Help, my horn player is a sight reading monster
Dick Onstenk
been studying a few Parker solos. Took me quite some time to get
"Bloomdido" and "Ornithology" down ... Really hard work.
Well anyway, I was playing these Parker solos in the rehearsal room
and my friend Roel (alto sax in the "Roel Penterman 4" I play in)
thought that was cool. "Hey, Dick, let's do them unisono and use them
as heads." The guy opened his omnibook, looked for the tunes and
played Ornithology just like that, sight reading his way through it.
After that "Bloomdido." Just like that. Without the blink of an eye,
leaving me in awe.
And then it got worse. "Cool Dick, but let's use the ORIGINAL Bird
tempo's" AAAAAAARGH. Try playing Parker's solo on Bloomdido at 240 BPM
(let alone sight reading it) and you'll know what I mean. Same for
Ornithology ...
Darned sight reading monster. It ain't fair ...
And now I will have to play those solos in the original Parker tempos
unisono with sax (swallow).
I guess I got what I deserved for showing off.
Dick
Mark Kleinhaut
LOL. Horns read good, guitars read like piss. Been that way for the longest
time(generally), nobody knows why.
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Mark.html
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dirk
for any given note (no choices to be made) .
Max Leggett
>d.on...@chello.nl (Dick Onstenk) wrote:
>>Geez ... Good sight reading has its advantages. As you may know I have
>>been studying a few Parker solos. Took me quite some time to get
>>"Bloomdido" and "Ornithology" down ... Really hard work.
>>
>>Well anyway, I was playing these Parker solos in the rehearsal room
>>and my friend Roel (alto sax in the "Roel Penterman 4" I play in)
>>thought that was cool. "Hey, Dick, let's do them unisono and use them
>>as heads." The guy opened his omnibook, looked for the tunes and
>>played Ornithology just like that, sight reading his way through it.
>>After that "Bloomdido." Just like that. Without the blink of an eye,
>>leaving me in awe.
>>
>>And then it got worse. "Cool Dick, but let's use the ORIGINAL Bird
>>tempo's" AAAAAAARGH. Try playing Parker's solo on Bloomdido at 240 BPM
>>(let alone sight reading it) and you'll know what I mean. Same for
>>Ornithology ...
>>
>>Darned sight reading monster. It ain't fair ...
>>
>>And now I will have to play those solos in the original Parker tempos
>>unisono with sax (swallow).
>>
>>I guess I got what I deserved for showing off.
>>
>>Dick
>
>LOL. Horns read good, guitars read like piss. Been that way for the longest
>time(generally), nobody knows why.
Easier fingering on a horn. On a sax, Bb is Bb. On the guitar you can
have five or six options of how to finger it, plus you have to
calculate where the fingering for the next note is going to be. The
extra mental effort involved in just figuring out where to play a
particular Bb [they're everywhere!!!] is why guitarists have larger
brains than saxophone players. That makes us more intelligent and
better looking, too.
Spencer Seidel
face was really close to whatever it was. Anyway, this guy could read over
a piece like that for a few minutes and play it from memory just as quick.
It was quite a thing.
Spence
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:225a2455.02022...@posting.google.com...
NJD
8thfloormusic.com.nospam says...
> I knew a sax player who was legally blind, but he could see things if his
> face was really close to whatever it was. Anyway, this guy could read over
> a piece like that for a few minutes and play it from memory just as quick.
> It was quite a thing.
I love these kinds of stories.
Legend has it that like Mozart, Art Tatum could hear a piano piece once
and play it back verbatim, no matter how complex.
That's friggin' genius, with a capital G.
Anyone know if it's really true? I like to think that it is for some
reason.
--
Nick Delonas
"Friendlier than a consumer-electronics superstore."
Dave Tongay
players or the free swinging guitarists with the l-o-n-g neck? Yeah, Bird
couldn't walk down the street without getting propositioned from some fancy
lady in his heyday. However, Gene Simmons has had more than Bird ever
thought of (he's lived longer - that's his advantage). Still, that doesn't
help the sight reading monster attacks.
The rest of the gang is dead on in their assessment of a Bb being Bb on a
horn. Guitarists are dealing with the entire miniature orchestra effect.
<sigh> But look at the possibilities!
All I can say is practice, dude. Read everything and read often.
Dave
"Max Leggett" <NOSPAM...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3c7bfb5...@news.sprint.ca...
smooth
this group,
> I love these kinds of stories.
>
> Legend has it that like Mozart, Art Tatum could hear a piano piece once
> and play it back verbatim, no matter how complex.
>
> That's friggin' genius, with a capital G.
>
> Anyone know if it's really true? I like to think that it is for some
> reason.
I heard a story, you might enjoy, about a Gregorian song that some
way-back pope regarded as so extremely beautifull that he ordered not to
sing this piece in public any longer except for one day in the year, when
the Vatican Choir would sing it especially for him.
The story is that, despite of the banning of all the music sheets, the
music hit the streets when one of the Choir boys (a 10 year old kid) went
home and wrote the entire piece down straight out of his memory just
after singing it. The boy was Called Wolfgang A. Mozart.
regards,
--
Mike
http://muziek.clubs.nl/jazzgitaar
_________________________________________
'It's not that life is short, it's that you're dead so long'
-mail- smo...@jazz.nl
smooth
this group,
>
> Legend has it that like Mozart, Art Tatum could hear a piano piece once
> and play it back verbatim, no matter how complex.
>
> That's friggin' genius, with a capital G.
>
> Anyone know if it's really true? I like to think that it is for some
> reason.
I heard a story, you might enjoy, about a Gregorian song that some
way-back pope regarded as so extremely beautifull that he ordered not to
sing this piece in public any longer except for one day in the year, when
the Vatican Choir would sing it especially for him.
The story is that, despite of the banning of all the music sheets, the
music hit the streets when one of the Choir boys (a 10 year old kid) went
home after singing with the choir and wrote the entire piece down
straight out of his memory, just after singing it. The boy was Called
NJD
says...
> The story is that, despite of the banning of all the music sheets, the
> music hit the streets when one of the Choir boys (a 10 year old kid) went
> home after singing with the choir and wrote the entire piece down
> straight out of his memory, just after singing it. The boy was Called
> Wolfgang A. Mozart.
Mozart was amazing (to say the least).
ernesto
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c7bf7f0$1...@news.newsgroups.com...
>
> d.on...@chello.nl (Dick Onstenk) wrote:
> LOL. Horns read good, guitars read like piss. Been that way for the
longest
> time(generally), nobody knows why.
Robert Johnson knew why; the guitar is the devil's instrument
Joey Goldstein
material before?
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
NJD
says...
> Robert Johnson knew why; the guitar is the devil's instrument
It's pretty simple. There are so many ways to play the same passage on
the guitar.
If you choose the wrong position (not optimal), you might find yourself
in a bad spot later on.
Spencer Seidel
I saw this kid do it in a big band situation at school where people would
bring up their charts for the band to play and record for classes, etc. A
student composer would hand out the charts, they'd play it once or twice and
then shout "Next!" I suppose he could have seen a part or two previously,
but who knows. Either way, I was impressed :-)
Spence
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3C7C143C...@nowhere.net...
Joey Goldstein
Spencer Seidel wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if this was in reply to me, but...
