Plinky upper register in most guitars ... any suggestions?

[rpjazzguitar]

Any help with the following would be appreciated ....

Over the years I have struggled with getting notes on the high E string above the 12th fret or so to ring out really clearly. Think BB King stinging high note.

I first noticed the problem on a mid 70's Les Paul. I don't recall it on my first L5S (trapeze tailpiece) which was stolen. My replacement L5S (stud tailpiece) with high (replacement) frets did have the problem. I had meticulous fret work done by two luthiers whose names you probably have heard). It wasn't the frets.

Then, I bought a GAS D'A EXDC. It was wondrous. No problem. High notes sang out. But, I got tired of the midrange sound of the guitar. Just too dull. Also, the body is a little too big for me.

After playing a two guitar session with a great player who was using a Stratocaster through a Victoria amp I decided to get my first Fender. I got an American Standard Stratocaster. Same problem. Very plinky sounding in the upper register. The Fender guy, who happens to write the repair column for GP, examined it carefully and told me that "that's the Stratocasters are, maybe it's not the guitar for you". I tried a Lil 59 in the neck position, but I lost the rhythm sound I wanted, and the upper register was thicker but still plinky.

BTW, the guy with the Victoria amp played an Eric Johnson model which I thought had the same problem. His style didn't expose it, since he rarely tried to sustain high notes.

I went back to the EXDC, but I miss the single coil sound for rhythm work. The lead tone, is adequate, if unspectacular.

So, what I'm looking for is a single coil, or coil-split guitar that gives basically a Stratocaster sound but sings out in the upper register.

I don't know what else to do to rule out a problem with the fretwork. My guess is that it's a construction issue and not a fret issue.

I'm willing to buy a new guitar, but I'm not sure what to consider. I'm looking for suggestions. I'm not an archtop guy (I can't stand feedback) and I don't want something so expensive I'll be afraid to take it on a gig.

So, has anybody else noticed this problem with their guitars? Anybody have a solution?

TIA,

Rick

[Nate Najar]

You really need a humbucker to get that sound.... You can get it with a bridge single coil but it will sting instead of sing

[JNugent]

Sounds like an action and response issue.

I would guess that if you used a heavier gauge of strings (at least on
the high E) and raised the action slightly (it doesn't have to be a
lot), you'd solve part or all of the problem.

Why not try it? It would only cost you the price of a plain string and a
few minutes adjusting the action.

[Joey Goldstein]

Have you tried simply raising the pole piece under the high E string?
If your pups have slug magnets then raise the treble side of the pickup.

Also, if your pickup's pole pieces are too close to the strings it can
cause similar symptoms.
Bass side pole pieces should be no less than 1/8" below the low e string
when the string is fretted at the highest fret.
Treble side can be closer, but no less than 1/16".

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>

[rpjazzguitar]

I have tried every combination of pole piece and pickup height.

I went to the lil 59 partly because it has adjustable pole pieces. I got a humbucker sound, but I still thought it lacked that singing quality.

I have heard a very experienced player say that Fenders have this reputation as compared to Gibsons, but I don't have enough experience with Fenders myself to know.

Also, perhaps surprisingly, it doesn't sound so plinky when played unamplified. That's another reason I tried a different pickup.

[Tony Done]

1) Put some different pickups in the D'A. - Some kind of P90 type,
maybe GFS Dream 90s, or a bright *uncovered* humbucker like SD Jazz
with series/parallel/single switching - this is what I have in my very
dark sounding Westone 335 knockoff to brighten it up.

2) Ask in alt.guitar, which I think might have a wider range of guitar
and pickup interests/experience than this group.

3) Go out and try a lot of different guitars until you find one that
does it for you. IMO, there are too many variables to provide a simple
answer, even between individual guitars of the same model.

4) Try some simple set up options, as others have suggested. Eg Jim
suggests heavier strings, I've had more luck with 10 than heavier on
electric, so try 'em all and see.

5) Try different amps, with reverb or delay and compression to aid
sustain.

[Mr. Maj6th]

I have a pickup that might be just what you want, if you want I can
send it to you and you can try it. Contact me off usenet at
maj...@earthlink.net

Maj6th

[rpjazzguitar]

For which guitar? What is the nature of the pickup?

[rpjazzguitar]

One of my questions here is very basic ...

Is this a known problem with Fenders?

How about Les Pauls?

[John A.]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 3:39:40 PM UTC-4, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> Any help with the following would be appreciated ....
>
>
>
> Over the years I have struggled with getting notes on the high E string above the 12th fret or so to ring out really clearly. Think BB King stinging high note.

