that
period the point is that although Blacks were receiving great recognition as
jazz instrumentalists on all other instruments why was this not true when it
came to the guitar.
Stan Gosnell
news:20030331065036...@mb-fi.aol.com:
>
> Segregation, discrimination and racism. .....joe
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Although these were major problems during the time period that was
> mentioned and at even this late a date we still see vestiges of the
> attitudes of that period the point is that although Blacks were
> receiving great recognition as jazz instrumentalists on all other
> instruments why was this not true when it came to the guitar.
I have to agree. These things certainly existed, but blaming them for
fewer guitar players than sax players seems to me to be pressing the point.
Why are there fewer black guitar players than sax players? I dont' know.
I would lean toward cultural issues, but I'm not sure exactly which ones,
other than that blacks in general tended to play more blues, soul, etc than
jazz after the mid-50's. Certainly there were, & continue to be, many
black jazz players, but there are more playing other genres, & there are
lots of black guitar players in those other genres.
--
Regards,
Stan
AKingA
during the Big Band era. In that context the guitar was a subordinate
instrument, proverbially felt not heard. Moreover, in comparison to horn
sections, there were far fewer opportunities for employment as a jazz
guitarist. Fewer opportunities - little star potential - less compensation -
smaller numbers of African American guitarist.
It seems that jazz guitarists in general began to gain recognition after
Charlie Christian went electric (and began to be heard) w/ Benny Goodman.
Since that time the most celebrated African American guitarists (including Wes,
Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Benson) have largely followed in Christian's
style versus say, a more harmonically based style, ie. George Van Eps. (Note I
said largely - not absolutely)
One of my favorite living African American guitarists is Jimmy Ponder. He is a
masterful guitarist in the traditional of those named above - and he has
recorded prolifically, yet he gets little recognition. It seems as he is
written off as a Wes imitator by many - when in fact I believe he is simply
continuing the tradition and doing so at a very high level. I regret that I
have not had the opportunity to seee him perform. BTW, I feel that Peter
Bernstein is also a key player in that tradition.
A. King
Max Leggett
wrote:
>I have to agree. These things certainly existed, but blaming them for
>fewer guitar players than sax players seems to me to be pressing the point.
There were also fewer opportunities for guitarists. The average big
band would have 4 reeds and 4 brass but only one guitarist. So if
you're thinking of maximising employment opportunities, you go for
sax, or trumpet. That's where the gigs are.
Charlie Robinson
I think that you are still missing my point. There were plenty of Black jazz
guitarists around during the period which we are speaking about (once again see
my reply to Dr. Yee). At that same time Black jazz players were highly
regarded on all other instruments but on guitar white players were getting the
most recognition. The question is why?
Charlie Robinson
---------------------------------------------------------------
<< I have to agree. These things certainly existed, but blaming them for
fewer guitar players than sax players seems to me to be pressing the point.
Why are there fewer black guitar players than sax players? I dont' know.
I would lean toward cultural issues, but I'm not sure exactly which ones,
other than that blacks in general tended to play more blues, soul, etc than
jazz after the mid-50's. Certainly there were, & continue to be, many
black jazz players, but there are more playing other genres, & there are
lots of black guitar players in those other genres.
--
Regards,
Stan >>
<< I have to agree. These things certainly existed, but blaming them for
fewer guitar players than sax players seems to me to be pressing the point.
Why are there fewer black guitar players than sax players? I dont' know.
I would lean toward cultural issues, but I'm not sure exactly which ones,
other than that blacks in general tended to play more blues, soul, etc than
jazz after the mid-50's. Certainly there were, & continue to be, many
black jazz players, but there are more playing other genres, & there are
lots of black guitar players in those other genres.
--
Regards,
Stan
>>
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
David C. Stephens
>
>
>
>
>
> I think that you are still missing my point. There were plenty of Black
jazz
> guitarists around during the period which we are speaking about (once
again see
> my reply to Dr. Yee). At that same time Black jazz players were highly
> regarded on all other instruments but on guitar white players were getting
the
> most recognition. The question is why?
> Charlie Robinson
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery are certainly amongst the most revered
names in jazz guitar. Joe Pass and Jim Hall sneak into this highest echelon,
IMHO. There have always been a large number of Italian-American guitarists,
so maybe there are more white players on guitar than on, say, trumpet, but I
still think that the giants have been mostly black. Today, Jimmy Bruno and
Frank Vignola head a group of younger lions, but Russell Malone certainly
hangs in with them. I'm sure there's some you black guy or gal out there
that we haven't heard of yet that'll be the next big thing in jazz guitar.
Other than that Italian-American influence I can't think of any other reason
there might be a higher proportion of white guys playing jazz guitar.
Dave
Joe Finn
> I think that you are still missing my point. There were plenty of Black
jazz
> guitarists around during the period which we are speaking about (once
again see
> my reply to Dr. Yee). At that same time Black jazz players were highly
> regarded on all other instruments but on guitar white players were getting
the
> most recognition. The question is why?