>
> I saw this kid do it in a big band situation at school where people would
> bring up their charts for the band to play and record for classes, etc. A
> student composer would hand out the charts, they'd play it once or twice and
> then shout "Next!" I suppose he could have seen a part or two previously,
> but who knows. Either way, I was impressed :-)
Sure. Good horn players are good readers. But most good readers would
fall all over themselves sight reading Bird's solos at tempo without
ever having seen them before. I take it those big band charts did not
have lines as fast and furious as Bird's lines in the Omnibook. And good
luck finding a horn player who can read that well who has not already
spent quite a bit of time shedding the Omnibook.
BTW I was replying to the original post from Dick.
Thom j.
Joe Finn
Here in the States almost all guitarists currently playing jazz began as ear
players rather that sight readers. It's just too darned easy for a beginner
to pick up a cheap guitar and pick out the four or five chords needed to
cover 90% of the Springsteen songbook. Most guys can do this with or without
instructors, books, videos or what have you. Many beginners never see a need
to develop beyond this point. Others realize that there must be more to life
and seek instruction to help them develop their musicality and literacy to
higher levels. By the time they figure this however out the sax players
already have years of reading experience behind them.
Sax players [in this country anyway] are usually subjected to the public
school system music programs. These programs are far from perfect but the
strong emphasis on the literature and the reading does pay dividends. I've
told you about my son the alto player. Since he was seven he has been
reading music pretty much every day. He'll be 14 next week. Among his peers
he is considered an average sight reader but he is way better than the
average 14 year old guitar player. When I was 14 I couldn't read anything
but chord symbols.
So it's easy to see why sax players read better than guitar players. Some
guitar players say it's because the same tone on guitar can be found in more
than one place. If that's true why are violin players also better sight
readers than guitarists? The educational traditions with band and orchestra
instruments are really the main reason. The guitar has not always been
included in this tradition. The guitar has been viewed a "folk" instrument;
as in the opposite of a "legit" instrument. It's prominence within the pop
and rock styles has reinforced this view because these are closer to the
folk tradition as opposed to the conservatory tradition. I faced this
problem as a college student and in some ways the snobbery directed against
the guitar [and especially the electric guitar] is unfortunately still with
us.
Don't feel too bad about Roel though. For a lot of sax guys the Omnibook is
like their Bible. A lot of them have been playing out of it for years. You
did imply that he had been looking at his own copy. My guess is that he has
played through that stuff once or twice before.
...........joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Stan Gosnell
> LOL. Horns read good, guitars read like piss. Been that
> way for the longest time(generally), nobody knows why.
I suspect it's because horns (& piano, bowed strings, etc) start
learning to read from the first day they start lessons. It's
just natural. My daughter was forced to sight-read both piano &
cello, so she does it well. Most guitarists start learning
chords & play by ear. It's a matter of practice, more than
anything else, & most guitarists don't seem to practice sight-
reading that much. I know I certainly don't.
--
Regards,
Stan
Joe Finn
>
> Sure. Good horn players are good readers. But most good readers would
> fall all over themselves sight reading Bird's solos at tempo without
> ever having seen them before. I take it those big band charts did not
> have lines as fast and furious as Bird's lines in the Omnibook. And good
> luck finding a horn player who can read that well who has not already
> spent quite a bit of time shedding the Omnibook.
This is a good point. In my other post I mentioned that many sax players
regard the Omnibook as a real "source code" book for what they do. A lot of
them know the material pretty much by heart and can play it up to tempo
because they have done it before on several occasions. Anyone who could
sight read that sort of stuff at 265bpm would be a real killer.
There are a few guys like that out there but most of them aren't playing
guitars. 8-) ...........joe
duffy doherty
piano players too!
Duffy
"Max Leggett" <NOSPAM...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3c7bfb5...@news.sprint.ca...
> >
Nazodesu
<dto...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> The rest of the gang is dead on in their assessment of a Bb being Bb on a
> horn. Guitarists are dealing with the entire miniature orchestra effect.
> <sigh> But look at the possibilities!
It occured to me just today that if guitar was tuned either down a half
step or up a half step, reed and horn players would have embraced rock
and roll from the getgo.
Nazodesu
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> LOL. Horns read good, guitars read like piss. Been that way for the longest
> time(generally), nobody knows why.
I do. Horn players for the most part learned to play their instrument
in a band class with teacher. Guitar players are "true" folk musicians
picking up licks by ear from other players, off the radio, etc.
Doc
and transpose it to almost any key. He reads a C book all the time with a
Piano, flute, tenor sax, or alto sax.
Funny Story-When I was studding with Linc Chamberland back in the 80s we
got to talking about reading music. He said that he just looks at the
intervals between the notes and the duration of the notes so that the key is
irrelevant. Linc said Pick a song in any book here and I'll show you. So I
picked the hardest one I could find. He ripped that thing right off at about
240bpm then played a chord solo over it and then blew a wicked way out jazz
line over it. Of coarse I said oh sure you already knew that tune. Linc
picked up the book and turned it upside down and proceeded to do the whole
set backwards. I knew then he must be on to something.
--
Doc
Remove NoSpam to respond
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:225a2455.02022...@posting.google.com...
Lawren
> I'm not sure if this was in reply to me, but...
>
> I saw this kid do it in a big band situation at school where people would
> bring up their charts for the band to play and record for classes, etc. A
> student composer would hand out the charts, they'd play it once or twice and
> then shout "Next!" I suppose he could have seen a part or two previously,
> but who knows. Either way, I was impressed :-)
>
> Spence
>
I've seen lots of these stories (true, I believe) about classical
composers who couldn't afford to buy the music for them and their
friends to play (or it wasn't even published). The friends would all
pitch in and but one ticket to a concert for their buddy (the genius),
who would learn the piece, including all the parts, just from
listening to it once at the concert, and then come out and write out
all the parts to a symphony, etc. Bridge players like the great Goren
were also able to recall every single card in every hand (all four
hands at the table), what the bidding was, and how the cards were
played, for an entire tournament! Freshman year in college I knew a
musical genius - you could put a piano piece in front of him that he
never saw before (a hard one). He'd play it once. You closed the book,
and he'd play it from memory. He dropped out - bored, I guess!
Lawren.
June Kim
I have a different story.
I guess when most of you guys started to play guitar first,
you probably might have learned some easy open voicing chords like Am, Em,
Dm7, G7 etc.
But for me, because I started a classical guitar from the beginning,
I learned the notes on each strings and I didn't really know about chords.
When I started to learn jazz last year, I couldn't even play simple Maj7 or
m7b5 chords with a guitar but playing melodies in real book was pretty easy.
Think about this, if you only read and play it for several years, it could
not be so hard to read music.
But jazz is not what we can enjoy by just reading and there are bunch of
freaking players who can not read music at all.
I'm having so much trouble to memorize chords and improvise even though I
have enough technic and theory.
a wandering frank
"smooth" <smo...@jazz.nl> wrote in message
news:MPG.16e62beea...@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
> on Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:25:22 GMT, NJD <del...@NOSPAMcultv.com> posted in
> this group,
> > I love these kinds of stories.
> >
> > Legend has it that like Mozart, Art Tatum could hear a piano piece once
> > and play it back verbatim, no matter how complex.
> >
> > That's friggin' genius, with a capital G.
