sus flat 9 chord for II chord
Tim Sprout
Melodic Minor diatonic harmony? This is a R flat9 4 5 7 voicing, rather
than a R flat3 5 flat7 minor seven voicing.
-Tim Sprout
ScotGormley
Great question. I'd love to hear thoughts, generally, on voicings and
uses of this chord.
Also interested to know how many of you folks have worked on Dorian b2
as an independent mode (i.e., not thought of in the derivative sense
of G Melodic Minor for Am7b9).
TD
A: For the same reason that most experienced musicians do.
B: The voicing produced via autoharmonization on the 2nd degree of the
melodic minor scale is a garbage heep and virtually non-functional.
Who uses C-7b9? Yea, I am sure some one hear will jump up and say,
"Hey! I do, I do!!" Harmonize the scale yourself for verification.
Our notation system is not perfect. It has flaws. Most players simply
revoice the 2nd degree yield as C7sus (13/#9/b9). You can come up with
several cool voicings with what I have just stated. I use this voicing
a lot in place of an entire turnaround (as it makes a great pedal
turnaround) or also in conjunction with other voicings as a secondary
dominant or dominant.
-TD
TD
Same reason as morphed into "Phrygian natch 6", if you are into modal
thinking. Makes a cool secondary dominant.
-TD
tom walls
What are the "core" tones that you use for voicing this chord? Or do
you spell out the whole thing?
eric s
Levine likes phrygian sounding stuff. its all through the books
e
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, the "whole thang" lends itself for the keyboarded elephant, but
for mortal me, I like (for C7susb9) bass to soprano: C G Db F Bb (I
often leave Bb out and just utilize the first four to get the job
done, but you can come up with many hybrids for example as slash
chords Db+/C). If you arpeggiate the first the voicing, you can almost
hear the Moors as they rake through the Iberian Peninsula circa 711 to
wreak havoc in the south of Spain. I visited the Alhambra a few years
back, just magnificent! If you take the adjusted staff notation (which
involves a few interesting double stops, minor 2nd and P4, for
example), you can arpeggiate that and it automatically sounds like a
very cool line fragment that may resolve 'exotically' into an Fminor
type voicing. Bass to soprano: C Db F G Bb Eb A down to Ab of the F-7
or up to Bb of the min7sus or F-7b5sus( previously discussed with vim
and vigor). Dig?
-TD
Keith Freeman
> or up to Bb of the min7sus or F-7b5sus
as a ii chord. How are you using the C7susb9, as the VI chord leading to
the Fm ii chord?
You mentioned substituting a whole turnaround with an x7susb9. So which one
would that be in, say, key of Cm?
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
TD
The original poster, the way I saw it, cited the ii min as it would be
autoharmonized ( all math is not musical; all musical is not
necessarily math) within the melodic minor scale. It appears in the
2nd degree, yes, so in that sense it is a "ii chord." Such a ii chord
has a pesky b9. Hence, "min7b9." I was pointing out that it makes an
extremely poor and crude voicing as a ii chord or any chord, in most
opinions. The re-voiced, user friendly, chord works quite well as a
dominant chord aforesaid. C-7 as tonic" G7susb9 as Vsusb9 or V7susb9
into that tonic. Try it.
-TD
TD
"as the VI chord..."
*No*. The name I used was an answer for Scott referring to *adjusted
name* ( originally "dorian b2" and I guess many schools name it that
way), which produces a voicing that sucks) of the 2nd degree of the
melodic minor scale; not referring to susb9 used as a "VI" chord. The
adjusted voicing appears with a *natural 6th* ( and so with that point
of view) and thus becomes "Phrygian Natural 6th." Who's on first,
what's on 2nd? It gets confusing, so I just shut up and play the
chord, me-self.
-TD
tom walls
Yes, I do. Playing that voicing, C G Db F Bb, when I arrive at Db my
guitar starts to tremble with (un)sympathetic vibrations.
tom walls
Imagining the Moors, no doubt.
Keith Freeman
> into that tonic. Try it.
That's a chord I've been trying to pin down recently myself. I was
presented with a chart with a G7susb9 to sight read and found that changing
the A in G7sus(add9) on strings 5-2 to Ab didn't sound great and produced
an awkward grip. I finally realized that Ab lydian (Ab C D G on the top 4
strings) with G in the bass is an easy grip that does the job - the
'Eubanks chord';-}
I also figured out after much arithmetical head-scratching that Fm/G =
Dm7b5/G = F7susb9...
