Everyone's a critic
Joey Goldstein
Lorne lofsky has expressed to me that if a guitar player doesn't comp
much or well that he takes him less seriously as a guitar player.
Ed Bickert (and a great many other jazz players of his generation) has
said that if he can't hear the melody he has little or no interest in
the music.
Wynon Marsalis has expressed respect and admiration for all sorts of
music but he has a list of criteria (more or less) that needs to be
filled in order for the music to be called "jazz" which is his favorite
form of music.
I'd guess that Jack and Richard place a very high value on speed and
articulation or they both would not have worked at it so hard. When I
work on speed and picking technique I get bored quickly and usually wind
up doing something else I find more interesting.
Yes, everybody's a critic, especially someone who has himself reached a
fairly high caliber of playing.
As someone receiving criticism you have the choice to:
1. Ignore it if you feel it is invalid or that it is irrelevant to your
own musical goals.
2. Pay attention to it and consider modifying your approach.
People offering criticism come from all stripes. Everyone's got an
opinion. Their opinion usually says more about their own likes and
dislikes than it does about the object of their criticism. Everyone has
an agenda. Criticism from someone you respect and/or admire should IMO
in most cases be closely considered before sloughing it off as being
irrelevant. But good criticism can also come from someone who is at a
much lower skill level than the musician being criticised. If it's good,
it's good, no matter who it comes from.
Criticism seems to come in at least 3 flavors; mean spirited, well
meaning, and/or detatched.
Mean spirited criticism, especially from someone you respect and/or
admire is the most painful to endure, especially if it is accurate. It
also seems to be the hardest to ignore. You always wonder "Why the mean
spirits?" even when it is bad criticism.
IMO well meaning, politely offered, criticism is worthy of consideration
(before sloughing it off) no matter who it comes from.
Detached criticism is the province of, or should be the province of, the
professional critic. Professional critics should have some credentials
and they should remain detatched as much as possible. Still, far too
many of these chaps are mean spirited ignoramuses.
There are no professional critics around this newsgroup. None of us are
completely detatched from our comments. We should all try not to be mean
spirited though IMO.
Personally, I hesitate to post clips because I don't take criticism very
well. I figure that the guys who are posting clips are opening
themselves up to criticism and they probably should be ready for it when
it comes. This business of everbody praising everything that anybody
does around here bugs me even more than seeing something good get
criticized. My own clip on Richard's funk thingy was well below what I
think a good jazz guitar player should be able to produce. It wasn't
horrible but it wasn't very good either. I appreciated the kind comments
from several folks. But then I started to see stuff that I thought was
even lamer than me getting praised in the same tones too or even higher
praise. It made me want to remove myself from the festivities. I took it
down because I don't want that as a representation of what I do as a
musician, no matter how accurate and sad it is. It deserved to be
criticized and wasn't. If it had been I would have probably agreed with
most things said about it, ut I'd still feel bad. I'd rather wait and
post something I'm happier with. If I'm happy with it and someone else
isn't, well that's usually their problem, not mine.
So, I guess we can all agree here to not post anything or to not
criticize anything, but good luck enforcing either one.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Kurt Shapiro
you give yourself credit for.
Granted, I don't really have much of a music "career" to defend. Still, I
just put mine up there knowing it probably wasn't the greatest
representation of my playing too, but I expect to learn a lot from revealing
my weaknesses too.
The fact that some great players here did some work on it that probably
wasn't their best I found inspiring for some odd reason.
As Popeye says: "I am what I am." Unless you hold yourself out as a great
genius who can't play a bad solo, I wouldn't worry about having everything
you let folks hear not being perfect or exceptional. Not to sound new-agey
or anything, but I think that's part of the journey.
Besides, no one here but a bunch o' freakin' guitar players.
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:422A4F57...@nowhere.net...
[snip
>
> My own clip on Richard's funk thingy
[snip]
> I took it
> down because
[snip]
tomb...@jhu.edu
criticism, but because I really don't
care very much what other guitar players
think about my playing.
I disagree with the popular
notion that lots of chops puts
you higher on the pecking order.
There is a very strong correlation
between chops and musicianship,
but it is not perfect. I would rather
listen to Hound Dog Taylor than
90% of jazz guitarists.
I know what I want to sound like,
and I know how close and how far
away I am from that sound. I also
know that what I'm going for is
not the mainstream goal of
most jazz guitarists.
And the other two reasons are:
a) the world doesn't need to hear
another mediocre guitarist, and
b) I don't have the time or the technical
resources to do it right now.
I don't see the point in criticizing
anyone's music. If you don't like
it, who cares?
Joey Goldstein
Well, helpful criticism that is not mean spirited or demeaning can be a
good thing IMO.
charles robinson
> criticism, but because I really don't
> care very much what other guitar players
> think about my playing
Thomas Brown
I agree with your overall sentiments but I post now that I have the means
just so the other guys can hear me. I enjoy listening to the others and
hopefully some of them like to hear me from time to time. Besides it is fun.
Charlie
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:422AA024...@nowhere.net...
Gerry
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
Cerainly. And gentle, even indulgent praise is probably good
encouragement for the neoophytes too. I don't see much need for it
with the professionals and long-term players, though, where oddly it
seems more effusive.
--
The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers,
immigrants and aliens, the more you control all the people.
-- Noam Chomsky
bob r
robins...@comcast.net wrote on 3/6/05 11:48 AM:
> I agree with your overall sentiments but I post now that I have the means
> just so the other guys can hear me. I enjoy listening to the others and
> hopefully some of them like to hear me from time to time. Besides it is fun.
>
> Charlie
Couldn't have said it better myself. When I listened to those nine zillion
takes on the funk track, there were certainly versions I liked better than
others, but that wasn't the point for me. It was just cool to get to hear
how everybody approached playing on the thing. And a lot more fun than going
round and round on the "proper" spelling of 4x345x or whatever.
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Jack A. Zucker
over a backing would be like invalidating a posting because of bad
grammar...Wait, we've already done that! :-)
"bob r" <Someo...@whatever.com> wrote in message
news:BE50B362.39840%Someo...@whatever.com...
bob r
j...@jackzucker.com wrote on 3/6/05 1:29 PM:
> Good point Bob, and painting a clip invalid because it uses distortion or is
> over a backing would be like invalidating a posting because of bad
> grammar...Wait, we've already done that! :-)
As Steve Martin once so aptly put it:
"Some people have a way with words. Others... um... not have way."
tomb...@jhu.edu
charles robinson wrote:
> I agree with your overall sentiments but I post now that I have the
means
> just so the other guys can hear me. I enjoy listening to the others
and
> hopefully some of them like to hear me from time to time. Besides it
is fun.