> >
> > Anyone know if it's really true? I like to think that it is for some
> > reason.
>
> I heard a story, you might enjoy, about a Gregorian song that some
> way-back pope regarded as so extremely beautifull that he ordered not to
> sing this piece in public any longer except for one day in the year, when
> the Vatican Choir would sing it especially for him.
> The story is that, despite of the banning of all the music sheets, the
> music hit the streets when one of the Choir boys (a 10 year old kid) went
> home after singing with the choir and wrote the entire piece down
> straight out of his memory, just after singing it. The boy was Called
> Wolfgang A. Mozart.
Mozart apparently did that in April 1770 when he was 14, not ten. He was
also not singing in the choir AFAIK, but rather on a visit to the pope with
his father, having spent the previous few years bopping around from Paris to
Salzburg (mostly Central Europe) being shown off as a child prodigy. See
http://www.mozartproject.org/biography/ch_66_70.html plus some of the other
bio pages at that site.
It's just a short blurb in a calendar and not clear if the piece (Allegri's
"Miserere") was restricted by the pope or not.
That's what you can dig up on a two minute Google search. :)
Frank
Tom Walls
says...
fingerings. I assume this is true with other reeds and horns, as well.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Dave Tongay
I've been back and forth with Classical and Jazz so I know of what you
speak. You receive some of the most amazing chords in your Classical work
but never get to know the "name" of the chord. We, as classical guitarists
form these chords by rote (as written and committed to memory), at first,
then store them in our databanks where we can eventually dredge them up
again should the often remote opportunity occur in other pieces. Jazz
chords, on the other hand, are mostly relegated the role of voicing chords
that accompany a melody line. Only when the two are styles are merged into
the chord solo can they be considered symbiotic in their relationship. This
duality has lead to some very interesting arrangements and performances by
artists (Earl Klugh comes to mind - a very classical jazz artist). That's
the beauty of it all when you can fuse the two "styles" (this may not be the
right word) together and create a true classic jazz arrangement. To me, the
term classical is just that, a term. Jazz, the same. What it's all about
is music. Mozart would have been a killer jazz cat. I believe Beethoven
would have been a total monster if he had only known the possibilities.
There are some very good books out there that can help you deal with this
sort of thing. Arnie Berl's "Modern Jazz Guitar Chords and Progressions"
(going from memory, here) is a very good example and very helpful. The book
title may be off but Berl's name isn't. Also, The Praxis system developed
by Howard Roberts and Garry Hagberg, "Guitar Compendium" in three volumes
has been an immense help and deals directly with many of your difficulties.
The troubleshooting guides are invaluable and will always make you think.
Play on.
Dave
To
"June Kim" <juneg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:diYe8.7778$QB1.2...@typhoon3.we.ipsvc.net...
Tom Walls
mit...@TAKETHISOUTearthlink.net says...
snip
> Mozart apparently did that in April 1770 when he was 14, not ten. He was
> also not singing in the choir AFAIK, but rather on a visit to the pope with
> his father, having spent the previous few years bopping around from Paris to
> Salzburg (mostly Central Europe) being shown off as a child prodigy. See
> http://www.mozartproject.org/biography/ch_66_70.html plus some of the other
> bio pages at that site.
This really happened, but it wasn't Mozart, it was Johnny Cash. And he
wasn't 14; he was 45. And he wasn't visiting the Pope; he was doing the
laundry.
Joe Finn
the way most American guitarists learn their instruments
It reminds me of the old gag about the new bass student. He gets home from
his first lesson on Monday and his Dad asks "How was the lesson?". The
student replies, "Great! We learned the notes on the first string!". After
he gets home from the second lesson on Tuesday his Dad asks again "How was
the lesson?" and the student replies "Great! We learned the notes on the
second string!". After he gets home from the third lesson on Wednesday his
Dad asks again "How was the lesson today?" and the student replies "Great!
We learned the notes on the third string!". When the student gets home on
Thursday his Dad asks again "How was the lesson?" . The student replies, "
The lesson will have to be rescheduled, Dad. I had a gig tonight!"
The other side of this has to do with your comment about chord symbols. I
got a guitar student of mine a spot in a pit band for a local production of
The Wiz. The band is mostly teenage students and a few adults. I heard the
pianist got fired. It turned out that she was basically a classical student.
She had never seen a D-7 in her life so they had to replace her.
I teach both chord symbols and notation. Neglecting one or the other is a
mistake. ....joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
"June Kim" <juneg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:diYe8.7778$QB1.2...@typhoon3.we.ipsvc.net...
>
Max Leggett
>got a guitar student of mine a spot in a pit band for a local production of
>The Wiz. The band is mostly teenage students and a few adults. I heard the
>pianist got fired. It turned out that she was basically a classical student.
>She had never seen a D-7 in her life so they had to replace her.
>
>I teach both chord symbols and notation. Neglecting one or the other is a
>mistake. ....joe
My sister teaches theory at the Music Academy. All classical stuff, of
course, but there's an addition this year - she's now teaching chord
symbols on the theory that they'll be useful for a working musician. I
found out when I got a panicky phone call, midday, about how to
differentiate in the notation between Cb 6 and C b6. So the classsical
academies are coming 'round.
Mike Healy
Nazodesu <222...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>It occured to me just today that if guitar was tuned either down a half
>step or up a half step, reed and horn players would have embraced rock
>and roll from the getgo.
I dunno, an awful lot of rock has been played tuned down a half step.
Mike Healy
JM
for that matter. A lot is given to them in
chord charts, Tab, etc Not many guitar teachers try to push it either.
It is my *opinion* that guitar pedagogue is light years behind other
instruments. This is why I believe the
lack of ability to sightread even simple one line peices.
I ran into a bass player who was in a store, and we got to talking. He's
just now learning to read music. He mentioned that after years of playing
bass, he could kick himself for not learning how to read early on. He' just
now realizing the vast amount of music is available to him. To play, and
learn from.
Stan Gosnell <bh412ni...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91C1C1858A558s...@204.52.135.10...
Dick Onstenk
> Are you sure he was "sight" reading and that he has never seen that
> material before?
Mmmm ... not absolutely sure of course. After all, he did own the
Omnibook.
But I have seen him perform weird sight reading tricks earlier. For
instance, he is able to read charts from my C Real Book, while
obvioulsy his alto sax requires a different key. He is able to read
and play music and transpose on sight while doing it!
He studied at the Hilversum Conservatory (with one of Europe's finest
tenors Ferdinand Povel) so it may not be that unusual that he is a
fine reader ...
Dick
Paul Sanwald
read a lot of bach in the movable clefs, as well as a lot of bass
clef. makes reading Bb parts a lot easier.
if someone ever hands you an Eb part (for alto sax), just pretend it's
in bass clef and you're golden. I just realized this the other day,
but then again I'm sort of slow :).
--paul
On 27 Feb 2002 13:22:34 -0800, d.on...@chello.nl (Dick Onstenk)
wrote:
Lawren
Q: How do you get a guitar player to stop playing?
A: Put music in front of him.
Thom j.
"Mike Healy" <he...@nosc.mil> wrote in message
news:a5j6er$jft$1...@poisson.nosc.mil...
a wandering frank
"Tom Walls" <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.16e6c61aa...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
> In article <doZe8.19201$0C1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> mit...@TAKETHISOUTearthlink.net says...
