flat top guitars for jazz
Mark Cleary
group primarily uses a flat top? The reason I ask is that I had to do a
major repair the last few days on a flat top, was hit by falling over with a
split hole in the top. This cause a brace to fall off and after some cleats
and clamps I think it will reasonably be fine with very little cosmetic
issues. In any case it sure is easier to repair when you can get you whole
hand and arm on the guitar unlike f holes. I played the guitar a bit and
frankly I could not get any decent jazz tone but wonder if anyone here uses
a flat top as their main jazz box? I repair them all the time but never had
one from a jazz guitarist.
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Church
Tim McNamara
"Mark Cleary" <mcle...@comcast.net> wrote:
Joe Pass used a Martin flattop early on; I think you can even find a
photo online (with hair and everything).
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ‹ to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
sheetsofsound
paul bollenback uses one quite often for jazz, duo gigs, etc
John E. Golden
Check out Tony Rice's album "Unit of Measure." IMO, he gets a wonderful
jazzy sound on a Martin Dreadnaught.
Regards,
John E. Golden
jazzrat
stuff on a D-18.
Travis
My main guitar nowadays is a Goodall flat top. It's being used on "I
Hear a Rhapsody" on my channel.
--
Travis
Carl
player who defines the idiom of the guitar.
I always have to wonder why so many think that a particular idiom has to
have a standard sound or tone. What happens to jazz if it's not played
through an f-holed archtop with a clean amp? Is it not jazz anymore?
Btw, my first exposure to Julian Lage was with him playing gypsy jazz on his
1932 Gibson L-5. I was under the impression that the L-5 was his "defining"
guitar (if such a thing exists), but I do see he is oft associated with the
Manzer as well. Here's a neat example of him using that L-5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCfRFkaoKB8&feature=related
Bg
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPp5iHukYKA>
Bg
David J. Littleboy
"Bg" <ott...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Kenny Burrell with flat top
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPp5iHukYKA>
Here, too. Sure works for him...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ipftv39YU&feature=related
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Greger Hoel
<mcle...@comcast.net>:
I like Gabor Szabo's pre-archtop tone best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gkg7Uqdc7Go
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/
tom walls
When I first began participating in this newsgroup I was playing my
Martin D35. I played amplified and through various effects, and really
liked the way it sounded, but the only jazz player it resembled would
be Gabor Szabo. I gave up the ghost when I developed repetitive stress
problems in my fretting hand. I don't experience a problem playing it,
but it's more stress than my hands can tolerate, apparently.
Bob R.
Jonathan Kreisberg uses a flat-top quite a bit. His "Nightsongs" album
features his acoustic playing.
Tim McNamara
"Carl" <crot...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
> jazzrat wrote:
> > When he's not playing his Manzer archtop Julian Lage plays some
> > killer stuff on a D-18.
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTe-_8SZJ6Y
> >
> Which only seems to reinforce the idea that it's not the guitar, but
> the player who defines the idiom of the guitar.
>
> I always have to wonder why so many think that a particular idiom has
> to have a standard sound or tone. What happens to jazz if it's not
> played through an f-holed archtop with a clean amp? Is it not jazz
> anymore?
Hmm. Django Reinhardt. A flattish top anyway, and no one disputes his
playing as "jazz." FWIW when he came to the US to tour with Duke
Ellington he arrived sans guitarre, and discovered that he hated
American archtop guitars. He had a Maccaferri brought from France.
Dallas Selman
"Bg" <ott...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:72db916e-ad3e-4c8f...@l14g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Carl
> In article <4dad1922$0$13004$607e...@cv.net>,
> "Carl" <crot...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
>
>> jazzrat wrote:
>>> When he's not playing his Manzer archtop Julian Lage plays some
>>> killer stuff on a D-18.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTe-_8SZJ6Y
>>>
>> Which only seems to reinforce the idea that it's not the guitar, but
>> the player who defines the idiom of the guitar.
>>
>> I always have to wonder why so many think that a particular idiom has
>> to have a standard sound or tone. What happens to jazz if it's not
>> played through an f-holed archtop with a clean amp? Is it not jazz
>> anymore?
>
> Hmm. Django Reinhardt. A flattish top anyway, and no one disputes
> his playing as "jazz." FWIW when he came to the US to tour with Duke
> Ellington he arrived sans guitarre, and discovered that he hated
> American archtop guitars. He had a Maccaferri brought from France.