I didn't mean to demean anyone who posts clips.
I consider the clips a gift, and accept them
accordingly. I just don't understand criticizing
the clips someone offers you. It's like criticizing
someone's baby for not being cute enough. Every
musician at every level has their own thing to
say. I love checking them all out.
joemont...@hotmail.com
and final competition at the Portland (OR) Guitar Festival. I'm a no
pick player so my focus was to really see right hand technique up front
and learn a few things.
It was a learning experience in itself to watch the soloists, all of
whom have been playing a good number of years. There is big, empty
stage with one spotlight on a lone stool and 2 large diaphram mics
right in front. They all have a prepared set of pieces. Most detuned
and retuned for their selections, one guy in between movements of the
same piece. 4 judges sit about 10 rows back with clipboards and pencil
in hand critiquing every nuance, every gliss, every squeak, every
executed passage in excruciating micro detail.
The 1st guy was flawless until the last 30 seconds of his set, and
suddenly it was obvious to both him and the audience that he had made a
mistake. He continued on gallantly, but when he stood up to take his
bow, you could see it on his face that he knew he couldn't win.
>From there the other finalists just got better and better...and just
when I thought it couldn't get any better, the last guy came out, the
picture of confidence and humility, and just played and emoted
flawlessy for 15 minutes of some of the best solo guitar playing I've
seen anywhere, including Parkening and Pass!
What does this have to do with the thread? Well, I was being critical
in what I liked and thought was the better of the performances and
discussed my feeling with my wife during intermission...but after the
last guy finished, I suggested that we go. My wife said don't you want
to see who won -
I said from my perspective, it really didn't matter...I got a
tremendous amount of joy and inspiration watching all of them (even the
semi finalists that lost the day before) and will try to channel some
of the right hand stuff I saw into my playing. I figure if those
musicians could open themselves up to that intense public scrutiny,
then there must be real value in the nature of critique and
criticism...because they all got that good by being able to accept
years of criticism and use it to better themselves at their craft.
That's my critique and I'm sticking to it! <grin>
JM
icarusi
> I figure that the guys who are posting clips are opening
> themselves up to criticism and they probably should be ready for it when
> it comes. This business of everbody praising everything that anybody
> does around here bugs me even more than seeing something good get
> criticized.
If people ask for criticism or comment, then they should be prepared for
what comes. If they don't ask, then they also shouldn't get sniffy if they
get no comment at all. It doesn't matter how good/bad, it is someone
will/won't like it for any valid/invalid reason you care to think of, so
it's not really worth challenging anyone about their
reasoning/values/expertise or taking umbrage (unless they're particularly
obnoxious about it, but still better ignored).
"Good taste is what *I* like" etc.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
charles robinson
these people for years. I know their attitudes towards learning
,technique,styles, food,etc. Hearing them play brings them into sharper
focus. They become more like someone from up the street that you get
together with to play and talk about the guitar.In the case of Dick Onstenk
and his camera I've even been inside his house in Holland and met his wife
and daughter (live!). This new technology is amazing and what is going on
now is just another benefit that we reap.
Charlie
<tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:1110139544.3...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
charles robinson
criticism or to enter a contest but rather just to have a good time.
Charlie
"bob r" <Someo...@whatever.com> wrote in message
news:BE50B362.39840%Someo...@whatever.com...
Jack A. Zucker
bounds since he first started posting clips. Others too.
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:x-adncXpROe...@comcast.com...
charles robinson
Charlie
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:-vydna5nsqm...@adelphia.com...
Joe Finn
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote
> Yes, everybody's a critic, especially someone who has himself reached a
> fairly high caliber of playing.
The student is criticized by the instructor. The sideman is criticized by
the leader. The leader is criticized by everybody and sometimes in a very
public way.
Criticism is unavoidable. You can't play for the critics because you can't
please everyone. All you can do is to use your best musical judgment and
make the finest music you can make. It's up to each of us to decide what
that means. ....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
Tom Walls
>
> Personally, I hesitate to post clips because I don't take criticism very
> well. I figure that the guys who are posting clips are opening
> themselves up to criticism and they probably should be ready for it when
> it comes. This business of everbody praising everything that anybody
> does around here bugs me even more than seeing something good get
> criticized.
Lighten up. Many people posting clips here are fully aware of their
limitations. Although helpful criticism may involve pointing out
weaknesses, sometimes it's even more helpful to point out a person's
strengths.
My own clip on Richard's funk thingy was well below what I
> think a good jazz guitar player should be able to produce. It wasn't
> horrible but it wasn't very good either. I appreciated the kind comments
> from several folks. But then I started to see stuff that I thought was
> even lamer than me getting praised in the same tones too or even higher
> praise. It made me want to remove myself from the festivities. I took it
> down because I don't want that as a representation of what I do as a
> musician, no matter how accurate and sad it is. It deserved to be
> criticized and wasn't. If it had been I would have probably agreed with
> most things said about it, ut I'd still feel bad. I'd rather wait and
> post something I'm happier with. If I'm happy with it and someone else
> isn't, well that's usually their problem, not mine.
>
Again, with the "lightening up". :)
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Five Sharp
people clip's who did certain things better has had a big impact on me.
Also the whole procedure of thinking what to play where and studying the
tunes so you can do them well enough for a (personally) acceptable take has
been very instuctive.
To discard clips on canned backings as having little value does not justify
the learning process that has always accompanied producing them for me. To
me they are learning tools, just as they are learning tools for guitarists
that slow them down and steal licks. Because that's hwat they do with them,
so they tell me.
And don't underestimate the difficulty of playing a convincing and relaxed
sounding solo with a video focussed on your fingers. It's a darned HARD
thing to do. Harder than playing live IMHO. I do that too ...
Yes, a large part of me is the virtual guitarist. It's a new phenomenon that
has nothing to do with traditional jazz settings and concepts. New media
result in new possibilities. I have reached many more people with my videos
than I will ever reach with live gigs. Are they real jazz? No, not in the
traditional sense. You can't be a great jazz musician producing clips only.
But you can be a great virtual guitarist. There seems to be a market for
that nowadays with many guys exchanging clips. Call it weird. But it
happens.
Actually the Aebersold backings that I use I find very stimulating. They are
done by pros such as Ron Carter, Rufus Reid, Chris McBride and some of them
them sound really good and quite "happening." Check out Aebersold's "Hot
House" with Chris McBride and Jeff Tain Watts for some real burning.