> snip
>
> > Mozart apparently did that in April 1770 when he was 14, not ten. He
was
> > also not singing in the choir AFAIK, but rather on a visit to the pope
with
> > his father, having spent the previous few years bopping around from
Paris to
> > Salzburg (mostly Central Europe) being shown off as a child prodigy.
See
> > http://www.mozartproject.org/biography/ch_66_70.html plus some of the
other
> > bio pages at that site.
>
>
> This really happened, but it wasn't Mozart, it was Johnny Cash. And he
> wasn't 14; he was 45. And he wasn't visiting the Pope; he was doing the
> laundry.
Aw, damn, you're right. Upon further investigation, the site address is
actually a disguised link to the Man in Black, of whose compositions Emperor
Joseph II once complained, "Too many D chords" before taking the country
singer prodigy for some royal recreation backstage, only to find out to his
chagrin that Sue was a boy.
cheers,
Frank
Dan Adler
> Well anyway, I was playing these Parker solos in the rehearsal room
> and my friend Roel (alto sax in the "Roel Penterman 4" I play in)
> thought that was cool. "Hey, Dick, let's do them unisono and use them
> as heads." The guy opened his omnibook, looked for the tunes and
> played Ornithology just like that, sight reading his way through it.
> After that "Bloomdido." Just like that. Without the blink of an eye,
> leaving me in awe.
I convinced myself at some point that the real reason to learn to
sight-read is not in order to be viewed as a pro, but for a completely
different reason:
When you sight-read what you are doing is transferring information
from the written page to your fingers with as little delay as
possible. Now, to me, that's half the battle of improvisation. The
other (bigger?) half is to concieve the line and hear it. I think of
it as driving the fingers from another source: for reading the source
is the page, and for improv the source is what I sing.
To make sight-reading useful in this way. I try to take my conscious
brain completely out of the equation. So, I sit and read, and (since I
can't watch TV while reading) I... talk out loud to myself. I tell
myself about my day, discuss deep philosophical thoughts, and other
things usually reserved for the shower. Then, I try to read in a
pretty snappy tempo and completely ignore mistakes - just keep going
and think about something else. The idea is just to drive the fingers
from what's on the page. I gave up thinking about positions or
anything like that - I just grab it as it comes. Do that for a while
and you will see some nice results.
Joe Finn
> I convinced myself at some point that the real reason to learn to
> sight-read is not in order to be viewed as a pro, but for a completely
> different reason:
>
> When you sight-read what you are doing is transferring information
> from the written page to your fingers with as little delay as
> possible. Now, to me, that's half the battle of improvisation. The
> other (bigger?) half is to concieve the line and hear it. I think of
> it as driving the fingers from another source: for reading the source
> is the page, and for improv the source is what I sing.
>
> To make sight-reading useful in this way. I try to take my conscious
> brain completely out of the equation. So, I sit and read, and (since I
> can't watch TV while reading) I... talk out loud to myself. I tell
> myself about my day, discuss deep philosophical thoughts, and other
> things usually reserved for the shower. Then, I try to read in a
> pretty snappy tempo and completely ignore mistakes - just keep going
> and think about something else. The idea is just to drive the fingers
> from what's on the page. I gave up thinking about positions or
> anything like that - I just grab it as it comes. Do that for a while
> and you will see some nice results.
>
than typing. If you were typing from a hand written manuscript you would
simply look at the letter "m" on the page and then hit the letter "m" on the
keyboard. I don't like to complicate it much beyond this. Especially not for
guitar players. A lot of guitar players start out as self taught and they
sometimes make things more difficult than they really are.
The other tip about reading music is that it is a lot like reading aloud in
front of a group of people. When doing this your eyes will read ahead of the
words you articulate. This allows the speaker to use phrasing and breathing
that is consistent with the ideas on the page. Just like music.
I also like your idea about the reason for reading music. To me the reason
is to enhance or facilitate communication with other players. The other
thing is that there is a wealth of music out there that is not available on
recordings. It would be awfully tough to learn this stuff if you couldn't
read it. .....joe
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Doc
it's already close and can play it right off. This kind of preloads the
brain and if your head knows how it goes it's easer to improv over it.
--
Doc
Remove NoSpam to respond
"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
news:820e87.020228...@posting.google.com...
JM
Get this book:
Super Sight-Reading Secrets
It's geared for keybaord, but you can easisy apply the method, and exercises
to guitar or any instrument. the book can help you if you apply yourself.
http://www.soundfeelings.com/products/music_instruction/sight-reading.htm
I've seen other sighreading methods for guitar in my local store that start
simple, and then gets progressive
there are more coursed for guitar than keybaord even.
KNOW THE FRETBOARD without looking.
Be able to play scales anywhere on the fretboard
Know all your chords, (maj, min, dim, aug,) in Root, 1st , 2nd inversins.
If 7th chords do the 3rd inversion as well. several octaves.
know the treble clef. Bass clef if you play bass. know the notes on the
lines, and spaces. The music will tell you where to play what on the
fretboard
Read music *without* picking up your instrument. Take some reading material,
and just read the notes.
Use a metronome. When playing music. Continue no matter what. Start slow.
Start with simple pieces, and progress to harder music.
You can get piano or guitar lesson software that puts music on the
screen,and play with a metronome, and it keeps marching on, and turning the
page as you read.
Read at your instrument at least 10-20 minutes everyday. If you never do it
you will never get better at it.
.
The problem with most poor readers of any instrument, is that it's takes
time, and it's slow at fiirst you can get instant gratification other ways.
So the reading suffers.
Doc <doctor...@connix.com> wrote in message
news:uQDf8.4885$XW3.101...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
Nazodesu
Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
> > It occured to me just today that if guitar was tuned either down a half
> > step or up a half step, reed and horn players would have embraced rock
> > and roll from the getgo.
> >
> Actually, the inquisitive sax player can find many alternative
> fingerings. I assume this is true with other reeds and horns, as well.
Sure they can if they want the labor. Playing sax in E and A sucks.
Nazodesu
wrote:
If most of those early tunes WERE tuned down, if playing with a guitar
was routine and easy for horns and reeds, there would have been more of
it going on. That was the thought anyway.
Tom Walls
> >
> Very interesting observations, Dan. I see reading as no more complicated
> than typing. If you were typing from a hand written manuscript you would
> simply look at the letter "m" on the page and then hit the letter "m" on the
> keyboard. I don't like to complicate it much beyond this. Especially not for
> guitar players. A lot of guitar players start out as self taught and they
> sometimes make things more difficult than they really are.
>
That's pretty much the way I see it. About a month ago someone here
asked whether folks read a sequence of notes and reached for the notes,
or did they interpret the notes as intervals and then play them. I was
surprised to be the only one who said I just reach for the note.
Naturally I realize what the interval is between various notes, and I
quickly recognize a scale run or an arpeggio, and I know where these
things lay in the various positions, but I don't really pause to consider
that.
So, tell me, is analysis of the score something you're doing as you read?
snip
The other
> thing is that there is a wealth of music out there that is not available on
> recordings. It would be awfully tough to learn this stuff if you couldn't
> read it. .....joe
This is my main motivation, but it also enables your writing if you're a
reader.
