Therory------------Why Does This Line Work???????????????????
Henry Moon
bar is:
[descending from pos 3] G, D, B, Ab....melody on top.
So I fool with it and change the B to a C. Sounds like a Bb dom or the
like. Fine.
I came up with this line...which has the notes of Bb dom with a b5 but
still I don't know why it works in this situation. The line from that
...descending in eighths is:
G, Eb, D, C, Bb, Ab, Gb, E.....relsove to an F. Last part is whole tone
I know. Is it really some form of a G alt? Cause the chord could be
(Descend> G, D, B, F.
I know, I know. If it sounds good who gives a shit what it is.
But I would like your opinion on what's going on harmonically. Joey,
Bob, Joe, Mark, Anyone?
Maybe you could even have an improvement. (Well I'm pretty sure of
that)
(BTW. Even tho it's a little out, do you like it?)
thanks for looking. It sure lays good.
Henry
Joey Goldstein
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Jeremey Poparad
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
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> Sorry but I can't follow any of this.
>
I believe this is what he was saying:
http://gozips.uakron.edu/~jjp14/blackbird.pdf
The first three beats are just a G natural minor scale over G7, which is a
common device; using a minor scale over dominant. Very similar to the idea
of using minor pentatonic over a dominant like in the blues.
The last beat of the bar can be seen as just a chromatic enclosure of the F
in the next bar. A chromatic enclosure, aka bracketing, is simply playing
or or more notes chromatically above and below the target note. You can
fill up a whole bar targeting a single note with a chromatic enclosure if
you wanted to, although they are usually only 1-2 beats (2-4 notes) long in
jazz.
As for the changing of the voicing, it's really just making it a G13sus4,
which fits with that G minor line because they both have an 11th in them.
Jeremey Poparad
> The first three beats are just a G natural minor scale over G7, which is a
> common device; using a minor scale over dominant. Very similar to the
idea
> of using minor pentatonic over a dominant like in the blues.
>
Sorry, I overlooked the Ab in that. It's almost a G minor scale atleast...
So I guess this would make it G phrygian. In that case, it's really a lot
like playing G phrygian dominant (C harmonic minor), but substituting a #9
for the major 3rd (Bb for B), harmonically speaking anyway. But either way,
#9 b9 is a very compatable sound over G7 no matter how or when you use it.
Jeremey Poparad
> As for the changing of the voicing, it's really just making it a G13sus4,
> which fits with that G minor line because they both have an 11th in them.
>
>
Ok, time to start proof reading posts:
I reread the original post and saw you had an Ab in it and not an A natural,
and a D and not an E. The V chord in minor (using harmonic minor) has all
of the notes in the chords you spelled out (R, 3, 11, 5, b9). Coupled with
the psuedo phrygian/phrygian dominant thing happening in the scale, I
suppose you're really just hearing things as a V7 in minor.
Rick Stone
The chord you're talking about is an Abo(ma7). That's the normal chord in
the 6th measure of "Blackbird" (moving to Gm7).
The line seems like it's just using notes from the Abo and some chromatics
to approach chord tones (the Eb into the D, the Gb E into the F). The C
going into the Bb sounds a bit funny to my ear. I'd rather hear C going
into a B like this:
G Eb D C B Ab Gb E F
Or a B into the Bb like this:
G Eb D B Bb Ab Gb E F
Either one works fine for me. I guess the C to Bb works for you because of
forward motion (you're hearing the tonality and the coming Gm chord).
The reason you hear Bb7b5 is because that's one of the dominants that comes
from Abo (along with Db7, E7 and G7). Also, the voicing you mentioned is
what we often use over a Bb in the bass to get a Bb13b9 chord.
Hope this helps.
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Listen to clips from my new CD "Samba de Novembro" with Tardo Hammer, Yosuke
Inoue and Matt Wilson at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/rickstone
And drummer Al Ashley's CD "These Are Them" featuring Dave Leibman, Rick
Stone and Oliver Von Essen at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/alashley
"Henry Moon" <castl...@ev1.net> wrote in message
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Charlie Robinson
choice for bar 6. Most guys use some form of D7 or it's tri-tone sub Ab7.I
think the Real Book 2 has Abdim. which can be seen as Ab7b9. But Henry
seems see his choice as a type of extended G7. It is easy to to justify his
note choices on that basis but you are left wondering if this strange reharm
(down 1/2 step) was his true aural intent.
Charlie
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:42E640C2...@nowhere.net...
Charlie Robinson
Henry has to do now is view things in terms of Abdim (Ab7b9) instead of G7
(as you have done). As far as the way it sounds, it is up to him to decide
if that is what he wants.
Charlie
"Rick Stone" <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote in message
news:iYrFe.10413$in2.9362@trndny05...
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> Sorry but I can't follow any of this.
>
> Henry Moon wrote:
> >
> > So I'm playing 'Bye Bye Blackbird' in F. My normal chord for the 6th
> > bar is:
> > [descending from pos 3] G, D, B, Ab....melody on top.