Moreover, I have heard many a live clip (from myself including) and
participants here that featured backlines that did nothing for me. The
typical non-name (or amateur) backline of drummer and double bass isn't that
"happening." Most of what I hear on these live tracks - even if the guitar
playing is fine - is just adeqate and very often uninspired. In some cases
downright weak. And the whole ida of superb interplay that you only get by
playing live - well I have heard many clips that missed this just as much.
You need pretty good musicians to get a group happening and personally I
don't have access to them that often. And judging from quite a few clips I
have heard, I am not the only one.
Of course it can never be real jazz but playing on clips has its place in
the virtual world. Joe said something about them sounding "amateurish". Mmmm
... I could indicate a live clip or two that deserves the same label. When
was the last time you played with Chris McBride and Jeff Watts?
#####
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> schreef in bericht
news:-vydna5nsqm...@adelphia.com...
charles robinson
different things through this newgroup and other internet resources. who are
on the cutting edge of the music where experimental ideas abound . All of
the great movements in jazz have started off small like this. It is also
possible that the others are lagging behind us.
Charlie
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:393cf7F...@individual.net...
jazzy
Uzytkownik "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> napisal w wiadomosci
news:422A4F57...@nowhere.net...
> Everyone's got an opinion.
> Their opinion usually says more about their own likes and
> dislikes than it does about the object of their criticism.
VERY WELL SAID!
--
jazzy [Krzysiek Inglik]
http://GuitarZone.org
GG # 7101960
Five Sharp
audio and video and maybe even the arts in general. Maybe in the future real
time parallell sessions will be possible where musicians will digitally jam
independent of time or place.
CDs will be obsolete in a few years' time, I expect.
I'm sure I will witness the emergence of the virtual arts, virtual jazz will
be just one of them. It won't be jazz as we know it though.
#####
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:jeadnfwM-M-...@comcast.com...
Dean
discourage those who are less confident and hesitant to contribute. Not
particularly the ones being critiqued, but newcomers and others who are
checking out the newsgroup, hoping to find an environment that can
provide some support and perhaps even constructive feedback on their
playing. I have a strong enough ego to take a nasty dressing down. Over
the last three years or so I have occassionally given notice that I had
clips to hear, and not a single person here has made a nasty comment. I
guess that has something to do with my level of performance (not
threatening to anyone) and also because I haven't contributed anything
significantly denigrating or controversial to the discussions herein.
Usenet provides us with the opportunity to give criticism of others'
work from whatever perspective or mood with which we approach. This NG
is the least disfunctional that I have followed over the years. There
is a good deal of humanity and collaboration in this collection of
people. Most of us are more critical of our own efforts than others.
Sometimes the discussion is useful to me, sometimes it's not. But, I
think that in a way, the "critics" in this group are often more
informed and intelligent in their criticism than the majority of
professional critics. Jimmy Bruno's point regarding this strikes a
chord with me. Reading most critics' reviews of published musical
performances provides very little benefit to the serious reader of
those reviews, and generally no help to the artists. Even in some of
the most bandwidth-wasting flame wars here, small kernels of value find
their way to us. I would only hope to see more clips posted, and more
thorough criticism presented.
Dean Athans
http://www.deanathans.com/music/gentlerain.asx
(above link requires Windows Media Player)
Kevin Van Sant
<robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
<jeadnfwM-M-...@comcast.com> :
>It is quite possible that it is we, who are pioneering all of these
>different things through this newgroup and other internet resources. who are
>on the cutting edge of the music where experimental ideas abound . All of
>the great movements in jazz have started off small like this. It is also
>possible that the others are lagging behind us.
Interesting thought. I've been conducting a few real-time online
lessons via web-cam, and while that is certainly not any kind of
"great movement" it does seem at this point like the cutting edge of
what will almost certainly become much more commonplace as the
technology continues to develop..
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html
Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
charles robinson
and exchange ideas. We now know that people will accept MP3 quality music.
This means that any of us who want to can start making recordings together.
This is changing the idea that you have to go somewhere to be exposed to the
latest musical thought. Wait until all of the other insrumentalists start
getting into this to the extent that we have. (eg.I have a friend who is a
drummer who is rigging things up so that he can play along with clips.) The
possibilities are endless. Beyond that,as Dick has indicated, clips are only
the begining.
Charlie
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:9dep215f8sjfeba9u...@4ax.com...
Richard Bornman
I agree that most of the clips around are very much
like "recorded practice".These kinds of clips
have some value, I guess, but by and large I too
find them lacking in "concept" a lot of the time...YET
Why can't guys make their clips more artistic and unified and tasteful?
Why can't the clips be more than bedroom ruminations from a
practice session?
I believe they can. All they need is a regulation RMMGJ
flamewar and a finely reasoned post like this...
The onus for this is on the player:
I know that posting these clips has brought this element
to the forefront of my mind. It's easy to record a "wank", with
no artistic responsibility, but maybe now is the time to start
making these things with a more "serious" intent.
One of my previous clips here called "Ed's funk jam" or something
like that employed a thematic thing throughout the entire solo.
It was really cool if you ask me. Yet no -one heard it...no one
commented on that. Also my version of Just Friends,
was one of the clips I have made which I thought had some
real coherence and shape and unity...Maybe this proves
that no matter what you do, you will never please people;-)
Anyway, I believe the best artists can make art out
of whatever they have at hand...even if that be a lame
backtrack. All the artist needs now is :
0. tone
1. chops
2. taste to temper the chops
3. compositional/conversational logic
4. spontaneity
this will all result in the "perfect" mix
of intellect and soul, taste and burn and
all the other good things...
RB
Kevin Van Sant
<richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
<394a09F...@individual.net> :
>.no one
>commented on that. Also my version of Just Friends,
>was one of the clips I have made which I thought had some
>real coherence and shape and unity..
Hey Richard, in case you missed it when I posted a while ago about
it... I'll repeat that I thought your Just Friends clip was perhaps
my favorite of your non-solo clips for due to the three adjectives you
used above.
And while the best clip over a static track will never equal a true
interactive group jazz performance, I agree with your premise that
artistry can still be achieved.
Richard Bornman
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote :
> Hey Richard, in case you missed it when I posted a while ago about
> it... I'll repeat that I thought your Just Friends clip was perhaps
> my favorite of your non-solo clips for due to the three adjectives you
> used above.