Nazodesu
Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
> > Very interesting observations, Dan. I see reading as no more complicated
> > than typing. If you were typing from a hand written manuscript you would
> > simply look at the letter "m" on the page and then hit the letter "m" on the
> > keyboard. I don't like to complicate it much beyond this.
I type a lot and I certainly don't look at the word "grocery" and type
a g, followed by the letter r, next up is the letter o, and so on. I
type the word grocery. I read music the same way. Though frequently a
musical component *is* a note or two, which I read as such. But at
times it is a figure of three, or four notes or a motif that lasts a
bar or two. After encountering it the first time or two it becomes a
motif that I'm reading, rather than a series of individual notes,
repeatedly parsed.
> > Especially not for
> > guitar players. A lot of guitar players start out as self taught and they
> > sometimes make things more difficult than they really are.
I sometimes hear this phrase, and don't know wht it means. Things seem
to me to be as difficult as they are. Learning them can be confusing,
but until you know what's not important they are as difficult for one
as another.
> That's pretty much the way I see it. About a month ago someone here
> asked whether folks read a sequence of notes and reached for the notes,
> or did they interpret the notes as intervals and then play them. I was
> surprised to be the only one who said I just reach for the note.
> Naturally I realize what the interval is between various notes, and I
> quickly recognize a scale run or an arpeggio, and I know where these
> things lay in the various positions, but I don't really pause to consider
> that.
Not any more no, but surely at one time you "paused to consider" or
analyze the situation. Having done it as much as you have by now, there
is no need to pause to consider, anymore than there would be in
shifting gears in a car; it is no longer a cognitive process.
Tom Walls
says...
> In article <MPG.16e9603eb...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, Tom
> Walls <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote:
>
Just for the record, the first two quotes should be attributed to Joe.
--
Joe Finn
>
> I type a lot and I certainly don't look at the word "grocery" and type
> a g, followed by the letter r, next up is the letter o, and so on. I
> type the word grocery. I read music the same way. Though frequently a
> musical component *is* a note or two, which I read as such. But at
> times it is a figure of three, or four notes or a motif that lasts a
> bar or two. After encountering it the first time or two it becomes a
> motif that I'm reading, rather than a series of individual notes,
> repeatedly parsed.
I use this over simplified explanation to illustrate how easy it is. With
experience people type and read music more like the way you describe it.
>
> > > Especially not for
> > > guitar players. A lot of guitar players start out as self taught and
they
> > > sometimes make things more difficult than they really are.
>
> I sometimes hear this phrase, and don't know what it means. Things seem
> to me to be as difficult as they are. Learning them can be confusing,
> but until you know what's not important they are as difficult for one
> as another.
What I mean is that a lot of self taught musicians find themselves in the
position of having to reinvent the wheel. In the course of this sort of
reinvention they inevitably complicate things unnecessarily and turn easy
things into problems. Of course it's possible to learn music without a
teacher but a good instructor can save you from taking the long way around.
This can save you years of unnecessary struggle. ......joe
Joe Finn
> So, tell me, is analysis of the score something you're doing as you read?
Sure. Being a musician means that you are into the music on a deeper level
than the layman. You learn to approach things on a more analytical basis not
only in terms of reading but in listening, writing, and performing too.
..........joe
--
Tom Walls
> "Tom Walls" <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote
> > So, tell me, is analysis of the score something you're doing as you read?
>
> Sure. Being a musician means that you are into the music on a deeper level
> than the layman. You learn to approach things on a more analytical basis not
> only in terms of reading but in listening, writing, and performing too.
> ..........joe
Well, the layman isn't going to even look at score. I guess I was
unclear. What I'm really trying to find out is whether I'm the only
guitarist in the world who sees a middle Eb, followed by an F, followed
by a Bb, and therefore reaches for the most convenient Eb, followed by
the most convenient F, followed by the most convenient Bb -- which is
IMHO akin to typing -- RATHER than immediately interpreting it as a whole
step, followed by a fourth, and transposing it to a position. I am, of
course, effectively doing this anyhow.
But, if you're not as transfixed by this question as I am, I'll
understand.
Joe Finn
>
> Well, the layman isn't going to even look at score. I guess I was
> unclear. What I'm really trying to find out is whether I'm the only
> guitarist in the world who sees a middle Eb, followed by an F, followed
> by a Bb, and therefore reaches for the most convenient Eb, followed by
> the most convenient F, followed by the most convenient Bb -- which is
> IMHO akin to typing -- RATHER than immediately interpreting it as a whole
> step, followed by a fourth, and transposing it to a position. I am, of
> course, effectively doing this anyhow.
>
It's a pretty fine point. When you look at the tones themselves you are also
looking at the intervals. It's like that picture of a black vase that also
portrays two symmetrical white profiled faces looking at each other.
BTW, President Truman was well known for attending concerts with a score in
his lap on which he would follow along. ...joe
Bob Russell
at tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu wrote on 3/1/02 1:27 PM:
> What I'm really trying to find out is whether I'm the only
> guitarist in the world who sees a middle Eb, followed by an F, followed
> by a Bb, and therefore reaches for the most convenient Eb, followed by
> the most convenient F, followed by the most convenient Bb -- which is
> IMHO akin to typing -- RATHER than immediately interpreting it as a whole
> step, followed by a fourth, and transposing it to a position.
No, Tom, you're not the only one. I see 'em; I play 'em. I save the analysis
for later. A split second after I play something, I might think "that was a
tritone" or whatever. While I'm sight-reading, I'm looking ahead a little
bit at the overall shape and direction of the line, but nothing more
detailed than that.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.uncwil.edu/people/russellr
Chris Leamy
> his lap on which he would follow along. ...joe
Wow! That's pretty cool. Shit, that made me think of Clinton and how he
played the sax. I don't remember how good/bad he was, though. Anyone?
chris
Bob Russell
Chris Leamy at cle...@ccs.neu.edu wrote on 3/1/02 2:07 PM:
Ol' Harry played the piano; how well he played it, I don't know.
IIRC, he was also known for getting upset when his daughter's vocal recitals
got unfavorable reviews.
Joe Finn
news:B8A53CC9.185%bobru...@ec.rr.com...
> in article MPG.16e991ffd...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu,
>
> I see 'em; I play 'em. I save the analysis
> for later. A split second after I play something, I might think "that was
a
> tritone" or whatever. While I'm sight-reading, I'm looking ahead a little
> bit at the overall shape and direction of the line, but nothing more
> detailed than that.
>
My son and I work out of the real book together on a regular basis. He plays
out of a Bb or Eb book and I just follow along. Now I know the material
pretty much any way but when I read the chord symbols on something I'm not
too familiar with I am really reading the function like ii-V7-I rather than
the name of the chord.
On melodies it's not as easy for me to transpose on sight. .....joe
Tom Lippincott
>No, Tom, you're not the only one. I see 'em; I play 'em. I save the analysis
>for later. A split second after I play something, I might think "that was a
>tritone" or whatever. While I'm sight-reading, I'm looking ahead a little
>bit at the overall shape and direction of the line, but nothing more
>detailed than that.