Abdim(maj7), right.
> > So I fool with it and change the B to a C. Sounds like a Bb dom or the
> > like. Fine.
Well, yes, but it's not functioning that way.
Functionally, it's still a chromatic connecting chord, a passing chord,
between F/A and Gm7, our two diatonic chords.
I hear (bottom to top)
Ab C D G
in this instance as a form of Abmaj7b5.
If I had to give it it's own name that's what I'd call it.
But really it's just still Abdim with an appoggiatura (in this case a
scale tone from the key, the key's dominant as a matter of fact, the
second most important note in the key) above the chord's 3rd, plus Tmaj7
(Tension maj7).
> > I came up with this line...which has the notes of Bb dom with a b5 but
> > still I don't know why it works in this situation. The line from that
> > ...descending in eighths is:
> > G, Eb, D, C, Bb, Ab, Gb, E.....relsove to an F.
With your new chord, Abmaj7b5, that line (assuming 1/8 note starting on
the downbeat of bar 6) analyses like this:
Abmaj7b5 |Gm7
T7 UA App Camb
G Eb D C Bb Ab Gb E |F
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |1
T7 = Tension maj7
UA = unprepared approach note (This Eb is an approach note to D, a chord
tone. The Eb is on a weaker beat compared to the D. I'd call it a
passing tone but in this key on that chord Eb would normally be found
between F and D or between E and D, not between G and D. G-Eb is
technically a leap, so Eb isn't really a passing tone IMO.)
D and C are both chord tones and do not need any labeling in this type
of analysis.
Bb looks like a passing tone (between C and Ab) but because it is on a
stronger beat than its note of resolution (Ab) I'd call it an appoggiatura.
Ab is a chord tone.
The Gb and E are approach notes directed towards the target note F in
the next measure on the next chord. They form a device called a cambiata
or enclosure. In this case the upper neighbor tone is a chromatic
neighbor. Usually upper neighbors are diatonic. Try a G nat here instead
of Gb sometime. You might like it. On the other hand, the Gb has adds a
bit of a harmonic suggestion of Ab7 on beat 4. Ab7 > Gm7 is a little bit
more forward feeling a progression than Abmaj7 > Gm7.
Now, to my ears, if you played this on a gig without telling anybody
that you were reharmonising the Abdim chord it would sound a little
weak. Not wrong mind you, just weak.
Over Abdim your line alnalses like this:
Abdim |Gm7
T7 UA Tb11 App Camb |
G Eb D C Bb Ab Gb E |F
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |1
I've called the C "Tb11" (tension b11) here, only because on this chord
it does not resolve to Cb the nearest chord tone below it. This puts
enough of an emphasis on the C nat for it to be heard as a vertical
sound on the chord. And in this case, Tb11, is not what is usually
called an "available tension" because vertically on Abdim it doesn't
sound so hot. So it *is* a tension, it's just not a good sounding
tension (to most folks most of the time). To most folks, most of the
time, it sounds a little bit unresolved, like a "mistake". Of course
it's on a weak beat and C is the dominant of the key, so it's no
"whoop". [And to the guy who said he doesn't like Mike Myers...Fuck you.]
T11 would be Db, which does fit vertically on the chord but is outside
of the key. Try Db here instead of C. [Remember, this is over Abdim, not Abmaj7b5.]
Abdim |Gm7
T7 UA T11 App Camb |
G Eb D Db Bb Ab Gb E |F
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |1
You might like it better. You might not.
A better line based on your original line but over Abdim would be:
Abdim |Gm7
T7 UA App Camb |
G Eb D Cb Bb Ab Gb E |F
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |1
or
Abdim |Gm7
T7 UA PT Camb |
G Eb D C B Ab Gb E |F
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |1
> Last part is whole tone
> > I know.
Just because you have a couple of whole tones does not make for the WT
scale, if that's what you're thinking.
Charlie Robinson
strange since I hear an Ab dominant 7th. type of harmony there. My Ab7b9
theory doesn't hold up, Ab dim, equals G7b9. So there might be some
justification for considering it from the standpoint of G7. G7 b9/Ab to G7
sus4/Ab might be a good starting point for hearing it that way.
Charlie
"Charlie Robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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juru...@aol.com
bar is:
[descending from pos 3] G, D, B, Ab....melody on top.
Is your bass player on G? Those notes are also in an E7 altered chord.
To my ear, when you play a 2 dominant chord with a b9, it puts it to
my ear in the family of the leading tone dominant, E7.
Again, the way I hear this at the most basic level is it's an E7 alt
chord (leading tone dominant of F) that can sound like both the 5
chord of an A harmonic minor, and/or the 7 chord of an F melodic minor
just like any secondary dominant. It's really the same change as
Stella if it were played in F, but dressed up a little differently.
The first one gives you B, and the second one gives you the C. You can
mix match or do both if you can grab 'em.