An example of what I think of as BB King's upper register "sting" is the staccato high note in the opening solo about :20 into

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpuqM035Abw

Is that what you're thinking of? If so, I find I can get that on pretty much any guitar, including my EX DC and my Am Std Strat. I find it to be a mainly a matter of technique. If I pick it hard with the pick, I can't get the effect. InsteadI kind of brush it hard and quickly with the nail of my index finger. The other thing about B.B.'s tone, when he does this best, he's usually cranked quite loud, as on Live at Cook County Jail. If you're trying to do this through a quiet/clean amp, it's probably not going to happen. I've heard him live many times, mostly through the infamous Lab Series, but once through a cranked tweed amp (looked like Bassman), and holy smoke, it was like Live at the Regal.

That said, I think there is an inherent thinness to the upper register of a Strat (relative to a semi-hollow), and it's not going to sting/ring quite the same way. With your EX DC, I would suggest playing around more with technique and amp, and then maybe (as others have suggested) a pick-up swap. I'm not too knowledgeable about pick-up choices, though, so haven't got any specific recommendations.

Joh

[rpjazzguitar]

The notes from about 18 to 20 seconds in, are kind of what I'm talking about. I usually sustain them longer than he does.

On the Strat they sound choked off -- plinky is the word that comes to my mind to describe it.

On the EXDC they sing out clearly. But, as I pointed out, I've had the same problem with a Les Paul and an L5S.

I appreciate your suggestion about playing with technique and amp. I'm too old to change or improve my technique, but I'm at the age where I can buy an amp. I just can't carry it! What I did do was go to an ME70 with 4 band EQ. I haven't used it much with the EXDC, but I think you're right that I should spend more time with that.

That session I had with the Strat player was one of those times when you think, or at least I thought, "I have to get THAT sound!". What I liked about it was the clarity the notes seemed to have. I usually play with acoustic piano. With a humbucker there's a tendency for the guitar to fill up a part of the frequency spectrum along with the pianist's left hand and the higher bass notes, and create a kind of low rumble (particularly if you comp on the middle 4 strings). I hear this all the time with archtop players (not the top guys, but I'm talking about bars and restaurant gigs I've heard). With the Strat, that doesn't happen as easily. The guitar sits nicely in its own spot in the mix. It's not a tone I'd want to play a solo chord melody with necessarily, but it works in that context.

[Joey Goldstein]

I've had the same problem with traditional style single coil staggered
magnet Strat pickups, but only with the neck pickup.
This is because the magnet stagger pattern was designed for players
using heavier strings than me and with a wound G, and was using a plain G.
The individual magnet heights on these are not adjustable. Only the
pickup height and angle are adjustable.
The high E magnet was never designed to be close enough to the string to
get the right balance with light-ish strings.

What gauge is your high E string on this guitar and what type of pickup
is on there?

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-17-13 10:31 AM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> On 05-16-13 7:05 PM, rpjazzguitar wrote:
>> One of my questions here is very basic ...
>>
>> Is this a known problem with Fenders?
>>
>> How about Les Pauls?
>>
>
> I've had the same problem with traditional style single coil staggered
> magnet Strat pickups, but only with the neck pickup.
> This is because the magnet stagger pattern was designed for players
> using heavier strings than me and with a wound G, and was using a plain G.
> The individual magnet heights on these are not adjustable. Only the
> pickup height and angle are adjustable.
> The high E magnet was never designed to be close enough to the string to
> get the right balance with light-ish strings.

And the problem is magnified if you use your tone pot to roll off any
treble frequencies.

[John A.]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:30:25 PM UTC-4, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> The notes from about 18 to 20 seconds in, are kind of what I'm talking about. I usually sustain them longer than he does.
>
>
>
> On the Strat they sound choked off -- plinky is the word that comes to my mind to describe it.
>
>
>
> On the EXDC they sing out clearly. But, as I pointed out, I've had the same problem with a Les Paul and an L5S.
>
>
>
> I appreciate your suggestion about playing with technique and amp. I'm too old to change or improve my technique, but I'm at the age where I can buy an amp. I just can't carry it! What I did do was go to an ME70 with 4 band EQ. I haven't used it much with the EXDC, but I think you're right that I should spend more time with that.
>
>
>
> That session I had with the Strat player was one of those times when you think, or at least I thought, "I have to get THAT sound!". What I liked about it was the clarity the notes seemed to have. I usually play with acoustic piano. With a humbucker there's a tendency for the guitar to fill up a part of the frequency spectrum along with the pianist's left hand and the higher bass notes, and create a kind of low rumble (particularly if you comp on the middle 4 strings).

Yup. It's the piano player's fault, as usual ;-)

>I hear this all the time with archtop players (not the top guys, but I'm talking about bars and restaurant gigs I've heard). With the Strat, that doesn't happen as easily. The guitar sits nicely in its own spot in the mix. It's not a tone I'd want to play a solo chord melody with necessarily, but it works in that context.