>
comment and reference to Django as an example, as far as I know, gypsy
guitars actually do have archtops, not flattops, though I agree they look
like flattops (probably because of the oval hole). The earliest
Maccaferri's, from the little I know, had a smaller arch (pliage?), but in
the later ones, the arch was increased.
However, at least one writer proclaims that Selmers were neither archtops
(because they weren't carved from one piece of wood???), nor flattops
(because gypsy tops are built with braces under tension - flattops often do
have a small arch, but it's not done by placing tension on the braces). You
can read his commentary here: http://www.lutherie.net/discussion2.html
Of course, his definition of what a true "archtop" is would eliminate all
laminated-top guitars. So, if we discount that part of his position, Selmer
style guitars ARE as much archtops as laminated top ones.
The story as I heard it about Django and his American experience, was a
little different than yours.
The version that I read goes that Django arrived in America without a
guitar, being the egotist he was known to be, expecting American
manufacturers to shower him with their guitars to try out. When no guitars
were offered him (to his dismay), he had to either buy one or send for his
own from back home.
Choose the folk-tale you like best... :-) or perhaps someone knows the
"historically correct" story, if such exists.
Carl
mean, why do they think the guitar-makers put their names there in the first
place? :-) Does anyone know what guitar he is playing? I couldn't catch the
name.
Carl
playing, partly for the reason you mentioned. Try switching down to a
000/OM sized guitar, or even a 00 model. You'll notice that Burell's guitar
is smaller-bodied.
I know of one guy who loved his OM Martin but is having a Custom Shop
version of the exact same guitar built for himself by Martin because
he wants the shorter scale length neck! Easier fingering and easier bends, I
guess. Different strokes.
JNugent
Didn't Gabor Szabo mainly use a Gibson jumbo with a DeArmond pickup across
the soundhole?
I've seen a few pro guitarists playing jazz on flat-top guitars over the
years - but usually Gibsons, with their warmer tone. My immediate conclusion
was that it was due to the high prices of equivalent archtop guitars - and
the difficulty of getting hold of them.
Bg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ipftv39YU&feature=related
>
> --
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan
All Blues, nice, he's smokin' along very nicely.
Bg
Tom Walls
>>
> A Dreadnaught style guitar might not be the best choice for this kind of
> playing, partly for the reason you mentioned. Try switching down to a
> 000/OM sized guitar, or even a 00 model. You'll notice that Burell's guitar
> is smaller-bodied.
>
> I know of one guy who loved his OM Martin but is having a Custom Shop
> version of the exact same guitar built for himself by Martin because
> he wants the shorter scale length neck! Easier fingering and easier bends, I
> guess. Different strokes.
>
>
I hear you, but, the thing is, I love to play this guitar, so I want to
play music that I love on it -- if that makes sense. I've got other
guitars I can play jazz on without the carpal tunnel aggravation.
paul
it enough to justify the purchase. the collings sound amazing, but are
quite pricey.
--paul
David J. Littleboy
I'm currently a fan of the Revival Acoustics guitars: I own a D-18 clone and
am thinking about the RG-33 OM-size instrument. They're nicely made, very
lightly built and resonant. And affordable: their most expensive instruments
go for US$600 to $750. You'll have to add your own electronics, though.
tom walls
I've got a Larrivee LV03R that I should probably get rid of. It's a
real versatile guitar, somewhere between an orchestra and dreadnaught
style. The V is for Venetian cutaway, the R for redwood. It was a non-
electric model that I sought out, because I hate having a big plastic
equalizer cut into a nice acoustic guitar. I had a Martin Goldline
pickup installed, instead. It's some kind of Fishman pickup. I've got
the same thing on my Martin and it does the job real good without the
plastic piece of shit. The 03 series is the Larrivee bottom end, but
it's the same guitar as the higher end with less ornamentation. It was
a manufacturer's second because of a tiny flaw in the finish -- which
is satin, not gloss -- I bought it brand new, it dirt cheap, with a
full warrantee. Anyway, if you check out the Larrivees, and like them,
I could give you a good price. I bought if for Irish fiddle music
fingerstyle, and since I started having trouble with my elbow
fingerstyle is out of the question. The guitar is good for flatpicking
too, it just doesn't have the mojo of my 40 year old D35(but what
does?).
Carl
they may not be 'ideal' or 'traditional' for the purpose. After I saw Julian
Lage play gypsy jazz with his Gibson L5, along with Frank Vignola, who used
a more traditional jazz box (a very expensive Parker), I realized there are
no rules.