The original change could be a 2 dominant, but if you flat a nine in
that chord, my ear groups it with 7 dominant, a common as dirt change
in standards and worth learning to recognize automatically. Like the
opening of Stella or the second change of Meditation.
So, I hear it as Fmaj in resolution ( no strong Bb) going to E7alt on
to F maj in non res (Gm7 includes the Bb) on to however you want to
play C7.
Your line is a little different, but not much.
However you look at it, it wavers in and out of tonality, but has the
subtext of whole step intervals to make it make a different kind of
sense.
That's almost a surefire good sound if you can get into it naturally,
and you can practice that if you're hip to it, like if you know what
the chord is and what the best upper structure would be so you can get
into it, out of it and back into it. Loop the change and grind it in
when practicing. Not just whole tones, any subtext.
The line from that
...descending in eighths is:
G, Eb, D, C, Bb, Ab, Gb, E.....relsove to an F. Last part is whole tone
I know. Is it really some form of a G alt?
The only nyeh!? tone of G alt is the maj7 Gb which passes.
If you think E, there's a maj7 at Eb but it too shall pass, and the Gb
is a natural 9th in a setting that usually doesn't include it (more
commonly # or b 9 there) but it's gone quickly. Either way, it's a
little 'out' in the middle of 'in' so that almost always works.
That Bb you're hearing is the tritone of the lt dominant E7. It's the
4 chord of F melodic minor, which to my ear outlines the leading tone
altered dominant harmony. It sounds great as a 13#11 chord - sort of
steely dannish.
Clif
Charlie Robinson
reconcile the resolution to G- unless that whole E7th episode is viewed as a
superimposed progession. I like the idea of seeing it as drifting out and
back in again. It seems that Henry is doing naturally what a lot of guys are
trying to get to by superimposing other changes over the original.
Charlie
<juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Henry Moon
Well.........since the chord is some from of an Ab dim............and
Ab is tritone of D.........I could play D dominent stuff (with an 11 in
there somewhere for melody respect) as well couldn't I?
[might be a little out]
Henry
juru...@aol.com
reconcile the resolution to G- unless that whole E7th episode is viewed
as a
superimposed progession.
Not really. The dominant at seven goes to the minor at 2 in Stella. If
it were in F, I'd do it Bm11b5-E13b9-Gm11 or some such.
The chord can move to either a tension chord, like the 2, the same as
Stella, or like at the end of All The things or Night and day, like if
they were in F, Am Abdim (or Bm7b5-E7b9) Gmi. or it can move back to a
resolution chord like in Meditation or Whispering, an Fmaj7 E7b9 Fmaj6
type thing. (Or that great sounding Bb13#11 instead - tritone sub and a
nifty sound.)
But if you mean is all this superimposed, maybe yes. I don't know the
original changes of blackbird, but it might have been G7 to Gminor.
Henry's alteration (b9) on a G chord makes it sound more to me like the
E7 route.
I like the idea of seeing it as drifting out and
back in again. It seems that Henry is doing naturally what a lot of
guys are
trying to get to by superimposing other changes over the original.
amen. Henry can play. That #### Dutch guy too...:o) Didn't you dig
H's ballad?
Clif
Joey Goldstein
Abdim is closely related to G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7.
It is not related to Ab7 and/or D7 in the way that I think you think it
is.
But, Ab7, if it were not for the melody (G), would be a decent
reharmonization of the original change. I.e. Ab7 can serve the same
purpose as Abdim, namely as a passing chord between F/A and Gm. If you
hear Ab7 replacing Abdim then you can also probably hear some D7-ish
things fitting in as well. And of course, on your blowing nobody will be
playing that melody. The bass player will probably be hovering around Ab
too. So you might be able to get away with playing here as if it's Ab7.
But, if you play the Ab7 stuff on this tune with good players, without
discussing it beforehand, they'll probably just think that you don't
really know the tune.
--
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> The original change is Abdim.
> Abdim is closely related to G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7.
> It is not related to Ab7 and/or D7 in the way that I think you think it
> is.
>
> But, Ab7, if it were not for the melody (G), would be a decent
> reharmonization of the original change. I.e. Ab7 can serve the same
> purpose as Abdim, namely as a passing chord between F/A and Gm. If you
> hear Ab7 replacing Abdim then you can also probably hear some D7-ish
> things fitting in as well. And of course, on your blowing nobody will be
> playing that melody. The bass player will probably be hovering around Ab
> too. So you might be able to get away with playing here as if it's Ab7.
>
> But, if you play the Ab7 stuff on this tune with good players, without
> discussing it beforehand, they'll probably just think that you don't
> really know the tune.
And IMO your original reharm of Abmaj7b5 is stronger and is much closer
to the sense of the Abdim chord. The main difference is the presence of
C nat in the scale associated with Abmaj7b5. But C nat is the 2nd
strongest note in the key of F major, so you can get away somewhat with
stressing C nat's on Abdim anyways in this key. It's that "horizontal"
thing I'm always going on about, stuff related to the key not the chord.