I actually really like the sound of the Strat for solo chord melody stuff (at least within the limitations of my own abilities in this area). I like the open/airy quality it has, and I like the color of the in-between sounds. For me the biggest limitation is single-string soloing high up on the fretboard, and the sort of "sting" issue you're talking about. The thinness probably varies from instrument to instrument, and between rosewood and maple boards, but it's there in all Strats as near as I can tell. I think you might find some improvement by mucking around a bit more with tone settings, set-up, amps, eq, etc., but ultimately I think you have to accept this as a trade-off for the mid-fretboard clarity that you like. Oh, and I wasn't suggesting that you get a new amp, just crank the one you're got. Your bandmates will especially appreciate that.

John

[Nate Najar]

You am always try a compressor. A lot of the "singing" sounds we hear blues and rock soloists get is not necessarily gain per se but rather the compression that occurs when you crank the amplifier. That's why a lot of early rock things sing even though they have some grit but not gobs of distortion. And when you try to do that at low volume, you end up using more "gain" than you should to make up for lack of compression at the low volume. So a subtly set compressor can give you the sing without the dirt...,,

[John A.]

On Friday, May 17, 2013 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, Nate Najar wrote:
> You am always try a compressor. A lot of the "singing" sounds we hear blues and rock soloists get is not necessarily gain per se but rather the compression that occurs when you crank the amplifier.

Yup, and if we're talking about BB, he mainly used Lab Series amps throughout the 70s and 80s, and these have a compressor built in.


John


John

[John A.]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:30:25 PM UTC-4, rpjazzguitar wrote:

> The notes from about 18 to 20 seconds in, are kind of what I'm talking about. I usually sustain them longer than he does.
>

At about the 5:00 mark of this, B.B. plays a "sting":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA-zCK0dEds

It's hard to see exactly what his right hand is doing, but there's a clear change in attack from what he's doing before and after.

John

[rpjazzguitar]

I've been going back and forth between an 11 and a 12. Both have the problem. I think it's an 11 on there right now.

I had the Lil 59 in the neck position, but I ended up feeling like I lost what I liked about the Strat sound without really solving the problem, so I put the American Standard stock pickup back on.

[rpjazzguitar]

This is an interesting point. With the treble pot on full treble, the sound changes, forgive me, from something I might call plinky, to something I'd call zingy for want of a better term. So, Gary Brawer, the luthier, may have been right, that it isn't the guitar for me, because I can't get something I'm looking for out of it. Which leaves me on the hunt for a rhythm sound that single coil based, but with a sweeter upper register. I'm thinking about Jim Halls sound with the P90 175 back in 60's.

[rpjazzguitar]

Thanks for the tip. I have a compressor in the ME70 that I usually just leave off. I'll try it.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-17-13 5:27 PM, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> This is an interesting point. With the treble pot on full treble, the sound changes, forgive me, from something I might call plinky, to something I'd call zingy for want of a better term. So, Gary Brawer, the luthier, may have been right, that it isn't the guitar for me, because I can't get something I'm looking for out of it. Which leaves me on the hunt for a rhythm sound that single coil based, but with a sweeter upper register. I'm thinking about Jim Halls sound with the P90 175 back in 60's.
>

P90s are a very different sound from a trad Strat pickup.

If you want to keep trying to play jazz on that guitar w2ith the stock
pickup then you might try using different cap values on the tone pot.
A .047mf cap gets darker than a .02 cap which seems to be Fender's
standard these days.
But .047 used to be the standard on Fender guitars.
I find the .047s to be too dark and boomy for me so I usually stick to
the .02 cap and don't try to play jazz on my guitars with those types of
pickups.

I know you say you've tried changing the pickup height but have you done
it this way yet?
Neck pup bass side - 1/8" below low E string when string is fretted at
the highest fret.
Neck pickup treble side - 1/16" below high E string when fretted at the
highest fret.
If that doesn't help then lower it even more on the bass side.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-17-13 6:09 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> On 05-17-13 5:27 PM, rpjazzguitar wrote:
>> This is an interesting point. With the treble pot on full treble, the
>> sound changes, forgive me, from something I might call plinky, to
>> something I'd call zingy for want of a better term. So, Gary Brawer,
>> the luthier, may have been right, that it isn't the guitar for me,
>> because I can't get something I'm looking for out of it. Which leaves
>> me on the hunt for a rhythm sound that single coil based, but with a
>> sweeter upper register. I'm thinking about Jim Halls sound with the
>> P90 175 back in 60's.
>>
>
> P90s are a very different sound from a trad Strat pickup.
>