TD
We have to recall the fact that originally ("classical theory"), we
were taught that melodic minor has different ascending and descending
forms. The idea was that sharp 6 and sharp 7 were intended for
melodic ascending lines and flat sixth and seventh were to be for the
descending ones. That idea is dysfunctional, being only functional in
rare cases. For me, this is within the heart of the train wrecked 2nd
degree scene. Jazz musicians morphed the mel min scale into the "jazz
minor", no change in notation when descending. It is a non perfect
system to begin with. The melodic minor mode turns Phyrgian at it's
2nd degree. The sound cannot be denied.
-TD
Keith Freeman
> Dm7b5/G = F7susb9...
Keith Freeman
> minor"
been playing all those devil-music tritones ;-}
Tim Sprout
If I understand your response, autoharmonization to the melodic minor
IIm7 yields traditional chromatic diatonic movement 7-->3 and 3-->1, but
is not functional to reach higher extensions because of the flat9, and
revoicing to sus flat9 adds functionality to reach the higher voicings?
-Tim sprout
rpjazzguitar
Isn't that G7susb9?
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
I speak *just* of the voicing as is. 'Autoharmonization' ( see
Slonimsky defininitions) as I use it is harmonizing each degree of a
given scale with only the notes in that scale.
If you use C-7(b9) as the scale naturally yields, let alone as a chord
change, (lets use the staff, because guitar strings limit us for
discussion purposes) you climb from the first degree as Bbmin/maj7
correct? Plus it's uppper partials, if we wish to go all the way
(13/11/9). And arpeggiated from degree one is: Bb Db F A C Eb G.
*Next*, if we were to follow suit, we get this yield for C-7b9: C Eb G
Bb Db F A. Now, go back and play the first arp and segue directly
into the 2nd arp. This second arp sounds very crude and non-musical as
a ii minor chord. Maybe it won't to a few others here, but it does to
me. The middle of the chord produces a hefty cowboy Eb7, does it not?
Is that supposed to sound and function as a ii minor type change? And
this follows Bb-maj7 in degree? The Db negates C-7. It is a no, no
flat nine. The Db automatically attracts to F ( not to Bbmin, but it
does to F7) as C7b9. It can't be used as Cminor in functional harmony
(can be used with pedalling in modal stuff, though). So, the Db
attracting, needs begging to appear *before* the b3. And so, when you
get into this stuff, you will see and hear that a "sus" sound is
produced because *F* is there in the sauce!! So, it is a sus chord
used as a V7 type chord leading to Fminor or major too.
Most players re-construct the voicing (I have not seen Levine's book,
'cause when I was coming up, the only Levine I knew owned a chain of
pharmacies), but I am curious how he voices the chord and how he
explains the reasoning. The adjusted staff voicing constitutes mixing
quartal with tertian: C Db F G Bb Eb A.
I speak only of the voicing. The function of either voicing is easily
heard as some type of dominant.
-TD (not a theory guy, just a guitar player)
rpjazzguitar
of the b3 -- until I realized that it is better considered as a #9.
C Eb G Bb Db F A.
Just looking at those notes makes me want to rearrange them.
C F G Bb Db Eb A
Now it starts to look like a Csus13b9#9.
That is, I'm starting with C7, then I'm thinking the third has been
altered to become a fourth. The fifth remains. Both alterations of the
9th are present. And the thirteenth is present.
C7susb9 gets the essence of it.
Does this make sense?
Tim Sprout
Thanks for the helpful explanation.
Levine's explanation is that the second mode of the melodic minor is
usually not played over minor 7th chords because the flatted ninth is
dissonant, but it is played over sus flatted ninth chords, which he
voices as R flat9 4 6.
-Tim Sprout
Keith Freeman
Yup!
Keith Freeman
> usually not played over minor 7th chords because the flatted ninth is
> dissonant, but it is played over sus flatted ninth chords, which he
> voices as R flat9 4 6.
Which 6? The b6 (the m3 of the tonic)?
drthoma...@gmail.com
Db F G C is another good one.