Scales related to Abmaj7b5 might use Eb or E nat in them. E nat will
help keep the F major key feeling. Eb will help the listener to hear the
root of the chord on Ab but will work against the F major key feeling.
All of the other scale tones normally associated with Abmaj7b5 will also
fit on Abdim
(Ab = R, Bb = 9, D = b5, F = 13/bb7, G = maj7).
Joey Goldstein
Db7b9 is basically Abdim7/Db. The Abm7 serves to just force some
chromatic appoggiaturas or approach notes above the notes of Abdim7-Db7b9.
Eg.
Eb, the 5th of Abm7, resolves into Ebb, the b5th of Abdim7 or the b9th
of Db7b9.
Gb, the b7th of abm7, resolves into F, the bb7th of Abdim7 or the 3rd of Db7b9.
So your typical Abm7 Db7 line:
Ab Cb Eb Gb F
can be used over Abdim7.
The Eb is a little bit unresolved in the above example.
This might be a little bit stronger:
Ab Cb Eb Gb F D
(The D is the resolution of the previous Eb.)
....
Dim7 chords are tricky to hear melodic lines over and they can be
overwhelming from a theory standpoint. I think you're just having
trouble hearing the Abdim chord.
Here's a horizontally oriented trick that works on dim7 chords that are
inversions of Idim7 (in major keys).
Scale degrees (i.e. the major scale built on the tonic of the key) 6 7 1
and 2 are always the safest notes on these chords.
Eg. In the key of F major, on dim7 chords that are inversions of Fdim7
(Fdim7,
*Abdim7*, Bdim7, and Ddim7) the notes D E F and G are the safest bets melodically.
Dim7 chords always involve some degree of chromaticism within a key but
the strongest melodies to play over them are very often diatonic. Check
out the melodies of several standards on their dim7 chords and you'll
usually see diatonic notes rather than chromatic ones.
Bye Bye Blackbird, F major, on Abdim7 the mel is G, scale degree 2.
All The Things, Ab major, on Cbdim7 the mel is G, scale degree 7.
Etc., etc., etc.
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> Another common way to play through this bar is by outlining Abm7 Db7b9.
Or Abm7b5 Db7b9.
Henry Moon
leading me to a dom feel. Also it's (the chord itself) visually a form
that I (we) use for a Bb dom of various kinds.
I need to digest what you just said. I really appreciate this
knowledge.
Henry
Charlie Robinson
Db7b9 is basically Abdim7/Db. The Abm7 serves to just force some
chromatic appoggiaturas or approach notes above the notes of Abdim7-Db7b9.
That is the one that I usually use, in fact I'll substitute A-7 D7 for the
Fmaj.7th and then go down a half step for those changes sometimes. You are
right about the Ab7 although it will get you to the G-7 nicely it ignores
tune which is what I was doing.
Charlie
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
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Charlie Robinson
yourself by the way).
Charlie
<juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Charlie Robinson
now I'm starting to like two beats of E7#9 and two beats of G13 at bar 6 and
a G-11 at bar 7 (if there is anyone still alive who cares about this:).
Charlie
Charlie
Charlie
<juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Charlie Robinson
Abdim is closely related to G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7.
Henry's original analysis is correct then. His first voicing can be viewed
as a G7b9 then by using symmetrical harmony the G7 voicing is moved up a
minor third to a Bb7 alteration. If he wanted to he could continue going up
in minor thirds that way. What he did intuitivly is right on the money.
Charlie
"Charlie Robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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viewed
as a G7b9 then by using symmetrical harmony the G7 voicing is moved up
a
minor third to a Bb7 alteration. If he wanted to he could continue
going up
in minor thirds that way. What he did intuitivly is right on the money.
I thought so too. If you look at all the dim majors from Ab each way,
they all spell out good sounding upper structure of the E7 chord, or a
G7 chord. I use that kind of symmetric harmony all the time, and I owe
a nod to Jay Carlson for putting it in the forefront of my thinking.
I haven't played Blackbird in a hell of a long time, but if I recall,
the B player I worked with when doing it used pretty much what you
wrote. If I remember, there's a really good one with Trane for
reference- is it Miles? don't remember.
BTW, on another thread, congrats on dealing with Lush Life during that
episode. I do that in Db and usually just play the head because it's so
long and I usually have to review it if I'm going to do it and will
probably still screw something up. I've never tried to transpose it,
and doing it on the fly with a singer and making music is one HELL of
an accomplishment.
Clif
Charlie Robinson
D7, Ab-7 Db-7 progression for so long that I'd forgotten about the original
change.The version that I like the best is the one Miles did on his "Round
About Midnight Album".
Charlie
<juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Joey Goldstein
Most textbooks dealing with chord-scales would say that the Abdim7 would
take the 7th mode of A harm min. So this chord is very much like
E7b9/G#, exccept that it doesn't resolve the way an E7 chord is expected
to resolve. And then there's that G nat in the mel.