> If you want to keep trying to play jazz on that guitar with the stock

> pickup then you might try using different cap values on the tone pot.
> A .047mf cap gets darker than a .02 cap which seems to be Fender's
> standard these days.
> But .047 used to be the standard on Fender guitars.
> I find the .047s to be too dark and boomy for me so I usually stick to
> the .02 cap and don't try to play jazz on my guitars with those types of
> pickups.
>
> I know you say you've tried changing the pickup height but have you done
> it this way yet?
> Neck pup bass side - 1/8" below low E string when string is fretted at
> the highest fret.
> Neck pickup treble side - 1/16" below high E string when fretted at the
> highest fret.
> If that doesn't help then lower it even more on the bass side.
>

And if you want to put another Strat-sized pup in there to try for jazz,
before you sell the guitar, check out the Dimarzio Pro-Track.
<http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/strat/hum-canceling-strat/pro-track>

[rpjazzguitar]

I didn't bother when it would have been easier, but another option would be to split the coils on the neck Lil 59 and put in a switched pot to control it. But as much as I read about coil splitting options, I never hear anybody rave about it.

[Bill Godwin]

On Friday, May 17, 2013 11:24:50 PM UTC-4, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> I didn't bother when it would have been easier, but another option would be to split the coils on the neck Lil 59 and put in a switched pot to control it. But as much as I read about coil splitting options, I never hear anybody rave about it.

I had an ibanez lp copy which i put seyour duncan '59 in the neck position, a SD JB in the bridge position and THEN installed a third pu ( a Duncan JB) in between the two.

All pickups were 4 wire so in addition to wiring it up with a Strat switch ( 5 Position ) I also could do coil split and coil tap. The "in between" positions when I switched to coil split were very satisfying for me at the time to produce a "fake" strat.

years I ended up getting a strat because I really wanted the single coil strat sound.

Bill G

[Tony Done]

On 18/05/2013 12:31 AM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> On 05-16-13 7:05 PM, rpjazzguitar wrote:
>> One of my questions here is very basic ...
>>
>> Is this a known problem with Fenders?
>>
>> How about Les Pauls?
>>
>
> I've had the same problem with traditional style single coil staggered
> magnet Strat pickups, but only with the neck pickup.
> This is because the magnet stagger pattern was designed for players
> using heavier strings than me and with a wound G, and was using a plain G.
> The individual magnet heights on these are not adjustable. Only the
> pickup height and angle are adjustable.
> The high E magnet was never designed to be close enough to the string to
> get the right balance with light-ish strings.
>
> What gauge is your high E string on this guitar and what type of pickup
> is on there?
>

Modern strat pickups wound on a plastic bobbin can have their poles
adjusted because the slugs are only a friction fit in the bobbin, and
can be moved with gentle persuasion. - I use a piece of brass rod in a
drill press, but a mallet and a any bit of soft rod will work just fine
with care. I have done it at least a dozen times, both to convert
vintage or flat to modern stagger, and to convert any plastic bobbin
strat-style pickups for use with phosphor bronze strings in soundhole
pickups. - See pics in Flickr link in sig.

Don't try it on traditional fibre plate types, because the wire is wound
directly onto the slugs. I wrecked a couple before I gave up on it.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[rpjazzguitar]

Apparently, tightening the screws on the bridge plate and tightening the claw, 5 springs and screwed way down, made a difference.

Now, I don't notice that the high E string is much plinkier than anything else. I think,now, it sounds pretty thin, but less plinky. It doesn't sing out like the EXDC, but it doesn't sound like the fretboard is curling up either.

So, now, what I'm thinking is that I'd like to preserve the midrange sound of the guitar -- which is great -- while thickening the upper register. I'm wondering if anybody else has dealt with that. I can't see any way to do it by changing the guitar physically -- so I'm wondering about maybe 7 band EQ (the most I have now is 5, on one amp and 4 on the ME70). Or, maybe putting the Lil59 back in, splitting the coils and playing rhythm in SC and single note solos in HB mode. Or, give it up and get a different guitar (I'm in that GAS mood), but I'm not sure what's going to sound like a Strat on chords and Wes on lead.

[dunlop212]

Probably not what you are looking for, but here is a quote from Johnny Smith:

“I designed a guitar that was a little different in its conception, such as in the higher register: having the neck go directly into the body, and employing cross-bracing—all to make the upper register of the guitar sustain more. The arch top guitars of those days were hollowed out underneath the fingerboard in the very high registers. It kind of made the upper register hard to play because the fingerboard had a tendency to drop off starting around the 15th fret. So by putting the neck directly into the top with no space underneath, it was perfectly flat and playable right to the very last fret; plus it gave me wonderful sustain right up to the 20th fret—I guess I was one of the original nuts to go for the full range of the instrument."