Tim Sprout
>> Levine's explanation is that the second mode of the melodic minor is
>> usually not played over minor 7th chords because the flatted ninth is
>> dissonant, but it is played over sus flatted ninth chords, which he
>> voices as R flat9 4 6.
>
> Which 6? The b6 (the m3 of the tonic)?
>
> -Keith
D-sus-b9 = D Eb G B
-Tim Sprout
Keith Freeman
But in what context does he use it? What does he resolve it to?
TD
On target.
-TD
Tim Sprout
>> D-sus-b9 = D Eb G B
> Right, I was forgetting the Levine is using it as a ii chord.
>
> But in what context does he use it? What does he resolve it to?
>
> -Keith
Levine's examples,
Who Can I Turn To: EbMa7-Fm7-Bbsusb9
Dance Cadaverous: Gmaj#5-F#susb9-Em7-Eb7alt-C#half dim
Thanks for pointing out that these are not II V I progressions.
-Tim Sprout
Keith Freeman
> Right, I was forgetting the Levine is using it as a ii chord.
Come to think of it, by replacing the C with B Levine has destroyed its
credibility as any kind of subdominant (ii). What he's got is either an
inversion of a i (CmMA7) or IIIMA#5, or he's transmogrified it into a
dominant.
Clearly, if you want a iim9 in C melodic minor you're going to have to
borrow it from another flavour of minor. Which just proves that C melodic
minor is not a self-contained key. The classical composers already found
out that you have to mix and match from the various minor scales when
writing in a minor key.
rpjazzguitar
He acknowledges that the usual logic suggests a m7 (Dm7, since his
examples are on Cmelmin). But he points out that the b9 in the scale
makes it sound very dissonant.
He states that the second mode is usually played over susb9 chords,
and not m7 chords.
He further states that the important notes in a susb9 chord are the R
b9 4 and 6. He doesn't quite explain this, but implies that most susb9
chords are voiced this way.
That is, he's basing his view on what he hears on various recordings.
When he hears susb9, they usually involve R b9 4 and 6. And when
people improvise over them, he often hears second mode melmin.
So, the theory bends a little bit to accommodate actual practice,
since the usual procedure would predict that we'd be hearing m7b9
chords.
As an aside, if you start with R b3 7 9 (eg. x3143x) and move all the
notes up the melodic minor scale you get 2 4 R b9 (x5354x), which
doesn't sound bad to me.
For the full susb9 sounds (R b3 5 b7 b9), try these.
0 10 9 7 4 x (hard to play, but possible)
x 0 10 9 8 6 (not too bad)
TD
Where is the sus, if you want a "full" susb9 sound? I would displace
b3 with 4 or some how get both in there, if desirable. I rarely use
the 6 (13), but that's a cool sound too. It's fun to come up with many
triad possiblilites from the chord stack yield. Use them as comping
devices, etc.
-TD
ScotGormley
This discussion has been very helpful to me. Thanks to the
contributors.
I seen the dom. 7th connection now--never really thought about it that
way before. So if you run across a m7b9 in a chart, you might think
about it as an altered dominant instead? m7b9 is very uncommon, but
doesn't Dolphin Dance (at least in the Original Real Book) include a
m7b9? Been years since I played that tune, and I don't have the
original Real Book handy, so pardon me if I'm in error.
rpjazzguitar
and mislabled them as susb9 (which is Levine's second mode chord, but
not the same thing if you're building 4 or 5 note tertian chords).
> -TD- Hide quoted text -
rpjazzguitar
By Levine's theory that all chords generated by mel min are the same
chord -- then m7b9 is second mode of a melmin. 7th mode is the same
chord with a different root. So, Dm7b9 and Balt are the same chord. So
is G7#11, by this way of thinking. Also Cminmaj, Ebmaj7#5 and Am7b5.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
We do not call it min7b9, though. We revoice it and call it susb9 or
sus7b9. Stacking in thirds produces a non-functional chord. Do you
know of any tunes that utilize min7b9? Educate me, I would like to
know.
-TD
TD
He uses Bb7susb9.
-TD
rpjazzguitar
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not a one.
I was just trying to think through the "non-functional" chord to
better understand the need for the re-voicing.
ScotGormley
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've found this concept to be very useful (when I can think of it
quickly enough when comping)--generating alt. dom. voicings over B7 by
stacking C melodic minor tones in different variations. (Especially
nice in this key, as there's only one accidental--Eb).