I think it's really hard to tell, when discussing a bygone era, who got the
recognition and who didn't.
Here are some poll results from Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz.
Downbeat critic's poll 1960
Kenny Burrell 23
Barney Kessel 21
Freddie Green 19
Downbeat Reader's poll 1959
Barney Kessel 1195
Herb Ellis 372
Charlie Byrd 358
Metronome reader's poll 1960
Barney Kessel 699
Jim Hall 530
Herb Ellis 296
Playboy reader's poll 1960
Barney Kessel 6992
Eddie Condon 2406
Johnny Smith 1424
Melody Maker reader's poll 1960
Barney Kessel 44.2%
Freddie Green 15.4%
Herb Ellis 12.6%
Jazz Hot Reader's poll 1960
Barney Kessel 2445
Tal Farlow 1938
Jimmy Raney 1207
Jazz Echo reader's poll 1959
Barney Kessel 27.5%
Tal Farlow 15.8%
Jim Hall 15.1%
Charlie Robinson
------------------------------------------------
I don't think that it is too hard to tell. Guys like Kessell, Farlow, Hall and
Ellis dominated. Even today most guys know who they were. But how many know
about Bill Jennings, Thornel Schwartz, Irving Ashby, Bill Harris, Floyd Smith,
Oscar Moore, Ray Crawford, Eddie Mc Fadden and numerous other Black jazz
guitarists who were on the scene before Grant and Wes. And even if they are
known no one is going to assert that they were dominating the overall scene in
the manner that those mentioned in the former group were.
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - >>
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
Joe Finn
> I don't think that it is too hard to tell. Guys like Kessell, Farlow, Hall
and
> Ellis dominated. Even today most guys know who they were. But how many
know
> about Bill Jennings, Thornel Schwartz, Irving Ashby, Bill Harris, Floyd
Smith,
> Oscar Moore, Ray Crawford, Eddie Mc Fadden and numerous other Black jazz
> guitarists who were on the scene before Grant and Wes. And even if they
are
> known no one is going to assert that they were dominating the overall
scene in
> the manner that those mentioned in the former group were.
I hear you. Interestingly enough in the same polls winners like J.J.
Johnson, Milt Jackson, Thelonius Monk, John Lewis, Oscar Peterson, Erroll
Garner, Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford, Max Roach, Art Blakey, Miles Davis, Duke
Ellington, Jimmy Rushing, Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Cannonball
Adderley, Coleman Hawkins, and Sonny Rollins are indicative of the majority.
White poll winners include Dave Brubeck, Frank Sinatra, Paul Desmond, Stan
Getz, Gerry Mulligan, Buddy Defranco, Benny Goodman, Jimmy Giuffre, and
Herbie Mann. With the exception of Burrell and Freddie Green the guitar
polls were exclusively white. Flute and clarinet polls were exclusively
white too. Most other instruments were a mixed picture with both groups
sprinkled in randomly. Trumpet and bass polls were exclusively black with
the exception of Maynard Ferguson [3rd in the Downbeat reader's poll] and
Red Mitchell who placed and showed in the Downbeat and Metronome polls
respectively.
If you were a sociologist this stuff would drive you nuts.
I'm glad I'm just a musician. 8-) .....joe
Charlie Robinson
<< If you were a sociologist this stuff would drive you nuts.
I'm glad I'm just a musician. 8-) .....joe >>
-------------------------------------
Tom Brown will work it all out, but this is starting to sound like "Brave New
World'.
thomas
> << If you were a sociologist this stuff would drive you nuts.
>
> I'm glad I'm just a musician. 8-) .....joe >>
> -------------------------------------
> Tom Brown will work it all out, but this is starting to sound like "Brave New
> World'.
That's because you're asking the wrong question: "Why were whites
dominating X instrument in X time period?" The better question is
"Why did blacks ever dominate on any instrument?"
Whites today are slightly less than 80% of the US population;
blacks around 12%. The proportion was a bit different a half
century ago, but in the same ballpark. So we should expect
to see whites dominating in every endeavor, simply because
there are so many more of them.
I think that Albert King already explained the cause of black prominence
in jazz very well. The lack of economic opportunities under Jim Crow
funneled black talent into music, and into certain musical directions.
Talented whites had many other ways to get rich and famous besides music.
Those whites who did go into music had opportunities in orchestras and
studios that blacks didn't have. So you get this intense concentration
of black talent in jazz, because there was no place else for them to go.
Flute and clarinet were studio and orchestra instruments--domains which
were largely shut off to most black players until the 60s. So no big
surprise that whites dominated the polls on those instruments.
On guitar, I think that you have a lot of white talent filtering in
not just from jazz and pop, but also from country/hillbilly, Western
Swing, etc. It is not coincidental that most of the white guys on the
list are Southerners--Kessel, Ellis, Byrd, Raney, Farlow.
As soon as whites begin competing with blacks in big numbers, whites
are going to dominate, because there are more of them. Guitar is
central to Italian folk music and to white rural folk music, so there
are a lot of white guys around who play. Thus it's not surprising that
whites dominated on guitar in the 50s.