>
>-- Bob Russell
I'd consider myself a pretty good reader (by guitar player standards, anyway,
I'm piss poor by sax player standards, to be sure), and I do both. Sometimes
I'll see a cluster of notes and if it's a familiar group of notes, say, a Dm7
arpeggio, I'll immediately see it as one clump, or "shape" or "set of
intervals" or whatever. Other times if the notes are presented in less
familiar combinations I'll think of them as individual notes, one after the
other; a C, a G#, then an F#, ect. I also think I learned to read rhythms the
same way. Jack Petersen at North Texas used to have all of these "rhythm
exercises" which were somewhat of a similar concept to what's used in the
Berklee "Melodic Rhythms for Guitar" book; you sort of found every possible
rhythm using swing eighth notes in a two beat interval and began to memorize
what those different patterns looked and sounded like, so that you could
immediately recognize the rhythmic group as one "sound" rather than having to
sit and count "one two AND" or whatever.
We worked a lot on swing rhythms and his comment was always "for funk rhythms,
just double everything up as sixteenth notes" but I was lazy of course and
never spent much time on my own with that so I've always been weaker at reading
"funk" or 16th note rhythms.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Tom Walls
> "Tom Walls" <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote in message
> news:MPG.16e991ffd...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
> >
> > Well, the layman isn't going to even look at score. I guess I was
> > unclear. What I'm really trying to find out is whether I'm the only
> > guitarist in the world who sees a middle Eb, followed by an F, followed
> > by a Bb, and therefore reaches for the most convenient Eb, followed by
> > the most convenient F, followed by the most convenient Bb -- which is
> > IMHO akin to typing -- RATHER than immediately interpreting it as a whole
> > step, followed by a fourth, and transposing it to a position. I am, of
> > course, effectively doing this anyhow.
> >
>
> It's a pretty fine point. When you look at the tones themselves you are also
> looking at the intervals. It's like that picture of a black vase that also
> portrays two symmetrical white profiled faces looking at each other.
>
>
> BTW, President Truman was well known for attending concerts with a score in
> his lap on which he would follow along. ...joe
>
This used to be quite popular with audiences for classical music. I
remember when I was a kid attending a class for music appreciation
wherein we were instructed to wave an imaginary conductor's baton as we
listened to music.
Tom Walls
tomli...@aol.comnospam says...
> >
> >No, Tom, you're not the only one. I see 'em; I play 'em. I save the analysis
> >for later. A split second after I play something, I might think "that was a
> >tritone" or whatever. While I'm sight-reading, I'm looking ahead a little
> >bit at the overall shape and direction of the line, but nothing more
> >detailed than that.
> >
> >-- Bob Russell
>
> I'd consider myself a pretty good reader (by guitar player standards, anyway,
> I'm piss poor by sax player standards, to be sure), and I do both. Sometimes
> I'll see a cluster of notes and if it's a familiar group of notes, say, a Dm7
> arpeggio, I'll immediately see it as one clump, or "shape" or "set of
> intervals" or whatever. Other times if the notes are presented in less
> familiar combinations I'll think of them as individual notes, one after the
> other; a C, a G#, then an F#, ect.
I'm astigmatic and it's gotten much worse as I've grown older. Sometimes
I'm confronted with an unusually voiced chord or maybe something notated
high above or below the staff, and I'm just stopped dead in my tracks.
In the last year I've taken to wearing reading glasses whenever I'm going
to seriously play, otherwise I'll get eye strain just viewing the neck of
the guitar.
I also think I learned to read rhythms the
> same way. Jack Petersen at North Texas used to have all of these "rhythm
> exercises" which were somewhat of a similar concept to what's used in the
> Berklee "Melodic Rhythms for Guitar" book; you sort of found every possible
> rhythm using swing eighth notes in a two beat interval and began to memorize
> what those different patterns looked and sounded like, so that you could
> immediately recognize the rhythmic group as one "sound" rather than having to
> sit and count "one two AND" or whatever.
They used a similar method at Indiana University, wherein they used the
term "gestalt" to refer to the various rhythmic and melodic figures.
Max Leggett
>> "Tom Walls" <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote
>> > So, tell me, is analysis of the score something you're doing as you read?
>>
>> Sure. Being a musician means that you are into the music on a deeper level
>> than the layman. You learn to approach things on a more analytical basis not
>> only in terms of reading but in listening, writing, and performing too.
>> ..........joe
>
>Well, the layman isn't going to even look at score. I guess I was
>unclear. What I'm really trying to find out is whether I'm the only
>guitarist in the world who sees a middle Eb, followed by an F, followed
>by a Bb, and therefore reaches for the most convenient Eb, followed by
>the most convenient F, followed by the most convenient Bb -- which is
I bet ten bucks that if you see G Bb D F you recognise the shape and
have at least two grips ready made.
>IMHO akin to typing -- RATHER than immediately interpreting it as a whole
>step, followed by a fourth, and transposing it to a position. I am, of
>course, effectively doing this anyhow.
When I'm sight reading I often see the interval, but it's shapes that
I recognise. I know what a major triad looks like, and I recognise the
shape of a minor ninth chord, too. For melodic stuff I read the notes,
but there are an awful lot of shapes that give us major clues. By
shapes, of course, I mean the shape of the notes on the page,
ascending, descending, where the white spaces are, the lines, what
have you..
Tom Walls
says...
I says:
What I'm really trying to find out is whether I'm the only
> >guitarist in the world who sees a middle Eb, followed by an F, followed
> >by a Bb, and therefore reaches for the most convenient Eb, followed by
> >the most convenient F, followed by the most convenient Bb -- which is
>
> I bet ten bucks that if you see G Bb D F you recognise the shape and
> have at least two grips ready made.
>
>
So true. My left hand is pretty much permanently curled into a G B D F#
shape. It's become painfully obvious that there is about 2 cents
difference between these two perspectives.
Max Leggett
>says...
>
>I says:
>
>What I'm really trying to find out is whether I'm the only
>> >guitarist in the world who sees a middle Eb, followed by an F, followed
>> >by a Bb, and therefore reaches for the most convenient Eb, followed by
>> >the most convenient F, followed by the most convenient Bb -- which is
>>
>> I bet ten bucks that if you see G Bb D F you recognise the shape and
>> have at least two grips ready made.
>>
>>
>So true. My left hand is pretty much permanently curled into a G B D F#
>shape. It's become painfully obvious that there is about 2 cents
>difference between these two perspectives.
>
Bob Russell
at tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu wrote on 3/1/02 3:45 PM:
> It's become painfully obvious that there is about 2 cents
> difference between these two perspectives.
Yeah, I never really even think about it, to tell the truth. Sometimes I see
a shape coming up and think "Gm7"; mostly I'm just looking ahead for
potential trouble.
I guess a lot probably depends on tempo; at 60 bpm, you've got more time to
get philosophical than at 320 bpm. (Of course, at 320 bpm, I'm looking at
the sax player and saying "Take it away".) ;)
Max Leggett
Nazodesu
wrote:
> What I mean is that a lot of self taught musicians find themselves in the
> position of having to reinvent the wheel. In the course of this sort of
> reinvention they inevitably complicate things unnecessarily and turn easy
> things into problems. Of course it's possible to learn music without a
> teacher but a good instructor can save you from taking the long way around.
> This can save you years of unnecessary struggle.