Keith Freeman
> know of any tunes that utilize min7b9?
Keith Freeman
in the melody...
TD
Right, the latter. Although, the symbol above is designated as E-7
(not written as E-7b9), the change would be either Esusb9 or E7 b9 to
cover the half step melodic movement. If the symbol were to ever be
designated as E-7b9, it would still mean Esusb9 for voicing purposes.
-TD
rpjazzguitar
> Right, the latter. Although, the symbol above is designated as E-7
> (not written as E-7b9), the change would be either Esusb9 or E7 b9 to
> cover the half step melodic movement. If the symbol were to ever be
> designated as E-7b9, it would still mean Esusb9 for voicing purposes.
>
> -TD
Tony,
Can you explain this? To my ear it sounds ok without the fourth. The
Em7b9 is one note staying the same and the other three moving a half
step (from the Fm7), so the voice leading works. The chord sounds
dissonant, but it provides a dark quality that sounds good.
TD
If you mean just the plain E-7 (not E-7b9, because it is not the
actual chord change , or i am not sure what you mean precisely) to my
ear too. You can go either way with that. If you wish to address the
F, by "harmonically highlighting" it's presence, do it, but true that
we do not have to. Why? Because, the Eminor is strong as is and the
ear ^remembers* the Eminor sound and ( also recalls the F-7 to Bb7
before) "expects' the resolution in such a short time. The bass is
usually playing root or 7th or 3rd or a strong note to state E-7. The
F's are eight notes in motion. They are not being leaned on. So, you
taste a little garlic, but no where near enough to spoil the taste.
The ear "remembering and anticipating" is a big part in jazz playing,
as we are dealing with an art form that constantly moves ( I
understand this in my line playing after learning as much as I could
and still do from the masters), as opposed to something hanging on a
wall. In the end, if it sounds good, keep it, even if it seems to defy
a rule or two.
-TD
rpjazzguitar
Just to clarify ...
If you voice the Fm7, Ab Eb F (omitting the bass note for the moment)
then voice the Bb7 as Ab D F)-- then the next chord can be voiced G D
F (if ther'es an E in the bass, it's Em7b9 -- and it's not a susb9
because there's no fourth) and the next chord can be voiced G C# F.
This works with a bass line of F, F, E, Eb or F F E A. or C Bb E Eb or
C Bb E A.
In any of those cases the Em7b9 sounds good. It works with the moving
voices, it keeps the F pedal on top, and it adds a nice touch of
color.
Or how about
xx6868
xx6768
xx5767 (with E in the bass -- It looks like a cowboy G7 over E)
xx5667
Keith Freeman
it's Em7b
melody-style I either play the Em very briefly before the FEFE or omit it
altogether.
rpjazzguitar
I usually play it /Fm9 /Bbsus13/ E*, E7b9#5/ A7b9b13/
Where E* is E D G# C# F (could be called E7b9add6 since there's no 9)
(followed by E D G# C F)
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Context, my dear Watson, context...
First off, I would not call your first chord and F-7. It is a tone
collection that contains some features of F-7, but there is no fifth
and Ab is in the bass. And since you have it falling into Bb7 ( 3rd
inversion) triad with no root, it is a type of Bb7sus chord (F being
the 5th, which in this case is the real deciding factor of what root
harmonically prevails, and Ab being the 7th and you see the sus, the
Eb and you hear the sus sound when you strum the chord). The next
chord is a poor cowboy chord, G7 (no 3rd) and over E bass, makes a
slash chord ( other more academic minded players here will come up
with myriad hybrids for this, but no way would I call this E-7 b9
( you can, if you wish). There is no fifth. Therefore, I would not
call it Esusb9 either.
Whenever there is no 5th in a given chord (since you are begging to
call it E-7b9) it is not a chord, it is a tone collection, meaning it
can represent or stand in for a variety of chords. And you have some
distance between the open E string and G. Whenever you have this
distance, it is best recognized as a type of slash chord. For example,
G7/E. It is closer to G7, which is this case has a diminished type
relation with E7 ( and Bb7, Db7) and you hear this. And here is
another chord that the 5th defines the chord more than the bass note.
D of G and F of G over E bass. You are using it as a pedal into the
next tone collection, which all the more shows me that E is a pedal
and not necessarily a root note. All bass notes are bullies, in a
sense, and beg to be roots. This does not make them roots.