E7#9 or 5th/7th mode of a harm min plus the note G nat.
In that tone set the only chromatic notes, in the key of F major, are G#
and B nat.
Everything else is in the F scale too.
E7
b9 #9 X b13
E F G G# A B C D E
Chr Chr
G#dim7
X X? b13 maj7
G# A B C D E F G G#
Chr Chr
X = an avoid note
[Avoid notes are tones that clash vertically with a chord tone when
played *above* that chord tone. In a scale array, avoid notes are always
situated a 1/2 step *above* a chord tone but not all notes situated like
this are avoid notes.
The main exception is b9 on dom7b9 chords which is a 1/2 step above the root.
Also on dom7 chords, b13 is usually acceptable even though it sit's a
1/2 step or a b9 above the chord's 5th. But most players will omit the
5th from their voicings of dom7b13 chords much of the time.
So, C, if played on G#dim7 is technically an avoid note. But G#dim7 is
so much like E7b9, where C as Tb13 is relatively acceptable. That's why
I have a question mark next to its X.
These issues might also help to explain why Henry heard the unresolved C
nat so prominently in his line.]
#IIdim7 operates exactly like V7/IIIm because the next chord is IIIm.
bIIIdim7 has the same sound but *functions* differently.
Also...
Half dim 7th chords and dim7 chords are chords in which the
constructional root of the chord is not the acoustical root of the
chord. The acoustictal root is usually omitted from the chord voicing.
[Please do a GoogleGroups search on "acoustical roots" with me as the
author if you don't know what I'm talking about.]
The acoustical root of G#m7b5 is E, because the overtone series of a
fundamental tone E contains all the tones of G#m7b5 and this is the only
tone whose overtone series contains that chord.
G#m7b5 is found in the 5th 6th 7th and 9th partials of the overtone
series for E.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
E E B E G# B D E F#
Dim7 chords, especially in the 12 tone equal temperament tuning system,
have the potential for 4 separate acoustical roots. But one of the tones
in the chord has to be heard as a distorted partial.
I.e. the partial numbers in dim7 chords are:
5 6 7 9* ("*" indicates a distorted partial.)
And any one of the 4 notes in a dim7 chord might be heard as the
constructional root, i.e. the 5th partial.
Very often the lowest note of the dim7 chord's voicing, especially if in
the bass range, will be heard, acoustically, as the constructional root,
the 5th partial.
I.e. When we hear G#dim7 with a low G# in the bass, acoustically it's
going to lean towards sounding like E7b9/G#.
--
Joey Goldstein
Charlie Robinson wrote:
>
> The original change is Abdim.
> Abdim is closely related to G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Henry's original analysis is correct then. His first voicing can be viewed
> as a G7b9 then by using symmetrical harmony the G7 voicing is moved up a
> minor third to a Bb7 alteration. If he wanted to he could continue going up
> in minor thirds that way. What he did intuitivly is right on the money.
Yes and no, but mostly yes.
Enharmonically Abdim7/G#dim7 is also Bdim7, Ddim7 and Fdim7.
The acoustical root of G#dim7 (see my other post) is E. So a properly
labeled G#dim7 is really E7b9/G# acoustically speaking.
The acoustical root of Bdim7 is G. So a properly labeled Bdim7 is really
G7b9/B acoustically speaking.
The acoustical root of Ddim7 is Bb. So a properly labeled Ddim7 is
really Bb7b9/D acoustically speaking.
The acoustical root of Fdim7 is Db. So a properly labeled Fdim7 is
really Db7b9/F acoustically speaking.
So these 4 dominants are all related acoustically but that relationship
is dependant largely on them all being dom7b9 chords, not dom9. When we
start playing Bb9-ish things, like a line based on Bb mixolydian, on
E7b9-G#dim7 we are stretching things a bit, as some of us are wont to do.
So, yes, Henry seems to be hearing this type of relationship.
He might want to experiment with playing Db7-ish stuff too (Abm7-Db9,
Abm7b5-Db7b9, Abm7-Db7b9, Abm7b5-Db9),
or E7-ish stuff (Bm7-E9, Bm7b5-E7b9, Bm7-E7b9, Bm7b5-E9),
or G7-ish stuff, as well as the Bb7-ish stuff he's already doing.
Cross pollinating the IIm chord from one dominant to the other might be
an option worth exploring too. Eg. Abm7-G7b9. Dm7-E7b9. etc.
But you have to be careful with this if you want it to sound "right".
You need to direct your lines back to the strong notes on the real
chord-of-the-moment, Abdim7. If you always treat the 4 dom7 chords as
dom7b9 you will in fact be doing just that. It's significantly more
dangerous when you start treating them as dom9 chords, like Henry is doing.
Charlie Robinson
all of this. By moving the 7th chords in minor thirds (in the same manner
that you would move diminished chords) the possibility of mixolydian modes
both altered and unaltered clashing with the original chord Ab dim arises.
