Ditching BIAB for a looper
Jens Weisse
the most interesting change I have recently made to my pratice routine: I do
not use BIAB anymore. I bought a digitech looper instead, and I am comping
for myself.
As I work with computers all day, it's nice not to have to operate one when
practicing guitar.
Other advantages: I am listening more to my own guitar playing, and my
timing is improving tremendously. What is more, it is quicker to play 32
bars than to hack them into BIAB and figure out what the BIAB notation for a
certain chord might be. Also: no "natural drum (or whatever the new feature
is called)" synchronization issues, as others here have reported.
Frankly, it's an OK piece of software, but I'd rather make music than
program a machine. Listening to the so-so timing of all BIAB styles (except
bossa maybe) was never fun fro me. I only noticed that after making the
switch.
Jens
tom walls
says...
but that's as far as I've gotten. One of these days...
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
mu...@qmu.ac.uk
metronome, or click track, which is useful for keeping in time. Just
now I'm working on Db7#4 - just hit the chord once and jam on it for
15 mins. I don't how how I got by without it. BIAB sounds crap, and
doesn't inspire me at all. The Boss looper can record up to three
minutes before looping - an entire song. Some loopers only do a few
seconds.
Parker Guy
jazzgeetar
learning standards and I have no complaints with it. If you have a
good midi driver, then the sounds are good and I've had a good
experience with the live drums of the 2007 version.
-Dan
Joey Goldstein
Good for you. You'll learn much faster by doing more stuff *yourself*.
In the days before BIAB we all used little potable cassette recorders to
do exactly what you're doing now. Marantz had one with a pitch control
and a 1/2 speed function. But most of us used cassettes with more basic
features.
Before the cassette tape era, lots of guys used reel-to-reel recorders.
Before that, guys would just sit at a piano, hit the sustain pedal, play
a chord, and try out as much stuff as they could before the chord died down.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Tony Beltran
with computers after working on computers all day (I also
have a Digitech Jamman - as well as the original Lexicon
rack mount), I will say that BIAB will sound as good as
whatever sound module you have hooked up. BIAB produces
midi, which is a protocol that tells a sound module
when to play a note, what pitch, how loud, and how
long to hold it. As far as comments about the quality
of the backing (timing, coolness, etc.) that is BIAB.
Tony
jaz
> While I agree with the OP about not wanting to make music
> with computers after working on computers all day (I also
> have a Digitech Jamman - as well as the original Lexicon
> rack mount), I will say that BIAB will sound as good as
> whatever sound module you have hooked up.
You misunderstand. We're not talking about the sound of the samples,
we're talking about the bad basslines, wedding-band style swinging and
corny feel it has.
paul
> You misunderstand. We're not talking about the sound of the samples,
> we're talking about the bad basslines, wedding-band style swinging and
> corny feel it has.
yeah, I have never been able to stand using it for this reason. I
enjoy my looping pedal though, and use it for practice all the time.
it's really improved my comping skills also.
rpguitar
the melody and harmony instruments if you want. It's actually a great
jam and practice tool with just bass and drums. Sure, the parts are
not incredibly hip, but nobody is expecting BIAB to be artistically
profound. It is a PRACTICE tool.
Derek
plenty of standards that I don't have a grasp of, and BIAB is
invaluable for that. I also like being able to adjust the tempo
upward as my soloing improves on a particular song. Seeing a real
number (bpm) helps me see where I am and what I am capable of.
I like the Jamman more for laying down one chord vamps or simple
progressions, and experimenting with new ideas or learning licks/
line. I then take those new ideas and plug them into tunes via BIAB.
I also like being able to burn practice tracks off of BIAB to disc for
students. Two different tools with different uses.
Tony Beltran
Yes, the part you left out of the quote from my post
briefly addressed that:
Joey Goldstein
It's a great little tool with serious limitations.
The problem is that a novice player, happily playing along with BIAB
might not be aware of what those limitations are.
He might be surprised then when he gets to a real bandstand and the
piano player and the bass player are playing way different voicings and
bass lines than what his practice tool was preparing him for.
I can put up with the hokey feel of the various jazz styles available
for BIAB. I don't practice with BIAB to develop my time feel.
But the lack of control over the specifics of the chord voicings and
bass lines is almost impossible to work around. There are workarounds
(like using the notation window to write out a chord voicing and then
muting the piano track for that measure) but they are extremely tedious.