Thanks for that Kev. I hope the post above didnt come off sounding
like I was implying my stuff is "perfect" or something. I really did
think those two tracks had more to say than just an attempt at
perfect "timefeel" or big chops or something.
Going thru the undergrad and postgrad courses down here
in sydney a few years ago really brought these issues home.
I mean i knew all about "compositional" playing, but actually
having my real-time music reflect that took/takes some conscious
effort. The recitals had to be much more than just blowing over
some chords.
For the record, I believe this approach can be fetishized. Too
much intellect and not enuff cutting loose can rob the music
of it's excitement for me. I have said it here before, but J Hall
has my respect, but Benson has my love, to oversimplify to
clarify my point.
>
> And while the best clip over a static track will never equal a true
> interactive group jazz performance, I agree with your premise that
> artistry can still be achieved.
Agreed.
How does a solo gtr performance figure in all of this?
Joey Goldstein
Richard Bornman wrote:
>
>
> For the record, I believe this approach can be fetishized. Too
> much intellect and not enuff cutting loose can rob the music
> of it's excitement for me. I have said it here before, but J Hall
> has my respect, but Benson has my love, to oversimplify to
> clarify my point.
And I'm the exact opposite of that. Benson has my respect, but I love
Jim Hall, and I really love Ed Bickert.
Too much cutting loose and not enough intellect can rob the music of the
experience I look to music for, which isn't always about excitement.
I respect Oscar Peterson, but I love Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett.
I respect Wynton, but I love Miles.
Etc., etc., etc.
Richard Bornman
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote :
> And I'm the exact opposite of that. Benson has my respect, but I love
> Jim Hall, and I really love Ed Bickert.
> Too much cutting loose and not enough intellect can rob the music of the
> experience I look to music for, which isn't always about excitement.
>
> I respect Oscar Peterson, but I love Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett.
> I respect Wynton, but I love Miles.
mmm i would place Evans and Jarrett firmly in the "cutting loose" camp.
BTW by "cutting loose" I dont mean running some big chops, but rather
a sense of abandon which aims to please on a visceral level...like eschewing
the need to be "artistic" and "clever" and "new" in order to communicate
on a more basic level. Like playing some blues stuff in a solo...This part
of the music (which often happens at the climax) is often the most moving
aspect to me.
Of course without the surrounding contrasted material it
works less well. Players who consistently subvert this "orgiastic" element
in the music strike me as neurotic and too serious. All good players
have both elements. The proportions may vary from player to player...and
of course my sense of a good "proportion" may be another listeners aural
hell...
I guess i am saying that the emotional aspect of the human animal
is inherently more affecting than the intellectual aspect because it is
involuntary,
and that i find that if this part of me is stimulated that my satisfaction
is somehow greater
than if i am purely intellectually stimulated....Of course intellectual info
can have an emotional response too so.....
Do you enjoy popular music Joey? Do you intellectually process
things when you hear your faves? I know I do, and after i have done that
I remain amazed at how dissecting the thing hasn't shown why i like it.
I am always in some remote way
trying to make my jazz music have the groove and accessibility of some
of my fave pop stuff...
I can hear folks already saying: Well if you want those things in your
music, why dont you just play pop music....
RB
Tom Lippincott
news:1110227417.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> One thing that a lot of harsh, "mean spirited" criticism can do is
> discourage those who are less confident and hesitant to contribute. Not
> particularly the ones being critiqued, but newcomers and others who are
> checking out the newsgroup, hoping to find an environment that can
> provide some support and perhaps even constructive feedback on their
> playing.
that's a good point; for years I wrote poetry and, occasionally, short
stories, and was what might be considered a "serious hobbyist" as a writer.
A few years ago, when I was getting ready to release my first CD, I was
considering including a little booklet of some poems in the CD package. I
found a poetry newsgroup, and posted a couple of my poems, requesting
comments and criticism. The comments I received were so dismissive,
demeaning, and full of sarcasm that I was pretty profoundly affected. I
knew the people making comments weren't worth listening to, and I even
received a few private emails from lurkers who urged me to not pay any
attention to the negative, mean spirited comments, but I couldn't help but
be pretty discouraged. The result was that not only did I not include any
poems in the CD package, I've hardly written any poetry at all since then.
I hope reading this newsgroup has never had a similar effect on any budding
jazz guitar enthusiasts.
I have a strong enough ego to take a nasty dressing down. Over
> the last three years or so I have occassionally given notice that I had
> clips to hear, and not a single person here has made a nasty comment. I
> guess that has something to do with my level of performance (not
> threatening to anyone) and also because I haven't contributed anything
> significantly denigrating or controversial to the discussions herein.
>
> Usenet provides us with the opportunity to give criticism of others'
> work from whatever perspective or mood with which we approach. This NG
> is the least disfunctional that I have followed over the years. There
> is a good deal of humanity and collaboration in this collection of
> people. Most of us are more critical of our own efforts than others.
> Sometimes the discussion is useful to me, sometimes it's not. But, I
> think that in a way, the "critics" in this group are often more
> informed and intelligent in their criticism than the majority of
> professional critics. Jimmy Bruno's point regarding this strikes a
> chord with me. Reading most critics' reviews of published musical
> performances provides very little benefit to the serious reader of
> those reviews, and generally no help to the artists.
I'm not so sure about that; I just recently heard a quote about this subject
that went something like "I don't care what you call me in print, as long as
you spell my name right." I really do think that the only two things
keeping jazz alive these days is jazz education and the jazz media
(magazines and radio stations mainly). As distasteful as much jazz
criticism is to musicians, I think it's at worst a necessary evil.
Even in some of
> the most bandwidth-wasting flame wars here, small kernels of value find
> their way to us. I would only hope to see more clips posted, and more
> thorough criticism presented.
>
> Dean Athans
> http://www.deanathans.com/music/gentlerain.asx
> (above link requires Windows Media Player)
>
--
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm
Joe Finn
> that's a good point; for years I wrote poetry and, occasionally, short
> stories, and was what might be considered a "serious hobbyist" as a
> writer.
> A few years ago, when I was getting ready to release my first CD, I was
> considering including a little booklet of some poems in the CD package. I
> found a poetry newsgroup, and posted a couple of my poems, requesting
> comments and criticism. The comments I received were so dismissive,
> demeaning, and full of sarcasm that I was pretty profoundly affected. I
> knew the people making comments weren't worth listening to, and I even
> received a few private emails from lurkers who urged me to not pay any
> attention to the negative, mean spirited comments, but I couldn't help but
> be pretty discouraged. The result was that not only did I not include any
> poems in the CD package, I've hardly written any poetry at all since then.