Your next tone collection, having E as pedal, also shows no 5th in the
world of E. Therefore, it is another tone collection dependent upon
context and function. It sounds like Bb-6 or G-7b5 over E pedal. It
sounds like G7 to Bb-7 underneath it all and wanting to resolve to A-7
or Amaj7. It may also sound like it can be used as secondary dominant
into A7 and resolve into D-7, but I still hear it more towards
Esusb9( though I probably would not call it that either) and not
minor. You can call it E-7b9, but I won't and I would be throwing my
band mates a curve-ball if I did. That is my view, though. After
"fiddling" with your G7 and G-7b5 , all with E pedal and your voicings
came up with resolving to Dmaj6/9 via Ebmaj7/Bb as: G7/E G-7b5/E/ to
Ebmaj7/Bb G-7b5sus/ to Dmaj6/9 ( C# in soprano) // It also makes an
interesting back-door cadence, assuming the last chord is G-7b5/E
resolving to Fmaj7 type chord as: G7/E to G-7b5/E to Gb13 (one bar)
into Fmaj7//:
-TD (This time me own eyes are glassy)
rpjazzguitar
followed all of it. And, I apologize for the rambling nature of my
posts on this issue.
Also, I hope my earlier post was clear that I wasn't suggesting an Ab
in the bass. I was omitting the bass notes while discussing how to
voice the remaining portion of the chord.
So, that Ab Eb F would be an Fm7 in the case (presented underneath in
the earlier post) where the C was played in the bass.
Otherwise, if there is a bassline of F F E A or F F E Eb, it is a
fragment of an Fm7, designed (to my ear) to give the essense of it,
although it clearly doesn't sound the same as xx6431 which gets the
fifth in there. (or Lenny style with the fifth played as an octave
harmonic of the low E string C note). It could certainly be seen as a
Bb7sus, particularly if the bass note was Bb, which was one
suggestion, although not my first choice.
As far as calling that third agglomeration an Em7b9, I certainly don't
insist on it. In reading chord symbols, the slash chord might be
easier. In thinking chord/scale relationship, in my usual uneducated
way, Esusb9 or Em7b9 tell me to think in second mode Dmelmin (whereas
G13/E would probably have me in Gmix). The difference is the C vs C#
and I like the C# better as a matter of taste. Come to think of it,
would my comping be better with a C# rather than a C? As a practical
matter, I wouldn't be thinking about it either way in this case, so
this is just shooting the breeze. In fact, in the usual chords I comp
(earlier post) I move that voice from C# to C anyway.
I wasn't thinking pedal E for any of it. btw. Sorry if that wasn't
clear. I just wrote out the bass lines I was thinking about
separately.
Again, I appreciate the response. I'm learning something.
Rick
> -TD (This time me own eyes are glassy)- Hide quoted text -
Rick Stone
> G7/E. It is closer to G7, which is this case has a diminished type
> relation with E7 ( and Bb7, Db7) and you hear this. And here is
Yeah Tony. I can't even believe this discussion is still going on. Flat
9 is not a tension on anything but dominant type chords as far as I ever
knew. Not on minors, majors or diminished.
And I keep thinking when I look at this discussion that it's a G7 over E
(and probably a kind of poor choice since when I play this chord it
makes my skin crawl :-)
To understand the chord Mark Levine talks about in relation to Phrygian,
you need to understand that HE voices the chord like this:
F A B E (he's employing 9 for 1 and 13 for 5 substitutions) and playing
THAT voicing over an E in the bass using it as a dominant substitution.
And YES you improvise over this thing the same way you would play on a
G7, all the same chromatic rules apply and it resolves to A.
Really simple. How do you guys have time for this, don't you practice? :-)
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
EPK: http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Joey Goldstein
> Why does Levine use a sus flat 9 for the II chord in his discussion of
> Melodic Minor diatonic harmony? This is a R flat9 4 5 7 voicing, rather
> than a R flat3 5 flat7 minor seven voicing.
>
> -Tim Sprout
"Levine's explanation is that the second mode of the melodic minor is
usually not played over minor 7th chords because the flatted ninth is
dissonant, but it is played over sus flatted ninth chords, which he
voices as R flat9 4 6."