If I could do things like:
1. specify that all 5ths be omitted from voicings of 7th chords
2. specify that basslines of dom7b9 chords should not walk up from root
to 3rd via the maj 2nd
3. have the ability to expand or edit the chord list myself
Etc.
then I'd be much happier using it as a practice tool and recommending it
to my students.
Still, there are a great many things that a player really needs to work
out for himself by comping for himself as he works on soloing.
First off, he'll become a better accompanist.
But as a soloist, the student will better be able to understand why some
things work and some things don't if he is also aware of what specific
chord voicing he is playing over. And if you let BIAB comp for you,
you're not as likely to be aware of the specific voicings you're soloing
over.
Quick example:
You record a vamp of yourself comping on Cm9 and you have a 10th fret
1st string D nat on the top of your voicing.
You then go to practice soloing over that chord using the C dorian scale
and every time you lay into the Eb at the 11th fret 1st string it sounds
like hell.
That'll teach you that a voicing of a min9 chord has the 9th is in that
octave that the Eb just above it is a dissonant sounding note, even
though it's a chord tone.
It'll also teach you that when comping on Cm7, if you hear the soloist
play a high Eb, adding the 9th to your voicing might not be such a good
thing to do.
Etc., etc.
That type of awareness might never come out of a practice session with BIAB.
oasysco
> Jens Weisse wrote:
> > Hi All,
>
> > the most interesting change I have recently made to my pratice routine: I do
> > not use BIAB anymore. I bought a digitech looper instead, and I am comping
> > for myself.
>
> > As I work with computers all day, it's nice not to have to operate one when
> > practicing guitar.
>
> > Other advantages: I am listening more to my own guitar playing, and my
> > timing is improving tremendously. What is more, it is quicker to play 32
> > bars than to hack them into BIAB and figure out what the BIAB notation for a
> > certain chord might be. Also: no "natural drum (or whatever the new feature
> > is called)" synchronization issues, as others here have reported.
>
> > Frankly, it's an OK piece of software, but I'd rather make music than
> > program a machine. Listening to the so-so timing of all BIAB styles (except
> > bossa maybe) was never fun fro me. I only noticed that after making the
> > switch.
>
> > Jens
>
> Good for you. You'll learn much faster by doing more stuff *yourself*.
> In the days before BIAB we all used little potable cassette recorders to
> do exactly what you're doing now. Marantz had one with a pitch control
> and a 1/2 speed function. But most of us used cassettes with more basic
> features.
I still use my karaoke dual cassette player with pitch/speed control
for older recordings that were recorded outside of standard A=440hz
Greg
>
> Before the cassette tape era, lots of guys used reel-to-reel recorders.
> Before that, guys would just sit at a piano, hit the sustain pedal, play
> a chord, and try out as much stuff as they could before the chord died down.
>
> --
> Joey Goldsteinhttp://www.joeygoldstein.comhttp://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
RickH
I also use the jamman, in addition to comping practice, I picked up
some 2 gig flash cards and burned a collection of wav files (aebersold
and hl tracks) onto them. I'm still debating the best way to go as
far as putting together a very portable solo guitar w/tracks rig.
JamMan and a bunch of flash cards vs the laptop. I may wind up with
both ater I get more used to looping. BIAB is good for practice but
listeners hate hearing those corny drums, plus you need a good sound
module, and am I the only one confused by it's user interface?, etc.
I have an opportunity to play solo bg music every Sunday but need to
get a small rig together that can support the guitar, backing tracks
and a mic with little effort and technical fiddling.
Max Leggett
You dissing my style????
-------------------------------------------------------
Is it not strange that sheep's guts should hale
souls out of men's bodies?
Willie 'The Lion' Shakespeare
-------------------------------------------------------
jumpinjavabean
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tony,
I just got a Digitech JamMan and I was wondering if there's a way to
adjust the click tempo other than tapping.
In other words, once you set the tempo is there a way to use the knob
to make minor tempo adjustments up or down?
Thanks,
Jonathan
woland99
> You misunderstand. We're not talking about the sound of the samples,
> we're talking about the bad basslines, wedding-band style swinging and
> corny feel it has.
That assumes that your own playing has better sense of swinging.