Charlie Robinson
there are more white guys trying to play jazz on the guitar than any of the
other instruments (no statistics). But if you read jazz periodicals from the
late 50's and early 60's a great complaint among white jazz musicians of that
time was against what was called "Crow Jim" or a reverse discrimination against
white musicians by the record companies and other powers within the jazz
industry. If this was true why were guitarists excluded from the "persecuted"
others. (To keep a perspective black musicians at the time were complaining
that white mainstream players were being favored over cutting edge black
players.) My view is that there was some truth in both stances and that the
matter of white guitarists dominating was racial stereotyping. Whites through
their association with Country and Folk music just looked right as guitarists
to the powers that be. Also, during a period that was unparalleled in its use
of deceptive advertising it is quite possible that the pictures of white
guitarists on the album covers were there to deceive the unknowing into
thinking that they were buying country or rock albums. (Remember this was also
a period when pictures of white people were put on the front of black musicians
recordings). Charlie Robinson
--------------------------------------------
<< tombrown >>
Joe Finn
news:7d424f23.03040...@posting.google.com...
You mention statistical and economic factors and other ways that whites can
get rich and famous. I don't see anything about what I view as the main
reason that jazz was dominated by blacks in the late 1950s: culture. In some
sense jazz is the expression of the African-American experience. Jazz is, in
so many ways, the embodiment of what slaves brought with them from Africa
and what happened once they got here. Their beliefs, legends, songs and
rhythms were certainly changed dramatically by 1959 but somewhere in this
collision of two cultures jazz was born. More and more whites got involved
with jazz as the 20th century unfolded and today [in keeping with your
statistical idea] whites are more heavily represented than ever. When I work
with black players though, they really seem to have a sense of ownership
musically speaking. Especially guys that are old enough to have met and
worked with some of the originators. A lot of the heritage itself is closely
intertwined with their history and the hardships they endured.
I just think it's important to remember what the music really is. It's not a
function of statistics or demographics. It's not an economic opportunity or
a way to get rich. Music is a performing art and an expression of our
humanity, spirit and culture.
You make a lot of cogent points Tom but let's not lose sight of the actual
music. .....joe
AKingA
>function of statistics or demographics. It's not an economic opportunity or
>a way to get rich. Music is a performing art and an expression of our
>humanity, spirit and culture.
>
>You make a lot of cogent points Tom but let's not lose sight of the actual
>music. .....joe
Joe,
Your point is well taken. For many, it really is. However, I believe the
economic influence is tangible and significant. In example, despite the
inspired, burning jazz he recorded during the 60's, I feel that much of the
Benson of the last two-plus decades is less performing art/expression of our
humanity/spirit/culture and more economics. After all, despite the repeated
pleas of his jazz guitar fans, he has been quoted as saying it would cost him a
million dollars if he recorded a real "jazz" record. He also jokingly told me
that the reason he does this is because he has a lot of relatives to feed:-)
Other explanations are, he simply prefers to record smooth jazz, or his mean
evil record label forces him.
P.S. I actually like most of his smooth jazz.
Albert King
Charlie Robinson
yet adequately answered why jazz guitar was dominated by whites during the
50's. But hearing about Benson made me remember that he, Wes, Kenny, Grant and
numerous others talked about being influenced by those same white guitar
players. It seems that guitarists have avoided the racial divisiveness that
plagues players in other spheres of the music. This still holds true today as
is witnessed by Russell Malone's acknowledgment of guys like Barney Kessell.
Charlie Robinson
--------------------------------------------
thomas
>
> I just think it's important to remember what the music really is. It's not a
> function of statistics or demographics. It's not an economic opportunity or
> a way to get rich. Music is a performing art and an expression of our
> humanity, spirit and culture.
>
> You make a lot of cogent points Tom but let's not lose sight of the actual
> music. .....joe
Right, the social factors only explain how and why blacks arrived at
jazz prominence in such numbers. It doesn't tell us anything about what
they did once they got there.
Joe Finn
> Joe,
>
> Your point is well taken. For many, it really is. However, I believe the
> economic influence is tangible and significant. In example, despite the
> inspired, burning jazz he recorded during the 60's, I feel that much of
the
> Benson of the last two-plus decades is less performing art/expression of
our
> humanity/spirit/culture and more economics. After all, despite the
repeated
> pleas of his jazz guitar fans, he has been quoted as saying it would cost
him a
> million dollars if he recorded a real "jazz" record. He also jokingly
told me
> that the reason he does this is because he has a lot of relatives to
feed:-)
There is a big difference between the music and the music business. Since
I've got a hand in both I can tell you it's like night and day.
Max Leggett
>There is a big difference between the music and the music business. Since
>I've got a hand in both I can tell you it's like night and day.
When I was playing I simply loved the music. I loved the interaction
with other musicians, the surprising turns a song could take when 4
musos were working it over, the sheer unadulterated pleasure of
playing. The business I hated.