These clashes can be justified in the light of chromatic harmony where
scales other than the one that is usually assigned to a chord quality are
used momentarily. A simple example of this would be playing various Dorian
modes over a D-7 instead of just D Dorian. So the only risk that you are
running when using symmetrical type thinking is that of momentarily drifting
away from the harmony and then returning. As this is now a fairly acceptable
practice in terms of jazz improvisation I don't think that Henry or anyone
else will have to lose any sleep on that account.
Charlie
Charlie
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:42E7BD1F...@nowhere.net...
Rick Stone
> You have answered my question about the chord choice. It seems that all
> Henry has to do now is view things in terms of Abdim (Ab7b9) instead of
G7
> (as you have done). As far as the way it sounds, it is up to him to decide
> if that is what he wants.
No, the "Abo" IS "G7(b9)" (maybe that was what you meant anyway).
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: http://www.rickstone.com
phone: 718.972.1220 cell phone: 917.309.7091
snailmail: Rick Stone, 12 Micieli Place, Brooklyn, NY 11218
Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:
http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Rick Stone
> I guess that I should add that to my ears it is the Maj.7 (G) that sounds
> strange since I hear an Ab dominant 7th. type of harmony there. My Ab7b9
> theory doesn't hold up, Ab dim, equals G7b9. So there might be some
> justification for considering it from the standpoint of G7. G7 b9/Ab to G7
> sus4/Ab might be a good starting point for hearing it that way.
>
> Charlie
No, the chord is "Abo." Why would the G sound strange? It's the melody
note for the whole 6th measure. An Ab7 chord is just plain wrong. It will
clash with the melody, and get a lot of good horn players pissed at you.
Diminished chords have major 7ths all the time. It's very common for the
major 7th to be in the melody as well.
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: http://www.rickstone.com
phone: 718.972.1220 cell phone: 917.309.7091
snailmail: Rick Stone, 12 Micieli Place, Brooklyn, NY 11218
Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:
http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Rick Stone
No, Ab is the tritone of D, but the Ab chord is a diminished NOT a dominant.
D dominant doesn't sound right there.
Charlie Robinson
confusion came in because I had been playing A-7 D7 in the fifth bar and
Ab-7 Db-7 in the 6th and was at that point assuming that we were dealing
with a standard altered A-7 D7 to G-7 type of harmony forgetting about the
implications of the Ab dim. chord. So what I was telling Henry at that point
was wrong unless seen as a Ab Dom7th reharm (tritone)which is a viable
option as Joey pointed out). So you are correct in saying that the Ab dim is
related to G7b9 not Ab7. What we have been discussing now is moving the
seventh chords symmetrically which Henry seems to have done.If you read down
to the end you will see where all of this has led. Sorry for the confusion.
Charlie
"Rick Stone" <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote in message
news:tEQFe.7221$S72.941@trndny06...
juru...@aol.com
the
major 7th to be in the melody as well.
This is not only true, but it's a facet of harmony that's often
overlooked or misinterpreted in this ng. I was hesitant to make the
association with the dim maj at Ab (G/Ab) on this thread because it
once resulted in a lot of heat exchange over not much.
I was pleased to see that Rick didn't overlook it. To me, it's still
in that family of leading tone dominant sounds along with its symmetric
counterparts. Rick correctly pointed out that D as a tritone sub
wouldn't sound right, but of course Db/D is enharmonic.
Really, the dim major is worthy of a good investigative and
contributive thread. I use it as a sub for majors, dominants and
minors. since it's a four note chord, there are a lot, (eight to me
but ymmv) that will sub for any dominant chord. And it's a harmonic
minor chord. cool stuff to stretch your ears with if you're not a
bigtime user.
Clif
RB
Yeah people stuff this diminished thing up all the time. It comes from
viewing a dim chord exclusively as a kind of dominant chord....and
forgetting/
not realizing the chord can function as a chord in its own right..
Truth is there are 2 kinds of dim chords:
1. The kind that functions as a diminished chord
2. the kind that functions as a dominant
I saw that xchange you had with Dave woods on the yahoo group
concerning this.
You were right on, he is way off.......
juru...@aol.com
To me, the diminished chord still echoes what either a dominant or a
major does. I'm not trying to convince anyone else necessarily, but
that's what I hear and like the sound of.
I don't divide them out that way, just to get off topic a bit.
To me, a dim major, like Gb/G can be a sub for a Gmaj7. this makes it
very closely related to Em or even Bm so playing something like Em7
Gb/G Bm G6 in a cycle sounds like you're just moving the same chord
around, or resolving any tension you create.
With a dominant, I hear the dim maj Gb/G being a Gb dominant seventh
chord (or any dominant a minor third or thirds away from there). You
can argue and be correct that the use above could be a dominant, and
I'd say yeah to that too.