> I hope reading this newsgroup has never had a similar effect on any
> budding
> jazz guitar enthusiasts.
Tom: You've got to have a thick skin. You've got to be able to say to
yourself that even if people hate what you're doing and say so publicly in
major publications even, it's o.k.
Fuck 'em. It's their loss.
I tell myself that I'm going to be doing what I'm doing regardless of what
anybody else says. This is the path I have chosen. For better or worse my
intention is to continue moving forward.
Everybody gets bad reviews. I'll bet Tom Hanks, Clint Eastwood and Robert
DiNiro have gotten them. What difference does it make?
Never let what somebody else says stop you from doing what you intend to
accomplish. .....joe
Tom Walls
tomlip...@bellsouth.net says...
>
> that's a good point; for years I wrote poetry and, occasionally, short
> stories, and was what might be considered a "serious hobbyist" as a writer.
> A few years ago, when I was getting ready to release my first CD, I was
> considering including a little booklet of some poems in the CD package. I
> found a poetry newsgroup, and posted a couple of my poems, requesting
> comments and criticism. The comments I received were so dismissive,
> demeaning, and full of sarcasm that I was pretty profoundly affected. I
> knew the people making comments weren't worth listening to, and I even
> received a few private emails from lurkers who urged me to not pay any
> attention to the negative, mean spirited comments, but I couldn't help but
> be pretty discouraged. The result was that not only did I not include any
> poems in the CD package, I've hardly written any poetry at all since then.
> I hope reading this newsgroup has never had a similar effect on any budding
> jazz guitar enthusiasts.
>
>
have his clips ignored than rudely criticized. People seem to save the
vicious stuff for the really good players. I think that where the group
can be discouraging is when the more advanced players raise the bar so
high as to be beyond the reasonable expectations of the humble player.
Not with they're playing, but with their pontificating.
Unknown
<tomlip...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>A few years ago, when I was getting ready to release my first CD, I was
>considering including a little booklet of some poems in the CD package. I
>found a poetry newsgroup, and posted a couple of my poems, requesting
>comments and criticism. The comments I received were so dismissive,
>demeaning, and full of sarcasm that I was pretty profoundly affected.
I share your hope that nobody has been subjected to that sort of
treatment here, but I don't think there is much of that sort of
treatment in this newsgroup. It seems to me that the harshest
criticism is reserved for big targets -- well known players who are
unlikely to be deeply affected by it because they have been subjected
to it before. It's unlikely that Barney Kessel or Al DiMeola would
have given up guitar playing because somebody said something bad about
him here.
I think we're lucky compared to most newsgroups. There are genuinely
mean people who go out of their way to hurt others simply for sport in
many of the newsgroups. It sounds like those are the sort who
critiqued your poetry. We don't have much of that going on here. For
a good dose of it, check our rec.music.classical.guitar some time.
Tim
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Learn something...Have some fun
timb at erinet dot com
Max Leggett
Tom's right about poetry critiques. I know a couple of published
poets, and they say it's pure viciousness. Plus there's all sorts of
schools - post colonial theory, feminist theory, queer theory,
deconstructionist theory - so there's this huge arsenel of weapons
that people can use to bludgeon you with. And they do. We get the
occasional boor waddle through here, but by and large it's reasonably
civilised.
-------------------------------------------------------
Is it not strange that sheep's guts should hale
souls out of men's bodies?
Willie 'The Lion' Shakespeare
-------------------------------------------------------
Greger Hoel
Leggett) wrote:
>Tom's right about poetry critiques. I know a couple of published
>poets, and they say it's pure viciousness.
I'm studying Nordic these days, litterature and linguistics, and if
our history is anything to go by, poets've been at each other's
throats ever since the first drop of urine hit the first cave
painting. It's just insane.
--
_______________________________________________
Always cross a vampire, never moon a werewolf
To reach me, swap spammers get bent with softhome
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Smith
criticism, but just being dismissed as irrelevant really hurts. And yet
we have to go on with or without peer approval
Kurt Shapiro
Oh, man, if I have to start turning out rmmgj clips that meet that criteria,
I'm screwed.
;-)
"Richard Bornman" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:394a09F...@individual.net...
Gerry
<pj...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> That was how I felt after being "georged". I don't mind constructive
> criticism, but just being dismissed as irrelevant really hurts. And yet
> we have to go on with or without peer approval.
The difficulty is the amount of emphasis and value we ourselves confer
on the criticism. There are a few exceptional players here that seem
unendingly devastated by the 1 in 40 responses that aren't gushing
praise.
But for better players and worse players--it's about the fragility of
our own egos. It's amazing how we fast we can skim 20 positive
statements to find the one oblique one, distort it into a vicious
attack, and then clutch it to our breast for the week...
--
The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers,
immigrants and aliens, the more you control all the people.
-- Noam Chomsky
Pat Smith
juru...@aol.com
I used to think so, but lately I'm beginning to rethink that.
>There are genuinely
>mean people who go out of their way to hurt others simply for sport in
>many of the newsgroups.
We may not have as many, but there are trolls here too.
The translation from Czech or whatever it was that someone provided of
the 'criticisms' of Jack in the Donna Lee thread were in this category
it seems to me.
was a literal full frontal fusillade - scurrilous, dismissive, grossly
inaccurate and extremely puerile. It still pisses me off to think about
it.
Like sour grapes, but these were more on the melon level sizewise. I
thought it was shameful, but I'm not from there.
Eastern Europeans have a millennial history of intracultural violence,
and that sort of communication may be part of the reason.
I'd be the first to admit I don't understand things like the sudden
eruption of ethnic violence among previously peaceful but culturally
diverse neighbors in the absence of a military authoritarian presence,
but it happens.
We have a lot of cultural diversity and ethnic immiscibility in the
States and always have, but there's more space, and maybe we're a
little more polite to strangers in some areas since we can all own
firearms. Courtesy seems to be sort of inversely proportional to local
gun control laws.
That's been my experience anyway.
Funny. I used to think that the ideal jazz guitarist's audience would
probably be European and generously salted with jazz guitarists.
What the fuck could I have been thinking?
I'll never stop loving jazz, but as a public performance vehicle, I'm
about done with it.
I just joined a blues group and except for private bookings or
instructional material, that's what I'm going to be playing for money
in front of audiences, anyway.