GAS struck, and I searched for and found a Custom Shop '34 L5 after that
show, but I sure would like to own the real thing (don't think it's easy
finding a Reissue of these either- there seem to be very few around).
I'm sure many of you have seen this, but I thought I'd post it here for
those who didn't http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfqop_kmvQ0
Gerry
> I'm sure many of you have seen this, but I thought I'd post it here for
> those who didn't
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfqop_kmvQ0>
The both sound marvelous. I love the way Lage is constantly "reading"
Frank's playing while accompanying him.
--
-- At this point Sharazad saw the approach of morning and discreetly
fell silent.
Carl
> On 2011-04-21 08:19:38 -0700, Carl said:
>
>> I'm sure many of you have seen this, but I thought I'd post it here
>> for those who didn't
>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfqop_kmvQ0>
>
> The both sound marvelous. I love the way Lage is constantly "reading"
> Frank's playing while accompanying him.
>
and all improvised, though, of course, they may just be professional enough
to fool me... :-) I love the way a smile never leaves Lage's face. I think
it's great.
pmfan57
McLaughlin on Tony Williams Lifetime Emergency is using a flat top
with a pickup I believe. And also on Extrapolation I think. Gabor
Szabo is kind of like early JM in some ways.
David J. Littleboy
McLaughlin's My Goals Beyond is all flattop. And only flattop. And a great
album.
tom walls
Yeah, but it's an Ovation flattop. Not a real guitar. [tongue firmly
in cheek, he quickly dons a flameproof suit, and flees the room]
David J. Littleboy
"tom walls" <tomw...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 21, 6:09 pm, "David J. Littleboy" <davi...@gol.com> wrote:
>
> McLaughlin's My Goals Beyond is all flattop. And only flattop. And a great
> album.
Yeah, but it's an Ovation flattop. Not a real guitar. [tongue firmly
in cheek, he quickly dons a flameproof suit, and flees the room]
<<<<<<<<<<<
ROFL. I used to hate Ovations, too, but my brother in-law bought a cheap one
and glued a big sheet of green rubber onto that horrible slippery plastic
back where it sits on your knee, making it actually playable and a lot of
fun.
DanielleOM
> I know a number of great players have used them but wonder if any in
> the group primarily uses a flat top? The reason I ask is that I had
> to do a major repair the last few days on a flat top, was hit by
> falling over with a split hole in the top. This cause a brace to fall
> off and after some cleats and clamps I think it will reasonably be
> fine with very little cosmetic issues. In any case it sure is easier
> to repair when you can get you whole hand and arm on the guitar
> unlike f holes. I played the guitar a bit and frankly I could not get
> any decent jazz tone but wonder if anyone here uses a flat top as
> their main jazz box? I repair them all the time but never had one
> from a jazz guitarist.
> Deacon Mark Cleary
> Epiphany Church
Mark
I have an Eastman maple archback guitar (flattop guitar with carved back)
that I find has absolutely wonder trebles sound all of the way up the neck.
I find it wonderful to use for chord melody type work. There's some lower
mid range stuff going on that does not always thrill me.
I think highs actually sound better than my Eastman AR805 archtop.
I find I use the archtop most of the time. In small intimate situations I
often use the archtop unplugged / with a Shure Beta 57.
Although I play number of old standards and sing most of the type with a
little bit of chord melody work, I would certainly not call myself a jazz
guitarist from an melody improvisational point of view.
I have been hosting an acoustic open mic for about a year now in Windsor,
CT. It's been interesting to see how many flattops do need some of that
lower midrange eq'ed out to stop feedback or uncomfortable resonances.
Everyone once in a while I do find one that tends to work well with flat EQ.
I have just come to the conclusion that what works well for a parking lot
bluegrass player does not necessarily work well in front of a microphone.
Danielle
pmfan57
Yes. I was thinking of his "electric" playing using a flat top with a
pickup. I thought that was what we were discussing. Of course JM has
tons of stuff on acoustic generally, not least of which are MGB as
well as the three titanic Shakti albums.
pmfan57
Mine have rubber already there. Maybe it had fallen off.
David J. Littleboy
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 8:47 am, "David J. Littleboy" <davi...@gol.com> wrote:
>
> ROFL. I used to hate Ovations, too, but my brother in-law bought a cheap
> one
> and glued a big sheet of green rubber onto that horrible slippery plastic
> back where it sits on your knee, making it actually playable and a lot of
> fun.