The interesting thing to me about a diminished chord is that it seems
to bridge the gap between two related chords, like that Gb/G bridges
Dbm7b5 going to Gb7b9 in a song that has it, like Stella or it can
cycle in and out with Em7 and Bm7 and give you a strong tonic vibe. Or
you can just hang on it and declare it a tonic, and to my ear it is,
and a really good sounding one at that.
As to tonal org, I like to think of the dim maj first as a 6 of
harmonic minor, and the dim7 as 2 4 6 and 7 of harmonic minor, but
that's because I tend to dig that toneset more than some others and can
always relate it to the chord of the moment, whatever and wherever it
may be.
I don't tend to associate diminished chords with the diminished scale,
or not for the first association if I'm reacting to a chord progression
- it's about third after harmonic minor and Barry Harris' octatonic.
It's all sound when you play, so that's probably a pretty negotiable
priority.
Clif
Charlie Robinson
hipper sound) that is common with jazz players on certain tunes.The same
situation always crops up on "Just Friends'. A great many people substitue
Ab-7 Db7 for Ab dim. in fact you can find charts written that way.
Charlie
"RB" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:1122510483.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
RB
functioning as a sub for dominant.*That* function can sound dated.
The dim chord which is functioning
as a diminshed chord is a very hip modern sound which I always credit B
Evans for exploring a lot. Of course duke
was all over this stuff long before that...
Joey Goldstein
A dim7 chord that resolves as if it were an inversion of a dom7b9 chord
*is* the dom7b9 chord and possesses dominant function.
A dim7 chord that does not resolve as if it is a dom7 chord is a dim chord.
#IIdim7 IIIm7 [#IIdim7 is really V7b9/IIIm in 1st inversion.]
bIIIdim7 IIm7 [bIIIdim7 is bIIIdim7, period.]
--
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> IMO
>
> A dim7 chord that resolves as if it were an inversion of a dom7b9 chord
> *is* the dom7b9 chord and possesses dominant function.
>
> A dim7 chord that does not resolve as if it is a dom7 chord is a dim chord.
Of course, the ways that a dom7 can resolve traditionally are varied,
especially when deceptive cadences are taken into consideration.
Charlie Robinson
Charlie
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:42E85E9B...@nowhere.net...
RB
You just reiterated exactly what I have said!!
Charlie Robinson
Of course, the ways that a dom7 can resolve traditionally are varied,
especially when deceptive cadences are taken into consideration.
What this means is that it is possible to view all diminished chords as
having 7th functions.
Charlie
"RB" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:1122526798.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
RB
Charlie Robinson wrote:
> Except for this:
>
> Of course, the ways that a dom7 can resolve traditionally are varied,
> especially when deceptive cadences are taken into consideration.
>
> What this means is that it is possible to view all diminished chords as
> having 7th functions.
Wrong...a diminished chord which is functioning as a diminshed shord
doesn't need to necessarily resolve...Joey was talking about cadential
resolutions which are decptive...the archetype of this would be moving
from chord 5 to chord 6 instead of resolving to the tonic chord...this
has little to do with diminished chords that are func. as dim chords...
Charlie Robinson
7th chord that is functioning within a deceptive or delayed cadence? Even
harder: how do you show that it is not functioning within a false cadence?
Hardest: 7th chords that never resolve as in Wayne Shorter tunes.
Charlie
"RB" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:1122528128....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Joey Goldstein
Charlie Robinson wrote:
>
> Except for this:
>
> Of course, the ways that a dom7 can resolve traditionally are varied,
> especially when deceptive cadences are taken into consideration.
>
> What this means is that it is possible to view all diminished chords as
> having 7th functions.
Well, not exactly. All I'm saying is that sometimes, when we take
deceptive cadences into account, things can get a little blurry.
Certainly, in music that is not trying to blur the lines, i.e. in music
that is reasonably close to classical notions of Tonality, we can see
when a dim chord is functioning as a dominant and when it is not. Most
jazz standards are pretty Tonal. Some modern jazz compositions blur the
lines. Some interpretations of standards by modern players will blur the
lines too.
This is a discussion about harmonic function though and it is not the
same thing as deciding on a chord scale for the dim chord. The scales we
use on #IIdim7 and bIIIdim7 are essentially the same and are the same
scales we might use on V7b9/III, but the function of the chord is
different. Any chord-scale approach to a dim7 chord can also be seen as
a dom7 chord-scale, regardless of the actual harmonic function of the
dim7 chord.
> Charlie
> "RB" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> news:1122526798.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > hi Joey,
> > You just reiterated exactly what I have said!!
> >
--
Joey Goldstein
RB wrote:
>
> Charlie Robinson wrote:
> > Except for this:
> >
> > Of course, the ways that a dom7 can resolve traditionally are varied,
> > especially when deceptive cadences are taken into consideration.
> >
> > What this means is that it is possible to view all diminished chords as
> > having 7th functions.
>
> Wrong...a diminished chord which is functioning as a diminshed shord
> doesn't need to necessarily resolve
In Tonal music it most certainly does need to resolve.