It's a double-bladed axe. Certainly having a teacher keep you from the
pitfalls and show you all the good and proper ways to do things, avoid
confusing you with things the teacher considers unimportant--all of
this could make the learning process less bumpy. On the other hand
really different artists come about as a result of analyzing things
others do not and inventing processes, long ago refined, for their own
purpose.
Remember that most teachers have a way of teaching students to play the
way they think the instrument should be played. And we've all known
teachers who had distorted perspectives of such matters...
Thom j.
"Chris Leamy" <cle...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.020301...@denali.ccs.neu.edu...
Thom j.
of the reviewers and his political side'kicks gave him a hard
time about it but Harry was his own man, Whether Right or
Wrong that was Harry..
"Bob Russell" <bobru...@ec.rr.com> wrote in message
news:B8A53F46.18A%bobru...@ec.rr.com...
a wandering frank
"Thom j." <thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:AOSf8.14004$nz4.1...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> Gee I thought Monica played his...
Skin flute?
> oops I cant say that here... :)
Sure you can! :)
MakeoverMonica was on Larry King last night. Funny how she seems
simultaneously more intelligent and more ditzy than I remember from a few
years ago...
But since she was making no sense, I flipped the channel and went back to
working chord voicings...
Frank
a wandering frank
"Max Leggett" <NOSPAM...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3c7ff0fa...@news.sprint.ca...
> Bob Russell wrote:
> >in article MPG.16e9b26d9...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu, Tom
Walls
> >at tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu wrote on 3/1/02 3:45 PM:
> >
> >I guess a lot probably depends on tempo; at 60 bpm, you've got more time
to
> >get philosophical than at 320 bpm. (Of course, at 320 bpm, I'm looking at
> >the sax player and saying "Take it away".) ;)
> >
> At 320 I'm seriously thinking of a Trappiste
Man, I nearly forgot to tell you guys...A few days ago I discovered a local
bar has a few Trappistes on the menu, and two nights ago I resolved to
indulge in a Rochefort Trappiste 10.
Recovering from the artificially induced concussion on the back of my head
from contacting the back edge of the booth in a fit of ecstatic loss of
motor control, the only thing I didn't get is how my colleagues could insist
that the Rochefort 8 was better because it was sweeter.
Anyway, kindly avert your eyes next time you drive through my local burg, as
I have no better way to fund those outrageously expensive little devils
brewed in righteous sanctums of Christianity, other than by selling myself
on street corners. I'm sure Jesus would understand, considering how long
all the libations at the Last Supper must have taken, and in any case, I'm
betting he'll hold Max responsible for the constant reminders. I wonder if
there's a circle of Hell for those who induce vicarious gluttony in
others... :)
cheers,
Frank
Bob Russell
wandering frank at mit...@TAKETHISOUTearthlink.net wrote on 3/1/02 6:32 PM:
> Man, I nearly forgot to tell you guys...A few days ago I discovered a local
> bar has a few Trappistes on the menu, and two nights ago I resolved to
> indulge in a Rochefort Trappiste 10.
>
> Recovering from the artificially induced concussion on the back of my head
> from contacting the back edge of the booth in a fit of ecstatic loss of
> motor control, the only thing I didn't get is how my colleagues could insist
> that the Rochefort 8 was better because it was sweeter.
>
> Anyway, kindly avert your eyes next time you drive through my local burg, as
> I have no better way to fund those outrageously expensive little devils
> brewed in righteous sanctums of Christianity, other than by selling myself
> on street corners. I'm sure Jesus would understand, considering how long
> all the libations at the Last Supper must have taken, and in any case, I'm
> betting he'll hold Max responsible for the constant reminders. I wonder if
> there's a circle of Hell for those who induce vicarious gluttony in
> others... :)
Frank, thanks for that heartwarming tale. Where'd you say that bar was? ;)
Thom j.
"a wandering frank" <mit...@TAKETHISOUTearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BWTf8.27033$ZC3.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Joe Finn
> This used to be quite popular with audiences for classical music. I
> remember when I was a kid attending a class for music appreciation
> wherein we were instructed to wave an imaginary conductor's baton as we
> listened to music.
Those were the days. .........joe
jaz...@webtv.net
Now you done it Dick. Expect future posts on how to remedy sore eyes
instead of hand pain.:)
Ron
Adam Bravo
(on piano, that is), I had a teacher for 4 years that taught me how to read,
technique, and general classical stuff, along with some elementary chord
theory.
Well, at the same time, and for a year after that when I had no teacher, I
was able to work on jazz. However, since I didn't have a teacher (or the
Internet), I had no idea about scales. Nobody told me that a lot of
(probably most) people think of scales when they're improvising lines. Well,
so I knew my elementary chord theory, and I spent time at the piano and
listened to CDs, and I found that I could get the sounds I wanted by using
chords, as I knew no other way.
Now, I see so many people getting confused over which scale to use and
things like that, and I sit back and almost laugh at how easy it is to
analyze things by breaking away from the scale thought mode. The musicians I
like seem to think outside the scale box. Now, I'm learning a bit more about
potential applications of scales (and I do use them), but I'm still glad I
know chords.
Now, what was the probability of me finding a teacher who happened to teach
that way? Very little. There are some that teach that way (I know Bob
Russell is one). However, I can't even find a good jazz piano teacher near
me anyway.
I can ask scale-based teachers about how to analyze things that I like
chordally. Most reasonable teachers are able to do that. However, most
teacher would have not taught me that if I had started jazz with them, for
whatever reason- it doesn't accurately express the ideas of artists they
like, or they just learned that way.
Anyway, just my $0.03.
"Nazodesu" <222...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:010320021354552534%222...@adelphia.net...
a wandering frank
Michael's Bistro, which is above Littlejohn's Deli (the door is set back a
bit on the left side next to the street), located in the area the UVa
students call "The Corner" in Charlottesville, VA. Only about 4 or so hours
from your neck of the woods, is my guess. They do pretty large portions of
food as well as a fairly wide array of mostly expensive but very good beers.
I usually stick with the draughts and pretend it's liquid bread.
Coincidentally, it's also the place I abused a couple times last year with
that student jazz small group I crashed.
I'll warn you though, the Trappistes there start at 7 clams and up. The
Rocheforts were 12 clams. Looks like I'm gonna have to hit the gym if I
have any hope of making that back on street corners...not exactly a graduate
student-friendly beer. :-7
But hey, if you're in the area and hope to find jazz, you can catch John
D'earth and his group/friends at Miller's (a bar on the "Downtown Mall",
which is sort of a semi-European-type pedestrian district about 1-2 miles
from Michael's) on Thursday nights, and Jeff Decker and Mike Rosensky's
quartet on Wednesday nights, same place. Not to mention several student
groups that are playing around in various places on various days.
In the more wide-ranging improv department, Greg Howard does his solo
Chapman stick thing on alternate Monday nights, also at Millers, when he's
in town, but check his website to be sure (www.greghoward.com) .
OK, time to stop being a tour guide and get some things done around the
house... :)
cheers,
Frank
Bob Russell
mra...@cox.net wrote on 3/2/02 10:18 AM:
> Now, what was the probability of me finding a teacher who happened to teach
> that way? Very little. There are some that teach that way (I know Bob
> Russell is one).