Mine have rubber already there. Maybe it had fallen off.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I've only played a few Ovations; none had rubber, all were slippery. Maybe
that's something new? (Where "new" is some time in the last 25 years or so.)
Charles Kaman just passed away this January.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Kaman
Mondoslug
> Kenny Burrell with flat top
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPp5iHukYKA>
>
> Bg
Cool...there's alot I've never seen & that's one of them.
Acoustic good!
Mondoslug
>>>>>Check out Tony Rice's album "Unit of Measure." IMO, he gets a
wonderful
jazzy sound on a Martin Dreadnaught.
>
Regards,
> John E. Golden<<<<
The tone of the solo fingerstyle acoustic pieces on that album is
kinda benchmark for me for solo acoustic guitar. I realize Tony's not
really considered jazz jazz but those guitars sound great, as does the
playing IMHO of course.
Steven Bornfeld
My brother has a '77 Martin D35. Yours I guess is several years older.
I know the mid-late 70s were not considered great years for Martin, as
they were really ramping up production. But his is nice. I've heard
that most of them develop the top crack between the pickguard and
bridge--and Mark's did. Did yours?
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Tom Walls
>
> My brother has a '77 Martin D35. Yours I guess is several years older. I
> know the mid-late 70s were not considered great years for Martin, as
> they were really ramping up production. But his is nice. I've heard that
> most of them develop the top crack between the pickguard and bridge--and
> Mark's did. Did yours?
>
> Steve
>
No cracks. I had a neck reset and a cracked bridge. The original owner
was rough with it and scuffed up the face of the guitar thrashing around
on it, and left a couple small gouges in the fretboard. It's a '72. It
has the 3 piece back, no truss rod. It's no collector's item -- these
things go for about $1200 -- but it sounds real good.
Flammarion
> I know a number of great players have used them but wonder if any in the
> group primarily uses a flat top? The reason I ask is that I had to do a
> major repair the last few days on a flat top, was hit by falling over with a
> split hole in the top. This cause a brace to fall off and after some cleats
> and clamps I think it will reasonably be fine with very little cosmetic
> issues. In any case it sure is easier to repair when you can get you whole
> hand and arm on the guitar unlike f holes. I played the guitar a bit and
> frankly I could not get any decent jazz tone but wonder if anyone here uses
> a flat top as their main jazz box? I repair them all the time but never had
> one from a jazz guitarist.
>
> Deacon Mark Cleary
> Epiphany Church
I use a kind of Maccaferri/Flat top hybrid (ie like a Macc but with a
pin bridge) habitually. Jazz can be played on almost anything. Good
steel-string guitars aren't ideal, because they are aimed at folk
players and therefore emphasise richness and resonance, which is fine
for slow, harmonically simple music, but can be too much of a good
thing when faced with the complexity of jazz. Poor flat-tops are built
to be thrashed
and have no subtlety. Ovations can be set up with a very light action
and can used to great effect in in
the "guitar shredding" style of Di Meola, Corryell, McLuaghlin and co
-- providing you don't mind an ultimately artificial, plasticky tone.
Nylon sting guitars (technically flat tops) work fine for some styles,
but forget about string-bending and anything else towards the blues
end of the spectrum. Gypsy guitars are very playable, but rely on the
player using *lots* of finger vibrato and other tricks to tame
the default honky/nasal tone. (They are also quite creditable for
blues, folk and even classical. Definitely the most versatile acoustic
for my money)
Flammarion
And you won't have any trouble reaching into a D-hole...
Mark Cleary
"Tom Walls" wrote in message news:iov56u$k6g$1...@news.albasani.net...
Funny this thread got more mileage than I thought, I figure no one ever
reads my threads. I know most of the jazz players that have used flat tops I
just posted this because I do work on flat tops all the time but never
really had a jazz guitarist bring me a flat top for repair. Mostly it is the
non pros and players who simply play at home or church, or in some pop band,
and they always have flat tops. One thing that gets me on your Martin and
flattops in general is the neck set business. I think it would be wiser to
build a flat top that was put together a little better and not require a
neck set in the future. It is as if they simply build into the formula of
these guitars a point that a neck set is going to need to be done. I would
build a little "beef" in the guitar and find some way to get sound without
ever thinking the guitar will need a neck set. Maybe they don't build them
with the thought of a neck set but sometimes I wonder.