Why did you start this thread when you already knew the answer?
lol
The way I learned about harmonizing the melodic minor scale and about
usage of its modes for improvising was like this:
First we build a tertian chord on each degree of the scale just like we
do when we're building the diatonic chords derived from the major scale.
[Forget for the moment that the tertian chords derived this way from the
melodic minor scale have vastly different uses and vastly different
harmonic functions from the tertian chords built from the major scale.]
Then we look at the various intervallic relationships that each note of
the scale happen to have with the tertian chord.
There are 3 different classes of notes when viewed from this perspective.
1. Chord tones - Chord tones are, by definition, harmonic. By
definition, a chord tone does not cry out for resolution on the chord
being sounded.
2. Extensions - Extensions are non-chord-tones that are harmonic when
added above the 7th of the chord. So, extensions can really be treated
in many ways as if they too are chord tones in that they don't call out
for any type of a resolution on the chord being examined.
[The 7th itself can be seen as a type of an extension added above the
5th of the chord, since most Tonal harmony is really based on triadic
progression.]
3. Avoid Notes - Avoid notes (perhaps an unfortunate term, but one we
are stuck with nonetheless) are non-chord-tones that are inharmonic,
i.e. they don't blend in with the rest of the chord, when added above
the chord tones.
Avoid Notes invariably form a b9 or b2 interval with a chord tone that
is voiced below it.
There are exceptions to this almost universal avoidance of the b2 and b9
intervals within a chord, the most common being the b9 within a dom7b9
chord. But generally speaking, any note that sits a b2 or a b9 above a
chord tone will have a marked tendency to resolve downward by 1/2 step
to that chord tone.
[There is another class of "avoid-note" that does not form a b9 but that
happens to alter the harmonic function of the chord. Eg. Some texts will
treat the maj 13th extension on IIm7 as an avoid note because it changes
the chord's harmonic function from Subdominant to Dominant. But I won't
be getting into this just now.]
4. Conditional Avoid Notes (my own term) - Conditional avoid notes are
chord-tones or extensions that form b2 or b9 intervals with another
chord tone or extension situated below it. Eg. The root of a maj 7th
chord creates a b2 or b9 with the maj 7th odf the chord if the root is
sounded above the 7th. In this case the root itself will have tendency
to resolve down by 1/2 step into the 7th.
Etc.
One of the attractions for jazz players of the melodic minor scale's
diatonic 7th chords and its potential chord-scale-relationships is that
most of the chord-scale-relationships have no avoid notes. This enables
a player to not have to worry about resolving any of the notes in the
scale so he can concentrate instead on creating interesting intervallic
designs against the chord in question.
But not every melodic minor chord-scale-relationship fits this description.
Looking at the tertian chord derived from mel min scale degree 1 we get
a min(maj7) chord and the remaining 3 scale tones are available as
extensions on the chord 9, 11 and 13.
C Eb G B D F A
But the root itself may create a conditional avoid note if the the 7th
is sounded below it.
So and even better chord to use, if you're looking for a chord on which
to use the mel min scale, is a min6 chord. Using this scale against this
chord the creation of any avoid note is reduced further.
The only possible clash is with the min 3rd of the chord if the maj 9th
is sounded below it.
Looking at the tertian chord formed above mel min scale degree 2 we get
a min7 chord with extensions b9 11 and 13.
The problem here is that b9 on min7 chords is a dissonance that is
usually heard as requiring resolution.
If we sound this scale against a min7sus4(b9) chord instead, we find a
chord-scale-relationship with no avoid notes.
D F A C Eb G B
1 4 5 b7 b9 #9 13
The reason, as you have said yourself, that Levine talks about this
scale being used on this chord rather than on the tertian min7 chord is
simply because that's the more common usage for this scale.
One thing that bugs me about Levine's discussion of the mel min scale
and its modes is that he acts as if the remaining mel min
chord-scale-relationships don't involve any other avoid notes, but they do.
[Also, this notion that every mel min chord voicing can be exchanged
with any other mel min chord voicing is simply not true. It's almost
true, but not totally true.
It's only true if you limit yourself to the voicings that are
interchangeable and don't utilize any of the possible voicings that
aren't interchangeable.]
The tertian chord from mel min's scale degree b3 is a maj7#5 chord.