Part of my decision to do that was from reading criticisms by alleged
jazz musicians here. I don't want that kind of person in my audience.
My music performances are personal, and the kind of attack I read in
the Czech paper would have been taken by me in the same manner as if it
were uttered against a wife or child. You just don't SAY shit like
that!
That was not criticism in any sense of the word, just what they call in
some states 'fighting words'. People literally get killed for less,
and most of us know that.
I remember a few months ago, Dick O. asked me to make a vid of my
fingerstyle heads of Donna Lee. I couldn't do it at the time because
my computer wouldn't read the codecs I needed, but since then, I've
upgraded and actually have some vids, but they're staying on my hard
drive.
I might include them or a better version in instructional CD or DVD
pubs I'm working on, but if someone rips Jack apart over a casually
tossed off but nonetheless technically and musically dazzling clip of
the same tune, I don't want any part of the process. Once bitten,
twice shy and you guys really bite.
Back to bein'
Texas Albert White
Gerry
<"juru...@aol.com"> wrote:
> The translation from Czech or whatever it was that someone provided of
> the 'criticisms' of Jack in the Donna Lee thread were in this category
> it seems to me.
I didn't see it, thankfullly.
> Eastern Europeans have a millennial history of intracultural violence,
> and that sort of communication may be part of the reason.
Everybody has their problems. All matters political are quickly
becomding "cultural" it seems, in order to gain it more utility as a
partisan bludgeon.
And racism is a fundamental part of American society. So I don't think
it's strictly locked into any one part of Europe or any where else in
the world. In a op-ed thing in the NYTimes today regarding racist
leader "the Reverend Dr." Matt Hale pointed out that the Southern
Poverty Law Center follows racist/anti-semite organizations in the
600's and with actual membership of more than 100k. And this is just
the folks that are wanted to have the bona-fide card for their wallet.
> Funny. I used to think that the ideal jazz guitarist's audience would
> probably be European and generously salted with jazz guitarists.
>
> What the fuck could I have been thinking?
You might have been thinking the truth. I met a German once that was a
total prick. But I didn't re-invent my positive view of Germany or
Germans because of that one nincompoop.
> I'll never stop loving jazz, but as a public performance vehicle, I'm
> about done with it.
>
> I just joined a blues group and except for private bookings or
> instructional material, that's what I'm going to be playing for money
> in front of audiences, anyway.
>
> Part of my decision to do that was from reading criticisms by alleged
> jazz musicians here. I don't want that kind of person in my audience.
Jeez man--that reference group is so damn tiny. How the heck do you
come away thinking this is even vaguely representative of anything but
a *subset* of a bunch of aged guitarists with computers?
> My music performances are personal, and the kind of attack I read in
> the Czech paper would have been taken by me in the same manner as if it
> were uttered against a wife or child. You just don't SAY shit like
> that!
>
> That was not criticism in any sense of the word, just what they call in
> some states 'fighting words'. People literally get killed for less,
> and most of us know that.
>
> I remember a few months ago, Dick O. asked me to make a vid of my
> fingerstyle heads of Donna Lee. I couldn't do it at the time because
> my computer wouldn't read the codecs I needed, but since then, I've
> upgraded and actually have some vids, but they're staying on my hard
> drive.
Well as long as you're basing your decision-making on the opinion of 1
or two people and disregarding the real or implied views of the other
600 million....
> I might include them or a better version in instructional CD or DVD
> pubs I'm working on, but if someone rips Jack apart over a casually
> tossed off but nonetheless technically and musically dazzling clip of
> the same tune, I don't want any part of the process. Once bitten,
> twice shy and you guys really bite.
I admit I didn't read the entire thread only skimming 60% of it, but I
really never saw anybody dismantle the guy. Even so--no musician,
whether Wes or Farlow or anybody else--gets away without destractors.
I've heard far more carping about Farlow and Burrell in the past year
than any of the local crew.
I think both Tal and Burrell have a number of fine features, and have
no intention of giving up jazz because somebody doesn't like them.
--
The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who
are undecided.
-- Casey Stengel
Joey Goldstein
Richard Bornman wrote:
>
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote :
>
> > And I'm the exact opposite of that. Benson has my respect, but I love
> > Jim Hall, and I really love Ed Bickert.
> > Too much cutting loose and not enough intellect can rob the music of the
> > experience I look to music for, which isn't always about excitement.
> >
> > I respect Oscar Peterson, but I love Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett.
> > I respect Wynton, but I love Miles.
>
> mmm i would place Evans and Jarrett firmly in the "cutting loose" camp.
> BTW by "cutting loose" I dont mean running some big chops, but rather
> a sense of abandon which aims to please on a visceral level...like eschewing
> the need to be "artistic" and "clever" and "new" in order to communicate
> on a more basic level. Like playing some blues stuff in a solo...This part
> of the music (which often happens at the climax) is often the most moving
> aspect to me.
Don't know why you'd leave Jim Hall out of that then.
*I* think that there's a macho thing you like to have in the music you
like. (I could be wrong.) Sort of a sports-like element to it. Drummers
have to have it. I respect that when people do it well, but it's not for
me. I was never any good at sports. Maybe that's why.
> Of course without the surrounding contrasted material it
> works less well. Players who consistently subvert this "orgiastic" element
> in the music strike me as neurotic and too serious. All good players
> have both elements. The proportions may vary from player to player...and
> of course my sense of a good "proportion" may be another listeners aural
> hell...
>
> I guess i am saying that the emotional aspect of the human animal
> is inherently more affecting than the intellectual aspect because it is
> involuntary,
> and that i find that if this part of me is stimulated that my satisfaction
> is somehow greater
> than if i am purely intellectually stimulated....Of course intellectual info
> can have an emotional response too so.....
Sort of tribal, eh? Dance music, etc.
In the bad bad lands of Australia
Many years ago
The aborigine tribes were meeting
Having a big pow wow
We got a lot of trouble Chief
On account of your boy Mac
My boy Mac? Why what's wrong with him?
My boomerang won't come back
My.....
Boomerang won't come back.
My boomerang won't come back.
I wave the thing all over the place
Practice till I get black in the face
I'm a big disgrace to the aborigine race
My boomerang won't come back.
Good on ya mate...
> Do you enjoy popular music Joey?
Quite often moreso than jazz. Not much of today's pop though.
Stevie Wonder still gives me chills. I Wish...Superstitious. Man!
I think next to my favorite jazz (I don't like lots of jazz, but some of
it I love) I dig R&B the most.
> Do you intellectually process
> things when you hear your faves?