It's just that a non dominant funtion dim7 chord resolves in a different
way from the way it would if it was functioning as an inversion of a
*dominant function* dom7 chord.
Cdim7 C
If Cdim7 could be seen as an inversion of G7 or of Db7 then I'd say that
it was performing with dominant function just like G7. But it can't be
seen that way.
Cdim7 *can* be seen as an inversion of D7b9, F7b9, Ab7b9, or B7b9, but
none of the *traditional* resolutions of those dom7 chords are on a C
chord, even if we take deceptive cadences into account.
The regular cadences for D7b9 would be to a chord with G as root, or in
the case of D7b9 as SubV7 to a chord with C# as root.
[Note: D7b9 is the V7b9 chord in the key of G minor. when it occurs in
the key of G major it is a type of transitional key change into the
parallel minor key.]
As I recall it, there are only a few deceptive cadences that were
*tolerated* in traditional Tonal music. V7 sometimes moved to VIm
instead of I, and sometimes, although less frequently, to IIIm, both of
which are chords with tonic function in the key. When a dom7 moves to a
chord that does not have tonic function, in Tonal (with a capital "T")
music, it is merely a prolongation of its eventual arrival onto a tonic
function chord, otherwise the music isn't really Tonal anymore, at least
not in the classical sense. Eventually, and not too far into the future,
it will move to a tonic function chord.
So the traditional deceptive cadences of D7, in the key of G major,
would be to Em or Bm.
In the key of G minor the single available deceptive cadence of D7b9
would be to Bb.
As a SubV7 in the key of C# or C# minor it would resolve to C#, C#m, A#m
or E#m.
F7 resolves to Bb, Bbm, Gm, Dm, Db, E, Em, C#m, G#m, and G.
Ab7 resolves to the same chords that D7 resolves to.
B7 resolves to the same chords that F7 resolves to.
None of these chords are C chords. I suppose someone could stretch it
and say that C and Em are real closely related, but not me, not in this
case anyways.
Keep in mind also that I'm already stretching the bounds of traditional
Tonality by including tritone subs in all of this. Tritone subs are part
of a modern slang version Tonality. They don't exist in a classical
guy's world view. To him, music that uses these types of things isn't
really Tonal.
Of course this begs for non traditional ways in which chords can move
and resolve. Ultimately Cdim can go anywhere, and so can D7. But there
is a cost to this harmonic freedom in that the texture of the key, the
feeling of a single primary tonic and associated major or minor chord,
can become ambiguous or unclear and then the music becomes a little or a
lot less Tonal.
But in musical styles that seek to keep the key relations obvious and
clear we can always (almost) analyse a dim7 chord as being either an
inversion of a *dominant function* dom7 chord or not.
But the notion that dim7 chords, all of them, are in some way a dom7
chord is sound. Acoustically the dim7 chord *is* a dom7b9 with its root
omitted. In 12 tet it's also 3 other dom7b9 chords with root omitted.
It's a bitch. Dim7 chords in the 12 tet tuning system, IMO, are the
sounds that opened up Western ears to the possibilities of unbridled
chromaticism and free modulation to remote keys.
All I'm talking about is whether it's functioning like a *dominant
function* dom7 chord, or not.
> ...Joey was talking about cadential
> resolutions which are decptive...the archetype of this would be moving
> from chord 5 to chord 6 instead of resolving to the tonic chord...
Yes, the main deceptive cadence of V7 is to VIm rather than to I.
> this
> has little to do with diminished chords that are func. as dim chords...
The availabilty of deceptive cadences, and the modern ways of
freewheeling modulation to remote keys, just make the whole process of a
decent functional analysis of some dim7 chords more ambiguous than others.
Charlie Robinson
than deceptive cadences when trying to determine the function of a
diminished chord and lets not even start thinking about polytonality. But
much of this has been exaggerated by me for the sake of argument. For most
purposes the traditonal functions of the diminished chord are observed in a
jazz context .It's only when you get to the more cutting edge concepts such
as chromatic harmony as practiced by players like Trane and others that
things take on this vagueness.
Charlie
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
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juru...@aol.com
doesn't need to necessarily resolve
A diminished major functioning as a tonic doesn't need to either.
I think this is getting to be like trying to define a 'stool'. We all
know one when we see one, but I've never been able to come up with a
distinction from a chair in a definition. (I was gonna say a stool you
sit on, not poop, but if you're in a nursing home, you'd probably sit
on that too.)
Anyway, what's diminished and what's acting as another chord or chords?
I only know what I think.
Clif
Charlie Robinson
into this therory thing that they keep talking about:)
Charlie
<juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1122574728.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bob r
robins...@comcast.net wrote on 7/28/05 5:48 PM:
> I don't know man, I'm still working on what is a shord and how it figures
> into this therory thing that they keep talking about:)
Hoo boy - when chords function as shords, bad things can happen.
Does too much therory mess up your jarz playing?
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Charlie Robinson
"bob r" <Someo...@whatever.com> wrote in message
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