The remaining non chord tones within the chord-scale-relationship are 9
#11 and 13.
Eb G B D F A C
1 3 #5 7 9 #11 13
But 13 is an avoid note on this chord because it sits a b9 or b2 above
the chord's #5.
On scale degree 4 we get a dom7(9,#11,13) chord with no avoid notes.
F A C Eb G B D
1 3 5 b7 9 #11 13
On scale degree 5 we get a dom7(9,11,b13) chord.
G B D F A C Eb
1 3 5 b7 9 11 b13
But 11 is usually treated as requiring resolution on dom7 chords because
it clashes with the chord's 3rd. I.e. 11 is an avoid note on dom7 chords.
b13 sits a b9 above the chord's 5th, but b13 is not usually treated as
an avoid note on dom7 chords.
Common practise is to actually omit the P5th on dom7b13 chords making
them essentially dom7#5 chords, enharmonically speaking.
But voicings with both the P5 and the b13 above it are not uncommon either.
[A cool trick is to voice the P5th above the b13 which skirts the whole
avoid note issue.
Eg.
G B Eb F A D
1 3 #5 b7 9 12]
[We might also use this scale on G7sus4, which helps the C and B to
coincide within the same chord.
G C D F A B
1 4 5 b7 9 10
Note that C-B is a mj 7th interval, not a b9.
But on dom7 sus4 chords most of us will hear b13 as being an avoid note.]
On scale degree 6 we get a min7b5(9,11,b13) chord with no avoid notes.
On scale degree 7, if we stick to the tertian chord we get a
min7b5(b9,b11,b13) chord where both b9 and especially b4 are avoid notes.
The more common usage for building a chord on this scale degree is to
use a dom7(alt5) chord.
The possibilities are dom7#5(b9,#9,#11) or dom7b5(b9,#9,b13).
Both chord-scale-relationships have no avoid notes.
Levine's book is very very good in many areas.
But IMO it's also seriously lacking in several areas, as exemplified above.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Rick Stone
> On 11/26/2010 11:26 PM, Tim Sprout wrote:
>> Why does Levine use a sus flat 9 for the II chord in his discussion of
>> Melodic Minor diatonic harmony? This is a R flat9 4 5 7 voicing, rather
>> than a R flat3 5 flat7 minor seven voicing.
Tim,
Just because it's found on the second degree of a Melodic Minor scale,
doesn't mean it should be used as a II chord, nor does it usually follow
a tertian voicing.
The scale is a "Phrygian Natural 6" (I see it described in some books as
a "Dorian b2" but that's just plain stupid, because to my knowledge it's
NEVER used in any way that sounds even remotely "Dorian." That b2 just
trumps everything else). In practice, the scale fits a Phrygian chord
(sus4 b9) as Levine describes, and it's used in situations where you'd
play Phrygian (USUALLY over a DOMINANT 7th, YES a DOMINANT 7th harmony).
The Phrygian Natural 6 has the added advantage of supporting a 13th in
the Sus4 b9 chord, which sounds really nice (I use it in a number of my
tunes).
Tim Sprout
> On 1/25/2011 11:49 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
>> On 11/26/2010 11:26 PM, Tim Sprout wrote:
>>> Why does Levine use a sus flat 9 for the II chord in his discussion of
>>> Melodic Minor diatonic harmony? This is a R flat9 4 5 7 voicing, rather
>>> than a R flat3 5 flat7 minor seven voicing.
>
> Tim,
>
> Just because it's found on the second degree of a Melodic Minor scale,
> doesn't mean it should be used as a II chord, nor does it usually follow
> a tertian voicing.
>
> The scale is a "Phrygian Natural 6" (I see it described in some books as
> a "Dorian b2" but that's just plain stupid, because to my knowledge it's
> NEVER used in any way that sounds even remotely "Dorian." That b2 just
> trumps everything else). In practice, the scale fits a Phrygian chord
> (sus4 b9) as Levine describes, and it's used in situations where you'd
> play Phrygian (USUALLY over a DOMINANT 7th, YES a DOMINANT 7th harmony).
> The Phrygian Natural 6 has the added advantage of supporting a 13th in
> the Sus4 b9 chord, which sounds really nice (I use it in a number of my
> tunes).
Rick and Joey, your responses are very much appreciated. Very helpful.
-Tim Sprout