On some levels, yes. On some levels no.
> I know I do, and after i have done that
> I remain amazed at how dissecting the thing hasn't shown why i like it.
It never does, for me. I just have to like it. Knowing why...well, I
don't think that's really possible ultimately. You might be able to
point at this or that thing here and there but all you really have to do
is like it and I don't think that has anything to do with intellect. For
me it has to do with heart.
> I am always in some remote way
> trying to make my jazz music have the groove and accessibility of some
> of my fave pop stuff...
> I can hear folks already saying: Well if you want those things in your
> music, why dont you just play pop music....
Seems like a valid question.
juru...@aol.com
>
> You might have been thinking the truth. I met a German once that was
a
> total prick. But I didn't re-invent my positive view of Germany or
> Germans because of that one nincompoop.
This was a gaggle of nincompoops acting in joint nincompoopery.
I'm just afraid they're really right and I'm really wrong.
They seem much more more than less typical, and majority tends to rule
everywhere. The consensus also seems to be that this type of thing is
ok. >
> >
> > My music performances are personal, and the kind of attack I read
in
> > the Czech paper would have been taken by me in the same manner as
if it
> > were uttered against a wife or child. You just don't SAY shit like
> > that!
> >
> > That was not criticism in any sense of the word, just what they
call in
> > some states 'fighting words'. People literally get killed for
less,
> > and most of us know that.
> >
> > I remember a few months ago, Dick O. asked me to make a vid of my
> > fingerstyle heads of Donna Lee. I couldn't do it at the time
because
> > my computer wouldn't read the codecs I needed, but since then, I've
> > upgraded and actually have some vids, but they're staying on my
hard
> > drive.
>
> Well as long as you're basing your decision-making on the opinion of
1
> or two people and disregarding the real or implied views of the other
> 600 million....
I'm basing my decision-making on about seven years of posting and
reading here, and more people with shitty attitudes than I could
accurately count.
They don't any of 'em need one more guitar schmoe doing Donna Lee. When
I play blues, people usually, in fact I'd say always like it, and none
of them are jazz guitar players or probably even know what jazz is, but
they're much nicer and genuinely appreciate what's being played. They
even tip!
I'm starting to think that if I don't have to, why lick a frozen
flagpole?
When I listen to a player, I'm rooting for the music, not against it.
It's not my nature to listen to a musician with crossed arms and legs
and my chin tucked into my chest. I don't listen down at it either.
It seems to me that maybe a majority of people who know anything about
music or play some jazz do all that, and I'm not really comfortable
being that kind of person. Nor am I comfortable around them - I think
it's boorish. The whole 'george' thing pretty much kicked the props out
from under everything else the ng was about because so many people have
actually bought into it. You can't unring a bell. That's not ever
going to go away.
That kind of person doesn't want jazz for any kind of enjoyment or
enlightenment. It seems the primary purpose of listening is to talk
about all the player's faults. I don't want to play for people like
that, do you?
> > I might include them or a better version in instructional CD or
DVD
> > pubs I'm working on, but if someone rips Jack apart over a casually
> > tossed off but nonetheless technically and musically dazzling clip
of
> > the same tune, I don't want any part of the process. Once bitten,
> > twice shy and you guys really bite.
>
> I admit I didn't read the entire thread only skimming 60% of it, but
I
> really never saw anybody dismantle the guy. Even so--no musician,
> whether Wes or Farlow or anybody else--gets away without destractors.
> I've heard far more carping about Farlow and Burrell in the past year
> than any of the local crew.
That's exactly what I'm talking about!
If there's something to criticize about those guys and somebody
actually has to say it out loud, or worse yet, write it out in a public
forum, would you want them in YOUR audience?
I sure as hell wouldn't. If I play blues, they'll never come in - it's
beneath them per se.
The post I referred to wasn't criticism, it was a scourge - go read the
thing. It read like an excerpt from a soap opera script.
>
> I think both Tal and Burrell have a number of fine features, and have
> no intention of giving up jazz because somebody doesn't like them.
I have no intention of giving up jazz either. But I will give up
audiences.
Clif
Formerly Sideways
juru...@aol.com wrote:.
Clif - I salute and agree with your defense of Jack in the Donna Lee
thread, and I respect your musicianship.
However, I don't think anything is accomplished by picking up your
marbles and going home (or restricting yourself to blues for playing
out). Also, your thoughts on Eastern European culture are veering
toward a slippery, off-topic slope.
Hey Clif, don't you remember playing in bars or military clubs in
Tidewater, where there were no shortage of guys standing around with
their arms crossed with that "you ain't shit" look on their face? (of
course, most of them couldn't play an open E chord)
You shrugged it off then, and you should shrug it off now. Almost
invariably this kind of abuse comes from the wannabes anyway. And when
it happens to come from a good player... well, sometimes good musicians
have lousy personalities, lousy taste, and a lousy attitude.
Don't let the bastards get you down. I can't believe there aren't
plenty of people out there who appreciate your jazz playing.
Are you going to let them down by refusing to play jazz out? Who wins
then? What message does that send?
Yours, hopefully in friendship,
j
Tom Walls
juru...@aol.com says...
>
> If there's something to criticize about those guys and somebody
> actually has to say it out loud, or worse yet, write it out in a public
> forum, would you want them in YOUR audience?
>
> I sure as hell wouldn't. If I play blues, they'll never come in - it's
> beneath them per se.
>
I can relate to the things you're saying, but if you were to ask my
advice -- and you didn't -- I would advise you to take a deep breath and
let it go.
Tom Lippincott
news:d0pi68$dbv$3...@news01.cit.cornell.edu...
I have to agree with Tom here, Clif. I can also very much relate to what
you're saying, but I think you're taking a pretty one sided view of things.
I remember when I discovered this newsgroup, I thought it was the coolest
thing ever; a forum for people all over the world to talk about jazz guitar!
But I always wondered why so few (if any) of the musicians in my area
followed it. One time I asked a bass player I know about it and he said his
impression of music newsgroups is that they're all bunch of know-it-all
computer nerd types who can't play but like to obsess about stupid useless
details to make themselves feel important. I have to admit, I have
definitely seen this side of the whole newsgroup thing, though from what
I've seen of other newsgroups I tend to think this one is much less that way
than the average. However, I do think that this newsgroup represents a
rather skewed cross section of the jazz guitar playing public. I'd say that
the majority of really good musicians I've met or talked to have either
never even heard of newsgroups, or have no interest in them. I think MOST
people tend to have the impression that my bass player friend did; that
people who follow newsgroups are the same types who go to Star Trek
conventions, have heated arguments about the correct pronunciation of
Klingon words, and are 40 year old overweight virgins who live with their
mother. Kind of like the comic book guy on the Simpsons. There are
defintely times when I picture some of the posters here as comic book guy,
sitting there and pompously pronouncing "worst clip EVER."