Well your probbably - not mine. I think that both BIAB and looper
have some place in practice routine - one does not have to be too
dogmatic about it. Looper definitely improved my comping and it
inspires creation. But I still use BIAB. And at some point I plan
to switch from Boss looper to Ableton LIVE.
Tony Beltran
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:11:25 -0800, jumpinjavabean wrote:
> Tony,
>
> I just got a Digitech JamMan and I was wondering if there's a way to
> adjust the click tempo other than tapping.
> In other words, once you set the tempo is there a way to use the knob
> to make minor tempo adjustments up or down?
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
Not that I know of. I wish we could dial in a tempo
like a metronome, but tapping is the only way that I
know of. You can change the time signature though.
Tony
jumpinjavabean
Thanks.
I guess my tapping reflexes need work :)
Mark Cleary
while it sure is not a swingin jazz rhythm section it works fine. I have
looper too but I personally use BIAB more as it is easier. I have 4000
tunes ( which I can send to anyone who wants the files) in the program so it
is just ready to go. The looper just has limitations for practicing tunes
that BIAB does not.
--
Mark Cleary
Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars the Finest
Handcarved Jazz Guitars
http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/
"jazzgeetar" <jazzg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173193247.1...@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Chickenhead
going to give you the same degree of control, as you're pretty much limited
to what you can play in real-time.
I like BIAB sometimes just for a quick and dirty way to practice a set of
changes to a bassline and "drummer." The "human feel" of a lot of the
styles drives me nutz though. I also get tired of fighting BIAB's extension
and substitution choices.
If I have a few extra minutes, I vastly prefer just dropping the tempo on
Sonar or Cubase and punching in my own bassline. on a keyboard. Then I'll
quantize it or tweak it a little. I don't usually quantize note durations,
but just the start times. Sometimes I'll reduce the note lengths by
percentages for faster tempos.
I've got enough little MIDI drumloops accumulated that I usually don't have
to write from the ground up. I'm a terrible keyboardist, but if I drop the
tempo real slow and run through it a couple times first I can usually get a
perfectly useable walking bassline after a couple takes.
I've also got MIDI tracks with just a click on various beats and
combinations of beats that I can dump in if I don't want a whole drum kit.
That way I can rely on the timing to be either mechanically close to perfect
(aside from MIDI and program glitches), or I can play with it as I see fit.
I can slop it or play with it to the degree I want. I can move the cymbals
or snare a little behind the beat, etc.
I'm not trying to make recordings for release when I use BIAB or sequencing,
I'm just using it as a practice tool. Spending all day trying to get better
sounding samples or realistic tracks out of BIAB is a waste of time: It's a
practice tool.
People talk a lot about mechanical feels sounding corny, but in truth,
timing slop and non-quantized usually sounds vastly cornier to me. As long
as the note durations aren't quantized to death or quantized wrong, I
usually find precision to sound better and less corny than sloppy.
If you can take 10 minutes to punch in a bassline, sequencing it yourself is
almost always better.
"jaz" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:1173202983.8...@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Jens Weisse
"Max Leggett" <kidk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:45edc6fe.12190539@shawnews...
>>You misunderstand. We're not talking about the sound of the samples,
>>we're talking about the bad basslines, wedding-band style swinging and
>>corny feel it has.
>>
> You dissing my style????
>
You're killing me. But how do I explain to my colleagues at work what's so
funny about this.
Jens
Jens Weisse
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:eskf0o$gll$1...@news.datemas.de...
> If I could do things like:
> 1. specify that all 5ths be omitted from voicings of 7th chords
> 2. specify that basslines of dom7b9 chords should not walk up from root to
> 3rd via the maj 2nd
> 3. have the ability to expand or edit the chord list myself
> Etc.
Hey wow, Joey, you should be a BIAB consultant :-)
I think the worst thing is that you get around learning certain things on
guitar when using BIAB. eg. you want to play fast tunes, so learn to comp
fast tunes and develop YOUR OWN comp feel, not a BIAB feel. If you can't do
it without the drummer, it may be the case that you should practice some
more.
It will mess up your Jazz Feel if you do it extensively. It is muhc more
challenging to do this with a looper.
To everyone who quantizes Sequenced tacks etc: I understand, but I don't
have the time. If I have an hour of practice a day, I want to spend it
playing the guitar (not the computer keyboard).
Certainly BIAB is not a bad thing, but to me the attraction about playing
the guitar is that you can actually play chords and comp for yourself...
Jens