Hey, Adam, one thing I feel I should stress is that my approach changes with
the music. If you're talking bebop or standards, I'm definitely more
concerned with chords than scales. But there's a lot of modern music which
is scale-based by design; it was composed with the idea that a player would
use specific scales. You've got to have more than one way of looking at
things.
The thing about scale-based teaching that bothers me is that a lot of bad
teaching has resulted in people thinking that "scales are jazz". There's a
LOT more to it than knowing which scale to play over which chord.
Bob Russell
wandering frank at mit...@TAKETHISOUTearthlink.net wrote on 3/2/02 10:50 AM:
> Michael's Bistro, which is above Littlejohn's Deli (the door is set back a
> bit on the left side next to the street), located in the area the UVa
> students call "The Corner" in Charlottesville, VA. Only about 4 or so hours
> from your neck of the woods, is my guess.
Hmmmm... you know, I feel as though I've been neglecting Charlottesville
when I consider vacation plans. This sheds a whole new light on things. :)
a wandering frank
Hehehe. You know, we're only 30 minutes from the southern end of Shenandoah
Nat'l Park if that's your bag (warning, they're repaving roads and putting
in some drainage pipes, such that the first nine miles in on Skyline Drive
is currently sometimes under rough road/construction), and George Washington
Nat'l Forest south of there where I-64 goes over the mountains. Beautiful
area, although we're wayyy behind on rain at the moment, and that beetle
that's devastating the East Coast has not been kind on lots of trees in the
wilderness areas. A few wineries here and there. Oh, and don't pass up
Monticello off Rt. 53 if you like looking at how Thomas Jefferson-designed
architecture, as well as the Lawn and Rotunda in the historical center of
the University of Virginia. The Lawn is only five to ten minutes walk from
those Trappistes... :) Tip: if you make change at the Monticello visitor's
ticket office, you can get $2 bills with TJ's picture on them.
Oh...the entrance fee to Shenandoah is $10, $20 for a year round pass.
However, if you visit Nat'l Parks regularly in NC (like my old stomping
grounds, the Smokies), you might want to look into that "Golden Eagle" or
whatever it is pass that gets you in any park anywhere in the US for a year.
GW Nat'l Forest is free.
Frank
Paul Sanwald
my girlfriend's parents live over there, and we went to visit and the
most I ever paid for a beer was $1.50, and that was for a Orval.
plus, people are drinking beer pretty 24 hours a day there.
--paul
a wandering frank
30 to 80 US cents per pint of various wonderful things, if not Trappistes,
will leave you feeling exceedingly full after 12 PM on a weekend. Me, I
just can't face beer or Coke before lunchtime...
Frank
"Paul Sanwald" <pcsa...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:3c838ef4....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
a wandering frank
Frank
"Paul Sanwald" <pcsa...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:3c838ef4....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Bob Russell
wandering frank at mit...@TAKETHISOUTearthlink.net wrote on 3/4/02 11:44 AM:
> I forgot to mention, the Orval around here is 7 bucks. Ouch...
>
> Frank
At least you can buy Orval! Here in the progressive state of North Carolina,
it's illegal to sell beer that has an alcohol content above some arbitrary
limit like 6 percent. What purpose this serves, I'm not sure; I guess it
ensures that people after a hard-core buzz have to buy wine or liquor, both
of which are legal here. Go figure.
a wandering frank
*chuckle* Yeah, I remember running into the Carolina blue laws, but in
South C, at Myrtle. God forbid you should show up at the beach on a Sunday
and want to relax and party. Actually, isn't NC the originator-state of
those Brew-Throughs? I seem to recall spotting a few on the way back from
other trips to the Outer Banks. Kinda ironic, even arguably schizophrenic.
:)
In my native Tennessee, I've always been planning to check out the Jack
Daniels' distillery (and oddly, never have), because it's supposedly located
in a small dry county where population decline has somehow left them without
the possibility to get the needed number of votes (maybe there's a quorum
rule based on past census data?) to overturn Prohibition. :) So you can
allegedly manufacture, distribute and possibly even consume the stuff in the
ice cream they allegedly serve there, but you supposedly can't buy it. Of
course, that's all hearsay to me, so I really have to verify how dry that
county (Morgan?) is, as I find it hard to believe you can't buy it at the
distillery itself...
Anyway. I think NRBQ had it right, singin' about that Wacky Tobacky and the
attitudes of the authorities in certain Southern districts... :)
Frank
dirk
Its more like 20 or so.
Dirk
"Paul Sanwald" <pcsa...@pobox.com> schreef in bericht
news:3c838ef4....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
ros...@inet.net
<ddjazzREMOV...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Im from belgium and its not true we all drink about 24 hours a day.
>Its more like 20 or so.
>Dirk
Pissing the other 4.
Thom j.
Max Leggett
rather than Pabst Blue Ribbon, we'd have our priorities straight, too.
Tom Walls
says...
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Dick Onstenk
border is only 15 miles away from the Crow anyway.
Belgian Beers are the best! There's no way you can beat a Belgian in
that field.
Why don't you guys come over to the Crow and we'll have a huge
drinking orgy!
Dick
Paul Sanwald
On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 23:42:42 GMT, "Thom j." <thom_...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Paul, are you saying belgium'inites are drunks? :)
>
I meant that people don't see anything wrong with stopping in for a
beer after lunch, or anytime throughout the day. I don't see nearly as
many people in the states drinking in the afternoon. When I was there,
we had a beer with almost every meal.
Bob, that sucks that they don't sell Orval in NC. I thought they could
sell it, but couldn't call it "beer" or something. they sell it in ny
but it is prohibitively expensive (at least for me).
so, yes, they are a bunch of drunks. just kidding.
--paul
Thom j.
"Tom Walls" <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.16ee8eb33...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
Thom j.
I'll supply the "grapes" and you are welcome to supply the ladies..
Thom j.
been addressed but since so many have 'died' by drunk drivers
in the past years, I know many 'Laws have been tightened' here
in the US because of this..
Also the group "Surviving Mother's of drunk driving accidents"
{or something like this} are extremely powerful lobbyist in DC
so they call the shots on the %, Amount and now your alcohol
readings{.08} while behind the wheel, if stopped! & so it goes.
just more useless knowledge on my end..
"Paul Sanwald" <pcsa...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:3c85198e....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Max Leggett
>
>Man, I nearly forgot to tell you guys...A few days ago I discovered a local
>bar has a few Trappistes on the menu, and two nights ago I resolved to
>indulge in a Rochefort Trappiste 10.
>
>Recovering from the artificially induced concussion on the back of my head
>from contacting the back edge of the booth in a fit of ecstatic loss of
>motor control, the only thing I didn't get is how my colleagues could insist
>that the Rochefort 8 was better because it was sweeter.
>
>Anyway, kindly avert your eyes next time you drive through my local burg, as
>I have no better way to fund those outrageously expensive little devils
>brewed in righteous sanctums of Christianity, other than by selling myself
>on street corners. I'm sure Jesus would understand, considering how long
>all the libations at the Last Supper must have taken, and in any case, I'm
>betting he'll hold Max responsible for the constant reminders. I wonder if
>there's a circle of Hell for those who induce vicarious gluttony in
>others... :)
Forgive him, Lord, for he knoweth not what he doth. For yea, verily,
Trappiste is the Blessed Tipple of the Heavenly Host. In the words of
the Holy Ghost, I'll have another.