At any rate, I think this is a stereotype, and that it's somewhat of an
unfair one, but there is some basis for the idea. I'm not saying that
there's a vast world of totally different jazz guitar playing folks out
there who are humble and not at all mean spirited; in general I do think
that even away from the "newsgroup hive" there are an awful lot of insecure
guitar players (not to mention jazz players who play other instruments) out
there with huge chips on their shoulders, who listen, as you say, with their
arms folded. But at any rate, my point is I don't think you should judge
what the typical jazz audience is based on this newsgroup. So far I'm just
talking about musicians anyway. You seem to be working under the assumption
that only musicians are interested in jazz. I also think that's a bit of a
fallacy. Obviously, the vast majority of the non musician public doesn't
know jack about jazz, and many of them actively dislike it, but my
experience has been pretty overwhelmingly that poeple of a certain
intelligence and sophistication (maybe what Bill Evans would call the
"sensitive layman") tend to respond pretty positively to jazz when it's
played with passion and imagination. I suppose I'd have to confess a
certain guilty pleasure in having a musician come up to me and give me
compliments after hearing me play, but in general I feel the most
satisfaction when I feel like I've made a connection with someone who is
obviously not a musician or a really knowlegeable jazz fan. And I've found
that the older I get, and the more experienced I get as a performer, the
more this tends to happen. I hope you don't give up on performing jazz. I
think the world will be little bit of a worse place if you do.
juru...@aol.com
marbles and going home (or restricting yourself to blues for playing
out).
Well, it'll pay some bills, I like the guys in the band, and should be
fun. It's not like I'm the one making the restriction anyway - that's
the work that's there right now.
Part of that is where I am. There are a lot more jazz musicians than
jobs for them around here - I think zero in Aurora - the girl at the
local 'jazz' club said Stanley Jordan wasn't well-received, for
example. If people just don't want to hear jazz all that much or even
at all, then why push it?
Hey Clif, don't you remember playing in bars or military clubs in
Tidewater, where there were no shortage of guys standing around with
their arms crossed with that "you ain't shit" look on their face? (of
course, most of them couldn't play an open E chord)
I played civilian clubs there, but I did the military gigs at Bragg and
Lejeune and whatever that quartermaster outfit is at Petersburg, Va. I
played for a lot of military in those Tidewater clubs, but when I was
onstage the audience feedback was about 100% positive.
It was just a different time, and I was usually with a pretty
well-received band with some kind of following, so I could coast and
still look good. :o)
You Toms and Jay may be right, and there is a lay audience for jazz,
and Tom L. may be right about the profile of jazz ng readers not being
typical of musicians or audience. I don't really know.
Maybe I just jumped into the ng at a time when it was being congenial,
but the first assault I recall was really silly, and aimed against Tom
L by some troll who called himself 'snott ragg'. He hit me with one
too, which I found flattering, considering I shared billing of any kind
with such a stellar player as Tom.
But in the past few years, it just smells different to me. Maybe it
just came around again, but I never saw it the first time.
One thing I'll have to say, at least on the newsgroup, and I won't try
to project it to anywhere else is that among the people who post here,
lots and lots of them tend to be much more critical than I am or feel I
should be about how a person plays.
What I said before, is that I'd prefer to avoid playing for people who
are that critical. It's an exercise in self-abuse if you try to please
people whose major musical success is in convincing themselves of your
failure. If they actually DO like you, there'd have to be something
wrong...
It's a shame. Like Tom, I thought I'd found a window into the
international jazz world with these newsgroups, but with fewer than
maybe five exceptions, no musician I've ever played with is involved in
them.
I can't believe there aren't
plenty of people out there who appreciate your jazz playing.
Oh, I can.
I literally doubt I could live without jazz, but I love guitar and
playing enough that I can do it for myself and not worry much about it.
It would be nice to have an audience, but the reality is I don't, and
probably won't. Blues has its own audience in colorado, anyway, just
like country.
I have some mutual friends of Jerry Hahn here. The tell me that even
Jerry had trouble finding work in Denver - my experience has been that
there are a few jobs, a few more guys and gals and that's about the way
it stays.
Are you going to let them down by refusing to play jazz out?
I'd have to find them to let them down. They might both be out of town
or in jail, anyway.
Who wins then?
Probably the Pan-Balkan Jazz Preservation Society, George, people who
regard anything but detached single line mezzoforte guitar playing as
rubbish, anybody that thinks Pass had bad time or that Tal couldn't
play or Trane didn't swing or the bargeload of other one off opinions
I've heard here. As a professional, I'd have no idea what to provide
that crowd that would be acceptable. I'd assume nothing. Are the local
colleges full of people like that? I'm kind of afraid they might be.
What message does that send?
an unheard one. It isn't like I have the cure for cancer, or even the
heartbreak of psoriasis. I just think it might be more practical to go
where there's a little more money, and I might save myself a lot of
bother. I don't know if it will still be that way, but I used to get a
lot of attention in blues or country bands - I'm tall.
Clif
Paul Kirk
Is there some way you can "preserve" the quote level in your posts here?
This one is real wierd to read because I get confused on what is you
and what is the message you are replying to. Maybe its just my news server,
and with some sleuthing I could probably parse it, but it's work.
I've noticed this from your posts lately and I dont see it one anyone else's
Paul K.
juru...@aol.com
here?
Only manually, I'm afraid.
AOL doesn't support usenet anymore, and I use the google webpage.
Sometimes the quotes come over in blue, and sometimes they don't, and
sometimes they come over in a completely different format, like I'm
used to seeing Yahoo. I have no idea how they're read with other
newsreaders. I'll try to remember, but I'd been having problems with
my net connection all day - it may have been a bad phone cord - I
replaced it and am having better luck so far.
Clif
William C.
<juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1110518484....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Clif,
Net Zero is cheaper, is 10 bucks, has been reliable. Here is a free (at
least when I signed up) and decent news server; more than one person here
uses this, including me:
The web page is for sign-up.
Then it functions as any newserver, through news reader of your choice.
Even using AOL (I've never) you could still probably use Outlook Express or
whatever newsreader (?).